Here's Where It Gets Interesting - What About Bunny: The Power of Canine Communication with Alexis Devine

Episode Date: March 30, 2022

In today’s episode, Sharon speaks with Alexis Devine, human to Bunny, the sheepadoodle whose viral videos showing off her FluentPet communication skills delight viewers all over the world. Outside of memorizing over 100 English language words, Bunny often uses her word buttons to create conversation, putting thoughts together in surprising, delightful, and incredibly intelligent ways. Sharon asks Alexis about her process of working with Bunny (and her new puppy, Otter) to account for different language processing speeds, to create an effective communication vocabulary, and to make new discoveries together. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Jess, I human friend, that's right. That's right. Hey friends, welcome. So glad you're joining me today. I have a really fun episode to share with you. I'm chatting with Alexis Devine, who is the woman behind the viral account, What About Bunny? And Bunny is a sheepadoodle who has learned to communicate using buttons. It's almost like Coco the gorilla who learned to communicate using sign language. It's like that, except Bunny presses buttons in English. And it is absolutely fascinating. I bet you've come across her account on social media. And so let's dive into this conversation. I'm Sharon McMahon and welcome

to the Sharon Says So podcast. I'm so excited to chat with you, Alexis. Oh, thank you so much. I'm excited to chat with you too. Oh, I got to see a little peek of that adorable bun buns. Do you ever have pet names for other people's dogs? Yeah, I have pet names for everything and everyone, even for local trees. So I get it. I understand that. Okay. So if listeners are not already one of the many, many, many millions of followers of you on YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, et cetera, Alexis, you have an account called what about Bunny? And Bunny is your sheepadoodle. And you have a new puppy now too, a puppy named Otter. Yep. But tell everybody the gist of your account.

Well, I use assistive technology to allow my dogs to communicate with me in English. So it all started with one button with the word outside programmed on it in my voice. And I had it waiting by the door before I even brought Bunny home. And, you know, I'd come across the work of Christina Hunger, who's a speech language pathologist and Alexander Rossi before bringing Bunny home. And he's a behaviorist. And they had both taught their dogs how to communicate with them in English or in other languages using these recordable buttons. So I

thought I'd give it a shot. My goal was to have the most connected relationship possible and the best communication with a non-human animal. And so every time we went outside, I would press the outside button and say the word outside over and over again. And within a few weeks, Bunny was pressing it herself to let me know that she wanted to go outside. And we just sort of grew our board from there. Started with one button. We're at 103 right now, I think. That's amazing. So if people go follow you on social media, one of the things that's really fun to watch is just the messages that Bunny takes initiative to communicate to you. It's fascinating how she puts words together. She makes simple sentences. She asks questions. So part of what's fascinating is it's not just like, oh, wow, the dog has

memorized a lot of words. It really does seem like she initiates English communication with you. Do you agree with that? It does seem that way. Yeah. I was a little surprised to be honest. I kind of expected, well, sure. You know, in the same way that we can teach a dog how to ring a bell to go outside, we can build that association. We can teach a dog to use a button that says outside on it. So I imagined that most of her button pressing would be to request things. But after a while, it really did seem that she was sort of narrating things that were happening in her world, for a while, it really did seem that she was sort of narrating things that were happening in her world, trying to tell me about things that I didn't even understand exactly, or, you know, talking about who she wants to play with and when. And that really took me by surprise because I

didn't necessarily expect that. I also really, really enjoy her creative use of words in terms of how perhaps she doesn't have a word for something she's trying to express on her button. So she'll use the words available to her to create a meaning. For example, subtle sound to mean shut up. She'll say that to interviewers who are in our home. She'll say that to me when I'm on the phone. If her buttons were up here right now, she'd probably say that to you. And more recently, come by is something that she's been saying a lot in regards to dream. And finally, it has seemed to make sense in that context for it to mean forget. I think a lot of the times she will explore the board in ways that help her express things that she doesn't have words for. And it

takes a little bit of like puzzling on my end, but we get there. It's a fascinating sort of back and forth. We have some of the things that I have really enjoyed watching her do is talk about things that you don't necessarily, or at least I didn't, I have three dogs. I wouldn't think to have a conversation with my dog about that. You know what I mean? Like where they will be like, your bunny would be like, dad outside, you know, like her little question button, like where she's asking you, like, is he actually outside or is he upstairs? Cause I know you, you moved and he used to be upstairs a lot. Where's the cat? You were in the bathroom. You know, like she says it in her, in her way that, you know, makes sense with her buttons, like she says it in her, in her way that, you know,

makes sense with her buttons, but she makes observations that humans would never know that the dog was observing that. Yeah. For me, this happened. Definitely. One of the benefits of me teaching bunny to communicate in my language is that I became really, really passionate about learning hers, how she communicates intrinsically. So I spent a lot of time doing independent study courses and just watching her, just observing her. So it wouldn't make sense. Like after, after seeing how she's viewing the world and what piques her interest and how her body responds to certain stimuli, it would make sense to me that she wants to talk about the bird, right? Which isn't necessarily something that I would have noticed before, but after spending a ton of time watching her,

those little things start to become clear even without the buttons. And based on how excited she is when my partner comes home, it would make sense to me that she's curious about his whereabouts, but it is somewhat astonishing that she will communicate those things without having like an immediate need for something. Right. She's like, Oh, I'm thinking about dad or, Oh, I'm thinking about the cat. That's not like actually currently present. Yes. Where she's not asking for like, please take me on a walk to the beach. I really want to go swimming. She's just like pondering in her mind. I wonder where he went. I think he's upstairs. One of the things that I've also noticed is that, and I've heard you say this before too,

is that a dog's processing speed is not as fast as a human's is. And so sometimes Bunny, I will see her, she'll just kind of like tip her head back and forth like this, like she's thinking before she presses a button. Do you feel like her fluency with English has improved? Has that gotten faster or has that been like, nope, that's how fast she thinks. I think as a standard, that's how fast she thinks, depending on her emotional experience in that moment, she might be like pressing more urgently. She's like, I already know what I want to say. And nothing that you say in dialogue is going to change my mind. But I think for the most part, if I'm asking a question, it takes her a little bit of time to think about how to respond, like to think about what I'm

saying, think about what it means, and then translate that however she needs to, and then process how to respond to it. And I think that's something that we've seen across animals who are using the buttons is that they need a little bit more time to process. And this certainly makes sense if you've ever learned a second language, it's going to take me a minute to figure out what you've said and then figure out how I'm going to respond. So it makes total sense. But yeah, I think that being patient with my requests of her and patient with the responses really helps and not trying to like muddy the waters so much. So if I ask her something and she's, she's thinking she's processing, I try not to interrupt that process by saying something

else and it's like, you got to start over. It's like, wait, wait, wait. There's new, new input now. Now I got to start from square one and process that. So I really try and take my time with her as much as possible, which is why you'll see like sped up sections of my videos. Sometimes like nobody wants to watch 20 seconds of bunny processing information, or maybe they do. I don't know. I didn't, I've learned to be quite a bit more patient. I can see that. Yeah. It just requires like we as humans want to fill up any amount of silence, you know, like we don't, if I'm like, how are you today? And you sit there for 20 seconds and say nothing, but man, I'm like sweating. Just thinking about that. You got to fill that time. You better say something. You know what I mean?

So I could see how that natural human inclination to want to fill up dead space. You'd have to set that aside and be like, no, she actually just needs this time to it's cross species communication. You know, like it's not, it's, it's even perhaps more complicated than we are, than we fully understand. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it would probably do us as humans well to take a little bit of time before we respond as well. That impulse to fill space keeps things fast paced, but it doesn't necessarily lead to the cleanest and most concise communication sometimes. Good point. But if sometimes if we took 30 seconds to say what we actually compose, what we actually want to say. Yeah, exactly. following you, she has these little buttons that she presses with her paw that are audio recorded with your voice. So when she presses it, she hears and the listener hears your voice saying a word, and then she can press them in whatever sequence she wants. So how do you decide like, you know,

we really need a button for is X. Yeah. At first I tried to think of what do most dogs like? Most dogs like outside. Most dogs like to play. She's probably interested in the names of her specific toys. She probably wants scritches and affection, and she probably wants to be able to like label the other animals that are in her world, like dad and cat and all that. After I started really observing her behavior, I tried to pick things that seemed intrinsically motivating to her, despite whether or not they were intrinsically motivating to me, for example, bird, right? Like I don't, I wouldn't have thought that she would want to talk about birds, but it became clear to me that she did. When we moved to emotions, which were less concrete terms, I thought that it would be important for her to be able to express how she was feeling. Now, naturally we all experience emotions, dogs and humans alike,

and we probably don't experience them in exactly the same way. But my thought process was that if I could find a moment where she was experiencing an approximation of an emotion that I know, perhaps I could model that for her. And then we could touch on those. And maybe she could express because of how she's feeling what she wants to do. And that would lead me to add other buttons that seemed relevant. And then we moved on to time of day, I wanted her to be able to express if we did something yesterday that she really enjoyed, I wanted her to be able to tell me about it today. If there was something that she really wanted to do tomorrow, I wanted her to be able to tell me about that today.

And of course, an ouch button. I thought that was important because evolutionarily speaking, dogs don't express their pain because it would be a signal that they're weak, right? So they're not keen to show signal that they're weak. Right. So they're not, they're not keen to show us when they're in pain, but how wonderful would it be if our dogs before there was a need for critical care could tell us when and if they were in pain. So we'd already added some body parts. We'd added paw and ear. And one day she got a cut on her paw at the beach. And I was like, I'm going to add an ouch button. So I had an ouch button, modeled paw ouch and, you know, showed her on her paw where the ouch was. And then later on, I had some tattoo work done and she sort of sniffed with curiosity and I was

able to model ouch again. And then she was spayed. And then shortly thereafter, she was able to press ear ouch and turns out she had an ear infection. So she started being able to use that to express when and where she was in pain, which was pretty, pretty miraculous to me. I love that. How long does it generally take her? Oh, there are some buttons that I don't think she's mastered that we've had for ages. And some of them are quite quick. Usually when I add a button and I show it to her and I say the word and I press the button, she'll use it in a context, whatever that context may be within the first 24 hours. And then she'll look to me for like, what does this mean? How, how do I use this? And I'll model it within another context if, if applicable at that time. And she'll spend the next couple of days pressing it in context of other buttons to see what my reaction is and how it makes sense and if it makes sense.

But some words are really easy. Some words, I don't know if she'll ever get them. And it's hard to say what her experience and understanding of the very subjective words are. This whole process has sort of been guided by a what if and why not philosophy on my end. So yeah, who knows? What do you have to lose, really? Exactly. It's all about connection and, and exploration of communication. And I'm really not here to prove anything. I love that. But most of all, the passion and care that goes into producing the local, high-quality milk we all love and enjoy every day. With 3,200 dairy farming families across Ontario sharing our love for milk, there's love in every glass. Dairy Farmers of Ontario.

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he is handsome. Look at that handsome boy. He is 10 months old. He's a standard poodle. I chose to go with a standard poodle instead of a sheep a doodle for my second dog, because I started learning a whole lot more about how ethical breeding works and how responsibly bred dogs should be bred. Bunny wasn't from like a backyard breeder or a puppy mill or anything like that, but she was from a breeder who could have done things a little bit differently and a little bit better. And so when I started looking for my second dog, I wanted to make sure that he was from a responsible breeder who was doing all of the genetic health testing, which is really important to me, who had proven dogs, who was raising with puppy culture or avidog or aviculture, I forget what it's called.

These were just things that were important to me. And Bunny is reactive and extraordinarily sensitive. And so it was really important to me to know the temperaments of his parent dogs and as much as possible to ensure that I was getting a stable dog because I really wanted him or her to integrate well within our little animal family that we already have. How has the adjustment been for Buddy? It was a slow adjustment. We intentionally took things incredibly slowly. They were separated for about a month with small face-to-face interactions and like parallel walks and lots of individual time. And now they do really well together. They play several times a day.

Bunny lets him be predator. She sort of lays on her back and lets him chew her neck. And then she also snarks at him, right? Like he's an obnoxious adolescent. And so she'll yell at him periodically. And I think that's just part of her temperamental makeup. She's just like sort of a no nonsense. Like, I don't have time for this BS kind of gal. She has boundaries that she clearly. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. And I respect those. And that's another thing that I've really come to appreciate about dogs is how to advocate for them, right? Like not all dogs want to be pat on the head. Not all dogs need to make doggy friends. So really learning the individual needs of your dog and advocating for those has become important to me. We just got a new puppy. She was a rescue about three or four weeks ago and we have two older dogs. And you know, one of the things I learned in doing more research on this is about when you have an older dog or an established dog in a home that is defining and articulating what their

boundaries are for the puppy. Sometimes that, I mean, they communicate that with growls and snaps and snarls and facial expressions, and they sound mean to humans where, and then you want to punish them, be like, don't do that. Don't growl at her. And the, all the things that I learned were like, no, that's absolutely what they should do because then they're not, you should not punish them for expressing a low level boundary that the puppy will learn to respect. And then if they repress it, then it forces them to like stuff it down, stuff it down, stuff it down until there's a big explosion and perhaps a bigger physical confrontation than if the dog had just like growled, like get away from me. Yeah. We love the growls. We want to see and hear those low level communications because like you said, if we suppress those and punish those, they're going to go straight to bite. So we like those. We like the communications. We reward the communications. Yes. Bunny, we did like a practice sleepover at my parents' house for bunny, because we're

going to go on this road trip. Otter is going to come with us. And I just don't think it would be a great environment for bunny. I think it would be overwhelming to her and flooding. And while we were there, bunny did a little, a little growl. And my mom was like, no, I was like, no, we love growls. And it made perfect sense to her after I explained it. And I think a lot of people don't

don't know that right like because brows are intimidating it seems like bad dog behavior right that's right but I think we need to reevaluate what is a good dog and what is a bad dog when it comes right down to it but we like communication we like we like it a lot we like women with boundaries oh yes we do it's fun to see too how that's not offensive to dogs the way it is to humans you know like otter's like oh okay well i'm he will i'm sure he quickly learns to back off of what she tells him not to do and but then they don't hold it against each other like well bunny is not my friend anymore like no that's just how dog society works how a dog back later they're like he's like chomping on her neck

and they're fine. Yeah. Yeah. We ascribe so many human intentions to dog behavior that is not necessarily real. Yes, absolutely. They do experience a similar range of emotions to us, but not because of the same things that we do. That's right. They don't feel guilty about having done a thing or yeah. They're not like holding a grudge. Right. Right. I've often said that we don't, just humans don't deserve dogs. Dogs are, they're just, there's, there's actually a lot humans could learn from dogs at a huge variety of fields. How has Otter been doing with his, with learning buttons? Yeah, he picked several words up very quickly and then also very quickly became an adolescent. And now he's just

like, I'm going to eat everything. And now he's more like smash, smash, grab bite, then communicate with the buttons. But he is very, very clever. And I think as he ages out of adolescence a little bit, I think we'll be able to expand on his board quite significantly. I mean, I haven't been super, super focused on, on teaching him with the buttons to be perfectly honest. I'm super busy and Bunny's been doing some of that teaching for me. It would appear, which is really cool. He learned early on from through observation of her, that the buttons had value and meaning. And so I think he started using them more quickly than I would have expected. And I think as he continues to age, he'll, he'll pick a lot of, of words up in that way.

Does she speak to him in, I know they communicate in their dog way, but does she speak to him using the buttons? Does she try to tell him what to do? I think mostly she communicates with me about him, right? Like, especially early on, it was like, oh, she was pressing her button over and over again, or like looking at him when he was like humping a pillow and pressing. Why? Why this? So there was a lot of that or like, like looking at him just like zooming around the house. It's like all done, all done. Why? Buddy is all of us. Why? Why? She kind of seems like an old lady to me sometimes, like a grumpy old lady,

but she's also just like the sweetest creature alive. Yeah. That's adorable. I think that's very interesting that she, she wants to talk to you about him. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how she knows how to do it. That's how she communicates with you. Yeah. And she communicates with Otter using their own language. Yes, exactly. Which is what I would expect. You know, you and I were having a conversation. If I started speaking Italian, that would feel a little bit unnatural because who knows if you understand it and how, you know, our conversation would be slower. So yeah, they've got a beautiful communication style already. All she has to do is like yell at him in bunny and he's

like, Oh, okay. Um, and then yeah, she can just sort of tattle on it to me. Look at what otters do. Yeah. I love that. So tell me more about why do you think the public is so interested in bunny? Why do you think the public is so interested in Bunny? Well, I mean, I think everyone wants to know what their animals are thinking, right? And I think that some of the things she's thinking are like obvious, right? It sort of paints this picture of like, yeah, we knew our dogs were thinking this, but now Bunny's saying it out loud and it's really endearing. I like to think that people appreciate our relationship. You know, the account's really about Bunny, but it's also about

us and what I'm learning and how teaching my dog to talk to me has sort of taught me how much she's saying without buttons. So yeah, I think that there's an element of relationship that people appreciate and just an element of like Coco the gorilla was like such a fascination for my generation growing up. And bunnies being compared to, you know, Gen Z's Coco. And I think people just really want to hear in our language what our animals are thinking, which does feel a bit egocentric, which is why I think it's really, really important to recognize that our dogs are communicating with us all the time and that they don't need buttons to communicate with us. But I think that watching our dogs communicate in this way sort of motivates us to really listen to them because, oh, they're speaking in a language that I understand. So I'm going to take the time to actually hear them.

And I think people are starting to listen without the buttons because of it as a result. And it just brings a, another layer of sort of empathy to the experience that our animals are having in a world that's not necessarily made for them. So true. I love that. I have you seen the movie up? Yes. Yes. I think it's in some ways, it's a little bit like the callers that say what the dog is thinking, you know, like Doug, the dog is like, I just met you and I already love you. Yeah. All the things that we want, Love you. Yeah. All the things that we want. We, we imagine that our dog is saying, yeah. You know how people have pet voices for their animals and they narrate what they believe their animals are saying. Do you ever do that for bunny or for otter? Do you ever speak for them in like,

you know, like a dog voice? Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. And I don't really, because their voice is my voice. I think when I hear them, I just hear like robotic version of my voice. Everyone's like, how did you get those recorded buttons with that voice on? I'm like, it's my voice. You're like, oh. Oh, I have one dog who is a yellow lab, who is very smart, but she's also a little self-centered. who is very smart, but she's also a little self-centered. And so I have a whole, you know, like in her, in my mind, her voice sounds a certain way. She really talks herself up a lot in my mind. Her name's Molly. And in my mind, she's always saying things like I can read books, you know, like where she, she overvalues her own intelligence dramatically. I've had a good day mining for Bitcoin, you know, just all the, you know, things she's obviously not really

saying, but it amuses me. I love that. That's really funny. Yeah. I would imagine you have a lot of people who are like, how can I teach my dog to do this? Right? Like do people reach out all the time asking, how can I get started training my dog? What do you tell them? What advice would you give somebody who wants their dog to start learning these things? Yeah. So first and foremost, there's a website called theycantalk.org, which is this huge and amazing community forum where people can troubleshoot. There's all sort of tips and tricks for learners. But for me, the most important thing is get to know your dog, right? Like if you add a button that is something that they're not intrinsically reinforced by,

they're not going to want to communicate about it. So just get to know your dog, really listen to them, think about what they would want to communicate and add buttons that, you know, focus on those things. I always recommend paw targeting exercises for actually press the buttons. And there's some really simple online tutorials for how to do that. And then, yeah, you know, talk to your dog all the time. Talk to your dog like a crazy person. Because that's what I've done from day one. I'm always having conversations with them out loud. I'm repeating myself as though I would a young child, although I don't have young human children. So I don't know if that's how it's done, but that's how I imagine it's done.

Um, to talk to your dog, listen to them, really build that relationship. You know, if you don't have a solid foundation of trust and communication already, it's going to be more challenging to motivate them to communicate with you. Those would be my tips. I've noticed too, this is something that's fascinated me about Bunny, is that like, dang, she knows the position of all of those buttons. It's at least seems that way that she can walk right up to that and bird outside. Do you feel like she has them all memorized i mean there's no auto correct on her board so she definitely makes mistakes sometimes sure but yeah i think she knows some specifically and some more generally where the placement are

just like you know a touch typist can type without looking at the keyboard motor mapping and motor planning applies here with the board as well. She's very familiar with like this sequence. So I think after endless repetition sort of sinks in and that way. She's that muscle memory. Yeah. Yeah. So do you, is there a method for how you choose? Like, okay, uh, we're going to add the word trash to her board. Maybe she's getting into the trash a lot or whatever it is. Is there a method for where you would choose to place it? Or does it just go into the next available empty spot? No, I mean, originally how I had them arranged was like, I'm just going to start with

these words. We're going to arrange them on a grid. And as I add, I'll just move forward, like, you know, towards the right on the grid. About six months in, I came into contact with Leo Trottier, who is the founder of Fluent Pet, and he suggested that I try arranging them based on the Fitzgerald Key, which is a method that was developed by Edith Fitzgerald in the early 1900s to help deaf children learn SVO, so grammar and syntax. So they're arranged based on word groupings as they would appear in a sentence, right? Who, what, when, where, why, and then your people and then objects, places, et cetera. So that in theory, she could go from left to right on her board and create a sentence. And they're all grouped based on those word types so that she

knows here's a tile full of people and mom is right in the center of that tile. Dad's up here, cat, whatever. What do you feel like are her most used buttons? Outside park and beach for sure. She's been pretty fond of the UGG button lately. How did we all? Her new poodle brother. We added a medicine button recently, and she's been using that several times a week. She's on a daily stomach medicine right now, but she's having some gastro problems and her pills get wrapped in prosciutto. And that's the only time that she gets prosciutto. So she is excited for her medicine. She uses mom quite a bit and dad quite a bit play quite a bit ball, you know, sort of the

typical things that you would think a dog would talk about, except for the medicine. Of course. Oh, bun buns. She's a good girl. She is a good girl. She has done a lot for a lot of people. I just love watching her. And it's one of those things where you're having a bad day.

You can check in with what bunny's doing. And I, there's just something about it. I truly believe I put this, this on my Instagram every day that animals are a gift to humans in many ways. They really are such a gift. Our lives are so much richer because animals are in the world. And I always feel that after watching Bunny just be like, you know, say whatever she has to say. It doesn't even matter what it is. She says a lot of the same things over and over and I never get tired of watching it. You know what I mean? Yeah. So thank you for your hard work in teaching Bunny to communicate so the rest of us can enjoy it too. And for sharing. Yeah. Oh, okay. So where can people find you online? Because I know there, if they're not already following you, they're going to want to after this.

Yeah. So I am whataboutbunny on all platforms, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. She might start her own Twitter account soon, but we haven't yet. It would just be like things Bunny has said throughout the day. Mm-hmm. I feel like the Twitter should just be from the perspective of Bunny. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think it would just be like something she has said every day, something she has said. Yes. Or it could be like something she has said every day, something she has said. Yes. Or it could be like a haiku, like a bunny haiku. I can see wanting to retweet that. There's just something about that that would be very amusing. If, if the whole tweet was like very amusing. If, if the whole tweet was like.

Bunny go park now. Yeah. Yeah. Legitimately. Yes. I want to retweet that immediately. Okay. Done and done. We're starting our Twitter today. Oh, thank you so much for doing this. This was absolutely delightful. It was really fun to see Bunny and I am so grateful for your time. Thanks for having us. This has been such a delight. Yeah, I appreciate your time as well. Thanks.

Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you

share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend? All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.