Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The Most Chaotic Election in American History Was Saved by an Irish Immigrant, and a Conversation with Congressman James Clyburn

Episode Date: November 24, 2025

Meet the Irish immigrant who used fireplace tongs to fight a member of Congress, was thrown in jail for insulting a president, and ultimately changed the course of American history. Plus, Sharon talks with powerful Democratic Congressman James Clyburn in a wide-ranging conversation that touches on the drama currently happening in the House, his life growing up as a Black child in the south, and why people of color need something other than equality. They discuss his new book, The First Eight, on the eight Black Congressmen who came before him and the gripping parallels between post-Civil War America and today. It’s an interview that’s equal parts history lesson, warning, and inspiration — and even touches on Clyburn’s personal relationship with one of Sharon’s favorite historical figures: Septima Clark.  If you’d like to submit a question, head to ThePreamble.com/podcast – we’d love to hear from you there. And be sure to read our weekly magazine at ThePreamble.com – it’s free! Join the 350,000 people who still believe understanding is an act of hope. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We'd love to talk, business. It's week three of Canadian tires early Black Friday sales. These prices won't go lower this year. Maybe too long. Freezing. Save up to 50% November 20th to 27th. Conditions apply, details online. Matthew Lyon didn't glide into Congress the way some men did,

carried by polish and pedigree. He arrived like a force, an Irish immigrant with a face carved by work and weather. eyebrows angled in permanent skepticism and the unmistakable air of a man who had clawed his way into rooms never meant for him. Nothing about lion was built for deference. At each 15, he bordered a ship bound for the American colonies, willing to subject himself to a long, unpleasant voyage in a ship's hold, tossed on tempestuous seas, and blanketed by the rankness of his fellow beleaguered passengers. Sickness was rampant. Food was scarce. And those who survived the voyage arrived thin and exhausted. More on that story in a moment, but first, welcome to the preamble podcast. If you're new each week, you'll hear some of the most interesting stories from our weekly magazine, also called The Preamble. This week, we're focused on political parties and have some really interesting stories for you that you can find on the preamble.com. In today's episode, I'm speaking with prominent Democratic congressman James Clyburn.

He's held several leadership positions in the party, including House Majority Whip and Assistant Democratic Leader. When he won election in 1992, he was the first black congressman to be elected in South Carolina in nearly 100 years. He's a new bookout, The First Eight, about the eight black congressmen from his home state that came before him, including a man who had been born enslaved and a black man whose own family, enslaved people. As it turns out, James Clyburn knew somebody that I am very fond of. If you've read my book, you'll recognize this name, Septima Clark. I really think you're going to enjoy this conversation. I'm Sherrod McMahon, and this is the Preamble podcast. And now back to our story. Lion became an indentured servant in a print shop run by Ebenezer Watson. Print shops were

hot and loud, the smell and the smudges of ink embedded in every surface, but they were also places where ideas circulated as quickly as rumors. For a boy who had left Ireland during a period of steep economic pressure with few prospects, working for Watson offered Lyon something people of his class rarely had, proximity to power. Matthew Lyon learned politics and propaganda at the same wooden cases where he learned to set type. When the revolution came, he stepped toward it, serving with the Green Mountain Boys under Colonel Seth Warner. Lion hauled supplies, the New England ice, biting his fingers and cheeks, and worked among men like him. All gricked, no laudable family tree. When the war ended, Lion made his way north to Vermont, surrounded by

more people like him whose lives were hewn by the labor of their own backs. He opened a sawmill and then a print shop, garnering enough claim to be elected to represent Vermont in the House of Representatives. Matthew Lyon knew that he was never going to be invited to a seat at the table with the genteel tidewater planters. He was no Jefferson, no Madison. If he wanted space, he would have to take it. In January 1798, Representative Samuel Dana of Connecticut delivered a speech defending the Adams' administrations pushed to expand the army. The 106 men of the House of Representatives

were seated in a semicircle around Dana and his multiple chins, and Lyon did not approve of Dana's federalist ways. Perhaps in an attempt to mock Dana into silence, Lyon began to laugh. Loud enough to halt Dana mid-sentence and rudely enough to catch the attention of another Connecticut man,

Roger Griswold Griswold. Griswold rose from his seat, fury rising in his vein, and delivered an insult he knew would sting a self-assured man like lie. Mr. Lyon, Griswold charged, had disgraced himself more than once, including being dismissed with ignominy for cowardly behavior during the Revolutionary War.

To a Congress full of war veterans, the insult was weighty. To call a man a war coward was not simply a jab. It was an affront to his honor. Lion wasted no time closing the distance between himself and Griswold. His eyebrows lowered like a cat waiting to pounce. Lion spat tobacco juice directly at Griswold. The brown stain blooming like old blood.

The chamber erupted. Federalists jumped to their feet and demanded the experiment. of a man such as this one. Democratic Republicans shouted back, howling that Griswold had no business-provoking lion with such unproven slurs. The next morning, the newspapers had their headline, The Spitting Lion. Temperes did not cool when the chambers emptied that night. For the next two weeks, the House of Representatives returned again and again to the same

question, should Matthew Lion be expelled? The Federalists didn't have the necessary. necessary two-thirds vote, and every failed attempt to whip the votes only sharpened the bitterness between the factions. On February 14th, 1798, a final vote was taken. The Federalists had failed to put together a coalition that would banish the big cat from their midst. Griswold was humiliated. The next morning, having decided to take matters into his own hands, Griswold strode across the house floor carrying a cane and brought the weapon down with a thud on lion's head and shoulders. Hurt and infuriated, Lion grabbed a set of large fireplace tongs kept beside the

chamber hearth and swung back. The men grappled and struck at first egged on by onlookers and finally torn apart by colleagues. Newspaper readers the next day woke to lurid descriptions of congressmen trading blows with government-issued tools. Despite several attempts, neither Griswold nor Lion was punished. The fight over the fate of the men hardened the plaster between the Federalists and the Democratic Republicans, solidifying the partisan lines that would shape the fate of the Young Republic. In the months that followed, Congress passed the Sedition Act,

and President John Adams would begin prosecuting, his critics. This Addition Act made it a federal crime to publish any false scandalous and malicious writing aimed at bringing the president or Congress into contempt or disrepute. Federalists like Adams insisted it protected the nation in a moment of danger while conflict with Europe knocked, but Democratic Republicans sought as a naked attempt to hold a sharpened knife to their throats. Lyon could not or would not adjust his behavior, publishing an essential. in his newspaper accusing President Adams of having, quote, an unbounded thirst for ridiculous pomp, foolish adulation, and selfish avarice. Federal Marshals arrested Lyon, and he was put on trial

before a Supreme Court justice who rode to Vermont to hear pending cases. Lion maintained that the Sedition Act violated the First Amendment, but Justice William Patterson told the jurors that Lion's intent was what mattered. If his goal was to bring the president into contempt, it was a crime. For a few brief moments, Lion hoped the Constitution would prevail. But the jury deliberated quickly returning a conviction for the spitting lion. His punishment, four months in jail, and a $1,000 fine-plus court costs, an amount that would cripple nearly any American of his close. And yet it was inside that cold, cramped Vermont jail cell that Lyon became more powerful than the federalists ever expected. Lion channeled his anger onto scraps

of paper smuggling essays out through his friends. His supporters distributed his writings across Vermont and voters began to pick up what Lyon was putting down if the Adams administration could jail him for criticizing the president. He could jail anyone. When the next round of congressional ballots were counted, Lyon, locked behind a stone wall, had been re-elected to his seat in the House of Representatives by a comfortable margin.

The Congress Lion returned to in early 1799 was no longer divided between two parties that disagreed on the role of federal versus state governments. Now each party distrusted, resented, and feared with the other might do with its power. Under the original constitution, electors did not cast separate votes for president and vice president. Each elector cast two votes for president,

and the candidate with the most votes became president while the runner-up became vice president. It was a design drafted in a world without political parties. One were the framers imagined intellectual gentlemen competing for office, but not organizing themselves into rival camps. By 1800, that world no longer existed. The Democratic Republicans planned for each of their electors to vote for Thomas Jefferson and Aaron Burr, with one elector, withholding his second vote from Burr so that Jefferson would finish with one more vote and become the nation's third president.

But the plan failed. Whether through miscommunication or miscalculation, every Democratic Republican elector cast one vote for Jefferson and one for Jefferson and one. Berber leaving them tied. On the federalist side, President John Adams was running for re-election with Charles Pinckney, but they received fewer votes out of the gate than either Burr or Jefferson. Adams would not have a second term. The Constitution was clear. If there was a tie in the Electoral College, the decision of who would become president was kicked to the House of Representatives where each state's delegation would cast a single vote. Ten weeks elapsed before Congress was scheduled to meet again. For 10 weeks, the infant nation knew not which course the house would

chart. Jefferson or Burr, if you had to choose. Men discussed the question at taverns and in the pews of churches. For many, there was only one option. You could be on the side of the Lord, or you could vote for Thomas Jefferson. The president of Yale, Timothy Dwight, wrote that if Jefferson were to be elected, the Bible would, quote, be cast into a bonfire and children either wheedled or terrified would be united in chanting mockeries against God and our wives and daughters would become the victims of legal prostitution. Another author summed up the choice plainly, God and a religious president, or impiously declare for Jefferson and no God? And yes, there were a lot of all caps in that sentence.

Seventy days after the electors cast their ballots, which resulted in a tie between Jefferson and Burr, the House of Representatives assembled in the new, unfinished capital in Washington. Only a portion of the drafty building still surrounded by scaffolding and stone was usable. On the morning of February 11th, 1801, the clerk opened the certificates of the Electoral College and read aloud the numbers that had hung over the nation for 10 anxious weeks. Thomas Jefferson, 73 votes. Aaron Burr, 73 votes. It was now up to the House of Representatives to decide.

The cold air from the unfinished walls shivered down the spines of the men. who represented the interests of the 16 states. Nine states would be needed to choose a winner. The roll call of the states began. New Hampshire. Bur. Massachusetts. Burr.

Pennsylvania. Jefferson. New Jersey. Jefferson. When the clerk called for Maryland and Vermont, each state voted, divided. The representatives of these states could not arrive at an agreement on whom to cast their ballot for.

Jefferson had won eight states. Burr had taken six, and with two states undecided, there was no winner. The House has proceeded to a second ballot, the clerk announced, and then a third, and then a fourth, each time the numbers were the same. As the hours waned, the chamber tightened. Matthew Lyon and the other representative from Vermont, Louis Morris, knew that as long as they failed to come to an agreement, their state would be silent in the election. The future hinged on a handful of men in a half-finished room. The balloting stretched on for seven long days. On the morning of February 17th, the House gathered again the faces of the representatives etched

by exhaustion. The clerk began the 36th ballot, nothing changed until the clerk reached Vermont. When the voice of Matthew Lyons said not divided, but Jefferson. Vermont became the ninth state that Jefferson needed to win the election. Maryland, too, finally went for Jefferson, putting him more decisively over the threshold. Burr would become Jefferson's vice president. While holding that office, he would kill Alexander Hamilton in a duel. When his time in Washington expired, he would hatch a treasonous plot against the country.

But that is scarcely a story we have timed for now. If anything celebratory passed between the men in that room where it happened, history did not bother to record it. The annals of Congress captured nothing but the tally, no outbursts, no applause. no acknowledgement of the moments that had carried the country there. But the truth sat quietly in the record all the same. When the constitutional machinery jammed, and the young republic hovered between two consequential futures, the state that helped break the stalemate spoke through Matthew Lyon,

the indentured servant who became a printer, the immigrant soldier, the congressman who spat in a colleague's face, swung fireplace tongs in self-defense, and wrote seditious essays from a stone jail cell, the Democratic Republican who favored a fate not tied to the perceived monarchical tendencies of the federalists and his fellow New Englander Adams. He was not the kind of guardian, the framers imagined. But at the exact moment the Republic needed one, He was the man who stood in the right place.

On the day it mattered most, Matthew Lyon, unrefined, uninvited, unafraid, helped save the American experiment. Next up, my interview with Congressman James Clyburn on his new book, The First Eight, about the eight black members of Congress who came before him in South Carolina. We talk about that, what's happening in the House right now, and a special connection we share. This Giving Tuesday, Cam H is counting on your support. Together, we can forge a better path for mental health by creating a future where Canadians can get the help they need when they need it, no matter who or where they are. From November 25th to December 2nd, your donation will be doubled.

That means every dollar goes twice as far to help build a future where no one's seeking help is left behind. Donate today at camph.ca.ca. I'm Dr. Mary Claire Haver, a board certified OBGYN and menopause specialist. My new podcast, Unpaused, is the place for bold, unfiltered conversations about what it really takes for women to thrive in the second half of life. Every week, I sit down with medical experts, cultural icons, and powerhouse women to talk about what really matters, your health, your power, and your future. We're covering hormones, identity, finances, relationships, and so much

more. New episodes drop every Tuesday. Listen to and follow Unpaused with me, Dr. Mary Claire Haver, available now wherever you get your podcasts. Snap up Ancestry DNA's lowest price ever in our incredible cyber sale. With 50% off ancestry DNA kits, it's the perfect time to help a loved one unwrap the past. And with their latest update, they'll discover their family origins like never before, with even more precise regions and new and exclusive features. Their best gift, our lowest price, 50% off Ancestry DNA, only until December 2nd. Visit Ancestry.ca for more details. Terms apply. I'm back now with Congressman James Clyburn. He has a brand new book, The First Eight,

about the eight black congressman who came before him in South Carolina. He's also a prominent Democrat in the House, having served for more than 30 years. Congressman Clyburn, thank you so much for joining me today. Well, thank you very much for having me. It's truly my pleasure. I'm excited to be with you. There is a lot happening in the House of Representatives right now. A lot happening in Congress.

How is it looking from your vantage point? Well, I think that we are beginning to get things moving a little bit. As you know, we've been stale-made it for a while. The Epstein files seem to be behind us. Hopefully, we can get back to the business that had, And that is funding this government, making sure that people get some stability and hopefully better security in their lives. And maybe we'll get back to that business now that we've got these files behind us. I hear that. I know. It's been a challenging couple of years in Congress.

And your book that I read with great interest is about Congress. Congress of a different time and a congressional lineage of which you are a part. And it's no surprise to anybody that you view yourself as carrying on an important tradition in the United States Congress. But I want to know what is it about this topic that made you feel like I need to write this book. I need to write it now. And I need other people to know about the people who came before me. Well, when I started the book, I was really addressing sort of a thing of interest of mine. My dad had made me learn a lot about these people when I was a kid. And so I knew a lot about them. And when I got elected Majority Whip, I requested that

the Library of Congress allow me eight photos of these people, and I put them on the wall of my conference room. And one day, a group was in there, and one of them looked up at the pictures and ask, who are those people? And I started to explain who they were. And one of them said, well, I thought you were the first American from South Carolina. And I kind of playfully said, no, before I was first, there were eight. But later that day, I said to myself, I think my next book is going to be about these eight people. So I sort of leisurely, they started working on the book with no real sense of urgency until the 2020 elections happened and the reactions to those elections. And I said to people at the time, I know what's going on here. I knew it from

the history I studied and used to teach. I've heard this song before and I know how the tune is played. Absolutely. And so I then started over because I was just writing the book to be informative. I decided it's time to be a little more instructive. And so we kind of rewrote the book and started trying to demonstrate what it happened back after the Civil War and what I saw happening in the aftermath of this election. And then, of course, January 6th, 2021, that just did it for me. and so that's why I wrote the book at this particular time and the way that I wrote it so that people could see that this whole notion that has never been like this before

is not quite true. It was like this before. We just run around back in 1876 when it happened. And even in the last 10 months, there's really been a concerted effort on the part of the federal government to minimize the contributions of African Americans, to minimize the contributions of all types of people of color, of women, to make anything that has been done by somebody apparently other than a white man

seem like DEI, you know, air quotes, DEI, and to cast aspersions on it as though that was not earned, as though that is somehow less than. And I wonder after having researched and spent so many years writing this book, And again, having learned about many of these figures from your boyhood, what does that feel like to you in this moment to see all of these sort of rollbacks on the teaching of black history, on the minimizing of black achievement, on making anything that is outside of a very narrow set of accomplishments seem like it's suspicious. What does that feel like to you? Fundamentally, it bothers me a great deal. because I know from my own experiences.

I called my memoir blessed experiences. And I say it in the introduction to their book, I wrote, all of my experiences have not been pleasant, but I have considered all of them to be blessings. And when you are blessed by unpleasant experiences, you use that blessing to do what you can, hopefully to prevent your children, your grandchildren, and all other similarly situated from making those mistakes,

or to do everything they possibly can to stave off these mistakes when you see them happening. And that's what this is all about. We don't have to go all the way back to 1876. We can go back to the end of World War II. When World War II ended, a lot of things happened in the run-up to that war as well as the aftermath of it. When we had the big stock market crashed back in 1929,

and the government made some significant investments to make sure that people could come back from that catastrophe. Well, one of the things they did was to pass the GI Bill, and they also created Social Security. And these two things are very interesting. Because when Social Security, which a lot of people call the greatest anti-poverty program ever put together, when it came online, Social Security did not cover domestic workers and farm workers. And 65% of African Americans in this country were employed in those two areas of the economy at that particular structure, which meant that Social Security didn't cover 65% of African Americans. And when the GI Bill came online after the war, a lot of African Americans were not allowed to participate in the educational support as well as housing development that came out of that.

And so we look at these things and you say we're repeating the same stuff. Now here we go all of a sudden we'll talk about the election, participation in the government. And you see, it looked like somebody took a playbook out of the 1876, I guess was Martin Willisbury, Gary, who wrote that edict. There are a lot of people called the Edgefield Plan that I think Project 2025 memory. So I thought it's my responsibility to write a cautionary tale for people to look at and hopefully will be helpful in them understanding what's going on around us today. So you are definitely seeing strong echoes from the late 19th century Jim Crow era post-Civil War.

You're seeing strong echoes between that time period and some of the things that are happening in the United States today. Absolutely. It is clear to me, and I think it would be to anyone else who really took a hard look at the things we talk about in this book. And, you know, if you were to just read about the life of one of the eight, people in this book was Robert Smalls, who I referred to in the book as the most consequential, I think is what I call them, South Carolinians who ever lived. It's clear. If you look at the consequences that flowed from his life, escaping from slavery, ticking that ship, the planter, which is the most valuable ship that the Confederates owned at the time, delivering that ship to

the Union Army, becoming the captain of that ship, getting his freedom and the fact that that he turned his monetary gains into great wealth, all of this without any kind of schooling. He received no form of education, becoming a United States congressman for 10 years. And so you look at these consequences, he says, why is it that when I talk about these things today, nobody ever heard of this guy? That wasn't an accident. When I was a student, we didn't have these things in the books that came from the school, my father, I brought these books to my attention and these lives to my attention. And so

it's amazing when I have these book events, as I had last night over at George Washington University, people telling me they've never heard these things before. And I think that this book will help them address the issues that we're faced today. I love the character of Robert Smalls. I think you're absolutely right. He is such an incredibly consequential American. whose name has never been in the bold face in the textbooks. If anything, characters like Smalls, maybe they get a little sidebar, but often not even that. And it's time for a lot of these people that are in your book to stop being the sidebars of history. This is the history that is our shared heritage.

This is American history. This is not history that belongs only in the month of February. These are characters from whom we can all learn. And I appreciate that you are, you know, playing a role in making sure that the people who are alive today can keep the memory of some of these individuals alive. And I think many people are probably unaware about the time period following the Civil War, immediately following the Civil War, and the incredible amount of black wealth that was built in the United States about the number of elections that were won, the number of schools that were open, the number of churches. that were built, the incredible flourishing of people who were previously enslaved, the trajectory of their community was truly remarkable. And so you talk in this book about these eight people who were elected sort of during that time period, who represent South Carolina in Congress.

The last of those eight congressmen left office, and correct me if I'm wrong, in 1897. Do I remember that correctly? Yes, you're right. And then it took a very long time for you to become number nine, a very long time, far too long. 95 years. 95 years for another black person to be elected to represent South Carolina. Right. Why did it take 95 years?

What was happening during those 95 years? Thank you so much for getting there, because that to me is the second. reason I changed direction with this book. Because if you look at what happened after that war, the war was over, black folks were participating in politics, in government, as you said, building great wealth. Of these eight, only three of them had been enslaved. Number three in the group, Robert Brown Elliott, came from Massachusetts and came here with highly educated, along as Renziah. It was number five, very educated. Richard Kane, number four, educated a minister who came to Charleston from Bridge Street, AME Church up in New York. And so a lot of things

that we're doing today that we think is something new, these guys were doing it. However, while they're doing all of this, those people I call in this book Redeemers who wanted to redeemers the South to these free civil war of ways, who have called the one governor in South Carolina. He wanted to return the former enslaved back to as close to slavery as a capacitor of B without violating the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. He said that. However, they were so effective at what they did when John Lewis and others crossed that Edmund Presidents Bridge back in 1965, that led to the voting rights

in Chicago, 1965, only 3% of African Americans in the entire state of Alabama were registered to vote. And they did other things as well. And so these, what I call in the book, Creative Devices. Like saying, if you want to register the vote, tell me how many bubbles are in this bar soap. How many jelly beans are in this jar? This is the kind of ludicrous, insulting things that were done in order to deny the vote to people of color. And the Supreme Court allowed it all to happen with its decisions.

Legislatures all over the South passed laws to enforce this kind of separate but equal that stood until 1954 of the Brown v. the Board of Education and Session. So that 95-year period saw some of the most violent activities to world people of color, some of the most effective denial of equal protection of the law, of all the things that make for a fundamentally fair society who are not only denied, which would be a passive act, but they were created and enforced by the, the powers would be during this time. And that's what this book was all about. And to say to people, what happened then could happen again if we are not vigilant. As Thomas Jefferson said to

we have written, that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. And so we intend for this Constitution to apply to everybody in an equitable way. And I've emphasized the word equitable. A very seldom used the word equal, because I don't think anybody is asking to be treated equally. Our needs are not the same. So equal treatment is not what's being pursued here. Equity is what needs to be employed. Yeah, I mean, just by way of illustration, I'm a long-time teacher, and we would not say that it was fair that all children would be treated equally in a classroom. It might sound good on paper, but some children, have learning disabilities and need additional accommodations.

Some children have medical issues that prevent them from participating in a second grade classroom in the same way. We would not say everyone gets the same thing, and best of luck to you, we would say, what do we need to do to make sure that you receive a free and appropriate public education? And that same principle should be applied to participation in democracy at large. What is it that you need to be able to participate fully in our American experiment when it comes to participating in democracy? Absolutely. And equity is a legal theory that's applied all the time throughout our process. And we ought not allow ourselves to get hung up on the peg of equality. I have three daughters and often use the three of them as an example of why equality is not what I see.

Because I don't treat the three of them the same way. their needs are totally different. When you go from 11 years to my oldest down to my youngest, you're almost in two different generations. That's right. We'll be back in just a bit with more of my conversation with Congressman Jim Clyburn. When you're flying Emirates business class,

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Shop now at IKEA.ca.ca. slash Black Friday. IKEA. Bring home to life. Welcome back. I'm here with Congressman James Clyburn. This is not the subject of your book, but I am very fond of a very famous South Carolinian Septima Clark. Love Septima Clark. Don't you love her? I just want to, like, if I could have a dinner party, she would be invited. Again, I have so much affinity for her as a teacher. I love that she, you know, is from your home state. And I would imagine she knew, at least of many.

of the people that you write about in this book? Well, yeah, well, Symptima, I don't know if you know this or not, but Martin Luther King Jr.'s last visit to South Carolina was the July before he was assassinated. He always referred to September O'Clock as the mother of the movement, and immediately decided it was Rosa Parks. But September O'Clock taught Rosa Parks at the Highland School down in Tennessee.

Yes, she did. And so when King came to Charleston that day to do a speech in the afternoon, Septima invited me to lunch with her and King on that day. And so the last time I saw Mom with the King, Jr., was the day that we sat across the table from each other as September Ponset Clark's house. Oh, my goodness. He was a close friend, and my late wife loved her. We all loved her, but Emily had a very personal relationship with September Club.

I love that. Yeah, I love her. After I wrote my book, she's featured in a big section of my book, The Small and the Mighty. She really is such an unsung hero in American history. She's an unsung champion for the rights of children. I love that she goes back and gets elected to the Charleston School Board after they fired her. That's like the best just desserts right there, like now I'm your boss. But, you know, one of the things that I keep thinking about that I feel like Congress could take a lesson from,

which is, she gets to be an old woman, it's the 70s, and somebody comes to her and says, what have you learned in your long career? I mean, think of what she had seen. She was born in 1898. She's lived through both World Wars. She's lived through the entire civil rights movement. She's lived through, you know, like the early 20th century was so consequential. And they ask her, what have you learned?

And she said, I have learned that I can work with my enemies because they might have a change of heart at any moment. And she talks about how she's seen it happen over and over. I'm not saying there's no justification for like a righteous anger about injustice. I think what's important to remember is that Septima didn't say I let them move into my house. I let them abuse me. I went ahead and let them pass racist laws. I gave them all my money. Like I think people hear the word like I can work with my enemies and they think that they're just going to allow themselves to be manipulated into oblivion. But I would love to hear from you. You are uniquely positioned to answer this question. At 85 years old, somebody who knew Septima, how does that advice land for you

in the year 2025? I don't know that Septim ever said that to me directly, but I learned that from her. We had something called the Progressive Globe, and it was on property earned by a man them Esau Jenkins. September was running that school for Esau Jenkins. The editor of the Thompson Posting Coria was a guy named Tom Waring. And Tom Waring was a very, very conservative, reactionary person. He wrote some of the most scathing, anti-black editorials that you can imagine. I shall never forget when I went over for a meeting, I can't. I can't remember not exactly what it was about in Esau Jenkins' church that Esau Jenkins and September clock was Tom Wearing, sitting in the pulpit.

And I have no idea when he did it, but he had a soul to Paul transformation. And I will always believe that his interactions, when he got to know Esau Jenkins and September McLeod, I think is when he changed his notion about how the world should operate. And I will always give Senator McLeod credit for that. And the talk he gave in that church that day, convinced me that you should never give up on anybody. I'm being put to the test today. Oh, I believe it.

It's not easy. Let's not pretend Septima was out here just walking on gold-paved streets. Like, what a testament to her character that she was willing to even meet with somebody like that. Oh, yeah. What a testament to her character that she believed that anyone could have a change of heart. Right. Absolutely. Maybe we should get some billboards around the beltway and put up with Septima Clark quote or two.

Because I feel like some of these members of the house could use a little dose of septima. I feel like it could only benefit us. Quite true. All right. Well, we're almost out of time, but I want to ask you, what do you hope the reader of your book takes away? When they close the last page and they, you know, are reflecting back on what they learned, what do you hope that somebody takes with them and sort of tucks into their pocket? I would hope that when you read this book, you will see that no matter how dark it may seem,

My dad used to say, the darkest point of the night is that moment just before dawn. We cannot allow ourselves to become so despair that we lose sight on preparing for the dawn. And it's right there in the scripture for them, that parable about keeping your lamps trimmed and burning so as to be ready when the bridegroom comes. So we cannot sit back and not do the preparation that is necessary. So this book, I'm hopeful that people read this and says, I'm going to learn a lesson from this, and I'm going to employ those lessons in order to be ready for the next election, Charles, will be ready for the next opportunity to present itself, whatever that opportunity might be. I love that.

And I love the reference to the Bible verse. It's in the book of Matthew where it says, yes, keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour. And you can apply that to so many things. It's so easy to think about like this dark night of the soul that America feels like it is going through in this moment. People feel desperate. They feel despair. They feel as though nothing will change. How am I supposed to fix, fill in the blank, terrible thing?

But I think it's such an important reminder that you're giving everybody. that we cannot let despair keep us from preparing because we do not know the day or the hour that our preparation is going to be called upon. Absolutely. I appreciate your time today. I really enjoyed your book. I love chatting with you. I'm so glad to get to hear more about Septima Clark.

Thank you very much. Congressman Clyburn, it's been a pleasure. It's great. Thank you. The First Aid is out now, and it is really an interesting read. You can find it at bookshop.org, your local bookshop, or wherever you buy your books. If you'd like to submit a question for me to answer on a future episode, head to thepramble.com slash podcast.

We'd love to hear from you there. And be sure to read our weekly magazine at the preamble.com. It's free. And here is your personal invitation to join 350,000 people who still believe understanding is an act of hope. This week we're looking at political parties and have some really incredible articles for you, like, how did the Democratic and Republican parties come to be what they are today? Are we really as divided as we think? And why are black voters overwhelmingly Democrats?

It wasn't always that way. I'm your host and executive producer Sharon McMahon. If you enjoyed this show, please like, share, and subscribe. These things help podcasters out so much. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. I'll see you again soon. Thank you.