Here's Where It Gets Interesting - How to Reboot America with Will Hurd

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

In this episode, Sharon talks with Will Hurd, a former CIA officer and member of Congress. Will recently released his book, American Reboot: An Idealist’s Guide to Getting Big Things Done. In it, he details some of the issues he’s seen up close and personal through his careers, and carries with him his mother’s advice: you’re either part of the problem or part of the solution. Will talks about what being part of the solution looks like: appealing to the middle, not to the edges, showing up for people, and learning to inspire and not fear-monger. Will and Sharon also talk about the importance of America retaining its democracy, which may seem like a given, but is dependent on how we uphold the principles that support political involvement and freedoms. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Buy from dysoncanada.ca. With ANC on, performance may vary based on environmental conditions and usage. Accessories sold separately. Interior Chinatown is an all-new series based on the best-selling novel by Charles Yu about a struggling Asian actor who gets a bigger part than he expected when he witnesses a crime in Chinatown. Streaming November 19th only on Disney+. Hello, friends. Welcome. So fun having you here with me today. I am chatting with Will Hurd.

Will Hurd is a former CIA officer and also a former member of Congress. And he has a book that I know you're going to be like, hmm, that sounds like what we need. It's called going to be like, hmm, that sounds like what we need. It's called American Reboot, an idealist guide to getting big things done. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am so excited to be chatting with Will Hurd today. Thank you so much for doing this. Oh my God, I'm so excited to be here. So thanks for having me. Oh, it's truly a pleasure. I read with great interest your new book, American Reboot.

And I know a lot of people in this who are going to be listening to this are going to be like, well, that sounds exactly like what we need. That's why I wrote it. Yeah, sounds exactly like what we need. That's why I wrote it. Yeah. Sounds exactly like what we need. So for people who are not familiar with you, you've been in the CIA and you've also been in Congress, which one is worse? I'm teasing. I'm teasing. Well, it depends. I probably got more surveillance when I was in Congress than I was when I was in the CIA. But I've been fortunate to have some awesome careers. And I thought I was going to be a programmer. That's why I was

studying computer science at Texas A&M. And I remember walking across campus my freshman year in college. And I'm from Texas. I was born and raised in San Antonio. And I had never really been outside of Texas. and I see a sign you know on campus that said take two journalism classes in Mexico City for 425 dollars and I had 450 bucks in my bank account so I go to Mexico and I thought it was cool seeing things I only read about books you know I I fell in love being with another culture you know you go the pyramid of the sun you're like this is amazing and then, wait a minute, we don't even know the names of the people that built that. All right. The Pyramid of the Sun was a name that was given

to it by the Aztecs. And the Aztecs founded a thousand years after it was built. Like seeing these things was so fascinating for me. And I had international studies as a minor. And the first class I took in international studies, I had this former CIA tough guy tell the most amazing stories. And that began my interest in the agency. And so I joined right after undergrad. So at 22, I was a member of the National Clandestine Service of the CIA. and steal secrets. Best job on the planet. Did two years in DC, two years India, two years in Pakistan, two years in New York City, year and a half in Afghanistan, where I managed all of our undercover operations. And in addition to collecting intelligence on threats to our homeland, I had to brief members of Congress. And I probably briefed 200. R's, D's, men, women, offity states. And I was pretty shocked by the caliber of our elected officials. And I tell some of those stories in the book about how I was frustrated. And I felt like these folks were negating the things my friends and I and colleagues and I were putting ourselves

in harm's way and nowhere to do. My mama said, you're the part of the problem, part of the solution. And so I left a job I loved and was good at and moved back to my hometown of San Antonio to run for Congress. And I lost a runoff by 700 votes. I don't have to tell that story anymore. But then I was able to join a consulting firm, help start a cybersecurity company where we basically broke into banks, stole their money and show them how we did it. And then the opportunity came to run and I took it and was in Congress for three terms, six years. That is a very unique resume. Not many people can claim that as their credentials. And so what was it about your life experiences that made you feel like I have a unique perspective that I need to share in this book? Well, the reason I decided to write the book was that I felt like there were what I consider to be a number of generational defining challenges that America was having to deal with,

and that we weren't going to be able to deal with those issues and solve those problems because our politics were getting in the way. And I outlined those kind of five areas in the book. But for me, the thing that changed was when I said, okay, my opinions on these topics haven't always been this. There are about five, six specific things that happened to me that make me change my opinion. I was like, oh, this is the way I can talk about these issues and take the reader on a journey to understand these issues that are impacting and going to impact us in our future. I love that part one is the GOP needs to look like America. And then you have

that divided into several categories, align our actions with our values, show up so you can listen, don't be an a-hole, racist, misogynist, or homophobe, and appeal to the middle, not to the edges. And I think all of those things are obviously worth discussing. But one of the things that I found very refreshing about this, very refreshing about what your book versus what is happening out there in cyberspace is that I feel like Americans are hungry for somebody to just show up and be reasonable. Do you know what I'm saying? Like when you say appeal to the middle, not the edges, Americans are, from my perspective, from what tens of thousands of people tell me, fed up with listening to the partisan infighting,

the name calling, the mugging for TV cameras, fishing for sound bites, saying things that they can't possibly mean, words that don't align with votes. They just want somebody to show up and be like, listen, we got some challenges. Here's some ideas of how we can fix them. Here's what I'm going to do. Here's what I need you to do. Let's work together to make some progress in this country. And that person is hard to come by. Amen, sister. And I agree with everything that you say. And yeah, it is hard to come by. And I saw this firsthand. So I'm a black Republican that represented a 71% Latino district. Nobody thought I had a chance. And then when I won, everyone was like, everybody would herald my demise. right? And I was able

to continue to be consistent and win because I actually showed up to places. That's why that was an important point in that part of the book. So my district, let me set some context, 29 counties, two time zones, 820 miles of the border between Texas and Mexico. It took 10 and a half hours to drive from one part of the district to the other at 80 miles an hour. So if every Republican voted for me, I would still lose. So I had to appeal to independents and Democrats. And what I found when I crisscrossed the district and shut up the places that had never seen an elected official, let alone a Republican, is that whether you were in a deep blue place like El Paso, 92% Latino city, 98% Democrat, or you were in Medina County, 96% Republican, people brought up the exact same issues.

They had the exact same challenges. They had the exact same problems. And guess what? I said the same thing in each one of those places. And they will all be like, okay, you know, I smell what you're cooking. And so I would agree with your premise. 72% of Americans think the country's on the wrong track. And this is a trend that has been increasing over the years. They think it's on the wrong track because there's too many people at many different levels of our society that lack the intellectual consistency, ideological consistency to do the right thing at the right time and to say the things that they're actually doing. And so I would agree with you, Sharon, but look, you're also cutting a path that's unique.

You know, you're thoughtful, you're smart, you ask questions, and you're growing that way, right? You're an example of how that mentality can work and that you don't have to just say crazy things to get clicks. And so I think the public is ready for it. I totally agree. And thank you. Thank you. I also love the title of part two, which is leaders need to inspire and not fear monger. If you look at all of America's most inspirational leaders, the people that majority of Americans would point to as like that person was a great president, or that person was an amazing military general. You look at people like Colin Powell, Abraham Lincoln, JFK, the list goes on. They did not work by getting up and yelling obscenities, making fun of other people,

putting down their opponents. They inspired you to want to follow them. And I would love to hear about like, how can, how can we get back to that in America? Look, I agree with you 100%. And I think I would say maybe in the last 30 years, there's been this, this notion amongst political punditry, that the only way to get things done is, is with one party control, where one party controls the House, the Senate, and the White House. But that's actually the worst way to govern. When you think of any piece of legislation that we know the name of, the Civil Rights Act of 64, the Voting Rights Act of 65, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Clean Water Act, the Every Student Succeeds Act, the First Step Act, all of these things that we know that have been that have stood once

they've passed and have stayed in the law, they were all done, where one party controlled House, a different party controlled the Senate, and then obviously the presidency was in one of those two parties. So that is the best way to pass legislation for things to solve, to stay, and that we're able to grow and evolve. When you have this one party rule that switches every two years, that pendulum, you can't get anything done. And so one of parties are more interested in driving out their current organization, their current makeup, rather than trying to grow and build a larger coalition. And that's where it comes into the opportunities for you to inspire and to grow the party. And both parties have that opportunity right now. And unfortunately, I don't know if either are going to take it. And when you look at structurally our systems, in 2018, the last non-presidential election, the number of contested seats in the House, 34. 34 out of 435, that's 8%. That means 92% were decided in the primary. And the average number of voters in those primaries, in those contested primary,

was only 54,000 people. So that means 26,501 folks are deciding who is 92% of the seats that are elected. And this is similar for state house, state senate, city council, all those things. That becomes 2% of the population. And that's why elected officials are only talking to a very narrow, and some of those are sometimes the most extreme people. And so that is structurally the problem. More people vote in primaries, we'd be better off, but it also requires people that are running for office to inspire that middle to come out to vote and talk about

the things that people care about and go back to making sure your audio and your video match. The things you say, your audio need to match up with the things with your video, the things that you do. That's such a great point that you just made. I'd like to reiterate that, that so many of the seats that are in up for sort of debate, like who will win? We're not sure, up for debate in Congress, are decided by a tiny amount of Americans, tiny, tiny fraction of Americans who are actually the ones who are guiding the rudder of the entire country. There is something super specific and relatively easy you can do, which is show the heck up.

Start showing up sooner. In primaries. In primaries. And voting is not the pinnacle of civic engagement. It's actually the floor. It's easy. And everybody should be doing that. And you should be dragging people with you to make sure you're educating them to go vote because two or 3000 people is a tectonic shift in some of these races.

And that's, and then you're going to get people problem solvers, not bomb throwers. When you broaden the number of people that are actually voting in primaries. I just think that cannot be overstated how important early participation is in the political process. If you want better candidates, you cannot just show up on election day in November and be like, well, I hate all of you. You have to work earlier in the process and give time and money and volunteer and show up to vote in primaries. Sharon, democracy is fragile. It's always has been. Why do we call this thing an experiment? Why do we always say the American experiment? It was an experiment because

when we started, nobody in the rest of the world thought it was going to work, right? And it wasn't until another 60 years that there was another democracy on planet Earth, and that was Switzerland. There are only 14 countries that have been in democracy for more than 100 years. So this is, it's fragile. It's hard. It requires engagement. And that is something that we all need to recognize, because we all assume, because this is the only thing we've ever known, that this is obviously the only thing that will ever happen. That's not true. And so all of these principles about peaceful transfer of power, a majority rule with minority rights, separation of powers, a concentration of power in the hands of the few

is a bad thing. Like all of these principles are actually living principles and we take them for granted sometimes. And that's going to impact us because ultimately I want to make sure this, this century stays the American century. A&W is now serving Pret Organic Coffee and you can get a $1 small coffee, a $2 small latte, or like me, a $1 small coffee and a $2 small latte. Available now until November 24th in Ontario only. Woohoo!

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booking through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. This episode is brought to you by Canon Canada. From street interviews to vlogging or filmmaking, great content gets even better when you're shooting with great gear. That's what Canon's Level Up sales event is all about. With awesome deals on their range of cameras and lenses, you can grab everything you need for that shot or scene you've been dreaming of for less. Whether you're helping that special person take their content up a notch or adding that extra quality to your own shoots, Canon's got you covered. Shop the level up sales event today at canon.ca. Do you think that America retaining its number one hegemonic status is dependent upon America remaining a democracy?

100%. That's a great, great question. That's required because we are in a struggle between democracies and authoritarian government. in a struggle between democracies and authoritarian government. And we're seeing a rise in authoritarian governments. Freedom House, which is an NGO that's been around for, I think, since World War II, does a freedom score. And we're seeing that in most places decrease. I think this is the first time it's decreased. And so, yes, absolutely, we have to retain our status as a democracy, And so, yes, absolutely, we have to retain our status as a democracy because that is what has allowed us to grow. What should we be watching out for when we are selecting a candidate, when we are choosing who to vote for, when we are choosing perhaps who to donate money to or volunteer our time to? What should we be watching out for so we can safeguard against somebody whose goal is to usurp power?

It starts with reading what they say themselves, right? That seems so simple. But oftentimes a candidate's website outlines how they feel about these particular topics. Watch the interviews that they're doing. they feel about these particular topics. Watch the interviews that they're doing. If they're unwilling to sit with your local paper and the editorial board of the local paper, if they're not willing to sit down with them, that's an indication that they're not willing to have their ideas be criticized or questioned, right? And you shouldn't be afraid. Like are folks showing up to town halls and doing those kinds of events? If you're afraid of being questioned, then you're either recognize how weak your own arguments are, or you don't want to, to question yourself, right? It sounds so simple

and it, and it sounds so basic, but it, to that. And it's hard, right? Most people are worried about putting food on the table, a roof over their head, and making sure that the people they love are healthy, happy, and safe. And this requires effort because this is too important. And this is going to impact all three of those issues, your ability to put food on the table, roof over your head, and take care of your family. And so it starts with something that basic. And then when you find people that you like and that you agree with, then, you know, seeing what

they think about some of these individuals, who, what are, who are they talking about and promoting, I think is an, is another way, is another way of doing this. Great point that this is a commonality that all dictators have is they do not want to be questioned about their ideas uh in fact being you know if you're stolid we're going to exile you to siberia maybe we're going to send you to mexico or we'll just kill you right like if you question my ideas bad things are going to happen to you i'm going to go on tv and call your names i'm going to tell everybody not to vote for you that is what that looks like in america we don't send people to siberia here yet but that's what it plays out in in the united

states of america in 2022 look absolutely and and we all know the saying, it's easy to preach to the choir, right? It's easy to go in and talk to people that agree with you. But we can't do that. And people that are unwilling to do that is an indication that they're not interested in that real competition of ideas. And it shows an inflexibility where these questions we're having to answer are super complicated. And some of the questions we've dealt with and grappled with in the past is going to look like a tickle fight compared to some of these questions that we're going to have to deal with around artificial general intelligence or quantum computing or biotech. And these are, you know, even now when we're talking about Ukraine

and decision to use hard power and when not to use it, these are questions that require sober conversation. And if you're unwilling to talk about some of the other things, then how are you going to be in a position to have that conversation that's required to come up with these right solutions? Nobody has all the answers and it requires input from other people on a variety of, if you enter the presidency and you've never been in the military, you are going to require a significant amount of advice from people who know what they're talking about or you should. 100%. Let me give you an example of one day, one morning in Congress. My first meeting was with the goat and sheep herders of America. I had some of the largest goat and sheep herders in my district.

The next meeting was a technology company that has sensor technology around fiber optic cable. This was going to be something they were looking to use for border security, understand what's going back and forth. Then I was preparing for a oversight hearing on the Russian involvement in our elections in 2016. And then we had to make a decision on how we were going to vote on a piece of legislation about whether we should make it illegal to eat cats and dogs. Now, that last one,

it was already illegal to eat cats and dogs. That's a whole nother thing. That was all like before lunch in one day. And so I'm glad my time in the CIA taught me about information and that the credibility of your sources and that, you know, the credibility of your sources, and that you had to get a lot of different perspectives, and a truly understanding a particular point of view a particular issue. And so so being able to collect and get that kind

of feedback, we got to do that on all these issues. But what do I know about healthcare other than getting it? And so if you're making decisions on healthcare, guess what? You need to talk to patients, you need to talk to doctors, you need to talk to hospitals, you need to talk to insurance providers, you can talk to everybody within that industry in order to try to get some perspective because you think you know it all, you're going to make a bad decision. Anybody who thinks they know it all or tries to pretend like they know it all absolutely does not know it all. And in fact is probably more dangerous than somebody who's like, you know, I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not a physician and I am going to have to do some work on that issue. When I talk to kids, I try to hit all the high schools and middle schools in my district. And I always, I'm like, you know, I know what I know. I know what I don't know, but what I don't know, I don't know is the largest of all three categories. And I'm constantly trying to shrink that category of information. I love that. You also talk in your book about one of the pieces of training that you had in the CIA.

I'd love to hear how you think it might relate to politics, which is get off the X. So get off the X. So the second lesson you learn in the farm is get off the X. And what is the farm? The farm is our super secret CIA training facility. I used to say it's a super secret CIA training facility. Now it's on Google Maps. And the second lesson I learned is get off the X. The X is the location where something is going down. And the last place you want to be when something's going down is where it's going down. So move, get away. And I opened the book with this story about how I almost got dragged out of a car and beaten to death and how I wasn't able to follow through on this principle of get off the X.

But I use this as a framework to talk about where we are now, because we're in this period. And as we already said, 72% of Americans in the country is on the wrong track. We don't have to accept that. We don't have to accept where we are right now. We can get off the X and that's what we should do. And so that was that principle that I learned in my days in the CIA that I think is applicable to the situation that we're in now. Can you give us a couple of tips? Obviously, I want people to read this whole book. We don't have time to talk about everything you discuss, but give us an idea of what is something America can do to get off the X? Because I know everybody listening to this is like, well, I agree with that.

I do not like where we currently are. Needs to be better. Right. Well, look, it starts with individuals modeling the behavior that we want to see. If you think social media is toxic and negative, are you being toxic and negative on social media? That's something that's super simple and everybody should be doing. In your daily life, is your audio and video matching? Are you doing those things that is reflective of your values? is reflective of your values. Also, I think when it comes to for your listeners who have some technical skills, are you working with schools to lend your skill set to help the teachers teach that specific topic? The technical explosion that we're going to see in the next 47 years is going to make the last 47 years since the

invention of the personal computer look like we were monkeys in the dirt playing with sticks. And it was like only 40% of high schools in the United States of America are teaching coding. Coding is like the basics and that's going to have an impact on every industry going in the future. So if you have a technical skill, are you working with, whether it's your kids' classes and your kids' school, to loan that level of expertise? Are we figuring out how to separate fact from fiction? One of the things, the Rand Corporation talks about truth decay and about how, and this is something I know is important to you, facts and opinions are starting to be muddled together. And sometimes we're not able to separate that.

Are we participating in that information environment where we're perpetuating a falsehood's lies or misinformation or disinformation? So being thoughtful. And those are just a couple of examples that I would say. And look, for some of your listeners who are in elected office or are senior in businesses, are we doing things to make sure that we're cooperating with our allies when it comes to foreign policy? after being connected with the national security space for 21 years, your friends should love you and your enemies should fear you. Right. And, and that's how our foreign policy should be, should be acted out. It requires us to understand who are our friends and know who our enemies are. Right.

But that's something that we need to see some of more of our elected officials being able to do. What are your thoughts then having worked in national security for so long about the idea that we should have an America first foreign policy, that we should minimize our involvement in NATO, that what is happening overseas is none of our business, and we should care about ourselves? When George Washington said we shouldn't have entangling alliances, my man George Washington was probably right back then. But the world is completely different from that period of time. And this protectionist stance, this isolationist stance is actually America alone, not America first. America first would actually be working with our allies. An organization like NATO. NATO has been responsible for 72 years of peace and prosperity

in Europe. We were able to, by lending a hand to our allies after World War II and rebuilding their economies, created one of the, if not the most important trading partner for the American economy. We were able to sell our goods and services. We were able to buy stuff. And that led to Europe and America producing half of the global GDP. That was a good thing. It's better to have friends. And because guess what, when you have your friends' backs, when they need you, they're going to have your back when they need, when we need them. And 9-11 is a perfect example of that. The only time Article 5 within NATO was used, Article 5 is basically saying an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. The only time it had ever been used. And so these alliances matter because, again, when you look at this notion of this new Cold War with the Chinese government,

the Chinese economy is larger, will be larger than the American economy. The Chinese population is going to always be larger than the American economy. And so the only way that we're going to be able to continue to compete is if we have more friends. And so that's why these engagements matter. Foreign policy is not foreign. We're seeing that right now. We're seeing that with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The fact that food has increased, gas for our cars has increased. People are realizing, hey, what happens, you know, 6,000 miles away has an impact. So foreign policy is not foreign. Oh, and by the way, it's a fraction of the cost to solve a problem before it gets to our borders. And so this is why it's myopic to think that we don't live in an increasingly interconnected world that is only going to become even more interconnected.

And so that's why we need a foreign policy. And guess what? We can do all these things at the same time. We can improve our economy. We can have a strong and robust foreign policy. And it starts with us recognizing America has become an exceptional nation, not because of what we have taken, but because of what we have given. And we use our hard power and our soft power to support an international order that led to the American economy being the envy of the world, and probably the envy of history. And so these are all good things. I want to see it continue, right?

Everybody should want to see this stuff continue. And so that's why I think this notion that America should be protectionist and isolationist is just wrong, because it ultimately is going to hurt us. Interesting point that America first means America alone, and America cannot do it alone. I'm going to add that on. I'm going to add that line. No, 100%. I would love to hear, just as a fun aside, if you got to have one will heard amendment to the constitution, what would it be? Like number 28, it's got your name on it.

Ooh, see, man, like an amendment to the constitution. Wow. I've never been asked that question. And I'm trying to think, I'm going through all the things that I would do. What would be your amendment? What's the shared amendment? because currently the Supreme Court has interpreted the Constitution to give full personhood to corporations. And as a result of corporations having the same First Amendment rights as an individual, we have super PACs and we have incredible amounts of dark money being funneled into our election system, which there is no way you can convince me that the framers of the constitution intended, that they thought, you know, what will be good is if we have anonymous people funneling billions

of dollars into the system. That's a good idea. I promise you, Thomas Jefferson did not think that's a good idea. And so because that's the current interpretation of the constitution, And so because that's the current interpretation of the Constitution, the answer to that having to reveal that. I think that's something that a majority of Americans would agree with. I'm also thinking maybe my amendment has something to do on immigration, because I think we are, immigration is a good thing for our country. It has led to a lot of our growth. If you're born here, you're an American. I think that has led, it's so unique. And that has, I think, led to the fact that we have created a unique experiment

and a unique system of government that is the envy of the world. I think that's something, I think there's something there, but man, it's great question. I don't think you can say that America, I mean, there's no, there's no way to separate out who America is, who and what America is from immigration. There there's no way to be like, well, America would be just as good without the immigrants that have come here. There's no way to say that. I don't, I mean, there's no way to say that, honestly. No, it's impossible. This is why this chapter in my book is the longest. When I talk about immigration and border security and give some examples, some, some people that

folks now would want to say they shouldn't be Americans, but I'm like, man, they have done such, has made such a great contribution to our society. And this is an area that's so important. It's one of the things that frustrated me the most when I was in Congress, and especially because 70% of Democratic primary voters agree with a lot of my ideas on immigration, and 70% of Republican voters, primary voters agree with a lot of these. My ideas on immigration and 70% of Republican voters, primary voters agree, but politicians would rather use this as a political bludgeon against each other rather than solving the issue.

Were you taught growing up, attending school in Texas, that Texas could secede? Were we taught that? No, we shouldn't succeed. We shouldn't succeed. I a proud texan i think i'm my four or five generation texan but no that wasn't that wasn't taught in fourth grade when i was in school i think what was misinterpreted was if texas was its own country it would be like the eighth largest country in the world right right? Like, I think it was

the context of understanding how large the Lone Star State. So maybe, maybe people forgot and misheard the comparison. Yeah. I think you're being very kind to your fellow Texans as you should be yeah no I would also love to hear if somebody reads your book American Reboot what would you love for them to have as a takeaway when they close the book what enduring messages would you like somebody to have that this current trajectory that we're on we don't have to accept that there's a different way of doing things. And this will require all of us to do something maybe we haven't done before, like vote in primaries. And we have to do this reboot now because we are in, we are locked in a struggle that is going to impact our futures. And so, so we have to get these things right now because I want to make sure

that the fact that for the last 247 years, we've been trying, striving towards being a more perfect union and working to improve quality of life for all Americans, but also uplift left lifting humanity. I want to be able to see that trajectory. And, and I hope people, when they finish reading the book, they say, Hey, there's a better way after I don't may not always agree with everything, but there's at least a trajectory that is different from the current one that we're on. Your book is called American Reboot, an idealist guide to getting big things done. Where can people find you online? Well, whatever your favorite social media thing is, it's I'm this at Will Hurd, H-U-R-D.

I also have a website, willbehurd.com, where I put out a newsletter and things every other week, kind of give some different perspective on some of the issues that are happening around the world. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Oh my God, this was so fun. And thanks for what you do.

Really, it's a breath of fresh air and you're proving to people that folks care about thoughtfulness and they care about seriousness. So good on you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor.

Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time. Hey, Torontonians. Recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use and greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment.

Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference, because small actions lead to big change. For more tips on recycling, visit toronto.ca slash recycle right.