Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The New Happy with Stephanie Harrison

Episode Date: June 24, 2024

Sharon is joined today by author Stephanie Harrison to discuss her international best selling book, New Happy. In this book, Stephanie explores  why we often get happiness wrong and how we can get it right. She reminds us not to get trapped into what she calls the Old Happy, which is what society tells you you need in order to be happy. From the story of Scrooge and his lack of empathy to how Shaquille O’Neal lives his life, Stephanie compares what happiness means to different people.  Special thanks to our guest, Stephanie Harrison, for joining us today.  Host: Sharon McMahon Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Production Assistant: Andrea Champoux Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Here's where it gets interesting is now available ad-free. Head to SharonMcMahon.com slash ad-free to subscribe today. Hello, friends. Welcome. Delighted to have you with me today. Have you ever asked yourself, aren't I supposed to be happy? And you've like, maybe you've looked around and been like, I have everything a person could need. Aren't I supposed to be happy? And then you

realize like, maybe I'm just not. Today's guest is going to be such a help. She has written a book called The New Happy. And I think you're going to absolutely love hearing from Stephanie Harrison. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I'm really grateful to be joined by Stephanie Harrison today. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful to be with you. Oh, it's my pleasure. I am so excited for your book, New Happy, Why We Got Happiness So Wrong and How You Can Get It Right. Man, there is really sort of like an epidemic of loneliness. I think the pandemic has made it so that people are truly having to grapple with relationships

that maybe are not on the firm footing that they thought they were on. There has just been so much going on both collectively as a human society, but also individually. We're all just now starting to like peek our heads out of, I don't know what the right way to describe it is, but like our little bear hybrid. Like, is it spring yet? I don't know. Are we safe? Yeah. Like, can I come out of here? You know what I mean? I think this is a time of great change for humanity in a variety of ways. And I'm wondering if you can start us off by talking about in what ways are we getting happiness wrong?

I think that we have an opportunity as you're talking about, as we emerge from our bear caves, to think about as we walk out into the world again, is this where we want to live or do we maybe want to find a new home or build a new home? And I suppose that that's really what my work is about, is inviting people to reimagine a better way to be happy. Because looking around, as you said, this isn't working for us. What we're doing is not working. And the ways in which we have misunderstood happiness are leading to that loneliness epidemic, to our mental health challenges, to the fracturing of our communities and the abandonment of civic and moral values in many ways. And the really interesting thing that I discovered in my research

is that the way that we conceptualize happiness has all of these downstream impacts. And so my proposal, what I call old happy, is this idea that happiness comes from perfecting yourself, from achieving more and more, and from doing everything independently, separate from other people. And that's really how we've not only structured our society, but also how many of us direct our individual lives. That's so interesting. The philosophy behind happiness is something that has been explored

for thousands of years. All of the old Greek philosophers, as soon as we started recording language, they were exploring this topic. Even the philosophers of the Enlightenment, philosophers that greatly influenced American society, Enlightenment-era philosophy did, certainly were rooted in this idea of self-improvement. If you look at the writings of Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and other early American thinkers, they were kind of borderline obsessed with this idea of self-improvement and the way to be happy would be X. And I will become happy when I have perfected myself. So in your viewpoint of this topic, is that the old happy? Is this striving

towards self-improvement that from, you know, philosophers of old, is that old happy? Am I getting it right? Somewhat, I think. But when I think about, you know, Franklin and Jefferson and the way that they understood happiness and how it traced back to those philosophers that you're talking about, they were pursuing that personal growth through a frame of my development as a virtuous person will then contribute to the good of the community and the society and the country that I live in. And we have divorced that. We have abandoned self-improvement connection to the greater good. So cold plunging, you're not doing that because it makes you a better citizen.

Whereas Franklin was seeking out to be more patient so that he could be a better leader, presumably, and thus contribute. And so we've had that connection severed between the actions that I take as a person and how that contributes to the broader world around me. And that's what I think we need to return to. That's a great point that even the old philosophers, even the early Americans, even the Greeks, they viewed self-improvement as necessary because it was necessary for the betterment of society. We'll have a better society if we're better people. Yes. And why have we moved away from that?

I think that it's been a combination of some of these values taken to major extremes that we see through forces like individualism and capitalism and domination that teach us all of these lessons about happiness and how we need to be. And this divorce of the relationship between oneself and your community, it continually feels like we're separating ourselves more and more, not only from one another, but from the broader world that we live in. And so happiness has become like my happiness. It doesn't matter if what I do makes you unhappy. All that matters is that it makes me happy. We've sort of lost sight of the bonds we have with one another. And so the way to ameliorate that and to address it is, in my opinion, return to the idea and the recognition that we are all inextricably connected and that the best way to pursue happiness is actually through helping other people. Because not only

does that make you a more virtuous person, but it's also what helps to contribute to the betterment of our society. That's such a good point. And I love how in your book, you revisit the character of Ebenezer Scrooge from A Christmas Carol, the Dickens story. And I think it's such a great example, actually. And I love how you draw this conclusion that what Scrooge does to become truly happy is he does not go out and build himself a weirdly shaped space rocket to fly to space. He doesn't build more projects that have his name emblazoned on the side. He doesn't put up the Scrooge work home for orphans. He doesn't become a man who creates new projects of self-aggrandizement. You say, with one choice, he changed his whole life. And he went from being the most miserable man around to becoming, as Dickens says, as good a friend, as good a master, and as good a man as the good old city knew or any other good old city, town, or borough in the good old world. And he becomes happy because of how he changes his interactions with the rest of the world.

Yeah. God, it gives me goosebumps to hear you read Dickens. It's so good. It's so interesting, right? Because when I was seeking out a story that embodied this shift from old happy to new happy, I spent so long looking for a real life example of somebody who had done that. And it was really hard, which was one, discouraging, and two, made me think, well, perhaps there's something in a story. And then I realized, of course, Scrooge is the perfect example of these old happy values. And of course, he takes them to the extreme. But no one wants to identify with before Scrooge, right?

We don't want to be him. No, he's miserable and everyone hates him. right? We don't want to be him. No, he's miserable and everyone hates him. We don't want that life. There's a reason why we're so uplifted by it is seeing his transformation. And all that he does is realize that it's about other people and he tries to be there to support them. And that's all we need to do as well, to show up and be there to support others. we need to do as well to show up and be there to support others. I love that. You also talk about how Shaquille O'Neal says that he, you know, of course we all know that Shaq is like one of the best basketball players.

I almost said baseball. Cause I'm good at sports. Sporting is my specialty. He's one of the best, even somebody like me who knows absolutely nothing about sports. I could pick him out of a lineup. Yes, me too. He's a good basketball player, right? Yeah. He's got all the awards and the MVPs and the cash, right? And he even says, his list of accomplishments is so long, but he said recently in an interview, I live in a 30,000 square foot house by myself. You don't think I know I messed up? How many people, especially young people, would do anything to trade places with Shaquille O'Neal,

right? It's the fame. It's the acclaim. It's the prowess. Everyone recognizes you. Everyone knows you have everything you could ever want, except you live in a 30,000 square foot house alone. Yeah. And so is it really worth it? Is all of that pain and stress and suffering, is it worth it to push yourself so hard and to separate yourself from others? And at the end of the day, you end up unhappy because that's what you really want. You really want happiness. You just think we've been told that X, Y, and Z will lead to happiness, but they don't. And that's the message I think that I'm hoping to share with people. The things that we think will make us happy actually end up making us miserable. Yeah. You say, if you're wondering whether old happiness has infiltrated your life, see if any of these statements resonate with you. Like, I never feel like I'm good enough. I got what I thought I wanted, but I still feel miserable. I never let myself take breaks or rest. It feels like I'm pretending to be someone I'm not. I feel so lonely all the time. Am I the only one who is secretly miserable but pretending

not to be? I think that, man, I bet a lot of people relate to that statement. Again, I think it's so important that if you're listening to Sharon read those things and you feel that way, it's not your fault. It's just not your fault at all. It's the fact that you've been conditioned into these ideas and then they go so deep within us, right? We don't even recognize that there are beliefs or that they could be challenged in a way. And so part of what we need to do is just bring our attention to our lives and think, well, is this actually working for me? Am I doing things that bring me joy on a regular basis? Because if not, then it's worth reconsidering and redefining your values for yourself in a way that actually serves you. You mentioned a quote from Martin Luther King that I absolutely loved and

I'll read it and then I'd love to hear you talk more about it. He said, those who are not looking for happiness are the most likely to find it because those who are searching forget that the surest way to be happy is to seek happiness for others. This gives me so much to think about because we really have been conditioned to believe that like, listen, you can't worry about other people because you can't control other people. You need to have boundaries. Boundaries are the way to be happy. And in some cases, boundaries are very necessary and needed. No shade to boundaries. But do we take boundaries

too far sometimes where we're like, if it doesn't make me happy, I'm not doing that thing. What is your view of that? Are we taking boundaries to an extreme? that thing. What is your view of that? Are we taking boundaries to an extreme? I think that we are approaching boundaries from our existing worldview, which is a flawed one because of these lies that we've been conditioned into. So if you are somebody who believes that you're connected to other people and that their wellbeing affects your wellbeing, then when you set up a boundary in your life, you are making that with the intention of contributing to that goal of saying that this rule for myself is something that will help me with my wellbeing and thus

impact you in a positive way as well, or vice versa. But if you have been conditioned into believing that your happiness is entirely and solely dependent on what you do for yourself and that nothing anybody else does ever affects you, which is how a lot of us think, even though it's completely illogical and we can unpack all of the reasons why that doesn't actually work that way, then your boundaries can become a series of walls that keep other people out and that bring you more and more into yourself in a way that often ends up backfiring because a lot of research has found that the more focused on yourself you become, the more unhappy you become. And the more isolated you become from

others, the more it affects your health, your quality of life, so many other downstream impacts. So it really comes down to this set of beliefs that you have, and then how you're using tools like boundaries to either break down those beliefs or to enforce them further. Okay. Let's say we're listening to this and we're like, yeah, I agree. I agree. Nobody wants to be Scrooge. There's a reason the Disney character is named Scrooge McDuck, right? Like he literally has piles of gold, right? That that he just rolls around in his piles of gold. I bet a lot of us would be like, yeah, but that's a problem I'd like to have. I'd like to have too much gold. I'd like to have my problem be I can't shut the door of my vault.

Let's say somebody is listening to this and they're like, yeah, I agree. We can't pursue money. We can't pursue money. We can't pursue fame. We can't pursue a claim for ourselves and not care about anybody else. That sounds like a terrible way to live. How do we know if we're happy? Is happiness never feeling sadness? What actually is happiness? Because if we don't know what it is, how do we know we've achieved it? That's a very big problem, isn't it? Happiness is not never being sad. It's not never being angry or lonely or frustrated. Happiness is experiencing all of your emotions, but feeling like you are living a life that's meaningful and purposeful for you, that you get

to be who you really are and share yourself with others in a way that makes their lives and the world better. And that goal, that experience will be filled with ups and downs because that's part of being a human being. You can't escape your humanity, right? You can't experience this perfect state of lasting contentment. And in fact, that is a message that we've been sold by companies and advertisements and the media. And trying to pursue that is just going to end up making you miserable. But if you

strive, if you set your sights on, I'm going to be who I am and I'm going to try and give of myself all of the things that make me me and do that in whatever way is accessible to me right now, then you will experience happiness. And not only that, but you'll make the world a better place at the same time. It's such an important point that being happy does not mean achieving a constant state of bliss. I love how you say that happiness comes from discovering who you are and sharing yourself in ways that help other people. help other people. This is something that I try to do. And the resources available to me are different than the resources available to you. And they're different than the resources available to a kindergarten teacher. And they're different than the resources available to a nurse. I cannot help you in a medical emergency. I do not have any of those resources. I can't do heart surgery on you. I don't have

those resources. So it's actually a good thing that we all have different resources. It's actually a huge benefit in my mind. But here's my question. And I think a lot of people feel afraid about this. When you are truly yourself and you are trying to put yourself out there to use your skills and your gifts to help other people, you are going to get rejected. You are going to get made fun of. You are going to have people tell you, Stephanie, you're the worst. You're the worst. And I don't like you for seemingly no reason at all. What are we supposed to do about the fact that when we truly embody who we really are, who we are meant to be, and we begin using our skills in ways that we believe are helping other people,

what are we supposed to do about all the people who don't like that, who become haters? What are we supposed to do about that? It's really hard, isn't it? I mean, I held myself back from being who I truly was for a very long time because I was afraid. I was afraid of what people would say to me. I was afraid of being judged. And all I feel now is regret that I wasted that time because there were people out there who didn't like me. And I think that it comes down to owning and recognizing that you don't have to help everyone. You don't have to please everybody. And that's pleasing is very different from helping as well. Your job is to be who you are and use who you are to help other people. And those other people, they might change over time. They might say,

you're here for me now. Maybe I won't need your support later in the future. But their opinions of you are not your business. They're not for you to have to worry about and stress about because you're focused on your job, which is being who you are. And so I think honestly, a part of it is embracing the fact that helping is not pleasing and that helping is something that doesn't have to be for everyone. It can be for a specific group of people and letting go of the people who aren't in that group at this point in time. What is the difference between helping and pleasing? I think that's an important point because if we spend our whole life trying to just please others, wear your hair the way other people like it, or say the things in the way other people

want you to, how do we determine the difference for ourselves between being like a compulsive people pleaser, because that's a recipe for disaster and a recipe for unhappiness is compulsively trying to please other people. How can we tell the difference between those things? I think that trying to please people is about trying to control their opinion of you so that they like you and trying to help people is trying to contribute to other people's well-being in a way that is self-determined and it's a choice that you make for yourself as well as to contribute to others and so if I'm reaching out to help somebody because I'm like oh I, I really want Sharon to like me. It's really important that she thinks I'm pretty and smart.

What can I do to make myself pretty for you? Exactly. I am going to probably do a lot of things that are not very helpful and not very meaningful. But if Sharon reaches out to me and she says, I'm having a really hard day, could you help me with something? And I help for the purpose of helping you to feel better, then that's a completely different thing. I'm choosing to do it for myself versus trying to control you at the end of the day. People-pleasing is not a form of service. It's self-interested at the end of the day, because it's about you. It's about the opinion of you as a person so that you feel okay. I think helping is about knowing that you're okay and then trying to use that to help other people feel okay. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey.

We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It is my girl in the studio. Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests. And we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Ladies 6.0 episodes every Wednesday. Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday

with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. You talk about this concept of an outcome lie, like you'll be happy when, and you give this example of the tennis great Andre Agassi who wins eight grand slams during his career. And somebody asked him, how do you feel? He's number

one. How do you feel? And he says, I felt nothing. I felt nothing. I mean, I believe him when he says that, but that's extremely sad. So tell us more about what the outcome lie is. The outcome lie is the belief that we've been conditioned into that says, if you can just achieve this goal, if you can just get to the top of that mountain, then you will be happy forever. And it ties into what you were talking about, about that imaginary state of permanent bliss of thinking that, hey, once I win eight grand slams, I'm never going to suffer ever again. And I think if any of us who've lived a little bit longer, look back on our lives and think about a goal that we set out to achieve, we thought it would make us happy. We worked really, really hard to get there. And then you get it and it lasts for what? Like a day. You're happy for

an hour maybe. And then you set your sights on the for what? Like a day. You're happy for an hour maybe. And then you set your sights on the next thing because you didn't get what you expected. And the problem is that we're pursuing the wrong goals. We're pursuing goals like fame and power and money and success because we think they will bring us that happiness. shows is that the more that you pursue goals that are about improving your own well-being and the well-being of others through connection, through personal growth, through contributing to your community, the more likely you are to be happy. So we have to take ourselves off of autopilot and reconsider the goals that we're setting for ourselves because they do end up driving our lives and influencing every choice that we make. You know, this epidemic of loneliness,

choice that we make. You know, this epidemic of loneliness, there's a lot of reasons for it. And it could take us an entire career to unpack all of the reasons for it. But some of it has to do with the way society is structured now, where we live far less communally than we used to. We have cars now, so we don't have to live near our parents. It's easy for us to go places. And in many ways, that's wonderful. It's allowed us to explore the world in ways people of the past never were able to. But I frequently hear from people who are like, how do I even make friends as an adult? I'm hearing what you're saying. I agree that we're meant to live in community,

that our happiness is inextricably linked to the well-being of others, that we won't find happiness if we are going it alone. And if we're trying to become Scrooge McDuck, that that's not going to lead to the new happy. But I think if what you're saying is true, the new happy. But I think if what you're saying is true, a big obstacle to overcome is how do adults even go about finding a community to care about, finding a community to contribute to? Do you have any suggestions, Stephanie? Yeah, I think it's so hard. I totally understand. The first step is to realize that you're already a part of communities. You already belong to places, but you have to claim them. And there have been these really interesting studies that have been done that have identified that the more ownership that you feel over something, the more inclined you are to take care of it. And so think about your home. You want to take care of it because it's your home and it belongs to you. But your community, unless you claim it, you don't feel that same sense of motivation. And so one of the first things that I often recommend to people is drive around your hometown or the place that you live or scan through your digital communities

and think, that's my community. I'm a part of this community. It belongs in part to me. And the more that you take ownership over those things, the more you start to think, well, there's something I can do here to contribute to it. And it really starts with something as simple as going to the coffee shop and striking up a conversation with the person who works there, or taking a bunch of books that you have down to your local library and donating them and having a chat with the person who's working at the desk. Having those little moments of connection are what kick off bigger ones. And it only takes one action and then you're a part of something and then you can start to build and strengthen those relationships over time. I think the tricky part for people is putting themselves out there.

The tricky part is being willing to go first. Yes. Right? Like the courage to be first. The courage to say, how are you? It's such a beautiful day outside. I love your Stanley Cup. There's a good one.

Yeah, yeah. I love your Stanley Cup. There's a good one. Yeah, yeah. I love your Stanley Cup. You should definitely not go up to a stranger and whisper, I love your Stanley Cup. It might not be the best step. That is not, don't listen to that advice. That's a bad idea. In fact, generally speaking, don't go up to people in public and whisper. Yeah, that seems like a good rule of thumb. Yeah, that's a good rule of thumb. It's kind of creepy. How are you? No, that's not. They're not going to be like, let's be best friends.

But you know what I'm saying? Like the courage to go first. Man, that seems like to many of us like an insurmountable obstacle. The courage to go first is being willing to accept rejection. And that is like, I just don't want to be rejected again. Yeah, I get it. I totally get it. Rejection sucks.

No one wants to feel that way. And it's a totally normal human impulse to want to avoid rejection. But think about a time that somebody went first with you and how that felt. You know, like somebody who said hi to you on the street or who helped you load your bag on an airplane or did something really small, but they just went first and how touched you were, how much it meant to you and how you probably still carry those memories with you. If you can recall those moments, then they touched you in some way. And even research finds that we hold ourselves back from giving compliments to people because we're afraid

of being awkward. And so we miss these moments of potential happiness that we can create just through the power of a simple compliment. And so maybe that's sort of like a safe way in. Everyone loves compliments. They activate the same part of your brain that getting money does. It's a win. You're not going to make them feel bad. You're going to make them feel great. So practice, you know, as you go about your daily life, try to give maybe like five compliments a day. Maybe that's an easy bridge in for people who are a little bit nervous. And it doesn't have to be disingenuous. You don't have to be like, oh my gosh, you're the most gorgeous woman in the whole world. You can just be like, pink looks so great on you. There is a way to be genuine about these things that have a very low rejection risk. Totally. And just the power that you have to make someone smile, that can

lead to changing your whole day too, right? And simple act of kindness has the power to make your day better. So if you're scared, think about the benefit to you as well at the end of the day, because we're creating these moments of shared happiness. And that can just begin with you being brave enough to say, you know, pink looks great on you, whatever it is that calls to you. You say that intrinsic goals bring you joy along the way. What is an intrinsic goal? So those are goals that are things like, hey, I want to grow as a person. I want to learn a new skill. I want to master a topic. I want to learn about World War II history. I want to help out at my local community garden. It's these impulses that come from within because one thing we haven't quite touched on is this idea that you

are intrinsically good. You are a good person and you can express that goodness and further develop it through these goals where you offer your goodness out to the world. And those are the goals that make you happy, not just at the end, but as you're pursuing them. And so they're by far the best bet if you want to be happy. I love that. You need to set aside this idea that like, when I achieve this thing, X, Y, and Z happiness will be mine. We saw that that did not happen with Andre Agassi, where he achieved an incredible feat and was like, I feel nothing. But the pursuit of a goal is what you're saying brings you joy along the way. I am learning to do needlepoint and it is so fun. So that's a great example. It actually brings me so much happiness to sit on my porch

amidst all of the bird song and the flowers growing in my yard and like working on my little handcraft. The repetitive motion is actually very good for your brain and stress reduction. You're making something beautiful. I don't even care if I'm good at it. I'm not trying to win needlepoint competitions. Who am I trying to impress? I'm trying to enjoy myself and it makes me happy. Yeah, that's such a great example.

It actually, it's so funny, isn't it? It gives me goosebumps to hear you talk about that. And that's something that I think we typically only associate with these achievement-oriented goals. But the beauty of hearing somebody talk about something that they enjoy just for the love of doing it, that's what we all deserve to have those experiences in our lives. Yeah. And it doesn't have... Nobody's saying everyone needs to needlepoint to be happy. I mean, I suggest it. I enjoy it. But other people love to cook and I love to eat the benefits of their hobby, but I don't enjoy cooking. I have other skills. I have other interests. I have other desires. And so whatever it is that seems even just a little bit appealing to you, it's such a great idea to just explore it. What's the worst that can happen? And something amazing might happen, right? Like I started making artwork just because I had this weird impulse that, oh, this might be helpful and meaningful for me. And then that led to my entire career now, which was a very,

you know, like I never would have expected that in a million, million years. And sometimes I've done things like I got into baking bread, of course, during the pandemic. And that's something I just do for joy. And I'm not trying to, as you said, win a sourdough competition. So there are those different paths that we can take. And if you feel, as you said, if you feel even a smidgen of interest of something, or if you're scrolling and you see a video of someone making something or doing something and you think, that seems cool, Follow that feeling. And those kinds of following that feeling, that often leads to a wonderful community. The community you can have surrounding whatever little thing it is, World War II history, growing your hydrangeas, making model cars. That community is often just a fantastic

place to start if you are wondering, how do I make friends as an adult? It's so true. And it's also, I think, really important because it makes it safer from rejection because those people aren't, they're not looking for a reason to reject you. They're probably going to be thrilled that you want to participate with them in this activity that you share. And they'll want to learn from you and help teach you. It's going to be the easiest way to make it safe to make those friends that you're looking for. Yes. And you automatically have something to relate to each other on. It's not like walking up to a stranger and target. You automatically have a shared interest and it gives you something to talk about. And it eliminates the scariness of having to make small talk with a stranger because you have something built in to talk about.

Yes. Genius. But I think it's also important to remember, and you talk about this in the book too, that happiness is not some grand destination that you're going to arrive at. It's not like the Biltmore estate is finally complete and I can move in and I'll feel happy. This big grand thing that you are trying to achieve or arrive at, when in reality, happiness is captured often in small moments through something that brings you joy from connection to community. And I think if we can refocus, pivot, in the words of Ross Geller, pivot away from this idea that we need to have, there's nothing wrong with big goals.

I am an ambitious person. I relate to that. But pivot away from this idea that we will achieve happiness if and when X, Y, Z thing has been completed. And think about it in terms of small moments of joy sprinkled throughout your life. And joy comes from a variety of ways. That is a much more achievable, sustainable way to look at this issue. I really agree with you. And I think when I think back on who I was as a person before I started doing all of this work and research, I missed so much of those moments of joy because I was so focused on trying to get somewhere else. And I completely neglected all of the good that was already in my life. And I didn't realize until after digging into all of this research that sometimes we spend all of this energy trying to make good things happen in our

lives and it completely detracts from experiencing the good things that already exist. And how heartbreaking. I don't want to go through my life missing those moments. I want to embrace them and savor them and feel like that's the point of living is experiencing those moments. I can't tell you how much joy I get from watching the sun come up through the trees at my house in the morning and just the way that it peeks through the little pine branches and seeing my flowers bloom. Every day they grow a little more or watching the snow

fall softly outside. I just love it so much. I get so much happiness and peace and joy from experiencing nature, from doing things with my hands that I enjoy, from reading a book. It's not about, for me at least, it's not about achievements or again, even though I would classify myself as an achievement driven person, but I find so much joy from other small, seemingly inconsequential things. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because, and part of this embrace of who you are, right? Might be that embrace of, I am somebody who has ambitions and dreams and things that I want to do. And I like to work, probably I'm assuming because you like the work that you do and it brings you fulfillment, right? That's not a bad thing. And in fact, it can be a huge source of joy,

but just don't stake your happiness on the end. If you're staking it all on, hey, once I get there, then everything's going to change. Then you might want to revisit these questions. But what you're describing is somebody who has those dreams and also finds the joy along the way. And that's ideal in many ways for someone like you. Who is this book for? Who should pick up the new happy? the new happy? It would be for you if you have ever thought, why aren't I happy yet? Or I have everything I thought I wanted and it's not really working. I'm not feeling any better. And it's also for people who are interested in making the world a better place. People who look around and think, hey, I think that things could be better here and I want to contribute,

but I don't know how to do it and want a guide that shows that here are the concrete steps that you can take to make the world better and they will also help you at the same time. What do you hope the reader, when they close the last page, takes and like tucks into their pocket and carries with them moving forward? I think my greatest hope would be that they tuck into their pocket the recognition that we're all connected and that the greatest source of happiness is found in helping others and contributing to those connections. That would be a dream come true. Thank you so much for your time. It was so great chatting with you today. I'm grateful for your work. And I really found so many important things to think about

and ways to reframe thinking about happiness in your book. And I'm just so delighted to speak with you today. Thank you so much. It was such a joy for me. I'll be carrying this moment of happiness with me. Thank you so much. You can find The New Happy at bookstores everywhere. Head to your local bookshop and pick one up there. Or if you want to support independent retailers, you can go to bookshop.org and order there.

Thanks for being here today. This episode is hosted and executive produced by me, Sharon McMahon. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. Our production assistant is Andrea Shampoo. And if you liked this episode, we would love to have you share it to social media or to leave us a rating or review. All of those things help podcasters out so much. Thanks for being here, and we'll see you again soon.