Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Surviving the 9/11 Terrorist Attack with Shumi Brody

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

In this episode, Sharon is joined by Shumi Brody, a survivor of the 9/11 terrorist attack on the Twin Towers. Shumi was working in the North Tower when the plane struck the building. As she was escaping down the stairwell, a brief encounter with a firefighter changed her life forever. He told her to keep moving and stay calm. Shumi recounts the horrific sights and utter confusion she experienced that day, while also detailing the acts of love and selflessness she witnessed as people put themselves at risk to save others’ lives. She hopes to tell the story of 9/11 for those who cannot and honor the firefighter who comforted her in a moment of tragedy. As well, Sharon and Shumi discuss how to teach your children about the events of 9/11. For more information on this episode including all resources and links discussed go to https://www.sharonmcmahon.com/podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey friends, thank you so much for joining me today. We recently experienced the 20th anniversary of September 11th. And if you were old enough on that day, that day is seared into your memory. Where were you on September 11th? If you were a child or you weren't born yet, there's so much to learn about September 11th. So today's episode is not a history of how September 11th happened or a sequence of events or any kind of a deep documentary overview. What it is, is an interview with a survivor. It's an interview with somebody who was in the tower that day and what she experienced. So I'm chatting with Shumi Brody.

She's just so generous with her time, with her memories. And I'm going to give you a little trigger warning that if September 11th is hard for you, this might have some hard moments. It's not overtly graphic, but it might also not be appropriate for very young children. So I want to get into this interview because September 11th is a day we have to remember. So let's listen in to my interview with Shumi Brody. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Well, Shumi, thank you so much for joining me today. I am absolutely thrilled to have you here. And also I have so many questions. I'm so grateful that you're willing to talk about

your experiences on September 11th. Thank you, Sharon. I'm really excited to be here. Tell everybody just to start off, what are you up to today? Yeah, first and foremost, I'm a mom of three children. I have a daughter who's 12, and then I have identical twin girls who are six. Professionally, I'm a legal recruiter. So what that means is that I place attorneys, partners, and associates from law firms, and I place them in other law firms where they might be happier. So take us back to New York City on September 11th. What brought you there that day? I had graduated from college in May of 2001. I moved back home to Cleveland and I planned on

finding a job in Cleveland, Ohio, where my family is. And I was going to start law school at Case Western Reserve University the following year. So it just made sense as a natural transition to just work in Cleveland. And then I would just start law school in Cleveland the following year. But my firm that I had worked at during college in New York City, where I went to school, they called me and they said, you know, we know it's only going to be for a year, but we'd love to have you back on a full-time basis. And I was ecstatic. And that law firm was in the North Tower of the World Trade Center. I started in August of 2001, and it was fantastic because my predecessor at the time was going to train me. And his last day was September 10th, 2001. So there was a pep in my step on September 11th

coming into work. And it was such a gorgeous day. I mean, it was beautiful, clear skies. I was really excited to start. I walked into work, very excited. Now the Trade Center, the North Tower is 110 stories high. So you can imagine there are express elevators in there. One that goes from the ground floor to the 44th floor and another that goes from the ground floor to the 78th floor. Now my office was on the 56th floor. So I would take the express elevator to 44 and then transfer right across the hallway. I pushed the elevator up to go to my office on the 56th floor. And at the time I pushed the button, it lit up and the plane hit the building. Of course, at the time, I had no idea that a commercial jetliner had just hit my building. What I thought it was, it just seemed the most logical explanation for what it was,

was that it was an earthquake and the building shook violently and all of a sudden seemed to drop a bit and everyone was silent. Our workday started at 9.30. I was there at 8.45. I just like to get into work early. I just like to get started before people started showing up. I just like to get into work early. I just like to get started. Of course, people started showing up. And so there weren't very many of us on the floor just yet. Being 22, you know, maybe I wasn't thinking clearly. I know in all of my excitement, I wanted to go higher into the building because I wanted to be with my colleagues and try to figure out what had happened, what kind of information, you know, was out there, you know, what this was, what this violent shaking was. So I continued to push the elevator button to go to the 56th floor. Luckily, it wouldn't work. And the light just kept flickering. And it seemed now at this point that the elevator was inoperable, which is lucky for me because now I would have been 12 floors higher. I saw women running without heels down the hallway that separated the express elevator and the local elevators.

And then I saw a large gentleman running through the hall. And I thought, wow, he's sprinting down the hall. I feel like I need to follow him because if he's afraid, there must be something he knows or something he's seen. And so then we see more people starting to run in that direction, but I was on his heels and he entered an emergency stairwell. And so I followed in. And at that moment, we were few of the first people to get in the stairwell

right after the building was hit. I called my mom. I actually made a promise with her that if I were to move to New York City, I would call her every day at 845 when I got to my office. And I went, I'm sitting in my seat just so she knew that I was okay. You know, I was coming from a small suburb outside of Cleveland and me moving to a big city, even though I was there for college, was really intimidating to her. I tried calling her and the call failed. You know, we didn't have the smartphones we do today. It was a Motorola StarTech flip phone. I just couldn't get the line out. And I was, all I was going to do was tell her I'm not in my office yet. Don't worry. There's been some

kind of situation and I'll call you again when whatever's happened is over. People started coming into the stairwell and no one knew what had happened. You know, we can have social media. Did you say what happened or what's going on? I did not. And I will tell you, I was very timid. I was very introverted, kind of just kept to myself and not to mention I was new in the building. I hadn't seen my colleagues yet. And I just wasn't, you know, as forthcoming with talking to people I didn't know. So I didn't ask him. In fact, I just kind of kept my ears open and tried to hear what the other people were talking about, what the other chatter was. And a couple of businessmen had come into the stairwell and they said,

I think it's a kitchen fire because that seemed plausible. We were on the 44th floor and there was enormous kitchen and cafeteria on the 45th floor. So there was some talk about there being an explosion in the kitchen. And I thought, okay, well, there was some talk about there being an explosion in the kitchen. And I thought, okay, well, that was a violent, shaky to be a kitchen fire, but it is what it is, you know, and we didn't know very much more. And I really think because we didn't know anything, it was better for us. I think that if we knew that we were under attack, that the situation in the stairwell wouldn't have progressed as calmly as it did and as orderly as it did.

There were people that would get off on the other floors. I don't smell smoke here. I think I'll just try to get information from here and just wait this out. And that's kind of what we're taught in the fire drills to, you know, go three floors lower than where you are at the time. And then, you know, you get out and there's no smoke there and wait that. But I pushed on. And the reason I pushed on, this happened at the 35th floor. There was a locked door and in the emergency stairwell, which was all very strange. You wouldn't think that there would be any kind of hurdle to overcome if you're in an emergency stairwell, but there was. And

there was a gentleman who worked on the building staff that was trying every single key on his hearing to get this door open. And nothing would work. And he's getting frustrated, but he's determined to get the door open. It's unclear whether it was through his efforts or the firemen on the other side of the door that were able to get the door open. Now, at this time, they're coming up the stairs and I trip a couple of stairs just out of carelessness. Maybe I was shaky from standing. Whatever it was, the fireman lifted me up and he said, you need to keep moving, stay calm, but keep moving. And I took those words to heart. So as people are getting out at the stairwell, you know, doing whatever they're doing

and checking it out and seeing if there's smoke, They all had each other. And I was kind of operating on my own because I never made it to work. I didn't have my colleagues with me. And so, you know, they were kind of going off in pairs or going off in their little group and trying to figure out more information. But I had this firefighter's words in my mind to just keep going. So I did. You know, there was another hurdle and around the 11th floor where the water pipes had burst. And so now water was coming up, you know, it was puddling around our ankles and the light started to go out because the electricity was shot. So we were basically in darkness in this puddling water and we're all holding on to each other's shoulders so that we could try to see

as we're going, you know, try to keep each other safe while we're going down these stairs and we're not able to see. And then it was just a wonderful sight when all this light started coming into the door because we'd reached the lobby. About an hour later from when I started in the lobby to seeing the light and seeing the lobby again, looking at the courtyard. And this gentleman on the building staff was selflessly guiding us out to the back of the building by the river. And I had a chance to look out into the courtyard where I had walked in that morning. There used to be this beautiful globe structure and it was completely destroyed. And I'm looking at it and there's a lot of debris.

I thought this is some kitchen fire from the 45th floor. How is this happening? This man, he was so well-prepared to handle this situation and it was so selfless and it was so well orchestrated. He was just moving everybody along to go to the back, to the back of the building. And so at that moment, when I was outside, is really when the real chaos started. People there know what has happened. Whereas when we were in, we kind of felt a little bit, ironically, a little bit safer because we didn't know. And so there are people running in all kinds of directions. The people that I was with in the stairwell, we didn't know, obviously. And so we're looking up at these buildings and we're seeing these two gaping holes, we didn't know, obviously.

And so we're looking up at these buildings and we're seeing these two gaping holes, not just a gaping hole in mine now, but one in the South Tower as well. And it was at this moment that I thought there's something larger that has happened that I'm unaware of. Amazon's Black Friday week starts November 21st with new deals added every day.

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I'm okay, don't worry. We're going to try to figure this, whatever this is thing out. But then also now I've got this little bit of an anger that she hasn't tried calling me. Does she not know what time it is? She missed a call from me. And of course she was trying to call. We just couldn't get in touch with each other. Around, I believe it was 9.59, right before the 10 o'clock hour, a woman screams, run. The building is coming down. And so if you see the footage of people running and covered in white ash, I was one of those people.

It was such a strange feeling to see our whole building coming down. I was just looking at it a second ago. And it was just, it's, I started to run north. And it was to my good fortune. I actually moved to New York with my little sister who was starting college at the same college I went to. She was starting her freshman year there. So I walked North about seven miles to her dorm to be with her. Everything was shut down. The subways had shut down the ferries. You couldn't get off the island if you wanted to. So there was no other means of really traveling unless it was by cab, which was all filled. And some cabs were obviously nervous about taking anyone. The only way to get there was by foot. north to see my sister. These little, you know, those little security TVs in the convenience stores, the owner had taken one out and put it in the trunk of a car. So now we've got like this whole group of people huddling around this little TV. And that's when I was able to see

that sensation that I felt when I was in the tower was a commercial jetliner hitting my building. So that was just incomprehensible to me that that would even be the case. You had experienced it firsthand, but didn't see the plane hit the building. What was it like to see the footage of that plane hitting the building you were just in? It was horrifying. It was as if I was in the middle of a movie set. It couldn't have been real or it could, it just doesn't happen here. What really went through my mind, it was the firefighter. He knew what was happening and he was heading up and he was going up and did he know the building was going to fall? So it was this, you know, conflict I had thinking I was just in there and now I'm only seeing the first building fall. So my building's still standing

and I'm thinking, I hope he knows to get out. And I hope all those other people, like the gentleman ushering people out of the stairwell, know to get out. There are so many people who don't even know one another helping one another out. I'm scared. I'm worried for people. I'm just, I can't believe what I've witnessed or what I've experienced. So that's where I was at that point and really trying to process what was happening. I saw the second building get hit. And then I also saw the Pentagon get hit on this screen. And then the fourth plane, you know, there was kind of like, well, where is it? Or it's landed or there was kind of just unknown information. My father is

a doctor at a hospital in Cleveland, and he's been there for about 40 years. A nurse had pulled him aside and said, you did tell me your daughter worked at the World Trade Center. Maybe you should come and see this. He, you know, follows her, the lounge and they have the tv on at the time only the first one had been hit and he's looking up at the tv and he said you know i was just happy she had a job and i knew she worked at the world trade center but i never stopped to ask her north south which building you know uh and he said when he saw the first one he said i hope everyone's okay but i'm i'm praying that she's in the second one um and that she's getting out and doing what she needs to do. And then obviously calling my mom to see if she had heard from me. And then he's watching this in the second towers hit. Now,

if you've looked at the, um, footage, you know, the first towers hit right at the top. Well, the second one is hit at an angle, you know, looking at the damage, he's now thinking, okay, now I hope she's in the first and making a run for it. You know, it was this conflict that you just didn't know when you were hear from someone, if they were okay, because at the time everyone thought that whosoever was in the building, wasn't going to make it. And you just didn't hear from anyone. So you're thinking, why haven't I heard any information from the people I love that are in the building? It was about two and a half hours after both buildings fell that I was able to get in touch

with my mom from a pay phone. So in that time, they were coming to grips with the fact that I hadn't made it because that seemed like days to them. So I really think about 9-11 first and foremost for the firefighters and the first responders, and also for my parents who didn't have control over the situation, you know, watching it helplessly, not knowing what to do. I didn't know what was happening. And I felt I did have control of the situation from whatever little information I had, was that I had to just get out of the building. And that's what the firefighter told me to do. To me, I've always felt that I knew I was getting out. I thought there was a kitchen

fire. I thought there was an earthquake. It's only after I got out of the building was I able to discover what had happened. Take me back to that moment when you got out of the building and you turned around and you saw the tower beginning to collapse, you had to have experienced that rush of energy that had to have taken place as it collapsed. And you said you were one of those people who were running away covered in ash. Yeah, it really felt like the end of the world. It was just so sudden. It felt so weird that I was just looking at it minutes ago and I didn't know anyone personally who worked in the South Tower, but I was hoping in my mind that if they saw my tower, were they able to get out knowing, you know, and I didn't even know the sequence of

events, you know, which one was hit first. And I really didn't know what had happened. And if people were making a run for it, like I did, or were they going down the stairwell too? And was the building empty? I just didn't know. And the talk from the police officers and, you know, other people were that everyone that was in there that morning was feared dead. To me, it was another conflict because I was hoping there were people like myself who had all gotten out.

And then there was another conversation that everyone had died. It was just so many unknowns. And we didn't know when that terror would stop. So even when we were outside, I didn't really have time to even consider what is happening, what's going on. I just kept running.

You know, what was I thinking? I didn't understand what we were running. You know, I knew we were running from a building, but I didn't know what was happening. And the people outside that didn't know when the terror was going to be over. Like, are we safe now? Or is there going to be more to come?

Is there going to be something in the subway system? Is there going to be something, you know, coming up, other buildings? I think the fact that there were so many unknowns was the thing that was also terrifying. So did you then make it to your sister's dorm room or where did you go? Yes, I did. I, uh, I went all the way up to school where I had just graduated a few months earlier and she is a very positive

person. We're very close. And I think she knew as headstrong as I am that she's like, I think she's fine. She's making a run for it if I know her well enough. And she was right. Of course, that didn't take away from the relief she felt when she saw me. Her face was one of like confusion. Like what has happened? Everyone is scared and shocked, but no one has had the chance to really process. How could anyone use planes as weapons? And we were all just people going to work. We were going to work and just to do our job. This is an everyday thing. It's Tuesday morning, nine o'clock. I think

it took some time to actually process what had happened. And that was just a very hard thing to understand why this would happen to us. And it wasn't until days as news came out and more information was collected that we started to understand and start to process what kind of feelings we were having about it. Were you and your sister glued to the TV trying to see what was going on? How were you feeling in the immediate hours in the afternoon? Yeah, I was glued to the TV for a day or two. worse in the afternoon. Yeah. I was glued to the TV for a day or two. There was really no escaping it, even if you weren't glued to the TV. So, you know, knowing that I was in it, people had questions, people wanted to talk about it. And I was open to talking about it. And I also thought it was a bit therapeutic for me to do so. And I know that people wanted to help and be there and

wanted to be close to that event. It was also hard to ignore physical things outside. Even if I was seven and a half miles north, the windows were open or I was outside, it was the horrible smell. The wind would carry that smell all the way to where I was in Morningside Heights. What did it smell like? It was decay, you know, of of well, it was burning material. Unfortunately, you know, human beings. So, you know, it was it was horrifying. And and and and I think that was also like a daily reminder for students, you know, because I'm on a campus of what's happening. So, you know, to to young people who have just moved there in the city, I can't even imagine how they were feeling as well. What were the streets of New York like

at the time? Were they empty? Were they full of police officers? What was the environment like on the street? It was somewhat sad. It was somewhat sad. There were some businesses that had closed and there was this lovely restaurant called the Afghan House, which had closed because of racism. And there was this fear of people. And that part was very sad. I felt like it was very misplaced. It was misplaced. And there was no room for it. And instead, we should have really all come together as a community, especially after

the humanity that was shown on that particular day. And it really gave me faith in people watching selfless people help one another out and, you know, knowing they have their own families at home and still doing this for people who don't they don't even know. Thousands of people were saved because of the efforts of the firemen who there were 343 of them that died that day and first responders. And I think we needed to really get back to that feeling of, look, these are the people we were all helping out and being there for one another. It was a strange juxtaposition of feelings and acts that day and then the aftermath of it.

What did you do then? Did you have any co-workers that were also survivors? Did you have co-workers that passed away? Did you call your boss and you're like, what am I supposed to do now? What happened after that? I was grateful to be with a firm that had actually merged with another firm earlier that year. And because of that, there were two offices. So there was a Midtown Manhattan office, and then there was the World Trade Center. And there were always plans for us to become one firm and have our own office space together. So what had happened was I returned to work shortly thereafter. I think it might've been two weeks, maybe even less from the time of 9-11 to actually going back to work.

And that was because we had office space with the other firm that we had merged with in Midtown Manhattan. Many people were displaced as far off cities surrounding New York or were without jobs completely. I was lucky in that respect. As I mentioned before, our workday didn't start until 930 or really people really started arriving around that time. So many people weren't even in the office yet. We did lose a receptionist who was 61. She had to be there very early. She's one of the first people in the office greeting people and answering phone calls and just being a happy face for everyone that comes in in the mornings. The thought is, and we can't confirm, is that she took a break in the stairwell while trying to get out of the building and there

just wasn't enough time. I mean, I can tell you, I was on the 44th floor and it took me an hour to get out. It just really depended what way you got out of the building. Some elevators were working. Some people took those. That was a big risk. Some stairwells were not as crowded and some people were able to get down pretty effortlessly. So it really just depended, you know, what your means was of getting out of the building. And also we had to wait for that locked door in the emergency stairwell to open that ate up 10 minutes of our time. So I think overall, we were in a better position than many others were who had worked there. I stayed in New York for the full year before I moved back to Cleveland to go to law school. And it was very important for me to do so because I wanted to be with my colleagues. I wanted to be with people who were close to that day, you know, who experienced that day. And I found it very comforting and peaceful to be around people who cherish New York and cherish the efforts of so many people that, you know, save thousands of people from that day.

What has the aftermath been like for you? Because the level of trauma that you didn't even know that you were experiencing at the time had to be very significant. What's it been like over the last 20 years to come to terms with that? It's funny that the word is trauma. So anytime anyone asks me, are you suffering from trauma? I say, no, no, it's fine. I've had a really great support system. I've got great friends. I've got a great family and I now have my own children, but it has been brought to my attention very recently that having survivor's guilt is a sort of trauma. And I, for a very long time, felt very guilty about surviving. I have two siblings. They have each other. My parents have

two other children and I was 22 and I was single and I didn't have any children. So to me, I've always felt there were so many other people who had bigger roles in life as a father and mother who didn't deserve to have that. And I would have taken that place just for children to be able to see their parents after coming home from work. So that was a really difficult thing for me to understand. And through my post on TikTok in 2020, I had children who are now adults, children whose parents died in 9-11, reached out to me and wanted to know more and said, you know, we're so grateful for this. You were there. Could you tell us what happened? My father died. He was part of the fire department. And a lot of those comments made me feel at peace, gave me a lot of comfort. I didn't realize that I was comforting them. And so it made me feel a little bit more at peace about feeling this guilt. I shouldn't be feeling this guilt. And it was really because these children, you know, now adults were saying, you need to tell the story because my father can't, or there's a whole new

generation that doesn't know about 9-11 and now you've survived to tell theirs. So, you know, I, I felt, you know, very comforted by all those kinds of comments. What do you think now when you see graphic social media posts or you see footage of it on a major anniversary, like the one we just had, are you able to watch that? Is it too hard to watch? I don't watch the footage, the mornings of, you know, there's always a special on it. I haven't watched any documentaries. I just have a hard time seeing it, knowing that I was in there, knowing that people didn't make it out and that I did. It's still something that, you know, haunts me. And I also have done interviews where they've told me ahead of time, before you go on, we're going to show you some pictures of the trade center. And I said, okay, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Cause I'm not looking at them.

And then I can hear it. And then it's also a trigger. So it's one of those things where I don't have to see it. I can hear it. And it's still, it's still difficult. It's not that I can't watch it. It's just that I choose not to do it. I also realize it's a very important part of our history. And it's a very important part that we need to tell people about in the younger generations. I've done a lot of student interviews for history projects and social studies and world cultures. So that gives me a lot of happiness that they care, that they want to know more. I don't have any sort of issues with talking about it. It's when I watch it, I just, I prefer not to. Yeah. So you have hundreds of thousands of followers. What made you feel like I should tell the story in a public way on social media,

like, I should tell the story in a public way on social media. People need to know about this. What was the catalyst for going public with your story on places like TikTok? Yeah, I came across an audio that was trending on TikTok July of 2020. And the audio was of a song called Somewhere Only We Know. And the topic of the trend was that you have to talk about a hero in your life who doesn't know they're a hero. And so it was immediate to me that I wanted to talk about the firefighter who saved my life. I did everything according to the trend. You know, you put your face in the beginning and then you give photographs of how your life has progressed and how this person impacted it and how this person was a hero. And so I did that and I saved it in my drafts for a while because I was thinking, I don't know. I don't know if anyone wants to hear about this.

It was just that conversation with myself. Like if I put this out there, are people going to say, oh my gosh, it's been so long. Why are we talking about this? That kind of thing. And I did. And I talked to my daughter about it. Who's 12 now. And, and she said, why not mom? You know, this is a way to honor a hero in your life. I did not know that it would have the reception that it did, but I'm glad it did. And I'm glad it did because I was able to connect with those children. The page isn't about 9-11. I do have some posts about it. And I recently posted before 9-11. It was another trending topic. Like, why do you talk about this so much? I'm sorry,

I talk about this so much. Oh, talk about it because it helps others. And so I used 9-11 in that respect too, in that trend. And from those comments, people want to hear more, people want to learn. And so I did a live on TikTok on Saturday on the 11th for about an hour and just answered questions and told the story. So, you know, it's, it's, I hope that it helps others. It certainly helps me. Well, I have children. None of them were alive on September 11th. And, you know, I've been a social studies teacher for many years, taught government for a long time. And it is always a challenge for teachers to know what to say. How many details do I include? How much footage do I show? And of course there are age appropriate levels. What you

talk about to a six-year-old, very different than how you would talk to a 17-year-old. How have you talked to your children about it? So I will say I have told my 12 year old about it. I have not talked to my six year olds about it. And I'm also in that same place. How do I do it? I actually wish I was the one who told my daughter, my older daughter about it first. She actually heard about it in her humanities class first. I told my husband, I said, now it's time to tell her because she already knows about it. I took it from the perspective of when I discussed it with her. And I made it in the way that out of one of my darkest days, it was also one of my brightest. I tell her about the heroic acts of the firemen, the first responders, people helping one another who didn't even know each other, saving each other's lives. So I tell it from that perspective of how much good came out of that day and out of one of the

most tragic days in our history. I always teach it as a way of how we can learn to be kind to one another, you know, how this has restored my faith in humanity. And it is always difficult because it is a horrible event. So I'm still struggling with how to bring it up to my six-year-olds. And I feel like I kind of cheated my way into telling my daughter because she had already learned about it in school. But I also feel that at school, they have left out the horrific events. There are so many horrific details from that day. Do you still hear that firefighter's voice in your mind sometimes?

I feel like I would. Yeah, I do. I do. And I've looked at so many photos of firefighters from that day just to see if there was a firefighter in the North Tower that could have been him, but there was just so many and I just don't feel comfortable saying. So he will just live on in my heart and my mind. Shumi, thank you so much for sharing your stories. I know that this is an event that if people were alive for, it is an emotional story for people to listen to. And if they weren't alive, it's important that they know why this was an important day. It's important. They know the truth of what happened. And I really appreciate you being willing to stand up and be the one who says, I'll tell my story because it does impact other people. Thank you so much. And

I really appreciate the time. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor, would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review, or if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. I cannot wait to have another mind blown moment with you next episode. Thanks again for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast.