Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The Value of Building Civic Friendships with Dr. Kerry Sautner

Episode Date: June 12, 2023

On today’s episode of Here’s Where It gets Interesting, Sharon welcomes guest Dr. Kerry Sautner, the chief learning officer at the National Constitution Center. Kerry and Sharon talk about civic education, and how it can be a building block for a great democracy–but just as important as learning from our past is learning how to communicate and collaborate in the present. Join us to learn more about the National Constitution Center, and the value of civic friendships and access to America’s full history. Special thanks to our guest, Dr. Kerry Sautner, for joining us today. Hosted by: Sharon McMahon Guest: Dr. Kerry Sautner Executive Producer: Heather Jackson Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, friends. Welcome. So excited that you're here. I am joined by Keri Sautner today. And you are going to want to stick around for this conversation because she works at the National Constitution Center. And we are going to talk first of all about the Constitution, but all about civic education, all about United States history. If you are a parent, if you are a teacher, if you are a teacher, if you are somebody who is interested in any of these topics, you are going to love this one. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. Well, I am very excited today to be chatting with Keri Sautner. First of all, I love the work you do. I love the

National Constitution Center, and I'm very excited to hear from you. So I appreciate your time today. I'm excited to be here. I feel like we are all big fans of yours, and we work with teachers across the country. So we're always talking about you and how much we learn from your program and how much it just compliments what we do. So huge fan over here. Thank you for having me. Oh, I want to start like, okay, first of all, you know, not everybody knows what the Constitution Center is.

Is it a place where the Constitution is? Is it boring? Those are the two, the two questions in people's minds today carrie i will i will help alleviate that number one it is not boring like it is but that is totally okay if people get that vibe because we are a museum in philadelphia but we're a national organization and so where you see it is sometimes like people will walk in with a little bit of like, oh, you know, my mom drug me here or my cousin made me come. And they walk out like skipping and you hear go, that was really fun. And you also hear like the surprise in their voice. And I'm like, see, we're not boring.

We're not stuffy. We're not dusty. You don't need a degree in constitutional law to visit us. It's not a library where you have to be silent the entire time you're here. They would never hire a lot of loud educators like myself if we were allowed to be quiet. But you're right. When people are quiet in our exhibits, I'm like, no, no, no. This is about talking. This is about sharing ideas and thoughts and having conversations with each other. The Constitution is very energetic, so we should be energetic when we're talking about it. I love that. Okay. So the National Constitution Center is a museum. And what kind of exhibits can one find there, just if we're going to visit the actual physical museum? So it is absolutely beautiful. It's on the most historic square mile

in America. So if you ever come to Philadelphia and you see Independence Hall and the Liberty Bell, we're right beside them. We're literally lined up with them. When you walk through our doors, you can go into an exhibit on the moment of the signing of the Constitution and all of the statues of the men that were there who signed it and the three dissenters who refused. We have the Bill of Rights, we have the Constitution, we have the 14th Amendment, the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendment, and the 19th Amendment. So we have all those amazing artifacts, but it really is the story of we the people. It's the story of the people who helped write that Constitution and the story

of the people who weren't really included in that constitution in their fight to ensure that we were all included. So my favorite exhibit is the Reconstruction exhibit. It is the first permanent exhibit in the United States devoted to Reconstruction, just a time period after the Civil War, three major amendments, and it is powerful. It is so moving and it is like American history. You got like major highs where you're cheering and also major lows where you're in tears. But it is really the story of us and really exciting. And now you'll really want to come visit me there. We're redoing our main exhibit because it's our 20th anniversary. And the first exhibit will open this September. And it's on the First Amendment and the five freedoms of the First Amendment.

So new stuff coming, too. The National Constitution Center also has tons of digital resources. It also has all kinds of curriculum. It also has an incredible website. And I want to get to that. We will get to that. incredible website. And I want to get to that. We will get to that. But I really want to talk a little bit about the concept of civic education in the United States. I hear one of two things from people that I speak to. One is people who feel like, well, people today know nothing. They

don't know anything about the Constitution or our history, and we're woefully uneducated when it comes to civics. And then the other group that I speak to says that the up-and-comers in this country, Gen Z, are more civically engaged than any generation before them, that they know how to mobilize in ways because they're so familiar and comfortable with technology, that they understand more than any generation before them the importance of civic engagement. So where do you sit on this divide? And what is your perspective? A couple things. So I love dilemma thinking when we have multiple things that we're looking at, but it doesn't turn into

this or that, but it's this and that. And we kind of pull them together. And that's in so many ways, what you said, it's this and that. So we just saw the NAEP data come out, nation's report card, and we saw our history scores plummet and our civic scores dip. And what we teach is constitutional history. So it is unbelievably powerful. You can't talk about the constitution without talking about history. They're connected. And so, yeah, we're seeing lots and lots of students that need more support. We see lots of lots of 20-somethings and adults that don't know enough about their constitution, know enough about their history. But we also at the same time see

that history books are some of the number one books that people get on their Kindles or buy in bookstores. So it's not that the desire is not there. It's not that the interest isn't there. And people are absorbing this information from the news as well. We just need to make sure that our sites are robust, that they're nonpartisan, they give people all perspectives. And you're right. At the same time, we're seeing a generation of young people that know how to engage like never before. Now, imagine if we put those two together and give our students that absolutely know that being a part of democracy means I have to do something. I have a responsibility and a right to be a part of this democracy. And then give them the tools that they need from our past

so we can understand what's happening and know how to work the system and utilize the Constitution to make change for our country. I love that. You can't change what you don't understand. If you want to change something meaningfully and in a lasting way, you have to understand it. You have to understand the intricacies of it. If I'm a heart surgeon and I need to change someone's heart structures, I have to understand that organ extremely well to make good and lasting change. And I have often said the same thing about government. You can't

change what you don't understand, or you're going to get swept up in something that you're like, well, I did not know that. So understanding the system is the very first step to being able to either uphold something that you think is amazing, like the First Amendment. We all agree. So happy that's there. But maybe there are things that need to be changed too. So what do you think are some of the first steps that need to be taken if we want to create a citizenry who truly does understand the Constitution, and by extension, the government as a whole. I love the way you said that. And it's so true. You would never walk into a heart surgeon and be like, sure, cut me open. But you didn't have enough classes in this and enough time studying

this like bazunkers. But we actually ask our people in our country to know a lot about the Constitution without enough supports around them. So I think twofold around this is how do we engage in more learning around this in schools, in K through 12 schools and public, private, homeschool communities. That's fantastic. I think that's really important. That's a great way, more civics, more history, more time, more support for the teachers that are doing the work. So they feel really strong and comfortable with the content. You know, making sure that our students have nonpartisan, high quality resources. Unpack those primary sources from the past and say, what were they thinking when they set this up? Because those big values and principles are what bind us together

and hold us through these trying points. But at the same time, when we're thinking about adults need to do this too, it's not just all on the kids. It's not next generation. We all have to be invested. So think about that kitchen table you're at. So for us, so important to learning history and civics in the constitution is learning how to listen to one another at the same time. And just because somebody's opinion isn't the same as yours in the Constitution, maybe there's parts of the First Amendment that you love and somebody else thinks that they're not so great. Talk about it and listen to each other. So it's the knowledge, but it's those skills and behaviors that really work together in our democracy to make us healthy. And that's what we need to work on. Yeah, I call it listening to understand versus listening to respond. And it's like what you're

saying, like when you're listening to respond, you're just like waiting for your moment to leap in versus actually trying to understand someone else's point of view. And this is something that is embedded in our constitution. It's something that's embedded in our democracy. When they were writing the constitution, it wasn't like they all sat around in Philadelphia and were like, that's right. You know, that's right. Agreed. And then like they all put their stamp on and they were like, agreed. We all agree. I mean, like 25% of the people went home before it was done, Carrie. They were like, bye, I'm not doing this.

For a variety of reasons, I'm sure. But the idea that like one quarter of them couldn't even make it to the end, couldn't even make it from May to September and they went home, that's ridiculous by today's standards, right? This whole podcast is going to be me laughing. But I mean, like people don't even realize that. They think it's like very much like just men in wigs being like, that's correct, agreed, principles of democracy. When in reality,

there was a lot of disagreement. Yes. And it got heated. I mean, not like maybe screaming matches, but it got heated. People were ready to walk out and say like, I'm done. You can't even listen to me. Like there's a lot of emotion there, but you're right. So many people were like, they're peacing out on day two. Hamilton left for like over a month and he left because he was, didn't think it was going to work. But so many key people did stay. And they stayed with it and brought more people into the fold. And that's, like you said, listening to understand and listening to build together. And Hamilton is a great example of how at our country's inception, at the Constitution's

inception, after we decide, well, we're going to need a president. And that person should be George. George is our choice. George did not surround himself with people who were like, whatever George thinks, I agree with. If you think about his cabinet, if you think about Jefferson and Hamilton, who were total enemies at that point, really had very different views of what the country should be and how it should be governed. He wanted to hear all the ideas before making his decision. He wanted to hear all the ideas. And I think that's something that we've gotten away from. What if somebody has a good idea, but they have the wrong letter behind their name? Are we going to discount their

really good idea because they have an R or a D and we're the opposite? The idea that we shouldn't take the best ideas is the opposite of a meritocracy. It's the opposite of what's good for the country. And you can see that from the very beginning. That is brilliant. That is so perfect and is exactly what we've been doing to ourselves in this country. We've been isolating ourselves around, and you can watch the data reports on this, kind of isolating ourselves more and more around people that think like us. And so we talk about this at work all the time. We talk about civic friendships. So you could have a friendship with somebody else and you get along and you wear the same outfits, you go to the same restaurant. That's great.

Sometimes you need civic friendships and there are the ones that should stretch you. And you know what? Maybe you're not going to go to the mall together and go out for hamburgers together, but you are going to engage in conversation. And there's somebody that thinks differently than you. And where does this happen? Sometimes it happens at schools, but also for the adults, it happens in the workplace. You talk to people with different thoughts in the workplace as well. And this is where you can kind of stretch your civic skills and kind of work at being engaged in a democracy and looking. I love the way you said that.

Our whole point of doing this is because from these conversations, what we get is a better outcome for all of us. And so you have to test out the waters and you have to throw the ideas in and you have to listen to things that you might not agree with or think they're crazy. And then when you engage with them, you get to something that's better. And that's why Washington put people that were at odds in his cabinet because he knew they come at it completely different angles. But at the end of the day, they could move something that's better for everybody forward. And that's so powerful. What you said is really come around and be with people that aren't like you and don't think like you and don't worry about their labels or where they come from, worry about listening and learning from them.

I fear that the pendulum of political discourse and popular thought, which always swings back and forth, it seems to be heading in the direction now of our children in schools should never hear ideas or things they disagree with. They need to be protected from ideas and things that they disagree with. And I can understand the impulse as a parent. I can understand like, I don't want my child to feel hurt and upset. So I can understand that impulse as a parent. But much like you cannot help a chick hatch out of its egg, or you will kill it as much as you see how much they're struggling. We cannot take on the burden of our school children's intellectual development by just telling them what to think and protecting them from ideas that they disagree with. And we're now

sort of seeing some of the fruits of what happens when we do that. As you were saying, our history and civic understanding scores, they've been heading in a bad direction. They've been trending in the wrong direction. So I would love to hear more about some of the curriculum that you have available. What can a parent or teacher who was like, well, this is a disturbing trend. We need to reverse this. I want to make sure my kids know what's what. I want to make sure my students are getting a firm foundation. Tell me more about some of the curriculum resources you offer. Sure. And when you were talking about protecting our kids, and we all know there are certain topics you're going to say with a first grader that you're absolutely comfortable saying with an eighth grader. So we all get that,

like, we're not talking about that stuff. But one of our teachers said it so well, Miss Jennings from Philadelphia, she said, you know what, the kids are going to have the conversation with or without you. So don't you want to be in the room to help them? And I was like, absolutely, you're right. Let's like kid ourselves. They're going to have these conversations. And as a parent, as you know, I always say like your people, as your people, your teacher, your parent, your aunt, your cousin, like you want to be in that space where they're having that conversation with you. So how do we work together as a full community? Because our kids learn 24 seven, they learn inside-7. They learn inside the classroom.

They learn outside the classroom. How do we engage in those conversations so we all teach them that it is healthy to ask questions, that it is healthy to question sources, and that it is healthy to listen to other perspectives? That's what we want to model. We've been not modeling that behavior as adults for a while now, and it's rubbing off on our kids. And you know what? We're to blame on that. So we need to help and support them in that. So when we think about what's needed in those classrooms, yes, we need strong curriculum. We just launched this September our first ever full curriculum. It's for high school students. It's called Constitution 101. for high school students. It's called Constitution 101. We like to keep the names direct and civil. And it is a half-year course on the Constitution, free. We have an entire teacher program around it.

We bring in the top scholars, multiple sides of all perspectives teaching this. And we're in the process of interviewing the best scholars in the country to get short clips that they can add to it. We have video instruction, we're adding more, and we're working with Khan Academy to get that online. So next year, there'll be a teacher-facing curriculum and a student-facing curriculum to really support the kids' practice with those primary sources and the practice in learning the materials, and then embed it in all of those materials as, okay, let's talk about it. And everything's in there. Everything's in there from the founding period, Shays' Rebellion, to the Kennedy cage, which we all talk about, the praying coach case, or the Dobbs case, all these pieces. We need to be able to do that work with our students, but we also need to make sure that parents and guardians are

aware that we're having these conversations. Because, you know, you want your kids to learn, but it's really nice that you have tools too. So when they come back and they ask you a question, you have the frame of reference of why they're asking that question, what they've been talking about in class, and maybe some ways that you can say, I don't know, let's talk about it as a family. What did you hear today? What else? Let's look that up together. That is one thing, you know, I like to rose colored glasses, everything. It's just who I am. It's one thing the pandemic did for us. There were a lot of parents and grandparents at home, either watching with kids or watching over their shoulder or talking to them in the afternoon. And that created a multi-generational conversation in education

that we haven't had for a while. And that's a good thing. So how do we take that and take away the fear, open up transparency, but really dive into the hard stuff and know that one thing's true, our kids can handle it. They can totally handle it and they that one thing's true. Our kids can handle it. They can totally handle it and they're going to do it. Our goal is to make sure we're at the table, making sure they have really strong sources to learn the material. So we have a whole teacher training program. There are other organizations out there doing this great work with us in the civics field. They're all nonpartisan. They're fantastic. Like Bill of Rights Institute, iCivics, to name a few. I can keep going on for hours and hours, but we all work together because

we know, not to be corny, but it takes a village. And that means all of us, all of you, all the kids working together. I love that. And curriculum like Constitution 101, which is designed for high school students, is frankly a fantastic refresher for parents because I hear from a lot of adults who tell me they're curious, they want to learn, they want to raise kids who know what's what, but they don't feel confident in the knowledge themselves. And this gives parents as well a very accessible way to be able to refresh their own memory about things or maybe learn it for the first time. It's not dumbed down. It's not a curriculum that adults are going to feel like this is for babies. You

know what I mean? This is for people who are able to critically think. And so I want to encourage parents to think about it from that perspective, too, that if you don't feel like you got this education for whatever reason, this is a fantastic opportunity to learn with your children or to educate yourself before educating your children. It doesn't mean you need to complete every single worksheet and, you know, like all of those things, but it can really help pop these topics back into your mind, throw them back into the mix. You don't use it, you lose it. So I love it for that purpose, too.

Again, it's giving everybody who partakes in it that really solid foundation that we need to be able to engage at a higher level with a lot of these very difficult topics. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories,

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Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. We can't shy away from the difficult questions. We can't pretend that it's all patriotic rainbows and sunshine, and it's all the star-spangled banner on a sunny day at a baseball game, and we're about to eat a hot dog, and life is grand. Certainly there are those elements, but I hear from a lot of people, and I bet if I hear it, you're probably hearing it, that constitutional history feels like history for white people. It feels like history for white people because everyone who wasn't white

was cut out of the picture at the time of the Constitution's founding. And as much as we like to exalt the founding era, and there are great ideas that came out of it, our ideas about women and our ideas about race were not the good things that came out of that era, by and large. Certainly, there were individual people, speaking of people like John Adams, things of that nature, that certainly had some stronger ideas than some other people, but nobody is out here being like, wow, we really had it all together in 1787. So what ideas or thoughts can you offer to somebody who feels like this is white people history, has nothing to do with me. In fact, the people who wrote it hated me.

Let's be honest. When you're talking about real constitutional history and you're looking at what the Constitution was, at the same time, you're looking at what it wasn't. And if you're not doing that, you're not actually teaching constitutional history. You're only teaching, like you said, the rainbows and butterflies version of it and what went into one perspective of it. So we did an extremely huge amount of work to ensure that we were telling the whole history and ensuring that we were looking at all the social perspectives at each time when looking at these constitutional changes. So colonial history, then moving to pre-revolutionary

history, then the constitution and moving on. But you have to look at everybody around that and then take those ideas and perspectives over time. And it's really powerful to hear from the people directly themselves. So if you're teaching in the constitution or you're learning about the constitution and you're only hearing perspectives of white male landowners, you're seeing this much of the window, an inch of the window is open to you. When you open that up and you read sources and primary sources from women, from African-American women, from men, from enslaved people, from free people, from women of all different levels of society,

now you're starting to see the whole picture and you're starting to see that whole understanding of who we were. We're never ever going to be able to capture the entire picture because let's be honest, they didn't save people who weren't in power's primary sources. If you were an enslaved person, you were legally probably not allowed to learn to read and write. So how can we capture that? So it needs to be primary sources in music. It needs to be primary sources in newspaper clippings. It needs to be through the crafts as well as the written word. All these pieces help to kind of paint that picture of what was happening at that moment. Professor Jeffries

is a professor we work with all the time. He's out of Ohio State. And he talks about, he just says, open your eyes to the beautiful complexity of the American experience. And I think that's the best and most powerful way to say it. We're complex, and that means it's not all wonderful. It's unbelievably heartbreaking and tragic at times, but there's also constant stories of people in the worst situations showing resistance and resilience over and over again. You know, people like Prince Hall, people like Robert Smalls, people like Francis Harper, so many powerful people.

We have to tell all of those stories and they can't just be the tragic stories either. We have to balance this and see the whole lens to really understand who we are and who we've been as a country and how the law has played a part in these dynamics. So we talk about equality for women, equality for white women, rich white women, African American women, Hispanic women, Native American women. It's different. So we have to look at those laws and how they affect

women over time, but in different ways. And, you know, like this word got kind of beat up for a while, but that's intersectionality. That's when there's multiple points that we need to put together to say, what does this really look like? Because it does look different for this person than that person. And what's the information around it? I love that. That's so good. When you realize as an adult that you've been lied to, that feels very different than when

you were told something difficult from the beginning. That's a very different experience in life, and it's a very different experience when you are learning about history. There is a big difference between hearing something difficult and hearing the truth and being lied to about it and then finding out the truth later. One breeds a lot more resentment than the other one does. And people can deal with difficult things. The idea that our children in school cannot grapple with difficult topics is entirely a new invention. Throughout the entirety of human history, children's lives have been filled with terrible things and trauma. Now, nobody's saying it's wonderful and we should expose them to all kinds of death and illness.

Of course not. But this idea that children cannot learn about something that happened in the past that is not in alignment with the values that we have today because it would make them turn against their own country, I disagree with that idea. I think children can know the truth and they can move forward with the truth. We're armed with the truth and being armed with the truth is what helps them truly understand this country. And as you were saying, if you want to change something, you have to understand it. I think you know where I'm coming from on this, that we that you can't build pride on a lie and that children can know about difficult things and still love their country.

Absolutely. I completely agree. And to be honest, it's those difficult conversations that really connect you with it as well, that you see we're not perfect. And that reminds you, you got to do something. So if something's working well in our country, put guardrails in and shore it up. If something isn't working well, figure out how it works so you know where to step in and where to make it work better. Our country based off of us, it's popular sovereignty. It's powered by we the people. We the people have to know how this system works to be able to make sure it stays healthy and alive. And that means knowing the good and the bad.

We need a strong foundation. And a strong foundation means knowing the whole truth and then building upon that. And we can say, well, where's our weakness and how do we fix that? And how do we shore it up around that? So unbelievably powerful. And the kids, it's interesting. It's more interesting. It's less flat. It's not flat Stanley here. We've got like live in vivid color, energizing and passionate,

but it also shows you these American heroes of the past and what they really struggled against to move us forward. So when you do learn the whole story about Rosa Parks, you're just blown away about how amazing she was and what real courage looks like. Because now you can see it in this person that stands up, tiny little person that stands up against all the odds and says, I'm going to do this and I'm going to change it. And it's for all of us, not just me. So it really makes you just proud of your country

to know people like that are with you in that we the people. I love that. That's so well said. Yeah. I mean, when you think about stories of people from the past, either people you know, or people from history that are really moving and inspirational to you, it is not the people who are like, I grew up rich and I had a perfect life. Those are not the people that you're like, wow, that is really inspirational. I learned a lot. That's not who you relate to and who you learn from, right? Like I grew up rich and had a perfect life. I actually kind of feel resentment towards you. You know what I mean? It's the people who actually lived through incredible adversity that are far more inspirational, that we can learn far more

from than the people who had these perfect flat Stanley lives. And so often what we're doing in history is we're compressing people, like to your point, we're compressing Rosa Parks and people like her and many thousands of people like her into this flat caricature version that is completely unrelatable. Like I don't relate that much to a lady who's tired on a bus. Do you know what I mean? But when you really understand who she is, you can admire her courage. You can admire the years of training that it took, the dedication that it took to get to that moment. And that's a far richer experience than like, I grew up rich and had a perfect life.

I know. And I think that's so important too, because it works with people too. Like you said, we compress them into one idea. And so like that was so hard for people. And you see it when you're talking about people in history, you heard the one version of like, say somebody like Jefferson, and then you hear the other side of Jefferson and you're like now at odds, do I like them? Do I not like them? Do I like them? Do I not like them? Or, you know, you hear great things about Washington and then horrible things about Washington. And you then become this tension inside yourself. And you have to learn to process through what are these major moments in American history, and you could admire a person and then

at the same time, completely dislike them and hate them for some of their behavior as well. And so we can't do it to people's stories. We can't do it to the American story. And we have to remember in this humanity comes greats and horrors, and it can be in the same person, absolutely in the same person. But what can we learn from them, even if we don't believe that they're a good person or the right person to admire? It's really about moving that forward Because you do, you get this like hero complex or villain complex in your head. And then you walk away from learning about that person.

And to understand somebody like Jefferson, he's a great example because there's no question that his contribution to the United States is very significant. There's no question that he made significant contributions. And there's also no question that he did some horrible things. And both things can be true at the same time. And so often we ask ourselves and we ask our school children to choose which one it is.

Either they made a contribution and thus ignore the slave stuff, ignore impregnating your wife's half-sister, ignore it because he wrote this really great document. We ask children to put people in one box or the other when in reality, most of us are both. Now, of course, most of us are not enslaving and raping people. And it's fair to examine people from history and admit what their contributions are and acknowledge what their flaws were. That is, in my mind, what we should be doing and we're not. And right there, we need practice in doing that because we as humans, our neurological makeup, like to say, put it in box A and box B.

It's either black, it's white. And in all reality, most of the world is gray. So we have to practice and train our brains to do that too. And so that's why when we talk about what do we need, what's this like moonshot moment in education, we need more civics. We need more dialogues. We need more conversations and we need more thoughtful looking at our whole history so we can grapple with the complexities and we can hold onto them

and see both sides, see the brilliance and the flaws. I love the way you said that, the contributions and the horrible flaws. It's so powerfully important, but that takes practice. It's not innate. It's not like a reflex. It isn't. We have to resist our own ways of thinking. Yeah, totally. And that's why we have the option to engage our prefrontal cortex and be like, I'm going to use my big mammalian brain and say, I'm choosing to not engage in the way that my brain's default settings. I'm not going to use the default settings in this scenario not going to use the default settings in this scenario because you're absolutely right, Carrie, that those are our default settings

because our brain wants to make things quick and easy. Are you a predator? Are you going to kill me? I'm not going to sit here and analyze every wolf. I'm not going to be like, is that wolf a nice wolf or a mean wolf? I'm just going to be like, it's a wolf. It's scary. We're leaving. Your brain wants to keep you safe. And so it has developed these mechanisms of like, yes, no, bad, good, black, white. That's actually not a helpful lens for learning about history. I have to know who are some of your favorite attendees to the constitutional convention? Who are you like, man, I just love what that person had to say. Oh, well, okay. So that's a super easy one. So I am like unhealthy obsessed with Gouverneur Morris like just straight up thank you thank you yes so many stories nobody knows about him and he's such a character yes okay continue there

was a book so we have lots of volunteers and shout out to our volunteers at the Constitution Center because they're fantastic and they're also like wonderful too because they come and they bring you books and they're like hey Curry we know you love gubernator mars here's a book on him and there was a series of forgotten founders which i would wish that more people wrote these books around them so gubernator mars by far i mean the stories are unbelievable they just blow me away i like dickinson as well i feel like dickinson does not get enough cred for like what he did at that convention and how after during ratification really pulled the country back together again. We always hear about Ben Franklin. I'm from Philadelphia. I love Ben Franklin. I know he's from Boston, but we kind of own, we took him over. He's ours. We hear about George Washington on Hamilton now, but all those pieces like are so unbelievably powerful. And I have to say, like, I don't think Mason gets enough credit. I know he wasn't the most interesting speaker at the convention. And sometimes they were like,

oh gosh, he's talking again, but he's really, really fascinating. So there are my three I love. I'm not a big fan of Charles Pinckney. If we're talking about people that don't, you should still be interested and you should still learn from, but he might make you annoyed and angry, then read some more about the Pinckneys. Gouverneur Morris, there's literally no end. If you invented him as a movie character,

the director would be like, this is not remotely believable, okay? Nobody is like peg leg minister to France, marries a woman who was accused of murdering her own child. I mean, like speaks, whatever, 173 times at the constitutional convention, but he loves to dance. Like what is like dancing at a peg leg? I don't, why is that the fact? Dies from a whale bone? Dies from impaling himself in the private parts with a whale bone?

It's too much. That's too much. It's a bridge too far. And the stories, like the stories about him and his leg in France, like the carriage being attacked by revolutionaries and he throws out his peg leg and knocks it and says, I lost this in the American revolution.

And they cheer him on. And like, it is crazy, like crazy. There's two people that I'm like, we need like a Netflix series on Google Mars and Robert Smalls. I don't know if you know about Robert Smalls. Oh, totally. He's another one that I'm like,

are you, every time I read it, I'm like, no, no. Cause like the story is like steals a steamship, travels, saves other people, then goes back and fights against the South, like crazy, you know, frees himself as an enslaved man and then becomes a United States house of representative, like unbelievable. Like talk about these American heroes that we don't hear about. And like, I mean, I can keep going. There's like the women that we can talk about as well. Ida B. Wells, I'm just going to throw out Ida B. Wells as my third like mind blown about Ida B. Wells. She's totally incredible. And she's a great example of how what you're mentioning earlier that like suffrage for white women did not mean the same thing as suffrage for Black women

at the time. And she's the perfect example of that where they're like, yeah, come march in our suffrage parade, but get at, get to the back. And she's like, I'm not doing that. I'm not getting to the back. I'm going to walk in the front where I belong. And again, we could keep talking all day, but I totally agree with you. I'm going to call my agent. I'm going to pitch him a story about Gouverneur Morris. And they're going to be like, that's BS. Nobody believes that story, Sharon. I will. I will. I'll be like your number one fan on it. Like the peg leg is too much. It's too much. He dances on it and he throws it out. The whale bone. The whale bone is too much. I don't think you can put that on Netflix.

I don't think. I don't think. I know. We'd have to figure out a way around that one. Just imply. Okay. Where can people get all these resources? Where can they get the curriculum?

Where can they find you on the web? I know people are going to listen to this and be like, I need what they are offering. So where can they find it? You can check out constitutioncenter.org. Our website, all of our curriculum and all of our classes are free. We try to do as much as possible for free. Even if you want to come to the museum, almost all schools have free admission to the museum. So come check us out. We're the third most visited museum website in the United States because we have this amazing interactive constitution. You can also check out, look up any part of the constitution and get multiple perspectives. You can also follow us

on Twitter and Instagram at constitutionctr, a great way to kind of keep up on the news, Facebook as well, all the socials, really great ways to check it out. And when you go in, there is material for everybody. So there's, if you're like a super nerd, like I am on the constitution, check out the podcast of the town halls. If you want to teach it to other kids or yourself, check out the education materials, come to the museum. We have tons of free holidays too.

So lots of layers, lots of great ways to engage. And if you ever need anything, it's education at constitutioncenter.org is my team. We're educators. We love to take care of people. So you just let us know and we'll take care of you. Thanks for being here. This is fantastic. Thank you so much. This was so much fun. If you want to find out more about the work of the Constitution Center, you need to go to their fantastic website, constitutioncenter.org. Of course, they have a fantastic museum in Philadelphia.

But if you can't get there in person, you will love constitutioncenter.org. And that's where you can find their free high school curriculum, Constitution 101. It's also great for adults. And they're working on Constitution 101 for middle schoolers. So stay tuned for that. Thanks for being here today. This show is researched and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. Our executive producer is Heather Jackson. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform? That helps us so much. And we always love to see your shares and tags on social media. We'll see you again soon.