Here's Where It Gets Interesting - How Setting Boundaries Can Create Peace with Nedra Tawwab

Episode Date: August 9, 2021

In this episode, seasoned relationship therapist and bestselling author Nedra Tawwab graces us with her wisdom and teaches us how to set boundaries and navigate relationships. Nedra explains how we can reclaim ourselves by breaking our people-pleasing tendencies and learning to honor our personal needs, safety and mental wellbeing. Nedra offers a wealth of advice, ranging from specific language we can use when setting and maintaining boundaries to ways we can diffuse heated political arguments with a friend or family member. As well, she discusses how we can reconcile difficult relationships and exit unhealthy ones, all while learning how to be more accepting of others. There’s a whole lot to learn in this episode - let’s dive into the world of setting boundaries! For more information on this episode including all resources and links discussed go to https://www.sharonmcmahon.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Dairy Farmers of Ontario, from our families to your table, everybody milk. Visit milk.org to learn more. Hello, my friends. Welcome. I am pumped to share this conversation with you today. I know firsthand that you are going to get so much out of listening to the wisdom of author and therapist Nedra Tawwab. If you already follow her, you already know how much goodness she is bringing to the table. I sometimes feel like my own Instagram account could just become a Nedra Tawwab repost account. That is how valuable her wisdom is. So if you have ever had trouble navigating anxiety or boundaries when it comes to difficult conversations with people, this is going to be so incredibly

helpful to you. I'm going to stop talking so you can hear the wisdom of Nedra Tawwab. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Hello, how are you? I'm well, how are you? I'm great. Thank you so much for doing this. Tell me about how you got to be doing the work that you're doing.

When did your interest in this topic of boundaries begin? How did you get to be who you are today? 14 years ago, I became a therapist. And very early on, I would say in my internship, my first client was a young adult who wanted to gain some independence from their family and the family was over-involved. So we talked a lot about how to become an adult. And after that, I went on to have many different clients and lots of the things came back to how do we express our needs to other people? And once I started looking at a lot of the issues we were addressing was, how do I help people express their needs to others? It clicked for me that we are doing the work of boundaries. And that is with my work with couples, with people having

work-life balance issues, with anxiety, with family issues, sometimes with depression, issues, sometimes with depression, all sorts of things have come back to how do I help this person express their need? Why do people have so much trouble with this issue? Why does it make us so uncomfortable to say what we need to express what a boundary is and to firmly uphold that boundary? Why is that so hard for us as human beings? So my book is called Set Boundaries, Find Peace, A Guide to Reclaiming Yourself. So let's talk about the reclaiming yourself portion. I think children have impeccable boundaries typically, right? They know what they don't want to eat. They know when they're full. They know so many different things about themselves. They communicate it, right? Adults, sometimes parents and caregivers teach us to reduce our boundaries. They teach us that certain things are not okay to bypass what we feel when we feel full, what we think about people, how we feel about things.

And we take those messages and we continue to process them into adulthood. And we become people who are unable to express what we need or want. Now we have to reteach ourselves that it's okay to have boundaries. It's safe for you to tell this person what you need and want because we're coming from this space of not being able to do it. Kind of get in trouble if you have boundaries. When I was a kid, if you say certain things to an adult, you get in trouble. There's a consequence for telling someone, you know, I don't want to give you a hug or I don't want to go over your house. I don't want to eat your food. Absolutely. Yeah. And so I'm learning if I want to exist. Oh,

I got a people, please. I remember very clearly once my friend's mom made some chocolate cake and she offered me some and I said no no no I don't like chocolate cake well you haven't tried my chocolate cake and I'm like oh here we go again so I'm getting it down with a cup of water and she's like you know how was it and I said you know I really didn't like it and she yeah and I'm like I'm sure you make the best chocolate cake in all of Detroit but it's just not what I like still Still to this day, I don't like chocolate cake. It has nothing to do with the person. It is just something that I don't like. we can respect boundaries because so often we personalize when someone doesn't want to eat something, when they don't want to work on the weekend, when they want us to do this in a relationship, they want us to call before they come, they don't want to go on vacation with us.

All of these things are personal when really it could be, I don't like to sleep in a room with other people, or I like to sleep in on Saturday. All of these things that have nothing to do with you. The process of learning about what your boundaries are, it can be really complicated by what we think people will think about the boundaries. Yes, very much so. It feels more uncomfortable to express a boundary and uphold a boundary. Why would we rather choose other people's feelings than our own?

Do you feel like that is purely socialization, just what we've been taught throughout our entire lives? How can we move past that? To some respect, I think it's healthy for us to be concerned about other people and their happiness, right? That's an important part of being a caring and compassionate person. We take it to the extreme when we consistently value other people over ourselves, when we value other people over our safety, when we value other people over our needs. Sometimes it is okay to be considerate of

other people. If someone asks you to do something on their birthday that you don't typically do, it's like, hey, it's your birthday. Now, would I want to do this next week? Probably not, but I can make an exception because I care about you and I want you to have a good time. So there are times where we can compromise or being situations that we wouldn't necessarily choose that are healthy, just not something we would choose. But there are other times when we are putting ourselves in harm's way, denying needs that we have. And those things are unsafe, uncomfortable, and unfortunate. Because when we make it a habit of caring for people more than we care for ourselves, we really get into a state of being resentful,

being anxious, being depressed. And that's not a space that we can operate in long-term. I want to ask you about something that people ask me maybe a dozen times a day, and I feel like you are probably much better equipped to answer this question than me, much better equipped to answer this question than me, which is how someone should handle a situation where they have a close friend or family member who they feel has maybe gone off the rails from like a political perspective and just wants to talk to them about it all the time. And just wants to get into arguments with them all the time. They make family dinner uncomfortable. They text them unwanted things. They ruin holidays.

They're off in the deep end believing lies about something. This has absolutely ripped apart families. The political differences in this country. It's not anymore about the tax rate should be this. Well, I think it should be this. We're not talking about just some simple policy differences. We're talking about such varied ideologies that it appears as if there is an impasse. People are having their heart broken about this. Like, this is my dad. This is my brother. This is my uncle that I love. What should I do? Yeah. The first thing that we

must recognize is that we cannot change a person's mind. We can influence them. We can give them an alternate perspective, but we have to recognize when we're having a conversation and when we're having an argument. When you get into argument mode with people over their beliefs, they are basically saying, you need to think like me, and you are saying, you need to think like me. And in those situations, we typically don't win. If there is religion, politics, all sorts of issues, we can get into these sort of rhythms of arguments. Like you said, switching topic is one way, but I think not even talking about some things, if you want to maintain a relationship with someone is another one. And I think we have to detach from certain parts of who people are.

If we want the relationship with them, we can choose not to have the relationship. But if we're saying this uncle, this brother, dad, mom, whoever, I want to maintain this relationship. This may be a topic that you don't talk about with them. We don't talk about everything with our families. So there are already topics that you're not talking about. Add this to the list of things that you cannot talk about in a respectful way. We don't talk about all things with all people.

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I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends, and together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind-the-scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It's my girl in the studio! Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests.

And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. And knowing what you can talk about with a person is, it's a boundary. How do we know if it has moved beyond a conversation and into an argument? The feelings around it, that's how you know whether you're conversing or when you're arguing. You know, at some point we have to recognize, oh, this is who this person is. And

we have to decide how we want to show up with them. Do I want to continue to talk about this thing with them? Do I like the arguing? Because sometimes we like arguing. Do I get something from it? Do I feel like this makes me feel like I'm doing something against this cause? I think we can really change people by being changed ourselves, you know, by being the thing that we want them to be. You know, if you want to eat vegetables, eat vegetables and maybe people will jump on. You know, if you want to be a humanitarian, maybe people will come along. But sometimes when we are talking about things and not necessarily demonstrating the goodness of these things we're doing, it is hard for people to understand. Now, with politics, we can say this is something that we do not agree on and we cannot talk about.

Whenever you bring up this topic, I will change the topic or I will leave the space. Going forward, just know this is an off limit topic for us. We could talk about sports. We could talk about fashion. We can talk about furniture. I don't know, but we could talk about a lot of stuff, but politics will not be one of those things. And then when they bring it up, follow through on what you said and do that consistently. And then they will get the message that, oh, I really can't talk about politics. I'll tell you, I'm not a huge news whacker. My idea of news is home and garden. You know, like, when should I put my bulbs out? That's right. When can I harvest this? I like that sort of news. So when those news alerts come up, I'm like, oh, okay.

You know, there are some news that I'm just not interested in. I don't need to know the crime rate daily. It's just not helping my life. Can you give us some language to use when somebody is crossing a boundary? Just going back to that conversation about the uncle at the family holiday or the dad who never stops texting us about how horrible this group or that group or whatever the topic is. Can you give us some language to use about how to set up that boundary? Because sometimes people do not even know the words to say. Please don't send me any articles about blank. When we have family dinner, I would love if we could have some time to share fun stories and do this and do that and less focus on blank. So I think the solution is often, you know,

right there in the problem. So whatever the problem is, think about what would make this situation better, what would improve it for you. And it's not always tolerating more of it. It could be asking someone to stop or asking them to respect the behavioral shift that you're trying to make. But with family, it is possible to have healthy boundaries. There are certain things that we have to start to do, even if we haven't done it before in those relationships. And that's a really challenging part about family is that we have existed in these relationships for so long without boundaries that the idea of putting boundaries in place is like, how can I do this with my mom? How can I do this with my dad? It's the same way that we do it with other people and know that you're right.

They may have a reaction to it, but it doesn't mean that they won't respect your boundary. People are entitled to a reaction. How can we know if a relationship is no longer safe for us to be in? And I don't just mean if you're enduring physical abuse. I mean, that is an obvious bright line. But how can we know if this is never going to improve for my own mental health, I need to step away from this? Can you give us any guidance about that? You know, I am reaching back to my childhood self in that I really operate on trusting my energy. And sometimes I don't have to explain what my energy is, but I know when things don't make me feel good.

I know when I don't want to be around certain people. How do I know? I avoid them. I know. I trust my energy. Like, oh, wow, I might not like this person. Like, I don't even want to go to their thing. You know, that is a real indication

that perhaps we need to evaluate our role in this relationship because we are starting to very naturally detach, to pull back. When we start calling people less, when we stop wanting to see them, when we don't even think to invite them to stuff. You know, these are signs that we are very naturally and organically pulling back. And it could be for the reason of wanting to end this relationship. We do ourselves a huge disservice by forcing ourselves to be in relationship with people who we no longer relate to. What are we doing to ourselves when we're doing that? When we have a friend that every

time we see them, we're just like, oh no. That gut feeling that you get when you see them text you. What are we doing to ourselves by remaining in that relationship? We are honoring our history over our hearts. Because, you know, there is something about, oh, I've known this person for eight years. Like there is something about being able to say that, but deep connection doesn't come with the timeframe. You know, I felt deeply connected to people and I've only known them one year and there's someone I've known for two years and there is no connection. So really thinking about the connection and not the length can help you to understand where you need to be in your relationships. That's a great point too,

to gauge it on the depth of connection that you have versus the amount of time they have been in your life. Let's say we decide that we no longer want to be in relationship with somebody. How can we gracefully detach ourselves from that and should actually gracefully be a goal of ours? How can we mitigate the impact of withdrawing from that relationship? You just mentioned one, withdrawing. I have found that there are some

relationships where we simply stop in, not in a ghosting way, but we do a lot sometimes to maintain relationships we don't want to have. I've noticed sometimes if we just stop what we do, the relationship will be over. If you just stop what we do, the relationship will be over. If you just stop inviting them to the party, they never invite you to their party. So we're done. That's one way. And I think another way is to just gently ease yourself out of the room. It's kind of how you become an adult, right? You just gently ease yourself out of the house. You start, you know, hanging out with your friends more. You just ease yourself out of there. And eventually it's like, oh, she's not a kid anymore.

No, she's not. And so we can certainly ease ourselves out of relationships. People, they're like, how do I tell someone I don't want to be their friend anymore? It's like, do you need to say that to people? What is the purpose of saying it? What are we trying to do here? Right. Are we trying to injure them? Because it could be an injury, right? To say to someone, I don't want to be your friend anymore. It's not you, it's me. It's like, what? Huh? Why would you even say that? I think any friendship that I have, you know, maybe a few friendship that have ended in conversation, but the majority of friendships that have ended just have faded away. Yes. They've just faded away. And family relationships. There are some people I was close to at some point and they just faded away. It's not this, let me have a conversation with

them about how terrible they are, but I really love them. What are we trying to do there? What are we trying to do? And so that conversation is necessary sometimes, particularly when people won't allow you to leave. When people continue to push engagement, you may have to have that conversation. But if it's a situation where you can cut back and cut out, I would say, you know, go that route. And if it's a situation where you can cut back and cut out, I would say,

you know, go that route. And I don't believe in distance. I don't believe in just severing the tie. Sometimes, you know, we could text once a year. I can handle that. I just don't want to see you every Sunday. Yeah. That's a great point too, that sometimes, you know, like when you get that space from somebody, like, sure, I can be around them for two hours a year. That's totally fine. And I don't have to create this nuclear reaction within my family by having this huge sit down of, I don't like you anymore. Right. And goodbye. Do you feel like when people say we need to talk and here are all the things that you're doing wrong. Where is that usually coming from? I want you to change. Yes.

I think you should change according to my viewpoints. Yes. What I've learned is acceptance is a beautiful thing because once I accept someone, this is how they are. I cannot change them. They exist in this way. This is what the situation is. I have a set of choices. Yes. Either I want to be in this relationship with them, you know,

be in it in a little more of a distance manner, or I don't want to be in the relationship with them. So I think there are so many options that I have once I accept them and stop resisting who they are. Sometimes we resist what we see because we don't want people to be that way. We want them to be different. We want them to be better. And I don't believe that I have the power to change people, but I certainly have the power to accept them as they are. And as I accept them, it may determine how I show up in my relationship with them. When does having an argument with somebody cross the line into being abusive? Well, certainly name calling, disparaging remarks, bringing up historical things to

make people look bad. Those are certainly signs that the argument has gone too far. And I think those are, you know, ways that people sort of try to maintain some sort of power and control, but it is not necessary if your point is to grow a situation or to evolve. is to grow a situation or to evolve. Bringing people down will never help you to help them evolve, right? Like you don't have to say mean things to people to get them to change.

And I've seen people take the approach of, I'm going to tell it to them like it is and it doesn't work. It doesn't work. This could be the worst person ever. But if you tell them you're a terrible person, you're not going anywhere with that. No, they're never going to be like, you know what, Nedra? I have heard your words and I agree.

I am terrible. Thank you for letting me know. Let me know how I should change. I'm going to take some notes and I'm going to do what you say. Yeah. Yes. Like that doesn't ever occur. But we try it and we continue to try it and it doesn't go.

I do think it feels good to get that out though. And I think that's why people say it, but they're not going to change. They're really not going to change now. Now their identity is wrapped up in being who they are and you're attacking their identity and they're going to dig into that even deeper. Let's say we have a contentious relationship with, let's say a parent and the parent is constantly, you know, crossing a boundary where we said, listen, I want to talk about that. I'm not interested in talking about politics with you.

We're not going to agree. Thanks anyway. Should we allow our children to spend time with that family member, assuming that there's not other issues like physical abuse, et cetera? You know, I think that's one of those things that's a personal choice. I don't think there's a right or wrong there. It is something for you to decide. And I know that's tough and not answering the question, but that's a value evaluation. And I cannot determine what your values are. There are some people who would say, if someone doesn't have a relationship with me, they will not have a relationship with my kids. There are some people who will say that I think they should continue. And I don't know if

either of those are wrong. It really depends on what feels good for you. I really, I have about 75 more questions, but I, you know, every time I go to your Instagram, I'm like, I am reposting that, you know, like it's literally like paper airplane repost. I know that everybody who is listening to this needs to follow your Instagram account and they need to buy your book because no matter what you're struggling with, there is something that you can learn. There's something you can take away from this book. Tell everybody where to find you so that they can start paper airplaning every single one of your posts, too. I am most present on Instagram daily.

I post something in regards to relationships or mental health. My book, Set Boundaries, Find Peace, is available everywhere that books are sold. I love creating information content for people to have in digestible ways because I think that mental health is stigmatized because we don't understand it. We don't understand that everyone has mental health. We don't understand that anxiety, to some extent, is normal. That most people feel some depression at some point. And we all need tools and strategies.

And unfortunately, therapy services are expensive. But we certainly can have that information in other spaces. So I do make it a part of my value system to be able to provide some information for folks that could be helpful because it is really important. So follow me on Instagram, buy the book. And thank you. Yes, thank you. Her Instagram handle is Nedra Tawwab. You will every day be like, I love that, sharing that one. I truly enjoy following you. So I'm so grateful for your time.

This is incredibly valuable and I am so grateful for your work. You are so welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend?

All of those things help podcasters out so much. I cannot wait to have another mind-blown moment with you next episode. Thanks again for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast.