Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Mt. Rushmore: The Good, The Bad, and the Dynamite with Kelli France

Episode Date: January 31, 2022

In this episode, Sharon and guest Kelli France talk about the not-so-stellar history of the construction of Mt. Rushmore in the Black Hills of South Dakota. A sacred place to the Lakota, Tunkasila Sakpe Paha, or Six Grandfathers Mountain, was transformed in the 1920s and 30s into what we know as Mt. Rushmore. The mountain’s complicated history includes broken treaties, a white supremacist sculptor, 14 years of construction, scads of dynamite, and the 60-foot tall faces of Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Roosevelt, and Lincoln. Join Sharon and Kelli to hear facts about the iconic national memorial, and find out what’s in store for its future. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, hello. Thank you so much for being here. And today I'm chatting with my friend Kelly France about the untold story behind four giant presidential heads on a mountain in South Dakota. Maybe you've heard of it. Maybe you've heard of Mount Rushmore. Let's dive in to what you may not already know. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to have my friend Kelly France with me today. Thank you for coming, Kelly. Hi. Hello. How has life been treating you in with your Airbnb in California? So good. It's been crazy and fun and nonstop, but it's been an adventure.

It's always an adventure at the Francis. If people are not already following you, tell people what you do, Kelly. Well, I kind of, I have to back up a little because like years ago, I had this hunch to put, to do a poll on social media. And I asked all these women to rate themselves on a scale of one to 10. And I said, rate your confidence level on a scale of one to 10. And I said, rate your confidence level on a scale of one to 10. And, you know, these are like very educated entrepreneurial put together women. And so I was expecting some high numbers, but I was shocked at the results. And what I discovered was that the average number was a five out of 10. It's a failing grade.

Yeah, that's failing. And I was like, I am not okay with that number. And so I am on a mission to help women love themselves and to increase that number because, you know, we have so many opportunities in our day that we didn't have as women, you know, in the past. And I want our confidence level to catch up to our capacity for impact. So that's, that's what I do. I would love to hear from you more this phrase, like self-love, right? Like that has really like, what does that even mean? Right. You know what I mean? Like, is it just like looking in the mirror and being like, I am gorgeous. You know what I mean? Like what exactly, what, what does that phrase mean to you? So I personally believe that it means having

a loving relationship with yourself as in you are your own best friend. And I think that women and especially moms, we sort of lose that relationship when we start taking care of everyone else. What does it mean though, to have a loving relationship with yourself? I think it means to be, I mean, I was just lecturing my teenage daughter, my actually she's 20 years old now, not a teenager. That's so weird. Um, I was just telling her, you know, you have to be as compassionate with yourself as you are with others. No, really having like some compassion with yourself. I, it means just, I think a lot of it is it all comes down to self-talk. And I say like, you got to drop kick your inner mean girl. And so it means talking

to yourself and treating yourself like you love yourself. Like I, in fact, I had women for one day write down and I'll put this challenge out to your listeners for one day, write down all the things you say to yourself, all the negative things you say to yourself in one day. And it is shocking. Like these women were commenting with a whole list of things they were saying to themselves. And some of their friends were seeing this. Um, this was in my fearless girl community. And some of their friends were like, I'm not okay with you saying that to yourself. Like I know you, and this is not how I see you. It's really sad. And so I want to change that. Absolutely. You're, you're absolutely right. That many people are talking to themselves in unhealthy, unproductive ways that they would

never speak to another human being. And it, it inhibits our ability to have the greatest impact and to live a satisfying, fulfilling life. Totally. Yes. I want them to fear less and live more. And that's why my podcast is called fearless girl. My community is called fearless girl. Well, let's change gears because I have a story to tell you that has absolutely nothing to do with self-love, but it's an interesting story have you been to south dakota before i have not okay so you have never visited mount rushmore no i haven't but i know you know what it is sure deal now rushmore of course is such a such a symbol of the united states and it's such a recognizable symbol couple i so i want to tell you the history behind

Mount Rushmore, because there are definitely some things where you're like, well, I did not know that. For example, did you know that the sculptor of Mount Rushmore decided that there should be a secret room behind the faces on Mount Rushmore in which all kinds of information, exhibits, et cetera, would be stored about the presidents that are depicted on Mount Rushmore. Oh, wow. Okay. And then he eventually kind of ran out of time to make this room. to make this room. And eventually the national park service did make a room, a vault full of information behind Mount Rushmore that is not open to the public. Oh, wow. It was, you could,

it's actually, this is depicted in the national treasure movie behind Mount Rushmore. Like that is a real thing now. That's fascinating. There is a vault with secret stuff in there. Oh man. That's so intriguing. I want to go there now. I want to find that secret place. So many Americans have this very positive view of Mount Rushmore, just like a patriotic place to visit. They're cool sculptures. It's like, wow, those are really realistic sculptures sculpted into the side of a cliff, a mountain, you know, millions of people visit it every year. The sculptures are huge. They're very impressive. They're about 60 feet tall, which is, you know, a few stories tall, but certainly not nearly as big as we maybe envision that they are. The Washington Monument, for example, is almost nine times bigger than the faces on Mount Rushmore. So our view of these massive faces, they certainly are large, but they're not as large as maybe they look on camera. So of course, very, very popular place to visit

in South Dakota, but it doesn't mean that the history of how Mount Rushmore came to be has always been positive. And it doesn't mean that it continues to be positive for some people. The Black Hills are a small, isolated mountain range that are, it started in South Dakota, extended into Wyoming, and they are traditionally the ancestral lands of the Lakota people. And the Black Hills in the Lakota language to the name for them translates to the heart of everything that is. And from the, from a distance, there's these beautiful, you know, pine covered hills that rise several thousand feet above the Prairie and those hills appear black from a distance.

And that's where the name, the black Hills came from. Okay. And of course the Mount Rushmore now has four presidents on it. It has Washington and Jefferson Roosevelt, and each one of those four presidents represent something. And I'll get to that in a moment. One of the things that's also important to know is that this, this mountain that Mount Rushmore was sculpted into was called by the Lakota people, Six Grandfathers Mountain. And it was a very, very significant place to the Lakota from a religious standpoint. They viewed it as a place for prayer and devotion. It wasn't just spiritually significant though. It was a very important hunting area, very important gathering area where they did a lot of food acquisition, where they made a lot of medicines. Soon, gold was discovered in that region. And that led to this huge rush of U.S. prospectors that fled there en masse. There were a lot of battles between the United States

government and the indigenous people of that region. For example, there was a huge massacre at Wounded Knee in 1890. And so the US government began using military force to subdue the indigenous people of that region away from the Black Hills. And what that did was it gave more settlers of European descent the ability to move into that area and then begin to make economic and other use of the region. So Mount Rushmore was actually named for a lawyer, a New York lawyer named Charles Rushmore, who traveled to the Black Hills in 1885. And his goal while he was there was to inspect mining titles. And he also wanted to hunt big game. kill some bison and I'm going to see what there is to see. And he asked a local man, a local European man, what's the name of that nearby mountain? What's the name of that mountain over there? And he was told, oh, it doesn't have a name. And so Charles Rushmore said, now it is named Mount Rushmore. He decided he would name it after himself. It does now. It does now. And of course, it certainly had a name to the indigenous people of the region, but it didn't have a name to

English speakers. But he was like, it does now. Now it's called Mount Rushmore. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It is my girl in the studio! It is my girl in the studio. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments.

So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. In the early 1920s, a man named Joan Robinson, who was South Dakota's state historian, came up with this idea to create sculptures. And he wanted to create sculptures on the needles, which are the giant granite pillars that you see throughout the Black Hills. granite pillars that you see throughout the Black Hills. If you look at pictures, you'll see these,

you see similar concepts in Utah, just made out of different materials. Yeah. Red rocks in Utah, and these are granite pillars in South Dakota. And his idea was, what if we sculpt heroes of the American West into those different granite pillars that dot the landscape. And his suggestions for these sculptures were people like Chief Crazy Horse, Buffalo Bill Cody, Lewis and Clark, Sacagawea. And he was like, we could make these really impressive sculptures. And then it would increase tourism to Dakota. People would want to come here to see a giant sculpture of Lewis and Clark. Yeah. And the idea though, was of sculpting things onto the needles was abandoned because of the poor quality of the granite, the sculptor that was initially like consulted about it. Like, could we do this examined the quality of the poor quality of the granite, the sculptor that was initially like consulted about it. Like,

could we do this examined the quality of the granite and was like, it will not, it'll just crumble. It will not hold up. We will not be able to make these into sculptures. And additionally, there was a lot of opposition from the indigenous groups, like the Lakota who were like, these are sacred. We're not just going to make them into Lewis and Clark. Right. You know, like these are important to us. We're not just going to be like, this is a sculpture of crazy horse. That's not like these, these mean something to us. Yeah. So the idea was abandoned and then they began to look for where, what else could we do? What else could we do that would increase tourism to South Dakota? Because they really wanted people to come visit basically.

And South Dakota with this very unique landscape had become a road trip destination for people with horseless carriages, otherwise known as cars. But that's what they were called. Horseless carriages, otherwise known as cars, but that's what they were called. Horseless carriages. That's so funny. Yes. Kind of like Teslas that drive themselves, except they, you had to drive them. And it was like, let's drive our horseless carriage out to the black Hills. We'll go see the black Hills national forest or wind cave national park. They built a highway along the needles that was like the scenic route. And so they really wanted to encourage more and more people to come and visit. Yeah. So they ultimately decided to, on this one site that was Mount Rushmore, they ultimately

decided on that in part because Charles Rushmore donated some of the money to begin sculpting on that mountain that apparently he decided was named after him. Right. Yeah. That's confidence right there. He donated $5,000 to begin sculpt a sculpture, which is about $74,000 in today's money. And he really thought what we should do is sculpt presidents. And that would be patriotic. That would be unique. And that would make people want to come see them. And so they decided on George Washington, who represents sort of the country's founding. They decided on Thomas Jefferson, who represents the country's growth because he bought, Jefferson oversaw buying the Louisiana Purchase, which like

doubled the size of the United States. They chose Teddy Roosevelt, which represented sort of America's development, kind of like that industrial development, et cetera. And then they decided on Abraham Lincoln, which represents sort of like the preservation of the past. So that was how they decided on these presidents. Interesting. There's been a lot of, over the years, a lot of speculation of like, there should be a woman. We should get a woman.

We should get a woman on, on Mount Rushmore. We should add somebody. In fact, they decided a while ago, a long time ago that like, we should add a woman and I'll tell you in a minute who the woman that they decided like, yes, that is who we should add a woman and I'll tell you in a minute who the woman that they decided like, yes, that is who we should add. Um, and it's still very, uh, it's not likely that they will do it, but there, but there are people who are like, we, we should do it. And they already just decided who it would be. They decided that they would hire this sculptor named Gutzon Borglum. And Gutzon Borglum, first of all, not a name you hear very often. No, anybody named Gutzon? No.

It's spelled G-U-T-Z-O-N, Gutzon. His family was from Idaho and he was a super talented sculptor. He had been hired to create a large sculpture of General Robert E. Lee on Stone Mountain in Georgia. committee that was overseeing the sculpting of the Robert E. Lee statue and eventually parted ways with them, which then freed up his time to work on this other large sculpture in the Black Hills of South Dakota. Okay. So here's one of the problems with Gutz and Borglum is that he was very involved with the KKK. Oh, they were some of the people who were funding the sculpture of Robert E. Lee on Stone Mountain. And it's not clear that he was ever an official member of the KKK, but there are a number of recorded instances where Gutz and Borglum said things about white supremacy and said very negative things

about indigenous people. Very negative. Like he didn't trust 90% of them. He was afraid of the quote, mongrel horde, like a horde of people who were not essentially like not purebloods, who were not essentially like not purebloods ruining the nordic purity of the american west and so he wanted to put u.s presidents there and not anybody of any other descent because he wanted to help represent that purity and not the quote unquote mongrel horde. What a horrible phrase. What a horrible phrase. So they settle on, okay, here's who we're going to put on Mount Rushmore. We're going to get Guts and Borglum to come out here and sculpt them into the mountains. That did not mean, however, that there was not a long running dispute over the land. And here you are out here proposing to dynamite our sacred spaces without our permission after you specifically told us that you wouldn't

do that. So those fights went on for a long time and ultimately they were settled decades later. It took them a number of years to begin planning and fundraising for the beginning of the dynamiting of this cliff base of Mount Rushmore. So Congress eventually had to give its approval. Congress gave its approval in 1925, and they decided that they would allocate some money to the construction of this large sculpture. President Calvin Coolidge actually traveled to the Black Hills for his summer vacation in 1927, and Gutzon Borglum convinced him to deliver this sort of official dedication speech at Mount Rushmore as they were about to blast into the rock for the very first time. And one of the things that Calvin Coolidge said was, we have come here to dedicate a cornerstone that was laid by the hand of the Almighty. On this towering wall of Rushmore in the heart of the Black Hills is to be inscribed a memorial which will represent some of the outstanding features of four of our presidents laid on by the hand of a great artist and sculpture.

The memorial will crown the height of land between the Rocky Mountains and the Atlantic seaboard where coming generations may view it for all time. So that's part of what Calvin Coolidge said at the dedication. And many people don't realize that these sculptures were created with dynamite, with actual dynamite. Yeah. Like how, like how? I have that same question. Like I can't even draw with pencils, but to just be like, we will create a very lifelike depiction with dynamite. I don't, no, I don't understand it. I don't get it. No Congress appropriated $250,000 in federal funds, which again was a lot of money back then for the Mount Rushmore project. And they created this Mount Rushmore National Memorial Commission to kind of oversee its completion. So while it was being built, Gutzon Borglum oversaw 400 workers on the project. You can Google for pictures of the sculpting of Mount Rushmore and see, they look like

little teeny, teeny ants suspended on George Washington's nose. You know what I mean? Like there were people whose job it was to place dynamite and they began by, you know, blasting out huge areas of the rock followed by this process of honeycombing where they would drill holes close together. And then it would allow them to create a more and more refined picture of what would eventually be the president's heads. And eventually 450,000 tons of rock were blasted off the mountainside. In the original plan, I know, isn't that crazy? In the original plan, Thomas Jefferson was supposed to be on the other side of George Washington. But once they started work on it, like if you look at the original drawings,

it's not the layout that it is now. Once they started work on it, they realized that the rock on that side of George Washington was not suitable for sculpting. Like you need, it needs to have certain qualities. And so they had already started it, but they ended up dynamiting off all of the work that they did over there to be like scrap, erase, erase, erase with dynamite. We're not doing that. We're going to put him over here. Wow. So after each face was completed, there was a dedication for the completion of that face. By the way, Roosevelt was the president who was finished last.

So it started with Washington. Then they did Jefferson, Lincoln, and Roosevelt. In 1937, Congress introduced a bill to add the head of Susan B. Anthony, a woman who had really worked for the rights of women, et cetera. And ultimately they decided the quality of the rock, the amount of money it would take. It's just not feasible to put her up there. Just not feasible. So eventually before Mount Rushmore was totally completed, Gutzon Borglum died. He didn't start carving these things. So he was 60 years old. Oh, wow. And he had been working on them now for 14 years. He died before they were done. He had a son whose name was Lincoln

and his son Lincoln oversaw the final completion of the rest of the work on them. And then in 1966, Mount Rushmore was added to the National Register of Historic Places. And there are things like the Lincoln Borglum Museum at the Visitor Center, the Presidential Trail, you know, like there's all kinds of extra tourist things that have been built up surrounding Mount Rushmore. It has also been visited by 10 sitting presidents, which is very, very impressive. The 10 presidents have traveled from Washington, DC to South Dakota. Those presidents are Calvin Coolidge, FDR, Dwight Eisenhower, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, um, both president Bush's Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, and Donald but in 1980, one of the long running legal disputes was finally decided by the U S Supreme court. The case was called the United States versus the Sioux nation of Indians. And the

Supreme court ruled in 1980 that the United States government had improperly taken the Black Hills territory from the indigenous people and that they were entitled to over $17 million in damages. Wow. They ultimately decided we don't want your money. We want our land back. And so there is still to this day, a dispute about the fact that UN properly took this land from us and paying us $17 million does not right the wrong, does not give us back what is important to us, which is our land. This is what one of the historians from that area has to say,

he works at the Sheridan College in Wyoming. He says, putting the president's faces on treaty land, what can we do now to use it to bring people together? And he talks about how the people that work there are sensitive to this issue and that they work to incorporate indigenous people into their programming. They have graduate studies where you can go study the issues at the area. There's Black Hill State University where Lakota people are instructors on this matter. But it's still one of those issues that there's a lot of friction about, like, you took this land from us. And one of the reasons they have continued to call for the return of the land is that it is illegal in the United States to take possession of ancestral lands of Native American groups. So that conflict is unlikely to be resolved in the near future, right?

Because the United States has become very attached to this monument. United States has become very attached to this monument. They invested a considerable amount of money in creating it. Millions and millions of people visited every year. And yet there is still that idea that like, yeah, but you took it from us and it's ours. Right. So I'll give you just a few little fun facts to wrap up. There have been a number of proposals to add more presidents somewhere along Mount Rushmore, maybe not directly next to them, like Susan B. Anthony was proposed, but a number of proposals, like we should expand this. Like the country didn't stop developing once Lincoln was assassinated in 1865. You know what I mean? Like we should continue to add to it in some fashion. And so they have done studies and then

they did a big survey of who should we add? So I'm curious, Kelly, who you think, if we're going to add one president, who do you think should be added to Mount Rushmore? Just, just your own personal opinion. I think Barack Obama, Barack Obama, he was right up there as like, let's add him. And Barack Obama was like, you can't add me to Mount Rushmore. My ears are too big. That was his response. Yeah. That was his response. That was his response. Did he really say that exactly? Yeah, that was his response. Because he was popular.

Yeah, like the first Black president. Right, yeah. So that's one reason that people have said he represents something significant in the United States. So he's in the top three of who people think should be happy. Come on, Brock, get some confidence here with your ears. Your ears are fine. Your ears are fine. You're a beautiful human.

The other two presidents that rank very, very highly on impulse, the number one choice that people want to see added to Mount Rushmore is FDR. And then the number two choice is Ronald Reagan. Huh? Okay. And Barack Obama's number three. That's fascinating. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting just to ask you that, like, who should they, if, if I got to pick, who would I choose? Who would it be? Yeah. Yeah. How about Susan B. Anthony?

I mean, can we? Come on. I get the idea that it's presidents and she wasn't a president. I get that. I get the idea that it's presidents and she wasn't a president. I get that. But maybe someday we will have a female president and maybe not on ancestral lands, but maybe something somewhere, something in her memory. And that would be amazing. I can be like, she was a great president. Yeah. Well, Kelly, tell people where to find you if they want to like join your book club or join your community. Cause you have a great book club. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that. Tell everybody about that. So yeah, I host a free virtual personal development book club for women and it all started for me in middle school. I had an amazing teacher who gave me a personal development book called go for it. And I read it and it was very empowering during

that difficult time. And that was, you know, that's kind of a time when you sort of lose your confidence in yourself. And so that really empowered me throughout my teenage years. But as a teenager and a kid, we grew up poor. Like I had a single mom who was amazing. We lived in a trailer court at a time. And then as that kind of continued on, as I got married and my husband was going to school and we had tons of student loans, we had four kids and we really struggled financially living paycheck to paycheck to the point where one summer we found ourselves having to ask our church to buy us groceries because there wasn't enough money in our account. All of that really can affect the way you feel about yourself and your confidence. And I knew that in order to change your circumstances, you really

have to change your thoughts. And I remembered that, you know, those empowering books I read during that challenging time in middle school. And so here I am as this mom of four who, who was ready for a change who had hit rock bottom. And so I jumped back into these personal development books and those books changed my life. Like I literally went from food stamps to building a seven figure business. And so a few years ago, I created a personal development book club for myself to hold myself accountable to read at least one empowering book a month. And then I thought, wouldn't it be cool if we could hear from the author at the end of the month? So I started asking the authors to jump in our group and speak to us. And it has just grown to thousands of members. So really I'm just a girl on a mission trying to

help women love themselves and reclaim their confidence. And I'm doing it through this free book club that anyone can join. They can join right now at my website at Kelly, france.com slash book club. And it's Kelly with an I. Yes. Kelly with an I. What is your next book going to be? What's our next book? But next, well, the one we're reading right now is actually from, this was a guilty pleasure because I'm a huge bachelor fan. I love that TV series. And so I asked Hannah Brown, who was a bachelor on the show. She just launched a new book. That's already a bestseller and it's called God bless this mess.

And we're reading it right now. And we get to hear from Hannah in this group at the end of the month. So I'm super stoked about that. Fun. Yeah. I like that. It's the really fun group. Well, I hope this was interesting. I hope

it was great. Who knew, who knew all of these things? Also the idea that guts and Borglum was like associated with the KKK. I don't like that. No, no, no. But like, it's fascinating to see, like someone have so much vision that they're like, you know what? I'm just gonna, um, I'm just gonna, you know, dynamite art president faces in the wall. Like you got to have a lot of confidence for that. You got to have a lot of vision for that. A hundred percent. His sculpting skills were fantastic. There's no question there. There's no question there that he's a very skilled sculptor. Obviously I do not have any of that talent. No, I love this state series you're doing. It's so fascinating.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. And Utah is your home state, right? Were you born there? That's where I was born, yeah. But now we're in Southern California. Yes, yes. Well, Utah is coming up.

Ooh. Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters

out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.