Hidden Brain - Episode 6: The Science of Fear

Episode Date: October 27, 2015

This week, for Halloween, the Hidden Brain podcast gets spooky. We explore the science of fear — traveling to a haunted house curated by a scientist to investigate what scares us, and why some people enjoy this sensation more than others.

This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. This week for Halloween, the Science of Fear. We'll talk about what scares us and why sometimes anticipating being afraid can be worse than the thing itself. Uh, I don't know if I can do this. We're going to talk about how changing a few subtle things can make us feel disoriented. Yeah, your body is basically just preparing itself to face whatever it's going to encounter around the next bend.

And how this sense of disorientation can increase your fear. Oh my god, it is bad. We'll also explore the upside of fear. Sometimes being scared can actually be a good thing. We're going to do things a little differently in this episode. We decided to recruit a very brave guinea pig. Oh my god. Oh my god.

What's that? Maggie Penn minutes one of the producers of this podcast. Maggie, welcome. Hi, Shankar. I don't sound very brave in that clip. I have to say. That's not my finest hour. I think you do sound like a guinea pig, though.

Absolutely. I sound like I'm being subjected to something, for sure. All right. You are clearly not someone who enjoys being afraid. No, I can't even watch previews for horror movies. So this might explain why over the last few days you have been a little annoyed with it. So I had this idea that it would be really fun to do an episode about the science of fear for Halloween. And you thought it would be really fun if I went and investigated for myself.

Exactly. I mean, what use is a story about fear without somebody who's actually frightened out of their wits? Yeah, I can see why that would be fun for you, but it was slightly less fun for me. All right, tell me what you found. Yeah, I drove to Pennsylvania to meet with this woman, Margie Kerr, and she's a sociologist at the University of Pittsburgh.

But she also has this sort of side gig where she curious a haunted house called scarehouse and uses it to study fear. She actually has a new book out now called Scream, chilling adventures in the science of fear and believe it or not the cover glows in the dark. Very unnerving. All right, so she's a sociologist, she runs a haunted house, and she enjoys scaring people out of their wits. Yeah, so it was funny because Margie was just not what I was expecting. She does not look like the kind of person who studies fear for living. Hi! Hi!

Nice to meet you. Come on in. She was the sweet, lovely, welcoming person, but every once in a while she would be describing something in the haunted house and would get really excited about something like this. All of the trigger treaters that we've been seeing, all of these very cute kind of cartoonish characters are being decapitated and stabbed and eaten. Oh, that is just awful Maggie. I know.

So clearly, Margie is the kind of person who loves this stuff. She loves horror movies. She's always loved creepy, crawly monsters. It's just kind of like her thing. OK, mental note to self avoid Margie Kerr on quiet streets, especially late at night. Okay, no, but seriously, she was lovely. I met with her on a Saturday afternoon. I got a tour of her lab. We had this great chat about fear and science, what makes horror movies so popular. And then I came back at night. This is the part of the tape where you're going to hear my voice get about an octave higher.

Alright, so I'm imagining that this is because you're afraid, your muscles are tensing up, your vocal cords are going to get clenched, and that's why you're going to sound like a guinea pig. Yeah, I mean, that all sounds very scientific. I think my experience was just sort of like low-grade panic attack for about 25 minutes, so... Whatever floats your boat. But you're gonna hear another voice in this tape too, and that was Margie falling behind me collecting data. And then I was also wearing this crazy lab coat with like little things stuck on my fingers and torso collecting my heart rate and something

called galvanic skin response, which is basically just how sweaty someone is getting, and they use that as a measurement for how scared you are. So I want to hear what the data was, but before that Maggie, just tell me, tell me a little bit about the house. Yeah, so the beginning of the haunted house incorporated a lot of the building's history, which was really cool. So this building used to be the Alx Club Lodge and it has this sort of faded glamour. There's this spooky 1920s music kind of coming through an old phonograph. It sounds almost underwater.

There's a party scene. It's full of people and animatronics and dolls and costumes. And one of the very creepy things about this is you're never quite sure which one you're dealing with until you're very close. Oh my god. Get up! Lots of taxidermy on the walls. And then it went from creepy to brutal with some human taxidermy. What did you just say?

Human taxidermy. They were actually stuffing human beings. Well, that looked like the plan. There were some sort of mangled bodies hanging from the ceiling, blood, gore. Yeah, this is where I sort of started to freak out. I don't know if I can do this. You can do it! I love the fact that she's encouraging you, that she's going you on.

She's very gleeful about her work. That's what I'll say. And throughout the whole house, there's this kind of creepy soundtrack of whispers, music. And then, of course, there are the actors. Oh, are you the chosen one? Well, this guy was sort of like half human and who's just getting all up in my space. Oh, I can smell it, let me see. Oh yes, let me see.

Oh, yes. Follow me. All right, that sounds really creepy, my lady. Okay, see this isn't kid stuff. I am so sorry I did this to you Maggie. Oh, well, it's okay. We're gonna bring it up with the union, but in the meantime. So yeah, there are a lot of what Margie referred to as booscares, which is basically something or someone jumping out surprising you.

Are we ready? Leaving to reactions like that. You know, that's interesting, Maggie, because when I think of scary stuff, I really divided into two kinds of things at my head, so there's the scary stuff like we just heard, where something jumps out at you and makes a scary sound. There's also the other kind of scary stuff where the fear sort of builds up really, really slowly and you know that something bad is going to happen, but you just don't know when. That's exactly right. And it's funny because the boo scares are

actually pretty light. Even though I was screaming, you can hear Margie sort of laughing at herself in the background for being startled. and most people who voluntarily go through on a house have that reaction. But what was really unnerving was the subtle stuff, the sort of distorted mirrors and darkness and fog and noise. I don't know which way I'm supposed to be going. Oh my gosh, I can really hear the panic in your voice there. Yeah, the disorientation stuff really freaked me out,

and some of the rooms were completely dark. You had to sort of feel your way through, not knowing what might be around the next corner. I actually talked to Margie about that sensation after we got out of the house. Yeah, the blackout rooms are so terrifying because we can't use anything to sort of gauge our position in space or our appropriate section is completely out of whack because we really need just something, just even the slightest little light to kind of give us an idea of what's up and what's down. And when you take that away through darkness or you know with use of fog, there's a ton of fog.

Strobe lights too, strobe lights combined with hyperventilation are the best at inducing a feeling of depersonalization or when you sort of feel like you're outside of yourself. So here's what I'm thinking, Maggie, and I'm actually thinking about something much more serious than haunted houses at this point. The whole thing that she just talked about, the idea of disorientation and triggering disorientation as a way to trigger fear, I feel like psychologists have actually applied this in all kinds of ways, some of which are actually quite unethical. If you look at the ways in which people have practiced torture, people have used exactly the same techniques of using strobe lights and loud music, darkness, cold, sounds of crying babies. And when you pipe these things in to people over extended periods of time, it actually is as traumatic as actually being beaten or abused

or being physically violated in some way. I can really imagine that because even though this was a haunted house, it was a very controlled environment, I knew I was safe the whole time. There is just something so disorienting about being in a completely dark room, or being constantly bombarded with strobe lights and sound, and the way Margie described it is basically whatever your conscious brain is saying, even if you're saying, I know I'm safe, I'm in a haunted house, no one can touch me, your sort of lizard brain kind of takes over.

And you don't care if you know you're safe. You just feel that fear. And in the context of a haunted house, sometimes ordinary things can be incredibly unnerving. So I have this awesome piece of tape I want to play for you. So this awesome piece of tape I want to play for you. So that's something they use as part of the soundtrack of the haunted house. It's creepy, right? It's totally creepy and I can totally understand why.

You're hearing the sound of the background. It's dark, you're disoriented, and now everything around you feels like it's potentially a threat. Absolutely. And the funny thing that Margie told me later about that sound, it's actually SpongeBob SquarePants audio slowed down 800 times. So there's nothing scary about the audio, but when it's slowed down and you're in that environment, you're expecting to be scared and so you are. So tell me one thing, I'm not sure if this came up in your conversation with Margie, why

is it that people pay money to show up at these haunted houses? They pay money to go and see horror movies. It's a great question. And this was actually one of the big reasons I wanted to do this story is because I feel like as someone who doesn't enjoy being scared, it's so hard for me to relate to. But obviously people like this.

There's a huge horror movie industry. People love haunted houses. And Margie actually gave me some insight. You know, people who voluntarily engaged with these experiences are benefiting. So we measured people before they went in and after they came out, and their mood improved

significantly. And we did find that there were differences in how people were processing cognitive and emotional information after they went through, suggesting that pushing someone to that higher-rouse or threat response, it is affecting how we think, especially how we think about negative things. Wow, I would not have expected that.

So going through a haunted house is really like taking a medication for anxiety. I can tell you for me, it was not like taking medication for anxiety, but apparently for these people who really are thrill seekers and enjoy that adrenaline rush, I think for those people it really does relax them. When we come out, we're not essentially thinking as much, and that's something that lots of research has shown that when you're scared, you're executive functioning, your prefrontal cortex is taking a backseat to your limbic system, so the body is prioritizing all of those mechanisms that are going to help us survive. And so what we're thinking is that for, you know, group of people, and we did find that,

you know, those who came in who were very stressed and anxious had the biggest improvements in mood ratings. And we call it a stress recalibration. So in other words, most people who go through scarehouse end up feeling better after they are done. You went through scarehouse, and in some ways you ended up feeling worse after you were done. I'm wondering if there might be a sort of self-selection

effect here, which is most people who are going to scarehouse are going there voluntarily. They have figured out over time that going to haunted houses and scary experiences makes them feel better. You on the other hand did not go voluntarily and maybe that's because you figured out that these experiences don't make you feel better afterwards. Yeah, and Margie says this is actually one of the big limitations of this study. Is there only collecting data from people who are already voluntarily showing up at scarehouse?

Was any of this even a little bit fun Maggie? You know, I hesitate to say fun, but I always knew I was safe, fundamentally, and that's kind of the line that a haunted house asks you to walk. You simultaneously know you're going to be okay, but you're losing control enough that you're able to get that thrill. And that's another awesome thing about the human mind is that we can suspend our disbelief and sort of allow ourselves to believe that we've lost this control while still knowing you know, in our deepest kind of part that we're actually safe, we're okay.

Because if people really didn't feel that they could leave or that they could leave safely. It wouldn't be fine. It would be true trauma. So here's the thing I find really fascinating, Maggie. It's very clear haunted houses are actually safe, but they feel like they're unsafe. But there are also many experiences that actually are unsafe that feel very safe. And you know, throughout this episode, Maggie, I know I've sounded like a really callous calling. But the truth is, I actually was afraid of something. It had

nothing to do with haunted houses, because pretty much no one dies in haunted houses. That's what you think. I was really afraid that you were going to be driving to Pittsburgh after a long day at work, five hours behind the wheel. And I was thinking about the statistics that say more than 30,000 Americans die in traffic crashes every year. That's what you should have been afraid about.

Yeah, that's very rational of you. But it's funny because I wasn't worried about that at all. I was totally fixated on what ghost or goblin was going to come around the next corner. You know, my theory is that it actually has something to do with evolution that our brains have been sculpted through millennia of evolution to pay attention to things that jump out from behind rocks and that's what the haunted house does, our brains have not evolved to be fearful of driving now the highway at 70 miles an hour in a box. So that makes perfect sense to me and makes me feel a little better about being completely irrational. Well hang on a second Maggie, you left me in a little bit of suspense because you told me at the start that they collected all this data on you What did Margie find?

So it took a couple of weeks actually for Margie and her colleague Greg Siegel who's a neuroscientist to analyze my data But I do have it here So let me just show this to you first. Okay, can I see you? So this is Sort of a normal person's galvanic skin response going through the hunt Okay, so it shows this wavy line sort of steadily increasing, which presumably means that they're getting more and more scared as they go through the house. Right, so here's mine. Alright.

Whoa! This is completely different. It's not, it looks like you're spiking and then you come down, then you spike again, and then you come down, and it's up and down the whole time. Yeah, it's all over the place. So you can see there are certain points where I got really, really scared. And then there were other times when I really calmed down a lot. And they said that part of this might be because I went through a slightly different experience than the one at

the haunted house where they normally collect data from. But Marke did say that they found this really unusual. It was a bit of a rollercoaster of a G.S.R. reading and when we look at this in comparison to other people's data that we have in going through, it's very different, which is interesting. Well, here's another theory, Maggie. Is it possible that because you were also there in a professional capacity and you were periodically stepping outside of the haunted house experience to make sure the audio was correct? You were checking in with Margie from time to time. Is it possible that switching into this cognitive mode effectively calmed you down from time

to time? And that's why we're seeing this up and down spike in the data. Yeah, that totally squares with the experience I had. And I also think in general, it's so comforting going through a scary experience with another person and having Margie there and being able to check in with her really helped me. What was really sweet is Margie said that she sees this all the time. It really brings strangers together to go through a haunted house together. It makes couples feel closer, it makes friends feel closer. So there's this lovely bonding quality that is kind of like the upside of this experience. This data showing that when couples go on a first date and they meet at a

very scary place, they end up feeling closer to one another than if they meet in a very boring and ordinary place Yeah, I could totally see that I actually had to apologize to Margie at one point because I held her hand All right, very professional of you Maggie. Yeah, she's a good sport about it So I assume that the fact that you made a friend Means that you're gonna forgive me for putting you through the trauma of going through a scarehouse. I don't think you're gonna get off the hook quite that easily, Junker. I think it's time that we turn the tables. I think it's your turn to get scared. What do you have in mind?

We're gonna find out right after this break. So this is still the Hidden Brain Podcast and I'm still Shankar Vedenthan, but I no longer feel like the host of this program. Maggie Penman brought me down to this basement studio at NPR. Maggie, what are we doing here? Mwah-haha. So Shankar, after the whole ordeal that you put me through, I think it's only fair for me to turn the tables and scare you, but unfortunately,

I'm not a very intimidating person. So, I've enlisted the help of my friend, Barry Gordamer. He's a senior producer at Morning Edition and also a magician and he's been on this program before. Welcome, Barry. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to intimidating you. You have long played the muscle in many experiments.

Yes, and look at that bicep. It's pretty impressive. What are we going to do, Barry? Shankar, I have with me an envelope that I'd like to give to you. Thank you, Barry. What does the envelope say? The envelope has the word prediction written in a red felt pen. Yes, and we're going to do it with a deck of cards. Okay.

What I want you to do is pick the card that has been predicted in that envelope. There's only a small problem, Barry. I don't know what card has been predicted in the envelope. Well, that's because you don't have the proper motivation. What we have to do is put your mind in the right place so you can concentrate and use your superior mental abilities.

What do you have in mind? I have here a plate and a can of whipped cream. What are you doing here Barry? What Barry? What are you doing? Well the idea is very simple. Should you fail in this task, it will be Maggie's job to hit you in the face with this whipped cream pie. Maggie you are not going to do that. Well I don't know Shankar, you heard me in that face with this whipped cream pie.

Maggie, you are not going to do that. Well, I don't know, Shankar. You heard me in that haunted house. I'm a little upset right now, so. I have to say, I feel extremely focused right now. Very good. But actually, let me help your decision process a little bit. May I have five seconds on the clock, please?

Oh, dear. That's one right there? Yes, that's the one right there. Okay, keep your finger on the card. Alright, so I picked a card, so I, Maggie, I would really appreciate it if you didn't bring the plates up. Shankar, will you open the envelope, please? Alright, I'm extracting a sheet of paper that was in the envelope, and it says Shankar

will pick the eight of hearts. Now let's see if it matches the card you picked. Maggie, stand by with a pie. Shankar, turn over the card. Oh no! It's the eight of hearts. Fummer. What?

How did I pick this card, Barry? First of all, sorry to disappoint you, Maggie. I was really looking forward to that. The reason you picked the card is you fell into my little trap. I used fear to cloud your judgment just a little bit. And you're saying that somehow shaped which card I picked? Exactly.

If I could introduce a little bit of tension into the moment with the pie and also with the deadline clock, that would inhibit your ability to make an analytical choice and force you into a snap decision that greatly increases the odds that my trick will succeed. So what I find really fascinating about this barrier is that I feel like the same thing happened to you Maggie when you were at Scarehouse, your critical thinking skills just simply

shut down. Yeah, this is exactly what Margie was telling us about. It actually makes people feel better to go through a haunted house, because they can't think about the things they've been worrying about anymore. I can't say I feel better already, but Barry, thank you for showing us that magic trick. I feel better if you were wearing that green pie. I feel better if I were eating the cream pie. Hidden Brain is produced by Karma Garkaleson and Maggie Penman, special thanks this week to

Margie Carr, Greg Siegel, and all the actors at Scarehouse and resident NPR Magician Barry Gordimer. Be sure to check us out on Facebook and Twitter. We're also on Instagram. We want to see all of your funny, spooky, nerdy Halloween costumes. Use hashtag hidden brain on your posts. I'm Shankar Vedanthan, and believe it or not, this is NPR. and believe it or not, this is NPR.