Hidden Brain - Why You're Smarter Than You Think

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

From the time we are schoolchildren, we are ranked and sorted based on how smart we are. But what if our assumptions about intelligence limit our potential? This week, psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman proposes a more expansive notion of what it means to be "smart."If you like this show, be sure to check out our other work, including our recent episode about the power of subtraction.Also, check out our new podcast, My Unsung Hero! And if you'd like to support our work, you can do so at support.hiddenbrain.org. 

This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. Many of us know what it feels like to be overlooked. The school we would love to study at doesn't love us back. We get passed over for a job or a promotion. When we ask to try our hand at something, we're told no. Now sometimes rejection might be a true reflection of our abilities. We can't run fast enough to make the team or remember all the facts needed to get through medical school.

There are other times, however, when rejection is not about our limitations, it's that other people see us as limited. Our concerns over how we are judged are often most acute, most charged, when it comes to the topic of intelligence. Most of us don't just want to be smart. We want to be seen as smart. I just remember being taunted and being told things like, oh, you're too stupid to go on the fourth grade, you idiot, that sort of thing. But yeah, it things like, like, oh, you're too stupid to go on the fourth grade. You idiot. Like that, that sort of thing. Um, but yeah, it was really, it was really painful. This week on Hidden Brain, many of us have knee jaw conclusions about what intelligence

is and how it can be measured. We think we know what intelligence is. But do we really? It almost instantly seduced me into loving the science of IQ intelligence and I forgot that I was supposed to be on this vendetta. I forgot. In the first three years of his life, Scott Barry Kaufman suffered from a number of ear infections.

It made it very hard for me to process auditory input in real time. And so I was a couple milliseconds behind everyone else. I would hear things and then I would have to, in my head, cognitively process it. Like listen to it over again while everyone else was already onto the next thing. The conclusion that many people drew? Scott wasn't very bright. You know, it's very easy to look at someone and just judge them as dumb because they're slower than someone else. And that sort of processing speed issue is one that I confronted first and foremost as a kid.

Scott's teachers didn't know what to make of it. He was often very creative, but he didn't seem to be able to keep up with his peers. Things came to a head in the third grade. And I believe the official diagnosis was I was too immature to go on to fourth grade, and I remember thinking to myself, my gosh, I must be really immature if I'm too immature to go to fourth grade. That's really bad. Scott has seen the reports his teachers wrote about him when he was a kid.

They say the problem was about more than academics. They say things like he's off to the side, often socially isolated. He seems to be in his own world. I guess they've viewed all that as some form of worrying disability. That I was off on my own planet over there. He quickly discovered that when you repeat a grade, the kids around you start to look at you differently. It really amplified this feeling I already had of

that I was different. I remember even, you know, from first to third grade, I felt like a huge outsider from the other kids, but then making me repeat third grade and then having all my friends go on and they kept me there, made me like it amplified it to a very, very large degree. I remember feeling really, really low self-esteem and I remember just being very, very confused because I didn't actually feel like there was anything wrong with me. Scott has a specific memory from that additional year he spent in third grade. A group of kids formed a circle around him in the bathroom.

If you took me back to Penwin Elementary School and you're like, show me the bathroom, show me the sink that your face was pushed into the sink and the water was running, I could point you directly to it. And I just remember being taunted and being told things like, oh, you're too stupid to go on the fourth grade. You idiot. That's that sort of thing. But yeah, it was really painful. When Scott was seven and again at 11, school administrators made him take IQ tests so they could figure out next steps for him. One test stands out in his memory like a scene from a movie. I remember driving up this very windy road to get there somehow seems fitting.

Very, very long, long windy road. I remember the road I remember I was with my mom remember the building. So as I'm there and I'm taking this like cute testing session, I remember second guessing all my answers. I remember desperately wanting to show him I was smart. And that report, his observations are things like, Scott obviously wanted to do well and he, he second guess his choice a lot. My estimation is that he is very, very bright but gets in his own way because of his self-doubt. All I knew from that meeting is that I was shipped off to a whole school for kids with

learning disabilities. I was taken away from my public school, so that's all I knew. There was like, I know I took this test, I knew it was a terrifying experience, and then I know I was taken away from my public school, so that's all I knew. I knew I took this test, I knew it was a terrifying experience, and then I knew I was shipped off, taken away from all my friends. So that was pretty traumatic. From the outside, it might seem like Scott was privileged. His family had the resources for him to go to a school that would meet his needs. But as a kid, Scott felt the adults in his life was sending him a clear message. I'm really different.

Like I am, oh my, okay, we'll go even further. I'm a freak. Like I'm a freak. Like I am, like something's really wrong with me. The outcome of Scott's IQ test was the opposite of what he had secretly hoped for. His dream was that he would do so well that the psychologist would recommend he moved to a prestigious school near his Philadelphia home. It was called a Havaford school. Now, each day on his way to his new school, he passed Haviford. To Scott, his dream school might as well have been on Mars.

By the 6th grade, Scott was back in public school, but still on the special ed track. That was the year he discovered that along with kids like him who had special needs, there was another category of kids who were really special. I have a vivid memory of walking to my special ed classroom and hearing the announcement on the speaker. Um, uh, gifted kids report to room three for your gifted classes. I remember thinking of myself, wow, here I am reporting to my special ed class. Like, like, like, what, who are these people? That was one of my first introductions to the term gifted

by the way, it was through the speaker in my school, in my middle school. And it was a vivid moment for me. It really was a vivid moment, because I was like, wait a minute, wait a minute. There's a whole different class of humans. That's the direct opposite of what I am, and they're the gifted ones. And suddenly, it was like a, I'm stuck in the complete opposite world. It felt awful. One way it felt awful was that the expectation carried me around from class to class to class,

even some of the more mainstream classes I was starting to be put into in middle school. I remember being in a mainstream class and on the first day of class I saw this girl who I had such a crush on. Oh my gosh, I was way too shy to ever say anything to her, but I saw her all around. And she was at the front of the classroom. And I was walking in and I think I sat at the back and the teacher opened up the class and said,

is Scott Kaufman here? I was like, oh my gosh, like looking down, you know, Scott Kaufman here, oh you're Scott Kaufman. Can you please come up to the front of the class? Your mom says that you need, you have trouble listening to hearing things and that it really help you hear when I'm my directions in the classroom.

She sat me right next to this girl that I had a crush on. And I mean, that was more to fight. Can you imagine, everyone listening to this episode right now, think back to your 12 year old self and that happening. I mean, I was so mortified. And everyone listening to this episode right now, think back to your 12 year old self. And that happened. I mean, I was so mortified. There were more psychological tests as time passed.

Scott found himself simultaneously angry with psychologists and fascinated by them. On one occasion, his mother took him to see a therapist. I remember he was asking me what I want to be someday. What are my dreams? I remember seeing the tag named Dr. Milneck, I believe was named Dr. Psychologist. And I remember it snapped at my head, I remember telling him I want to be a psychologist.

I want to be a psychologist and be, and I still have the reports I have them all saved from like 1989 or something like that where it said, when he grows up, he wants to be an academic PhD psychologist. But here's a big kicker to this. My mom tells me that they told her that your son wants to be an academic PhD psychology, wrote that on his thing, but we think he has delusions of grandeur. In Scotts Young Mind, psychologists had all this power. They were able to peer into your head and see things no one else could see.

When they said stuff, people listened to them. The things they wrote down in their charts changed your life. They determined which school you went to, and which school you didn't go to. Scott felt psychology had shaped his life for the worse. If he could become a psychologist himself, he was sure he could do better. Sometimes he'd imagine himself giving talks about psychology to wrapped audiences. I remember taking a shower and just closing my eyes and giving a 50-minute speech on human potential.

The thing that excited me were ideas about how people are capable of so much more than they realize, how we don't really see the fullness of a human being. And this is even before Ted Talks, but I remember in my head, the recollection of it is that the kind of talk I was giving is matches exactly like what a modern day Ted Talk looks like, you know. Scott tried to become his own psychologist. If he couldn't convince psychologists that he had potential, he decided he would prove his case to himself. I became obsessed with IQ tests around that point. I remember just taking one IQ test after another, some of them I didn't do too well on and

then some of them I did really really well on and I was like, okay I'm gonna throw away those ones that said I didn't, they weren't so good. I'm gonna keep dealing with them. I remember even, I remember one IQ test result I took on the internet which said I was like, okay, I'm gonna throw away those ones that said I didn't learn so good. I'm gonna keep dealing with them. I remember even, I remember one IQ test result I took on the internet, which said I was profoundly gifted. And I took it and I printed it out and I put it on my bedroom wall. I put this IQ test result on my bedroom wall. I remember the specific corner of the wall that I put it on, displaying my IQ test results

I took from the internet. Yeah, I think I was desperate to prove to anyone, like just to show anyone, like, look, there was, there's some intelligence over here. Scott had one of the pivotal interaction with the world of psychology and IQ tests. When he was in high school, he requested access to some of the classes his friends on the gifted track were taking. He was told to go see his school psychologist to get permission. Yeah, I remember the office. It was a tiny room with file cabinets and a desk.

There's like a little small desk that he sat in and I sat right next to him. And he had my files of like my files. My worst nightmare, by the way, I was like, I really hope he doesn't look at my files and he just looks at who I am now. Scott was now 17 years old. The file on the psychologist's desk was a report with Scott's IQ test. And he's like, so look, here's the deal. And he draws on a piece of paper, it it other napkin or a piece of paper?

He drew a bell curve and a bell curve for for anyone that doesn't know what a bell curve is. You can place your someone's IQ score on this kind of bell curve that shows what proportion in the population, what percentage you are, where you are, where you stand, where do you stand on IQ comparative and also the general population or in your particular demographic. And he started in the far right and he had the label gifted there. He's like, this is the far right,

you know, like of the bell curve, about 130. And he starts moving to the left. Oh my God, he moved him to the left, he moves like 110. He's like, well this is about where average is, you know, about the Hunter mark. And he still keeps moving to the left. I feel like I'm getting agitated over here. You know, like, he's, I'm like, when's he gonna stop?

When's that pen gonna stop? Like, what are we getting at here? He stops to a score which I believe was my score when I was tested at age eight or nine. It wasn't even the one I was tested eleven and he's like you know this is this is your score he's like you're not gifted you can't you know fortunately you can't qualify for gift education but I'm here you know if you want to talk about anything else school psychology related

What was your score Scott? 89, something like the 87 something like that. I mean, that's in that's almost in bar I'm almost embarrassed because it's like It's a pretty low score not that anyone should be in barist who has that score But it's I am so resistant to having people judge me through the lens of that. That's why I don't even really tell the story anymore. I feel like I'm even taking a risk, like even saying, giving a number. I'm not that person anymore. When this happens, Scott,

do you recall I'm saying where you sat on the IQ spectrum? I mean, if 130 was gifted and 90 to 110 was normal, did he describe what 87 was? He didn't really describe it to me. No, there wasn't a real explanation. It was really like, you're not gifted. And this is the, so my hands are tied.

Like, what can I do? I understand that after you left his office, you went to the school library and you basically looked up how to read IQ tests. What did you find? I remember seeing a textbook on Intumine Intelligence and they have a chart in there that shows what different IQ bands people are capable of achieving. And I remember seeing my range that he kind of just showed me and it said it said unlikely to graduate high school. And I, you know, I always had this rebellious bone in my body though because I remember

saying, that and throwing the book across the library. By this point, Scott was actually doing well in school. He had a case to be moved to the gift attract. But in looking at the results of his IQ test from when he was in elementary school, the school psychologist was saying some important things. First, the test had picked up something innate about Scott. It didn't matter how much he'd learned or what he'd accomplished in the years afterward. The test had peered into his mind and the test had determined he was not gifted.

Not then, not now, not ever. You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. Scott Barry Kaufman desperately wanted to be seen as a smart kid. But everyone kept telling him, he was the opposite of smart. He ended up repeating third grade, was sent to a school for kids with learning differences and scored poorly on IQ tests. Scott didn't just experience these things as setbacks. He found them confusing.

He thought of himself as a smart kid with lots of potential. Why didn't the world see him that way? At one point though, when Scott was in high school, a new teacher noticed that he looked bored in the special led resource room. And she was looking at me for most of that class, and I was wondering why she kept looking at me. But she took me aside after class, and she said, look, I just had to ask,

like, what are you doing here? You know, I see you. And, oh boy, it really was like a profound moment in my life. I could remember thinking in my head, what am I doing here? Repeating her question. And then, yeah, what am I doing here? It was just the empowerment I needed. Scott felt like he had been trying for years to tell people he had potential.

Suddenly, there was someone else who could see the same thing. I felt like people thought I was crazy for thinking that I had some potential. In this moment, I was like, yeah, I don't know what I'm doing here. That's what I've been trying to tell people. Scott was allowed to leave special ed on a trial basis. The effect of someone believing in him was transformative. I actually went from like a CD student to like a straight A student like almost overnight and I took summer school classes. I joined so many things like plays, you know, I did musicals and everything.

I just, something just erupted in me at that point where all this stuff just bubbled forth and I was like, I love learning, I love everything about this and thank you for giving me that opportunity finally, school system that never gave me opportunity before. And it's almost like this one, this one teacher in this one moment, it was almost like a light bulb going off in your head, it sounds like. It wasn't like a white bulb, it was like volcano erupting, a volcano of human potential that had been dormant.

One day, he was hanging out with friends after school. And they said, hey, we had to just go to the choir room and pick up something. This was after class, after school, after school. And so I just walked with them and they were in the choir room and the choir conductor was there. And I remember just sort of like making fun of them. Like, I was like, you know, you all sound like this. And the choir conductor turned around, looked at me and said, what just happened? Like, you have talent. Like, do you want to join our choir? And so that was one of my first big things that gave me such an amazing sense of efficacy and excitement and it just

felt so good. I mean I can't tell you how good it feels to go from a long-pure near life where you are invisible. You are literally invisible and you know deep inside you that you're capable of more to a moment where suddenly you're now allowed to be discovered. It was almost like I went through nine grades where I was forbidden for anyone even to see that I had any potential. see that I had any potential. So you graduate high school and you still want to become a psychologist. You decide that you want to go to Carnegie Mellon to college in your home state. It has a strong program in cognitive psychology.

So you take the SAT, what happens? So I didn't do too hard on the SAT. I'm going to just lay it to you straight there, my friend. Huge anxiety. I'm getting anxiety thinking about that SAT session, even just thinking about it, like, how many are 20 or 25 years later? I'm anxiety.

I remember seeing the countdown of the clock on the screen, tick, tick, you got two minutes left to answer all these questions, and my brain just freezing. And I didn't do too hot on the SAT. I'm wondering at the point of which you got your SAT scores back, it seems almost as if this is deja vu. You've taken another test and the test is supposed to purportedly tell you something about your potential and how smart you are and whether you which track you can

go to, which college you can get into. And very much like what happened when you were eight and what happened when you were 11, you were having a test that basically told you, Scott Barry Kaufman, you were not destined for this track. You are destined for some other track. This is very astute of you to notice that, but that's exactly how I felt as well. I was like, again, you can't escape it. To compensate for his weak score, but also to settle scores with standardized testing, Scott came up with a plan. He decided to apply to the psychology program at Carnegie Mellon University and to focus his application essay on his pet peeve with standardized tests. He argued that these tests did not reveal

the true potential of students. And I wrote a very, very from the heart personal essay, which I still have saved, saying our notions of human potential are really inaccurate. We need broader notions that go beyond standardized metrics to understand the real achievement potential of humans. And I wrote that from a heart and I got rejected from the Cognitive Science Program at Carnegie Mellon, presumably an orange part to my lower SAT scores.

But Scott didn't give up. He came up with a new idea. What if he applied to another department at the same school? Scott's voice teacher in high school thought he could become a professional opera singer. Could he get into Carnegie Mellon via the opera program? And I was like, you know what, I can, let me think stars to them in the in the opera program at Carnegie Mellon. Maybe I can get in that way. Scott's favorite song in high school was stars from Lameez Robb. He sang it all the time, including it a performance in a senior year, a few months before his audition.

I went to the audition and I sang my heart out. Everything in that moment of like frustration, anger, like I put it into that song. And they accepted, they thought they told my parents that, I never saw you. Do you reconnness to me? And they, they thought they told my parents that they thought I was, that I could be a real good opera singer and they accepted me in a partial scholarship to Carnegie Mellon. When the other department at the university and they rejected me, so I didn't bother to tell the music department, just so you you know I've already been rejected in another part of your school. I didn't do that. Scott mentally prepared himself for the path of an opera student. But then his

second semester he signed up for an intro to psychology course. It reaffirmed how much I love, like it just, you know, when you meet something, you're like, this is me, and then you go away from it, and you come back to it, and still this is me, that's telling you something. Like that's important information. And I was like, I got to do this. He quietly transferred into the psychology department. Soon he was learning about intelligence and the science of IQ tests. His goal from the very start was to tear down the edifice of IQ testing, but he felt he had to go into the lion's den first in order to tear it down.

By the time he was 20, Scott had talked his way into a spotted Cambridge University in England, working with one of the most prominent researchers on the science of intelligence. I was so nervous and excited. I didn't know if I was going to be able to be as intelligent as I needed to be a research assistant at Cambridge University. It was almost hard for me to fathom that I would legitimately be intelligent enough to be worthy of the situation. I was like, that's even, you know, Scott, even with all your grandiose, fan-seasonary things, this is a little...

Are you serious? What are you doing, Scott? What are you doing? But Scott's mentor, Nick McIntosh, said him at ease. Nick couldn't have been more wonderful, more supportive, and he must have seen something in me. He saw the person that I was in that moment. Scott didn't tell Nick about his own experience with IQ tests. He was still ashamed. I mean, he didn't know my background. By the way, I kept all this a secret from him throughout or into all the times who worked together and everything.

You know, he didn't look at my IQs grow when I was age 11. And he, um, he accepted me to work with him. And I did some pretty, uh, pretty rigorous research with him in that six months and as an undergrad that would then form the basis of my master's thesis with him. Starting on the neck, Scott started to learn about the deep history of IQ tests, starting with Alfred Benet, a French psychologist. In 1904, Alfred Benet was charged by the French government with devising a test. The idea was to direct resources to kids who needed help in school. Alfred bin A made it very clear what he thought the test could and could not measure.

He wrote that. He said, this is not an intelligence test that I'm creating. This is a test that I've been given the task of differentiating those who would need more remediation and those who don't. We say only about the child's current needs, not his future potential. He said this, but he said this in the manual, in the testing the Benei manual, the original way, he says things like that. We do not even begin to report

what this person is capable of. not even begin to report what this person is capable of. The great tragedy of that story is that they ended up never using his tests in France. Instead, it was the Americans who fell in love with Alfred Benet's test, and they used it to measure the very thing the French psychologists had warned against. They used it to assess intelligence. It completely betrayed the spirit, the philosophy, the principles upon which Benei originally wanted to create the test, completely betrayed him. On his deathbed, he wrote an essay saying the Americans have betrayed me.

The psychologist Lewis Turman at Stanford was among those who transformed Bini's test in the United States. Instead of being used as a tool to direct resources to kids who needed help, he turned the test into a tracking tool to identify the gifted. Turman was very, very interested in giftedness and really had this idea in his head that genius is only recruited from the line of high IQ. There's a lot of people involved in these the early days of applying IQ tests. It's really the application part here we're talking about using it to sort people in America that betrayed the original

philosophy They made into multiple choice tests and gave gave it out to entire school systems gave it out to in the army gave it out They used it in lots of ways to Send back people coming in from Ellis Island, right? Like you know, you're two feeble minded to come to America. You know, never mind that a lot of these tests had verbal components to it. And you're giving people who English

is not their first language. It's mind-boggling the extent to which this test, which did have some potential for real utility, how much it was abused in the earliest days of use of those tests. Lewis Turman drew on the work of German psychologist William Stern and helped popularize the notion of something called an intelligence quotient, what we now know today as IQ. Mathematically, there's a formula that a lot of people start using in America, which I think

is indicative of the way they thought about intelligence, right? And to understand the formula, you have to understand the difference between mental age and chronological age. But they're basically saying, you could be 13. That's your chronological age in terms of your biology, in terms of your mental age can be below that or above it. So your mental age, you could be a 13-year-old

with a mental age of seven and they called you backwards. That was the term that used, your backwards if that's the case. But you're gifted if your mental age far exceeds your chronological age. So, McIntosh obviously was one of the most respected researchers in the field of intelligence, but he was also genuinely open-minded and responsive and curious and not sort of dogmatic. Can you just describe that? You in some ways were coming to him, perhaps, with an agenda that he didn't know, that your agenda was really to pull down the edifice

of intelligence and intelligence testing, and maybe he didn't know that you were a saboteur who had just arrived at Cambridge University, but described to me the way he worked and sort of the effect this had on you and the way you started thinking about the questions you were grappling with. Macintosh was a traditional British psychometrician.

I mean, that's a good traditional IQ as you get on paper and pencil. But his personality and his demeanor and everything about him just signaled a pure, pure love of science. No agenda, no agenda on Nick McIntosh's part. He wrote a textbook, The Science of IQ, which I remember reading, and it almost instantly made me a, I won't say convert, I don't know if that word quite applies, but it almost instantly seduced me into loving the science of IQ intelligence.

And I forgot that I was supposed to be on this vendetta. I forgot. At one point, Nick McIntosh asked a simple question. Assume for a moment that there is no underlying innate ability called intelligence. Some people are good at math, others are good at reading. But if that was the case, he asked, why is it teachers often noticed that the same students who do well at math

also do well at reading? I mean, if you read this book, the science of IQ by Macintosh, it's just so interesting to see all the little nuances of the field, Things like things I just didn't dawn on me could be true. I had all these like ideologies and thoughts that there's no such thing as general intelligence or that IQ doesn't matter in life. You know, and then here I am in reading in this textbook, generally didn't have to

be this way, but it's very curious that someone's score on a nonverbal IQ test could correlate so highly with someone's score on a verbal. And then he would ask questions like, what is it about vocabulary that could be in common in terms of cognitive processes, then rotating an image in the mind? What does vocabulary have in common with cognitive processes like rotating an image in the mind? If verbal skills and spatial skills were just that, skills that could be learned with practice, wasn't it odd that the kids who were good at one

were often also good at the other? Scott found himself intrigued by questions like this. My curiosity just took over, you know, and I started actually doing really traditional, serious experimental research with him when I got there to Cambridge. There was a second area when Nick McIntar started to sway Scott's pre-existing views about IQ tests.

Something that I found fascinating when I started to go to Nick McIntar's lectures. He did present data showing the correlation between IQ and lots of outcomes in life. And that was a time I did feel a little triggered based on my childhood. And I found it very, very interesting and almost a moral quandary. He presented like basically the same table I saw when I was 16 and said, f*** that in the library. He presented that in his lecture, University Cambridge showing the different IQ bands and what they tend to do in their life. Like, oh my gosh, this didn't really, this chart again. I kind of like snapped back to my childhood. And I was like, whoa, what do I do? Because this is the science, this is the data.

Scott's foray into the lion's den of IQ testing hadn't turned out the way he'd expected. When we come back, how Scott responded to his moral quandary. You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedantam. Early in his career, intelligence researcher Scott Barry Kaufman set out to tear down the edifice of IQ testing. He felt it had greatly limited his own prospects as a young person. But then he found himself convinced by much of the science behind IQ. It left him with a quandary. Should he trust his own experience with IQ tests, or should he trust the data? As he finished

his undergraduate studies and went on to get a PhD in cognitive psychology, Scott came to feel that the real question was not whether the science of IQ was wrong, but whether it was incomplete. One thing that IQ tests had not looked at was how much a person cared about what they were doing. When you go take an IQ test, it tends to be divorced entirely from the context of your own life. That's by design. They want to see how good a you at abstract reasoning, and that's thought to be the height of your own life. That's by design. They want to see how good a you at abstract reasoning.

And that's thought to be the height of intelligence. However, so much of life is not de-contextualized from our life. In fact, most of our life, we are excited about certain things. We are our attentional system is directed towards it. This engagement aspect is absolutely essential to our understanding of someone's potential. The more we engage in something we learn, and the more that we learn something,

the more it makes us want to engage in something, because once we start becoming good at something, then we start to invest more of our time and energy into it. So it's a very strong dynamic cycle. Teachers, managers, and coaches can testify to Scots Insight. Talent matters, but sometimes passion and drive matter more. Along with deep engagement, creativity is another driver of performance that is overlooked by IQ tests.

In fact, researchers have found that they can be an inverse relationship between intelligence and creativity. When you look at the neuroscience of creativity, those who have the most imaginative sort of ideas are the kind of brains that show reduction of grave volume in what's called the prefrontal cortex. So sometimes you actually find that that some of the brains that look the least intelligent are actually the most creative. That's the point I'm trying to make here. So it depends a lot on your ability sometimes put aside all the prior expertise you have. Maybe even put aside your critical thinking facilities.

And be able to really have more associative processes. I like to say it's really important to be really open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out. So that's why I think intelligence is important. I'm not saying intelligence isn't important. But it depends on the thing that you're creating. I actually published a paper showing the distinction between the arts and the sciences and it's predicted of IQ, in the extent to which IQ predicts these things. And you find IQ had a zero correlation with artistic creative achievement in life.

And why do you think it is that in artistic fields you're not seeing a connection between IQ and outcomes. What do you think is happening there if you're a painter or a poet or a musician? One important cognitive process that's associated with arts is what's called latent inhibition and it's particularly reduced in inhibition. So usually we tend to see the world and tag things as relevant or irrelevant to a problem we're working on based on our prior expectations. But people in the arts are really good at constantly seeing things with fresh eyes. They're constantly good at putting aside their prior preconceptions and trying to find meaning in the here and now.

And we've published papers and there are other papers showing that people who tend to have a reduced lean inhibition, reduced tend to score higher in the arts creative achievement domain. Also, it's correlated with openness to experience as well. The personality trait openness to experience, openness to aesthetics, openness to beauty, and also emotions. Being able to tap into the rich, rich tapestry of your emotions and not view some of your emotions as awful limits, like saying you always have to be happy all the time, but actually saying, you know, I'm actually going to take this

depression, I'm going through and use that as fodder for creativity. You've also said that IQ tests failed to capture the full range of human potential in that they focus on the explicit, the conscious, the controlled forms of thinking. What is this leave-out Scott? Absolutely. Well, one specific thing I did study in my dissertation is this idea called implicit learning, which is our ability to learn the probabilistic rule structure of the world automatically and implicitly without our level of awareness. This is deep implications. So I mean

so you talk about the theme of your show right here. We're getting to this is very very congruent. I mean think about what is required to develop social intelligence. Sometimes when people smile, they mean this. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes when people's eyes are like this sometimes they don't. You know, the world is messy. And I, from a cognitive scientist lens, I developed tasks to measure differences in people's ability to learn about the probabilistic structure of something.

And we have found that's virtually uncorrelated, wholly uncorrelated with IQ. The people that can go into an IQ testing, one of our sessions, be like, A, C, B, D, and get like, strongly off the charts IQ, oftentimes the ones that are not learning implicitly. Solving puzzles involves logic and analysis, but logic cannot help you read someone's expression in a crowded room. That requires cognitive skills that are often learned unconsciously. Scott is not merely saying that the cognitive ability that IQ tests measure is different

than the abilities that allow us to apprehend unwritten patterns and relationships in the real world. He's saying that sometimes these different cognitive abilities might come in the expense of each other. It's like a sea-sol, sometimes the thing on one side causing you challenges brings you up in another way. He sees this especially among so-called two e-kits. Two e stands for twice exceptional where you have a profound, extraordinary difficulty or challenge in

your life, and you also have a profound gift or talent or ability. But there are people that really do have profound difficulties and profound gifts and towns in one body. And in some ways, it complicates the notion of how we think about people, right? We think about smart people as always being smart, dull people always being dull. And what you're doing partly with sort of this two-way label is basically saying, no, people are more complicated than that.

Absolutely. I saw that just going only back to the sixth grade Scott who heard the announcement on the, you know, the speaker, gifted kids go to their room. I sensed in my gut there's something much more complicated about humans than the way that we're dividing and sorting people here. And I still believe it. And I believe it in so many ways, you know, like hidden ways that we don't explicitly acknowledge in our society, old systems, especially in an education system, but you also see it in organizations and hiring practices. It goes deep this stuff.

A lot of these assumptions we have about human potential that are really outdated and just wrong. So the story that has stuck with me, I think, through this whole episode is the one that you told me about the school psychologist who looked at your IQ test and showed you where you fell on the belt curve of intelligence and started with a gifted and moved the pencil over and over and over to the left and then to the left and then more to the left. That moment was really crushing for you in all kinds of ways. But some years ago you had an extraordinary experience.

You were walking in a park in Philadelphia and you came by an elderly man sitting on a park bench. Set the scene for me and tell me that story, Scott. I was really happy. I was pumped. I just had a nice weightlifting session and I'm running and I crossed a man on a bench and I feel something in my gut like dread. Like why am I feeling dread? I don't know. I look back at the person and then it hits me. That's the school psychologist

from high school who drew the bell curve on the napkin and basically Inspired me to go into this field not in the way that he would have ever thought but Like that's him. He's older, but I recognize him and It did create a bit of a dilemma in me, which is like what do I do? I approach him. Do I say hi? Do I, what, do I sock him in the face? Ha, ha, ha, ha, what do I do? And with a lot of trepidation and my heart beating very fast, I approached him on the park bench and I said,

hey, do you mind if I, if I just sit next to you for a second, I will tell you something. And he's like, sure no problem, no problem. And I sat down and I said, Hey, I was a student of yours and you changed my life. And he said, Oh, yeah, by in a sort of screw, you sort of way probably. And you said that. And I laughed. and I said, well, you know, you just, you did. I did, you know, I'm a psychologist now. And I didn't feel the need to yell at him or tell him the whole story.

But he said something very interesting to me when I told him I'm a psychologist now. He said, oh, he's like, well, that's interesting. I'm actually tutoring a kid right now who really low IQ, really low IQ is really not the sharpest tool in the shed. My blood boiled a bit and I, I called myself down. I just said, maybe you can just keep looking deeper at beyond the IQ and to maybe think about him in a bit of a broader way and where you

look at the totality of him, not a particular slice of him when you're making that kind of judgment call. And he agreed. I mean, he agreed to his credit. He's like, that's a good point. And I just kind of realized in that moment, like, you know what, like he's not evil, he's human. He was probably doing the best that he could at the time in what he knew and how he was

trained. And even now, he was doing the best he can to try to help this kid. And the best I could do is not yell at him or tell him my story, but to just tell him about the field of Twice exceptional and to tell him about, well maybe here's some resources. So I offered him some resources to help this kid based on the research. I've done. I was someone told him that and when I was in 11th grade, maybe he would have treated me differently. But then again, if he treated me differently, maybe I wouldn't have been in the position to ever

even be that park bench to tell him that. So it's all very weird. I don't know, wife sometimes, you just gotta go with it. Psychologist Scott Barry Kaufman studies the science of human potential. He is the author of Ungifted, Intelligence Redefined, and Transcend, the new science of self-actualization. Scott, thank you for joining me today on Hidden Brain. Thank you, this is wonderful. Hidden Brain is produced by Hidden Brain Media. Our audio production team includes Bridget McCarthy, Annie Murphy-Paul, Kristen Wong, Laura

Quarelle, Ryan Katz, Autumn Barnes and Andrew Chadwick. Tara Boyle is our executive producer. I'm Hidden Brain's executive editor. Our unsung heroes today are Jay and Jessica Shear. Jay is a novelist and runs a nonprofit production company called the Reclimation Society. Jessica is an editor of nonfiction and fiction books. We recently had some questions about the publishing industry, and Jay and Jessica graciously made time to chat and share their insights.

Thank you Jay and Jessica. If you enjoy Hidden Brain and have found the ideas we explored to be useful in your own life, please consider supporting our work. You can do so at support.hiddenbrain.org. Again, that's support.hiddenbrain.org. I'm Shankar Vedantan. See you soon. Ben Şanker Vedatım. Siyussun.