Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Life in Five Senses with Gretchen Rubin

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Today on Here’s Where It Gets Interesting, bestselling author Gretchen Rubin joins Sharon to talk about her newest book, Life in Five Senses. Gretchen talks about how to use our sensory experiences to draw closer to other people and evoke our memories. She is a fan of practical application–trying small things throughout our day to enrich our senses and open us up to more beauty, happiness, and passion for the ways in which we decide to enrich our lives. Hosted by: Sharon McMahon Guest: Gretchen Rubin Executive Producer: Heather Jackson Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Researcher: Valerie Hoback Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. So excited you're joining me today. I am chatting with a guest that many, many of you have requested, Gretchen Rubin. You may be familiar with Gretchen's podcast, Happier. You may be familiar with her previous books like The Happiness Project. And Gretchen has a brand new book out called Life in Five Senses, how exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world. And as always, Gretchen is somebody who shares really, really practical information. And I just loved this conversation. So let's dive in.

I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. all about life in five senses. What about this topic, first of all, interested you? We all have senses. We all experience the world through it. What made you think, you know what, there is stuff to explore here. I need to write about it. Well, you know, it came out of sort of an epiphany that I had. I had pink eye and I ended up having to go to the eye doctor because it was lingering. And as I was walking out, the doctor said to me very casually, well, be sure to come back for your regular checkup too, because as you know, you're at greater risk of losing your vision. And I was like, wait, what? I did not know that. What are you talking about? And he said, no, yeah, you're very severely nearsighted and that puts you

at greater risk of having a detached retina. And so we want to catch that right away if that happens. And just by chance, I had a friend who had just recently lost some vision to a detached retina. So that felt very real to me. And of course, intellectually, I know the way we all know that at any minute, anything could happen. And I also knew that if I did lose my senses, I could still have a rich, meaningful life. But it just hit me for the first time I really felt that possibility. And as I was, I live in New York City, so I was walking home from the eye doctor. And as I went out onto the street, I just thought, all this is all around me and I just take it for granted. I mean, I didn't notice a single thing on my walk over here. I think my

sight is so precious and yet I'm not paying any attention to my sense of sight. And like with that realization, it was like every knob in my brain just got switched to 11 and I could just see everything crystal clear. I could hear every noise. I could smell every smell because I live in New York city. It's very smelly. It was all just in this hyper-reality intensity that was just so beautiful. And I just felt so energized and so alive. And I realized I feel this way because it's coming to me through my five senses. This is happening to me all the time. And I'm just not paying attention. I'm stuck in my head. I need to get out into the world through my five senses. That walk sort of showed me that would be the way. intellectualizing everything, and in many cases, not actually experiencing the full sense of joy or wonder or curiosity that is possible if we get out of our head and are willing to live a portion

of our lives at least through the experiences we can gather from our senses. Yeah. And the thing is our physical experience always colors our emotional experience. We're experiencing the world through our bodies. And there's just a sense of being in direct contact with the world and with yourself and with other people that comes when you are just, you know, I just, and maybe it's because I'm really good at focusing. I just get lost in this fog of preoccupation. I'm just thinking my own thoughts and hardly notice what's happening around me. I really have to make an effort to wake up to the richness of the world. And I think it's such a, I don't know, it just feels like, and again, this is interesting because so much of our emotions are tied to our sensory experiences, but it just feels like a much richer way to live your life. And I think people are

hungry for it. I mean, maybe now more than ever, like everybody's talking about the metaverse, but really people are hungering for the universe. I think that's why everything now is billed as immersive. People want to touch stuff and feel it for themselves and overwhelm their senses. And we find that really exciting. I think if there's two things that are happening that are kind of in the opposite direction, but they're both contributing to it. I think on one hand, we're behind screens and the world feels kind of thin and drained. But then on the other hand, it's like things are hyper processed and like ultra ramped up. So, you know, you're eating this food that's at,

it hits every bliss point. And yet, because you just bought it and picked it up, you don't have the rich smells that come if you had been cooking it or baking it or caramelizing it or grilling it in your own home. Or like you see a movie and you see so many more images and you hear a soundtrack and it's all overwhelming and exciting. And yet you're not smelling anything. There's no wind in your face. You're not touching anything. So it's kind of like on the one hand, it's overwhelming. And then on the other hand, it's really underwhelming. So I think, again, going through our five senses, it puts us back into that sense of direct contact. You know, you are very well known for being an observer and researcher on the topic of happiness. This seems to be part of your life's work is learning about happiness. And one of the things

that I've always found interesting about you or admired about you is that you don't just like do this research and be like, well, according to Bob, you might feel 25% happier if you put your left sock on first. You're not just doling out the advice. You actually go out and you try these things. You try them for yourself. And then you report back on your findings after having tried them for yourself. So tell us a little bit about exactly what that process was like as you sort of had this

awakening, as you were working on this book, what was the process of Gretchen experimentation like? Well, you're exactly right. I'm kind of interested in practical happiness. So I, you know, I love the transcendent ideals and the abstract concepts, but I'm always trying to figure out, okay, like, so how could an ordinary person like me put that to use without a lot of time, energy, or money? What would that mean? So with this, I thought of a lot of different ways that I, with each sense, how I could approach it. So one was just to learn more. The more we know, the more we notice. And I didn't know that much about my senses or how they work, which was absolutely fascinating because my gosh, the body, it's just extraordinary. So there was the research part of

it. And then sometimes I would take a class too, because again, the more I would put into it, the more I would get from it. Sometimes I would deprive myself of something because sometimes we become much more attuned to something if we stop indulging in it for a while. So like, for instance, I just saw some research today talking about the effectiveness of something I did, which was to turn my phone to grayscale. You use your phone in black, white, and gray, you deprive yourself of like all the colors and it's much easier to turn off your phone. Or if you stop drinking coffee, you will become much more aware of the beauty of coffee. Or sometimes I would try to connect with other people through a sense, because this was one of the big things I wanted to do was to draw

closer to other people. And our sensory experience is a great way to do that. So I planned all sorts of activities and exercises that would help me to grow closer to other people. Also to evoke memories. I think everybody knows that our senses play a big role in evoking memories and kind of solidifying memories for us. And we can really tap into that. Even when I was writing the conclusion, I was like, wait, wait, I've got another idea. You know, I was just throwing them in. I'm constantly like thinking of fun, new exercises. I think the point of the book is, I hope it's not so much what I did that's interesting, but that it will have people jumping out of their chairs thinking like, Ooh, that gives me a great idea of what I want to do in my own life. Maybe I would adapt it this way, or maybe I'll try that. But it's to get you imagining what you could do just as part

of your ordinary day. Did you find going through these processes, these sets of experiments of I'm going to go to the Met every day, I'm going to take this flavor class, all of these different experiences, in what way did it impact your own life or your own sense of happiness, contentedness, wellbeing, connection? How did it impact you? Well, I have to say I went into it having high hopes, like sort of my hypothesis is that it would make me happier in a lot of different ways. And I have to say it was far more effective than I imagined. I think probably because I was lost in my head. I had a long, I had a lot of low hanging fruit. So it really made a big difference in a lot of different ways. Some of which I sort of expected, but then some of which was really surprising to me.

Like one thing that really surprised me is like how much it sparked creativity and especially the sense of touch and like thinking about making ideas tangible or like using materials. And what was also interesting to me is I kind of thought, well, maybe doing this will make me like want to get into watercolor, or maybe I'll finally learn how to play the ukulele. But what really happened was that it sparked my creativity in my usual direction, which is through words. So it just made me want to create more and new and different things with words, which I was kind of surprised by. It sort of didn't flow into a new channel.

It just was sort of rushing with new force through my existing channel, which actually is great because that's what I really love. I really love to do things with words. There is so much to learn, as you just mentioned, about your own senses and how they work. How your senses work is something we take for granted, obviously, because they work largely without our input, but it is mind-blowing. So what are some of the things that you found particularly interesting or surprising when learning about how our senses actually work? I mean, one of the things that really surprised me is how distinctive

each of us are, like how much we all do live in our own sensory worlds. And again, like I kind of intellectually knew that, but when you really think about it, when I say, Sharon, you and I live in a different universe, we are experiencing the world in very different ways. It's kind of bonkers to realize how much that is true. And it's partly genetic. It's partly your upbringing. It's partly your interests and idiosyncrasies. It's kind of bonkers to realize how much that is true. And it's partly genetic. It's partly your upbringing. It's partly your interests and idiosyncrasies. It's your experience. But just to give you an example, because we're both podcasters, I was doing a podcast interview

and the person said to me, oh, wait, let's stop for a minute. And I was like, why are we stopping? And she said, don't you hear the siren? And I was like, well, now I do. But my brain is just dialing down siren because I live in New York City. I don't need to know hear the siren? And I was like, well, now I do. But my brain is just dialing down siren because I live in New York City. I don't need to know when a siren goes by. But the person who's listening for audio is very attuned to that. But she said, oh, in LA, they don't hear helicopters. Because in LA, they have so many helicopters, the brain just brings

that down. A friend of mine was saying how in his neighborhood, they changed the flight path of some of the flights. And so the giant LAX planes are flying directly over his house. And he was saying how for him, it was extraordinarily distracting. And he was like leading the charge to get them changed back. He said some of his neighbors hadn't even noticed because he's a sound guy. He loves music. He loves sound. He's attuned to it, but other people just don't hear it. It's the same thing. Like when you get a dog and you're like, all of a sudden, all these pet stores spring into view because your brain is like, Ooh, Sharon, I think you need to know about pet stores, but somebody who doesn't have a pet, it's like, Oh, that's not useful. We're just going to fade

that into the background. And you might think, well, the world is just the world. It's just this objective experience. It really isn't. We really, our brains are editorializing. They're getting in there. They're tinkering with the information to give us what we need, which is not what somebody else's needs, which is one reason we have to, we really want to show consideration for other people because an experience that for us could be completely fine and not bothersome at all might for someone else be really troublesome. And so you just want to remember that just because it doesn't bother me, doesn't mean that for someone else, this isn't a big issue that we want to tackle.

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Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. We've long thought that things like social media and algorithms reinforce this idea that we are all living in a universe of our own creation. Because the algorithm figures out Sharon is really interested in farm animals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She loves pet tricks. Yes, she loves the history of wool spinning. You know, like whatever it is. And then it just keeps feeding me that information. And so it leads one to believe that the whole world is interested in

the history of idiosyncratic handcrafts. And even if you know intellectually that's not true, these algorithms help you feel as though there are other people out there who are interested in the same things as me. There's this sense of creating a universe of your own design. But what I'm hearing you say is that your senses do the same thing for you, perhaps in a slightly different way. Your brain habituated the sound of sirens. I don't need that information. It's gone. Another way you see this often is with smell, because the brain is a difference detector. It's looking for change, which could mean danger or opportunity.

So whenever things change, it's particularly attentive. So you notice a rock flying through the air, but if the rock is lying on the ground, you're probably not going to notice it as much. You see this with smell, like you can't smell your home the way a guest smells it because you're used to it. And I'm learning more about this. I'm like, Ooh, I hope my house doesn't smell like dog food because maybe it does. And I just don't notice it. Now, if you go away for like, you're away for two weeks and you come back, then you'll smell it again because you've lost, as you that habituation that odor fatigue we lose

the sense of smell that's another way that our brain is like oh i don't need to tell you about that air freshener because you smell that every time you walk into the room whereas somebody else might be like whoa what is going on in here one of my favorite i thought this was a great observation is a real estate broker said like often people who are selling their houses want to smell things up. They want to put in the Glade air freshener. And she's like, clean doesn't have a smell. You don't know how somebody is going to respond to a smell. Just don't set things up. Just have it be very clean. And I think that's, I think that's a good principle because like, you're right. Once you get used to it, you start, or it's like the perfume, you can't really smell it. So

you start putting on more and more. You don't realize how you're like, everybody else has to like step back a foot because they're just, you know, it's just blaring. And an Airbnb is a great example where to you, it's a very, it's totally new. So you're extremely attentive to all that information. And so it can very quickly become overwhelming. Yeah. Don't you remember going to your friend's houses as a child and you would go to their house for the first time and you'd be like, why do the Hansons have a weird smell in their house? You know what I mean? Like,

don't you remember that as a child being like, wow, Mindy's house smells so good. You noticed it the second you got to somebody else's house. And of course your house had no smell. Right. Exactly. I mean, that's the thing you're like, or it just smells like home. I remember when we moved into our apartment, I felt very kind of lonely and homesick because it just smelled wrong. It didn't smell bad, but it just didn't smell like us. It smelled new. It smelled like someone else's apartment. And I, and that was, I remember how disconcerted I was by that. And then gradually it became our smell. And then I started to feel much more comfortable. But again, it's like, we don't realize like we're both walking into the same room and for you, you're really experiencing something. And I simply am not

perceiving what you are. And it just feels like, well, if this whole house smells like cats, like, how do you not smell that? And it's like, because you just don't because your brain doesn't tell you. And then of course there are genetic differences too. There's people who are super tasters. So they're like, you think, oh, broccoli is delicious. And they're like, I can't eat broccoli. It's so bitter. And it's like, yeah, because to them, they're, they have, they're super tasting it. Speaking to what you were just saying, my family and I love Brussels sprouts, except for my husband who absolutely hates them with the passion of a flaming sun. He hates them so much,

but everybody else loves them. So I made them and I was teasing him and I was like, you should just have a couple bites. They're extremely delicious. And his visceral reaction to Brussels sprouts, he was literally, this is a very mild-mannered, diplomatic, easygoing guy. And he was like, no! His reaction to the idea of having to taste that taste was so pronounced. really made me think about this conversation and about how much judgment our brains are using when we have a sensory experience. We judge it very often as positive, or in some cases, like Brussels sprouts and my husband, extremely negative. Did you experience this when you were working on this project? Well, absolutely. And Brussels sprouts are sort of a polarizing food. There are certain foods like cilantro or candy corn or the like

peeps. Oh yeah. And then the kind of family of like black licorice, anise and fennel. Like some people love it. I don't like it at all. I mean, Brussels sprouts definitely falls into that category. You definitely see that people respond very differently. And it's fascinating. One thing I would say, especially for people who are younger, there's kind of a try by 25 rule that I figured out, which is when it comes to music and flavors, tastes, often if we haven't tried something and enjoyed it by the time we're 25, we don't really readily learn to like it later, which is sort of an argument for trying to try and embrace as many things as you can when you're younger, because you can sort of still add that to your repertoire in terms of listening to music and trying tastes.

We are hardwired for a certain taste. So it's interesting with smell, no. All good or bad associations we have with smell are purely associative. But with taste, we are born hardwired to love sweet because sweet is so often associated with nutrition and to reject bitter because often things that are toxic have a bitter taste. So we kind of have to learn to overcome bitter with things like coffee or broccoli to develop a taste for it. But here's something fascinating, sour. Okay. People have very different tolerances for sour, but there is this window of childhood, which for reasons that no one can figure out why this is true,

children really love sour much more than infants or adults. And you see this in the candy aisle and they don't know why this is, but it's like, you know, it's like a fact. It's not, I was always like, why is it that some people love this stuff? You know, cause it's so sour. Yes. It's a developmental stage people go through. I did not know that. I mean, yeah, you know, that kids are like obsessed with sour patch kids or sour gummy worms or whatever. Right. Which that I'm like, why would you eat this on purpose? Yes. Like it makes your salivary glands kind of hurt a little bit. Yeah, just talking about it makes my mouth kind of pucker up.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's just a gummy worm dipped in citric acid. That's literally all it is. And that's delicious to children. You're so right. I had never thought about how children are obsessed with sour candy. And then that kind of very often tends to fade as you get older. Yes, it does. And we are all born wired for sweetness. So that's not a cultural thing that like children like sweets, like they are born with that. Yeah. And I did recently learn something that echoes exactly what you just said, which is that this idea that all smell associations are learned and that what you consider to be a good or delicious or yummy or invigorating, pleasant smell, exactly, is based on learned associations. And very often it's cultural. Where you grow up, the foods you ate,

what they smelled like when they were cooking, it smells delicious to you. For whatever reason, you develop a positive association with mandarin oranges, but not with cilantro. One of the things I did for the book, and I did this to strengthen relationships and also to have fun with taste, is I had a party, a taste party. I had friends over and we all did taste comparisons. I did a, I had a party, a taste party. I had friends over and we all did taste comparisons, but what I fed is like, so I took four kinds of apples. It was the top three or four brands of varieties of apples in the United States. But one of the things is it can be hard to put into words or experiences. So I started reading adjectives like, is it lemony? Is it floral? Is it acidic? Is it mealy? Is it tart? Is it sweet? And as we did it, you saw that people got better,

like even in like the space of 10 or 15 minutes, got better at sort of like saying like, oh, if you really start putting it into words, the difference between a gala apple and a Granny Smith apple is enormous. But in our everyday lives, we're not doing taste comparisons that way. And we're not trying to put it into words. It's super fun. Something like wine, I think does feel very next level, but try it with something like apples or potato chips or vanilla ice cream brands. And just say like, can I taste the difference? And what is the difference? It's super fun because it's a way of kind of experiencing the range of tastes that we don't really examine as closely because it's not our profession. You know, it's like the way some, a nose in the perfume industry does the

same thing with scent. We just don't do that in everyday life very much. That sounds like such a fun idea for a get together too, to be like, we are going to be tasting vanilla ice cream. I mean, how fun is that? That is so fun. Come over and I have five different kinds and we're going to do a taste, a blind taste test and see what we think of each one. That actually sounds very fun. It's really fun. And you, and I, and you can do it with candy. I had a mystery drink, which was Red Bull. I didn't tell people what it was. And people were like, what the heck is this? Then we talked about this idea on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. And somebody told me about a tradition she does in her family, which I thought was another fun

way to do a taste test. For Thanksgiving, they have a big family, they would get 10 different kinds of like fancy ice cream, the kinds that sound delicious, and then I'll do some of the ones that sound kind of weird, like creamed corn ice cream, and you're like, oh, it's probably delicious, but I'm scared to order it. They would get it all and then they would all just pass it around and take just like a few spoonfuls. So you would have the fun of trying all these different tastes, but you're not, you're not committing. And then they would all rank them and say, and like, do like a kind of a power ranking of these 10. And I thought that sounds so fun. And it's something that like a grandparent and like a little grandchild who's four years old would equally

love. And it's like, you could discover something new and you could try one of these things that you've always been curious about, but like, are you ever going to like go out and buy it? I just thought that was a really fun idea. Totally. Yeah. When you're going shopping for ice cream, it is difficult to rationalize like, you know what? I'm going to try the watermelon jalapeno. Yeah. I mean, you're just not, no, you don't, you're not going to do that. Why waste a great ice cream cone or a great carton on taking a big risk? But this gives you a chance to do that with very minimal risk. But I love the idea of tying it to a connection with somebody you care about and making it something fun to do together. One of the things about the taste party that

was really fun is one of the things I had to taste was different kinds of chocolate, like milk chocolate, dark chocolate, fancy chocolate, cheap chocolate. And well, can you really taste the difference between a fancy chocolate and a cheap chocolate? But what that did is it got everybody talking about the candy of their childhood. And that was actually really interesting because this gave me an unusual window into my friends growing up. We talked a lot about just sort of the circumstances of what it was when we were like 10 years old. And it was just took us to a level that you don't often get in everyday life. And it was very specific and it was sort of intimate without being personally revealing for people who aren't comfortable with that. And yet I really came away feeling like knowing this just little thing about my friend's taste really did give me a greater insight into their inner life and experience in a way that I hadn't really had access to before.

It was surprising. And that would be something you could invite your friends that don't know each other, invite them over. Yes. It's an icebreaker. Absolutely. And you're not like, tell me about your trauma. Right. Or even tell me about your childhood. It's just like, we just started talking about what was the junk food that your parents would never buy for you? And then that just was so fun. Yeah. I have very vivid memories of going to the 7-Eleven growing up and I definitely had my go-to. If I had a dollar, here's what I was going to buy at the 7-Eleven. What did you buy? Peanut butter Twix were always a favorite. A classic. Yep. Or Reese's Peanut Butter Cups. That was always like, I'm a huge peanut butter

fan. So that was always, of course, a favorite, but I do love gummy bears. Still love them to this day. I'm not a gummy fan. No. I love it. But yes, it is. You're absolutely right about how that could help you make a connection with somebody without them necessarily feeling like, well, I'm not going to spill my guts to these strangers at your house. Right. Or you're doing it with your team at work and you're like, I don't want to make anybody feel uncomfortably on the spot.

But I mean, even that you went into a 7-Eleven with a dollar, that's showing me something about the way you grew up. You know, I'm getting a better insight of like where you come from and just, but in a fun, playful way. What other tips do you have for people to be able to enjoy their senses in perhaps unexpected ways? I love the idea of having like a social gathering taste test. What other ideas do you have? Well, one hack that it's really resonated with people is because sometimes we can sort of solve a problem using our five senses. And so I think for a lot of people, they do feel very tempted by their sense of taste. And often we've sort of gotten into the habit of when we need a little

energy boost, or maybe a little mood boost, or maybe we're just kind of bored and just kind of need something to wake ourselves up. We run into the kitchen, we're like grazing through checking out what's in the cabinet in a way that often people feel like it's not very healthy. Well, what I found is that what we're really looking for is kind of the shock that can come through for our senses. We get kind of a boost or a little bit of an energy, a little shake us up, shake us awake, but you can do that with any of your senses. So whatever might be interesting to you. So I love the sense of smell. So what I've learned to do is like, if I'm in the kitchen, grab like a bottle of almond extract or a jar of saffron and take a deep whip or something like grapefruit, which I love, pickles, capers, anything. It just kind of wakes you up and it

sort of distracts you from that sense of wanting to snack. Or like if you're somebody who loves music and maybe you love new music, well, maybe you save some new music until you need a lift like this. Like I created an audio apothecary of songs like that, you know, needed to be my medicine cabinet of energy. So maybe you have a couple of songs that like, you'll turn to when you just,

you need it like some cheer and some energy, or like, if you love touch, like need it like some cheer and some energy, or like, if you love touch, like maybe there's some, you have like therapy dough or you love to make things with yarn and you're just going to run your hand, like just handle your yarn. When one sense is very stimulated and satisfied and gratified, that desire to snack kind of fades away. And so sometimes it's easier to redirect your attention than to like fight temptation. So I just offered this because this is something that a lot of people mentioned as sort of an issue. And here's a fun one. Again, this is sort of in like just the grab bag of like

hacks. If you're trying to get people to be quiet, you know, like you're, you've got a noisy family, you got to get them to be quiet. You're having a meeting and people are like chatting and they won't settle down. Just blow into a harmonica. You don't have to play the harmonica. Just make that sound. And for some reason, I don't know if this is all like our kindergarten training or something like that. People just instantly are quiet. They hear that sound and they're like, Ooh, that means it's time to be quiet. And they just fall quiet. It's much better than like clinking on a glass or clapping your hands or just sort of raising your voice. And it's feels much more elegant. It's a very pleasing sound.

You just go hum and probably would work with a kazoo, but I like, I like a harmonica. Maybe people at wedding, you should pass out harmonicas. Exactly. Instead of the glass clinking. Yes. Just put it. And it's so, it's so portable. You can just stick it in your pocket. But in terms of the deeper, these are like fun little things, but if you're talking about like the deeper question of like, if somebody feels like they're just stuck in their head and they want to get out back out into their senses, really, it's just about mindfulness. You know, it's really about stopping and taking the time and thinking I need to find whatever it

will be for me to connect with the world through a sense. And it is so variable because for some people, maybe their way would be through music. So they're going to listen to more music. They're going to start going to live concerts more. Maybe they're going to get back into playing an instrument, which is very tactile. Playing an instrument is very different from listening to an instrument. Being in a live hall is very different from listening to it through your headphones. This is a thing also where you can think about, well, how can I use technology to give me the sensory experience that I want?

Maybe I like vinyl. So I'm going to go out and get a record album just back in the day because that's a different kind of listening. Well, here's a great question. OK, Sharon, for you, when you are trying to concentrate, like you're reading something challenging or you're trying to write something original, do you want music with no words, music with words, silence, busy home, like being in a coffee shop? Like what's your sensory surroundings that are conducive to focus? Well, it either needs to be totally quiet. That's what I need. Or

I have to listen to something like brown noise. Okay. I cannot do music. I do not want to hear your coffee shop orders. No, get out of here. I cannot get any work done at this dang coffee shop. The idea that people are productive at coffee shops, it blows my mind. But how? How are you productive at a coffee shop? I need to be deprived of my sense of sound. But see, this is a great example. So you and I are both the same. We prefer silence. I can work in a coffee shop, but I prefer silence. But this is a great example of how people really need different sensory environments. And so like, let's say you work in an open plan office and your boss is like, I'm working in this environment. I don't think it's a problem. I don't know what your deal is. And you're like, yeah,

because we're different. Or like, maybe I have a child who's got some kind of music playing and I'm like, if you're going to concentrate, you need to turn that off. But my, and the child is saying, no, I need this music. And also for ourselves, it's like, well, if I know this is what I need, how do I try to shape my sensory environment to suit me? Because I think often we try to jam ourselves into someone else's model and think, well, if other people can work, what's wrong with me? Instead of saying, oh, I'm observing a difference. It's just like morning people and night people. Some people are night people. Some people are morning people. Some people are in between. And when we understand that people are different, we can show

a lot more consideration for others and think about, well, what do they need? And how do we create an environment where everyone can thrive, which is very different from saying I'm right, you're wrong, or you're right, I'm wrong. Or what does research show? I always think that I'm like, I'm interested in what research shows, but in the end, I gotta, I gotta think about myself here because I might be an outlier. And I often am is what I've learned about myself. I'm often the kind of the odd one out. I'm still stuck with myself. It doesn't help me that 99 people are fine with it. Totally. And I love how you offer such practical ideas. These are not just like, well, here's what the research says. They are things that real humans with real lives and jobs and kids and income limitations, et cetera, can actually implement in their own

lives. It's not just about like, wow, you'll have a great sensory experience if you go to a Swiss spa. I mean, sure, we all agree that's probably true, but that's not reality for most people. So I love that about your work too. No, and this is the thing about the five senses. This is something that it is happening all around us. Now, of course, we don't all have the same senses. We don't all have our five senses, but there's room to grow. There's room to learn. It can be fun to learn more about something that you already love, or it can be fun to learn about something that you don't already tap into. something that you already love, or it can be fun to learn about something that you don't, that you don't already tap into. I mean, I learned, I learned so much about ketchup. I'm like,

ketchup is magic. I took it for granted my whole life. Now I'm like, well, that is really an amazing substance. And now my whole life, it's like, I just, I just get more pleasure out of ketchup. And I love that they're just real tangible ways to add a small amount of joy and wonder to your daily life. And I think we all need more of that. Your life is richer because of it. Absolutely. That is absolutely true.

And again, my hope is that it just gets people fired up in their own lives, that they do just start thinking like, oh, I have all these possibilities. There are things that maybe I already do and don't realize how much I would like to do it more. Or there's something that I've overlooked that I can tap into. Or I understand somebody in my life better. Maybe I've been complaining about my sister's house smelling like X, Y, or Z and didn't understand why. And now I'm like, oh, we're not, I understand why we're having this fight. It's like, she can't smell it and I can't. She can't smell it. I can't. She can't smell it. And I can. Yeah. Well,

your new book is a life in five senses. How exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world. It comes out tomorrow, April 18th. So thank you so much for being here today. This was a really fun conversation. Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it so much. It's so great to talk to you. Thanks, Gretchen. I loved so many of the ideas that Gretchen gave us. And if you want even more ideas and you want to dive into more of the concepts that we discussed today, you will enjoy reading Life in Five Senses, how exploring the senses got me out of my head and into the world. And you can also listen to Gretchen's podcast, Happier, on the platform of your choice. Thanks for being here today. This show is researched and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. Our executive producer is Heather Jackson.

Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform? That helps us so much. And we always love to see your shares and tags on social media. We'll see you again soon.