Here's Where It Gets Interesting - Women in White Coats with Olivia Campbell

Episode Date: August 4, 2023

Sharon is joined by Olivia Campbell, author and journalist who marries the history of medicine in the Victorian era with stories of three audacious women who overcame profound sexism, societal stigmas, and a sea of obstacles to receive higher education. When diving into her book, “Women in White Coats: How the First Women Doctors Changed the World of Medicine,” we are reminded that medicine has not always been viewed in high regard, and once upon a time, “med-school” lasted mere months. Follow these tenacious trailblazers to see how they defied the odds and paved the way to revolutionize health care. Host/Executive Producer: Sharon McMahon Guest: Olivia Campbell Audio Producer: Jenny Snyder Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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soft microfiber cushions engineered for comfort and a range of colours and finishes. Dyson OnTrack. Headphones remastered. Buy from DysonCanada.ca. With ANC on, performance may vary based on environmental conditions and usage. Accessories sold separately. Hello friends, welcome. So excited to have you joining me today. My guest is Olivia Campbell, who has written such an interesting book called Women in White Coats, How the First Women Doctors Changed the World of Medicine. And this book marries the fascination with Victorian era medicine, with history, with women's rights, with the history of education. It's just so, so interesting.

And I think you're going to get a lot out of this conversation. So let's dive in. I'm Sharon McMahon, and here's where it gets interesting. I am very excited to be speaking with Olivia Campbell today. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I read your book, Women in White Coats, how the first women doctors changed the world of medicine. And this is a topic that I just think is so interesting. First of all, we love this concept of people who are first. We love people who defy the odds.

And that is what these women were. They were out there defying the odds. And of course, the history of medicine is kind of morbidly fascinating. Plus, you know, the history nerd in me just loves reading stories like this. So this is just the perfect marrying of so many different interests. And I would imagine important to me to enter the world of medicine, the history of medicine through the eyes of these women. That's what I thought was a great entry point for me, is we see through the different eras of these women,

there's one woman who's older than the other two. And her era of medicine is kind of the old stuffy dark ages. They're still using leeches. They're still using some bloodletting and some humoral medicine. Things are going on. But as the younger two women come along, we see the new era of medicine coming. This antisepsis, white surgical things and clean. Everything is suddenly clean, right?

It's not filthy anymore. When you have anesthesia, then you can actually do surgeries. The person isn't awake. And so it becomes a much more of a science. And I love using these women to see that progression of this incredible era in the history of medicine and its advances that are being made. It's such rapid advances, but advocating for women in any profession is always my jam. And just being able to look at the history of what these women had to go through to become the first, it was shocking. It's infuriating, but it's also ultimately very inspiring.

So set the stage for people who are not already interested in the history of medicine or the history of women in medicine and i know they will be after they read your book but set the stage for us what time period are we talking about are we talking about like 1640s jamestown are we talking about the civil war like where are we in space and time here? So as I mentioned in the beginning of the book, women have always been caregivers, healthcare workers, nurses, of course. We find a few named women in history from Egypt who were definitely doctors. But as the influence of the church grew through the Middle Ages, we have women lay healers being vilified as witches so we're in a period in the book of victorian era it's the 1850s through 1870s basically is the era the book covers

and it's during this period where women are are not expected to have a profession they're not welcome in professions they're not welcome in professions. They're not welcome in educational institutions. Higher education was not expected, was not wanted. So these women are fighting to have the right to go to college, to earn qualifications, to earn licensure, to be in medical societies, to have a profession. This is a time when women are expected to stay home, be passed from a father to a husband, have babies, and that was about it. So we find that a lot of these women who were agitators were lesbians because they weren't going to be having a husband. And so they wanted to be able to make money for themselves. They had to be able to support themselves and their families sometimes. So it's interesting just to see how many lesbians there are in the history of these

movements for women to have more rights. Were they open about that? Or is it presumed based on veiled references in the historic documents? Or how do we know that about them? Most of them is kind of been confirmed by historians kind of thing. The woman that I feature heavily in the book, Sophia, she writes about kissing women in the pages that I found of her writing. And one of the other doctor's sisters, Emily, was known to be a lesbian. I feel like it wasn't as, I don't know if it wasn't as shocking at the time, or maybe like people just didn't think that's what was actually happening. Like they just thought these women were good friends and they lived together basically is what was

happening. And there really wasn't like a stigma around it where there was for gay men at the time. So I think it was really almost like a society not really understanding what was happening. We've definitely confirmed for many of these that they were in fact, living and having women partners. And you can see that phrase like a Boston marriage, you know, that happens like towards the end of the 19th century, which was referring to single adult women who live together. And it was just like, yeah, that they live together. And people who were in the know were like, mm-hmm. But other people who weren't in the know, they just accepted the explanation that they just live together.

Exactly. It was just like, yeah, that's, hey, if you're not married, a woman has to live with someone. Right. Right. Like the subtext is women can't live alone. Exactly. Women have to live with someone. Okay. So first of all, what makes the women in this book even believe the idea that they could go to medical school? Because for millennia, women having a career, as you pointed out, was not socially acceptable. Women were regarded as less intelligent, or they were regarded as unable to handle the weight of so many decisions. It would be detrimental to their health, variety of reasons why women were never able to pursue careers outside of child rearing unless they were widowed and had to

care for their children. What even makes these women have the audacity to be able to say like, you better let me into this school? I think the first elizabeth blackwell i think she could have picked any profession like i think she just wanted something she wanted to make waves somehow as a woman and i think really she was raised with the sense that why should she be any different than her brothers like why she was just as strong as them she would wrestle them and she was educated as well as them and would wrestle them and she was educated as well as them and she was like well why not like i think it was because of the challenge because people were saying no that's really why she really wanted to do it's like oh yeah just watch me

that's the vibe i get from willis but blackwell and then she applies and applies and applies all over the u.s and no one's having her course, they're all rejecting her. And finally, she applies to Geneva College in upstate New York. And the administrator is a friend of one of Elizabeth's mentors. And so he doesn't want to be the one to tell her no, he's like, Oh, I can't, you know, I don't want to ruin this friendship. So he takes it to the student body and says, Okay, we've had this woman apply to go to medical school here and the students are sure that it's a joke like that a nearby school is pranking them there's no way this could actually be occurring and so they're like oh yeah sure let her come that's fine and so a few weeks later here's an actual woman shows up at the

school so you know they're shocked and eventually they get over it. And she has a few problems along the way, but she is ultimately accepted. She's kind of seen as an older sister type person to most of the medical students. And like once they realized she wasn't going to take any guff, she wasn't going to take any of their nonsense. And she was just here to learn. And that was it. They kind of settled down and took her at her word. Her mentor was telling her and took her at her word. Her mentor was telling her at one point during her application process,

you're just gonna have to dress like a man and go to France or something and go somewhere else and find a medical school. She was like, no, that's not the point. The point is to be a woman going to medical school. This is, I don't wanna have to pretend to be a man. That's silly. That's totally besides you. I don't want to have to pretend to be a man that's silly that's totally besides you you know wouldn't even be worth it to her I'm so impressed by all that

she went through and that she kept going and kept going like through their whole lives these women are constantly faced with sexism with people telling them no with with hearing no over and over and over again sometimes their families are disowning them they don't have the support maybe they don't have that mentor in their life to get them to keep going. But they did. They kept going. And that's why I was really drawn to these women. Yeah, totally. So in your estimation, is a lot of the sort of chutzpah that is behind their desire to pursue something that had been traditionally barred from reach. Does it have a lot to do with who their parents were? Like a lot to do with how they were raised?

They received a high quality education and believed in their own intellectual capabilities? Because again, as you know, a lot of women were denied education during this time. If you learn how to read and do basic sums enough to like buy something at the market and teach your kids how to add, that was enough for many people. And then of course there were poverty issues and things, all kinds of reasons why women could not access an education. But do you see commonalities between these women of like, they all came from upper class families, their families all paid for high quality education? What if any commonalities do they have? For Elizabeth Blackwell, her father was wealthy at one point, I think when they were living in

England, they were doing okay. But as soon as they moved to America, he just never really regained his business. And then he died pretty soon after that so honestly Elizabeth Blackwell she was not accustomed to money they had to work like they had to be like having their houses a boarding house for people all the sisters had to go off and find something to do to support the family so this was a necessity and she couldn't afford to go to medical school right away she like asked people to borrow money if she could get loans from people and she just couldn't get the money together. So she had to go off and be a school teacher in the South for several years just to earn enough money before she could even think about applying to medical school. So her

story was a little bit different. Now the two women in the UK, Lizzie and Sophia, they are definitely from money. Sophia is kind of a snobby brat, if we're honest. I love her. She's my favorite, but she was definitely one who would throw a fit if her dad said no, and he would finally relent. But yes, there is that element of, well, her dad is holding the purse strings, so she's going to use what she's got to get what she wants, right? Is it wrong for her to use her feminine skills to kind of manipulate and get an education. If the end result is an education, can I really blame her for that? It's not like she was, you know, doing something that was solely for herself. She wanted to better the world for other people as well.

But yes, Lizzie, their family was well-to-do, and it was rather shocking for her to want to go and have a job. When you have a rich family,'s especially no because like if you're poor you know you go you're a domestic servant you work in a factory these types of things you would expect to have a working class job but these more wealthy women that it was their mothers their fathers were you know disown them but i think as much as money can play a role their private practices were definitely bolstered lizzie's especially that her family would send her baskets full of food from their big farm and you know these types of things whereas elizabeth blackwell when she first

had a private practice she was like had to save her coals ration out her food and her fuel because she was really lacking on the funds. So the fact that they then went on and worked together was kind of interesting to me. I can see what you're saying, especially in Britain, which has a more structured class system than early America, it would have been seen as a lower class thing to do, to get a job. Like, you mean to tell me you're going to get a job? This idea of like, that's beneath you. It's beneath you to have a job. Yes. It's going to ruin your chances of finding, you know, getting someone to become a partner for you. You're going to, you're never going to marry someone. They're not going to look twice at you. What are you doing to your future?

Basically it was the, was what they were saying. Because marrying well, there's nothing to aspire to beyond marrying well. Right? I mean, like, that was obviously, that was the case for women for most of history, is that was the ultimate aspiration, was like, ooh, she got a good husband. And by good, we mean rich.

Yeah. Y'all afraid of ghosts? How about ghost peppers? It's the moment you've been waiting for. Ha ha ha! from ghost peppers and oncho chilies. If that doesn't send a chill of anticipation down your spine, nothing will. Get your ghost pepper sandwich today at Popeyes before it ghosts you for another year. Check it from Popeyes. Interior Chinatown is an all-new series based on the best-selling novel by Charles Yu about a struggling Asian actor

who gets a bigger part than he expected when he witnesses a crime in Chinatown. Streaming November 19th only on Disney+. Visa and OpenTable are dishing up something new. Get access to primetime dining reservations by adding your Visa Infinite Privilege card to your OpenTable account. From there, you'll unlock first-come, first-served spots at select top restaurants when booking through OpenTable. Learn more at OpenTable.ca forward slash Visa Dining. I would love to hear more about what medical education was like during this Victorian era. What was it like for these women to actually attend medical school? That was one of the more shocking things that I learned is that medical school

during this era, it was only a few months. What? It was shockingly insufficient. Yes. Yeah. I mean, hopefully we go on to like, you know, work alongside someone after that, you know, work in a hospital and learn some more. You could become a teacher in a few months and you're not actually operating on anyone. A lot of male doctors would graduate without having ever attended an actual birth. And so they would go out into a birthing woman's house and this would be the first time for both of them. And they, you know, the woman's like and this would be the first time for both of them and they you know the woman's like oh my gosh what but but yes oh i want that doctor instead of this midwife who's delivered 500 babies you know like this idea that the doctor would know better but like no it's actually the

doctor's first time yep yeah they had no idea what they were doing i'm sure it was traumatizing for everyone involved i cannot imagine so in the u, yeah, there were separate schools, they would hopefully get some hands on experience of some kind before they graduated, but it was very short. And then luckily, all the women that I profiled, they went to hospitals and like, you know, did practice before they went and had their own private practices. But in in the UK almost all medical schools were attached to a hospital so they could learn directly from the cases that would come into the hospital so that was easier but it was harder to get an education that way for the women because Lizzie what she tried to do was earn a degree by being a nurse first so she went in and worked as a

trainee nurse and And then she'd be like, Oh, hey, can I take this class that they're having over here? And they're like, okay, sure, fine. And then she'd be like, well, what about that class? Can I take that class too? And then eventually the hospitals realize what she was trying to do and be like, no, no, you can't be a regular student. That's not going to happen. And they would kick her out. So she had to like hop from hospital to hospital getting what classes she could finish. And so she could kind of cobble together her degree, but they did not want her around. She was constantly being smarter, approving that she was smarter than all the other male students, you know, answering questions that they didn't know how to answer. She would be submitting

cases to medical journals and they get angry because that's for them to be doing she's this practice nurse coming in here and showing them up and they couldn't be having that so it was a mixture of the students you know complaining about her and the professors being like yeah no we can't have women students in here heaven forbid heaven forbid we let girl jeans in this room that is disturbing olivia's laughing at my how aghast i am that it took a couple of months how did you even get into medical school though olivia there wasn't like a mcat. How did how would you prove you could do it? That's the thing. Like there was no application. Like most if you were a man that wanted to do this, you just went to school, they just said, Okay, but if you're a woman, oh, no, absolutely

not. You're we're gonna need to see these references. What are you know, I think in Europe, it was it was a little stricter, of course, but in the US, yeah, it was Hey, you want to go to school? Sure. Medicine was not revered then as it was now. So it was kind of like, oh, you're too stupid to be a lawyer. I guess you can go become the doctor of the family. Right? Yes. Yes. I think people forget that, that medicine has not always been a like, oh, I hope my kids are doctors, like the tippy top of socially acceptable jobs. It used to be if you were a minister, that was the tip top of the social food chain, the town minister, maybe there'd be one person in the Presbyterian church and somebody in the Methodist church. They were the people that were

respected and doctors in many ways for a period of time were almost viewed as kind of like snake oil salesmen, charlatan type people of like, they're going to try to take your money and sell you some fraudulent herbs. You know, like it wasn't this profession where we're like, well, the doctor said it, so I'm going to do it like it is today. They were definitely pretty rough around the edges, especially when we're talking about these earlier eras from when Elizabeth Blackwell was first doing this in like the 1840s and 50s. What these women were walking into was not like, you know, a serene group of people staring at a chalkboard, right? These were kind of wild guys who were you know bundled off to medical school because they

had to do something so these women are getting yelled at and they're getting you know cat called and called horrible things just because these are some ruffians and what they did was they kind of used that to say you know expect these men to be the a medical doctor for your kid like we have to be here you need us because you don't want these guys anywhere near your family. Right. To what extent, if any, did Elizabeth Blackwell's Quaker faith

play in her desire to become a physician or her views on what women were capable of? I think it really shaped her sort of vision of equality. She never saw herself as anything but equal to her brothers and sisters. She was raised to believe that she was equal. So why was society telling her otherwise? I mean, she's such an interesting character. She didn't like that she had to buy a fancy dress to go do a speech or something. She would get her sister to come and say, hey, with her and like i have to i can't look like this so you're like she knew she had to look better but she didn't really care you know they didn't like spending money on themselves whereas

you know lizzie likes being pretty lizzie likes the finer things she likes having velvet dresses and looking nice and she likes proving that she is a feminine person in addition to being a physician because that was a big thing you know lobbed at women who wanted doctors oh that you must be a man there must be something wrong with you or rejecting your gender by wanting to do this gross profession what do you know so she didn't want to play into that lizzie wanted to show that she could be this dainty woman in addition to getting her hands dirty and being a surgeon and finding you know huge masses and to that. Lizzie wanted to show that she could be this dainty woman. In addition, she was getting her hands dirty and being a surgeon and finding, you know, huge masses and pulling them out of

people and sending them off to museums and things, you know, there's, there's a lot going on for all of them. And I really liked investigating the kind of dual natures of these women. The women's education during this time, when you think about the formation of the Seven Sisters Colleges and as we start getting into the turn of the century where gaining a college education becomes something that smart, wealthy girls ought to do. What they did with it was a different story, but there started to become a place for women to get a higher education. Certainly not at Harvard. We wouldn't want to mix anybody together. We wouldn't want men and women to trade ideas. That would be terrible, Olivia. So much of the future success of women is built on the shoulders of people like these women who were willing to do it first, who were willing

to defy the odds, women who were willing to be discriminated against, women who were willing to have people laugh at them, women who were willing to be the subject of gossip and people not understanding their motivations, who were willing to set that aside so that future generations would have the opportunities that were initially denied to them. So I would love to hear from you. In what ways do you think the women that you profile in your book and women like them changed medicine? What do you see as their biggest contributions? So what's fascinating to me was that because the US and the UK were so sexist about how far they could go in their educations, so many women went to Switzerland, they went to

France, they went to Germany, they went to mainland Europe. And that is where medicine was actually innovating. Like that's where the discoveries are being made. That's where science is really Like that's where the discoveries are being made. That's where science is really changing the nature of medicine as we know it. So these women were exposed thought was really interesting was that women doctors were among the first to do like social services type things. They pioneered like preventative medicine and prenatal medicine, the idea of antiseptic surgeries and better C sections, all these things they're bringing back from their education and their training in Europe to America. And women are reaping the rewards, right? They're also doing actual scientific research. So they get the degree and they see that men are looking in the wrong areas to see why women are ill, to see what's causing women's illness. And so they're actually doing their own research

into it and saying, okay, this is what's really causing women's illness. And so that's totally changing the course of women's medicine. Yeah, totally. And you know, that old saying of if you educate a woman, you educate a family. And so when these women were pioneering things like preventative medicine, and like the community education aspect and the prenatal care aspect, that has had ripple effects in history that you can't even measure. There's not even a way to quantify the number of people that were impacted by the types of preventative care and education that they were able to put out into the community, which then women shared with their children and their children, their children and their

children throughout history. It's hard to quantify those things because it's preventing, right? So we don't know how much it's, it's, but it really is. It's making a difference the way that there, many of these women were being community educators and the eventual women's hospital. And then Elizabeth Blackwell from her hospital, she created her own women's medical school. So she's making sure that women don't have to go through what she went through. That's the crux of the book is that these women didn't just do it for themselves. It wasn't just for the accolades and for the fame and to say, Oh, look at me, look what I did. It was, you know what, I had a horrible time. I'm going to make sure no other woman has to go through

that. And we're going to set up some women's medical schools. They wanted to go to school with the men, right? That's where all the money was. That's where all the good teachers were. That's where all the laboratories that were full of stuff were. But as they painfully realized, that wasn't going to happen. They weren't ready for that yet. So let's make schools where women can go and not get produce and mud thrown at them for just going to class. Let's not get assaulted every time we go to a group lecture. So that was a huge, huge boon for medical schools, for medical education, for women, for all the things. The fact that women were allowed to become doctors because of these women's medical schools, like we have so many more community doctors in the US that understood

women and family problems and could then go into their communities, especially Black women, Jewish women. You know, these were the women that were coming to these women's medical schools and then going back into their own communities and really improving the quality of life and the medical care that these communities were getting. these communities were getting. What was it like to research this book? We were talking before we started recording of like, you better love the subject of your book because you're going to spend three years writing it, editing it, talking about it afterwards. You better love it. So obviously you have to love it. But what is involved in actually researching people from multiple countries at a time when women's stories were not often carefully preserved the way men's were? So Elizabeth and Lizzie, there was a lot of good archival research for them. I went to archives in New York, in London, and Edinburgh.

So I had personal letters. There's repositories in New York of all Elizabeth Blackwell's letters that she wrote. So it was electrifying for me to go in and hold something that she had actually held and written. And it incredible, a great feeling. It really connected me to them and made me want to do my best for their stories and to really share their lives. But the biggest issue was Sophia. Sophia asked that after her death,

that all her papers be destroyed. This is a really common thing for women, especially if you maybe had more of a public life and you didn't want your private stuff aired out after your death. So she really wanted to control the narrative. Luckily for her, she published a lot. She wrote a lot of essays. She wrote scientific papers. Her partner was a writer. So her partner, after Sophia died, her partner took all the papers, wrote a biography of Sophia, and then destroyed the papers. So we don't have all of her papers clearly, but there are snippets pasted into this little biography of her. So they were public figures enough that there was a lot to dig through.

Lizzie's daughter wrote her biography. Elizabeth's sisters wrote a a biography like a magazine article about her while she was alive elizabeth blackwell also wrote a lot about her experience too in a little booklet so they did a great job for me you know they set the stage for me to kind of pick the pieces up but i really loved that this wasn't a straight biography it's not a straight history and it's not straight science but it's's pulling together. You might've heard of this person, you might've heard of all three of them, but you don't know how they work together and how their stories intertwined and how they had to figure out how to work together in order

to achieve this goal, to have a medical school for women in London so that all other women could benefit from that. I love that. I love thinking about generations of women that have come before me and how they did the work on my behalf in many ways. Obviously, I'm not a physician, but I can think of that in a huge variety of ways, women's suffrage and things of that nature where they did the work so we don't have to.

And we are still to this day benefiting from the doors they opened. And it makes me smile to think about like, if there's a way for them to look down on what they helped create, like, I feel like that is, it's kind of gratifying to think about, like, look at the doors that my courage opened and the ripples that my courage have had throughout time and history. I love that. I had a little picture of the three of them. It's not a photo of them all together, but it's like three portraits that appeared in an ad for a fundraiser for the hospital that they

worked on. But I had it taped up on my wall the whole time I was writing and I just want to do them justice. I'm a journalist. I'm not a historian. I'm not, you know, I'm not a traditional, like a novelist or anything. I want to tell a balanced and honest story. But as I got to know these women, I was like, oh, but I don't want to say anything bad about that. You know, it's really kind of testing my ability as a journalist to be like, I'm going to tell the straight story and I'm going to not candy coat anything. I'm not going to whitewash anybody, but it, you know, I really came to love these women for what they were. And I didn't want to maybe talk about some, you know, some of the other things, but I did my best to try and like paint them as full people too. Like I didn't want to feel like a lot of biographies sanitize and

leave out really important, uh, bad things. So I tried my best. The first thing I did when I sat down, I was like, okay, I can't write about anyone that condones slavery. Like that's the number one thing. We're not gonna praise or celebrate anyone that did that. So that's the first bar that they gotta jump over. But still, it was hard once I got to know them.

I can imagine that. I know exactly what you're talking about, where you become emotionally attached to a historic figure and you're like, I need to be honest, but I kind of don't want to be. And you can see how people of the past who had emotional connections to characters, the instinct is to lionize them and to make them seem so wonderful because of what they were able to accomplish. You don't want to do anything to diminish their accomplishments. So I understand the instinct and I also admire you for pushing through that of like, they have to be real people. We have to tell

the truth, but it doesn't have to be in a gotcha expose manner. There's a way to tell the truth and still admire them for their contributions. I love that. Exactly. Okay, wrapping things up. What do you hope that the reader takes away from this book? When they close the last page? What would be your wish for them being like, Oh, I got x out of this? Or I just loved y? What would be your hope for the reader? I hope that they understand just how difficult it was. I hope that they go into it thinking that it was much easier than it was. And I want them to know just how much they suffered necessarily, but just how hard this was and how much guts it took for these people to keep going

and kind of realize that we're still dealing with sexism in medicine you know like i i hope this makes people want to speak out and to continue the fight because i do think that in some ways these women would kind of be embarrassed by where we are right now yes there's a lot of medical students that are women now but if you go to like the leadership positions in medical institutions are there as many women women are quitting because of the sexism from peers from colleagues from patients women are still complaining as patients they're still complaining about the treatment they're getting for their illnesses or about being told that it's all on their head right we're still faced with a lot of the problems that i touch

on in this book so i hope that people will use that being infuriated on these women's behalf and to continue with that. So good. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for being here. I loved reading your book. And I loved chatting with you today. I appreciate your time, Olivia. Thank you so much for having me. This has been fantastic. You can buy Olivia Campbell's New York Times bestselling book, Women in White Coats, wherever you prefer to buy books. I always have to get my plug for bookshop.org in there, which supports independent bookstores. You can also visit ocamblewriter.com. That's Olivia Campbell's website, ocamblewriter.com. Sign up for her monthly newsletter that profiles women in science

and buy a copy of her book. This show is researched and hosted by me, Sharon McMahon. Our executive producer is Heather Jackson. Our audio producer is Jenny Snyder. And if you enjoyed this episode, would you consider leaving us a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform? That helps us so much. And we always love to see your shares and tags on social media. We'll see you again soon.