Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The State of Black History and Journalism in 2026

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

Simply teaching the facts in and out of the classroom has become an act of courage, and sometimes, real risk. Former history teacher Ernest Crim joins Sharon McMahon to talk about why Black history, civics, and knowing your rights are crucial to navigating power abuses, injustice, and democracy. He tells us why he keeps speaking up even when the system falls short. Plus, is reporting the facts partisan? Sharon speaks with Katie Couric about the changes in journalism over the last few years, and how polarization, paywalls, and fear of retaliation are reshaping news coverage. And be sure to read our newsletter at ThePreamble.com – it’s free! Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson (00:00:00) How to Teach Black History in Today’s Climate (00:20:39) Pam Bondi Congressional Hearing and Journalism in the Trump Era (00:32:54) Political Polarization and What Comes Next To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to the Preamble Podcast. This week, I have a special conversation for you that I think you'll love. I recently spoke with Ernest Crimm, who is an educator, producer, and author. His book, How Black History Can Save Your Life is Must Read. We discuss the importance of civics and schools and why learning about black history is crucial for everyone. Plus, my interview with longtime journalist Katie Couric. I'm Sharon McMahon, and this is the Preamble podcast. I recently spoke with educator and author Ernest Crimm, whose book How Black History Can Save Your Life Should Be on your reading list. Here is part of that conversation. I am a former classroom, U.S. history teacher of 12 years, but I always taught it from a black perspective and the perspective of the people. I was really motivated having been born and raised on the south side of Chicago and then I went to U.O.I. Central Illinois, got a chance to take a black history course.

That inspired me to teach. I mean, I'm sure everybody knows who you are, Like, as America's government teacher, where we come in with this, is we both made a decision to teach this important topic of social science outside the class. And what a time to be alive? So, like, I'm curious to know what was the moment where you decided that you had to begin to teach this important content for me, social science is the most important content in the world? Sorry, man.

Sorry, science. Sorry, English. We deal with the world. Okay. We help our kids think. What motivated you, though, to take that step? Well, first of all, it's really good to be with you. And I just want to say a very quick thank you for all of your work.

I want you to know and hear it from me that the work you do matters. Thanks. And that regardless of what is going to get thrown at you, I know you've had issues with getting kicked off of meta platforms. And often when you start getting over the target is when the flack gets the hardest. And you should use this as a sign to do whatever you're doing. even harder. And I know that it feels easy to be discouraged, especially in a moment like this where you're like, it's actually worse for me than it was 10 years ago. It's more dangerous for me than it was 10

years ago. I can completely understand that that is a discouraging environment to operate in. So I just want to take 10 seconds to just say, don't quit. Like the world needs your voice. Okay, but back to like why I started doing what I'm doing, it was in the fall of 2020. So mic drop. That's the full stop answer. It's September of 2020. We're already seeing the previews of like, oh, well, the election's about to get stolen, like seeding the entire ecosystem with things that are allegedly going to go wrong. And I really started noticing, like, a lot of people being confidently wrong on the internet, saying things that just like I couldn't believe were happening, things like the electoral college is a university you can graduate from. You know, like things that are just

objectively false. This is not even a matter of opinion. of like, who's the best candidate? This is like, that's not a real thing. There's no university of electoral college. That's not a facility that you can go to. So the number of people confidently wrong on the internet, it was intolerable. And I decided that I could either make a couple videos

that would hopefully outlive the comment section on Facebook, or I could spend the next six months arguing with strangers in the comment section. So it was just sort of a fateful decision to just make a couple of little, videos that I never thought would go anywhere, and it mushroomed into something much larger. How about you, though? I want to hear how you got started. Yeah, so for me, I always tell people, the person I am on the internet, the person I am now, is the same person I was in the classroom. I think as educators, though, we are taught to deval what we do in a sense. Like, people don't look at it as that important. People look at it as maybe a transitional career you go to or maybe

just a second career because you can't get another job. This, me was really a call it. My mom was an educator in Chicago public schools for nearly 40 years of principal and things like that too. I was on the verge of flunking out from college and I decided to take a black history course because it occurred to me that although I went to a black high school when I was in a black neighborhood, I had never really taken a black history course. I took that class and for the first time, this was actually 20 years ago this semester. That was the first time I cared about my education. And for me, it became a thing of we have a wealth of information, and a wealth of knowledge when I taught about,

I have to give this back. Because as a black man, oftentimes in this country, you began to internalize what you see on the outside and you think it's because of your own decisions or lack of. But what black history gave me was an understanding of the systemic issues that were at play. And there's a brother I follow a therapist named Resma Minicum.

He said, there's nothing wrong with you, something happened to you. And I think that's the best way to kind of encapsulate what history did for me. So I said, I got to teach. In six years into teaching, and that's when I dealt with the hate crime. I was actually recording it as it was occurring,

and it was escalating. So she calls us the N-word. She eventually spat on me and my wife, and she's calling the cops at the same time to help her out on the south side of Chicago at a majority black event. And when we left, we had all the evidence. So at that point, I was driven,

because I was only that educator behind closed doors. I was a little intimidated. So I came out my shell in that moment. I posted it online. I was asking for help to find a person, and then the news started contacting me. And then people wanted me to share my story in March of 2021. I made a video about Ida B Wales, and I called her, gee, I spoke the language of myself, my kids, my community, and it got more views than I had ever seen on any platform.

And I said, well, let me keep going. And by the following year, 2022, I was able to leave my teaching job. So I had to make a decision. And my vision was always, I wanted to be a black history teacher of the world, not just 30 kids in a classroom at a time. So when I tell these stories, it's so that we can connect it to the cycles of today and that we can better strategize. And it's been a journey. I never thought that we would be here, but I knew it was some work ahead of us. Yeah, yeah.

I don't know, like, what the ratio of educators to students is in your community, but I know that I have a lot of teachers in my community. but I know that I have a lot of teachers in my community. And so I hear from a lot of them about like, I work in an area that says that I'm not allowed to say that it was a racist policy of the United States federal government because that implies systemic racism. And systemic racism is critical race theory. And critical race theory is banned.

And those are not unusual sentiments that I hear from people regularly. And so I can really imagine what a difficult position so many teachers find themselves in today, trying to sort of thread the needle of keeping the wolves at bay, but also telling the truth. Think about what Florida was doing the past few years. When I went to speak to a group of kids, I want to say this was 2024. I spoke for Dr. King's holiday to high school students. And when I was going there, they had to prep me.

They told me like, look, okay, because Rhonda San just like this, this. and that. You can't say his name. You can't say Rod and Sanders explicitly, right? Even though it's obvious that what he's doing is countering what King was for, you cannot explicitly say. So I had to be very creative. And honestly, in any corporate setting, we already know that we can't call a thing a thing a thing, but we can't show you everything and you make the decision. So for the educators out there, especially those in history, especially those who I really grappling with this, I would highly recommend that, look, show the kids the obvious thing right there. Let them draw the conclusion. My middle school daughter just had to take and pass, you know, the Constitution. That's a requirement. And I taught it for the first, like, five years I was an educator. And it was always troubling to me, though, because we only got a semester for it. But it was so much to cover in a short period of time. If you are a government, a civics teacher in this moment, what would you say are some of the most pressing things that our kids have to walk away with right now?

You bring up a really good point, which is that children need to be taught not just one time. what their rights are. You know, in over half of states right now, you can graduate from high school without ever having taken a required government class. They are not required for graduation in over half of states. And in a large percentage of the remaining states, you only have to take one semester

of a government class to graduate from high school. And we would never say that you are proficient in a subject, having taken one semester of it in high school. We would never be like, you're fluent in Spanish. You took one semester. That's absurd. You cannot assume any level of mastery of a subject when a 15-year-old takes three or four months of it the one time.

So I would say that one of the things that collectively, especially as social studies, educators, but I would say this is true of educators more broadly and definitely of parents, that we need to be teaching our children what their rights are repeatedly, obnoxiously. The children need to be like, I already know that. So one of the things I would always, you know, when I was in the classroom, I wanted to make sure that my students knew more than the average adult. I wanted them to finish that class being able to tell me who your elected representatives are. Who are your senators?

Who is your representative? I wanted them to remember what the three branches of government are. the number of people who work in the government who cannot tell you the three branches of government is really astounding. Not on my watch. So I instituted this. What became almost a joke, but it worked, was that every single test that we had for the entire year asked that same series of questions. Now, it went on to talk about other things too, but it asked the same series of questions so that children would be forced to move that information into their long-term memory. I want you, to move that into your long-term memory so that when you get to be a 34-year-old adult and you're

confronted with the situation in Minneapolis, Minnesota, or Chicago, Illinois, that you are able to recall what the Fourth Amendment does for you, what the First Amendment does for you. If you understand what your rights are, you can much better advocate for yourself and your neighbors. And if you don't understand what your rights are, it becomes easy to become manipulated and taken advantage of. That is wow. You said about half of this country. Half states do not require a government class to graduate from high school.

To me, it's a reflection of the purpose of our public education system as opposed to what it should be for. Because even if we say half, right, then I wonder how many within a half are actually teaching it in a manner in which our kids are learning the application skills. Because you cannot teach USSR. You can't teach black kids or civics and remove that First Amendment, those bill of rights from this moment. Because there are places that require this that will say, okay, kids, take this test, learn the context of the Boston Massacre. But then if you try to walk out because you are protesting against this administration of which you believe in, you'll be reprimanded for that. It's counterproductive, but it speaks so much to the contradiction that exists now. And I want to give folks a couple ideas too, right?

So I think a question you'll probably get, and I get a lot when folks are speaking to us or just wanting to learn more. They say, what can I do? How can I get involved? And I would say even based on your explanation, I would tell them my journey in terms of when I dealt with the hate crime and I started to think about what I could do to be engaged more. I started to think locally. So I started to look up the city council. So I would say for everybody out there, first of all, let's make sure that, of course, you registered to vote. Let's make sure that you know when the next election is, right? Because local elections historically, a big. At least like around me in the county I'm in adjacent to Chicago. I'm talking 10% voter turnout. And that's 10% of registered voters. We ain't even talking about everybody, right? It should be at least the same as the federal really more because it's local, right?

It's your neighborhood. It's your street. It's your school. It's the park. Find your city council member. Go to some of these meetings. If you don't have the courage to speak up yet, at least make your face show. Because when I started going to these meetings, I was the only one there.

It was me and a couple of borders. We were the only ones, right? I started to speak up. that is when I found my tribe because when I started to speak up about different things and these things are shown locally that you find other people who care. Beyond that, go to the school board meeting.

If you're really concerned about what's going on now, you as a independent citizen, you are not in the school. You're not a teacher. You can't speak on behalf of the teachers who care more than they feel they can. So you want to make sure, look, our kids should be learning more about their rights every year.

You go to the public comment section and you say that. You feel like your kids should be learning black kids or it should be mandated. You go to the school board say that. And here's what you ban do. After you do that, y'all, you got to make sure you come back the next time with some more people. Because the first time you said, they're going to be shocked. They might pay attention. They might say, that's just one person. We don't care. If you come back with the organization, they go care. The best way to get organized is to join an organization.

Is that simple? Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody thinks they need to reinvent the wheel from scratch. How do I get the president to do blah, blah, blah. They think like they personally need to roll this boulder up the hill. No, there's power in numbers. This is how it has always worked. And the best way to get numbers is to join an organization that does the work that you agree with. I want to ask you, too, what can parents, teachers, community members do to advocate for proper representation of black history in schools?

What can they do if their school is falling short? And the parents are like, my kids are only learning about Rosa Parks as a sidebar that one day in February. And that's like the extent of their Black history education. What can citizens and teachers do to make sure that their kids are not graduating from high school, knowing two names, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks? Yeah. Or as I say, the fang five is Taying is Parks, X, Tubman, and Douglas. I think you'd be lucky to get Douglas and X.

I think you'd be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. And what I would say is I'm almost certain that your school isn't doing enough. I would guarantee it because, for one, the best way to get this information is going to be from people who have the lived experience or people who, if they don't look like us, have specialized in that pedicage. I would elevate people like James Lohen, a white brother who uncovered sundown towns by using his privilege to go into these spaces to navigate that. I would just say, like, from my perspective, I offer, I mean, I have a book that's, you know, course, pay, but I have free resources, too. Outside of my videos, I have a free Black

History Month. Of course, I call it Black History Month and Beyond. Like, it's 30 days. It was a course that was actually Emmy nominated for CBS Chicago. You can incorporate that. You don't have to know a lot. Just press the button once a week. But I would also say that, especially if you are not black, your voice in this matters a lot because we've been speaking up for ourselves for a long, long time, right? Yes. That's like, we ain't knew to this. We've true to this. We've been doing this. like we understand that black cares for it doesn't just benefit black folks. This is something that if you learn that perspective, it's going to enrich us all because as a country,

we cannot be whole unless we put the pieces back together with black folks and, of course, the indigenous community as well. One thing that I hear from white folks is they're afraid of doing it wrong and they're afraid of stepping on people's toes. And they're afraid of saying the wrong thing and accidentally inadvertently, even if they have good intentions of offending, or causing more harm. And so it causes them to shrink back from advocating.

What would you say to them in this moment, even if when they're listening to you say, I agree with that. Like, I need to use what I have to better advocate for others. What would you say to somebody who's afraid of doing it wrong? I would say, first of all, how much do you really care about the future of the people who live here, including your children?

Being wrong, yeah, that's a fear. But there are people now who fear walking outside. My ancestors, like, I mean, you could be in prison with being for reading a book. So we got to give ourselves that perspective, you know. So you don't wait to the perfect time to do things. You perfect it as you go. I'll tell you the same thing I'll tell students, right, because a lot of times when, you know, you'll be speaking to a group of kids and you'll ask a question and the kids will just stare.

And you can also tell when there's a kid who might know or just wants to raise their hand, but they're hesitant. For everybody listening, white folks, everybody really. You're not watching this because you got it all together, right? Like, I know I ain't got it all together. We're here to learn. So sometimes that takes metaphorically raising your hand and getting it wrong and staying curious.

I always just people based off intent. There have been times when I've been microaggressed and I know it wasn't intentional, it stills things a little bit, but I know that that person didn't have ill will. I can't take everything personal, right? There's a difference between that and somebody explicitly targeting me like the person did almost 10 years ago. I think that we have to realize, look, this country was founded on the tennis of race, and genocide. So the culture that you were brought up in wants you to believe that you are

superior, wants you to believe that you're perfect, wants you to believe that you are greater than all the rest. If you want to begin to unlearn that, you just have to be like, yo, haven't figured out anything and be okay with making a mistake, but also to be in community with folks that will not shame you for being human. I think that's such a good point that we have to have the humility to say what we don't know. And we have to have the wherewithal to educate ourselves. And we have to understand that the worst thing that could happen to us is not making a mistake that one time. Yeah. Just be willing to humble yourself and say, look, we're going to figure this out together. If you're not with people who are going to call you and when you make a mistake, then you're

already in the wrong circle. So I want to say this too before we go. Let's say you were going to speak to a school in Minnesota and you got held up by some real bad traffic that you just running late. All right? And you only get an opportunity to say one thing to these kids and Minneapolis right now and just really for the world. As a government teacher, this country's government teacher, what are you going to say? I think the most important thing that I would want people to know at this moment is not a set of facts. You can always learn the facts. What I would want people to know is something that Brian Stevenson taught me, which is that hope is not a feeling.

that hope is an orientation of the spirit and that in a moment that feels hopeless when all you have to do is scroll social media for 30 seconds and you're like Epstein files, Iran, ICE, the list is never ending at a moment that feels completely hopeless. Nothing I do matters. Nothing I can do will make a difference. It's very easy to fall prey to that. And if we're waiting for a sense of hope in order to take action, we're waiting for blue skies and chirping birds, then we are going to keep on waiting. And that we need to stop thinking about hope as a feeling to experience and we need to start thinking about it as a set of actions to take. And that is how we will grow to experience the feeling of hope. And that is the place from which good things in this country can grow. when we believe that the story is not over yet, when the ending has yet to be written,

when we have the ability to impact the ending, that changes how we show up in the world, that changes how we show up for our neighbors, that changes how we advocate for ourselves and others. And so if I only had five minutes, I would want people to know that this end has not yet been written and that you get a chance to impact that is. That was power.

Check out Ernest Crimm on Substack, or you can get his book, How Black History Can Save Your Life at bookshop.org or wherever you get your books. When we come back, my conversation with Katie Couric. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. No matter where you are in your romantic journey, married, dating, single, or focusing on yourself, there's no timeline you have to follow. Especially in February, it can feel like there's pressure to have everything figured out. But therapy can help you get clear on. what you want and remind you that imperfect is normal. Therapy is an opportunity to identify what's holding your relationships back and work towards something lighter and healthier. BetterHelp connects you with

fully licensed therapists in the U.S. and handles the matching process for you. And if your match doesn't feel right, you can change therapists any time. With over 6 million people helped and a 4.9 out of 5 average rating for live sessions, BetterHelp has made a real difference for so many. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash Sharon. That's B-E-T-T-E-R-H-E-L-P-P-com slash Sharon. Life can feel overwhelming, but you don't have to go through it alone. On my podcast, From the Heart with Rachel Brathen, I share openly and vulnerably about everything life brings us and what we can learn by living with our hearts a little bit more open. Every Friday, a new episode brings you a new story with topics on self-care, motherhood, healing, and more. You are enough, just the way

you are. This podcast is a reminder of that. Follow and listen to From the Heart with Rachel Brathen wherever you get your podcasts. When news first breaks, it's everywhere. In the headlines on TV, all over social media, in your push notifications. It's like a storm. But the coverage leaves you feeling unsatisfied. Well, that's where we come in. I'm Magna Chakrabardi, host of On Point. We ask the questions that still need answers. We analyze the meaning behind the news and why it matters to your life. We equip you with the knowledge you need to face the next newsstorm. On point is clarity when it counts.

Subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts. Joining me now is longtime journalist Katie Couric. So much is happening. It's difficult to even prevent whiplash, it seems, in terms of like the number of news stories that are developed. every day, and also the incredible magnitude of so many of the news stories. It seems like there's never a slow day anymore. And I wanted to get your take on a couple of different matters, but the one that is most pressing in my mind is about what happened yesterday on Capitol Hill with Pam Bondi and what

is going on with the Epstein files. Have you ever seen anything like this? all of your decades of journalism. You know, I've covered some contentious hearings. Obviously, Brett Kavanaugh's hearing, for example, got quite heated. But I think you're right that what we saw yesterday was really truly unprecedented. I think the level of the weird preparation, the APO research at every turn, the notebooks full of, obviously well thought of. Binders. Yes, binders full of men, not binders full of.

women, but binders full of immigrants, binders full of criminals. I mean, it was so orchestrated and it completely defeated the purpose of what the hearing was all about. And it was extremely frustrating, I think, for anyone watching it. It was also so disrespectful to what a congressional hearing is designed to do, which I think, you know, you come here to testify. We ask you questions. There's a certain protocol and a certain kind of tradition. for congressional hearings that was completely ignored and really perverted, I think, by Pam Bondi. Yeah. I have watched more than my fair share of congressional testimony and combative congressional testimony. I don't have an expectation that everybody's going to sit there nicely and say, yes, ma'am, no ma'am.

But the level of vitriol and the deflection. Also, Sharon, I think the snarkiness. Yes. and also such an incredible lack of compassion for the women that were sitting immediately behind her. Even if you think this entire hearing is a farce, at least have enough respect for the people who are sitting immediately behind you to extend them a modicum of compassion for what they did. Well, she did mention, didn't she mention, though, at one point, she said she has a tremendous amount of sympathy for the victim. So I have strong opinions, but I also want to make sure that we are attempting to kind of give her a little credit for saying a little something, right? Obviously, it wasn't enough, but it was obviously not compassionate. I think that she was performing for an audience of one. I think probably Donald Trump and Stephen Miller and somebody else maybe on that team coached her going in and said,

this is what we need you to do. And I think you're right. She could have very easily turned around and said, thank you for being here. We care about what happens to you. This is why we released, you know, three million pages of these additional files. I'm sorry.

And she could have said, and it would have been warranted, Sharon. I'm sorry, previous administrations didn't act on this issue in a timely manner. But I think she was so wound up and so adversarial from the get-go. It's almost like she couldn't change gears, you know. Yeah.

And the fact that when somebody would ask her a question, you know, they would ask her a really basic question, she would look down at her binders for like, well, what insult can I insert now? Right. She'd look down and be like, you are a failed politician. And then it was almost like she was reading, choose your insult from a list of 10 insults. Let me turn to the page on Jared Moskowitz. You know, in fact, he even played on that where he was like, what does my page say in your little binder there? It was so interesting, right? So for every person who questioned her, every Democrat, really, because it was so striking to me to see tonally how different the questions were.

And it honestly left me feeling so deflated and depressed about the prospect of Republicans and Democrats working together on anything. But as soon as she was asked, a question by someone from a particular state or district, she was automatically, to your point, Sharon, looking for the APA research to the point where I don't even think she heard half the questions. No. I watched for about an hour and a half, and the whole thing was really shocking. Shocking is a great word for it. And I have another thing to talk about that was very shocking, happened a couple of weeks ago, which was the raid on the Washington Post reporter's home. and I know you've been a journalist for such a long time.

And this is just one episode in a long string of attacks on the press. The list goes on and on. And I think, Sharon, that we saw the lane of the foundation to so distrust in the press, start with the first Trump administration, where suddenly fake news became a powerful earworm that was used every time there was a negative story about Donald Trump. And I want to rewatch this documentary called Getney Roy Cohn, because so many of his tactics can be traced back to Roy Cohn, the lawyer who represented McCarthy and then became quite friendly with Donald Trump and kind of his mentor and

role model. And part of the problem is the media itself has become so polarized. I think about this all the time because when I got into journalism, you know, it was a big. very different environment. It was before social media, before everybody was getting their news and information, before everyone with an opinion could express it. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Joanne Littman, who was the head of USA Today and is a longtime print journalist and teaches journalism at Yale now. We're talking this morning because we're trying to develop a documentary on the news business and what has happened to news in America because I think it's really important and it's happening so quickly.

And we were saying, is there even a place to do just the facts? Because people need to understand, in which you do such a great job of Sharon, and I try to do on my platforms to kind of put things in context to explain what this means and how unprecedented something is and why this is unconstitutional and why it's against the law. And so it would be great if we could get the facts without all the punditry. I just don't know if there's a place for that anymore. What do you think, Sharon? It's really challenging.

I can tell you in the independent media space that this is a very commonly felt sentiment amongst people who are trying to say things like, let's look at both sides of an issue. Let's talk about what the facts are. What ends up happening in an age of reader or viewer-supported journalism is that eventually the facts will be unfavorable towards somebody that you like. And when you hear those unfavorable facts, they don't like it. They don't like the way that feels. It messes with their perception of reality. And when you try to tell me that my judgment or my perception is wrong, that judgment then feels like an attack on their personal identity.

and they feel like, why would I pay for this? Why would I pay for you to sanewash Donald Trump? The perception is if you are on the right, if you say one mean thing about Trump, then this is fake news. Right. And I have one other concern about this, which is that when we have reader, viewer,

subscriber-supported news, which, of course, this is what I do. So this is not a shade kind of argument. But what ends up happening is that people who do care about the facts, because they need to earn a living at it, they have to put food on the table, we do end up paywalling good information away from the people who perhaps most need it. And young people in particular, who are not out here paying for people's substacks. Gen Z is not out here doing the $8 a month, whatever.

By and large, that is not what they're spending their money on. They're getting their news from social media. And so consequently, we are putting verifiable facts, quality journalism behind a paywall where only people can afford to pay for it can access it. And then we are leaving the general public to sort of figure out and decipher what's real and what's not real on the free version of the Internet. And that is a big change from the way that the media ecosystem used to be. I would argue, though, Sharon, that Donald Trump changed everything. You know, this unitary executive power that we've seen that you know all about, it is truly unprecedented what is happening in this administration.

That's true. When you even talk about journalism, you cannot separate Donald Trump and this level of corruption and the kinds of things that are happening in this administration. particularly 2.0, and really compare it to any other moment in time, journalistically. So I think that's part of the problem. And if you truly believe that he poses an existential threat to democracy, that we are marching towards authoritarianism, then it is very hard to both sides what's going on. Right? And I think so many people feel that way. And they're horrified with what is unfolding in this country. And if I were on NBC or CBS,

I could never say this stuff. Right. But now, because I'm an independent journalist, I am free to sound the alarm and to talk to experts and people with real experience and historical context and perspective to talk about what's going on and to get people what I think is really important information they need to know. I think Desperate Times call for desperate measures and you have to call it as it is now. And I think you believe that too. Yeah, it would not be accurate to say, well, Pam Gandhi and Democrats got a little spicy on Capitol Hill. That's not an accurate reflection of what actually happened yesterday. And in an effort to try to appease people,

I do think in some cases there's like a soft peddling of the facts because they know how irate some people get when you try to say things like, what happened yesterday on Capitol Hill was unprecedented, unprofessional, and cruel. It's not only fear, though, of alienating viewers. It's also fear of alienating the Trump administration. And we've seen that time and time again where corporate interests basically conflict and run up against journalistic integrity.

So you're kind of, as you said, Sharon, kind of soft peddling some of the harder facts. And now you don't want to have repercussions launched on you by the Trump administration. I mean, it's really a very bad situation. More of my conversation with Katie when we come back. I'm back now with Katie Couric. What do you think has changed, Katie? Is this who Trump has always been, or do you think he has fundamentally changed?

I think probably a little of both. I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist, everyone, but it's pretty clear Donald Trump is a malignant narcissist. And I think that your narcissism grows as your power expands. And so he had a small, circle in New York City, he always was very aggrieved that somehow the creme de la crem of New York society didn't embrace him. So we always had a bit of a chip on his shoulder, I think. But I think as his power increased, his narcissism did as well. And also the

malignant part of his narcissism increased. So I think there was a seed of who he was. always, and now with the power, it's become even worse. What would you say to somebody who feels like, well, the last election, we had two bad choices. I could never vote for Harris for a variety of reasons. And Trump has more policies that I agree with. He's done more to close the border than I think Harris would have done. I don't have to like his personality. He's the president, not a pastor.

I hear people say things like to that effect all the time. Do they still feel that way? Oh, very much so. Yes. Many people feel like he's doing what I voted for him to do, which is close the border, you know, have a great economy. I don't need to like him personally. He has the policies that I like.

What would you say to somebody who feels like, no, that's still true? I guess I would just talk to them about some of the things that we're seeing all around us. Do they feel comfortable with the way ICE is behaving? You know, this is part of the problem, too, though. People who are saying that to you have a specific news diet and they're getting affirmation, not information. They're getting very selective material from commentators who are basically lifting the president up and supporting everything he does and never criticizing him. And even I would venture to say not covering news that shows him in a bad light. And that's why I do feel getting back to the Pam Bondi hearings that we are just two different Americas now. Where do you see the Trump presidency ending? Having covered many administrations, having so many years of experience, covering politics and national affairs, where do you see this ending?

God, Sharon, how the hell do I know? I mean, I would like to say or believe that at some point, human decency and morality and a certain, you know, level of respect for our fellow citizens and our country would have to prevail, we have real problems and real issues to deal with. Because I do think that income inequality is at the root of a lot of the problems in this country. And I think we have to get back to having a stronger middle class and have opportunities for people. This is the first generation, as you know, where the kids aren't going to do better than their parents. And so I think that the Democrats really need to coalesce around a unifying message.

I think Congress needs to ring a president in, especially if he's trying to act like a king. I mean, you're an expert as much as I am in terms of history and studying past leaders and trends. How do you see it ending, Sharon? Well, obviously, I'm not able to prognosticate the future, just like. You aren't. But I do think the ascendancy of Trump will end, as all cults of personality do. And if people are not familiar with the term a cult of personality, it's a political science term that talks about a political movement that surrounds one individual. I don't know that there is an era parent to the mega movement. I don't know that J.D. Vance commands the same sort of loyalty that Trump does.

But I do think the pendulum of history always swings. We have very consistently in the United States in the modern era swung back and forth between Republican and Democratic presidents. So I do think that pendulum swing is already in motion. The pendulum swing of the midterms is already pretty strongly in motion away from the Trump administration. I think Democrats at this moment are liking their chances in the House during the midterm election. it happens because people move the pendulum. You know, Martin Luther King talks about the moral arc of the universe. That moral arc doesn't bend just because it exists.

It bends because people reach up and pull it down. So the idea that the pendulum will swing is true, but how far it will swing is dependent upon how much people care to swing it. So I can't tell you exactly what will happen with Trump or what will happen with MAGA or what will happen with JD Bands. But I do know the pendulum is going to swing and how far and how fast it's going to swing will depend on the people. You know, it's interesting. I was looking at some of the comments. And, you know, I agree. All of this anger and hatred, even between left and right Republican Democrats, is so corrosive. And I really do believe we want a leader. I don't know if it's possible in this day and age who have. you know, a moral center, who has compassion, who doesn't govern through insults and hate and demonizing the opposition.

And I really am excited to see some leaders emerge who will restore our faith in ourselves and our country. It's needed. It's sorely needed. I think most Americans would agree with that, Katie, that we need leadership that is compassionate that cares about these fundamental American values that are put down in the preamble to the Constitution, that America at her best will be just peaceful, good, and free. And I don't know that most Americans would say, yes, we are on the path towards America's best self, that America's North Star is pointing in the right direction at this moment. A good leader inspires people to be their best. They would inspire the country towards a more just nation, towards a nation that cares about the common good, towards a nation that wants to peacefully coexist amongst ourselves and our neighbors

despite our differences, who would want to prop up and promote the ideas of freedom that so many people have fought and died for in this country. Equality and opportunity, you know, and I'm sure you have strong feelings about this whole idea of nationalizing elections. And, you know, are elections going to be free and fair? And are they going to try to repress the vote by having, you know, the National Guard and ICE people at polling stations to scare off people and, you know, perpetuating this notion that undocumented immigrants are voting at record levels that he's obsessed with, which just isn't true. And you talk about, like, trying to cover this administration fairly when the foundation.

of everything they believe in is based on a lie. It's really difficult to do that. Sometimes I think about if I really, really care deeply about somebody and then I found out, think about you're married to a spouse that you love with your whole heart, and you find out that your entire relationship has been based on a lie, how much that would hurt you. And I think sometimes about this whole election fraud scenario

that for so many years, people have been lied to. The entire foundation is a lie. That the 2020 election was stolen. That Mike Pence could have done something to stop the election from being certified. That, you know, they just didn't find 11,000 votes in Georgia. Or that the insurrection was peaceful. I mean, even the president has said that.

And it's sort of like this incongruity. you know, kind of like the eagle song, you can't hide your lion eyes. You know, they say something that is completely antithetical to what you witness in real time. So it's really hard to support that in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. Our thanks to Katie for joining us. You can find her on Substack at Katie Couric. And be sure to read our weekly magazine at the preamble.com.

It's free. Join hundreds of thousands of readers who still believe understanding is an act of hope. I'm your host and executive producer Sharon McMahon. If you enjoy this show, please like, share, and subscribe these things help podcasters out so much. Our supervising producer is Melanie Buck Parks, and our audio producer is Craig Thompson. I'll see you again soon.