Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Hostess in Chief: Dolley Madison's Impact on American Society

Episode Date: September 15, 2025

It’s time to meet the woman who set the gold standard for the role of First Lady. With her natural charm and lively spirit, Dolley Madison hosted countless gatherings for Washington’s elite, turning social events into powerful political tools. Through the art of entertaining, she not only shaped the culture of the capital, but also advanced the influence and career of the nation’s fourth president, James Madison. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And here's where it gets interesting. On the evening of March 4, 1809, the city of Washington, D.C. wore an air of festive merriment. People were dressed to the nines and the street lanterns flickered cheerfully. The fourth president of the United States, James Madison, had been sworn in at the Capitol building that afternoon. He wore a new black suit and spoke quietly. But the crowds flocked to a brick home on F Street where 40-year-old Dolly Madison, the new First Lady, warmly welcomed visitors into their home before she dawned a deep velvet gown and a fashionable turban

trimmed with the snow-white feathers from a bird of paradise. She accompanied the president down the street to lo, Long's Hotel, where she had worked for weeks on the details of the evening's gala, and sold 400 tickets to the inaugural ball for $4 each. Valley spent the evening surrounded by admirers. She dined next to diplomats and made lively conversation with members of Congress. She was the perfect hostess, charming, immaculately mannered, and social. Margaret Bayard Smith, who was a well-known, gossip writer, like Washington DC's very own lady Whistledown, wrote about Dolly,

she looked a queen. It would be absolutely impossible for anyone to behave with more perfect propriety than she did. James Madison, on the other hand, described the evening as exhausting and unpleasant. This odd couple dynamic would play out in many ways during their 42-year marriage, and Dolly would go on to achieve fame across the country. She dove into her role as the First Lady with gusto relying on the art of entertainment

to successfully play the game of politics. But Dolly wasn't always the picture of aristocratic sophistication. Dolly Payne was born in North Carolina in the spring of 1768 to John and Mary Payne, a Quaker couple who eventually settled in Virginia when Dolly was young. She was the third of nine children for the pains who were fervent in their faith. Dolly had a strict upbringing and worked alongside her family performing daily chores on their large farm. Although Quakers were among some of the first white people to denounce slavery in the American colonies. Many did have an active role in the slave

trade for a time. While living at their Virginia plantation, the Payne's kept enslaved workers. But as the Quaker opinion around abolition evolved, James Payne emancipated his slaves in 1783 and moved the family to Philadelphia. Dali was 15 when they arrived in the new city. She was young and bright and made friends easily. Dolly had that kind of magnetic personality that everyone is attracted to. She was naturally charismatic and joyful. She was tall with merry blue eyes. She was a head turner. Her niece once said that Dolly was a foe to dullness. When she turned 21, Dolly married John Todd, who was a Philadelphia lawyer and a fellow Quaker. They moved into his family's three-story brick house a few blocks away from her parents, and there they had

two sons. John Payne Todd was born in 1792, and William Isaac Todd was born in 1793. Tragically, in 1793, baby William, her husband John, and her in-laws died from yellow fever. The fever outbreak hit Philadelphia hard that August, and Dolly and her young sons were more moved out of the city to stay safe. But when her mother-in-law died, John Todd stayed in Philadelphia to care for his father. Both men died a short time later, and so did William. Dolly and her little toddler, John, had lost four family members in the span of two short weeks. Grief-stricken and broke, Dolly had to move back in with her mother.

Even though John had left her money in his will, the executor John's brother kept the funds from her. Dolly had to sue him to get what she was rightfully owed. And here's where we meet an unlikely hero in Dolly's story. After Dolly's father died, her mother, Mary, made income by opening up the family home to borders. A man named Aaron Burr, who was a congressman at the time, found lodging there while he worked. The two became friends and he assisted Dolly in the efforts to get the money her husband had left her in his will. Bur had practiced law for several years at that point and offered her legal advice and strategies. Dolly had also crafted her own will around this time,

which was probably very prudent of her in the aftermath of the yellow fever epidemic. In it, She named Erin Burr as the guardian of her surviving child, John, if anything, should happen to her. They shared an interest in John's future education, and part of her will read, The education of my son is to him and to me, the most interesting of all earthly concerns. The will was updated and amended as she aged, but it's a testament to the trust she placed in Burr when she was a young widow. And this isn't where Burr's influence on Dolly's life ends. A year later, he would play her matchmaker. If you haven't figured it out yet,

all roads lead back to Alexander Hamilton and Aaron Burr. Or Andrew Jackson. Their sticky figures are everywhere. Because Philadelphia was still the capital at the time, the members of Congress converged there regularly. James Madison served alongside Burr, and at 43, he was thought to be a confirmed bachelor. But that was only until he saw the beautiful and popular Dolly. It's not known how he convinced his fellow congressman to set up an introduction, but Burr came through for Madison in a big way.

Dolly wrote a quick note to her best friend about the proposed meeting saying, the great little Madison has asked to see me this evening. Unlike many of our founding fathers, James Madison was not a commanding man. He was short and shy. He was stiff and a bit of a wallflower. He'd been sick most of his life and is believed to be the smallest United States president at around 120 pounds. He's not the sort of man who,

who knew how to make a good first impression. In other words. But the vivacious Dolly must have seen him for the brilliant mind he possessed. They were opposites in every sense of the word. Though Madison may not have been the best at in-person interactions, he was a man with a plan. James recruited Dolly's cousin to write to Dolly on his behalf. He oversaw the letter's draft, and maybe it wasn't what swayed Dolly in the end, but it certainly didn't hurt Madison's cause. Here is just one sentence of this letter. Mr. Madison thinks so much of you in the day that he has lost his tongue. At night he dreams of you and starts in his sleep calling on you to relieve his flame,

for he burns to such an excess that he will be shortly consumed. And a few months after their introduction, Dolly accepted James Madison's marriage proposal. Madison, by the way, gifted Dolly with the diamond ring after their engagement and celebration of their impending wedding. This was an uncommon practice at the time. Engagement rings wouldn't really start to become part of the marriage tradition until almost 100 years later at the start of the 20th century. The ring James Madison gave Dolly was rose gold with irregularly cut diamonds set in silver in the center. Dolly wore it her whole life, and it was on her hand when she died 55 years later. With Amex Platinum, access to exclusive Amex pre-sale tickets can score you a spot trackside.

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Joining me are Judge Rachel Juarez and Judge Odette Toelde. And on Hot Bench, we don't just hear cases. We debate. What she's asking for is for the payments that she made on his car. But there's still payments to be made. Correct. And we deliver justice. That is the verdict to the court.

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meant that she was expelled from the Quaker Society of Friends for marrying outside of the faith. But Dolly seemed to take it in stride. In fact, she embraced some of the new freedoms her marriage afforded her. She discarded the plain dress style of Quaker women and enjoyed experimenting with new fashions. And although Dolly was probably not the same caliber

of a reader as Abigail Adams, she was said to like contemporary novels. Dolly and James never had children of their own. James took on the task of raising, young John Todd, and the boy called him Papa. John grew up with the comforts of wealth and a first-class education. It was an education he would squander when he reached adulthood, during which he spent most of his time gambling and drinking. These lifelong habits vexed both Dolly and James greatly. The medicines were a happy couple. There are many dozens of accounts from their family

and friends through the years that report about how the Madisons never shied away from showing each other love and affection. Visitors to both their home at Montpellier in Virginia and later at the White House often noted their playfulness. Once when Dali was First Lady and lived in the White House, she challenged a young girl who was visiting to a foot race. The girl was hesitant, but Dali reassured her saying, Madison and I often run races here. Dali was always a able to put people at ease, and it was a skill she would use to help further her husband's career. With his ideas and her social skills, they were a power couple. Also, interestingly, enough, we have well over a thousand letters written between John and

Abigail Adams, and almost no letters written between Dolly and James Madison. And that is because they rarely left each other's side. If you are always together, you have no reason to write each other, right? Unlike John and Abigail, who spent years apart while he was in Philadelphia or he was in France or he was in England, Dolly and James were inseparable. Though he had meant to retire from politics, James Madison agreed to serve a Secretary of State under Thomas Jefferson in 1801, and the Madison's move to Washington, D.C. And here is where Dolly really began to shine as an expert socializer.

She often escorted the widowed President Jefferson to diplomatic dinners when his daughter Martha was not in the capital. She stepped in as hostess and helped create events that would meet the approval of European politicians who expected to attend lavish, upscale parties. These social engagements were important to the new nation's image abroad, and Dolly understood the political value of a well-thrown shindick. When James Madison was elected as Jefferson's presidential successor in 1808, Dolly got down to business. In addition to planning his successful inaugural ball, she worked with an architect to redecorate and refurnish the public rooms of the White House. in a style that would be considered grand enough to impress foreign diplomats.

She continued her reliance on fashion to make a statement and dressed in luxurious fabrics. Her gown choices were often described as regal. Dolly was showy, but not a show off. However, she did develop a trademark accessory. Hats that were made of. up like fabric turbans were very popular when Dolly was in Washington, and she was rarely seen in public without one. It's common now for a first lady to champion a specific cause or interest, and Dolly Madison was the first, first lady to formally associate herself with a specific public

project. She helped establish a home for young orphaned girls in the capital city. She fundraised and brought on investors. But she also dove in with her own two hands, sewing uniforms for the girls and buying the home a cow so the children would have fresh milk. Dali Madison became a public celebrity. She was often referred to as Lady Madison.

And one of James' political opponents once joked that it wasn't fair that he had to run against two Madisons. Her popularity was not unlike that of Jackie Kavana. And when I say celebrity, I don't just mean that everyone knew of her. Dali was genuinely adored in very visible ways. She had a ship named after her. And remember how I said she enjoyed reading contemporary novels? While Dali was the first lady, she was constantly solicited by authors to help them promote their new books. They knew that if she was reading

it, everyone would want to read it. Not unlike today's influencers. Her image even graced the cover of a popular magazine. James Madison, by comparison, enjoyed a much less popular reputation. He was an unpopular per se, but he was feeling the pressure to act. He had entered office during mounting tensions between the United States and Great Britain. British forces continued to harass American trade ships as well as seize cargo and take American sailors and force them to serve in the Royal Navy. This is called conscription.

A group of Congress members pressed Madison to consider military action, and on June 18, 1812, the United States declared war on Great Britain. The country was wholly unprepared to go to war. The framers of the Constitution were afraid of standing armies. They saw how the rulers of Europe, abused their power by sending the army to do their bidding. They expressly forbid standing armies early in United States history. And this is part of what made the United States so unprepared to fight the war of 1812.

There was no standing army to fight the British. In August of 1814, in retaliation after American troops captured Fort York, which was then the capital of Canada and held by Great Britain, written, 4,000 British troops began closing in on Washington, D.C. James Madison stationed 100 militia men on the front of the White House lawn. It was an act of protection, but also a symbol that he and Dolly intended to fight and not flee. The president then marched to confront the waiting British with about 6,000 troops. Dolly, for her part, stood her ground at the White House.

She planned to keep up appearances by throwing a dinner party. But what's a newspaper reported that the British forces were only a few miles away and had received thousands of reinforcement troops, her invitations went unaccepted. Everyone was getting out while they could. On August 23rd, Dolly began a letter to her sister. Lucy, and told her that she regularly climbed up to the White House roof with a spyglass to scan the horizon, looking to see evidence that the American militiamen had overtaken the British and were on their way home. Her husband sent her two quickly scribbled messages.

The first assured her that the British would easily be defeated, but the second warned her to be ready to flee at a moment's notice. What she didn't know was that instead of a quick victory for her husband and the militia. The British were gaining ground. American troops fled and the British were moving closer to Washington. Dolly could hear the cannons, but she could not see them. She was determined to wait for her husband and even instruct the kitchen staff to begin preparing dinner for her return. Finally, a close friend, Major Charles Carroll, arrived at the White House and convinced Dolly, it was time to leave. She begrudgingly agreed, and as the household prepared to leave,

Dully oversaw the packing of some of the home's valuables like state documents, the china, the silver, and even some of the red velvet drapes that hung in the drawing room. She sent her pet parrot named Polly off to the French consulate in the Octagon house across the city to stay safe. Famously, she ordered the Gilbert Stewart portrait of George Washington, taken down and packaged to take with them for safekeeping. Her enslaved personal attendant, 15-year-old Paul Jennings, helped carry out the task with a French cook and a grounds gardener. But Dolly Shee sat down at her desk to finish a letter to her sister.

She wrote, Our kind friend Mr. Carroll has come to hasten my departure and in a very bad humor with me because I insist. on waiting until the large picture of George Washington is secured, and it requires to be unscrewed from the wall. The process was found too tedious for these perilous moments. I have ordered the frame to be broken and the canvas taken out. It is done, and the precious portrait placed in the hands of two gentlemen from New York for safekeeping. Those who had stayed in the house until the very last minute did finally leave and make it to safety with valuables and

hand. The British pillaged and burned the White House, as well as the United States Capitol and many other public buildings. All of the White House silver in China has since been lost. But the portrait of Washington that Dolly and Jennings saved now safely hangs back in the east room of the White House. It's the only item in the White House that predates the War of 1812. summer's here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with uber eats what do we mean by almost well you can't get a well-groom lawn delivered but you can get a chicken parmesan delivered a cabana that's a no but a banana that's a yes a nice tan sorry nope but a box fan happily yes a day of sunshine no a box of fine wines yes uber eats can definitely get you that get almost almost anything delivered with uber eats order now alcohol and select markets product availability may vary by agency app for details. Oh, hi, buddy.

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Scotia Bank, you're richer than you think. About a day and half after the British began to raise Washington, an intense storm suddenly erupted with high winds and violent thunder and lightning. The weather tempered the fires and drove off the British who retreated to their ships. The raid on the city had ended. When Dolly returned a few days later and saw the damage to Washington, D.C., she was heartbroken that her beloved city had been reduced to ashes. But she was also undeterred. She and James moved into temporary housing at the Octagon House, where Dolly was reunited with Polly the Parrot. It was in the upstairs study of that home that James Madison ratified the Treaty of Ghent that

ended the war in February of 1815. It was also where Dolly entertained for the next several months while the city was rebuilt. There was talk of finding a new city to be the capital of the nation, but Dolly was fervently against the idea. She wanted to prove that Washington could be a symbol of hope and rebirth. And she was right. The country agreed with her. Under Dolly's management, the White House had become a popular national symbol, and Dolly, it's champion. Unfortunately, Dolly did not reoccupy a rebuilt White House. It took three years to make it habitable again, and James Madison's second term ended in 1817. While Dolly wrote of her regret at leaving the bustle of Washington, D.C., she was also eager to enjoy the quieter company of her husband

back in Virginia at Montpellier. There, Dolly and James lived peacefully in their retirement for a number of years. Dolly took care of James when he started to decline in the 1830s. She also managed the household and entertained visitors, her warmth never wavering. When Dolly and James married, James enslaved many people. Enslaved people worked in the White House under the Madisons. And when James Madison died, he was said to have left a substantial amount of money in his estate. But Dolly discovered that her son had squandered much of it.

Because Dolly was destitute, she sold nearly all of the 115 slaves who were living at Montpellier. Because members of Congress loved Dolly Madison so much, they couldn't bear the thought that she was penniless. And so they paid her a sum of $30,000 for Madison's papers. And this helped her live the rest of her life without having to be in squalor. Interestingly enough, Paul Jennings, one of the people who helped save the George Washington painting wrote an autobiography called A Colored Man's Reminiscences of James Madison was published in 1865. Paul Jennings later became a free man and worked at the Department of the Interior. He described what it was like to see the former First Lady living in poverty after James

Madison died. He wrote, Mrs. Madison was a remarkably fine woman. She was beloved by everybody in Washington, white and colored. In the last days of her life, she was in a state of absolute poverty, and I think sometimes suffered for the necessities of life. He then describes how when he was a servant for another man named Mr. Webster, Webster often sent Paul Jennings to her with a market basket full of provisions and told me whenever I saw anything in the house, I thought she was in need of to take care of it. I often did this, Paul Jennings said, and occasionally gave her small sums from my own pocket. A newspaper article in the Albany Patriot appeared in 1848 discussing Mrs. Madison's continued enslavement of people. The title reads,

Mrs. Madison's slaves again. It says, in part, you've readily admitted to your columns my account of the manner in which Mrs. Madison deals with her people called slaves. I have a correction or two which I wish to make. It's difficult to gather and state such facts as I had to deal with in this case with perfect accuracy. Congress paid $30,000 for the Madison manuscripts instead of $20,000, as I have said before. The men sold by Mrs. Madison was the confidential and personal attendant of Mr. Madison for 16 years.

Immediately after the death of her husband, Mrs. Madison promised to set the man free as she knew was the wish and expectation of Mr. Madison. And after she brought him to the city, he worked a year and a half or two years on wages, which she took to the last red cent, leaving him to get his clothes by poor. presence or night work. Thus situated and fearing every day her wants might urge her to sell him to traders. He insisted she should fix the price, which he would contrive to pay whatever he might be. This goes on to describe how James Madison had wanted all of the people he enslaved to be freed upon his death, but Dolly instead sold most of them and continued to enslave a number of them into her old age. This letter that I was just reading to you was published in 1848. In 1849, Dolly Madison sold Paul Jennings to a man named Pollard Webb. And we actually

have records of the bill of sale written in a swoopy cursive. You can see how she did not carry out James Madison's wishes. And it's often regarded by historians as perhaps an act of self-preservation on Dolly's part that she was destitute. Because of her son's actions, he later drank himself to death, by the way. She didn't have another way to earn money as an elderly woman. Dolly moved back to Washington, D.C. in 1844 with her sister Anna, where she spent much of the remainder of her life. She also reestablished herself as an indispensable part of society and politics. She was awarded an honorary seat in Congress, which let her watch congressional debates from the floor. Imagine that today. Imagine today Congress being like, Melania Trump, Jill Biden,

we have an honorary seat for you here. That seems absurd today, right? And she was also the first private citizen to transmit a message via telegraph, which was an honor given her by its inventor Samuel Morse. Some thought the honor should be given to John Tyler, who was president at the time, but he was unpopular, and Dolly was still beloved. Dali's home was frequented by visitors, including the Tyler's and the Polks, and she regularly gave advice to the women on how to master their role as first ladies. Dolly's last public appearance, was on the arm of President James Polk at his last White House reception.

She died in her home in 1849 at the age of 81. Listen tolly, a fascinating woman. Thanks for joining me, and I'll see you soon. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, would you consider sharing or subscribing to this show That helps podcasters out so much.

I'm your host and executive producer, Sharon McBan. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. We'll see you soon.