Hidden Brain - How To Make Amends

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

When James and Donovan first met, they knew little about each other, except that Donovan had stolen James' bike. Donovan got caught, and spent a month in jail. It was a story with a happy ending, as far as James was concerned. But then he found out, nearly a decade later, what happened to Donovan after his conviction. This week on the show, we look at the unexpected aftermath of a crime, and what happens when adversaries meet in conversation instead of a courtroom.Have you ever wondered whether you have beliefs that might be hidden from your conscious mind? Be sure to check out our recent series on implicit bias — you can find the first episode here. And if you like our work, please consider supporting it! See how you can help at support.hiddenbrain.org.  

This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedantam. All of us form quick impressions of the strangers we meet. We do this automatically and unconsciously, and we do this all the time. We categorize people into nice and not so nice, friendly and unhelpful. Much of the time, these quick conclusions are partly true and partly exaggerated. They are caricatures of people we barely know. Our tendency to draw quick conclusions is especially powerful when the

strangers we encounter do something to hurt us. Think about the last time someone stepped on your foot as you were leaving a crowded theatre or the time a motorist nearly hit you as you were crossing a pedestrian intersection or when someone stole something from you. At such times, we can't help but imagine how terrible this person must be when they are not stepping on our toes or being a reckless driver or being a thief. Today on the program an unusual story about two strangers who first met as adversaries.

Like all of us they came to quick conclusions about each other. But then nearly a decade later, each man had the opportunity to pull the curtain back on the other's life. How the simple act of conversation can transform the way we see each other. This week, on Hidden brain. James Carter still remembers the bike. It was a Trek 7.3 FX in blue, with Fender's a tow hitch and a bike bump and a waterbump holder. It was a great bike. It had all the gears of a standard racing bike, plus tires thick enough to withstand glass and gravel on city streets.

James loved his bike. It was his primary form of transportation after he immigrated to the United States from England. Definitely when I first moved over here that once my car license expired after the short period that it's valid internationally, I just rode a bike and took the bus to work. And so a lot of the time, if my wife was using the car then I would have to use the bicycle to get around with the kids. James lived in Harrisonburg, Virginia about two and a half hours southwest of Washington, DC. He chose the city because it was affordable, had good public schools, and low crime. When his two children were small, James ran errands with them with a trailer attached to his bike.

James ran errands with them with a trailer attached to his bike. At the time I was the sole breadwinner in the house and so you have a bike in a trailer because that's really what you can afford to do on a daily basis versus paying for gasoline instead of food. James hadn't gone to college and he discovered it was hard to get a well-paying job. He found a gig maintaining and running websites at a local school. James Madison University. And at the time my wife didn't have a job so we were living below the poverty line for several years when we first moved to the United States.

Many of James' happier stories revolve around bikes. I think probably the fondest memory is when my youngest child, Eleanor, started to ride a bicycle without what we call stabilizers. I don't know what they're called in America. Training wheels. But the training wheels, yeah. Okay, so when Eleanor had the training wheels taken off of a bicycle and we were riding around the top level of the parking deck and I have a video of her just saying

and that's what she just kept on saying over and over again as she would ride around this empty parking deck. James sometimes left his bike at work so he could get around campus. But one day, when he stepped outside his building, he couldn't find the bike. I looked down to check my bike, the bike rack, and noticed that it was gone. And I had a kryptonite lock. I've always been very, very careful about locking at my bike and making sure that you know, usually trying to put it through the wheel as well as the frame. When you saw the bike missing what went through your mind James? It was probably a feeling of panic that just dread that dropped into my heart straight away to see that part of my life just gone. And there's all sorts of emotions of concern,

of anger, of hurt. When you go through that, of why is this person doing this to me? For some people, having a bike stolen is an annoyance, a headache. For James, it was a disaster. He needed his bike for work and to take care of his family. How was he going to get to appointments around campus, run errands on the weekend? He reported the theft to campus police. And it kind of felt like they were just filling out some paperwork so that I could complete an insurance claim, which I knew there was no way that I would be able to purchase a new bike with the deductible

on my home insurance. And it was really disappointing because I knew there was no way I was going to be able to afford a new bike or replace it in any way, shape or form. James was anguished. He was scraping by and the thief had taken one of the few things that held his life together. When he got home he flipped open his laptop and decided to put his internet skills to use. I started googling how to get your stolen bike back and I came across a website that had various different tips on there

about the steps that I needed to take to try and get my bike back. And that was reporting it to the National Stolen Bike Registry, local bike shops, local used goods shops. And one of those was setting up alerts for Craig's list in the state that you're in and the surrounding states as well. The idea was to spot the thief if he posted an ad to sell the bike. So I set up a series of Google alerts for every Craigslist in Virginia, North Carolina, West Virginia, Maryland and DC. And Trek was the keyword that I searched for. Now, did I believe that I was going to get it back? I wasn't that hopeful. But several days later, one alert did go off. I received an email that said Trek 7.3 FX Blue Harrisonburg, Virginia. I thought no, surely can't be the case.

And I clicked on the link and there was my bike. It had the trailer hitch attached to the saddle, it had all of the accessories that I'd put on the bike, it was my bike without a shadow of a doubt. I'd put on the bike, it was my bike without a shadow of a doubt. James reason that he could not respond to the Craigslist ad and accuse the seller of stealing his bike. Surely, the thief would simply vanish. And so, I decided to set up a bunch of fakie melodresses and each email address had a persona attached to it because I knew that if this guy sold the bike I'd never see it again. So I had created

people and if I remember correctly it was like a housewife who was trying to get her husband to start getting back into exercising, someone who wanted to upgrade their bike, those sorts of things. And so I created various different emails with Yahoo and Google and some other platforms. So it didn't seem obviously that it was all coming from the same person. So let me just understand what you're saying. You're saying that because other people might have been trying to buy that bike as well, you in some ways wanted to flood the market with offers

that were all coming from you. So that if he picked one person to sell the bike to, odds were that person would be you. Correct. And I had a couple that I knew I was going to try and drop the price down and was offering low numbers. And then others that I was offering more favorable pricing on. And ultimately we whittled down to just this one individual that he then agreed to meet to sell the bike to.

James arranged to meet the seller, a man who called himself Donovan at a Starbucks. Then he made a phone call. I phoned up the Harrisonburg Police Department and essentially told them that I've managed to find a criminal who's stolen my bicycle and he's going to meet up with me to sell it back to me. And so it was, it was phrased more in a sense of, hey, my bike was stolen. I've managed to find it on Craigslist and I'm meeting the guy at Starbucks at a certain time today. Would you like to be a part of that to tell me get the bike back?

And they were thrilled and just needed to find an unmarked police car to come to the location. When James got to the Starbucks ahead of the meeting, he was nervous. So I was sat inside of the Starbucks waiting for him to arrive. I'd been emailing back and forth from that location. And I saw him arrive in his car with two bikes on the back of it, one of which was mine. And so I called the police to let them know that he'd arrived. And they said that they were still trying to find a unmarked car but would try and be there as soon as possible. James pondered whether he could go through with a sting on his own without the police.

He waited a bit, then called the police again. And I relayed to them that he said he was only going to stay around for a short period of time. He had other people interested in it and I knew that, you know, And I relayed to them that he said he was only going to stay around for a short period of time. He had other people interested in it. And I knew that this was my one and only chance to get the bike. It was like a scene from a movie. James Wade is options. I was considering whether I just run outside and grab the bike and go.

And all sorts of things are going through my head. I grew up in the UK. You don't have to worry about guns and knives, really, to the degree that you do in the United States. So everything that I do over here that could potentially involve a confrontation, that is my immediate thought. The driver of the car with the stolen bikes got out.

He walked toward the Starbucks. James got a good look at him. He didn't look like a gangster. He looked like a student. He didn't look threatening. He... Not what I was expecting. He was driving a clean and a nice car.

He had a nice bike rack on the back of it. And I don't know what I was expecting to arrive, but I remember thinking that, okay, this person looks like they're probably reasonably well off, they were well presented, that kind of thing. Seeing the well dressed thief and his nice car made James very angry. When you know the potential hardship

that you're gonna have to go through and someone else is stealing your property and it doesn't appear like there is a real need. If someone came to me and say, I stole your bike because I don't have enough money to feed my kids, that's a very different story to someone who has their own vehicle and looks well presented. So certainly, yes, there was immense disappointment.

Meanwhile, the cops still had not arrived. James Cooley let Donovan get to the Starbucks counter and order a drink. He didn't identify himself. But thankfully, shortly after my phone rang, and it was the police to say that they were outside in an unmarked car and they needed me to come outside and identify myself. So I walked outside and raised my hand in the air and ran it through my hair and they confirmed that they've seen me and then told me that I needed to engage the suspect in a transaction. And so I walked back into Starbucks and looked around as if I'm trying to see someone and

deliberately don't look at him, walk out to the car, look at the bike, and I literally just press the tyre on my bike to try and see what the air pressure is like. And with that, he walks out and comes over to me and asks me if I'm the person that he's been communicating with viam. And with that, I shake his hand. And this red unmarked police car comes flying into the parking lot. And two police officers get out of the vehicle. They tackle the young man and throw him to the ground. They told James to go back in the coffee shop. And so I walked back in and the barista asks me what's going on outside. And I said, well, that guy out there is getting arrested for stealing my bicycle. And so the barista then looks at me and says, hey, everyone, and picks up Don's Frappuccino and says, Don's going downtown

for stealing a bike. Would you like his Frappuccino? And so I take the Frappuccino, sit down while I watched Don being arrested for stealing my bicycle. And it was quite possibly the most perfect moment that I've ever had in my entire life of having this amazing cold Frappuccino being given to me because the person that bought it it was going to be thrown away and that person was getting arrested for stealing my bike. And so there was this kind of great moment of justice happening right here. I was reunited with my bike

and the police also found bolt cutters in the back of his car with my bike lock and helmet in there. And he was taken away to be processed whatever they did with him. Justice had been served with whipped cream on top. Or had it? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Donovan grew up in Florida and Virginia, the oldest child in a middle-class family.

We're going to use only his first name in this story for reasons that will become clear shortly. His dad was from Singapore, his mom from Pennsylvania. But yeah, they were pretty strict. They had a lot of intentions of me, you know, excelling academically. Lots of, I did feel like there was a lot of pressure growing up to become a physician or a physician assistant or something like that. Donovan attended James Madison University

in Harrisonburg, Virginia. He hoped to go to medical school. But he struggled in some of his pre-med classes and had to shift gears. He graduated with a degree in health sciences. So this was about a year after I graduated from college. I was working at a hospital as a cardiac tech. Working long shifts, probably 12 hour shifts,

three to five days a week depending on the shift. Trying to save up a lot of money to become a medical technologist with the hospital that I was currently working at. So they had this great program where you could work and earn your master's degree at this accredited program and then I was accepted. Donovan was worried about the cost of grad school. He wasn't sure he could afford it

since he'd have to cut back his work hours while attending school. When he totaled up the tuition payments and subtracted the income he would be losing, the numbers didn't add up. But then, he had a light bulb moment. I had done the calculation for the rent that I was owing at the place that I was renting, and I realized that it would be more advantageous to just buy a house actually find some tenants get some money from the tenant income.

And that would be the supplement to the work that I would have lost while I did my education. It seemed like a perfect solution. He found a house to buy and had enough money for the down payment. Or rather, he had almost enough. He was about $400 short. He felt he couldn't ask his parents for money, or borrow it from friends. He needed to get his hands on some cash. Fast. I think it just popped him to my head. What is the easiest way to get $400 quickly. I had seen some bicycles on the side of the road that I thought I could take and fix them up

and try to sell them on Craigslist. Because I was really big into biking through much of my college years, and I understood the inner workings of a bike and felt like my expertise in fixing bikes was adequate enough that I could make a profit off of this. Donovan was pretty sure the bikes had been sitting around for a while. So they were pretty nice hybrid bikes and they had just been sitting there for it was weeks

and weeks. I mean, it might have even been months, but they looked abandoned. I think they had a rusty chain that could have been replaced. Donovan had never stolen a bike before, but he rationalized that if the bikes were abandoned, he would be committing a victimless crime. But that didn't stop him from being terrified at what he was about to do.

I was absolutely afraid I was gonna get caught. I knew it was something bad to do, but I felt like I had no other choice. And this also would have been the quickest way to bring in $400. I bought a $20 set of chain cutters. And I went in the middle of the night you know observing that nobody else was around. I parked her real quickly, snipped the chains and then put them in the back of my car. I mean was your heart pounding through all of this? I mean what did it feel like to be doing this?

I think this was probably one of the highest anxiety points that I've ever experienced was committing this crime. It felt really bad when I did it. Donovan drove the bikes back to his apartment. His place was on the second floor, so he carried the bikes up the stairs one by one. And I think I didn't even look at them the rest of the night because I just wanted to deal with it in the morning, what I had done. Shortly afterwards, his mind set on making the down payment, Donovan fixed up the bikes, snapped some photos, and posted an ad on Craigslist. And then I got a response almost immediately

actually. I think it was like within a day. They said they were very interested in buying the bikes. That very interested buyer, of course, was James Carter. Donovan didn't do much to cover his tracks. He identified himself as Donovan to the persona that James set set up. When Donovan got to the Starbucks, he had to remind himself not to act like a criminal. I went into the Starbucks to grab a drink while I waited trying to act as normal and as level headed as possible. I'm doing normal things that a person would who's waiting for you know a normal transaction. And I remember I looked out the Starbucks window and I saw somebody looking at the bikes. So before I even was, my name was called at the Starbucks, I walked out the door.

And immediately I found myself shoved down to the ground, put in handcuffs, and dragged over to the police car. And then I saw that there were about five or six police cars and another 10 to 12 police just standing around. One cop asked Donovan where he'd gotten the bikes. I told him I just bought them, fixed them up, and was playing and reselling them. So I immediately, my brain just went into defense mode and I started making up a story,

trying to pretend to be innocent. And what went through your mind and your heart when you saw they were surrounded by police don't even? What goes through your mind at that point? I mean, must have been terrifying. Yeah, it was very terrifying. I think I knew that I had made a major mistake and that, you know, I think I was raised to always tell the truth.

You know, tell the truth and it'll set me free naively. So I initially made up a story, but then I recounted on it. I do remember I did tell them I took the bikes after I waved my Miranda rights. And why did you do that? Did you just feel like it was pointless or what was happening? Yeah, I actually did feel like it was pointless at that point. Because I thought to myself, oh my goodness, there's so many police here, they must have,

this is clearly a sting operation of some sort. Because how else would they know that these bikes are stolen? The police drove Donovan down to the station, snapped mug shots, booked and released him. His trial would come a few months later. But even before the trial, his life began to unravel. My mug shot had been posted on this website for local crimes and Someone at the hospital who knew me must have seen this mugshot and then reported that to my manager and my manager

proceeded to send me an email claiming that you know we have been notified that you were involved in a crime. And you will be released from your work effective immediately. And I already had at my anxiety level been really high thinking that it was a really terrible crime. And to know that it was on in public display was even more traumatic, I think, in a lot of ways. public display was even more traumatic, I think, in a lot of ways.

Soon afterwards, Donovan received another blow. He had been about to start his master's program, coming up with ways to pay the tuition, had been the driving force behind his desire to make a quick $400. Just a few days later, I got a second email from the school that was associated with the hospital stating that due to you being involved in a crime, we have decided to rescind our offer to your acceptance into our master's program.

And this is all again before I had even really been convicted. The most ironic part, after he was arrested, Donovan reviewed his finances. The crazy thing is that I, again, did a calculation and found that I had enough money for this down payment. So I ended up actually within the next couple weeks, I actually ended up buying the house that I was originally having the problem with. So that was the great irony of it all,

is that I actually did not need the money from these bicycles that I had stolen. As Donovan's trial approached, the prosecutor contacted James. And he told me that because of the value of the bicycles, which wasn't a huge amount, but it was going to be grand last night, which is a felony conviction. James was taken aback. He wanted Donovan held to account, but he didn't want him to have a felony felony conviction. James was taken aback.

He wanted Donovan held to account, but he didn't want him to have a felony conviction that would dog him for the rest of his life. And so I spoke to him a bit about how in the UK we have the rehabilitation of offenders act, where if you commit a nonviolent crime after a certain time period, that is expunge from your record. No one can find it out unless you're applying as a spy or some sort of top-level government job, it's not going to impact your ability to get a regular job. And so for me, it's important that once someone serves their time, that that's it. They've done it.

They've served their time. They made a mistake and they've served the punishment. For that to continue after either a fine or an imprisonment or whatever it is that the judge passes down seems counterproductive. So, I wanted Donovan to be able to, once this was over and done with, get a job, pay taxes, and feed back into the system, be able to vote. All of those sorts of things that get taken away with a felony conviction. And so after a while, the prosecutor contacted me again, and if I remember correctly, they talked about how the sentence should have been 600 days, and what they were going to do

was suspend it down to 30 days, and he would have to pay for the cost of his incarceration and it would be a misdemeanor. So what did you tell the prosecutor? Absolutely. Go ahead, no hesitation whatsoever. And what happened next? That was the last I heard of it. James's role in the legal process was over, but for Donovan, it was just beginning. He was convicted of petty larceny, paid a fine, and spent a month in jail. His conviction had been reduced from a felony to two misdemeanors, but that conviction was now a part of his criminal record.

After his conviction, Donovan was able to rent out the rooms in his house, but he discovered that getting a job was not easy. So I started traveling around trying to look for little jobs. Ironically, you know, trying to apply to a Starbucks, trying to apply to a fitness, different fitness areas. I think I applied to probably 20 different places over the coming year. Donovan could practically write the script for his job interviews.

No matter where he went, the conversation unfolded the same way. Everything on my resume looked great. I had really great references, but then I would be upfront went, the conversation unfolded the same way. We can't allow that. So immediately I would be denied. Donovan also realized that the conviction had consequences for his personal life. About a year after his release, his education plans timid, his employment prospects dim, Donovan went to visit his partner for the weekend. He was a park ranger at Shenandoah National Park. So I was driving on Skyline Boulevard, coming to visit him to stay for the weekend.

And I had been going down one of the hills that are a little bit faster and wasn't paying attention. This was at 8 o'clock at night when nobody else is in the park. And I get pulled over. I did tell them that I was on probation. So then they asked me who I was visiting. I said, oh, I'm visiting so and so down at the employee housing. So they said, okay, we're going to call your probation officer.

And in my head, I'm thinking, okay, they're just going to call a probation officer. This is all going to get taken care of. Nothing's going to happen. And I'm just going to go on to finish my weekend. And before I know it, I see another park ranger vehicle coming my way and then my partner steps out of the park ranger vehicle and I'm thinking, oh my gosh, they just called him.

So then he says, okay, I'm gonna drive your vehicle back to employee housing. And even then, I still did not tell him I was so ashamed of these charges. So anyways, we get back to the employee housing and he says, okay, let's go for a walk. And he says, dude, is there something that you need to tell me? I said, I said, no, there's nothing I need to tell you. So then he says, well, I know about your charges.

And so then I broke down and explained to him, yes, I'm ashamed of these. This is something that happened a year and a half ago. I talked to him about that. How did that affect your relationship going forward? This affected it in a way that I think he felt like I was not telling him everything. I was not, I was being untruthful, which I was. It was an incredibly low point in my life. I would absolutely say that I thought of ending my life because this was total

destruction of my view of how my career was going to go. James Carter knew nothing of what happened to Donovan. Donovan knew next to nothing about James. The courts and prosecutors did their work and moved on. But as I learned the details of what had happened, I couldn't help wondering if this was an example of justice being served, who exactly had it served? You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. For years after he recovered his stolen bike, James Carter remembered the incident as a moment of triumph.

It's been a story that I've told to friends, you know, at parties or to new people I've met and someone said, hey, you need to hear James's story about how he got his stolen bike bag. And I was happy to tell that story because ultimately I felt that it was the best possible outcome at the end and everyone carried on with their lives. I told James that Donovan had contacted Hidden Brain in response to a callout for stories about being haunted by past events. I told him how Donovan's arrest led to his being fired from his job and how his graduate program had rescinded his offer of admission. I told him how Donovan had tried to find work after his conviction and how employer after employer turned him down because of his criminal record. James slowly absorbed what I told him. We were talking on Zoom and he looked increasingly distraught. Yeah, I've gone quite a long time thinking that that was handled in a certain way

and you were telling me it wasn't. Yeah. So correct. Yes, that is what I'm telling you. Well, that sucks. That really does. I mean, I think I'm hearing you clearly say is that was definitely not what you had intended. No. There's heartbreaking.

Had I known that would be the case, then I've gone all of this time thinking that there was what I felt probably the best possible outcome from this case. And now I'm finding out that one of the primary things that I wanted to make sure didn't happen was what has ultimately taken place over this time period. And it's gut-wrenching. and it's gut wrenching. I'm trying to describe what it is that I'm feeling right now. And it is a immense sadness that I've gone all this time thinking that he served a short period of time and was then able to

carry on with his life. And my goal of then not being a knock on societal cost has not been met in any way, shape or form going forward. And I'm just hearing this for the first time after all his years. And now I don't feel like the penalty that he's received was appropriate for his actions. And that's a horrible feeling. I mean, are you experiencing guilt? I mean, because again, I don't think you did anything that was wrong. I mean, I don't think your actions can be questioned in any way. Well, now, I don't even know what my options would have been. What other approaches I could have taken. I feel guilty that my actions has led to that. But I'm wondering if you were in conversation with Donovan right now, what would you tell

him, James? Right now, I'd want to say I'm sorry. It's haunted him for all this time, which part of my brain is telling me that that's a really ridiculous response to have. But he would not have been haunted by this. And I can't help but feel that part of that is my responsibility. James Carter is not the only one who feels this way. At the end of legal proceedings, many victims feel that what they received was not what they needed. Some scholars have pointed to a different model of justice called restorative justice. The goal here isn't just to meet our punishment, it's to try and heal the moral wound caused

by an offense. It's a model where victims and perpetrators are not kept apart. They don't just interact through intermediaries, but meet face to face. Each party takes turns speaking about the crime and its consequences. Victims may help decide on the punishment for the person who harmed them.

They often get answers and an apology. Offenders might receive reduced sentences. Many states have passed laws permitting the use of restorative justice in some criminal cases as a way to reduce incarceration and as a more effective way of dealing with the emotional harms of both crime and punishment. A few days after I interviewed James, I invited both James and Donovan to join me for a joint interview on Zoom. They agreed.

It was the first time they were seeing each other after their encounter outside the Starbucks. James went first. He told Donovan how his family was barely scraping by when Donald installed his bike. Certainly when that bicycle was stolen, I knew that there was no way that I could afford to replace it. And it was an integral part of not just getting around campus for meetings and that sort of thing, but also that it was a significant loss to our family, even though it's, you know, essentially just two wheels in a frame.

It was far more than that. James also talked about how the theft shaped his larger feelings about his town. That was the first time that I had experienced crime in Harrisonburg. And that changed my perception of what I felt was a very, a very safe town. James, just hearing your story, it makes me feel almost even more sorrowful that you felt uncomfortable in Harrisonburg and that you even had a family, too. That's news to me and it's hard for me to hear that, you know, that bike meant so much to you emotionally and that I had memories. So I actually haven't even thought about

if it was an important bike to someone because I did think it was abandoned. Donovan told James about his precarious financial situation when he stole the bike, how he was about to start grad school and would have to cut back on his work hours. He also told James what it felt like to pull off the crime.

So after I'd taken the bike, I still felt guilty I remember the whole time, even like even going to the Starbucks to meet you. I remember thinking, oh my goodness, this is gonna solve this problem really quickly, but also like, this feels awful at the same time. I think I remember feeling feeling pretty bad.

Donovan told James how quickly his life unraveled after his arrest. You know, it was incredibly embarrassing that my mug shot was circulated around my co-workers that I really got along really well with and I was very involved in the community So then I felt like oh my goodness my face has been seen everywhere I need to get out of this town even though I had just bought a house So I was I was in a very very very dark place very dark place I mean as dark as it gets feeling like there was no feature for myself I'm wondering James if you might be able to tell Donovan what your reaction is to his account

of what happened to him after the arrest. How is that sitting with you right now? What are you hearing? What are your feelings towards Donovan? I felt a tremendous amount of sorrow and regret. I've been trying to process this and understand that actually my actions and the decisions I made to pursue charges have had some very real and very unexpected long-term impacts on yourself that have ultimately gone completely the opposite way

of every intention that I had. So as I now think back to it, should I have dropped the charges? Should I have, you know, all of this time, Donovan and I have, you know, have had no interaction whatsoever and have drawn our own conclusions about who that person is and why they did those things. But to hear the decisions that I made after getting that bike back had such a detrimental impact on someone was deeply troubling to me.

It's painful for me to hear that. And you know, listen to how you approached going about this case with the prosecutor. That is not at all the story that I heard on my side. I heard almost actually quite the opposite. I heard from my lawyer that this guy, it sounds like he would like a pretty high sentence for you. The thing that I think makes me sad is that I feel like It sounds like he would like a pretty high sentence for you. The thing that I think makes me sad is that I feel like the conversation we are having

now should have been a conversation that the two of you had nine years ago. And it seems sad to me that that conversation didn't happen. Absolutely. And also it's unfortunate because if you and I had gotten a chance to make amends, I would have even wanted to give you the bikes back in a more repaired state than you had actually had them. And then also, I would have probably wanted to pay you as some type of payment of sorry. I would have felt incredibly sorrowful to you. And it's something that I

had never even thought of before because I was told from my lawyer that you were quite the different character than what is being described to me in this interview. I'm wondering, Donovan, you know, if that opportunity had presented itself nine years ago, and in fact, there'd basically been some kind of forum where James could have been assured that his safety and the safety of his family was not in jeopardy. And you could have been assured that this was a forum in which you were not necessarily going to be, you know, tard and feathered, but it was basically a chance for the two of you to talk.

In some ways, what I'm suggesting is actually not a radical idea, because of course, in interpersonal settings, certainly if you have kids, this happens all the time. Someone does something wrong to your kid, your kid does something wrong to somebody else, and what do we do? We don't basically separate the two parties so that they don't talk to each other

for the next eight years. We actually get them together in a room and basically say, let's talk about what happened and let's each party basically express sort of what happened to them and have some some sense of closure. And I'm wondering if that opportunity had been provided to you, Donovan, at the time, what would you have said to James? Yeah, James, I would have said, I'm very sorry for, this was my situation and I have a lot of stress going on. And it was an impulsive decision that I felt nervous and anxious about even during the decision. And it was a one-off decision. I mean, I have nothing on my record before this and this is

what I was planning on doing with the money. It was just a means to an end, essentially. And I'm very, very sorry for this impact that I have on you immediately. I didn't realize that it was one of your only forms of transportation. And I didn't realize that you had a family. In my mind, you were just a man who had a bicycle. I didn't, that maybe potentially worked at JMU. That was the only idea in my head of who you were. You know, I would immediately want to make things right.

I would have wanted to make things right immediately. You know, because I did, I'm the one who did something wrong. I don't remember if you recalled on of them, but you emailed one of the accounts that I set up that evening to apologise. And you mentioned that you were trying to save up for a house, and that was the reason that you stole my bike. And at the time, I myself was struggling financially. And so it was kind of hurtful to receive that message to say that hey, I took something of yours because I wanted something and That made an impression on me as to the type of person that you are and that's what I formed

my understanding of who Donovan is and To go through the last nine years of my life, believing that that was the case, only to hear the decisions that I made have had such a negative impact on you, was deeply troubling for me. And I've spoken to countless different friends over the last few days and they all had different approaches to it somewhere. Well, that guy had everything coming to him too. That's really sad that you wanted this to be a case of someone having a fresh start, but that's not what's happened. So I've had the opportunity to talk it through to people and It's very interesting how people's opinions vary based upon their background. And I'm James.

I'm wondering if this forum had presented itself nine years ago, and you had heard Donovan basically say to you what he just said, how do you think you might have responded? I think, I think I would have certainly have liked to have relayed to Donovan the meaning that that bicycle had to me, that while it wasn't just a asset, it was also the memories had been formed with it that you could never get back with a new bicycle. So, yes, there was a financial side to it, but also there were a lot of experiences that were tied in with that bicycle.

The there was no way of getting those back. And so I think that was part of the driving force was the, yes, okay, I definitely can't afford to buy a new bike to replace it but also this is my family's bike. So I think I would have certainly wanted you to have understood the implications that it wasn't just purely a financial thing but also there was a financial thing, but also there was a deeply emotional side to losing that. And so that while it is a in the grand scheme of things, you know, a minor crime, when you experience it yourself personally, that does alter your perception of things. In previous centuries, when people clashed, they settled scores with their fists or with vigilante justice.

A great accomplishment of our modern legal system is that it limits cycles of violence. Bloody feuds that last generations are now a thing of the past. But in return for turning human disputes into orderly proceedings, courts sometimes sacrifice the emotional dimensions of crime and punishment. People who are wronged don't just want perpetrators to be punished. Many want an acknowledgement of the harms done to them. They want offenders to truly understand the harm they have caused. They want apologies that are heartfelt, not coerced.

When victims and perpetrators get to see one another as three-dimensional human beings. Instead of caricatures, it becomes easier for everyone to move on with their lives. Isn't that what justice is supposed to do? Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Bridget McCarthy, Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura Quarelle, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes, and Andrew Chadwick. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's Executive Editor. Working on this episode made us realize there is another psychological dimension to the story, which we might explore in a new episode.

Can you remember a time when you hurt someone, perhaps side-swiped another car and left without leaving a note, or took something important from another person, but were never caught or punished? Perhaps the guilt about what you did has stayed with you for many years. or took something important from another person, but were never caught or punished? Perhaps the guilt about what you did has stayed with you for many years. If you have a personal story like that, and are willing to share it with a hidden brain audience, please record a short voice memo on your phone, telling us what happened,

and what you wish you could say to the person you hurt, and email it to us at ideas at hiddenbrain.org. Use the subject line, guilty. Arun Sanghiro this week is listener and hiddenbrain supporter, Laurie Hackney. Laurie lives in Oregon and likes to listen to hiddenbrain while taking her morning walk. She writes, My all-time favorite episode of the podcast was Laughter, The Best Medicine.

While my brain learned something new from every episode I listened to, the laughter episode had me laughing throughout while learning something new about the benefits of laughter. It was a hoot to listen to. Thanks so much for sharing that, Laurie, and thanks as well for your support of the show. We truly appreciate it. If you enjoyed this episode, if stories like this make you think and reflect on your own life, please help us build more episodes like this. Join Laurie and support our work.

You can do so at support.hiddenbrain.org. That side again is support.hiddenbrain.org. I'm Shankar Vedantam. See you soon. you