Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Vermont’s Spitting Lyon with Chrissy Lawler

Episode Date: February 18, 2022

In this episode, Chrissy Lawler of The Peaceful Sleeper, joins Sharon to hear the story of Matthew Lyon, one of Vermont’s most eclectic historical figures. Lyon, a “redemptioner” from Dublin, made a name for himself as a fierce Democratic-Republican when he got into not one–but two–scuffles with a congress member of the opposing party… during an active House session. His story gets more bizarre from there, as he became the only person to be elected to Congress while in jail. Follow along as Sharon tells his larger-than-life tale of public service during some of the U.S.’s earliest years as a new nation. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello friends! Always delighted to have you along and today I am sharing a really interesting story with my friend Chrissy Lawler. This is one of those stories where you are going to be like, what? What? You're going to be like, that is wild! That, I did not know that! So, buckle up. I have a great story for you straight out of the Green Mountain State of Vermont. I'm Sharon McMahon. And welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Yay! I'm so excited to have my friend Chrissy with me today. Chrissy, thank you for doing this. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun. Thank you for doing this. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

Tell everybody what you do because you have a very unique job and I love unique jobs. I started out as a licensed marriage and family therapist. I still do that, but I've pivoted into the world of sleep, specifically baby sleep and motherhood. So I'm a big believer that if we can sleep well, then everybody thrives. And I'm also a big believer that there is no one size fits all solution. So I empower moms and dads to tune into the cues of their baby, figure out what their baby needs and help them optimize sleep in a way that works for them. I love that because this is not a, like, listen, if your baby isn't sleeping 11 hours a night, by the time they're nine weeks old, then you're failing. It's not that, but yet it is also recognizing that we all do better when we're sleeping well. Yes. And so really just like, I kind of see myself as linking arms with

parents saying, okay, sleep is important. How do we prioritize that for your family and optimize it for your family based on the needs that we're seeing from your babies? Yes. Yes. And also parental style, like some parents feel comfortable having their baby sleep in a crib in another room. Some parents really don't. They want you like every parent has a different style of how they want to approach that. And I really like that you allow that space for parents to customize for what works on their own for their own. Yes. And I don't know if you had this experience, but especially for me, you know, I was already a therapist before I had kids and I run on the perfectionistic side. And so I found myself as a brand new mom flooded with so

much information and frankly, a lot of like shame of like, this is the right way to do it. And if you're not doing it this way, then you're failing. And so I, it made me even more anxious, like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling my baby in all of these different ways. And I just love her so much. And I just want to be good enough for her. And everybody's telling me that that looks different. And so the parenting resources that I found often made me feel more overwhelmed. And so that's another big reason I got into this space is I wanted to be a different voice that says, yeah, let's assimilate all kinds of information. Let's find what works for you. Let's leave what doesn't. And the main priority is happy mom, happy baby, healthy mom, healthy baby, everybody well rested. And there are lots of

different ways that we can get there. I love that. Well, I want to change. I want to change gears because the story I want to share with you today, I love so much. It's like one of those stories where I'm like, what? I cannot wait. I'm so excited. What? That is not a thing that happened, but it did. And so I just, I, I'm'm very enthusiastic about it I hope you'll have the same little brain tingle moments that I did when I was first yes okay so this is a story set long long ago in the state of Vermont and it involves a gentleman named Matthew Lyon okay not particularly well known in American history like you probably did not learn about him in eighth grade. And yet he actually has a really, really important role in U.S. history

and actually has a number of things that have made him very distinctive that I'm like, it's fascinating. I love it. So he was born in Ireland, lived in Ireland as a child. Ireland, lived in Ireland as a child, there's some evidence to suggest that his father was executed for treason. And so that led his family into this sort of downward spiral of not having adequate resources to provide for themselves. And so he decided, I want to go to the colonies. This is sort of early in American history. He decided to go to America and he was a redemptioner. And a redemptioner is sort of kind of like an indentured servant where somebody in America agrees to pay for your passage, like pay for your boat ticket. And then in exchange, you work off your passage by agreeing to be an indentured

unpaid servant for them for a period of time until you have worked off your passage. And he really is like, I got to get out from underneath the situation. I could not be an indentured servant forever. He's in Connecticut, by the way, this is like 1760. So before the colonies have even declared their independence from Britain, he begins like taking on all kinds of side jobs, like when he's free so that he can pay back the people that paid for his passage. So he can work off his time more quickly. And so instead of having it take X amount of time, it ended up taking him about half that amount of time. And he was essentially a free man after working as an

indentured servant for four years. So one of the things that I found interesting about this system of redemptioners was, this is a quote from a historian who discussed this system of being a redemptioner. The poor Europeans who think that they have purchased the land of their desires by their hardships endured during the journey across the sea are enslaved for five, seven, or more years for a sum that any vigorous day laborer earns within six months. So basically it's like a super bad deal. They're working for like five to seven years, uh, for, to earn what they would have been able to earn for six months. And then he says, the wife is separated from the husband, the children from their parents, and perhaps they never see each other again.

He gets free from being an indentured servant and decides to head to what is now Vermont where land was cheap and land was not that not cheap enough in Connecticut. There were no States at this point. And so like the boundaries, of course, all fuzzy, but it's modern day Vermont. Okay. And he joins up with this militia, which of course we today, the word militia has like paramilitary connotations of like yes we think of militias as kind of like this has a negative connotation to it at the time at the time that wasn't the case the united states won the revolutionary war with militias which are just like groups of guys yes their guns. So this militia was called the Green Mountain Boys. And sounds like a name that people would still try to use today, right?

And the Green Mountain Boys have a long and storied history where they snuck up on a group of British troops and like took their fort by night, you know, like they really thought they were hot stuff. You know what I mean? Today, the green mountain boys beat the train British soldiers, right? So professional soldiers of, of England where they like actually have real guns and uniforms and training and to like beat them was a pretty big deal. Yeah. Pat ourselves on the back. Yes. Yes. By the way, a couple of famous members of the green mountain boys were Ethan Allen and Benedict Arnold. I bet you've heard those names from history. Yes. Cool. So this is not just a group of nobodies. They later rose to prominence in various ways in U.S. history. So eventually Matthew Lyon has a falling out with one of the commanders of his militia, and he is eventually discharged from the militia dishonorably.

from the militia dishonorably. And the that's that again, not good, still not good to be discharged from anything dishonorably. And there's some varying accounts as to why he was discharged dishonorably with Matthew Lyon saying one thing and with other people saying another thing, but just know that he had this kind of temperament that made him prone to being disagreeable. It was obviously significant enough that he got kicked out of a group of dudes with guns. So that's, that's saying something like we kick you out of our group of dudes with guns. And one of the things that they use to shame people at the time to make it so that they would not ever want to be dishonorably discharged is they would make them carry a wooden sword. Feels kind of like a dunce cap.

Yes. But like military version. That's right. So he eventually gets married. By the way, he was married twice and had 12 children which is no small feat i'm sure he did very little of the child rearing i'm making assumptions based on gender roles but nevertheless 12 children is many children many mouths to feed yes that is that is many mouths to feed for one man to provide for he eventually marries this woman named Beulah and Beulah's father was well-known in Vermont

politics. And so Matthew Lyon eventually runs for a seat in the Vermont house of representatives and gets elected as one would, of course, you know, like family connections. Yes. He also eventually began to make a name for himself as a businessman and began to acquire wealth. He opened a variety of businesses. He opened a sawmill and a grist mill and a forge and a store and a hotel and a newspaper. And he began to raise his profile in the community. And this was, this is noteworthy because this is a man who literally could not figure out a way to buy a ticket to America and worked as an indentured servant now working his way up to like, I own a newspaper. Yeah. That's very impressive. Significant, right? Yeah. So he began setting

his sights on bigger and bigger political offices. And he tried to run for Congress a number of times didn't get elected. And finally, after his fourth try, he got elected to the United States house of representatives. So he is now going to be a much bigger deal, a much bigger player outside just the state of Vermont. One of the other things that's important to know about this story is that during this timeframe, there were really two sort of factions, two groups of people that were kind of precursors to today's political parties. And one group were called the Federalists and they were people like John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, and they had one view of government. And then we have people over here called the Democratic Republicans. Confusing because our

current political parties are the Democrats and Republicans. It's like, are they just mushed together? What is it? You know, that was the name of the party, the Democratic Republicans. And those, that party was led by people like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. And Matthew Lyon definitely viewed himself as a democratic republican he hated the federalists and he really hated john adams he felt like john adams was just so uppity so full of himself that john adams would just like make himself the king if he could he felt like the democratic republic Republicans were the party of the common man and the Federalists were the party of the, you know, ruling class, the elite. And he had absolutely no time for that. I'm Jenna Fisher and I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends.

And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind-the-scenes stories, hilarious guests, and lots of laughs. Guess who's sitting next to me? Steve! It's Steve Carell in the studio! Every Wednesday, we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from The Office and our friendship with brand new guests, and we'll be digging into our mailbag to answer your questions and comments. So join us for brand new Office Lady 6.0 episodes every Wednesday.

Plus, on Mondays, we are taking a second drink. You can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. Well, we can't wait to see you there. Follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcasts. He gets to Congress and does his job in Congress. It was obviously a different job back then than it is today. And one day, a man, while they're debating in Congress, a man named Roger Griswold, who was from Connecticut is trying to get Matthew Lyon's

attention. He's like, you know, whatever he's doing, tapping him on the shoulder, calling his name. We don't know precisely how he was trying to get his attention, but he was persistent in like trying to get his attention in part because Griswold and Lyon disagreed on something. And Griswold wanted to, Griswold was a Federalist. He wanted to talk to Matthew Lyon about it. And Matthew Lyon did not want to be bothered. And so he turned toger griswold and spit at him spit chewing tobacco at him and griswold was like you scoundrel and of course scoundrel at the time was like that was a very mean. Okay. Like, no, you didn't. Oh no, you didn't. How dare you call me a scoundrel? You know, like today that word is kind of old fashioned that if you, if I called you a scoundrel, you would probably chuckle. You know what I mean? You spit at me and now I'm going

to call you a scoundrel. And of course, Matthew Lyon did not like being called a scoundrel at all so eventually this this simmering conflict um reaches a head on the floor of congress and somebody says to him, like, listen, you got to let this go. There were words used like, this is a kennel of filth. When he's faced with the prospect of being expelled from Congress, he's like, listen, I won't let it happen again. Here was one, here was part of his apology. He says, perhaps some will say I did not take the right method with him. We do not always possess the power of judging calmly. What is the best mode of resenting an unpardonable insult? Had I borne it patiently, I should have been bandied about in all the newspapers on the continent, which are

supported by British money. It was like an apology, but not really an apology. Yes. One of those backhanded apologies. That's right. Uh-huh. That's right. So he's not moved by his apology. Griswold is like, that's not a real apology. I don't accept it. Like in therapy when people are like, I'm sorry that you felt that way. It's like, just like, it doesn't accept it. Like in therapy when people are like, I'm sorry that you felt that way. Just like, it doesn't really resonate. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm sorry if you got hurt. That's right.

I'm sorry if you felt offended. So he didn't like the apology. Didn't like the apology. So Roger Griswold finally is like, I've, I've had enough. So he didn't like the apology. the shoulders just like basically first of all that would hurt you know what i mean it would hurt to be hit with the wooden cane and so matthew lyon is not going to just sit there and allow himself to be beaten by a cane so he gets up and he runs over to one of the fireplaces because of course they didn't have electric heat they heated things with fire, runs over to the fireplace and grabs a large set of fireplace tongs. Oh no. Like the kind you would pick up a log with. And he begins defending himself with this pair of fire tongs while Roger Griswold is attempting to beat him with a cane.

and so everybody in congress is like excuse me we cannot be hitting one another in congress with tongs and canes and eventually other members of congress managed to pull them apart there is a very famous depiction like a drawing obviously photographs didn't exist a drawing, obviously photographs didn't exist, a drawing of Roger Griswold and Matthew Lyons fighting on the floor of Congress, like where Lyons has this big thing of tongs and Griswold has this thing of canes. They look ridiculous. And all the other members of Congress are like, just kind of chuckling, watching it happen until eventually they get separated. And of course this cartoon was printed on the newspapers, like, can you believe it? Griswold and Lyon were fighting with each other. Fighting with sticks.

With sticks in Congress. And of course, then newspapers began calling Matthew Lyon, the spitting lion. So he earned the nickname, the spitting lion. The House Ethics Committee He earned the nickname, the spitting lion, the house ethics committee then begins investigating. They can't let this go. They can't just be like, it's fine. If you do that, they need to investigate. They eventually decide, listen, both parties were like, we'll be good. We won't do it again. Don't worry about it.

We'll say sorry. We'll behave ourselves. don't worry about it we'll say sorry we'll behave ourselves and so the house ethics committee agreed to drop all of the recommendations of censure one of the things that i do think is interesting though is what griswold and lions were disagreeing about to begin with yes what prompted griswold to be like Matthew, Matthew, Matthew, and then Matthew lying to turn and spit at him and then call him a scoundrel. Then they're fighting with tongs. Yes. What was the genesis of this fight? That's right. It was a fight over a man named William Blount, who was one of the signers of the constitution. He is a founding

father of the United States. And long story short, John Adams, the president at the time, was given evidence that William Blount had been speaking to the British behind his back about ways to retain control over the Mississippi river. And he was worried that the French and the Spanish and like all of these things were going to happen and we wanted to retain control of it, but to go behind the backs of the newly formed United States government and speak to the British directly, that was a very big deal. Yeah. That feels like a big no, no. That feels like a hard pass. If you are, you are a loyal American, right? That feels like a really hard pass. The, they read these papers in front of Congress of like, what has William Blount done? And so he became the

first man in US history to face impeachment charges. They were like, this person, this is potentially a very high crime. And of course, that's one of the things you can face impeachment for is a high crime, which by the way, the constitution doesn't define what a high crime is. They filed like five articles of impeachment against him for conspiring to conduct a military expedition. I mean, like it, what he did was a big deal. So back to, back to Matthew Lyon around the same time that they're deciding if they should impeach Blount. They also passed

a couple of laws that are kind of lumped together called the alien and seditions act. Okay. And this is part of what is so mind blowing about this part of the sedition act made it a crime for anyone to write or publish words criticizing the United States government. It's a crime now. I mean, did the first amendment exist then? Yes, it did. It absolutely did exist. And so the idea that this is like, imagine today Congress being like, it is illegal to criticize the U S government poorly in writing or on TV or on the Instagram, but it also seems absurd because we definitely view it as our right to criticize the government if it's warranted, right? Yeah. So Matthew Lyon, of course, became, no surprise here, the first person prosecuted under the Sedition Act. Okay. Openly, I mentioned before that Lyon had a newspaper.

This newspaper, by the way, has a hilarious name. The newspaper was called the Scourge of Aristocracy and Repository of Important Political Truth. Wow. Here's my repository of important political truth. It's my newspaper. And in the newspaper, And in the newspaper, Matthew Lyon openly criticized John Adams, the president. Which I feel like is a given since you told me the name of his newspaper. That's right. He said a number of very unflattering things about John Adams in his newspaper. And so consequently, the United States government was like, Hey, that's illegal. We are going to put you on trial. So they did, they put Matthew Lyon on trial. It did not take the jurors very long to decide that he was guilty and he was sentenced to a $1,000 fine, which in that time period was a lot of money. That was like $20,000 in today's money and four months in jail for

speaking ill of the president. We're just going to lay down the hammer. That's right. You're going, you're going to jail. So of course, as soon as the green mountain boys find out that Matthew Lyon is in jail, they're like, Ooh, let me Adam, let me get out of you. What do you want us to do? You want us to burn down the jail? What do you want us to do? You know, like they were ready to like rest. And Matthew Lyon was like, no, no, don't burn anything down. That's only going to be worse in the long run. Let me, you know, fight this through the proper channels. He, of course, during his trial tried to use the first amendment as his defense.

He was like, but the first amendment. Yeah. And they were like, nope, doesn't apply. yeah and they were like nope doesn't apply so he decides the best revenge is to just continue to be in congress so he ran for re-election while he was in jail oh my gosh and won and one and he beat the person who's running against him by a lot it was not close the people in vermont were not dissuaded from electing somebody who was in jail in jail doesn't matter doesn't matter you're the right man for the job mat Matthew Lyon. So when he finally got out of jail, he reportedly like ran out of the jail being like, I'm on my way to Philadelphia. You know, like I I'm coming. I'm coming. Yes. So this is, this is part of the part that makes that

is that a lot of people will have their minds blown out. First of all, when he gets to Congress, there was a resolution introduced for his expulsion because he had just gotten out of jail. Like, do we want somebody who's a convict in Congress? And the, these articles said, where they're trying to expel him from Congress, they said he was convicted of being a malicious and seditious person of a depraved mind and a wicked and diabolical disposition. And so we should kick him out of Congress, but they did not have the votes to do it. So the election of 1800 rolls around. Of course, we all know when people vote for president, they're actually voting for electors. And then those electors vote and the electoral college actually chooses the president, right? Yes. Yes. If the electoral college does not have the majority that is

needed or it's a tie, then there is a system to have Congress choose the president and vice president. Okay. So that is exactly what happened in the election of 18. The two biggest candidates running for president were John Adams, who was trying to get reelected Thomas Jefferson. Okay. So the electoral college did not arrive at a winner. Now the electoral college cast two ballots, one for one for president and one for vice president at the time, they just cast two ballots, but they did not differentiate who they were voting for for president and who they were voting for for vice president. Oh, okay. So again, to make this super simple, ultimately what ended up happening is the electoral college was tied between Aaron Burr and Thomas Jefferson.

John Adams was out. Okay. People were like, you're out. And they're like, cute, but no, no thanks. So, and both Jefferson and Burr were members of the democratic Republican party. And the reason that was a tie was because they had essentially made a mistake and they had intended to have a certain number of votes for Jefferson because the electors were like, we want him to be president. And then they would, one person would throw out their ballot and there would be one fewer

vote for Burr. And then he would come in second and he would be the vice president. That's how it worked at the time. Gotcha. Okay. Made a mistake and didn't throw out a ballot for Burr. Okay. Made a mistake and didn't throw out a ballot for Burr. And so then Jefferson and Burr got exactly the same number of votes in the electoral college. Whoopsie. That means that the house of representatives had to choose who the new president was going to be in between Jefferson and Burr.

And of course, Aaron Burr famous for being the person who shot Alexander Hamilton. This is all before any of that happens. So Aaron Burr shot Alexander Hamilton in 1804. This is the election of 1800. The house of representatives took a vote. Couldn't decide a winner, took a vote. Couldn't decide a winner 30 times. Oh my gosh. Continued to re-ballot 30 times, then 31 times, 32 times. Finally, after 35 times, people are like this. I don't like, I can't, we keep doing this. I like actually don't even care anymore. And so a couple of people were finally like, I don't like, I don't know. Eventually one person just kind of sat out of the 35th ballot and that lat left there.

It was a tie between Byrne Jefferson and one person left to vote on that. One person left to vote on that one person left to vote was Matthew. Matthew Wyatt. And so it was him that cast that deciding vote for Thomas Jefferson and not Aaron Burr. And the fact that they had to work on it 35 times meant that Burr was a serious contender. Yeah. Very serious contender. And so had Burr won the presidency, there's no way to tell how America would be different today. That's crazy. Isn't that crazy that it came down to the spitting lion to determine who would be on the 35th round. The third, yes. The 36th round, they did it 35 times. And after on the 36th round, finally, Matthew line was like, I will choose.

And I choose Jefferson. That's crazy. The old spitting lion. That's right. That's right. And so of course then Burr became the vice president because he came in second and we obviously don't do it that way anymore. So by the way, I am going to eventually I'll do another episode about Aaron Burr because what Aaron Burr does after he is done being the vice president. So he shoots Alexander Hamilton, finishes his job as vice president, and then later goes on to be accused of treason against the United States and is put on trial for treason, but not for shooting Alexander Hamilton. Wow.

Something else. Yes. So that's another story in and of itself. Yes. But I always love to, it really helps me think about the gravity of situations by imagining things in modern day. First of all, members of Congress beating each other with canes and tongs on the, in, in, in the Capitol building, a member of Congress spitting at another member of Congress. It's illegal to write anything bad about the president. We'll put you in jail for that.

Okay. No problem. I'll go ahead and run for reelection from jail and still win. And I won. And now it's me. That's going to decide between Jefferson and Burr. I picked Jefferson. And of course, Jefferson doubled the size of the United States by buying the Louisiana purchase. Just that alone, just Jefferson's decision to buy the Louisiana purchase alone, massively changed the trajectory of the United States. Who knows if Aaron Burr would have done the same? Who knows? Yeah.

We could have been looking at a very, very different path for the United States had Matthew Lyon cast his one vote on the 36th round for Aaron Burr instead of Thomas Jefferson. That is crazy. Is that not crazy? Is that not wild? Yes. He eventually moved out of Vermont, Matthew Lyon did, and moved to Kentucky and then got elected to the House of Representatives to represent Kentucky. He's one of the few representatives to have represented more than one state in the U S Congress. Interesting. Is that not fascinating? That's crazy. I, he served in Congress till 1811. Like he was there for a while and he, people still know him as the spitting lion. It's crazy. Just like, like you said, you know, this one little difference and how much it changed the whole trajectory. That's wild. A hundred percent. Yes. Like any

one of those decisions of Matthew Lyon's life, literally now we can see if he had made any different decisions, it could have radically changed where we are as the United States today, that one person's choices. Yeah. And it's wild speaks to, I think it also should give all of us something to think about. Like our, we don't know how our choices are going to be impacting the rest of the world someday. Seriously. Yeah. No, that is, that's good food for thought that just, yeah.

These like little tiny tweaks and how it can change the whole trajectory. Yes. For ourselves, for other people. Yeah. Change the trajectory for your family. And then your family ends up, your child ends up being somebody who invents something really cool to change us, you know, race to the moon. You don't know. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. You don't know. Yeah. It's also super interesting that such a volatile man, you can know like spitting at people, all of that kind

of stuff, such a volatile man is the person that we can say, well, it wasn't for him. If it wasn't for him, the old spit lion. The old spit lion. That's right. Oh, isn't that just, just a wild story. That's why you, I love this all so fascinating. And the way that you tell a story, you truly are America's government teacher. Thank you, Chrissy.

Well, I would love for people, especially people who have young children, maybe anybody who's pregnant, listening to this, anybody who is struggling with their children and sleep in their family. I would love for them to check out your website. anybody who's pregnant, listening to this, anybody who is struggling with their children and sleep in their family, I would love for them to check out your website. Tell everybody, like if they go to your website, the peaceful sleeper.com, what will they find there? You will find lots of different courses and guides. I have a book and all of it is designed to, like we talked about before, help you play detective about your baby and be empowered and informed so that you can optimize sleep in a way that works for you without shame and judgment,

just strategies that work. So yeah, like you said, website is the peaceful sleeper.com. I'm on Instagram to the dot peaceful dot sleeper and yeah, not too hard to find. And you'd share a lot of great tips and content on Instagram regularly. I don't have a baby anymore and I still watch it. I'm like, oh, that's a good tip. I just want nice, hopeful things that you can file away because when we have those like real great tricks up our sleeve, it makes us feel more empowered and confident. Like, oh, I got that. So even if it's just this like burping position, that's a winner. If it makes parents feel like I'm great at this, then that's what we want.

Because parents that are thriving raise children who are thriving. That is a really good way of putting that. Giving parents the tools they need so that they can thrive and in turn, they can help their children thrive. Yes, exactly. This was really fun. This was so fun. Let's do it again. I love these stories. I would love to. Now you have a story you can tell your husband when he comes home from work. Yes, exactly. I sure do. Aw, thanks, Chrissy.

Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast? Or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those

things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.