Here's Where It Gets Interesting - I Guess I Haven’t Learned That Yet with Shauna Niequist

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

In this episode, Sharon sits down with author Shauna Niequist, who–along with her husband and young sons–moved from their suburban midwestern home to NYC. When her sons expressed discomfort and frustrations with learning a new way of living, Shauna set about softening their mindsets by writing “I guess I haven’t learned that yet” on a sticky note for the whole family to see. The mantra expanded, and Shauna realized that it pertained to both little life skills and larger life goals. When we give ourselves grace to live for a while in the state of uncertainty, we open ourselves up to curiosity, mistakes, possibility, and perseverance. Shauna and Sharon also chat about training ourselves to find delight in our days, what it's like to make writing a full-time job, and the joy of dinner parties. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey friends, thank you so much for being here today. Always love to have you along. And today I'm chatting with Shauna Nequist, who is a beautiful writer. And she has a book that I think you are really going to love hearing about. And the book is called, I guess I haven't learned that yet. And I was like, oh, that is a title I like. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon.

And welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Oh, I'm so excited to have Shana with me today. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. This is such a pleasure. It's been fun reading your books over the years, and I'm excited for you to have another book birthed out into the world. Why don't you tell people a little bit more about what you do, what your work is about? I will absolutely do that. But first I do want to say, I love the

work that you're doing. I love it. I'm totally a fan of it. We are so deeply in need of the conversation that you're having right now, and you're doing it so well with so much wisdom and with humor and in a really creative way. I like, I'm totally a fan and all my friends are fans. Like I, people from all different parts of the country and all different political backgrounds, I think find you as a voice that they can listen to in a time when it's tricky to find that. So I just didn't want to do anything without saying like, thank you so much for the work that you're doing. I'm totally cheering you on. I will now answer the question you asked me to answer. So I am a writer. I've been a writer for more than 15 years. I have a new book coming out that is sort of like the fifth in a series. And I am a lifelong Midwesterner. I grew up outside the suburbs of Chicago and lived in Michigan.

And that's where my extended family is. And then three years ago, my husband and I and our two boys moved to Manhattan, which is a major life change and like a really fun one. And so that's what this new book is all about. Why did you guys decide? You know what? Manhattan's where it's at? Let's pack it up. We got it. Right. So we knew we were going to move away. There were a million things in our lives in Chicago that had ended our relationship to our church. Some of our core friendships,

just like everything. It was one of those seasons where you're like, if I'm paying attention to the signs right now, the time has come for us to make a move. My husband had wanted to move for a long time. I hadn't. So all that to say, we knew we were moving. And then we did like a very kind of Goldilocks thing. Like, is this our new home? Is this our new home? And we did everything from like, we lived in the suburbs of Chicago. It would have felt very natural in some ways to move downtown Chicago. We lived at Seattle and San Francisco and Orange County and Texas and all different places. And we just had like a very conspicuous, like, this is not your place feeling to such an extent that we started thinking like,

is there something wrong with us? Like we're just, we were just so not finding our place. In the meantime, we have some very close friends that we were coming to visit every summer in Manhattan and we loved it. And our kids were friends. We were starting to make all these memories together, but it just never occurred to us. Like who moves to Manhattan in midlife with their children? even seem like an available option to us. And then a friend of ours, we were here visiting the city. We were out to brunch with him and he said, I'm going to tell you something about your life. We were like, okay. And he was like, I think you should move to Manhattan. And I think you should move to this particular neighborhood and this particular building. And I'm going to do everything I can to help make that happen. And that day, a bunch of different things happened throughout the course of that day. And by the time we went to bed that night, that night, we were like, different things happen throughout the course of that day. And by the time we went to bed that night, that night, we were like, Oh, I think we might be moving here. So it just fit the doors

all opened the way we needed them to. We absolutely love it every day. I love that. It's wonderful to love where you live. It really is. Yeah. And Manhattan is a singular place in the world. It is. And it's not for everybody. And people tell us that all the time. It's like, I would never say to you like, oh, I could never live in Minnesota. Right. But people say to me all the time, oh, I could never live in New York. And I'm like, oh, I mean, the good news is you don't have to. That's right. Right. That's right. No one's asking you to, but it's also a weird thing to say to someone who lives there. Yeah. Yeah. I can totally understand loving to live there. I really can. I can. One of the things Manhattan does so

well, obviously is it's indoor spaces. You know, what is, what is so amazing about New York is not, it's not the geography is flat. You know what I mean? It's a flat plan that makes it walkable. not the geography. It's flat. You know what I mean? It's a flat plan that makes it walkable. It's not these incredible vistas of the mountains and the incredible beaches. No, it's not that. It is what is happening inside all of these amazing spaces. And that's not to say there's nothing charming about Central Park or any of the way it looks outdoors, but the good stuff from my experience is what's happening in the restaurants, in the bookshops, in the schools and the theaters. It's the inside spaces that make New York what it truly is. Oh, I totally agree. And I think there are so many fun surprises. I

had a friend in town a couple of weeks ago and I asked her what she wanted to do. I was like, I'm like, I'm all yours. What do you want to do? And she was like, well, I do have, I have a growing fascination with fountain pens. And I was like, okay, okay. Tell me about it. And there is a place in Tribeca called the Fountain Pen Hospital. And it is a large storefront devoted only to the purchasing of and the refurbishing of fountain pens. And what I love about New York is of course, there's a fountain pen hospital. There's like, like you can go, you can deep dive into absolutely anything and find it here. It's so fun for me.

Yes. And as somebody who enjoys learning, enjoys new experiences, there's an endless source of creativity and things to be interested in. It's absolutely true. experiences, there's an endless source of creativity and things to be interested in. It's absolutely true. One of the things that I really wanted to talk to you about is I, first of all, I just absolutely love the title of your book because I resonate with it so much. I'm just like, that is real good, Shana. It's real good. So why don't you tell everybody the title of your

book and really what it means to you? Why did you choose that title? So the title is, I guess I haven't learned that yet. And it came out of a moment. I mean, I feel like most of the things I've learned in my life, you, you do something for your kids and then you realize it's a hundred percent for your own benefit. So I, we had just moved here. Our kids were in the, you know, the real chaos, early stages of moving. They're going from suburban schools where they took buses to city schools in two different neighborhoods and everything's different. They're learning different languages as electives and they're learning different musical instruments and the lifestyle is so different. And the walk is really long for

one of our kids. And they were just getting sort of fatigued and overwhelmed by, by so many new things to learn. And so they started, they had all these questions. Why is this? Why is this? But then they also started asking, like, am I falling behind? Should I be caught up? Should I know this already? Am I failing? Am I dumb? And when they started asking those questions, I was like, hang on, time out. And I wrote on a piece of printer paper with a piece of blue painter tape. And I wrote this phrase and I put it up on our wall and it said, I guess I haven't learned that yet. And I said, listen, all four of us are going to say this phrase every single day. It's a goal to find at

least one area in our life where we can find something that we don't know how to do, or we got wrong, or we can't figure out. And instead of saying, I don't know, I can't know, I can't do it. I'm failing. I guess I haven't learned that yet. I said, you know, because we're not supposed to know we're not lifelong New Yorkers. We're not locals. You haven't been going to the school for five years. We're supposed to be right on the beginning edge of figuring this out. And so every single day we're going to say school for five years. We're supposed to be right on the beginning edge of figuring this out. And so every single day we're going to say to each other, I guess I haven't learned that yet. And I found that the more we used it about the subway, about laundry, about getting your groceries, about school and lockers and walking and all of that stuff. I also started

to realize that it was a very, very useful and freeing phrase to use in making new friends, in my life as a writer, in our marriage, in my life as a parent. What happens inside of us when we say, I don't know, or I'm curious, or someone else might know more than I do, or I'm not an expert on this. It opens up this sort of soft, curious place inside of us. That's where we can learn. That's where we can try new things. That's where we can make mistakes, but it's okay. And we can try again. I totally agree with you. I think, I think it's fantastic to say, I don't know. I don't know that yet. I haven't figured that out yet. I'm still learning about that. I actually really love that phrase because there's so much possibility on the other side of it. I don't know. And because I have no certainty about fill in the blank, everything is a possibility.

And there's so much that I can learn, glean, gain from listening and learning about xyz topic it's been super freeing for me and it's been a great way to connect with other people because i don't know but somebody does you know like we were talking about like i'm not an expert in fountain pens but someone in this city is there are so many people who know so much more than we do and if we have to pretend we know the answers who know so much more than we do. And if we have to pretend, we know the answers. We miss out on an opportunity to learn from someone else's wisdom or body of experience. And so many of my favorite relationships or conversations or connections in the city come from being willing to say, I don't know the answer to this, but I bet you do. Yes. I love that because it, it automatically allows you to make a connection with that other person who then feels seen honored. Like they feel listened to. Everybody loves to be listened to.

Everybody loves to feel like other people are interested in them. And people love to be asked for help. You think, you think I know something you think I can help. You think I have wisdom or expertise to bring to bear in this, in this environment. It's very esteeming. And I think it really creates a meaningful connection. What are some of the things you realized that you have not learned yet? Well, you know, one of the big through lines of my life the last couple of years, but also of the book is until I was, let's say 39, my physical health was just like kind of a given. We joke that like, I kind of eat like a frat guy. I don't take care of my skin. I sleep in my clothes sometimes. Like I'm just not, it's just always been pretty easy for me to like, just get up and go. Like the machine keeps moving

until I turned 39. And then I told a friend, my body has lost its mind. Everything that used to work stopped working. I had some really serious chronic pain and some unexplained medical issues. And I had to figure out how to help myself and advocate for myself and solve these problems and figure this all out in a new city with new insurance. And then during a global pandemic. And so I had to really learn a new set of skills. How do I find the right doctor? How do I talk to the doctor? How do I ask for the things I need when I feel like they're not listening?

How do I advocate for myself? How do I navigate this with insurance? How do I, and it, it gave me so much empathy for people who've been doing that for a long time or for people who are doing it in very urgent, high stakes, life and death situations. It's not an easy system to figure out. And I won't ever be as cavalier with my health as I was before. And so that's something I've had to learn. And I value in a really new way these days.

Tell me if you agree with this or if you have a different perspective, people who are unwilling to just say, I don't know, who think they know everything or present themselves as experts on all topics. It's like, really, you know, about paleontology and orthopedics. Oh, you know what I mean? Oh, interesting. Okay. You know, also haute couture fashion. Fascinating. You know what I mean? We all know somebody like that. I feel like sometimes what is behind being unwilling to admit that you don't know something or it's toxic levels of pride. And I'm curious if you have a different perspective on that, or if you agree with me, what are your thoughts about why people can't say they don't know? You know, I, it'd be interesting to drill down and see if

it's toxic levels of pride or toxic levels of insecurity masquerading as pride. Right. I think of like the, the little boy who wants to be seen as a big man, people being so desperately afraid that if people see what they don't know, all of the, the, whatever that's important to them will go away. And I think pride and insecurity are a lot of times two different sides of the same coin. But I think especially in a lot of different parts in our culture, certainly in government, in academia, in the medical field, there are several different areas where this is true, where being an expert and being known and being certain, I think the religious world, this is true too. Certainty is seen as a

virtue and curiosity or softness or ability to be, see both sides is actually seen as like being weak in some way. And I think some of why I'm really committed to this topic and some of why I love your work so much and the work of people like Adam Grant, there are a handful of people right now, all talking about curiosity, changing your mind, being open, being willing to be wrong, is I don't think we can afford to have another generation of people hold as tightly to certainty as the generation of people who are mostly leading us right now. If we could be a part of a conversation, all of us, about not knowing, changing our minds, asking questions, finding

common ground. I think that might bode well for the set of decisions facing our generation. So true that, you know, when you think about baby boomers, many of whom are, you know, in Congress, et cetera. And again, I'm speaking broad, broadly, broadly, broadly, they were coming of age in a different time in the world during the cold war, during'm speaking broadly, broadly, broadly. They were coming of age in a different time in the world during the Cold War, during World War II, during times when they're really, the world was very much ideologically divided into us versus them, the good guys versus the bad guys. And we don't live in that world. And we actually probably in throughout the entire history of time have rarely lived in that world. And so you can see how being certain would have benefited people.

And, but, but that certainty is not currently serving our culture. Well, I could not agree more. And I think we are seeing the fractures that that certainty has caused. It starts as those little cracks and now the whole thing, you're seeing things are really shifting under the impossible weight of certainty. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It's my girl in the studio!

Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Ladies 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts.

I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about something else that I just really, really love about your work that I really resonate with. And this is the idea of being easily delighted because I just find that such, I just love it so much. Can you tell people more about that? Oh, thank you. I love it too. One of the ways I can kind of gauge my own level of health or groundedness or perspective when I'm at my best, I'm a person who is, has a pretty low bar for what makes me happy for what just like fills me right up or makes me just like totally delighted. Um, at my best, a good novel and being barefoot on the grass and like a really good LaCroix, especially like the first really bubbly sip, like that stuff just makes me so happy.

And I think it's really easy to think everything has to be perfect or everything has to be spectacular, or it has to be all goodness, everything. And I just don't think that exists for almost any of us, almost any of the time there will always be major challenges. There'll be losses, there'll be hard things, there'll be tension points. And so if you're waiting for all of those things to be resolved in order to be a person of joy or delight or celebration, you're going to wait forever. But if you can train yourself over time to be a person who's always on the lookout for beauty or joy or silliness or an opportunity to laugh or play, I think those things make a bigger impact on us than we think the ability to cultivate little moments of joy and delight and hope, even when, and probably, especially when things are very dark, it's an important skill set to

practice. I totally agree that it's a skill that you can learn and get better at. Oh, absolutely. Some people are, you know, have those kinds of natural attractions to finding what's funny, what's joyful and other people have to work harder at it, but it is a skill you can improve. What do you feel like noticing delight or noticing joy or humor or beauty? What has that done for your life? Well, I think it's what keeps you going when you're in a season of tremendous darkness. It reminds you that the darkness may seem all encompassing, but there are always tiny little glimmers of light. The delight, the funny moments, the goodness, the sweetness, it's always there. And it's just a matter of being the kind of person who trains their eyes for them. One of my

favorite writing tips is also one of my favorite like ways of living at the end of every day. When I'm in a writing season, I write down three sense-based memories from the day and I call it, just call them glimpses. So it's the sky looks like this at this moment, or her voice sounded like this, or the tacos tasted like this. It's just remembering really, and using, trying to use all five senses, capturing things just exactly being a notice or getting the details just exactly right. And what I find is when you live that way, you, your writing gets better over time. You notice things when you write three glimpses a day, sometimes it's a little bit hard. Like it's how you get to, and then the third one, you're like, I can't remember pretty soon. You do it

for a couple of weeks and you're like, I have eight. I have 10. I could do this all day. I'm noticing the details of my life all the time. And then the same is true with delight, right? If you decide, if you put a post-it note next to your bed at the end of the day, and you say, I'm going to write three things that brought me delight today. At the beginning, you're like nothing, nothing was delightful.

Everything's terrible. But as you start learning it, as you start getting into it, you're like, Oh, they're everywhere. These moments are everywhere and we can find them everywhere. And it's a matter of training yourself to see them. And I think it's a really worthwhile practice. I totally agree. What are some things that you have noticed as you've been training yourself that you're like, that actually is really delightful. My 10 year old. So when he's at school, I work and my little desk faces out the window. So I looked down into the courtyard where we live and he, um, when he gets home from school, he comes and he stands by the tree and he waits for

me to notice him. So I looked down from the third floor and I see him and he sees me. And then we dance at each other. He does a crazy dance move and I do a crazy dance move and he does a crazy dance move. And it's just a tiny little thing in the middle of our day. But like all my life, I'll remember that little guy standing in the courtyard, just, you know, dancing back and forth with me. I love that moment. I love that. So give me a little bit more about, because this is something my audience is always very

interested in. They always love to hear behind the scenes. Give us some behind the scenes of writing a book because you've written a number of them. And so I bet you have a lot of, you have a lot of behind the scenes, good stuff you can share about what the process is like. I'll give you a couple of behind the scenes. Well, one helpful thing to know, let's say you want to be a writer or you're interested in this, is it's like you have several very distinct jobs and one of them is writing. And that is just how you think it is. It's every cliche. It's wandering around in your pajamas and writing on your laptop and then thinking everything's terrible and threatening to throw your laptop out the window. And it's like lots of alone time. And you're just like very much in your own brain. That's the writing part. I will say there are so many interesting ways to

interact with your team and your editor and you don't, not everybody has to do it one way. So I tend to work really alone for many, many months and then really collaborative right at the end. And I almost never know what order to put my chapters in. I have an editor that I've worked with all the way through for almost 20 years. She is the one who knows how to put it in order. And I don't, and I just trust her a hundred percent, but then you have this totally different job, which is marketing and promotion and talking about the book and standing on stages and going to bookstores and all that stuff. And it is a completely different lifestyle and set of skills than your other one in your pajamas.

And it's really helpful to look at your life as your job as encompassing both of those. Cause I think a lot of authors or writers get like horrified at the fact that they're going to have to do the non-pajama part that they're going to have to do like the bookstore stand on stage stuff. And I will say one thing that's interesting is about writers is that nobody knows who you are and nobody really cares. Like, it's not like a musician or an actor or something. Like I'll meet someone on an airplane and they'll be like, you're a writer. And they're like, have I read anything that you've written? I'm like, surely not. I'm like, I'm not JK Rowling. No, like, of course not.

not. I'm like, I'm not JK Rowling. No, like, of course not. You get to be really cozy and low profile and pajama-y for a while. And then you have to like, just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk for a while. And if you don't know that's part of the job, you're really going to have a hard time with it. And you have to be willing to sign up for both parts. You do. You absolutely do. And both parts are a part of your job. And a lot of people think your publisher is going to do all that stuff. They're going to do all the sales and marketing and everything. And that's not their whole job either. This being doing the promotion part is part of a writer's job and it's tricky, but it's really, really important. People just think that it's like, well, just post on your Insta and then, and then you, that's all, that's all you got to do.

I posted on my Insta as just as I thought I was being so obvious. I thought it was being even like a little like tacky salesy. And I posted a quote from my new book. And then several people said, that sounds amazing. Who wrote that? And I was like, oh, I'm terrible at this. I wrote it. I wrote it. I was like, I thought I was being so over the top overt. And people were like, I love that. Who's the author. I have a friend who is like a business coach.

I have a friend who is like a business coach. And one of the things that she says is once is never, you think that you are going in and being like laying on the hard sell of my book is available for pre-order and comes out on this day. And then you're like, Oh, cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe. Please don't hate me. And her perspective is you might as well have said it zero times once is never. That is yes. I like that phrase very much. And I fear that it's true. My Insta experience of late would tell you that it's true that I think I'm being just as explicit as possible. And people are like, so what's going on in your life these days? I'm like, Oh, Oh gosh. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Yes. Once is never because only a tiny fraction of people who need to see it will have seen it. And only, even if they saw it, they forgot about it. And even if they saw it and

remembered, then maybe they meant to buy it and did it. Like once that is not. That is a good phrase. I like that one. Yes. People also don't realize what a glacial pace publishing works at. Oh, yes. Glacial.

Especially, I think it's highlighted now by the fact that podcasts can get posted immediately, that Instagram lives are literally live, that so much of the content we consume is very immediate. Even now, like someone will say something about the book and I'll be like, oh yeah, that happened to me three years ago. That thing I wrote about in the book that's just about to come out now. Publishing, it is so slow and so different from most of the content we're consuming right now. Yes. People don't realize that you have to turn in your manuscript a year and a half before it gets to a bookstore. Because it has to go to a printing press. Are we in a Dickens novel? It's so like, it really is about like rollers and paper and boxes. It's like a very old fashioned process. Yes. Yes. One of the things you are very well

known for is you're entertaining having the having over of the guests. I the friendships that you make and form and solidify over the having over of the guests and the feeding of the guests. Are you naturally very extroverted? Yes, I am. I think I am getting less extroverted as I age, but I think it might also be just that our apartment is really small and our kids are home a lot. I am naturally an extrovert. You know, my kids tease me about talking to people in the airport, but I I'm just, I I'm really curious and I I'm curious about people. And so I like to ask questions and, and I do, I really, there's nothing I love more than a dinner party. Like after a really like busy day or a busy week, like what fills me up more than anything is like a great group of people around the table that really, yeah. Are you an introvert or an extrovert? I'm an introvert. I like to plan to have people

over. I do love the planning part. Yeah. But it, it does require a lot more mental gymnastics for me to want to have people over, but I absolutely see, um, the value in it. And it's one of those things where it's like, I'm so glad I did it. Even, even though the anticipation is like, what are some of your best entertaining tips for having the best dinner parties? Well, one of the big things I would say, just like right off the bat is people are so delighted to be together. I mean, especially now more than ever, but that's always been true. People are so honored to be invited to your house. So much of the work that they do that we do in preparing for their arrival, they don't

notice and they don't care. People just want to be together and people don't necessarily want your home to be a perfect showpiece because a, they're afraid they're going to mess it up. B they're afraid you're stressed out and tired getting it that way. And see, it makes people feel better when you have a little mess around the edges, the same way they do. Right. So here's my like basic, like, let's say you're having a house full in one hour, you grab a pack of baby wipes and a laundry basket, and you take your laundry basket and you run around and you just pick up things that would hurt people, or you

don't want them to sit on like just the basics, like, so they can walk through your house. And then the baby wipe is just like wipe a handful of things, the mirror, do a little couple extra minutes in the bathroom, basic chunks of dust. That's it. And then put either a pound of bacon on the stove, or if there are vegetarians or vegans caramelize an onion, even if you don't know what you're going to do with those things, it makes the house smell really delicious. And you can do anything, anything with them once you have, and then make sure that when people come over, there's music on something to eat and something to drink and that you're dressed. That's it. If you come to the door in a towel, that is stressful for everyone, right? If you're going to have an amazing meal, but in seven hours, that's stressful for everyone.

So just like, make sure you're vaguely ready, something tiny to eat, something tiny to drink, and the music's on. Everything else can wait. You can be like, oh, I haven't made the guacamole yet, or I haven't lit the candles yet, or I haven't whatever yet, as long as people can get a drink and like a cashew, they're happy to be there. It's I think one cashew. Yes. You get one and you get one and you get one, but really, I think anything we can do to lower the stress and kind of the performance-y feeling and, and just help us feel like it's natural to have people in our homes. And it's not like, oh my gosh, they're here. It's like, this is a really fun thing that we get to do. And I think anytime we lower the stakes, I would also say if inviting people over feels intimidating,

if the whole big production of it feels intimidating, the first several times you do it, don't cook at all. Just get takeout. Just get used to having people in your space and getting comfortable with, Oh, here's your plate. Here's your silverware. Here's where you can sit. Here's blah, blah, blah. It doesn't always have to be the nth degree. And certainly living in a tiny little apartment. I have, I mean, we get takeout all the time. We do really easy stuff. We have, we do kind of potluck stuff all the time. We very, very, very, very rarely do anything fancy because the value is being together, not being fancy or perfect. That's such a wise advice.

I recently had people over and had all these grand intentions of all the food I was going to make. And then as the afternoon got later and later, I finally just texted them and was like, give me your order at this restaurant. Exactly. Yes. And we, everybody loved their food. Everybody got something they wanted and we, you know, that was, that actually was fantastic because the value is being together. If you had been like, I'm sorry, I can't manage cooking. You can't come over. Right. I've definitely done that, but that's a loss then. Then, you know, people sit at home, people are disconnected. You don't

get to be with the people that you care about. If you're willing to say, Hey, it's takeout or nothing. Let's do takeout. People love that. They love to be connected. Even if it's really imperfect or really casual or really last minute or 100% take out the value is being together. Let's just get some pizzas. We do it every Friday night. That's what we do. We order in a bunch of pizzas. Yep.

Yeah. If somebody wants to invite me over for pizza, I will be there. Like I would rather have pizza than almost anything else. Anyway, same, right? Everybody loves pizza. You're like, oh, you just ordered pizza jack anyway. Same, right? Everybody loves pizza. You're like, oh, you just ordered pizza jackpot. Yeah, correct. I will be there shortly. Yeah. Yes. Pizza is quite frankly the best we think of it is, you know, like, oh, it's so, you know, it's beneath

you. Nope. Nope. It's delicious every time. And everyone likes it. Yep. Yes. I once read this book, um, that was written by somebody who was the editor of like a French cooking magazine and her thing about pizza. She loved pizza. She was like, if you want pizza to feel special, serve it with champagne because champagne is actually fantastic with pizza. That is, I agree with that person. I totally agree. Champagne is my favorite thing in the whole world. And not just like fancy champagne, like $9 sparkling wine. If it has bubbles, it's my favorite. And with pizza, I agree.

Yeah. She was like the carbonation cuts the fat of the pizza. And yeah, I mean, I feel the same way about LaCroix or sparkling water. If if I'm having something really heavy, it drinking it with it, it makes there's something about it. Absolutely. It's why you always want to Coke with Mexican food. Yep. Yes. I totally agree. I'm with you. All right. I've just a couple more questions. Okay. One of the other things I want to know about is because you have so highly prioritized your friendships and people who talk about you talk about what a fantastic friend you are. Were you aware of that by the way? Oh, that's a, I'm like so curious about who that is, but thank you. It's always nice to know that people are saying nice things behind. Oh,

that is nice. Right. Can you give the rest of us some tips on how to be a good friend or how to nurture friendships? Those are great questions. Well, one thing I, I love to point out to people is that friendship takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. Like we talk about when, like if someone's single and they're like, I want to be in a relationship or I want to get married or whatever we it's natural to like prioritize that, right? This is what matters. I'm dating. I'm getting out there.

I'm doing that thing. Friendship also takes a lot of time and we don't always talk about that very clearly. And it doesn't happen overnight. Like a lot of us, I think, think that if you have like a great coffee date with someone, like now we should be all the things. We should have, you know, this amazing friendship. You're probably gonna have to have like 25 coffee dates before it's an amazing friendship. It takes time. You're gonna have to be in each

other's homes. You're going to have to kind of get mad at each other and make up. You're going to have to have some shared experiences. Like it takes time to build those friendships. And a lot of us have lifestyles that don't allow for that time. And I would say, if you're feeling disconnected or like your friendships, aren't where you want them to be. One question to ask is, is, am I putting enough time into a couple of these relationships to allow them to develop into something really meaningful? The other thing I would say is especially women, but all of us as a culture, we're not great at conflict. And a lot of times when we think when a relationship hits a point of conflict, we think the relationship is over. I think when a relationship hits a point of conflict, the relationship is normal, right? Relationships involve conflict.

And so being willing to get things wrong or get your feelings hurt and then talk about it together and repair, that's where really long lasting friendships can start to be born. If it has to be like, as long as we never drive each other crazy, or as long as we never offend each other, or as long as we never disagree, you're going to only have very surfacy friendships, but if you can learn to forgive and be forgiven and repair and apologize, that's where some really life-changing friendships can start to be born. So true that if you, if you're only willing to be friends with perfect circumstances, you will never have a deep, meaningful relationships. Absolutely. All right. If you could have your druthers, if somebody read your whole book, closed it, and they were like, what would you want them to take away from your book?

That is a very good question. So there was a point, this was a really hard book for me to write. And there were several points along the way where I wanted to quit. And I just didn't, it was hard. And I've never come as close to quitting as I did with this one. And what kept me going at a certain point, I don't even know where this conversation came from, but I got it into my mind somehow. I don't, I don't need to be liked. I don't need people to think I'm funny. I don't need them to think I'm smart. I just want this book to be useful. her. And so my editor who I love, who I've worked with forever went through and she knew how deeply I was struggling. And she, we had this whole massive pile of essays and we were trying to figure out which ones go in and which ones don't. And she pointed out what was useful specifically about each one. This is useful for a person who's experienced this. This is meaningful for a person

who's going through this, this will matter to such and such. And she helped me find a sense of like, okay, I'll keep going if it's useful. And so that's the word that I hold in my mind. I don't need somebody to think more highly of me or this or that. I want it to be useful. If someone says like, that was useful in my life or in my marriage or in my parenting or in this difficult part of my whatever, it was useful to me. That's the thing. I love that. That's so good. Well, tell everybody once again, the name of your book, where to find you online, like give everybody all the details so that they can go find your highly useful. Thank you. The book is called, I guess I haven't learned that yet. Discovering new ways of living when the old ways have stopped working and it is available everywhere. It's online. It's in

local bookstores. It's in big stores and little stores, and there's audio versions and ebook versions and special editions at various different stores. And you can find all about it on my Instagram, which is just a sneak list. Thank you so much. This was a delight. I thank you. It was my pleasure to be here. And I, again, really, really love the work that you're doing in the world. And so it's been really a privilege to get to meet you and talk with you a little bit. Thank you. Thanks for doing this. And I can't wait to see where your path takes you next. Thank you. You as well. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon says so podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor,

would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review, or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.