Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The Importance of Preserving Democracy with Senator Mitt Romney

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

In today’s episode, Sharon talks with one of listeners’ most-requested guests, Senator Mitt Romney. A current Senator of Utah, Romney has a long history of public service, and chats candidly with Sharon about his unique personal history with business and politics, as well as advice his father gave him when he was young. Senator Romney also shares some insight into how Senate members are placed on committees, his interest and work in foreign diplomacy, and what he feels U.S. citizens can do to protect and uphold the democracy of our country. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Whether you're helping that special person take their content up a notch or adding that extra quality to your own shoots, Canon's got you covered. Shop the Level up sales event today at canon.ca. Hello, friends. Welcome. Always delighted to have you with me. And today I am extremely excited to be sharing this conversation with you. My guest today is the former governor of Massachusetts, the former Republican nominee for president, and a current senator from the beautiful state of Utah, Mitt Romney. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast.

I have to say that you are perhaps my most requested podcast guest right behind Taylor Swift. I'd rather watch Taylor Swift. That's for sure. Right behind Taylor Swift is Mitt Romney. People have been bothering me for more than a year. And so I'm so happy to finally fulfill their request and such an honor to meet you. Thank you so much, Sharon. Very kind. Well, people have so many things they'd like to know. So I'm just going to jump right into it. What was it like growing up in a political family? Well, actually, you know, I sort of see myself as having grown up in a corporate America

family because my dad, during my most formative years, and that's sort of between, I don't know, eight and 16, he was first a vice president and then a president of a car company. They made Ramblers and now Jeeps. This was a very popular car during that time period. He was the first advertiser on the Wide Wide World of Disney. What was it called? Anyway, it was a Sunday night show on Disneyland.

Yes, yes. And so I thought all about cars. I grew up in Detroit. And I grew up with my dad to the office. And he would show me the models that they were working on for the coming years. We'd talk about the difference between the Ramblers and the Fords and the Chevys and the Plymouths and what our advantages were and disadvantages and so forth. So that's kind of how I grew up. And then when I turned 15, almost 16, my dad decided

to get involved in politics. And that was a big shift. And he pulled me into it. As a matter of fact, he had to collect signatures for his run for governor of Michigan and for his effort to establish a new constitution in the state. And so we would pull up to a softball game with a clipboard. He'd send me out to go collect signatures. So I sort of saw politics from the ground up. And, you know, he had advice for me, which may seem a little strange. He said, Mitt, don't get involved in politics unless your kids are raised and unless you're independent financially.

And I thought, well, why is that? And he said, well, on finances, you wouldn't want to have to depend on winning an election to pay your mortgage, because that might turn your head and have you say some things to get elected that you may not really feel are right. And with regards to kids being raised, he said, you know, if you're elected, your kids may think there's something special because their parent is in politics and an elected official. And so he waited at least until my friends knew me for the jerk I was and didn't change their perspective. So I saw politics obviously firsthand, but really I saw business before that. And that's probably what happened in my own career, which is I spent most

of my career in business as well. Did you, at the time that your dad was running, were you like, oh, I love it. Someday this is going to be me. Or did it take a while for you to come to that realization? I never imagined I would be involved in politics. I really didn't know. I, one, I had five kids. And so the idea that I would wait until they were raised, it's like, well, that's never going to happen. I'm never going to be rid of these children. That's right. And then, you know, to be independent financially, I had a good job.

I worked in a consulting firm. We would save money. But the funny thing was, when I would look at our finances, I don't care how much we saved, it seemed like I would never become independent financially. And then I got involved in a business which was very unusual, which is to participate in venture capital and private equity. I didn't know how successful that would be, but it turned out to be far more successful than I would have imagined. And it opened the door for me to get involved in politics.

successful than I would have imagined. And it opened the door for me to get involved in politics. What made you want to run for governor when you finally decided to get involved in politics? And I want to hear too about the differences between working as a senator and working in a different branch of government at the helm of a state. So what made you first of all decide governorship? at the helm of a state. So what made you first of all decide governorship? That's what I want to pursue. Well, I'll begin by telling you it's a lot better to be a governor than it is to be a senator. Is it? Oh, yes. No question. No question about that. Yeah, because you're at the head of the state. You're not trying to make stuff happen with hundreds of other people. Well, the nice thing about a governor is that you're in an executive position. You can make decisions. You can work with the legislature, but you can get things done that improve people's lives. As a legislator, you have to work with a lot of other people. And even if you can get the other legislators to agree, then you've got to get the president or the governor, as the case may be, to go along with it as well. It's a far more laborious process. It's better being the governor. I remember George W. Bush saying to me one day, you know, being a governor

is the best job in America. And he said, well, almost the best. So yeah, I hadn't expected to run for governor. I was in Utah helping organize the Olympic Winter Games of 2002 in Salt Lake City. helping organize the Olympic Winter Games of 2002 in Salt Lake City. And the head of the Republican Party of Massachusetts flew out to see me. And she said, Mitt, we have a Republican governor, but her approval rating is now 13%. Your work at the Olympics has given you visibility in the state. We really need you to come back and run for governor. And I gave it some thought. My wife and I considered it and decided to get involved because there were some things I wanted to do and some things I wanted to do for the state I was living in, Massachusetts. We'd lived there 40 years. And so I put together a list of what I wanted to do.

It turned out to be some 93 different things. Obviously, some are more important than others. Yeah. But a desire to try and make a difference in the lives of people I cared about drew me into the race. And, of course, the fact that I thought I had a shot of winning, even though Massachusetts is a Democrat state, Republicans are nonetheless able to win now and then. And I figured that might be the case for me. Well, it does speak to your broad appeal. In a state that tends to lean left, it speaks to your broad appeal that you were able to appeal to enough

voters on the other side of the aisle that you earned their vote. And I think that that is a theme that you've carried throughout your career, that you've always wanted to extend across the aisle. Do you agree? Well, I do think that I tend to be an acceptable or perhaps even an attractive candidate for people that are more towards the middle. I tend not to be on the extremes, although I think our parties are both moving more toward the extremes. In some respects, I feel like I don't have a political home these days or particularly large home because my party has sort of moved MAGA, if you will, more towards President Trump. The Democratic Party has moved more towards Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren and AOC. I still think that most people in America prefer folks towards the middle, but the primary voters, the people that are really the fire and passion in our respective practical. It's not sustainable. And in many cases, it can be dangerous. It can be unsafe. And I agree with you that most people just want like a sensible person who has some good ideas like that could possibly work. And that is becoming

more and more difficult to find in America, it seems like. Well, you know, in the past, people who were running for office worked very hard to get towards the middle with the idea of being able to convince independent voters and perhaps some soft voters in the opposition party to come join them. And that would give them enough votes potentially to win a general election. What's happened instead over the last, I don't know, 10 or 15 years is that political scientists and consultants have concluded, hey, you don't need to get the people at the middle. You just need to get the people in your base really excited and get them to go out and vote. So if you can fire up the base, why you don't need to worry about the middle.

why you don't need to worry about the middle. And so you're seeing people, particularly in primaries, appeal with the message to the most rabid members of their party, the most active, to get them to go out and vote. And that seems to be a winning strategy as well. And so we've moved away, I think, from a lot of candidates appealing towards the middle. And I think that's perhaps contributed to the sense of division we have in the country. And it's one reason I think it's become more difficult for legislation to make it through Washington, which is the people who ran and got elected, ran based on the support of the wing of their party. When they come to Washington, they want to keep that group animated and fully supportive. And it tends to have right wing and left wing people finding it hard to work together. Very true. People in my community tell me this all the time.

I've done very unscientific polls where people have said roughly between 60 and 75% of the people in my large, almost million person community, they feel politically homeless. Just like you were saying, like, I don't, maybe I'll vote a little left or a little right, but I don't like any of my choices in particular. You know what I mean? And I, I would love to hear your take on what can Americans do if they are feeling politically homeless, if they are feeling like, I don't, none of these candidates are representing my views. What can Americans do to make that better? Well, Sharon, I'm open to your advice in that regard and to your listeners advice.

I've decided to stay involved in the political process, in part because I'm concerned about the division that we're seeing. I identify with your listeners who feel that they don't necessarily have a political home, that the two parties are further from where they would like to be. And the only thing I think we can do is to support those people who we do feel represent our values and represent our point of view on issues. That doesn't mean we're going to win, but over time, if more and more people get behind those candidates that they agree with and that they think bring the kind of support and answers that we're looking for. That's the only way we'll ultimately be successful. But right now, it's

kind of hard to see that trend accelerating. It seems like more often the trend towards divisiveness and towards the extremes seems to be what's going on. And by the way, to a certain degree, I hope people recognize we are what we listen to and what we watch. And if you watch on social media or on the cable networks, people who are shouting and who are angry, that's going to be divisive. If instead you're open to points of view on both sides of the aisle and you listen to people who represent different points of view, why you'll find that you're able to sleep a little bit better at night, at least. I couldn't agree with you more on that, that what you're putting in to your brain is what becomes your thoughts. Your thoughts become your actions out in the real world. And so if we want better actions out in the real world, we need better stuff coming in up here.

Yeah. I mean, I think for most Americans, they can look at the challenges around them. We all do that and say, I wish I could fix this. I wish I could fix that. But the reality is what we can fix is the relationship we have with our friends, with acquaintances, with our children, with our family. And if we show a degree of competency and respect for others, we pass that on. And we're not going to change the world necessarily, but we can change the lives of a few people we care deeply about. And by the way, feel better ourselves while we're doing it.

So true. I would love to hear about how, so governors, people in my community always love a little peek behind the scenes and people are very curious about the committee system in Congress. And they're curious, how do you get on committees? Do you sign a little list and you're like, choice A, foreign relations, choice B, how did you get on the committees that you're on? Well, each party has its own process for committee assignments. And in our party, each of us sends a little note to the majority leader, that's Mitch McConnell. And we're allowed to choose one A committee and a couple of

B committees and a C committee. We each get four or five committees. And typically you get the first choice that you have. If you have an A committee you want to be on, you get the first choice of that. My first choice was to be on the Foreign Relations Committee. My second choice was the, it's called the HELP, H-E-L-P Committee, H for health, health, education, labor, and pensions. So I was put on that committee. And then also Homeland Security. I got all the committees I requested.

I probably would have requested all A committees had I been able to do that. But that wouldn't, we'd all be requesting the same ones. That's right. They narrow us down. That's right. And the A committees are foreign relations, appropriations, intelligence, armed services. These are the A committees, and you only get one of those typically unless you've been around a long time, and then you might get two. I would love to hear more about what about foreign relations?

What about that committee made you choose it as your first selection? Well, I'm concerned about a number of things going on in the world that will affect the lives of Americans long term and particularly my kids and my grandkids. But perhaps at the top of my list is the emergence of China as the world's global superpower. And I know that's hard for us to really wrap our arms around because everybody listening to your podcast has only been alive during a time when America was the leader of the world, when we had the strongest economy, the strongest military, the most up-to-date weaponry, so we don't have to

worry about someone threatening us, when we sort of set the rules of the road. And for a while there, of course, we were in conflict with the Soviet Union. We didn't know we were in such a strong position. Turns out we were much stronger than we thought. They ultimately folded. So we've really enjoyed this sense of being the hegemonic power, the superpower of the planet for a long, long time. That's really all we've known. And that is probably not going to last forever, in part because China has one huge advantage, four times as many people as we have. And I don't know that people recognize this, but we talk about the GDP, the size of our economy. It's the product of two very simple numbers, how many people are in

your workforce and how much each person produces output per person. So if you have 1.4 billion people, you're going to have a lot more people in your workforce. And as they become more productive and have more up-to-date technology, they're going to be able to produce more stuff than we do. And their economy will ultimately be larger than ours. Now, if their economy is larger than ours, then they can afford a military larger than ours. And they can also tell people around the world, if you want to sell stuff to us, the biggest economy in the world, these are the rules you got to play by. So China is on track to become this superpower. And it's a real shift for us. And freedom itself could be in the balance.

And so I wanted to be on this committee because foreign relations will be the place where we will develop strategies to make sure that in a world where China gets stronger and stronger, that we don't lose our position as the leader of the free world, that we encourage China to play by the rules, not to oppress others, not to invade others, as Vladimir Putin is invading his neighbor Ukraine. And so I want to use the power which we have, and hopefully will always have, to, if you will, shape the world such that we have fewer wars, more prosperity, and the experience of freedom continues to exist in our country and hopefully in other countries as well. Hey Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility.

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And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind-the-scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It is my girl in the studio! Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests, and we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments.

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are your thoughts as a senator on Foreign Relations Committee? Well, you know, the truth is that any country, including our own, always puts our own interests first. We should all do that. So when I hear the term America first, I chuckle. I know that means different things to different people. But I just note that regardless of your political persuasion, I hope if you're an American, you put American interests first. But it is my view that putting America's interests first includes having strong alliances. Now, why do I say that?

includes having strong alliances. Now, why do I say that? Well, because we can have our interests fulfilled if we have strength, and there's strength in numbers, as they say. So if we look, for instance, at what's happening with regards to Ukraine and Russia, if our allies in Europe and around the world all went their own way, and we were the only one to sanction Russia, they wouldn't feel the sanctions very hard. Because, you know, while we used to represent 40% of the world economy, today we represent about half that. So to have more strength, more clout, by combining our interests with those of Great Britain and France and Germany and Finland and Sweden and others, why then when we all combine and say, do these things, play by these rules, or here are the penalties, then the person that's misbehaving is more likely to change their behavior. So alliances are in our

interest. It puts America first because we are able to combine with others to have more clout. And whether that's military clout or economic clout, and by the way, Xi Jinping of China has to see what's happening and say, wow, look at that. That's not just America pushing back on Russia for their Ukraine invasion. It's all of the European Union and these major allies of America, which could together represent over half the economy of the world. And if we China want to keep selling products to the economy of the world, we better watch this carefully and not take action, which would cause them to do the same thing to us. So yeah, there is strength in numbers. And American strength has always been enhanced

by linking our arms with other like-minded countries. And I think that's one of the things, I mean, credit where credit is due. I think one of the things that I note in President Biden's administration, I do give him credit for having done a good job in combining ourself with our allies to make sure that the sanctions on Russia were united. And that's something which I think will be true as we go forward and deal with a China which is much stronger than Russia would ever hope to be. China's population is four times ours. Great point about we want China to be watching what is happening to Russia and be like, I'm not interested in that. No, thank you. And,

you know, we want to have economic strength. We have to have trade relationships with all these countries. And if us doing something outside the boundaries ruins all of our trade relationships, it's not worth it. Yeah. China has a lot of people that want to become part of their middle class. And they've had a lot of people come off the ranks of poverty and join the middle class. They want that to continue. They want more prosperity for their people. And more prosperity typically is enhanced by having trade with other nations, being able to sell goods and services to other people. And so they watch with care to see whether any actions

they take would impair their ability to sell goods and services to America, to Great Britain, to France, to Germany, to Italy, and Spain, and so forth. So they watch this. And while we now have the economic clout we do relative to them, we have more capacity to get them to start to play by the rules. And the truth is trade's a complicated topic to look at because trade is good, but only if everybody plays by the rules. And China has not been playing by the rules. It has driven American businesses out of business. Jobs have left here and gone there on the basis of unfair trading practices. And we have let China get away with that.

Thinking in the back of our minds that it's this poor country, don't worry about what they're doing. Well, the reality is it's not a poor country anymore. Their economy is almost as big as ours. Their military is as big or bigger. So time to stop thinking about them as being a backwater and recognizing them as a major economic competitor and insist that they play by the rules if they want to have any access to our markets. and to insist that they play by the rules if they want to have any access to our markets. I would love to hear from you, too, about do you think it is for America to maintain its hegemonic influence, its superpower status? Is it imperative that America remain a democracy? There's no question about that in my mind. A great deal of the vitality and strength

of our nation is associated with the freedoms which we enjoy. Sometimes we wish we saw other people exhibit a little less freedom. But our freedom has allowed enterprises to come up with new technologies, people to pursue avenues of inquiry that might have been shut down if they were in an authoritarian regime. And while we are far from perfect in terms of the allocation of brainpower and resources in our economy, our ability to do that is a lot better than places that are authoritarian. Authoritarian nations like Russia, for instance, tend to become extraordinarily corrupt. And corruption is a terribly inefficient way of getting things done. It makes it harder to

innovate and develop the businesses that will employ people in the future. So, yeah, there's an advantage to being free. I mean, look at the patents in the world. We've been developing patents and have led the world in new technologies for a long time. But I will note that China has a model which is increasingly competitive on the technology front. And they almost equal us in the number of patents now. So China does not appear to have the same level of corruption that we've seen in some prior authoritarian regimes throughout the world. And so they're going to be a more significant competitor. They're a bit of a smarter competitor by investing in education, by stealing technology. I mean, we don't like people who steal stuff from us, but we let them get away with it. And they're not stupid. They say, hey, if I can steal technology from America and from others,

I'm going to do it. And we let them get away with it. So they're a pretty smart competitor. We benefit from the freedoms which we have, which allow us, a smaller nation, to continue to lead the world. But we're going to have to make sure we double down to protect those freedoms if we want to enjoy that advantage. What can an American who cares deeply about democracy, what can the average American with little political power, just supporting their kids, trying to do the best they can, what can the average American do to protect democracy? Well, believe it or not, if you're a parent, it's to raise good kids and to teach them

principles that are enduring. If you have a job, it's to do well at your job. The ability of our country to provide goods and services to one another, to have a job is to do well at your job. The ability of our country to provide goods and services to one another, to have a strong military, to care for our poor, to care for our elderly, that all flows from whether we have people at work that are able to get a good job, pay taxes, that goes to the government that we can do all these good things. So, I mean, people are doing good things for our democracy by raising good families and by doing a good job at their respective places of employment. Then if you want to get

even more involved, being involved in your church or your civic organization and interacting with others, listening to what they have to say, exchanging points of view. Now, sometimes there are people, they're not interested in exchanging points of view. They just want to argue and they haven't given real thought to their point of view. And I guess you could just sort of smile and listen and then perhaps walk away. But there are others who want to exchange if they disagree. And so listening to them and having an exchange is a productive thing. And then I would say finally, again, it's supporting those candidates or those individuals who do get in the arena that you have trust in, that you believe in, and saying, I'm going to work with that person because I think they best represent what I believe. That's kind of how a democracy works.

The view is that if one person has all the power, in all likelihood, that person is going to become corrupted and have their head turned by the power they have. When you have a society where 300 million people have the power, the likelihood that we will all be corrupted is not very great. We will, in all likelihood, as a group, be able to choose the path that's in our mutual best interest. I think it was Winston Churchill who said, you know, you can trust Americans to get things right after they've exhausted all the alternatives. He's pointing out that we often make mistakes. We often are too late to the show. We get things wrong time and again. I mean, you look over the past couple of decades,

we've made some terrible mistakes, but by and large, we come back to getting things right, in part because while we make mistakes, as a nation, we have consistently acted for what we thought was right, right for us and right for others. And that has, I think, distinguished us from many other powers on the planet. I would love to hear from you. This is purely hypothetical. Let's say somebody is trying to decide who to vote for, and candidate A has a lot of ideas that they like. They're like, I like that tax plan. I like their ideas about paid family leave. But they tend to move away from some of those principles of democracy. They tend to move towards that authoritarianism,

but they like their other, like their legislative agenda. And they're the right party for them. And then you have candidate B, maybe not the right party, but really supports democracy and freedom. Which is the better candidate to vote for? Is it the candidate whose party you don't necessarily align with, but who democracy is of utmost importance?

Or is it the candidate that has the right legislative agenda, but is maybe more authoritarian? Well, I'm going to take your premise and adjust it just a little bit, because I do believe in both parties that there is a fundamental belief in freedom and in democracy. And I know that perhaps the wings of each party will accuse the other party of not believing in democracy. But I think we do recognize we're a democratic republic. And there are very few people on the national stage or perhaps on a statewide stage that are saying, let's get rid of democracy. True. Very true. But I would say there are candidates whose positions you agree with, but whose, if you will, personal principles, whose character you disagree with.

Yes. And that's a great dilemma. And that's one of the challenges that people like myself have, and I know others like you may have the same, which is I'll look at one party and say, I just disagree with most of their positions on the issues. which is I'll look at one party and say, I just disagree with most of their positions on the issues. On the other hand, I look at the other party and I say, I'm really upset with some of the matters of character that seem to be associated with a particular candidate. So how do I choose between a candidate whose positions I agree with, but whose character is awful. And on the other hand, someone whose character is great, but whose positions I disagree with. And that's just the judgment.

I wish I could give you a great answer to that. I think you have to make that assessment on your own and weigh those two. I can tell you, at least in my view, if I think about what has made America the powerhouse that we've become in terms of global esteem, leadership of the free nations, the most powerful economy in the world, it is more than just our policies. It is also the character of our people, our commitment to one another, our commitment to truth, our commitment to good. I look at Abraham Lincoln, for instance, and I say, it's the character of Lincoln that helped make us who we are. It's the character of these people. I don't know what the policies were necessarily of Teddy Roosevelt, but I know something about

his character. And I think those things are shaping for us. Ronald Reagan, do I agree with his policies or not? But his character, the optimism he had about America, his commitment to our principles, his willingness to fight for those principles against the Soviet Union, those things I think looking at some races right now. I won't mention which ones, but I'm looking at races in our country and primaries right now in my party. And there are some character issues and policy issues. And it's like, boy, how do I decide who to vote for? And in that case, you just have to make that personal judgment. But I would not write off character. And perhaps that comes from my, if you will, my Judeo-Christian background. But I do believe that people who have shown a willingness to abide

by principle and that have high personal principles are people that I'm going to tend to be inclined to vote for. Policies are much easier to adjust than character. Boy, you are right on. You're right on. I mean, there's no question. I found over the years some policy thoughts I had early on, and even more recently from time to time, I get equated with new facts, new information, or circumstances change. It's like, oh, okay, got to put in place a different policy here. But whether someone is true to their word, whether they treat other people with respect or not, whether they have empathy for those that are struggling, whether they believe in the cause of freedom. These things

tend to be grounding, and people either lash themselves to those grounding principles, or they adjust them as they think it may be popular. I wish I could tell you that everybody that I see has chosen to follow a principle, but I think that's not always the case. Sad but true. Absolutely. But I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is easier to adjust the policies and difficult to change gears just slightly and ask you a question that a lot of Americans ask me, and maybe you can shed a little insight, which is about the national debt. So many Americans are like, how do we owe the money to ourselves? Some of the money. How do we owe it to ourselves? Why is it so much?

What am I supposed to do about it? Like, as an average American, what am I supposed to do about it? Like as an average American, what am I supposed to do? So I'd love to hear your thoughts, because this is something Americans are wondering about. Well, first of all, it's helpful to divide the national debt into two parts. Yes. One is the part of the debt that's owed to ourselves. And I wouldn't put a lot of emphasis on that. It's relevant, but I'd sort of put that to the side. The other is the amount that we owe, if you will, to others. It's called the public debt. And that today is about the same size as our total economy. It's about $20 trillion is the amount that we owe to other people, other nations. China has a lot of that. Individuals have that. It's a lot of money. And

there are a couple of reasons to be concerned about it. One is we have to pay interest on it. So all that debt, the $20 trillion has an interest rate. And this last year, we spent about $400 billion in interest. That means writing checks to China and other nations around the world and the pension funds and so forth. So that's a problem. That means we've got to tax people in order to get money to pay interest. And the more debt we have, the higher interest we'll have to pay. And people, of course, been reading the newspapers and looking at mortgage rates, and they know that interest rates are going up in our country. Well, as interest rates go up, and this debt is going to have interest on it, the cost of interest is going to get higher and higher.

After I lost in 2012 to President Barack Obama, I got a call from Bill Clinton, who graciously called to commiserate with me and said, Mitt, the biggest worry I have is what happens when interest rates go back up again. We will be spending more on interest than we spend on national defense. And he's right. We spend about $720 billion a than we spend on national defense. And he's right. We spend about $720 billion a year right now on national defense. And if interest rates go up much higher, we'll be spending more on interest than our national defense. You can't lead the world if you're out there having to tax people just to pay the interest. So that's part one, the interest is getting to be too big. Number two, there comes a

time when the people who are loaning you the money say, I'm not willing to loan you any more money unless you pay me a lot more in interest, a lot more to take the higher risk that you're not going to pay me back. And that happened to Greece and Italy. It's happened in Brazil. It's happened to other countries where they just got too much debt. And the amount of debt they had as a percentage of their economy was about 100%. Their economy and their debt were about the same size. Well, that's about where we are right now. And if we keep on spending the way we have been spending, we will have debt twice as large as our economy within 10 years. That doesn't work. That could be backbreaking. That could cause a collapse of our economy, massive depression or

recession. I mean, no one wants to see that happen. So at some stage, we're going to have to stop spending massively more than we tax. Now, our Democrats say that's easy to raise lots of taxes and Republicans say that's easy to cut lots of spending. But we're not at a point where we've been able to work together collaboratively. Republicans and Democrats, neither side is willing to sit down and say, how can we solve this problem? Because more and more debt is putting a greater and greater interest burden on the American people. And at some point, we're going to hit a cliff where people will no longer loan us money. And so what can Americans do, Senator Romney?

Well, you know, what you can do. I mean, I know you're going to feel like, well, as a citizen, there's nothing I can do about that. By and large, you're right, except there's no harm in calling or writing your congressman or your senator and saying, do something about the debt. Having that become an issue in people's minds, I think will help. I've got a piece of legislation out there with about 12 other senators, about half Republican, half Democrat, that is calling for, if you will, a commission to come together and to look at each of our major spending obligations and saying, okay, how can we get this solvent and make sure we're not spending more money than we're taking in every year? It's called the Trust Act, and it's bipartisan,

and it's to save Social Security, save Medicare, save Medicaid, save the highway trust fund. It's to save these programs and make sure that we don't keep on borrowing massively more than we take in. Nobody wants old people dying on the streets. Nobody wants starving children. We have to care for our citizens, but part of caring for our citizens is making sure that our economy remains solvent and stable. Yeah, there's no question that a very strong, active economy where people are working hard, where they're getting paid more money, where you don't have terrible inflation, a really strong economy, there's nothing but good that can come from that. And the way, by the way, that we beat the Soviet Union back in the days

prior to 1989, when we were competing with them, their economy couldn't keep up with ours. Our freedom, our capitalist system, our free enterprise system just out-competed them. Their economy couldn't keep up and therefore their country couldn't keep up. Our economy doing well is the best way for us to be able to pay off our debts, to meet our obligations, to keep a military that's strongest in the world. So you don't have to be in government to be encouraging and protecting freedom. Just participating and creating a stronger economy, that's, if you will, the energy and the passion and the lifeblood behind everything that our government is able to do.

That's a great point, that you actually working hard at your job is helping America. Yeah, if I didn't think that, I might be inclined to think, oh, only the politicians or perhaps the teachers are helping America. It's like baloney. People who are coming up with ideas or doing a good job at work or working nine to five and doing their very best, those people are also contributing to the country because we depend upon the vitality of our entire economy for basically all the other good things that we want to have our government do that'll keep us safe. Great point. Such an honor. Thank you so much.

Okay, bye. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was

produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.