Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Lessons to Save Your Life with Dr. Edith Eger and Dr. Marianne Engle

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

In this episode, Sharon sits down with psychologist and best-selling author, Dr. Edith Eger and her daughter–who is also a psychologist–Dr. Marianne Engle. When Dr. Eger was a young girl, she was a talented gymnast who trained for the Olympic games but was instead imprisoned at Auschwitz. As a survivor, she has written beautiful books full of light and healing. Dr. Eger advocates that we don’t ask “Why me?” but rather, “What now?”, which is a question that promotes action and an openness to change and possibility. Both Dr. Eger and Dr. Engle remind us that you can’t heal what you don’t feel; acknowledging our stories is a step toward freedom. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Buy from dysoncanada.ca. With ANC on, performance may vary based on environmental conditions and usage. Accessories sold separately. Interior Chinatown is an all-new series based on the best-selling novel by Charles Yu about a struggling Asian actor who gets a bigger part than he expected when he witnesses a crime in Chinatown. Streaming November 19th only on Disney+. Hello, friends. Welcome. Always delighted to have you with me. And today I am chatting

with two remarkable women, Doctors Eger and Engel. And Dr. Edith Eger, perhaps you have heard of her before. She's written a number of bestselling books, but she is a Holocaust survivor and she is 94 years old and absolutely just a delight and gem of a human. And her daughter is also a psychologist and has so much to add to this conversation about growing up the child of a Holocaust survivor. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am so delighted to welcome both of you here today. Thank you so much for making time in your lives to do this. There's so much we could discuss. So let's just dive in with a little bit of an introduction into who each of you are in your

story so that you can familiarize listeners with the incredible work that you're doing. I usually say to people that I have a story, but I'm not my story. When people introduce me, I'm a survivor of Auschwitz. I am a human being who went through an experience. It's not my identity. I'm coming to you actually as a 94-year-old who's been around and lived life as fully as she could and how to make something good out of anything, even in the midst of evil, we were able to somehow find within us our inner resources. So it really was not a recovery, but a discovery. And this is what I'm hoping that people can learn under these circumstances, that they still have something that no one ever could rob your spirit. I love that. And you have your beautiful daughter with you today.

Hi, thank you. So my name is Dr. Marianne Engel. If you ever read my mother's first book, The Choice, there's a baby in the book and I'm the baby in the book. And I've grown up. I became a psychologist before my mother did actually, because she went to college while I think I was working on my PhD. And then she went to teach and watching my mother grow has been one of the joys of our family because she's an amazing person in many, many dimensions. And so I have two children. I have five grandsons. I live in both New York City and in La Jolla. I'm licensed in both states. And I have a lovely husband and I work very hard on many things. And one of my joys is doing projects with my mother. Absolutely. Well, I would love to have you give listeners,

Dr. Eger, a little bit more about your experience as a young girl in Hungary and your experience in Auschwitz and what it was like after leaving the death camp. I'm going to tell you that my parents had two beautiful girls and they decided to have a son. And guess what happened? I came along. I became a very highly educated person. I'm Dr. Edith Iwaiga. I think my daughter and I have a very special relationship because if you are a child

of an immigrant, you become parentized. She actually taught me how to speak English. What was it like growing up with a mother who had been through an experience like surviving Auschwitz? You know, that's such a great question because having moved to New York, there are a lot of children of Holocaust survivors there. And I have never been more grateful than I have been there for the way my parents brought me up. And shockingly, I didn't know my mother had been in Auschwitz until I was about 12 years old. I was a reader and I would read everything. I read all the books in the El Paso Public Library for kids and then moved to the adult sections. And my parents were readers too. And so I was looking for books. And in the back of a cabinet, there was this book that was full of these horrendous pictures.

And I took it out and I looked at it and I thought, oh my God, this explains everything. So I went to my father and I said, was mom here? Because I knew she had fears of things. And if she heard a police car, she would panic. And there were things that were just odd and I could never quite understand. And my father is a wonderful, sweet, sweet man, lovely man, took such good care of her. And then suddenly I understood it all. I think a lot of people who grow up with the memories of the Holocaust in their everyday life take on a lot of their parents' pain and

can't get it out of their own psyches. Whereas for me, I mean, I've always felt an incredible appreciation and sadness for what she went through. One of the cute things of my childhood, and so I knew that she was training for the Olympics, although I never quite understood exactly why she didn't get to go because she went to Auschwitz instead, but we would watch the Olympics together. And when we watched the gymnastics, she'd say, oh, look at that move. Well, this is how you do it. Oh, look at that move. And what you can't see is that my mother is very small and I am very tall. I'm 5'9". And so when I was in college, I thought, you know, I'm going to try gymnastics. I'm good at sports. I should be able to do this. Not. I'm really bad at it. So growing up with her, I mean, she just, all my friends will tell you she was the sweetest

mother. They all love to come over and talk to her. My boyfriends used to sit and talk to her. So that was the mother of my childhood. The other thing about her is that she was shy. But the other thing about her is that she was shy. She's not shy now, but she was shy then. And I just thought it was because she was a shy person. Well, it wasn't. It was, I now know, it was because she was afraid that the truth would stumble out and that people wouldn't like her or would somehow she would be. Different. She'd be, yes, different. And she didn't want to

be different, even though with her, the difference is so appealing, but of course she didn't know that. When I was reading the most recent edition of the book that the two of you have worked on together called The Gift. First of all, I absolutely loved it and cannot recommend it highly enough. No matter where you are in life, what you have experienced, you will get something out of this book. I mean, truly from page one, you are hooked into reading more about the story and learning so many of the lessons that you teach throughout the book. One of the things that really struck me when I was reading the beginning of your book was something, a piece of advice that your mother had given you. When you were put on a train and sent to Auschwitz. Your parents were killed. And you remembered in your mind,

these echoes of no one can take from you what you've put in your mind. And that just really struck me. That's exactly what happened. Everything was taken away. And I had my mind. And I had my sister. You say each moment in Auschwitz was hell on earth. It was also my best classroom. Subjected to loss, torture, starvation, and the constant threat of death. I discovered the tools for survival and freedom that I continue to use every day in my clinical psychology practice, as well as in my own life. And you also discuss how when you were liberated from these circumstances, when the Nazis were finally defeated, in some ways you were free, but not in all ways.

Can you talk more about what that has meant to you, what that has meant throughout your life, and how that has informed your work? When I was on Oprah, she asked me the question about liberation. And I told her that I felt someone touching my hand. And I looked up, and I saw a big lip and she got up and said, he was black! Yes, he was black and his eyes were filled with tears and his hand had M&Ms and that that's how I was able to be liberated by the 71st Infantry. And I found a man who was one of the liberators, Elon Musk. And I told him, you know, that we could have gotten together.

And he said, he's in his 90s, he said, I don't know if you would have been my type. And my sister Clara was the only Jewish girl accepted at the music conservatory. And she was already in the camp when her Christian professor smuggled her out and hid her until the end of the war. So we must not forget that the 12 years of Hitlerites doesn't make all Germans Nazis. We have to be very careful not to generalize. Mm-hmm. One of the other things that I just, I like highlighted, underlined, wrote it down, this phrase that you included in your book that said, there's no freedom in minimizing what happened or in trying to forget. And man, if that is not a lesson that all of us can take and hide in our hearts, that anything that has happened to us, there's no freedom in pretending that didn't happen and minimizing its impact.

No freedom in trying to forget about it. Can you talk a little bit more about that? I think you're so correct, and I really admire you, how you dedicate yourself to be the ambassador for people who are trying to get away with lies. And I really want to congratulate you to be so committed. Think today, not why me, but what now? And I live in the present, and I think young, but I'm not young and foolish. And then, of course, what is important, that I went back to Auschwitz to reclaim my innocence, and that I was victimized. I'm not a victim.

I think that's very important. It's not my identity. It's what was done to me. You know, one of the things that I think about the difference in my mother as I grew up is after she went back to Auschwitz, because as you say, you know, whatever happens to you happened. And you can pretend that it didn't happen, or you can pretend not to think about it,

but it's going to be there. And then how you handle that really becomes how the rest of your life can work out. So if you can find a way to understand it, accept it, you can feel sad about it. Of course you feel sad about it or whatever it is, but then you move on. So it doesn't become part of your daily life. And one of my mother's favorite sayings is you can't heal what you can't feel. Mm-hmm. And I think for all you listeners, you know, there's so much strength in feeling what you need to heal and then, but don't feel it every day. Don't feel it every minute, but know that it's there and keep trying to find a solution for it. You may feel some rage. You may feel all those sadness. I mean, everyone has a story. Every single person has a story and, you know, acknowledge your story.

And as my mother will tell you, write a book about it. I also wrote down something else that you said, which was what comes out of you doesn't make you sick. It's what stays in that does. Exactly. That's exactly. And there's one thing we cannot change is the past, but we can use it because it's easier to die than to live. I was very suicidal after I was liberated because my parents are not showing up. My boyfriend died. He was killed the day before liberation. So no, I don't forget or overcome.

I don't know what to do with that. Coming to terms with it makes sense more than anything else. So I like to refer to it as my cherished wound. You talk about in your book, The Gift as well. You say you don't want people to read your story and think, well, there's no way my suffering compares to hers. Exactly. You want people to hear it and think, well, there's no way my suffering compares to hers. You want people to hear it and think, if she can do it, so can I. What do Ontario dairy farmers bring to the table? A million little things, but most of all, the passion and care that goes into producing the local high quality milk we all love and enjoy every day.

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Check it from Popeye's before it ghosts you for another year. You also say in your book that there you have some keys to freeing yourself from victimhood. And one of them is that was then, and this is now. And another that I thought was very interesting was in every crisis, there is a transition. And I would love to hear you talk more about that transition point that people experience during crises. And maybe both of you can touch on this in your work in the psychology field. Well, you can also talk about midlife. And midlife is not a crisis. It's a transition. You can't have any children, but who wants some anyway by then? I think it's very important to really welcome the midlife transition that you can be childlike,

but not childish. And I think that's important because if you ask a child, why do you do that? The kid would say, because I feel like it. Children don't care about consequences. But as an adult, I still feel like it. I have the temptation. Why? So I can practice the freedom of choice.

I still feel like it, but if I have diabetes, I really cannot eat my seven-layer chocolate cake because it's not good for me. So I hope you can be a good parent to you. And I hope that you give our children roots and wings and then let them fly. When they go to college, they don't have to call you 10 times a day. And I like to say there are no problems.

There are only challenges. There are no crises. There are only transitions. And you get older and wiser. So you're not a strong woman. You are a woman of strength. And that's what I discovered in Auschwitz. When nothing came from the outside, dependency can breed depression. The thing about changes and changes in time and transitions, you're a mother of four. One of the things that all mothers feel

is watching their children grow and change while they themselves are growing and changing. And it's actually philosophically, I mean, it's actually a beautiful concept, right? But in reality, it's exhausting and exciting and wonderful. And you can see your children grow up and succeed or have problems and you have your own issues of life going on. I mean, it's a very complicated thing. And I think that how we as parents address this time is kind of critical to our own happiness, our own development, and that of our children. And being a child psychologist, you know, this notion that children are made by their environment, well, their environment helps and it makes a difference.

But children are born in certain ways. And, you know, and if you've had more than one, you know that they're all different and that's just the way they come. And so some children are easier. Some children are harder. Some children understand you better. Some children don't get you at all. This is what life is. And I think the more that we, as parents, can just kind of accept it, find ways to love our children, to love ourselves, to love each other, make plans, figure out what to do next, defend them when necessary. That's one of our jobs.

I adore parenting. I adore dealing with parents, helping children. But it's not that it's an easy time. Do you remember when you were two years old and she was in a daycare center? When a child was crying, they sent Marian to talk to the other children. She's the most brilliant child psychologist. Aw. Yes, she is.

Aw. She is. I love that. She took care of me, and she showed me how to read Chicken Little and Ducky Lucky and Goosey Lucy, and I didn't know which is which either. She also told me to buy a turkey for Thanksgiving, and I didn't know what turkey meant, but I knew I couldn't afford it. And so I ended up buying a little chicken in a grocery store for 29 cents.

It's in my book. And I did the high kick and I came home. I was totally fired up. And I told her, guess what? We're going to have a baby turkey. And I said, I never told her I couldn't afford it. We are poor. No, no. We always can take tragedy and turn it into triumph and victory and find the gift in everything. If I could do it in Auschwitz, you can do it today. Absolutely. I would love to hear more about this time that so many of us have found personally, extraordinarily challenging these last two years of the pandemic. Many people have lost loved ones. Many people have been sick themselves. Some people have had long COVID where they got sick and it has not resolved itself. And outside of that, even if you have remained perfectly healthy and so have all of

your loved ones, what an extraordinary time of challenge and change for the world as we've adjusted to new ways of being, new ways of interacting with people. And you say in your book that Auschwitz was ultimately a place of discovery. And the time of COVID-19 was another time of discovery for you. Can you talk more about how COVID has been a time of discovery? You know, it's not what happens. It's what we do with death. I think when you're a victim, you're going to find the victimizer. You cannot be a victim without, you know, blaming.

So I think COVID is a time of discovery, discovering your inner resources, discovering how to be a good role model, because children don't do what we say, they do what they see. So if anything happens and you want to say something, it's good to talk to yourself and check it out. I do that when I am visiting my children. I ask myself, is it important? Is it really necessary?

But most of all, is it kind? And if not, don't say it. I practice that all the time, wherever I am, especially with my children, especially when I eat my daughter's dinner, when I never know what she's going to put on my plate. She puts salmon with papaya on the top of it. She makes a pasta and I call it disappearing pasta. You know, she puts all and then it just disappears. Like magic into the black holes of our stomachs. Exactly. You know, I want to talk about what's happened to children during COVID because the number of kids who've become depressed, who have felt sad, who felt like life has almost stopped for them, that what they thought was normal life became, well, they lost a lot of it. This business of learning at home, some of the late night people

have been laughing about how, well, my kid's gone back to school and I learned one thing. I'm not a good teacher. My kid behind or whatever. But it's not that parents haven't tried really hard, but the whole process, the social life for children, they like going to school and being with other kids. They like their activities. They have a real life outside the home. And during COVID, the home was the life. So the pressure on families to find a way to still find joy, to be busy, to find new things. I mean, the pressure on the parents has been enormous. So they're trying to work from home and they're trying to take care of their kids and make sure all these things are going. So it's been hard and we're seeing the numbers

just be huge. And a lot of kids took a lot of their pleasure from being on the internet, but that pleasure was also mixed many times with the pain of not feeling like they were a part of things or there was just way too much. And so they got depressed from that. So I think for parents working through each of these phases during COVID plus their own incidents of maybe losing people, having to take care of people, it's been complicated, very complicated. Very much so, especially for women who have really borne a lot of the, the brunt of the trying to straddle childcare, teaching their children at home, still working out, you know, working from home or having to exit their, their careers because they needed to care for their children. Absolutely.

It's been very, very challenging. Do either of you have any advice for parents or particularly mothers who have been really carrying a heavy burden the last couple of years? I would play dumb and let the children get involved more and more. And I do that with my patients. I just don't speak English very well. And the couple will get together how they can help me out, and I get all the free information.

I think you have to look at COVID as a time of discovery, that it doesn't work what you used to do, and now you're discovering a different way. They both created that, but they keep blaming each other. Children blame. While you blame, you're still a child. I don't care how old you are. I think one of the things that is so important is that, as my mother's saying,

you want your kids to tell you what's happening. So if you help them too much with how to talk about it or you give them your opinion too quickly, or you're judgmental right away, you're shutting them off and you're not going to ever know. And then you're going to be less rich for it. And they will also. And I think that's very complicated because we mothers are like to be efficient,

get it all done. You know, how was your day at school? What happened? What's your homework? Let's get out. You know, all that's reality. But sometimes it's better to say, But sometimes it's better to say, oh, remember that kid you told me about? What's going on? You know, or I mean, any issue your child once said to you, find a way to do it. The other thing that I find being a psychologist and not being able to talk about my practice with my kids is that I used to make things up all the time. Oh, I heard the greatest story, something maybe I read in the paper or whatever, and I put it out there as just something fun to hear.

And that way it's not too personal, but it gets the kids to start to think and to talk and also to feel like, oh, I have such an interesting life. Maybe they could grow up, you know, but they feel like, wow, she does fun things with her life. I mean, I think, you know, you've got to sell it. If you don't sell it, how are they going to have ambition? I love that. I really enjoyed reading about the food section in your book. And this is one of the things that I thought was very, still so true today.

You said food has always had the capacity to bring me joy. Even in Auschwitz, barely existing on the prison regimen of thin broth and crusts of bread, we prepared feasts in our mind. And again, that speaks to the words your mother told you, that they can never take away what's in your mind. And you would argue over how much caraway goes in the best rye bread and how much paprika goes in Hungarian paprikash, praising the ingredients and choreographing the preparation of our favorite dishes.

And you said that you pledged that if you ever escaped that hell, you would fill your home to the brim with the healing power of food. I would love to hear more about what you view as the healing power of food. How has food made a difference in your life? One of the things that is important to say that if you were just for the me, me, me, you didn't make it. We had to transcend our ego needs. We had to cooperate, not compete or dominate because all we had was each other then and all we have is each other now. I hope, I have a dream, just like you do, that we're going to form a human family, that you can be you and I can be me.

And that's why we come to America and we just don't eat hot dogs and popcorn. And we just don't eat hot dogs and popcorn. You know, we have the recipes from all over the world that we can be brothers and sisters and find something in common that we can empower each other with our differences. That's lovely. What were your favorite foods that your mother made for you when you were a child? Fried chicken. Fried chicken. That chicken was little. My mother makes a great fried chicken. Oh, and dip it in flour and dip it in eggs. It's delicious. And make it crispy. And that is what my mom did for my birthday.

My mother makes it too. I think my favorite dishes were, my father used to make a thing called Hungarian toast. And he would take rye bread and he would cook it in butter till it was crispy and serve it with breakfast. And it is unbelievably good. Remember that? My mother's chicken paprikash, I mean, people fly in from all over the world. And when they fly in and they come visit her, they beg for the chicken paprikash.

With a spezel. With a spezel. Bidosh betzel. And we have that actually in the book. And it is really, really, really good. I'll make it for you if you come and visit. I would love that. Yes. My mother also makes an outrageous chicken soup.

It's made with chicken and beef. And by the time it's finished and you just have the soup, you cannot believe this is the most delicious thing you've ever had as a soup. And marrow bones. She puts marrow bones in. I mean, anyway, it's also in the new version of the book, which is going to be coming out soon. I love learning more about your heritage through reading through your recipes. You also have a great section about the sort of Hungarian cooking methods, just to give people an overview of how these things were made.

Because obviously making them in 1930s and 40s hungry, different than cooking them in 2022 America. Yes. different than cooking them in 2022 America. Yes. So the reality is that once upon a time, I had a food column. And I also had a PhD. And I really saw I was busy, busy inventing recipes, and also teaching at the university here at UCSD and, and having children. And the famous James Beard came to town and I got to know him. And he said, look, if you want a career in food, you can have it. I love your recipes. I love what you do, but you're going to have to travel. And you actually have a PhD and you could have a career just staying at home. And I thought you're absolutely right. So that

was the end of it. So it's so much fun now to do this with my mother and to bring all these recipes to the world because I've made, I've put them in there so that you can actually make them. These are real recipes for real people to make. I think the other thing to say is if you came to visit my mother, she would always have some nut rolls in her freezer that she makes these delicious nut rolls. You can tell if she really likes you because she'll pull them out of the freezer. And my grandchildren now have learned to make them. So when they have things at school and the kids have to bring things in, they will bring nut rolls in and slice them up for the kids. These are the kids who are like eight and 10.

So, you know, if they can do it, anybody can do it. I love that. I also love what you have to say about food that every meal you make or every meal you have makes a difference in your happiness each day. And you can choose to treat each as a rushed moment of ignoring or damaging yourself or as a tiny celebration. And we need more tiny celebrations. Totally. Totally. You know, our family, our family loves food. And I think a lot of families love food. And so now I'm going to play psychologist. There's been a lot of research in what makes for successful kids as they grow up, successful college students, etc. And one of the main factors is having dinner together.

And this is something that we've kind of lost with all the sports. And I'm a sports psychologist, so I'm not telling you don't do sports. Sports are great. But find a time, a few times a week, whether everybody eats breakfast together or you have dinner later or the weekend, whatever, but eat together, enjoy the moment. But, you know, eat together, enjoy the moment, but you know, to find food as a time for family joy is I think really important both for your emotional life, but also for the life of the mind. I could chat with you all day. And I have one, one question that I want to ask each of you before we sign off for today, which is if somebody were to pick up this new edition of the book that you've worked on together, The Gift, what would you love for them to take away? I like for them to change their attitude. to change their attitude.

That's why I ask people, don't call me shrink, call me stretch. And I think we give you an opportunity for an opportunity to add food and recipes to whatever you're doing now and bring in a little Hungarian and bring in a little French and bring in a bit some food that you didn't touch before. I know that Southern food is different from the Yankee food. And I think whatever you want to add to your repertoire right now is going to really give you a different perspective and give you curiosity, because the curiosity kept me alive in Auschwitz. I always wanted to know what's going to happen next. And I think we provide you that.

Next, look at the book, take one of those recipes that seems very far out from your repertoire and make it happen. A tiny celebration. Yes. And how about you? What would you love for somebody to take away? I think the thing I would like people to take away is this notion that there is peace in our hearts.

There is knowledge that can be gained. There's gifts we can give to the people we love every day. Little tiny, tiny gifts. And if you want to cook along the way, go for it. But life is life. And how we live it, you know, every day matters. We only have so many years on this earth, every day matters. So make each day matter in a special way. That's, that's what, what I hope to take. Yes. Well, I've strongly encourage everybody to buy a copy

of the gift. You will absolutely, I guarantee you, you will take many things away from it. And I'm so honored that you would spend time with me. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much for your lovely work. And I am very excited to see your world tour and your Broadway show and your musicals and your movies and all the things that you still have yet to accomplish. You are a pleasure. Thank you so much. Brilliant. I have a brilliant mind and a very warm heart. Thank you. You got it all. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be

willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time. Hey, Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility. By recycling properly, you help conserve resources, reduce energy use and greenhouse gas emissions, and protect the environment. Toronto's Blue Bin Recycling Program ensures the majority of the

right items are recovered and transformed into new products. Recycling right is important and impactful. Let's work together and make a difference because small actions lead to big Transcription by CastingWords