Here's Where It Gets Interesting - West Virginia: Proving that Timing is Everything with Annie F. Downs

Episode Date: March 4, 2022

In this episode, Sharon shares the story of how West Virginia broke away from the state of Virginia with author and speaker Annie F. Downs. Unhappy with their representation in state legislature, the Appalachian communities in the Northwestern part of Virginia took advantage of Virginia’s secession during the Civil War to apply for their own statehood. Sharon and Annie talk about what makes West Virginia unique in its geography, culture, and history and why it has been sued multiple times by more than one of its neighboring states. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello! I am excited to have you here today. I am chatting with my friend Annie F. Downs, and she has a fantastic podcast called That Sounds Fun. She is an author and a speaker and such an enthusiastic learner. I love this about her. I love her level of enthusiasm for learning new things. I would love to have her back all the time on this podcast. And today I have a fantastic story for you about the incredibly beautiful state of West Virginia. If you've never been there, you need to visit. It is a absolutely gorgeous place covered in mountains and forests. And so let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. Oh, I'm so excited to have my friend Annie F. Downs with me today. First of all, what does the F stand for? Well, it's complicated in Swiss. And so we just say fancy, like I might

like Reba McEntire song. I might've been born just plain white trash, but fancy was my name. That's the song I always sing. So that's what we, Annie Fancy Downs will tell everybody everything they need to know. Are you fancy in most ways? Yeah. I mean, I just, a friend of mine says that I have champagne taste on a beer budget is kind of my like actual MO. And so, yes, I just like sparkly things. I like fancy things. It doesn't mean I get them all the time, but like, I don't need to stay in the fancy hotel, but I want to walk into the lobby. You know, that's me. If we're passing a fancy hotel, I want to walk through the lobby. Well, tell everybody what you do. If they don't already follow you, if they've not already listened to your podcast and read all of your books,

tell everybody about what you do. So I'm based in Nashville, Tennessee. I have a podcast called That Sounds Fun, where we interview friends a couple of times a week, kind of talking about what they are working on and what they love and what sounds fun to them. We take that out on tour. We go and tour the podcast. You were very kind to be a guest on our last season of touring. It was so fun. So fun. Oh my gosh, I loved it. It was the best. Yes. And then, yeah, I also write books. That's kind of how I started. I started as an author and I write nonfiction memoir type books. I have a couple that are for kids now too.

And kind of focusing on like, how do you go from here to the next place? Whatever your next place is. And then I travel and speak also at conferences, events, churches, kind of doing that kind of circuit as well as touring. Then we also have the, that sounds fun podcast network where we help other shows kind of get out, get launched and get in front of the audience they want to get in front of and that the podcaster gets paid for doing it. So we, that is a really fun thing we've gotten to build in the last year and a half. That is a really fun thing we've gotten to build in the last year and a half.

I want to talk about the beautiful state of West Virginia. Do you know I haven't ever been there? Do you know that's one of my three that's left? No, I do not know that. I am so excited about this. Okay, tell me everything. So do you, you have never been to West Virginia? No, 47 down, three to go.

And West Virginia is one of the three. What are the other two? Vermont and Iowa, Vermont and Iowa. Well, tell me your general impression of West Virginia. Okay, this isn't gonna be complimentary. So to our West Virginians, I say, my apologies for knowing so little. I think of coal mining. Yeah.

I think of, there is a wild documentary called the wild and wonderful whites of West Virginia. And it is Appalachian, Appalachian family deep in the mountains. I love that people group actually. Like I, when I hope to serve locally and serve in the U S I like to help people that are, cause I'm like, Oh, serve locally and serve in the U S I like to help people that are, cause I'm like, oh, that's my actual neighbors. Like that's my neighbors that are in really deep need. There's a lot going on and Appalachian region that people don't know about here. We don't talk about them or think about them when we think about needy communities in the

U S. And so I do, I just love them. Cause I read Christie by Catherine Marshall when I was in eighth grade and just fell in love with the Appalachian people. So that's, I think of the wild and wonderful whites, a family as well. I mean, in the hospital, when they're having babies, they're drinking Mountain Dew. Like that's who, that's what they're documenting. So, so I think of that. I think of football a little bit. Cause I think they have big football teams. I think the West Virginia football team is a big deal. That's about what I know. That's it. Okay.

Yeah. Well, I have some good stuff for you then. So at the end of this, you're going to be like, well, now I know three additional facts about West Virginia. Yeah. I don't know anything. Okay. So West Virginia, by the way, um, the entire state is enclosed within a mountain range. We always think about the mountains of Colorado, et cetera. And of course the Rocky mountains are huge, but Eastern Colorado looks like Nebraska. That's right. It's very flat and just farmland in large part. The entire state of West Virginia is inside a mountain range. And so that geography of being completely enclosed within mountains has profoundly impacted the history of West Virginia. And the other thing that's interesting about West Virginia

is that we always tend to think of it as part of the South, or at least I do. It's a Southern state, except West Virginia is that we always tend to think of it as part of the South, or at least I do. It's a Southern state, except West Virginia is North of Virginia. Yes. Yes. It is not actually West. It's not, it's actually, I mean, it's a little West, but it's mostly North. It's mostly North. And so this is a great example of how geography affects culture and how geography affects who you become as a people group, as a family, et cetera. The fact that West Virginia is so mountainous and most of the people who lived in West Virginia continue to live in remote valleys amongst the mountains that has greatly impacted the development of Virginia and a huge variety of other factors

that have gone into shape who and what the state of West Virginia has become. So the other thing that was very curious to me that I want to, that I really want to explore today is why is it West Virginia? Yeah. Why isn't it? It's just own thing. Why did it used to be connected? Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I want to tell you about today is how it got to be West Virginia. I'm very here for this. So of course we know that during the sort of colonial period of the United States, Virginia was one of the most wealthy and powerful colonies. It had, was one of the first settled. It had a climate that was very amenable to farming. And very quickly, Virginia developed agricultural plantations that used enslaved people to create

this tremendous amount of economic prosperity for the state of Virginia. And West Virginia used to be, for over 100 hundred years was part of the state of Virginia. So Virginia was just shaped like an L sort of thing. Yeah. Take the state of Virginia and West Virginia over the top. And it was, that was the state of Virginia from the, essentially from the colonies inception back when it was the colony of Virginia up until the mid 1800s. That is so like up until the civil war. That's right. Up until the civil war, it was part of Virginia. That's fascinating. And one of the things that was most interesting to me about the history of this region was how the mountain range cut off

what is now West Virginia from sort of the tidewater basin plantation region of the rest of Virginia. So because it was so mountainous, it was not arable land. It was not land that you could have a big plantation on. You couldn't easily just be like, let's begin farming this land. Let's enslave people to develop this land, to make sure that we can make a lot of money on it. And so the people who settled what is now the state of Virginia are not the same people that settled what is now the state of West Virginia. So people who settled the state of West Virginia largely were poor. Yes. People who arrived there on foot via routes coming from Pennsylvania or Maryland or the Northern part of the state of Virginia. And they were sort of this lower class. And when I say lower class,

I don't take that to mean that I'm saying people of West Virginia are low class. This is just the people who settled this region during the 1700s. They were people who had come from Europe largely. And of course there were many indigenous groups in this area too. It's not like the land was uninhabited until white settlers arrived. Many indigenous groups lived there. But when we're talking about the development of the United States, these are people who are coming from places like Scotland, Ireland, who were in large part the servant class. And they walked to this region and built themselves very small communities,

sort of perched on the side of a river, surrounded by mountains. And then it might be a long way before you got to another community. And so this profoundly impacted who lived there and what kind of industries were possible there. And so there had always been this huge separation, this huge dichotomy between the eastern portion of entire region was settled by people from certain regions of Europe who then for generations lived in these very isolated mountainous communities just speaks to so much about what West Virginia has developed into. West Virginia is truly an incredibly beautiful state. Yeah, absolutely. Incredibly beautiful. It's very popular for whitewater rafting, hiking. 75% of the state is forested. And it's very forested. So people who like outdoor adventures, who people who like to camp and do things like that is a

great state for that. But it is absolutely a gorgeous state that I feel like is underappreciated by many Americans. We, we tend to go for the big giant mountains out West, which are wonderful, but we don't appreciate West Virginia nearly enough in my opinion. No. Yeah. No kidding. I mean, literally haven't ever been there. Yeah. Well, this is a silly question. What's the capital? Yeah. Charleston. Wow. Okay. So in the early 1800s, I mean, first of all, it's not like this fact was lost on people that like, Hey, we're different here than they are down there. It's not like they weren't aware of that. Of course they were in the early 1800s. There was this movement to like, maybe we should split off. Maybe we should

become our own state. And they had even proposed, what if we called ourselves something different? What if we called ourselves a different name? What if we became our own thing? Who's the we here? Is there like a government that had set themselves up in West Virginia? No, they were governed entirely by the state of Virginia. Wow. So yes, but these are, I'm talking about the people who live in this community, right? There was this, a little bit of disgruntlement because they did not feel the people of Appalachia did not feel that they were having their needs represented by the government of Virginia, that they were mostly ignored because they had very different views, needs, et cetera, than the people in Eastern Virginia. So they had initially been like, what if we become our own

thing? And that was of course, quickly shot down because no state is ever like, you know what, it's better if you're not here. Yeah. I'd love to give up more land. Yeah. I want to, I'm hoping to become smaller, you know, no, that's not a thing. So of course the state of Virginia absolutely did not want to give them up. If you start moving forward to the time where the civil war begins in the 1860s, begins in the 1860s. West Virginia, what is now West Virginia, had had very small amounts of representation in the Virginia state government. They had always gerrymandered the districts so that western portion of Virginia would never have as much political power as Eastern Virginia, no matter what. Gerrymandering was born with the country. Who knew what happens in my town in Nashville, Tennessee was happening in West Virginia 200 years ago.

A hundred percent. It's happening since the beginning. It absolutely was. Yes. As soon as we came up with a plan of proportional representation based on population, we began gerrymandering. The truth is, as soon as white guys started drawing lines. That's right.

Yes. So because they had so little, so little political power, Virginia government came up with this taxation plan where land was taxed at this, you know, whatever percentage it was, everybody had the same land tax, but other types of property like enslaved people were taxed at much lower levels. And so people in the East began to use it to consolidate even more power because they were not taxed at the same proportional rate as people who just had land. And additionally, the people who were enslaved were counted for the purposes of representation, but of course, they did not have any ability to vote for themselves. So if you have a plantation that

has 100 slaves in a district, the population of that district is 101 or 102, but only one or two of those people could actually vote. So they were constantly waiting their own, their own representation in the Virginia state legislature, because they allowed themselves to count people that were enslaved. Whereas the people who lived in the Appalachian region didn't have people that were enslaved. And so they continually had less and less political representation, which added more and more to the disgruntlement of taxation without representation. You guys are not representing our views at the state level. Hey, Torontonians, recycling is more than a routine. It's a vital responsibility.

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and wherever you get your podcasts. In the 1860s, the state of Virginia says, we're going to join the Confederacy. We're seceding with the rest of this country because slavery is too important to our way of life and we are not willing to give it up. So of course, West Virginia was still part of Virginia at the time. So they wanted to secede and they had a meeting where they voted to secede. They had an official meeting to pass their articles of secession, where they're going to secede from the union. And West Virginia was like, where they're going to secede from the union. And West Virginia was like, no, we are not, we're not trying to secede. That's not what we're up here trying to do. We're not trying to secede from the union. And so they began to organize themselves. The people of the Appalachian region began to organize themselves to see how can we repeal these orders of secession? How can we avoid getting dragged

into this war fighting to maintain slavery when that is not something that is part of our way of white life on that is not something that we believe should happen. We want to stay as one country. Yes. And so, and I would have told you they were Southern. Yeah, totally. Wow. Yeah. It's also funny. Yeah. But they're, but they're North of Virginia and they're actually North of the Mason Dixon line. Certainly. Yeah. So the other thing that is, was very interesting was of course, once these States decided that they wanted to secede, they weren't just allowed to maintain their seats in the United States Congress. Because if you're going to be, you're going to be traitors. Get out of Congress.

You don't get to come up here and try to affect the union if you don't even want to be part of the union anymore. So what is now West Virginia decided that they knew they had Abraham Lincoln on their side because they knew they were anti-slavery. So was he. They knew that it was like, work with me here. Let's try to like make this work somehow. And so they decided that they would create their own government called the Restored Government of Virginia, basically saying, y'all secessioners are illegitimate. Oh, wow. You don't need to leave the union. We're now the real government of Virginia. And so for a period of time, Virginia, again, West Virginia is not a

thing yet. For a period of time, Virginia had two governments. And we don't know any of the names of the West Virginia, or that secondary party of people, right? No. Like they didn't go down in history in any way that I've ever heard of. No, we certainly, history does know their names. Sure. But no, they're not in our history books of like the restored government of Virginia. Right, right.

That's fascinating. So two sets of senators, two governors from the same state, from the same state. And of course, Abraham Lincoln wants the restored government of Virginia because he wants to maintain as many states in the union as possible. Yes. So eventually it becomes clear that there is no way to stop the wealthy and powerful Confederate machine from fighting the union, much to the chagrin of the union who did, tried hard to hold it together. In fact, they tried for decades to hold it together. In some cases, they made bad decisions in an effort to try to hold it together. You know what I mean? And eventually West Virginia begins having its own,

what is now West Virginia, begins having its own meetings to discuss the possibility of becoming their own state. And they have meetings where they're trying to duke it out about, should we continue to try to be the government of Virginia, you know, this restored government of Virginia? Should we break off and form our own state? And they finally came to the conclusion that to try to rule the state of Virginia from the Appalachian region was not going to be a tenable solution that the wealthy land owners of Eastern Virginia were never going to agree to move the Capitol and recognize their governor. And so they finally decide we are just going to break off and become our own state. And then they had to try to decide, first of all, what should we name

ourselves? And secondly, how do we get into the union? Yeah. Right. How do we get back into the union? And they tossed around a bunch of names. Conowa was a very- I was so hoping you had the options. Conowa? Conowa. What does that mean? That is named after a river that is spelled K-A-N-A-W-H-A. It's a native American word, Conowa. And it, you know, was sort of a boundary line, but that was a boundary between Virginia and West Virginia. Conowa was a big one. Other phrases that involved West, just Western Virginia was another one. I wonder if they just thought they were West in their heads since they didn't have like satellite images. That's right. They just thought we must be West. This is wild. Yeah. So they eventually just, they wanted to maintain their identity as Virginians.

And so they eventually decided on West Virginia. Yeah. That was the name they landed on. And they went to Abraham Lincoln and said, we would like to be admitted to the union as the state of West Virginia. And so it took a little while for Abraham Lincoln to think about it. It took a little while for him to figure out how do we make this happen? And there's a provision in the constitution that talks about how to admit new states. You admit states, Congress has to approve. And you have to get everybody on board. There's a whole process for how to get people into the union. And because the civil war was going on,

these were extraordinary times. Yeah. Abraham Lincoln is probably like, like, I've got time for West Virginia. Yeah. I don't, I don't know what you want me to do here. If you wait two more years, West Virginia, my calendar is full. Yes. I I'll be assassinated in April of 1865. And maybe my vice president can pick up where we left off here. No. So he, he realizes Congress is not what it was. You know, we did not have, we're still trying to figure out how to keep them from seceding, how to be one nation. And so in 1863, Abraham Lincoln issued a presidential proclamation granting West Virginia citizenship in the middle of the civil war in the middle of the civil war and he basically was like listen i don't know but something i want them in the union i don't know what congress is going to do we're in the middle of a war these are extraordinary measures i've done other things that i normally wouldn't do it suspended habeas corpus all these other things

let's okay west virginia your state now let's just add it on. And so by presidential proclamation, West Virginia was admitted to the union. How many states were born by just a president saying it could be a state. Is this the only one? One. Congratulations. West Virginians listening. That's right. That is amazing. And you got admitted by the OG himself. That's right. That's right. That's right. So of course, Virginia is not like cool.

Not thrilled. Sounds good to us. Not thrilled that they now have another border to contend with. Because of course, the way the mountain range was situated, the people who live there knew the mountains and the people who didn't live there didn't know the mountains. The West Virginians, a huge advantage over the people South of the mountain range, et cetera. And ultimately we all know what ended up happening. Of course, the union one. Yeah, of course, Virginia got it readmitted

back to the union and West Virginia persisted in becoming the state as it was by presidential proclamation. And West Virginia was like, you can come back in the house, Virginia, but you can't come in my room. We aren't the same anymore. We aren't together. That's right. One of the other names that I thought was funny that I thought you'd get a kick out of that, that they tossed around was Westylvania. We laugh now. Had we only known Westylvania, we'd be like, no, that's fine. Cause Pennsylvania, is it more sensible than Westylvania. No, but it feels normal. And Westylvania feels like ridiculous. That's ridiculous. Yeah. We're like Westylvania, but we'd swallow Pennsylvania whole. Like it's a normal word. Totally fine.

Westylvania was another one of their options. I thought that was really funny. Yes. So, I mean, obviously that's not where West Virginia history stops and because Virginia was not pleased, Virginia decided to sue West Virginia. No. Multiple times the state of Virginia has sued the state of West Virginia. First of all, claiming like you can't do that. First of all, claiming like, you can't do that. And the Supreme Court was like, yeah, they can. They can do that. Another time, the state of Virginia sued West Virginia saying, listen, we spent a lot of money on y'all. We spent a lot of money building you guys some bridges, building you guys some roads, and now you're just like, see you later? No, pay us back. Pay us back for the money. Oh, that's such a move. They're like a dating couple. It's like, I bought that. You can either give it back or pay me for it. That issue, by the way, um, of whether or not the state of West Virginia had to pay Virginia back for the, the improvements Virginia had made to their

region. That was not settled until 1915. Not settled until 1915. And the Supreme Court actually said, yeah, West Virginia, you do have to pay them back. They did. Yeah. You do have to pay them back. In fact, you need to pay them back $12.3 million. $12.3 million back in 1915 is no joke. I mean, it's no joke right now, but that is no joke. That was a lot of money. Yes. Yes. And so they eventually started making installment payments in the 1930s. They started making installment payments at the $12.3 million. So are they still paying it off? No, they're done paying it off now, but it wasn't, you know, like this has never been one of the most wealthy States. Then the state of Maryland wanted to sue West Virginia too, about a boundary line. Cause of course, West Virginia touches Maryland

as well. Right. Maryland was like, these counties are ours. Wow. And West Virginia ultimately was like, but, but they're not yours. They're ours. Yeah. You know, the Supreme court has original jurisdiction, which means there's no other court for disputes between states to go to oh and they go straight to the top straight to the supreme court wow and so all of these all of these state disputes go straight to the supreme court for them to decide and that is like west virginia's back everybody that's right yes states mostly sue each other over things like water you're taking too much of our water. That's our water.

The number of state-to-state lawsuits about water today is pretty significant. Georgia suing Florida for water. Florida suing Georgia for water. And New Mexico suing Texas for water. The water disputes were huge. But at the time, these were disputes about boundary lines and who pays for bridges. And you can imagine that this is a challenging issue for the Supreme Court to sort out because where in the document does it say, and if you decide to secede, then you will owe the other state money for the roads and bridges. It's not in there.

Right, right. It's not in there. If it happened today, I mean, if Texas cut in half today, who pays what for who? Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating. So the Supreme court has to decide all of those things. So one of the things I do know about West Virginia is in the nation, it is one of the, I think it's the second poorest state. Is this a factor to that? Yes. I mean, well, okay. So I wouldn't say the 12 and $12.3 million is the factor. One of the biggest factors though, is the geography. Yeah. The land,

the land. Um, so the, after they became a state, they spent most of their resources developing the natural resources of the state coal mining in particular in particular. And so they did not spend a lot of resources developing things like, you know, universities and the banking industry or whatever it is that other states have become known for. They've sunk a lot of their resources into coal. come known for, they've sunk a lot of their resources in to coal, which then that's the song by Alabama, you know, that says, hello, West Virginia coal miners. Let me thank you for your time. Yes, yes, totally. Or, or the John Denver song almost heaven, West Virginia, Blue Ridge mountains. Yes. Do a river. Yes. Life is old. They're older than the trees. I love that. In fact, one of the oldest rivers geographically in the world is in West Virginia. Is it the

Shenandoah or is it the Potomac? It's another one. It's called the new river. No way. In reality, it's like actually the real old river wow someone walks up and like this one looks new i've never seen this one before it's so shiny new river that's right so shiny and new looks brand new looks like it just got here right right yeah no that river is one of the oldest rivers in the world that river has been there since before the mountains were there. Oh, but it's called the new river. Yeah. Wow. You know, one of the things I've learned about mountains, like the blue Ridge mountains, like the Appalachian mountains that are smaller than the mountains that are out West, smaller than what we have in Alaska, California, et cetera. They're older than the big mountains. Oh, sure. They've worn down more. Yeah.

They've worn down more. What. They've worn down more. What does that mean about the tectonic plates on the East coast versus the West coast of the U S it just means that there is a move later over there than there was over here. Right. I just think it's cool that they, they've had way more time, uh, to, to, to age, like a fine wide to where they are now. That's like a fine moonshine as we would say in West Virginia. That's right. That's right. Well, the other thing that I was going to tell you, just a couple other little fun facts about, about, uh, I'm having a great time about West Virginia is that West Virginia has, of course they have a lot of coal, but that coal is deposited underground obviously and the cave system in west virginia is spectacular

one of the largest caves in north america is in west virginia you there's lots of caves that you can go just visit as like it's literally like a roadside attraction where you're like, it's a cave that I can visit. And I have been to some of these and they have stairs and they're electrified and they have all these incredible stalagmites and stalactites. And you're like, this is just like a, a small town roadside attraction. You guys have thousands of these? Right. They're everywhere. Yes. Yes. There's so many of them. Just pick, pick one, just visit and go visit a cave. Is that one of the, like when people you, you said whitewater rafting

and get that kind of stuff, it's caving. Another thing that people love to do. Absolutely. Spelunking. Spelunking. Right. Spelunking. I'm not interested in spelunking. I'll walk down your stairs with your electrified lights and stuff like that. Sure. I'll take a little peek around, but I'm not getting hoisted by a rope into a crevice in the earth. No, no underground for me. No, no, no, no, no, no. I'll go to the top of your mountain, West Virginia. I'd love to drive the top of your mountains and see the view. Yes. I'm not going in. I'm not going in. No, I'm also not going into any underwater caves ever. Not now. Not never. Listen, when you see people do that stuff where they swim under a thing and then they come up in a bubble of air, well, you're still alive in my soul would have

already died. I would have never survived that. I would have panicked myself into drowning for sure. I would definitely, my hips would be too wide. I would definitely get died. I would have never survived that. I would have panicked myself into drowning for sure. I would definitely, my hips would be too wide. I would definitely get stuck. I would not have the upper body to free myself. Imagine get lodged. And I don't have the upper body either. I couldn't do it. Yeah. I would be dead. It's not worth it to me. Also there, this is not, not anything to do with West Virginia, of course, but dark water is not as I don't, why do I want that? There's nothing good in there. There's nothing good in there. Now, listen, you are such a fan of water creatures. Yeah, but they don't live in dark caves. There's no humpback whales in a dark cave. There's only

like, that's where evil resides. Ursula does live in a dark cave. She set us up. She, we know, does live in a dark cage that's right set us up she we know we know eels and yeah pie they're trying to steal your voice no no i'm not into any of that i don't want it luckily for all of our friends listening west virginia does not have those things no nope but you are welcome in west virginia because they do not have eels in dark water no no they have beautiful whitewater rafting beautiful mountain views, beautiful forests. Why have you been there? I lived in Maryland for 10 years. Oh, so just popping over. Yeah. Yeah. And I've driven, you know, like I've been to West Virginia a number of times and every time I go there, I'm like, this is one of the most beautiful places and nobody ever visits. I mean, I'm not saying nobody,

obviously some people visit. Right. But I mean, that is when you're thinking about the financial state of West Virginia, not being a current tourist attraction state probably also factors into their, their socioeconomic status as a state. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think it's definitely worth visiting if you love beautiful outdoor scenery and if you want to go somewhere that's affordable to go, then West Virginia is a great, a great, a great option. One of the biggest diamonds that has ever been found in North America was found in West Virginia. West Virginia is where the United States postal service wanted to test what it would be like to have house to house rural mail delivery. So really mail delivery began in the state of West

Virginia in the 1890s. Horseback, I guess. Yes. Like stage coaches. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing that we would pick that the nation would say, you know where we should go where there's a lot of mountains and you're trapped in the middle of them. Let's go. If we can, if we can do it there, we can make it anywhere. That's right. That's right. Exactly. That is there. New York, New York. Well, isn't that cool? Isn't wait, I could talk for another hour about all the interesting things that have happened in West Virginia, but we could talk about the history of Harper's ferry. There's just so many amazing things, but I just, I really love the idea that like, listen, I don't care if

it's called Westylvania or what, what we're going to call it, but we can no longer just sit idly by and be taxed without representation and secede from the union when we don't agree with that. And Abraham Lincoln agreed. Yes. Yes. Yes. This was so incredibly fun, Sharon. I would do this. I would do this every day. If you were like, let me tell you about another thing. I'd sit here and learn and respond with gasps and awes. You're just, I would love Yes, you're a brilliant teacher. Thank you. Thank you. This was really fun. You are a fantastic student, Annie. Thank you. I just love learning. And you're one of my very favorite teachers in the whole world.

I am blown away at what I know about West Virginia that I did not know before. Did you learn three things? That was my goal. If she can learn three things about West Virginia, then we'll walk away happy. I need you to know what I'm picturing in my mind is who is the guy or gal that had to walk the line between West Virginia and Virginia and put the markers down. I'm like, hey, we're leaving. And here's where we're leaving. Here's the line. That's the story I want to know. Who drew that line?

Who's the person who made the first phone call to Abe and said, we've got this idea. So yeah, I learned a ton. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon says so podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor, would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or review, or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed

by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.