Here's Where It Gets Interesting - What Makes a Great Leader Stand Out with Stephen M. R. Covey

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

On today’s episode of Here's Where It Gets Interesting, Sharon has a conversation with bestselling author Stephen M. R. Covey about effective leadership and high trust culture. The most underrated attribute in great leaders is humility which means that effective and trustworthy leaders are those who seek to understand first and be understood second. The working world has evolved since the start of the Covid pandemic and its leadership needs to reflect new practices built on the principles of “trust and inspire”. But what does good leadership in our communities and in our country look like? How can we apply the same principles about working leadership to leadership within our interpersonal relationships, and as we seek to lead change in our communities? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Terms and conditions for our different programs and policies apply. Details at Fizz.ca. Hello, friends. Welcome. So excited that you're here with me today. I cannot wait to share this conversation with Stephen M. R. Covey with you. We're talking about the type of leadership the United States needs right now and the type of leadership we need in our communities and in our homes.

So I hope you'll join me because here's where it gets interesting. I'm Sharon McMahon, and welcome to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am really excited to be chatting with one of the world's authorities on leadership, Stephen Covey. Thank you for being here. Hey, thank you, Sharon. I'm so excited to be with you today. Tell everybody a little bit more about your background, how you got started working in this space and what your work has looked like over the years. Well, I started in this space partly because of my father, who is Dr. Stephen R. Covey, who wrote kind of the big book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. A lot of people know about and have read or seen.

And what's interesting is that I was kind of in there on the ground floor when The Seven Habits was being put together by my dad with all of us kids. You know, we had a big family. There were nine kids. I was one of them. And we were the first guinea pigs, I like to say, of his ideas, of his teachings. He tried it with us first. I kind of knew that the Seven Habits book was coming out. I knew it was going to be good because I'd seen how it impacted us as kids, but I also saw, as my dad had done some consulting and speaking

in different settings, how it was impacting people. And yet the book had not been published. And I just finished business school. I went to Harvard Business School, got an MBA. I'd done different things. I worked on a short stint on Wall Street. I worked in real estate development. But then I decided I'm going to join with my dad because I think he's got a

book that could really change the world. And I want to be a part of that. And so I joined a small company compared to these big offers and everything because I wanted to make a difference and it got me involved. And that happened right before the seven habits came out. And then that came out and it went really big and, and we built our company and, and I began to, you know, work with clients and then, and then lead clients and, and, and teams. And then pretty soon I was running, building the company for my dad all around the world, which was really fun. And I did this for some 13 or so years until I finally felt like, Hey, now I have something to say. I found my voice in the process, Sharon, where I realized the power of building a high-trust culture, how when we did that, that changed everything. We could be so much more effective and creative

and innovative and engaged and really tap into the potential and talent of people. And I began to be enamored with this idea of trust, trust, trust. And then I also realized that most of the stuff written about trust was either too academic or too simplistic. And it didn't treat trust enough as a practical, tangible, learnable skill. And so I said, aha, I think I found what I want to talk about. And so I kind of went to my second act of my career. My first act was to build a business with my father. My second one was now to talk about what I felt was a big idea that had been underestimated. And that was the centrality of trust. And so I wrote the book, The Speed of Trust. And I've been talking about it, speaking about it ever since. And now I've got this brand

new book out, Trust and Inspire, How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others. And it's really about the kind of leadership that I think is needed today in our society. I would totally agree with you that we need more trust and inspiration, not just in our business workplaces, but also in our government leaders and our communities. We need more trust and inspiration. And you're absolutely right that if you take the long view of history, most of the people who have been highly effective at creating change have had high levels of trust and have been able to inspire others. Absolutely. The greatest influence is the influence that lives on after the person has gone because of who they are and how they lead

and the connections they establish as opposed to the position or authority that they had. And you can have formal authority, but not have that moral authority. And you can have position, but not have influence. But the greatest impact that's more sustainable and lives on comes from the influence of a person. And you look at so many leaders throughout history. Yes, position matters, but also what matters is influence. And it's really around building trust and inspiration that can really ignite a lot of fires within other people and bring out the best in them. And I think that's more enduring. Yeah. Wouldn't you rather be remembered for those kinds of contributions than like, well,

they were a great micromanager. Nobody wants that on their epitaph. Nope. The ultimate micromanager is not what you want, but to see the potential in people and to help them come to see it in themselves, that's great leadership. In fact, that's a definition for leadership is seeing and communicating people's worth and potential so clearly that they come to see it in themselves. Then you're really leading because you're bringing out the best in them. A mantra I try to adopt is this idea of my passion is your potential. Because then my focus is on how can I, am I seeing the potential in those that I'm working with?

Am I communicating it so that they can come to see it in themselves? Am I developing it? Am I communicating it so that they can come to see it in themselves? Am I developing it? Am I unleashing it, giving them opportunities, chances to utilize it, to put it into action? And it kind of comes back to what you see. I love the statement by, I think it was Thoreau who said, it's not what you look at that matters. It's what you see. And so when you see people, do you see the potential inside of them? That's what great leaders do. It starts with that. I love too that great leaders

are not people who have self-promoted themselves to the fullest extent. It's not about like, hey, everybody, I am super great. You should all be following me because I am clearly the greatest. It does not have the same level of enduring contribution as people who inspire greatness in others. Beautiful. I couldn't agree more. In fact, perhaps the most underestimated, underrated attribute of great leaders is humility. And this underlying humility where a humble person is more concerned about what is right than who is right, about helping and serving rather than about getting the credit. And they're seeking to make a difference and to bless as opposed to impress. But this humility underlies it.

They're also courageous. And that's an interesting combination of having both humility and courage. You know, humility to recognize there are principles out there that govern. And I want to abide by those principles, work with those principles that matter and focus on service and contribution, not about self-aggrandizement and

credit and recognition. And yet at the same time, I also need to be courageous. And it's one thing to be self-serving courageous. Another thing to be service-oriented courageous, that I'm going to try to do the right thing, even when there's a cost or a consequence. I have the courage to do that. Not because I want attention and to self-anguidize myself, but because I want to serve others and I want to make this difference and matter. So you've identified it. The humility is so vital. In fact, I'll cite one study that this comes from LRN and they looked at leadership and the best leaders and what inspired others from these leaders. And they found that a leader who is humble and demonstrates humility is 18 times more likely to inspire those that he or she is leading. So people are drawn to someone that demonstrates humility, vulnerability, openness, authenticity, as opposed to just the brute strength, the idea that it's just this authoritarian idea of leadership. But no, no, it's a humble,

I call this, you know, trust inspired. It's still strong, but it's not forceful. And, you know, it can be authoritative, but it's not authoritarian. And so it's this inviting approach with still high expectations, still high accountability. It's a better way to lead. It's the kind of leadership we need today. I love that. I love that. I also love one of the

seven habits of highly effective people, which is to first seek to understand before you seek to be understood. And that coincides exactly with what you're saying. It's having the humility to understand others before you force your own viewpoints on them. And I've seen the importance of seeking to understand before being understood. I've seen the importance of that in my own life. And I think it's something we're sorely lacking in communication in the world in a variety of spaces today. In so many spaces. And you're right. That takes humility that someone else has something of value to offer. And I don't need to just get my point across. You subordinate your ego to trying to say, look, let me try to understand this other person first.

Seek first to understand and to be understood. I couldn't agree more. My father felt that that was understanding to be understood. I couldn't agree more. My father felt that that was maybe the single most important learning he had in the field of interpersonal communication and not just communication, but interaction that you want to have influence with others. First be influenced, first understand. But our tendency, especially when we have strong ego, is we want to be understood. And you're right. You look in our society, people don't feel heard. They don't feel understood. People are just talking, trying to be understood, but not seeking to understand. And I think part of the reason for this, Sharon, is that I think we've too often conflated for this, Sharon, is that I think we've too often conflated understanding with agreement.

And as if, gosh, if I try to understand you, they might think I'm agreeing with them. No, you may not agree. You may disagree. But the whole point is not to start with judgment, the evaluation, the agreement, but just first start to seek understanding to where they feel understood. Because when they feel understood, that's like giving someone emotional air or psychological air. What oxygen is to the body, understanding is to the heart. And again, you may not agree with anything that they see it, but you're just trying to understand that when they feel understood, they're now more open to listen to you and then you can feel understood. And once both people are feeling understood, you might find that you're able to come up with new ideas that are more creative

and innovative that you would never even think about if you're both trying to be heard. I like to say that listening to understand does not obligate you to agree. And I think that it's just a rephrasing of exactly what you're saying, that we have this fear that if I give you the time of day to share with me your feelings on a topic, that I am giving my tacit approval of your viewpoints. When in reality, it's a tremendously important tool of leadership, but also a tremendously important tool of persuasion. If you ever want the chance to influence somebody else's viewpoints, you better understand where they're coming from first. Otherwise, you have no hope.

You don't. If you don't understand them, you're not going to influence them. But when you do understand them, and more importantly, when they feel understood, then your ability to influence them has actually gone up. But also, why? Because they have already influenced you. They didn't necessarily change your opinion. It's just that you were influenced in that you now understand them in a way where they feel understood. And that's huge at advancing the relationship. And they're now

far more likely to listen to you to where you can feel understood. And yeah, it's simple, but just not easy. And we are in a society that talks without understanding. And I do think it's right. I think I like how you phrase it as well, that we think that by understanding that we might give tacit approval. And I just like to separate, like you, understanding and agreement or disagreement. You may disagree. It's just you're seeking understanding first. And that is powerful because then we'll come up with new ideas, new possibilities, greater influence that we can have together that you can never even go there if people still feel like I'm not being understood. I've seen this in business. I've seen

it in personal relationships. You have as well. Our listeners have. And yet we're in a world that is really lacking understanding. Visa and OpenTable are dishing up something new. Get access to primetime dining reservations by adding your Visa Infinite Privilege card to your OpenTable account. From there, you'll unlock first-come, first-served spots at select top restaurants when booking through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. We are best friends. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies, where we rewatched every single episode of The Office with insane behind the scenes stories, hilarious guests and lots of laughs.

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If you cannot repeat back to somebody else what it is that they believe and why and have them say, that's right, that is what I believe. If you cannot do that, then you don't understand it well enough. Often, we have strong assumptions about why somebody else believes what they do. They're a terrible person. That's why they believe that. Whereas the other person, they don't view themselves as a terrible person. They actually have in what in their mind is very legitimate reason for believing what they do. But until you can articulate to them and have them agree, that's right. That's exactly what I believe and why. Then there still needs to be communication between you. Yep. You're exactly right. I put it this way. The test of understanding is not when you tell the person, Hey, I understand you. It's when they tell you,

I feel understood. Thank you for listening. It's really empathy. And empathy is, you know, you get into another person's shoes. You're not putting your autobiography onto them, your interpretation, your judgments, and your evaluations or interpretations of them of, oh, I know where they're coming from. They're thinking this. No, you're still into your, you're operating out of your autobiography. You're not into their shoes. You're still wearing yours. They don't feel understood. But the way you said it is beautiful that until they tell you, thank you, we haven't arrived yet. And so it takes some time to do this, right? Because you can't just kind of go through the motions. You got to be committed to really trying to want to understand. And again, it's easier to do it if you know that understanding does not mean agreement.

So while it takes time upfront, once you achieve understanding, you move fast. I like to say you got to go slow to go fast. And with people, fast is slow and slow is fast. So when you try to be efficient with people and just, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get fast. So when you try to be efficient with people and just, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get you. I understand you, but they don't feel understood. Let's move on. You're going to move slower going forward because they're not feeling heard or understood yet. But if you take that time, you go slow until they say, gosh, thank you. I feel understood. Suddenly once there's understanding, you come up with all kinds of things and you move fast.

So with people, fast is slow and slow is fast. And in this Trust and Inspire book, I call this empathy. That is one of the behavioral virtues we need today, empathy and performance. I put those together. It's kind of a paradoxical combination. And it's back to this idea of when you have empathy for another and you are influenced by them, your ability to then influence them has gone up. You can perform better.

And when you also, if you're leading a team or people and you understand their situation, their context, them, you can help create conditions for them to perform better too, because you know what they're working on. I was with a client where the manager had to let someone go, but they got in the exit interview and the person said, well, I needed help on these things. They said, well, you are not performing at doing this. And the person said, well, I needed help on this, but I didn't know how to ask for it. And they learned something that they actually had the capabilities, but they needed more development, more training.

And they changed their mind in the exit interview and said, well, you should have spoken up. But then the person said, but maybe I should have been more observant and offering of this. And they said, let's give you another chance knowing this. There was greater empathy, greater understanding of this person's needs. And then going forward, this person became a true coach to that person, and they became one of their top performers. That empathy they showed for them helped that person perform better. So it helps those you lead perform better, but it helps yourself perform better. But it starts with empathy, with understanding. You talk in your book about how leadership has changed over the years. And I really think we're seeing one of the most rapid shifts in work culture that we have ever seen. And that

rapid shift in work culture is going to play out in other places in society, no question. You're seeing a very huge mindset shift on the part of employees, and sometimes perhaps not the leadership of a workplace or of a government even have not evolved at the speed of the employees. I'm thinking of the great resignation. I'm thinking of people who strongly desire to work from home. I'm sure you've heard of quiet quitting where people are like, listen, I'm just going to do what I'm paid for. And that is it. I'm not going above and beyond. I'm not staying late. I'm not doing unpaid work anymore. I'm just going to do what you're paying me.

That's it. So I would love to hear from you a little bit more about how leadership has changed over the recent decades and especially how it needs to change moving forward. Yeah, absolutely. You've beautifully phrased and positioned what's happening right now, right in front of our eyes with the workplace itself changing, work from home, work from anywhere, remote work, hybrid work, intentionally flexible work. Work itself is changing. It's more collaborative, more interdependent, more service-oriented,

also more diversity than ever before. As many as five generations at work with completely different expectations of how they want to be led and engaged and all these shifts and changes. And so suddenly people have choices and options that they never had before. So the great resignation happens because people are saying, no, wait a minute, what am I doing? I want to work this way. I want to be trusted and inspired to work from home or work from anywhere. I want to have more purpose, more meaning, more contribution in my life. And people have choices and options today that they didn't have before. And so the workplace is changing. And a new world of work requires a new way of leading. We can't lead in the old way of,

I call it command and control. What's happened over the years, we've improved. We've gotten better. We brought emotional intelligence into our leadership. We brought strengths and mission and a lot of good things. But too often, Sharon, the paradigm hasn't changed. So it's become an enlightened command and control, but we're still too much in the paradigm of managed people and things. And we need to shift the paradigm to manage things, lead people. Yes, we need to be really good at management of things, of processes and strategies and systems and structures. So I call this shift moving from command and control, even the enlightened command and control, to trust and inspire, where the whole premise is people

don't want to be managed. People want to be led. They want to be trusted. They want to be inspired. And I've seen some companies that have embraced this and they really trust their people. I've seen other companies where they maybe didn't have a choice during the pandemic and people were working from home, but the people didn't feel trusted. They just felt like they're now being micromanaged from a distance. And sometimes they put in place surveillance software to track them. Are they really working? And that's not going to work. People are going to leave because they don't want to be managed. They want to be led, trusted, inspired. And so you won't build a great high-trust culture that inspires people

with a command and control mindset. We need to move to a trust and inspire mindset where you see the greatness inside of people. You see people as whole people, body, heart, mind, spirit, not just economic beings. What is the difference between management and leadership? They overlap. And sometimes they're used interchangeably just as a semantics issue. With that as a baseline, in management, it's about efficiency. Leadership is about effectiveness. Management works in the system. Leadership works on the system. You're stepping back.

And management is about practices. Leadership is about principles. Management is about compliance. Leadership is about commitment. I don't want to say that management is bad and leadership is good. They're both good. We need good management and that we need great management of things, of processes, of systems, of strategies, of finances, of the numbers. You manage the business, but you lead the people. Our problem, I believe, is that we live in a world that is overmanaged and underled. And because we've become so good at management, we start to manage everything as if there are things including people. And so we start to manage people as if they were things. We try to be efficient with people.

We don't have that understanding, with people. We don't have that understanding, that empathy. We don't go slow to go fast later. Manage things, lead people. When you start to manage people as if they were things in today's world, you're going to end up with no people and a lot of things because they'll go elsewhere. You'll experience a great resignation firsthand because people want to go to where they're led, trusted, inspired, not managed. How can somebody who, let's say they're a teacher or a nurse and their job is not necessarily about affecting other, leading people in their workplace. maybe they're a stay-at-home parent or they're in a college. They're not in a position of leadership within an organization yet, or even ever. How can an average person trust and inspire? How can they

take some of these principles that you're talking about and apply them to their lives? Beautiful. Thank you. Because this is not just for senior leaders or leaders of people. This is for everyone. I would say this, two thoughts. First, leadership is a choice, not a position. And so everyone can lead. You can lead your life. You lead yourself.

And you're being a model of a person who is the whole person. And you model this. You find your own why. You become inspired. That can rub off on others. And they see, wow, look at what Sharon is doing. Look at what Stephen's doing. And they're a good member.

So you're a good teammate. You're a good member of the team. And you build relationships of trust. You model this. And it starts in your home, in your community, in your neighborhood. I like to say this, that the key to becoming a trust and inspire leader is to first become a trust and inspire person, a trust and inspire parent, a trust and inspire aunt or uncle or grandparent or neighbor or friend, community member, and that is seeing potential in people, greatness in people, and communicating it to them. That doesn't require

any position. So I think just take it just to our homes alone and just think of either kids, nieces, nephews, grandkids, or just neighborhood kids, of how can I help see potential and greatness in the children around me? How can I help see it first? How can I help communicate that to them so they come to see it? How can I help maybe even develop that and maybe find ways to unleash it? And without any leadership position, I'm being a leader because I'm seeing and communicating potential, greatness, talent, and others and helping them come to see it in themselves. That doesn't require any position.

We can start in our own homes. We can start in our own communities. We can start in our own teams without having to have a position, a role. And I think that's the most impactful. I have a whole chapter of trust and inspire in any context. And I take on in particular parenting, teaching, athletic coaching to becoming a trust and inspire leader. So maybe I'll do one last thing on that point, Sharon. I would ask this, if each of our listeners would think about a person in their life who believed in them, who maybe believed in them more than they believed in themselves. It could be a family member, a friend, a neighbor, a coach,

clergy, someone who gave them a chance, gave them an opportunity. For me, it started with my dad and my mom. I was fortunate, blessed to have trust and inspire parents that believed in me, saw my potential. I had a boss that way too,, to this day, he helped me believe in myself in a way that I didn't, I lost confidence and he helped me come to believe I could do something and could succeed. And I began to gain that confidence. I look at that person with reverence to this day. I'll bet our listeners have had someone.

So I ask each person to think of who's been a trust and inspire person in your life. They may not be a formal leader. They may have been a friend, a colleague, a peer, or maybe they were a leader, or maybe they were a coach or a parent. But ask yourself with such a person, what that did to you, how it made you feel, how you maybe saw yourself differently because of their leadership in your life, their presence in your life, and how maybe you see yourself differently to this day because of that person. And so if you reflect back on that, identifying such a person, I would invite our listeners, reach out and thank them, even years later, if it might be, for being that kind of person.

And that'd be the first invitation. My second invitation would be to now pay it forward and ask this question, for whom could you become a trust and inspire person for another, just like someone was for you? And again, you don't have to be in a leadership role, a positional leadership role to do that. You could do that as a friend or a family member to literally see the potential, the greatness in another and help them come to see it in themselves. That is leadership. I love that because what we say and do matters. And it's easy to feel like you're just a cog in a giant machine and what you say and do does not matter.

But what you say and do absolutely does matter. And you can be a person who inspires others. You can be a trust and inspire person. Even if you never aspire to being in the C-suite of a Fortune 500 company, these are principles that you can apply to your life. And they're the kind of principles that have unseen ripples. You don't always know. You're encouraging people to thank people who have impacted them in that way. Sometimes those people have passed. Sometimes you've lost touch. And it is impossible to know the true impact of your words and actions on others.

It is. It is because it could be exponential, geometric, and people may not even fully be aware. I'll bet for some of our listeners that do reach out to someone, and I agree with you, some of the trust inspiring figures could have passed away. But for those that reach out to those that are still living, it may surprise when they didn't realize they had that kind of impact on our listener. And they might say, oh, I didn't realize that. Wow. And we had the same impact with our lives. And so I really do believe that, like you say, what we do matters, how we do it matters. Believing in others matters, affirming them, helping them come to believe in themselves. It was Eleanor Roosevelt that said that good leaders help people develop

trust and confidence in the leader, but the best leaders help people develop trust and confidence in themselves. Again, don't think leadership as a position. Just say the best people help other people develop trust and confidence in themselves. That is an act of leadership. And so you don't have to aspire to be a formal management leadership role. Like you were saying, you can lead as a nurse, as a teacher. You're leading through your influence. You're leading through your character.

You're leading through who you are and how you do what you do. You're leading through connecting influence. You're leading through your character. You're leading through who you are and how you do what you do. You're leading through connecting with people through caring and a sense of belonging. You're leading by connecting people to purpose, to meaning, to contribution. And if all you do is connect to another person through caring and empathy and compassion, that is extraordinary. And don't underestimate the impact of that. And so I think this is, we need this in our world. We need empathy. We need compassion. We need love and caring. We need more trust. We need to be trusted. We need to assume positive intent of others. We need to model, to trust, and to inspire. And we respond to that kind of leadership,

and others will respond to that kind of behavior from us too. And we can be the catalyst to help bring about a renaissance of trust and inspiration in our world, each of us, no matter our role. And so I'm inspired talking with you, Sharon, and I love what you're doing, including the understanding that you're bringing to different perspectives, different viewpoints. Because that is the gateway to solutions. And even if the only solution initially is understanding and respect for human beings to see the world differently, but there's dignity in that. I love that. Your book is called Trust and Inspire, How Truly Great Leaders Unleash Greatness in Others. And I just love everything you have to say. I give it my wholehearted endorsement. Thank you so much for being here today. And where can people go to find more? If they want to see more of the

resources you have available, where can people find that? Yes, you can go to trustandinspire.com. So trustandinspire.com, and the and is spelled out, A-N-D. You can buy the book from there through Amazon or Barnes & Noble, wherever your favorite retailer is online. And then also there's tools and different things you can use, videos and prompts and aids and stuff to help you on the journey to becoming a Trust Inspired person and leader. I'm also on social media, Twitter and Instagram, at Stephen M. R. Covey on Facebook and LinkedIn. And I'd love you to follow me. I'd love to see if the book's of interest to you. I think it will be because I tried to really make this not just for, like you were suggesting all throughout, not just for organizational leaders, but for really for people and for human beings as saying, this is a better way to live that will bring out the best in everyone around us.

And so I hope you feel inspired by this is my hope for our listeners. And so trustandinspire.com is probably the best place. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Delighted speaking with you. Thanks, Sharon. Wonderful to be with you as well. Thank you so much for listening to the Sharon Says So podcast. I am truly grateful for you. And I'm wondering if you could do me a quick favor. Would you be willing to follow or subscribe to this podcast or maybe leave me a rating or a review? Or if you're feeling extra generous, would you share this episode on your Instagram stories or with a friend?

All of those things help podcasters out so much. This podcast was written and researched by Sharon McMahon and Heather Jackson. It was produced by Heather Jackson, edited and mixed by our audio producer, Jenny Snyder, and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. I'll see you next time.