Here's Where It Gets Interesting - The Virtues Behind the American Constitution with Jeffrey Rosen

Episode Date: May 19, 2025

We’ve heard it before: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But what did the Founders mean by “the pursuit of happiness,” and how do virtue and moral philosophy shape our understanding of this unalienable right? Sharon is joined by Jeffrey Rosen, President and CEO of the National Constitution Center, to explore these questions, as well as to dive deeper into the history and meaning of the pursuit of life-long virtue. Learn how six of the Framers and Founders – flaws and all – embody different virtues, and consider the importance of electing leaders who will be virtuous and uphold the principles of Democracy. Credits: Host and Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Supervising Producer: Melanie Buck Parks Audio Producer: Craig Thompson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Samsung Vision AI televisions transform screens into intelligent solutions. From reviving old memories with AI upscaling to seamless hands-free control with universal gestures, the next vision in television is here. Learn more about Samsung Vision AI televisions at Samsung.com. Hey friends, welcome. Delighted that you're with me today. My guest is the director of the National Constitution Center, Jeffrey Rosen. And what an interesting conversation about what the founders meant, why it even matters. Are we supposed to care what some dudes 250 years ago thought?

Jeffrey Rosenwood, argue yes, and maybe not for the reason you think. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I'm always excited to chat with fellow Constitution nerds, So it's a delight to have you here and congrats on your book. Thank you so much. I would love to hear more about how you conceptualized the pursuit of happiness and what was it about these topics related to virtue that you felt like this is a topic for today, the world needs this message now. You could have written about quite a few things, Jeff.

Why this and why now? Jeff Sarris Well, this was a labor of love and the topic came to me unexpectedly. It was during COVID and there was just a synchronicity I noticed that set me down this path of trying to understand what the founders meant when they talked about the pursuit of happiness. It started with Ben Franklin's 13 virtues. I knew from previous reading that when he was in his 20s, he set out to achieve moral perfection. And he came up with this system of self-improvement where he had a list of 13 virtues and would make X marks every night next

to the virtues where he fell short. And he found that this was very depressing and gave it up, but he's a better person for having tried. So I knew about this system because I tried it with a friend of mine a couple of years ago, a rabbi of ours recommended basically a Hebrew version of the Franklin 13 virtues. It's called the Musar system and it's still used today. And we tried it and like Franklin, we found it very depressing and we gave it up. But the motto that Franklin chose for the project came from a book by Cicero that I'd never heard of before called the Tusculent Disputations. And it basically said, without virtue, happiness cannot be. OK, so I knew about that vaguely. But right before COVID, I noticed

that Thomas Jefferson had a similar love for this book from Cicero. When people would write to him when he was old and ask, what's the secret of happiness, he would send this quotation from Cicero's Tusculine Disputations that essentially said, without virtue, happiness cannot be. He who is exuberant or too despondent will never be happy,

but the tranquil man, he is the happy man of whom we are in quest. He is the wise man. So I thought, okay, I've got to read this Cicero book because it was so important to Franklin and Jefferson. But what else to read? Then I came across Thomas Jefferson's reading list.

And when he was old, he'd have this reading list that he would give to friends or their kids who were going to law school. And it had books from politics and literature. And there was a section that he sometimes called religion and sometimes ethics that caught my eye. It was essentially a collection of moral philosophy. And it began with Cicero's Tusculent Disputations. And then it included books by other stoic philosophers like Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius, as well as some Enlightenment philosophers.

So during COVID, I set out to read the 10 books on Jefferson's reading list involving moral philosophy, and then others that he thought were crucial and The first thing that struck me is that I'd never read any of these books before I've had a wonderful liberal arts education I majored in history and literature and politics at great universities and great law schools But I never read the great books of moral philosophy that were considered key to being an educated person at the time of the founding.

And it turns out for a lot longer than that. So I read the books and what I learned came as a revelation for not only Jefferson and Franklin, but for all the founders, happiness meant not feeling good, but being good, not pursuing pleasure, but pursuing virtue. And in particular, they had a specific understanding of what it meant to be virtuous. And it meant using your powers of reason to moderate your unreasonable passions or emotions so that you could achieve the calm, tranquility, and self-possession, self-mastery that was key to happiness. The definition has its roots in Greek moral philosophy. Going back to Pythagoras, actually, it was made famous by Aristotle, who famously defined

happiness as an activity of the soul in conformity with virtue or excellence. And although it's hard to translate today, it has that sense of self mastery, self improvement, improving your character. So that was just a remarkably fulfilling year essentially that I spent reading these wonderful books. And then I set out to figure out

how did the founders apply it in their lives? Did they live up to these ideals or not? What did it mean to them? Changed my understanding of founders and the book that resulted is called The Pursuit of Happiness. Let's be real, therapy can be life changing. But actually getting therapy,

that's where things get tricky. Finding the right person, dealing with insurance, juggling schedules, it's a lot. And that's why I think Rula is such a game changer. Rula makes it easy to get high quality mental health care from a licensed professional without jumping through hoops. They take most major insurance plans and the average copay is only $15. That's right, 15 bucks. And they don't just connect you and disappear. Rula stays with you for the whole journey, checking in on your progress, helping you adjust when

needed and making sure you're working with someone who gets you. Every therapist in their network is carefully vetted, and there are over 10,000 providers nationwide, including psychiatrists, if you need help with medication too. Getting started is quick and straightforward. Answer a few questions about what matters to you, and RULA will match you with licensed in-network providers. You could have your first appointment as soon as tomorrow. Thousands have already trusted RULA to support them on their journey toward improved mental health and overall well-being.

Head on over to rula.com slash interesting to get started today. After you sign up, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Go to rula.com slash interesting and take the first step toward better mental health today. You deserve quality care from someone who cares. I'm Emma Greed and I've spent the last 20 years building, running and investing in some incredible businesses. I've co-founded a multi-billion dollar unicorn and had my hand in several other companies

that have generated hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars. The more success I've had, the more people started coming to me with questions. How do you start a business? How do you raise money? How do I bounce back from failure? So it got me thinking,

why not just ask the people I aspire to the most? How did they actually do what they do? I'm so incredibly lucky to know some of the smartest minds out there. And now I'm bringing their insights along with mine unfiltered directly to you. On my new podcast, Aspire with Emma Greed, I'll dive into the big questions everyone wants to know about success in business and in life. Through weekly conversations, you'll get the tangible tools, the real no BS stories and undeniable little hacks that actually help you level up. Listen to and follow Aspire with Emma Greed, an Odyssey podcast available now wherever you get your podcasts. Podcasts are great because they help us make the

most out of our routine. We learn about the fall of the Ottoman Empire while we drive, keep up with news while we take the dog for a walk. Or turn folding laundry into a comedy show. Make the most out of your time with the PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard. A credit card that can get you unlimited free grocery delivery and the most PC optimum points on everyday purchases. The PC Insider's World Elite MasterCard. The card for living unlimited.

Conditions apply to all benefits. Visit PCFinancial.ca for details. I want to get more into the virtues that you studied and you sort of pair up each of these virtues with people who embodied that. For example, you talk about sincerity and then you bring in people like Phyllis Wheatley, or you talk about moderation and you bring in people like James Madison and Alexander Hamilton. But one of the things I'm curious about before we get there is what is it about Thomas Jefferson's reading list that was so intriguing to you?

I know a lot of people listening to this will be like, yeah, I'm not particularly interested in what Thomas Jefferson has to say given that he impregnated a woman he enslaved. Given his position in the arc of the moral universe as a long time enslaver, why should I care about what Thomas Jefferson has to say about virtue? So I wonder if you could speak to people who are listening to this now who are like, yeah, I don't really care what Thomas Jefferson has to say about virtue. Absolutely. A very important question. Well, the first thing is to say that this isn't

just Thomas Jefferson's reading list. These are the same books that every single member of the founding generation, men and women, read and then also inspired future generations, including people like Frederick Douglass, and Louis Brandeis, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg. These are just the core curriculum of moral philosophy that all people basically read until the mid 20th century. So that's why it's so important to read this.

But as for Jefferson in particular, what I learned again came as a revelation. He recognized that slavery is immoral, and in particular, inconsistent with the idea of being a virtuous person. He said repeatedly that slavery could not be reconciled with the natural rights articulated in the Declaration of Independence. But, and this is the significant thing,

he also recognized his own hypocrisy. Patrick Henry put it best, another enslaver, who Jefferson followed closely. Henry said, is it not amazing that I myself, who believe that slavery violates natural rights, are enslaved? I will not justify it. I will not attempt to do so.

It is simple avarice or greed I cannot do with the inconvenience of living without the system of enslavement." And they were very candid about recognizing this hypocrisy and that idea of avarice or greed, which was indeed their explanation. They thought it was immoral, they felt that it was wrong, but they just couldn't be bothered to give up the lifestyle. It's part of classical moral philosophy. The greatest vices for the ancients, which was the moral system that they grew up reading, were ambition and avarice.

And they saw that slavery couldn't be reconciled with that system. So it doesn't in any way excuse Jefferson's hypocrisy. In fact, in some ways, it makes it even more stark how repeatedly throughout his life, he kept saying, yes, we've got to end slavery, but at some point in the distant future, it was never soon enough. And then of course, he dies having only freed two enslaved people during his lifestyle who were relatives of his own children. And then he freed two of his own children on his death. The rest of his slave population had to be sold to pay his crushing debts,

which was the whole reason he hadn't freed his enslaved population to begin with, and he was brought down by his own avarice. It's not a pretty tale at all, but it is one that took place within this moral framework of happiness, that just helps us understand all of the framers in a different light. I have a chapter on Phyllis Wheatley, who you mentioned.

And it's so striking that the first formerly enslaved Black woman poet in America, Phyllis Wheatley, also read the same books of moral philosophy that were on Jefferson's reading list and on everyone's reading list. And she wrote poems of virtue to George Washington and others, talking about her own efforts to basically achieve this excellent self-control, self-mastery, character

improvement, and to be a good person. And the same moral philosophy inspired her and many other Black people, enslaved and free, to fight for freedom. So it's very, very striking how central this whole framework was for generations of people throughout American history. And that's why it's so relevant to read. For somebody who is new to learning about this topic of moral philosophy, what even is it?

Can you distill it down to its essence? I heard you say earlier that the founders believed that there was no happiness without virtue. I'm wondering if you can help us define some of these terms. What even is moral philosophy? What do they mean when they say virtue? Are these things like cleanliness next to godliness? So you know, like whatever put off for tomorrow, we can do today. You know, like is that what we're talking about or is it something else entirely? It's both and. It's easy to sort of roll your eyes when you think about platitudes like

the ones you mentioned. And Ben Franklin did try to reduce the virtues to these aphorisms so that people could practice them. Never put off tomorrow what you want to do today as one for industry, which was such a central idea. Don't waste time. Tree every moment as if it were your last, which they got from Seneca and elsewhere. But today we'd use phrases like emotional intelligence or being your best self, or some of the phrases we'd use. But I find this antithesis that they kept returning to between reason and passion and emotion helpful. They thought we should use our reason

to moderate our emotions, not at all that we should lack emotion, but there's just that we should have productive ones. You read all these stories of how the founders struggled to apply these virtues and they were just like us. They found it depressing to make X marks next to their shortcomings and they by no means were saints in any way. But there's one virtue that they did embody toward the end of their lives, and that tended to be industry. And it's so inspiring to me to see Adams and Jefferson at

the end of their lives, exchanging letters about the latest book they've just tracked down from England or Adams learning that Pythagoras traveled among the Hindu masters. And there's a new translation of the Bhagavad Gita. They're talking about comparative religion, and they trace this whole philosophy back to the Eastern as well as the Western traditions. They're constantly learning and growing and trying to be better and not to waste time. So whenever I find myself, which I do many times a day,

tempted to browse or tweet or waste time on the internet, I think, just get back to work and basically try to read deeply, actually reading books rather than browsing, writing productively and trying to use the time as well as I can is my takeaway from this remarkably inspiring moral philosophy. I keep hearing listeners' voices in my head as I'm listening to you talk, and I know one of the concepts or one of the things that people would say

if they had a chance to ask this question is, isn't that like a super privileged take? Isn't it a super privileged take to think to ourselves, like, I'm gonna be industrious today, I'm gonna be my highest self. When for centuries, people had no option to pursue being their highest self. Still today, the systems in place of things like systemic poverty and racism, et cetera, make it so that the pursuit of virtue is something that only people who are among this privileged class can even spend time ruminating on.

This idea that some people can spend their day thinking about moral philosophy. Does this apply only to the privileged? Well, Frederick Douglass didn't think it was a privileged take. He thought that it was his escape from the system of enslavement. What upset him most about that system was when his master ordered that he stop being taught how to read.

His mistress, Mrs. Auld, had been teaching him to read, suddenly his wicked master says he can't read. And he felt like he'd been completely deprived of the way out of slavery, because reading and learning was the way out. And he continued to teach himself to read. He paid boys on the streets of Baltimore

to let him learn to continue how to read. And then this book, The Columbian Orator, is the most precious possession he owned. Changed his life. He read and imagined what it would be like to give speeches like the ones denouncing Irish injustice in England and found other examples of people fighting for liberty. And that inspired him to fight against slavery

as the most inspiring voice of his time, both when he was enslaved and when he was later freed, and then after the Civil War, he gave speeches about how the urgent importance of self-reliance and of all of us using whatever resources we have to use our talents to the best of our abilities so that we can fight for freedom and justice. And that's so important about this system. It is not at all a system of just reading for its own sake or for the aesthetic pleasure of it. And it's not a philosophy of withdrawal or apathy.

Justice is one of the urgent virtues, the obligation, the duty that we have to fight for justice and to oppose injustice. It is one of those four classical virtues along with prudence and temperance. So all of the founders we talked about, including Justice Ginsburg, Justice Brandeis, and the many people both privileged and unprivileged,

starting with Phyllis Wheatley, she would have been appalled by the suggestion that learning how to read and studying the classics was a form of privilege. She felt that it was a classical education that her master and his wife gave her. They let her study the classics with their own kids was the great gift that made freedom possible for her.

For so much of American history, education was the way out and reading was the way out. And it is so important that we remember this message today. LESLIE KENDRICK Okay. I want to get into what some of the virtues even are, because it's one thing to be like, yes, I'm a virtuous person, but it's another to actually talk or speak in the language of the founders, the language of these philosophers, so that we're all sort of on the same page. You have your book organized into a few different chapters where, again, you're profiling virtue and then somebody who perhaps illustrates or embodies that virtue. There are things like temperance, humility, industry, frugality, sincerity, moderation, you know, things along

these lines, justice, as you mentioned. And one of the things that really struck me was tranquility is a virtue. And you use John Quincy Adams as an illustration of tranquility. In this book, he's one of my favorites because for me, he embodies all the virtues probably more perfectly than all the others. First, he's the most learned in the classics. He's the Boylston professor of history at Harvard, and he gives these lectures on the virtues that Adam sends to Jefferson. But the really powerful part of his story was his own evolution.

Of course, he's, first of all, unbelievably accomplished as a kid, and he's turned down a Supreme Court appointment, and he's the ambassador to Russia, but he writes in his diary, I'm wasting my life. I haven't achieved anything. I'm already 25, and I haven't done anything. So he's incredibly hard on himself because his parents are constantly telling him use your reason to master your Passions, you know be a better person. It's it's a tremendous amount of pressure that he's put on himself He puts the same amount of pressure on his kids and he's constantly telling his own kids to read the classics and read the Bible

He's he's a very devout Christian as well and the pressure is so great that his oldest son, George Washington Adams, can't take it. He becomes an alcoholic and he commits suicide, which just devastates Adams and his wife and is just a sign of how high the pressure in this moral universe is. But he's president for a term. He loses reelection to Andrew Jackson.

He feels like he's been a great failure. But then he finds the great crusade of the second part of his life and that's the crusade against slavery. He becomes the greatest abolitionist in Congress where he returns as the only ex-president to serve in Congress. Of his time, he fights against the gag rule which

forbids abolitionist petitions on the floor of the house and then he's old and he gives this speech denouncing slavery and the Mexican war and then collapses on the floor of the house. And as he's dying, he murmurs, I am composed, is almost certainly what he murmured. And it's a quotation from Cicero about the importance of self-composure and mastering your passion so that you can

achieve calm tranquility and justice. It's just a perfectly composed ending to someone who was so self-conscious about living this life of classical virtue, and that's why I love his story so much. You said that undertaking this study and reading all of these works of classical moral philosophy helped you understand the framers and the founders better and differently. As a man who has spent most of his life studying topics related to America's founding era, study the Constitution. You have a pretty sizable background knowledge, far greater than the average American. And so for you

to feel like, wow, this has really changed how I understand this topic, is probably really saying something. So I'm wondering if you can give us a few examples of what you mean. Well, I was just so surprised by how constantly they talked about their own anxieties and insecurities and feelings like they were totally wasting their lives. It was a very modern understanding because it's something I could relate to them because I do the same thing, and many of my friends do, and they always felt like they weren't doing enough. Can you imagine John Adams and Thomas Jefferson in their 80s writing to each other and wondering if they wasted their lives? I mean, for us, they are these either demagogues or hypocrites, but they're they're these very large figures. But they were just talking about their anxieties and saying, you know, I'm going to try to get up earlier or keep my schedule or write more letters, but I feel

like I've just got to do a better job. I felt like it was a window into their psychology that really, and they were very human that way in the sense that they constantly felt like they were messing up, being hypocritical, not doing enough, but they always wanted to do better. And that this was what motivated them to achieve all that they did. For me, anyway, it was a model of how to use my time as well as I could.

I candidly can't believe that I wrote the book. I never expected to both spend a year reading all this moral philosophy that I'd never read before and then write a book about it in a year, but it was probably just thinking of the founder's schedule, getting up before sunrise. As I mentioned in the book, I developed this unusual practice

of writing a sonnet in the morning to kind of sum up the daily wisdom when I spent the year reading the moral philosophy, which is a very unusual practice until I turned out the founders did the same thing and Phyllis Wheatley and Hamilton are all writing sonnets of virtue and John Quotzi-Adam writes them in the morning. And then you kind of realize you've got these capacities you didn't know you had, which is to write sonnets, which I'd never done before and so forth. So it was very personally revealing for me.

And then there's this whole other dimension, which is it helped me understand their constitutional and political philosophy in a new light. And I re-read the Federalist Papers in New Rise, and it's a manual of public happiness. Hamilton and Madison used that phrase, public happiness, a lot. And I came to understand that when they talked about

a balanced constitution achieving harmony and avoiding factions which they defined as any group of majority or a minority animated by passion rather than reason, they're trying to avoid in the constitution of the state the same turbulence that we want to avoid in our own minds. That's why that connection.

The basic idea is that to save the republic, we've got to be good citizens, we've got to be good people. Yes, there'll be demagogues who will threaten the republic as there were in the time of the founding, like Aaron Burr or Shea's rebellion of people trying to engage in insurrection against the government because they didn't

want to obey the law. For the founders, the solution is we've got to achieve calm tranquility, we've got to be reasonable, we have to choose representatives and presidents who will themselves be virtuous and will save the Republican protect liberty rather than exalting their own ego-based selfish desires above the public interests. the Republican protect liberty rather than exalting their own ego-based selfish desires above the public interests. It sounds like you were surprised to learn about their personal anxieties that here we are,

hundreds of years later being like, well, what did Thomas Jefferson think? What would George Washington have said? You know, like we're still puzzling over their words. We're still quoting them. We're still writing books about them. We're still writing biographies and musicals and you know, all these things about these people. When they're at their own house being like, I am 80 years old and I don't know if it was good enough and I don't know if I'm smart enough or did enough or tried hard enough. I just don't know.

It's almost like today we would call imposter syndrome, where they're like, I don't know man. I don't know if it was good enough. It's out of my hands. I did what I could. And it just seems like such a struggle that is in many ways very relatable. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. I love that phrase imposter syndrome. That's exactly what they experienced all the time. And when you think John Quincy Adams has imposter syndrome,

suddenly you feel a little better about, I feel a little better about my own. That's how high the standard is. And nothing's good enough. And it's not a kind of council of despair designed to make you feel like you're not good enough. It's something inspiring and uplifting. There was plenty of forgiveness about human frailty.

They're not moralistic Puritans. John Adams, of course, is raised in the Puritan tradition, but he and Franklin reject the really harsh predestination of the 17th century that says, you've got to work as hard as possible, but even if you work really hard, you still might be predestined to go to hell. So it's all in the hands of God. It wasn't at all a philosophy of despair like that. Life is tough. Stuff's going to get thrown at you all the time.

There's a lot we can't control. The only thing we can control is our own actions and emotions. Let's use the time we've got as well as we can and hope that our kids will do better. I would love to know, based on your learning, your many years of learning and your research in this book, in what ways do you think the founders would be surprised by today? If they could be dropped into 2024 and read the newspaper, watch this revelation called television, access the entirety of

human knowledge in a small computer they hold in their hand. What would they be perhaps delighted by? What would they be shocked by? What would they be aghast at? Another great question. So let's start with the aghast and shocked. And you mentioned technology and television and the internet. Of course, Facebook and social media are indeed James Madison's nightmare.

His whole system is based on the cool voice of reason, slowly spreading across the land and promoting deliberation and He has great faith in a new media technology the broadside newspaper and he thinks that enlightened journalists and public officials like himself who he calls the literati will write these long essays like the Federalist papers and people will read them in the newspapers and they'll Gravely discuss them with their representatives in coffee houses. And the representatives will go back to Washington, and cool reason will prevail.

Not the world of X and Instagram, obviously. And a world where passion travels farther and faster than reason and enraged to engage is the business model is the opposite of the Federalist Papers. And that's a real problem for the framers vision. On the other hand, what would they be excited by? You mentioned, I think the thing that would most excite them, all the wisdom of the world,

all the books of the world are basically online and often free. It's just extraordinary. It blows my mind. When I was a kid, I went with my mom to the Library of Congress, as I mentioned in the book, and I was just filled with wonder in that beautiful Jefferson building, I think the most beautiful building in DC, at the thought that all the books in the world were in this one place. Well, now they're just on our phones. I wrote this book at home, often sitting on my couch, and I could just read either free copies of all the books of the world

or the actual books that the founders read with their own margin notes. Like John Adams' copy of Joseph Priestley on the Bhagavad Gita, it just blows my mind. And all we need to do is take the time to read. What do you think they would say about our current state of government? What would they say about our democracy as it exists in this moment? Would they find this product of their

creation, this fruit of their imagination? Would they be delighted at what it has become? Would they be dismayed at how far afield we have gone? What's your understanding of that? The founders are centrally concerned about demagogues. For somebody who doesn't know what that term means, can you help us understand what that means? Yes, a great question. And a demagogue is a figure who whips up populist passions in order to serve his own interests rather than the law and the constitution. So Caesar is a demagogue. He flatters the Roman people and they give up their liberty in exchange for bread and circuses and then he installs himself as dictator for life So a Hamilton says my great fear is this a Caesar who's gonna come and flatter the people and

Reap the whirlwind and his solution is a president for life Because so the president won't have an incentive to call off elections. Jefferson has the opposite fear. He's afraid of a demagogue who will whip up populist passions, will lose an election by a few votes, will cry foul. These are Jefferson's words. Will enlist the states who voted for him to overturn the election, and then will install himself as a dictator for life. And Jefferson's solution is a one-year term

limit for the president so that he can't run again and subvert an election. Obviously, our current concerns are ones that they thought of very specifically, and they're not sure whether or not the system will work. And in fact, most of them are pretty pessimistic at the end of their lives. And Jefferson and Washington and Adams and Hamilton fear that the people won't have enough virtue to resist

demagogues and the demagogues won't be constrained by the separation of powers and that the system is going to collapse. Only Madison at the end of his life is a little more optimistic because he expects less of the system and he is hopeful although not at all competent, that reason will eventually prevail. So these are very challenging times for the United States, although not at all competent, that reason will eventually prevail.

These are very challenging times for the United States and the world. I can say on a non-partisan basis, which is the motto of the National Constitution Center, that the founders would be gravely concerned by our current dilemma and situation and would be not at all convinced that the system will survive. Are you optimistic about the system? Are you optimistic about our democracy? Do you feel like

I'm watching a speeding train about to jump the tracks? How do you feel about it, Jeff? I am not... I can't be optimistic that we're going to easily escape from our current vexations, elections, and history can turn on a few votes and it is possible that we are going to be in a situation that we haven going to be in a situation that we haven't faced before in American history of a demagogic president who would really challenge the system at its core. It might turn out differently,

and that's up to the people. And I am, regardless of how the election turns out and regardless of whether or not the fears of demagogues materialize I am optimistic about the capacity that each each of us has to Be inspired to do better to read to learn to grow to pursue happiness as the founders Imagined I am heartened by the fact that all of this marvelous

information and wisdom is free and online. I am hopeful that as people learn about it through great shows like yours, through education efforts like the National Constitution Center, they'll be inspired to educate themselves, to learn about history, to read the primary sources, to tell others to spread the light, and that the Republic of Reason, we can kindle all of it in our own minds every day. And hopefully, over time, it will prevail at the government level as well. Spring is here, and you can now get almost anything

you need delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? You can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. Sunshine? No. Some wine? Yes.

Get almost almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. See app for details. You know, one of the resources that I as a class, many years as a classroom teacher, now as a government teacher of, you know, a larger audience than I had in my individual classrooms, I have many times used the resources of the National Constitution Center. I wonder if you can just give us a little teeny overview of if we were to go to the

website, what might we find there that could help us in our quest to understand exactly what the Constitution says or what it actually means What kind of resources do you offer? And by the way, the resources are free 99 zero dollars The entirety of human knowledge about the Constitution is for free at your fingertips So give us a little bit of an overview of the website Thank you so much for the opportunity to plug this amazing resource to all your wonderful listeners.

So it's called the Interactive Constitution. It's at constitutioncenter.org. As you said, it's free. It's gotten about 80 million hits since we launched in 2015. It brings together the greatest liberal and conservative thinkers in America to write and read and debate every clause of the Constitution. So you can click on any of the 80 clauses and find scholars nominated by the Federalist Society and the American Constitution Society with a thousand

words about what they agree the provision means and then separate statements about what they disagree about. So just as Amy Coney Barrett and Neil Katyal on the habeas corpus clause, exploring areas of agreement and disagreement, multiply that by 80, it just blows your mind what an incredible feast of learning is there. But that's not all. I always feel like against you and myself when I talk about things like this.

That's right, that's right. We're gonna throw in something else for free. But there's more. So I host a weekly podcast called We the People where I bring together liberal and conservative scholars to debate the issues of the week. Just this morning, we recorded a phenomenal episode on the Colorado Section 3 disqualification case with Gerard Magliocca and Josh Blackmon, two leading liberal and conservative experts on opposite sides.

Just amazing amount of learning to be done there. Then there is a wonderful new Constitution 101 course that I love everyone to check out. It's 15 weeks or 15 videos on the core aspects of the Constitution, separation of powers, the amendments, the major branches, the principles of the American idea. And each module includes a free video,

and then a primary source series of documents from our new founders library selected by liberal and conservative historians that can anchor your discussion, and you can read it on your own if you're an adult learner, or there's special material for teachers who want to take it into their classrooms, and it's just a phenomenal way of learning about the Constitution.

And then we have this great new partnership with Khan Academy. And we're going to launch Constitution 101 in the spring as a Khan Academy course. So it'll be even easier to use in the classroom for high school learners. We'll take it on to middle school kids, and then bring it out on all other media platforms. And then finally, the last big content I want to plug are our town hall programs where we

have videos and live events that have these kind of multi-partisan conversations about American history and contemporary events. You ask if I'm optimistic or not, I don't know what's going to happen in American politics, but when I have the incredible privilege every day, every week of moderating these thoughtful, civil, deep, illuminating conversations among people of different perspectives, and I am optimistic based on that, that if you mindfully bring together people who disagree for thoughtful dialogue, a lot of light will result. I totally feel that. And I think the framers and the founders would approve of the National

Constitution Center. So pat on the back, tip of the hat. They would be like, all this for free? Look at what you, I mean, just the ability to read these essays, these articles that you've mentioned from leading thinkers on sort of both sides of the aisle. Even if you finish the article and you're like, I disagree with everything they just said, you are still better for having learned it. And you may incorporate aspects of that line of thought and be able to apply it to something different down the road. So I really love reading things, even if I don't necessarily at the outset think

I'm going to agree. I feel like I'm better for having learned it. Beautifully put. You sound just like Ben Franklin. He felt he did not achieve moral perfection, but he was better for having tried. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed reading The Pursuit of Happiness. I totally agree with you that this is a content that is often left out of political science curriculums and it is just very illuminating, very enlightening to think about not just ourselves but our government and our country through this sort of framework. So I encourage everybody to pick up The Pursuit of Happiness, how classical writers on virtue inspired the lives of the founders and defined America.

Thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. You can buy Jeff Rosen's book, The Pursuit of Happiness, wherever you buy your books. I always like to get in a plug for bookshop.org so you can support independent bookstores, pick up a copy today. Thank you so much for listening to Here's Where It Gets Interesting. If you enjoyed today's episode, independent bookstores, pick up a copy today.