Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: An Interview with "Anna" PART 1 - Friend of the Daybell family and member of AVOW

Episode Date: February 25, 2024

ANNA PART ONE: As we prepare for Chad Daybell’s trial —scheduled for April, 2024– we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For those new to this twisted case about doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, and to better understand future episodes, we recommend our full Beyond the Veil season, but if you don't have that time, we have one episode summarizing everything you need to know. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, it’s our May 2nd, 2023 episode titled: "Beyond the Veil: The prequel -Chad daybell and Lori Vallow - the background story you’ve never heard." Lauren wrote and produced the episode so HTC listeners can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour.   Now, back to THIS episode. "Anna" was a friend of the Chad and Tammy Daybell family, was friends with Julie Rowe, and was a long time member of the Doomsday prepper website AVOW. This interview was originally recorded in November of 2021. THIS IS PART TWO. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the Lori Vallow trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yes. I know Garth and Emma. Okay. Do you know Nancy and Mike James? Yes, I know them. And you know Christopher Parrott? Yeah. I was a member of a vow for, I would say, like, almost eight years.

But Anna and I have been talking in depth. for quite a while now and hidden true crime is honored that you would feel safe enough and comfortable enough to share your story with us and what you know when it comes to the chad and lorry daybell case so thank you hidden a true crime podcast a forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. As we prepare for Chad Daybell's trial scheduled for April 2024, we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For many of our listeners, they understand the Lori Vallow Chad Daybill case. But for those new to this twisted case about

doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, to better understand future episodes, I really recommend our entire Beyond the Vale season. But hey, I also, also realize we don't all have time to listen to an entire season. So I took care of that for you, summarizing everything in a single episode. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on the Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow case, it is our May 2nd, 2023 podcast episode titled Beyond the Veil, the prequel, Chad Daybel and Lori Valo, the background story you've never heard. You can also find this on our YouTube channel if you want the visuals. I wrote and produced this episode for that very reason so everyone can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an

hour. For any of your friends who need the basics so that they two can follow along into the next months and into Chad's trial, send them that May 2nd 2023 episode to get them started. Hello, I am with Anna. And that's, that's all we'll say. Anna is not going to be on video today. for good reason she wants to remain anonymous or a little bit anonymous and i understand that but but anna and i have been talking um in depth for quite a while now and hidden true crime is honored that you would feel safe enough and comfortable enough to share your story with us and what you know when it comes to the chad and lorry dabel case so thank you Anna for being here today first off Anna, I just want to set the stage by asking you about who you know.

You're not related to anyone, correct? Right. But let's talk about who you know. Do you know Julie Roe? Yes, I do. Do you know Chad Daybell? Yes. Do you know Chad Daybell's children?

Yes, not all of them. But we know who do you know? I know Garth and Emma. Okay. Do you know Nancy and Mike James? Yes, I know them. Who else do you know? There were quite a few more people and now I'm, that sets the stage.

You know a lot of people, but is there anyone else right now that I'm missing? I'm sure it'll come up later in the interview too. Yeah, I'm, you know, I know people tangentially to. them like I know Tammy. Let's see. I think that's good. We'll get into it. Yes.

In other words, for someone that isn't directly related to the case in the sense of all the documents and everything, you know a lot of the players and quite personally. Like you've been, when we talk about knowing, we're talking about being, being at their house with them having close relationships with these people. I just want to explain that too. First off, Anna, with that being said, tell us how you got in.

Oh, and you know Christopher Parrott. Yeah. I was a member of a vow for, I would say, like, almost eight years. Eight years on a vow. So not even six months. Eight years. Right. On a vow. Wow. I don't even think I knew in all our conversations that it was eight years. So let's talk about that. Why did you decide to do this interview today with hidden true crime? At first, I was like, no way, I'm not going to do an interview. I have sent you an email with a lot of information. And then I started thinking about it. And, you know, just kind of pondering it and praying about it. I felt like, you know, there are a lot of people, I believe, that are still like of this mindset that believe some of these ideas that I believe got Chad and Lori down the path where they're

on, Julie Rose, some of those people. And I just think that, you know, nobody's immune, right? None of us are immune from being led and deceived. And so I just want to, like if I could help at least one person. and just kind of think, oh, my gosh, this stuff is not right. This isn't good. This isn't true. Then, you know, I feel like that's worth it.

Thank you for sharing that. And I have the same goal today. So thank you for explaining that. And that's what we'll do here today. Where did you want to start? I know that you might have a place. And if not, I'll suggest. You tell me.

You know, I think I'll start with a vow. We had, my husband and I, had heard of a vow. I won't go into the details about how we heard of it. But we somebody had told us about it and we'd never heard of it. So I thought, okay, I'm going to get online. I'm just going to look this up, see if this is something that is of interest. And we talked about it and we thought, you know, it was like, I think at the time about a $40 a year subscription. And, um, that might not, you know, mean a lot to like right now, it's not that big a deal. But at the time, we, we had a lot of kids.

And, you know, 40 bucks is 40 bucks when you got to, you know, buy shoes and, you know, buy groceries. But as we looked at it, we thought, you know, there's some interest here because we had always had food storage, right? Because, you know, President Benson said, get a year supply of food, you know. And so we did. and profits after that had encouraged that. And so we did.

And actually, I had started, like, I remember one day I was thinking, oh my gosh, I've got all these buckets of wheat and I've got all this stuff. And if I don't start using it, that'll be money wasted. So I just began doing like grinding wheat, making bread, doing all that kind of stuff and just incorporating it slowly into our diet till, you know, we pretty, we incorporated it almost all the basics pretty well. And so we felt that was important. So when we got on a vow and they did a lot about preparedness and food storage and all

that. So it was like kind of a natural fit, right? And so we would get on. We didn't get on that much. But I know that as I got on and I would read the post because they just come up in order of like chronological order. And I would hear people talking about dreams and visions and people talking about somebody named Sarah.

They kept saying Sarah this and Sarah that. I'm like, who is this Sarah? You know? And so as we can, I continued, I realized that Sarah was Sarah Monet and that she had written a book called There Is No Death. And so we ordered that and read it and, you know, short book. But it was just really interesting about a near death experience she had when she tried to commit suicide.

And so we just, and there were some. others and I ordered several other books and I would always, actually with the near death thing, like years and years ago in college, I had been exposed to some of those books and always found them very fascinating, right? And so, so people started talking about their dreams and visions. And I was like, wow, that is so cool. You know, I'm not a dreamer. You know, I don't have dreams and visions, but these people are. And then there was one specific one name, fellow dreamer, because everybody went by not their real name. Some people did.

A few people went by their actual real names, but a lot of people went by different names. You know, they just make up a name or a combination of their real name or something like that. So fellow dreamer had posted all these near-death experiences, dreams that she had. And then Chad DeVell was on there. And then, and I don't know. I think this is maybe about 2013 or so, maybe 14. And Chad Davel said that he was publishing a book by fellow dreamer. And that was Julie Roe.

And he said when it was going to be out. And he said he was going to put several chapters up on a vow. And so like he put on, I think chapter one, chapter two. there was another later chapter, maybe chapter 10, I can't remember. And so I read those and those were probably the very best chapters, right? But it kind of like, oh my gosh, I want to read this book, right? I want to, I want to read this. So I told my husband that I wanted it for a specific holiday that was coming up.

And he's like, yeah, okay, great. Okay, I'll order that for you. So it came and unbeknownst to me, my husband actually read the whole thing and then gave it to me. But I read it and I was like really intrigued by it because it was like so many of the dreams that people had put on a vow. It just really coincided with those. And what I thought was really interesting was that she was pretty clear. She said that the day would come.

She was showing all this in her near death experience that the day would come. And I can't remember it exactly now. But I think it was that the church would have like, they'd have a fireside or something like that, a churchwide. It was churchwide. And that if you had your supply of food, then you would be directed to go to that you'd be, all your food storage would be picked up in these white trucks. And that you would go to the specific place and you would be transported. ported to these camps in the mountains. And, you know, that's that you would leave behind basically the world.

And kind of your ticket to get in would be that you had a year supply of food. And I was like, oh, wow, that's so great because we have our year supply. And, you know, and then she talked about all the devastation and all the bad stuff that was going to happen. But the people in the camps would be pretty protected, right? that they would be spared from all of this. And so anyway, so that's kind of how we got started with a vow. And that's kind of how we found out about Julie Roe.

And I guess I could say a little bit more. So I said that my husband had read it. And my husband with his work, he does peer-reviewed things. So he found all these typos, right? and all these errors. And he was like, oh, my gosh. So he shot off an email to the publisher and said, you know, before you publish this for your second printing or whatever, you might want to fix these mistakes. And when you say publisher, you're referring to Chad Daybell?

Yes, Chad Daybell. Yep. And so he just set that off to Chad and just said, you want to fix this stuff. And then Chad responded and said, oh, thanks a lot. I'll fix that. And would you be interested in helping edit a second book? Because and also would you give a review? So Chad asked your husband to help edit the next book.

Right. And he asked him also to go on Amazon and give a review. So my husband did that. he gave a shining review. And then Chad did, did ask him to help edit the second book. And so he sent him the stuff and, you know, and my husband went through everything. And he helped edit it. And I know that there were other people he had asked to edit it also, but my husband was one of them.

That's, that's interesting. And so very quickly, you guys. became not just a vow members but involved in the publishing of Julie row and Chad Daybell's books. Right. Yep. And then let's see. So he actually, I will go on to say that he actually asked my husband to help edit Hector Sosa's book. And my husband said yes.

And then my husband asked me, now this is down the road. Okay. So my husband asked me, he said, would you be interested? in helping read this and edit it. And I said, sure. And so I started reading it. And like editing is really different than reading for pleasure, right? You're looking at every word, certain structure, typos, grammatical airs, all that.

And I kind of did that at the very first. But then I was like, oh, my gosh, I want to find out what's going to happen next. And so I kind of abandoned that. And so I said, well, this is what I have for the beginning. But anyway, that's kind of an aside. But getting back to Julie Rose. So my husband went back and forth. And one day he said to me, he said, you know, he said, Chad Daybell is Julie Rose editor or her publisher.

And he said, I know his parents. And I said, oh, really? My husband grew up in Springville. And Jack, Davelle had been his, like, in young men's and like an advisor or something. So he knew him. So he grew up in the congregation with Sheila and Jack Deval and Chad's parents. Yeah, Jack DeVille was Chad's dad. And he said, I know his dad.

And he said, I don't know Chad that well because my husband's a different age than Chad. But he knew Jack, Davel. And I think he knew his, you know, Sheila, but not as well, right? What did your husband say about Chad's parents or upbringing? or did he say anything just that they were what type of people did he say the day bells were? Yeah. So he said that they were a really nice family. And, you know, he, he doesn't, you know, he didn't know them super, super well.

But, you know, as far as he knew, they were a really nice family. And like he said, that he didn't know Chad as well. So what happened was. Um, my husband, uh, so we were out in, so we were out in Utah for a vacation, right? And, um, the place that we were staying at, um, they had a ward directory on their fridge. And I happened just to, I just went over there and I don't know, for some reason I decided to look on the word directory to see if there was anybody like, maybe with the same last name as ours, right? And so I just was kind of going down the list. And I was like, wow, Chad Daybill, Chad and Tammy Daybill are in this ward. And I thought, wow, that's really interesting because Springville has like 10 stakes.

So it has at least 100 wards, right? And the fact that where we were staying was in the same ward. So I told my husband, he said, oh, wow. That's interesting. So the next day we went to church and my husband leaned over to me and said, see that guy helping to pass the sacrament. He said, that looks like a younger version of Jack Daybell. And he said, I bet you that's his son, Chad. And so I'm like, okay.

And so afterwards, my husband went up to him and he started talking. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls, and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VP

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And we just sat in their living room and just visited with Chad and Tammy. And I think some of the kids. But it was just my husband and I. And so we visited with them and got to know them. And actually, after we left, I had emailed, I emailed Chad, I think. And I said, hey, the next time we're in town, we'd like to invite. invite you guys over for a family home evening with your whole family. And they're like, that's so great. And so we let them know. And they came over and Tammy made cupcakes. And we all their kids and all

of our kids that, you know, our kids that were still at home, so to speak, right? Not our married, grown kids, but the other ones. And we just had this great time. We played these games. And we just had so much fun. But the interesting thing, was, what's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns.

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With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. I got to tell you that when I asked them to do the family home evening, I did not ask them to prepare anything, right? I had kind of planned on just kind of almost like winging it. I wasn't really sure where I was going to go. Well, I just clarify for listeners, this is when you invited them to your house, right? Right.

And let me explain this to or you help me explain when you invite someone over for a family night, it might just be an activity or what is a, well, tell us what is like a family night when you're saying invite you over for a family night. Okay, great. Great question, right. So in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, every Monday, kind of, you can adjust that is set aside for what they call family night or family home evening where you just get together with your family and, you know, it can be really formal and structured or informal. You can like have

a prayer and a song and a lesson and treats and play games, you know, just whatever. Or you could just have an activity, you know, just do something fun like play games. So, you know, I was probably thinking more less structured and just more informal. So, so anyway, they, um, they, came over and they came in and Chad had this box with him and it was then I I just welcomed everybody and I just said you know we invited the day bells over for family night and then Chad just got up and he just you know just kind of took over kind of like okay thanks for inviting us and I just want to tell a little bit about myself and how all my dreams and vision started and you know and then This is at your house.

This is at your house. Like he's your guest and he's taking over. Right. Right. Okay, go ahead. Keep going. And so he just started, he just kind of started off with his story of the, going to Flaming Gorge and jumping off the cliff and, you know,

how his veil was torn and, you know, that kind of thing. And I don't know, some of you, some of your, your listeners might be aware of that or know about that. Yes. And then like. experience. Right. His supposed near death experience. Yeah, his first, you know, according to him, his first near death experience. And then, you know, then he kind of went on about his other ones, like at La Jolla, California, where the wave almost killed him. And same thing happened, only it was

more in depth. And then, I can't remember, you know, but we, you know, I had some questions for him because he had, so every time my husband would. like quote edit, he would send us a box of books. And so I was like, oh, I'll read these, you know. And so I had read pretty much everything that he had sent. And so I knew. So I asked him some questions about some of the other things in his books. Anyway, so it was just really interesting.

We have a lot of fun with their family and had a great time. And Tammy was awesome. She was really nice. And I didn't know a lot about like the bankruptcy. I don't know if your listeners are aware of that, but they declared bankruptcy. Yeah, explain that. Yeah. So I don't know all the details and maybe you can fill in what I don't know.

But I think it was around 2006, 2008, that their publishing business that Chad really, really wanted to be successful, just basically totally went under. And they were in a lot of debt. I think it might have been like several hundred thousand dollars. And so they declared bankruptcy. And, you know, because it wasn't successful, people weren't buying his books to the, you know, in like he wanted. And I think from what I've heard from others that that was a real sore spot for him,

that he wasn't like, people weren't buying his books like Gerald Lund's books, right? And Gerald Lund for our listeners is another LDS author. who was quite successful with his work in the glory series. Right. And Chad was pretty, I think it was kind of miffed that his weren't as successful. And I think he put a lot of money poured a lot into it. And it just didn't pan out like he'd wanted.

And so what was interesting was when we went to church, I remember one time we were waiting outside of a classroom. And Tammy was in the hallway. And she was, we're all leaned up against wall so people could walk by. And I remember looking over and just kind of try not to stare, but looking over at Tammy. And it just kind of breaks my heart now. But her shoes were like really worn. And she would probably had on the best that she had.

Her clothes weren't the greatest. Her shoes were really worn and scuffs, you know. And you know, you get to the point on your shoes where. you're like, I'm not going to wear these to church anymore. I'm going to get rid of them. But I don't think that that was an option for her because of their situation. And she basically was the breadwinner. And she worked full time.

And I don't think it was because she wanted to necessarily have this great career. She wanted probably to be a stay-at-home mom, like a lot of women of that era, not necessarily so much now. But I think she probably did to raise her kids, right? Right. So the LDS culture to explain there's a big emphasis on the man being the breadwinner. winner so that the woman can stay home and nurture her children and Tammy had five children. You know, I can hardly keep up with one. So I think you're right. And I just wanted to explain that

a little bit more. It's not that some women are breadwinners in homes and that's normal now. It's the culture they came from and what I'm sure she wanted and what she was raised to want. Right. Yeah. So, so yeah, so I remember thinking, oh, wow. And at the time I didn't know there was a bankruptcy, but I just kind of my heart went out to her because, you know, I think she was wearing the best that she had. But that, but get to get back. So what happened was, so we, I'm trying to say this. So we actually had relocated to a different part of the country. and my husband wanted, so Julie Roe's books really took off, right, became super, super successful. And I think that everybody was surprised by it.

I think Chad was surprised by it. But it was great, right, financially for him as a publisher. And so Julie Roe began to do what I call the book tour type of deal, where she would travel all around the United States and she would meet with people in their homes or at different places, wherever they could find a venue. And she would kind of tell her story. And she started doing this. She went to like California and up to Rexburg and she was in Springville.

And she went out to the East Coast. She went down to Tennessee in Washington State. She was just all over. And my husband really wanted to invite her. out to where we were living. And he said, this would be so great. And I was kind of like, well, you know, it's, and we had to pay for everything, by the way. And so if you wanted Julie to come out, you had to pay her way for her to speak in other words.

Right. You had to pay for her everything, you know, her flight, her hotel room or her accommodations, everything. And so I was thinking, wow, I could take that $300 and fly back. and visit my kids, right? And so I'm like, well, I said, you know, basically do whatever you want. If you really think we should invite her, he goes, yeah, I'm going to. So he did. And then it was advertised.

And I can't remember how I think on a bow, it was advertised. It was advertised that, hey, she's going to be here at this place on these dates. And so she came. You know, we paid for a flight. And at the time, she was living, I think, in Kansas. And so we paid for her flight. And she came out. And we took her around to see the sites.

And she stayed with us in our home. And people came from all over several states. I would say three, four, five states. They came from all over. And they came and listened to her. And so, you know, we got to know her. We talked to her for hours on. on end. I learned all kinds of things about her or family. And I learned things about her family of origin.

I learned that her parents had gotten a divorce. Her mother had been unfaithful to her father. I think it really affected her. And I learned that they had a large family and her father was in the military. And they kind of went without, you know. And by the way, I have never read her autobiography. So I don't know what's in there. I'm just going by what she told me. I've read her autobiography and I would say it's similar to what you're sharing. There are a couple things, but yeah, it would, it would be parallel. Okay. So one of the things she wanted, and I thought it was kind of strange, but she wanted bodyguards. Okay. So she told my husband, I have to have this number of bodyguards. And in order, in order to be invited out with your

invitation, she's telling your husband this. Is that it? Yeah. She's like, this is what I require. Kind of like celebrities, I require a dozen roses, you know, in my dressing room and blah, blah. She didn't say the dozen roses, but you know how celebrities will require certain things, right? Well, so she said I require bodyguards.

And she had a number and I think it was three or four. And so we, my husband asked several people that we knew if they were. if they would do this. And, you know, at the time I thought it was just kind of, I kind of thought, oh, boy, you know, this is kind of hokey. Because I'm like, who's Julie Roe, right? You know, like when you think of bodyguards, you think of the president or you think of celebrities, but really, are you serious?

You need bodyguards. This is probably a fault of mine, but in my graduate program, I won't go into what it was, but it was in the psychological sciences or social sciences, right? therapy type thing social work type and I would in my we would do like we had practicum so we would do therapy so I did a lot of therapy in in my program and you ask people all kinds of really personal questions right and so I would I do that I ask people personal questions and I think for some people that's uncomfortable for them I'm not like super bad but I will if I feel like I need to know something better then I will ask them questions

And in the calling that I have, now I have to do that. I have to ask people, you know, personal questions. So, so I said to her when she was there, I said, I said, you know, why do you need bodyguards? And she's like, well, I've been threatened. And I said, oh, really? I said, like what? Like, how have you been threatened? And I tried to ask it in a way that I wasn't like doubting her, just like kind of curiosity.

And she said, well, she said, my brother said that if. I ever showed up around there that I would regret it. And I thought, well, you know, in my mind, I'm thinking, that's it. That's the best you can give me, is that your brother said that. To me, that's not a threat on your life. And that's not something that you would need a bodyguard for. But as I got to know her, I kind of got the impression that it was like, let's say that somebody asked you to be somebody's bodyguard, you would feel like flattered, right?

And I felt like it was a way just to manipulate and flatter people and get people to think, wow, she's really amazing because she needs bodyguards. And I've been asked to be one of her bodyguards, you know, and just like, oh, she's like, she's willing to come out here and talk to us and be in our home. And it's just like, it's kind of this manipulation of people that, you know, you begin to think, well, I'm really special, right? And I want to go kind of a little backtrack a little bit. I want to say that, you know, when in her book, when she said that like all the people like that were had their your supply would be invited to go to the camps. I have to say that it made me feel like, oh, wow, I'm special, right? I'm going to, I'm going to go to these camps and I'm special because I have my your supply.

And I was thinking about people in my ward. and I was like, I don't know hardly anybody who has ear supply. And I'm like, I know this special information that they don't know about. And I'm special because I know it. And when this happens, I'm not going to be taken by, you know, I'm not going to be, you know, taken aback. It's not going to be a surprise to me. And I think that I felt, I think it was a pride thing that I was special. And then when I look back on it,

But it was. It was pride. It was, I'm special. I know stuff that other people don't know. And that is really dangerous because that idea is like, you know, President Benson gave a talk called Beware of Pride. And he said it's a universal sin. To me that meant. President Benson really quickly for our listeners was a prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So he said that it was a universal sin. And I took that to mean that we're all tempted by it. We're all affected by it. Nobody's immune from pride. Nobody's immune from thinking they're special. It might be a little. It might be a lot. But you've got to be on guard for it. And I believe that that was part of the appeal to me was that that, you know, I was special. And so anyway, I just wanted to mention that. Thanks, no, thanks for sharing that. That's vulnerable to share and I appreciate it because I think that a big theme with a vow in general and preppers and the community is making people feel special. Yeah. And I totally, what you said about a vow, that was totally an attitude there, that we're special. We know all this stuff that the general membership of the church doesn't know.

and we're going to be up in these camps and they're going to just be either killed or fighting it out down in the valleys. And, you know, we're we're we're, we're, we're, we're chosen people. Totally. Yeah. I thank you. Exactly. I really think that's what it starts. And I think that many people would say, no, that's, you know, no, no, no, no.

But I think that's exactly what it is. And I think in a place like Rexberg where 90% of the population is LDS to want to feel special. or that you know something more than the other membership is part of that culture a little bit too. Yeah. So for sure. I did want to mention that. We had this family night with Chad and Tammy and their kids. I didn't know this.

But so a number of our kids went to BYU, right? and they went to the same singles ward as Garth and Emma and they got to know them really well. And one of my daughters was on a committee with Garth and one of my other daughters, I'll talk about that a little later. She actually dated him not a lot. It was just very brief. And then another one of our daughters was she told me one time she said, yeah, Emma, my best friend in the ward. So, you know, and one of our sons also knew Garth and Emma. And in fact, one time they told me that our son and our daughter and Garth and Emma skipped out on, I think,

Sunday school and we're sitting out in the hall at church, at the singles ward. And they were like talking about the dismal state of their love life, right? And how they didn't have any dates. and da-da-da-da. So, you know, they were friends. They hung up. They talked. I don't think they were super close when did everything together. But they, you know, and they told me about that.

And I kind of chuckled because I was like thinking, why don't you guys, you know, you could date Emma and then you could date dark art. I mean, in my mind, that's what I was thinking, right? Simple ideas of parents, right? Like, how hard is this? Yeah. Anyway, so yeah. So then, let's see.

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Family home mean, since you went back to the family, I had a, I just wanted to know what you thought. when Chad stood up at that family night at your house and started essentially preaching, that's what I'll call it. What were the attitudes of Tammy and his children? Were they? And I'm sure you probably weren't aware of it then. You know, it's, I'm sure hindsight, but what were they doing? You know, they were just listening kind of like our family was like our kids were.

I don't think any of my kids really knew that much about Chad's, you know, books or anything. They just kind of listened. I didn't really sit there and kind of look and watch what they were doing because I was listening to Chad. So anyway, and I'm sure that he was probably very flattered that somebody would want to, you know, invite him over, them over family. I'm even going to listen to him, tell about, you know, his experiences. Right. And he just assumed that he just assumed that that's why you invited him over. Right.

Yeah. I know. Right. And that wasn't the reason. It was just like our family's gifts, no, their family. family, right? You know? Right. Exactly. I get to know you event where he takes over. Sorry, thank you for sharing. Go ahead. Sorry, where you were headed. Yeah. So, um, so then, uh, so my husband would go out back and forth to Utah. Sometimes he'd take the kids. Sometimes he wouldn't. Um, just

depending on whatever it was. And we usually drive because, you know, when you have a large family, buying, playing tickets like that and I wasn't working outside the home, you know, it can, Pricie and so he would go out and he would stop and at the Rose, Jeff and Julie Rowe and he got to know them. He'd stop and just like visit and Jeff and him got to know each other. And one of the things he told me was that when he stopped and he visited with them, Jeff really didn't have any interest in talking about any of Julie's like near death experiences or her books or any of her stuff. They wanted to talk about deer, hunting deer and hunting. That was kind of it, guy stuff, right?

So it was like his kind of relationship with them was a little different. And then we stopped one time I was with him and we stopped to see them. And I would like those two would kind of go off and he'd show him stuff and like, oh, a new rifle or whatever. And they had actually bought a new home in Kansas. And they gave us a tour of their home. And I remember, I got to tell you this, I remember they gave us a tour of every, every room, like every square inch, right? And it was really interesting because we went down into the basement. And I remember in Julie's books, how she talked about in the camps, like it got to the point in the camps where they'd run out of food and people were really hungry. And, and I remember and thinking, wow, I looked at their food storage. And it. And it was. And I remember. And I remember and thinking, wow, I looked at their food storage. And it. And, it wasn't very much, right? Because I knew how much, you know, so many pounds per person per year. And I knew that. I had that memorized, right? Because I needed to always adjust ours, right? Because

I was actually thinking, okay, our daughter got married and we need to get some for them because they're probably not going to have any because they're students. And so like I knew exactly what we had and how much we had. And I can tell you right now, they didn't have hardly very much at all. And I was really shocked. I was thinking, if you really believe this, you would have a lot more food storage. You would not only have a year's supply, but you would have way extra. You know what I'm saying? I agree with this. The story was fascinating when you mentioned it to me the first time. Julie Rowe hardly had any food storage. Yet this is what she went around the country preaching was food storage and preparedness. And people were spending.

their entire life savings on Army tents and food storage. And you're telling us that in her house, there was hardly a food storage. Right. Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months?

Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes, picked it up, and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah. No hassle. None. That is super convenient.

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You need a really good tent stove. You need, you know, all this stuff. And people were spending tons of money on that kind of stuff, you know. And like you said, cash it in there 401Ks, quitting your jobs, doing all this kind of stuff, you know. So and we did. We got we got a bunch of tents. We got a we got well not a bunch but we got some a heavy duty pretty good size tent and a and a tent stove and we had these amazing sleeping bags that we got.

And you know, yeah, it was and we spent money on it, right? We spent good money on it. Well, and maybe you don't want to bring this up yet, but Julie Rowe asked something financially of you. Wow. Yeah, no, I'll talk about that. So we, our son, our married son said, hey, I've been looking in this county in central Utah and we could get five acres there for a really cheap price. And he told my husband that.

He said, why don't we buy, we'll buy five acres, you buy five acres and we'll have them next to each other. And we'll, we'll have this little place that we can go down to. and ride four wheelers and do stuff. And we're like, my husband was like, yeah, because it was cheap. I'll have to tell you. It was really cheap. And so we did. We bought a five acre lot.

Our son bought one. And it was great. You know, we've done things to it to improve it. And Julie approached my husband. And I'm not sure how she probably, I don't know if she called him or did it through email, but he came up to me and he said, hey, he said, Julie Roe, wants us to deed over our five acres to her greater tomorrow relief fund. And I was like, I said, okay, well, let me think about it.

And I was like thinking, uh, no, I'm not going to do that. Uh, and I told my husband, I said, no, I don't think so. But the point was, was that I actually thought about it. And I actually kind of had a twinge of, oh, gosh, you know, do I seem selfish. But in the end, I was like, no. And so it makes it feel guilty. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you're like, she's doing this. Like if her, it's called Greater Tomorrow really fun. And I don't, you know, it was supposed to be helping refugees and all these people. And I don't know if anybody's ever like checked into their financials. But I've never heard anything more about that. But I think a lot of people gave a lot of money.

And I heard that she had asked a ton of people to give a lot of financial, type resources to this and who knows whatever happened to it. I'm not, I'm not accusing her of anything, but I've never heard that this went anywhere, this graded tomorrow really fun. I've never heard that it's like really active and it's helping people because there's plenty of people out there to help, right?

Right. That's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, I don't know how much other people gave, but I bet you know, if people are listening to this,

people will come out and say, oh yeah, we gave this much or we gave that much. No, was there any accountability? I don't think so. And I wasn't convinced. If you were asked to deed your property, I'm sure there were other people that were asked. And I'm sure that there were other people that did do that. Yeah.

I totally believe that. I totally believe that. And then another time we got some email. And on the email, she had said, okay, I have different people in different areas who are kind of like the head. like this couple in this state and this couple in this state and this couple in this area, they're going to be in charge of when, you know, when the prophet says everybody go out to Utah to the camps and the, you know, basically everybody from the East Coast, West Coast are all going to migrate to Utah to go up into these camps. And she's like, okay, I'm going to have people like way stations and people that are

over things. And she had her name on this list. And like we had never, she'd never, she'd never asked us. She'd never talk to us about it. But our name just showed up. And I just like, like just ignored it because I'm like, you never asked me. You never talked to us. You never talked to us about this. And I just thought it was so presumptuous, I guess, for her to even assume that we would be okay with that without even being asked. You know, and then I don't know if some of your listeners might know that around the year, like, I think it was 2015. 2015, 2016. She got on

all these radio shows. Now she was on them when her book first came out. She did the radio show circuit, right? But then she came out and she was like sobbing and crying and saying there's an imminent earthquake. She called the Wasatch Wake Up.

And she said it's imminent. It's going to happen. And I remember she said there's going to be green grass, but there's going to be snow on the ground. And all these people out of about, we're speculating, oh, it could be like early spring when the grass is green, but it's still a late snowstorm or it could be in the fall. You know, they were just like crazy speculating, like as if this was really going to happen and it was going to be devastating this earthquake, right? And then that would happen.

And then a couple weeks later, there'd be another really bad earthquake. But in between the two earthquakes was when we were going to be called out to the camps, I believe. I could be, you know, I could not remember because this has been a number of years ago. But I remember how she was like sobbing and crying on the radio shows. And I thought, well, let's see, right? And sure enough, nothing happened. And she had like all these people making up kind of like excuses why it didn't happen. Like, oh, it's probably going to be in the spring.

It's not yet, you know. And then she said she saw Trump and he was shot and there was blood. and nothing, it didn't happen. Wow. Yeah, that's a, that's wow. Yeah. So, and I don't know if you can go back and listen to those again because a lot of people scrub things, you know, but I do believe she was on the Mills Crenshaw show.

And I don't even know what radio station he was on at the time. But that's when she was telling all this stuff. And then it didn't happen. And when that happened, when these things started not happening, I began to withdraw. and become more reserved and think, you know, I'm not so sure about all of this. Another thing I want to mention about that time, that time period between probably 2015 and 2017, so I had told a family member about her book, right? Actually, several family members.

And one of the people that I had told about her book was a relative. And this relative actually was going to be down in Tennessee. and they said, hey, since you know her, we're going to be a town in Tennessee, and we would like to go to hear her speak, but we also want to take her out to dinner. And this family member said, hey, and I said, oh, okay. And the family member said, because I like to get to know people and see them face to face and interact with them. He says, I can tell a lot about people just from, you know, a few minutes of interaction. And so I made the arrangements. and they did take her Julie Roe out to dinner and they did go and hear her speak.

And then afterwards I spoke to him about it. I said, well, tell me what your thoughts were. And he's like, well, he said, she definitely has some mental health challenges. He said, maybe she really saw all this stuff. He said, I don't know. He said, but just from visiting with her, she's got some issues. And when she did go on the radio show all about the Wasashe wake up, people were saying, well, she's mentally ill.

And then she did come back on the radio again. And she did say, people are saying I'm mentally ill. And yes, I do have a diagnosis. I do have a mental illness. And she actually said that on the radio show. And people were talking about it. And by this time, people on different forums about LDS Freedom Forum, these different forums, they started like kind of like bashing her and saying she's a false

profit. She's full of it. And she really, even on a vow, a vow was people were. Yes. There were people bashing her. But I got to tell you, those who were bashing her were bashed back probably, you know, it was like 10 to 1. The people there who supported her were just like, you know, how dare you? You don't know her, blah, blah, blah. You know, and they were not having it, generally speaking. But there were a number that were like, yeah, she's full of it, you know. Can I go back really quickly? You mentioned how successful Julie's books were and how you said Chad probably couldn't believe it either. You mentioned this moment that you saw Tammy's shoes. That was heartbreaking.

Thank you for sharing that moment. When Julie started to become successful, Chad clearly was able to support his family a little bit more. Is that correct? Yeah. And let me just share a story about that. So one of our daughters had just come home from a mission. and she had run into Garth.

And like I said, she knew him before her mission from the singles ward. And so she ran into him and his parents, Chad and Tammy had moved up to Idaho by this time. So they moved up there, I think, in the summer of 2015. And so this was probably early fall of 2015, maybe. And so, yeah, like late summer, early fall. And I don't know when they moved up there. I think it was like early summer. late spring, early summer, but I think it was right around then. So she ran into Garth and and they

went out on a date. And so after their date, they came over to the house and they were sitting at the table and I'm like, hey, how's your parents? How's your dad? And he's like, oh my gosh, he's like, we love this last weekend. I was up visiting them and one of the reasons I went up there was Julie Rowe came up to Rexburg. And I think they rented the Exburg Tabernacle for her to speak. And literally the place was filled. And I don't know how many people it holds, but it was like packed. I've heard about 2000 at least. Yeah. With this particular event you're referring to, I've heard others talk about it. Right. And as a matter of fact, I had two friends who were on a vowel, but I also knew them from my ward who went up there to hear

her speak. And they said they waited in line to meet her after the event for like, I don't know, an hour or two or long. And they said just when it was time for them, they shut the line down. And they never got to speak to her. But they waited that long just to have, you know, a few seconds, 30 seconds with her because she was kind of a celebrity. So her books were really popular. So what happened was Garth was saying, oh my gosh, he said, I learned so much this weekend. He said, Julie came and stayed with us. And I learned that my dad, all his books that he wrote this whole time growing up, I thought they were all just stories, just fiction. And he said, this weekend, I learned that they were all true, that everything in those books were from

dreams and visions that he has had. And I never knew that. And he he was so sincere. I didn't at all doubt that that he had grown up thinking that and that, but he found out this weekend. And then he said his dad went through this whole timeline of what was going to happen, right? Like the headquarters of the church was going to be moved up to Rexburg and there was going to be all these devastations and earthquakes in Utah was going to be just devastated. And he was just like going through the whole time.

timeline. And this timeline is in Chad's books. You know, you can read it in some of his books. I can't remember the series or everything right now. But it was just fascinating to me. And then he said something that was really interesting. He said, yeah, he said, I said, so Julie's books have been really popular, right? And so yeah, he said, my dad has made so much money. He said, we never have been able to go like go out to eat as a family and my dad said hey we're going to go out to eat we're going to go to whatever restaurant you want to you can order whatever you want and we're like are you sure and he's like yeah he says we've got money now you know so this was very very popular and it really like I think took Chad from like really a struggling publisher author to somebody who is kind of hit the

big time right and I think that he Chad really was pretty happy about it. And I think that he felt like now I've arrived, you know. Definitely. Thanks for sharing that story. And so with Garth, sharing this story, he clearly once believed that they were fiction, but are you saying at this point, he truly believed they were visions too? Yeah. I was sincerely believing my dad had visions. Right. Because he told him, his dad had said, you know, this isn't, this isn't all pretend. This is all real. I've had all these visions, everything's been shown to me

and I've just written it down. So, and so Garth, excuse me, Garth was told that the week that Julie was speaking at that packed tabernacle event. Is that? Right. Yeah. That was it. That's where the story changed. Yeah. We are going to stop here today.

This will conclude the first part of Anna's interview. The second half is coming very soon. She has a lot more to say. Thank you. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden, a True Crime podcast, for exclusive content. Things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info.

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