Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The Evolution of Social Media with Taylor Lorenz

Episode Date: September 29, 2023

Joining Sharon on the podcast today is well-known reporter Taylor Lorenz, who has written for The Washington Post, The New York Times, and The Atlantic, covering technology from the user perspective as an authority on Internet culture. In her new book, Extremely Online: The Untold Story of Fame, Influence, and Power on the Internet, Taylor takes a nostalgic trip down memory lane beginning with the rise of blogger culture, and weaving through the roads of social media and how the usage of technology has evolved. From home decor and mommy blogs, to the wild west of Friendster and MySpace, to the rise of YouTube and the uncurated aesthetic of TikTok, we see how the internet has evolved over the past decades, and how it is shaping culture today.  Special thanks to our guest, Taylor Lorenz, for joining us today. Host/Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Taylor Lorenz Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me. I am joined today by Taylor Lorenz, who is a very well-known reporter at Washington Post. She's also worked at the New York Times. Her work's been in The Atlantic. And she writes about technology from the user perspective, from your perspective, not from the perspective of like the Silicon Valley CEOs. She has a new history book out about the history of social media called Extremely Online. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. Well, I am very excited to welcome Taylor Lorenz to the show. Thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I've read your work for a long time

in the Washington Post and the New York Times, and you have a new book out. And what an exciting day for you. What an exciting day to finally launch your book baby into the world. How are you feeling about it? I'm just so excited for people to read it. I baby into the world. How are you feeling about it? I'm just so excited for people to read it. I hope they love it. It was fun to get to write this. And it's like a nostalgia trip for anyone that spent time on the internet the past two decades. Yes, it absolutely was. I read extremely online. Of course, the title resonated with me as somebody who has been extremely online for the last 20 years. I was like, well, we're going to need to check this out.

It really was like a kind of a trip down memory lane. And it starts with the rise of blogger culture. And I was like, oh, man, blogger culture. I forgot about the banner ads. I forgot about all of the link parties. It was absolutely such a fun reminder of what the internet used to be like. Yeah, yeah. It was so fun to get to go back when I was reporting it and relive some of those moments because it's recent history, but you forget very quickly. Of course, the internet moves so fast that you're like, that is right.

I totally forgot about that. Okay, first of all, you write a lot about online life. You know, you write a lot about technology, which of course involves the internet. So none of these topics are new to you. But what helped you conceptualize or frame up this idea of, conceptualize or frame up this idea of, I need to write a book about the social history of Al Gore's internet. Yeah. Well, I wanted to write about the rise of the social internet specifically. I mean, I didn't say this in the book. I think it would be thousands more pages to try and conquer the whole internet. But this sort of social internet has really, it's relatively new phenomenon really in the past 20 years. And it's

upended so much of our media, entertainment, information ecosystem and concepts of fame and power and online influence is sort of this like new thing. And so I felt like I wanted to tell the story from like a zoomed out perspective. There's been a lot of books that tell the story of social media through the lens of specific platforms. And I love those books, but I wanted to kind of like zoom out and take a look at the bigger picture and also tell it from the user side, which is the way I cover tech is from the user side. It's not so much about these platforms and like the CEOs that run them. It's more about like, how do people use this technology and how has our usage of technology evolved? I would love to hear the genesis. How did we start using the internet for social interactions? What were even the beginning germ seeds of people deciding that

I can connect with other people online? Well, as I write in the book, it really started with blogger culture. So it was kind of like early aughts and really the late 90s and early aughts when you saw the boom of blogging and you saw what were called web rings, blog roles. There were, which is a way to sort of like wholesale reshare content onto another blog. Actually co-invented by Jonah Peretti, who ended up co-founding BuzzFeed. And yeah, it sort of just evolved from there. Obviously like algorithmic feeds played a huge role in kind of reshaping that landscape in the mid 2010s, but it all started with bloggers. What were the most popular blogs about pop culture? I remember a lot of home decor blogs and mommy blogs. And to me, I was very immersed in that sort of ecosystem. But maybe I'm missing a chunk of what was really out there because it was a topic that

didn't interest me or it was the wrong phase of my life. What were some of the most popular topics that really helped to grow this concept of blogging? So it started, I mean, a lot of early blogs were about technology itself, obviously. And then, as you mentioned, it sort of exploded into every area of life, fashion, beauty, art, culture, music, everything. I write about a lot of a sort of mommy blogger culture because those women were some of the first to sort of develop this personality driven model of media where it's sort of like building this personality, monetizing it, pioneering those, these new sort of revenue models. So I think the mommy bloggers were like the most influential out of that whole blog world. But of course you

also saw, you know, fashion bloggers suddenly sitting front row. And it was, I mean, the bloggers were like the first to kind of start to really upend this traditional media ecosystem that we had been with for decades prior. Some of the bloggers that were very popular in the early aughts now have media empires, like the pioneer woman, you know, like where she has food network shows and huge merch lines with Walmart and she has her own physical restaurant and store. I mean, like some people have become rich and famous in ways that they probably would have never had access to prior to this time period. It would re-drum and have been plucked from obscurity prior to the advent of the cooking slash mommy blog. I don't know.

I don't, I mean, I can't say definitely not, but dang, it really helped her. Oh, a hundred percent. I think what's so fascinating about this whole like explosion is just like people like Rhi or others that just like, they would would they probably wouldn't have actually found their way into these traditional systems or entertainment like food media or whatever. And so I just think it's really interesting. We get this new sort of crop of talent. And of course, that changes our notions of fame and what's possible on the Internet and like who can build a business and become a brand. And I think, you know, obviously she's one of the more successful women out of that cadre of women,

but it's entrepreneurism, ultimately. Social media is wildly controversial today. Most people love it, and they love it more than they are willing to admit. Most people love it. love it and they love it more than they are willing to admit. Most people love it. Although a lot of people would say, I just hate what social media has done to society. I hate what social media has done to culture. I hate what it's done for people's mental health. I hate the virality of information. We sure have a lot of complaints about something that we spend like eight hours a day using voluntarily. I'm sure

you're quite familiar with list of said complaints. Oh, a hundred percent. I have them myself. I mean, I think there's a lot to be fixed about the current social media landscape. I think social media has been incredible and liberatory and amazing in a lot of ways. And it's also been horrible and leading to a lot of sort of negative things in the world, just personally and sort of on a broader level when you think about democracy or freedom of speech and things like that. So yeah, I think we're right to be critical, but I like kind of also celebrating the creativity of internet users and looking at the possibility of the internet as well. I'm ultimately like a tech optimist. What were the early, early, early social media platforms? I think most people would be like

MySpace, but there were more than just MySpace, right? So, you know, I think a lot of people associate early social media with MySpace or Friendster and Facebook. I mean, I talk a lot about blogging as social media and also the rise of platforms like Tumblr. There was a lot of sort of small niche media and also the rise of platforms like Tumblr. There was a lot of sort of small niche social platforms, but I would say it wasn't until the 2010s that you saw a real explosion in social technology where, I mean, there were so many apps that I couldn't even get into in my book that were creating new models of social media. I was thinking recently of Path. Do you remember Path? No. Oh, that was an app for a while. It was, you could only have 200 friends and it was sort of like a stripped down version of Facebook almost for mobile.

There's just so many small apps that went by the wayside that kind of were innovative in their own ways, but ultimately failed to scale. Do you remember StumbleUpon? Of course, StumbleUpon and dig.com. I mean, these were early aggregator sites that really sort of helped you. Stumbleupon was great because you kind of just would, it was like an early web discovery tool. Yeah. It's a little bit like how Instagram suggests posts and videos you like based on your interests where you're like, I did want to see that baby elephant video, even though you're not following that account. Social media is so good at predicting what you might like.

And the more you use StumbleUpon, the better got at predicting what you liked. And if anybody does not remember what it is, you literally press a button that said Stumble, and it would take you to a random web page that it thought you might be interested in. And sometimes you'd be like, this is a knitting pattern of how to knit a pattern for your greyhound. You know, like some of the things were absolutely delightful, so quirky, and you kept feeding it information of like, I liked it, I didn't like it. And it just got, it kept getting better and better. It was, you know, it's so funny to look back at those early discovery platforms because they weren't really algorithmic.

There was this level of randomness to it. I wrote a story recently about Google Search, actually, and how people don't rely on Google as much as they've relied more on recommendations for Reddit or TikToks or things now. But I found this guy who studies search engines, and he was telling me all these unique search engines that kind of surface interesting results. And I was trying some of them out. And it's just fun to use a product where things are delivered to you randomly, because so much these days is algorithmically tailored to, like you said, give you exactly what you want, right? The TikTok algorithm is going to give you exactly what you want, right? The TikTok algorithm, it's going to give you exactly what you want. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, how, how, how well do you know me? It's a little bit scary. It's a

little bit scary. Sometimes TikTok gives you things you didn't even know you wanted. And then you're like, I did need that in my life. I did need that video, that ASMR video of somebody making rosemary focaccia bread. I did. You don't even, sometimes TikTok doesn't, it just tells you what you need. I would love to hear more about the rise of YouTube because YouTube is really unique in the media landscape. It was unique at the time and it still is today in terms of its dominance, in terms of its relationship with creators. And one of the things that I found interesting in your book is talking about how platforms that had early large amounts of success focused on their relationship very often with creators,

the people who were going to be creating the content that was going to draw in the users. And YouTube still has a reputation for being one of the more creator friendly platforms. Tell us all of the inside tea about YouTube. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting. I talk so much about the rise of the YouTube Partner Program, which ended up sort of being this new revenue model for online creators, where they sort of shared ad revenue that generated off each video with the content creator. At the time, it was still pretty revolutionary. I mean, a lot of tech problems still refuse to do this basic thing.

And I think YouTube has really leaned into the creator model early. They were the first platform to really recognize the power of creators at scale and cultivate that community and invest in that community. And I think it's paid off for them massively because now they have the most stable platform. I mean, look, TikTok is way better for discovery. YouTube has dropped the ball in so many ways. It's crazy that they still don't have like mobile editing tools and things like that. But in terms of the revenue and sort of revenue model for creators, I think it was ahead of its time. There's a reason creators are constantly trying to push you to their YouTubes, right? It's because like they, so many creators, if you watch their video, like, oh my God, we have an exciting announcement. And

then they like tease it, tease it, tease it. And then they end it with like full video on YouTube. And of course, the reason for that is they're trying to pique your curiosity. And then they're trying to actually make some money on their YouTube video because platforms like TikTok, if you are in their creator program, pay so abysmally in comparison to the other platforms. Yes. Yes. I think right now we have this crisis where it's just, it's so hard to make a living as a content creator online. And it's really, it's hectic. It's competitive. These platforms give you pennies, you know, like you can generate millions of TikTok views and you get like $5. It's such a broken ecosystem. And so I think that we are starting to see creators

actually generate a lot of revenue outside of these platforms because they can't rely on these platforms. It's like they're launching product lines or they have their own Amazon storefront for affiliate revenue purposes, things like that, where it's like almost opting out of the revenue. Like they don't expect revenue from the platforms anymore at this point. Yeah. And some people have complaints about platforms like YouTube, where when they opt into the creator fund, they feel like, I don't know what the evidence is for this, but they feel like their videos then get throttled by TikTok, where they then suddenly, I got into the creator fund, suddenly my videos were, you know, one 15th of what my video views used to be.

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app and wherever you get your podcasts. What do you see as some of the most important social trends to come out of this extremely online culture that has developed over the last 20 years? It has been an absolute revolution to society. What do you think are the perhaps most important ways and perhaps the most damaging ways that being extremely online has impacted? That's such a good question. I mean, it's really helped. I think a lot of people find their voice and have more autonomy over their own online presence. They can speak their mind and reach people at scale. That's great. That's a wonderful thing. It can also be a bad thing, I guess, the bad ways. The downside, I think, is also it's tied to the good side, right? Is that anybody can reach anybody at scale. That can be used very negatively or it can

be very positive. It can be used to erode our democracy or it can be used to speak truth to power. And so I think it's like, there's not, it's not good or bad. It's just sort of, it's a tool and it's all about how it's used. Yeah. You mentioned in the book too, that one of our biggest human desires is for connection. It is an innate human desire. All you got to do is read a Brene Brown book and you know that is true. You're like, that's right. I get it. Our desire for connection is so strong. And that is one of the things that social media does for us is it allows us to connect with people that maybe we would have

had no opportunity to connect with in the past. And so many people report that they make actual real friends. They make actual real connections. Sometimes creators develop parasocial relationships with their followers. And that desire for connection in many ways is sated by social media. But you mentioned, like, for example, on January 6th, the people invading the Capitol seemed almost more focused on documenting their experience for social media than actually trying to save the Republic, which is what some of them viewed themselves as doing. I think, you know, I use that example because it just seemed like the most kind of ridiculous example. I obviously like the, the smaller examples are just like in everyday life, right? Like you're on the beach and you're more focused, like sort of on seeing something like the beautiful sunset through your phone and taking a picture like you're at a concert and you're like recording it rather than enjoying the moment but I just at that moment it just was so crazy to me because I you know here's

this like you said these people sort of talking about how they're gonna take down the government but they're really concerned about kind of like getting content out about that. And I think it just speaks to the way that we sort of prioritize content above all else, documenting it. I really feel like the online world is the default reality. And so I think that what that speaks to is like, here's this thing, we're storming the Capitol. It's this very like IRL kind of thing, but it has to be manifested online because that's where things really matter. Right. So we have to get the content online because the internet is what really matters. Like if you did all of that, but there wasn't, but it didn't happen

on the internet. Like you didn't document it on the internet. Like, did it happen? So I think, yeah, I mean, my book sort of talks about that shift and sort of like how we got to that point. That's such a great point that the internet is the default reality that it picks or it didn't happen, right? Like get some selfies with the Capitol police, video yourself breaking the window with a whatever flagpole so that you can post it later. And then of course be found by the FBI and be arrested and sentenced to prison. There's that part. But nevertheless, you're absolutely right that the default position was not take over the government. It was document myself attempting to take over the government. Picks or it didn't happen. What mattered was the online reaction. The online reality was the most important thing. Exactly. And sort of my book kind of

charts these moments of like, how did we get to this point where like, this is the world that we live in and kind of like, why, why is that people sort of, I think it's actually subconscious often, right? Like notions. And again, I think we, we all do this to an extent in our daily lives. I would love to hear you chart some of the, the journey that we have taken as a, as a species, as a humanity to have moved so much of our real lives, our real, like, as you just said, what the default reality is online. What has it taken for us to go from meeting with our friends for a glass of wine after work to existing almost wholly online? What did it take for us to go from point A to point B? It took a lot of technological innovation, but it also took a lot of innovation from users,

from content, from people pushing things forward and kind of setting new behaviors. Like with every tech development, right? There's like this new, maybe new product or new social platform or some sort of technology that's introduced. And then we see how people use it and how people use it really defines the medium. And it defines what that platform ultimately becomes. This is how social products operate. It's like this very symbiotic relationship with their user base, which is very different than a lot of other technology products where there's not that feedback from the user that shapes the product. There's not that feedback from the user that shapes the product. And so I think that like, it's a little bit of a slow boil.

And that's how, you know, when I talk about this book and I tell people, I wrote this like history of social media or something like a lot of people think, oh, well, that's just like the past five or 10 years. I mean, I started the book in that dawn of the millennium, right? Like the year 2000, because that's truly when the sort of the seeds of the culture that we live in now are planted. I mean, one thing I talk about in the book too, is just like the launch of Facebook newsfeed. A lot of times when you're thinking of like influencer culture, you don't think of Facebook and you don't really think of Facebook newsfeed because that's not where like influencers live generally. But what the Facebook news feed launch did is it really taught all of us

to post for a public audience. It taught all of us to kind of like post with the eye of this being consumed publicly and, you know, in a way and like served to people, like your content served up to people. And I just think that's sort of this kernel of this influencer culture that we live in now. Like that taught all of us to kind of like post for public consumption, which previously a lot of people didn't do. Like that wasn't their first inclination. And that certainly wasn't what they were thinking of

when they were capturing moments. I look back even at even early MySpace, going back and looking so much of that's been wiped, but I was looking at friends' photos from back then. And it's like with digital cameras, you were thinking more about capturing the moment. You weren't necessarily thinking of that photo and how is it going to live online? Where is it going to live online? And sort of like these subtleties around photography. There's a great social media theorist called Nathan Jergensen who wrote a great book about kind of photography and social media and those effects. But there's just all these like little moments that kind of

happen, the shift from digital cameras to phones, the frontward facing camera, which was added, I think, in 2010, that allowed us to start taking selfies, put ourselves in photos, all these little things. Yeah. And it really, you also touch on this and I've noticed this so much that different sort of generations of social media users still largely use social media differently than the generations that come behind them. The millennial obsession with the curated Instagram feed where like every picture needs to fit a theme. My theme for the month of June is pale pink and aqua and all my pictures will be pale pink and aqua themed. So when you land on my Instagram, it looks perfect. And that is what will make you want to follow me is my perfection. But Gen Z, I have noticed that is actually a turnoff.

Well, yeah, I wrote about this actually in 2019 in this piece called the Instagram aesthetic is dead that I wrote for the Atlantic. And part of it is Gen Z, but I think actually it's bigger. It's much bigger than Gen Z. I think it gets associated with Gen Z because Gen Z kind of started to use social media more in that era. But these are actually shifts that happened quite before that. I mean, even with the launch of Instagram Stories, which is a very millennial product, and Snapchat, which was a very millennial product, it was popularized in the early 2010s, there's this notion of ephemerality and video content. And video content, it's a lot. I mean,

now with AI, it's a little bit easier to like face tune your videos, but especially back then you, you couldn't edit your videos. So you suddenly had these new forms of sharing on Instagram and social media where it was inherently less filtered. And that resonates more with people, you know, people, I think, tired very quickly of the hyper polished, unattainable social feeds that we all saw and they were moving towards this. And I think then when Gen Z kind of came of age on the internet, that just like accelerated every trend. Also TikTok, which rewards that more like sort of authentic engagement. It's very hard to create a hyper curated aspirational TikTok feed, although many people do have those, but it's more sort of like the minority.

although many people do have those, but it's more sort of like the minority. Yeah. In fact, I've noticed that the trend has absolutely swung. The pendulum has swung so far away from the hyper curated feed that people's videos do better if the freeze frame is an unflattering picture of them. Have you noticed this? It used to be like, here's my video. And then like a perfect smile, perfect pose. Now you can see this on YouTube. You can see this on Instagram. The thumbnail or the freeze frame is often intentionally unflattering or weird. The pendulum is swung all the way to the other side. It's so interesting, just like how these things flip and evolve. But I think people want that authenticity and reality or whatever. Of course, what is authenticity even? Because we're all performing, whether we like it or not, whether we're performing authenticity or performing sort

of aspirations. It is. It's very interesting. If you, especially on YouTube, the thumbnails are like borderline outrageous. I feel like we're in a crazy era of YouTube thumbnails right now. And I just thought that they added the ability to AB test YouTube thumbnails too, which I think is interesting. But I mean, I feel like I would love to read like an art critics take on sort of the evolution of YouTube thumbnail. Cause I think that format that Mr. Beast is cracked of like the guy like, ah, and then like the crazy back. I mean, they're like parody level at this point, but it's what performs. Right. They wouldn't keep doing it if it didn't work. Yes. Yes. You're absolutely right. That it's almost like if Weird Al made all of your YouTube thumbnails where it's just like,

why is it a pile of spaghetti and a man looking like a pile of spaghetti or a pile of money, somebody looking crazy. Maybe there's like fire. It's like spaghetti and a man looking shocked with with pyrotechnics. That's what people click on on YouTube. No more like cute girl whose hair is in a ponytail. That's going nowhere. You got to have some kind of shock value. Somebody needs to have some kind of curiosity being piqued in the first half a second or your video is not getting clicked on. 100% yes. I would love to hear your take on what is next.

Where is social media going? There's lots of speculation about what's going to happen to Twitter slash X. You probably finished this book well before Threads debuted. But I am very curious, as somebody who writes to the user side of tech, professionally, what are the trends that you see emerging? I don't think that there's going to be necessarily a one-to-one replacement of Twitter. I think that people are definitely contracting. I think people want more closed spaces. They don't just want to reach everyone overnight at scale. Like

I think this era of every single post being default public and permanent is waning. And I think people want to spend time in more like group chats. You see this with the rise of platforms like discord and just more like sort of curated communities, like reaching the people that actually care about your content, not just reaching everyone. I definitely see that in my own community that I have a private group and private book club and open registration for it three times a year. We just finished registration last week. It sold out in a day. I definitely think people are hungry to find real like-minded friends, real like-minded people. They don't want everything they say to go viral. Sometimes they just want to be like, here's a look at how cute my new puppy is. They want to talk about like, I just feel really sad today. My daughter had a

whatever hard day at school. Like they are craving that authentic connection that is almost impossible to get when every single post is created for public consumption. Absolutely. What do you hope that the reader takes away, Taylor? What do you hope that the reader is like, oh my gosh, I learned X, or I hoped I would find out Y and I did. What do you hope the reader takes away from extremely online? I hope we can all kind of like, well, one, I hope they're educated about the internet. I want, I think there's a lot of women, especially that have been written out of internet history. And I really want to make sure people understand that like women built the, what's called the

creator economy. Now, like this was built by women, mothers, beauty vlogger. It was a very female-dominated industry. And a lot of that has been written out of Silicon Valley history. Also that users have a lot of power over social platforms. It's not, again, social platforms are this unique sort of tech product where it's not just like we build the product and people use it. The people using it shape what it becomes. They shape the product. And I also just like, I love the internet. I have to say it's toxic and bad, and there's all these really bad problems that we need to fix. And I talk about those problems in my book, but I hope people have a little bit of optimism about tech. I think that there's been a lot of rightful criticism and negativity on the

tech industry. They deserve it. Silicon Valley deserves all the criticism, but you know, ultimately the internet itself, I mean, you're talking about stumble upon, like there was this era of creativity and independence and freedom, especially in the early internet that I really hope we can get back to. So interesting. Well, I really appreciate your time. Which social media platforms are your favorites to use? Well, I'm an Instagram. I'm a millennial. So I still like Instagram. I'm just at Taylor Lorenz.

I'm on TikTok. I love TikTok. TikTok and Instagram are my favorite, but I did just launch a YouTube channel. So I'm also getting into there. I'm making videos about tech and online culture and kind of expanding on a lot of what I talk about in the book. Where would we find the YouTube channel? It's just youtube.com slash Taylor Lorenz. I'm just at Taylor Lorenz on every platform and

I'm on threads too, if that lasts. Will your YouTube thumbnails have piles of spaghetti and money being lit on fire in the background? I'm going to have to adopt a new YouTube aesthetic. Yes. Catch me on YouTube, you know, slash grumpy cat slash, you know, like you just, I think you should take every dead internet trend, make it your thumbnail, like, you know, grumpy cat, and then add piles of money being lit on fire in the background. That seems to really pique people's interest. I think you've cracked a winning code. Yes. Grumpy cat.

Grumpy cat burns a pile of money. There it is. That's going to be your new YouTube thumbnail. Sold. Thank you so much, Taylor. I really appreciate your time. Yeah, this was so fun. Taylor Lorenz's book,

Extremely Online, comes out on October 2nd. If you are listening to this podcast on release day, it'll be out in just a few days. You can go pre-order it right now. And I hope you will always consider ordering from bookshop.org, which supports independent bookstores. Thanks for being here today. The show is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please be sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. And if you could leave us a review or share this episode on social media, those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here today.