Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: An Interview with "Anna" PART 2 - Friend of the Daybell family and member of AVOW

Episode Date: February 28, 2024

ANNA PART TWO: As we prepare for Chad Daybell’s trial —scheduled for April, 2024– we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For those new to this twisted case about Doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, and to better understand future episodes-we recommend our full Beyond the Veil season, but if you don't have that time, we have one episode summarizing everything you need to know. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, it’s our May 2nd, 2023 episode titled: "Beyond the Veil: The prequel -Chad daybell and Lori Vallow - the background story you’ve never heard." Lauren wrote and produced the episode so HTC listeners can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour.   Now, back to THIS episode. "Anna" was a friend of the Chad and Tammy Daybell family, was friends with Julie Rowe, and was a long time member of the Doomsday prepper website AVOW. This interview was originally recorded in November of 2021. THIS IS PART TWO. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the Lori Vallow trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, u I and c e.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. This is part two of Anna's interview with hidden true crime. If you haven't listened to part one, I recommend you start there. Do you know Julie Rowe? Yes, I do.

Do you know Chad Daybell? Yes. Do you know Chad Daybell's children? Yes. I know Garth and Emma. Okay. Do you know Nancy and Mike James? Yes, I know them.

And you know Christopher Parrott? Yeah. I was a member of a vow for, I would say, like almost eight years. But Anna and I have been talking in depth for quite a while now, and Hidden True Crime is honored that you would feel safe enough and comfortable enough to share your story with us and what you know when it comes to the Chad and Laurie Daybell case.

So thank you. Hidden, a True Crime podcast, a forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. As we prepare for Chad Daybell's trial scheduled for April 2024, we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For many of our listeners, they understand the Lori Vallow Chad Daybell case, but for those new to this twisted case about doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, to better understand future episodes I really recommend our entire Beyond the Vale season.

But hey, I also realize we don't all have time to listen to an entire season. So I took care of that for you, summarizing everything in a single episode. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on the Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow case, it is our May 2nd, 2023 podcast episode titled Beyond the Vale, the prequel, Chad Daybel and Lori Vallow, the background story you've never heard. You can also find this on our YouTube channel if you want the visuals. I wrote and produced this episode for that very reason, so everyone can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour. For any of your friends who need the basics so that they two can follow along into the next months and into Chad's trial, send them that May 2nd, 2023 episode to get them started.

This is part two of Anna's interview with Hidden True Crime. If you haven't listened to Part 1, I recommend you start there. Anna was friends with Chad and Tammy Daybell. She was friends with Julie Rowe. Anna was a member of AVow for eight years. That's a prepper website, founded by East Idaho resident Christopher Parrott. It's where Chad, Julie, and others shared their dreams and visions, and where people prepared for the second coming of Christ.

Now, let's begin. Part 2. You know, I will say something. There was a person, she has a website called No Fear Prep's. And her name is Shelly or Michelle McDermott. And her and I had communicated just probably like four or five emails total. But I had sent her something in an email and I had said something about Julie Roe. And she told me that she did not believe in Julie Rose's visions and dreams.

or near death experiences. She didn't believe it. And basically she said that Julie took a piece here and a piece there from other people's visions. And that she said, I've read literally hundreds of near death experiences. And she said, I know that she took it from other people's stuff and just incorporated it. On a vow, people are always posting their dreams. And they'd say, I saw this and I saw that. And, you know, and I don't know if it was group, think like people would read.

somebody's dreams and then that night they'd have a dream, you know, then they'd get up and say, oh my gosh, I had this dream last night. But the dreams all seem to kind of go along the same vein of, you know, I saw this earthquake and I saw this devastation and I saw all this bad stuff. And basically there was always people posting dreams, just like you could go into the forum of the dreams and visions and you could just read hundreds and hundreds of these dreams and visions that people had. And, you know, she said that Julie had just gone in there and, you know, taken, taken from other people's stuff. And actually, I had read somewhere and I don't know if I put this in the email, but there was somebody who posted on some site that he knew for a fact that Julie would take literally verbatim a sentence here or a group of words there.

And she had put that in her book. And he's like, there's no way that you could do that and have it be a coincidence that she had to have copied that. So she plagiarized other people. Yeah. Yeah. This is what this guy said. He said, she plagiarized, you know. What about, you know, when you bring this up, what about people like Hector Sosa or Mike Stroud or all these other people we've heard about that are also visionaries or dreamers?

Was it kind of the same thing? Were they all having the same dreams and taking them from each other? Or is that something you know about? Well, with Hector Sosa, what I know about that was that I think Chad became really emboldened by Julie's success. And so what he did, and you can read this probably, I know I read it on a vow, but he had this impression one day that he need to go to talk to Hector. And Hector actually lived in Springville, Utah, the same place Chad lived. And so Hector went, I mean, Chad went to Hector's house, showed up on his doorstep, knocked on his door and said, Hey, I've been reading your stuff on a vow because Hector was posting things on a bow.

He said, would you like to do a book? I can publish your book. And Hector said, yeah. And so he, Hector's, Chad published Hector's book. And so Hector also had dreams and visions. And then I believe from what I've read on a vow and everything is that Hector became really close with Chad and really close with Julie. And Hector defended Chad, you know, after the kids didn't. nobody knew where they were and people were speculating hector was a staunch stanch defender of chad

with just like no no way chad you know i know chad he would never do anything wrong you know and it was interesting because i think i mentioned that on a vow people began to kind of bash julie some people and a bunch of people came to her defense and then it got it got so contentious that people who were dreamers didn't want to put up their dreams anymore and so what happened was a group of people decided to make their own special little site. And they, so they kind of broke off from a vow and they called, called it PTZ,

pathway to Zion. And it was in, you had to join by, so a group of people started it. I don't know all the people. I think Julie, I think Hector, I don't know who else.

And then what they would do was that you had to be invited, right? You had invited to join and you had to know somebody in the group. Because they were going to screen everybody, right? PTZ pathways to Zion is something I've heard of before and it's closely associated with Hector Sosa. Is that accurate? Okay. Yes.

So Hector became, I don't know if he decided to start it. I don't know who started because we got invited by Julie and we also got invited by somebody else. But we kind of were like busy with our lives doing our thing and it was like it just didn't hold the interest. You know, the whole dreamer vision thing was just not. we weren't going down that path as much anymore. So we didn't join up, but I know people that did. I know people who were in it. And it was interesting because when the whole thing with Chad kind of blew up,

Hector put out an email to all the people on Pathways to Zion because Hector was over, Hector was in computer science type. That's like his vocation with computers. And so he kind of ran all the, you know, the computer stuff with it. And so he put up this email that's kind of gone viral. You can find it. But basically he just said, I'm shutting everything down.

I'm divesting any of the funds we have in this one fund. And I'm warning you that you better not talk to anybody about some of the things that we on Pathways to Zion know to be true. He said, for example, multiple moral. probations and energy work. And he's, he's, so right there, he's saying, I totally believe in multiple probation and I believe in energy work. And he said that bishops and state presidents all of the United States, we're going to start purging people and excommunicating them for belonging to pathway to Zion and believing

in this stuff. And so he was warning everybody, you know, we're like the rats. We're going to flee the ship. I'm shutting everything down. Don't tell anybody. what you believe about this stuff. And I just thought that was very interesting because some of your listeners might know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not believe in multiple mortal

probation, which is basically reincarnation. But they don't want to use the word reincarnation. They want to call it something that sounds more, you know, palatable, like multiple mortal probation. Right. The church has never taught that. you can probably go back to some obscure talk from some guy, you know, 100 years ago, and he might have said something about different probation.

And they can, you know, they can say, okay, this here and then somebody said this there. But truth be told, you know, when you interviewed the La Baron, I can't remember her first name right now. Anna. Anna Labaran. She spoke that a lot of these polygamous breakoffs groups, They have been teaching multiple mortal probation for many, many years now. And that's kind of a, and then this Jim Harmston that was down in Mantai, he had kind of a breakoff group. He taught, yep, he taught multiple mortal probation.

So it's been around for a while. And I know that Eric Smith said in his interview that he started studying it and he prayed about it. And, you know, it was revealed to him that it's a true doctrine. And then he pitched it to Chad. And at first Chad didn't believe it, but then Chad grasped. onto it. So I really, you know, this whole idea is like, I don't know, it's like kind of like these, they, when you start, when you open the door to this deception, what I call that we're special pride deception, you know, you are then now influenced by these false spirits or

these false teachings. And I have to say that Julie put in one of her books. I can't remember which one it was that kind of in the back, she just said, hey, one of the things that's really helped me is the body code or the emotion code. And, you know, she gave a little blurb on it. And you could actually go and download for free the whole book. And when I read that in one of her books, and I can't remember what it was. I think it was probably in 2014, 13 or 14, I listened to that book on, you know, it was like a podcast type thing. I listened to the audio of it and I was like, wow, this is really interesting. And actually it was like right.

Anyway, it was, I thought this really interesting. So I kind of tried to do it, you know. I thought, okay, I'm going to try to do this. And I was thinking, you know, either I'm not very good at this or this is a bunch of hooey, you know. But at the time, I was more of the inclination. I'm not very good at this. But I will tell you something really interesting. But when she came out to visit us, my husband was talking to her about this advanced degree that he was working on.

And she's like, forget that. She said, do energy work. You can make so much more money doing energy work than you can like getting an advanced degree and, you know, getting a better job or whatever. Right. And I will tell you that I think it was the first time I had been into their home. she was like, oh, she goes, I got to check something really quick. And she's like, oh, she goes, wow, she says, I need some money. She's like, I don't know what she was looking at.

She says, I need to do an energy. I need to do some energy sessions. I need some money. And it really just rubbed me the wrong way. I was like, oh, wow, this is what it's all about for you. You know, remember you telling me this, telling the story before this interview. that Dr. John, that story hit Dr. John pretty powerfully. In other words, she was looking at her phone or something and it was just really casual off the cuff, kind of like a comment she was saying out loud

without realizing she was saying it out loud. Would that be an accurate description? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She just kind of said, wow, I need some money, time to do some energy healing sessions. Yep, yeah. And that was kind of a real turnoff for me. And I will tell you that when I told my, oh, I know what I was going to tell you. This kind of goes full circle. So a family member, I had shared Julie Rose book with her. And she was like, so she really got into it, right? And she really got into the energy healing.

And she started doing the body code, the emotion code. She got certified. She started doing foot zoning. And so what happened was she invited me and several other like cousins, aunts, whatever, to go to a all-day seminar in Salt Lake City with Bradley Nelson, Dr. Bradley Nelson, the guy that kind of invented the emotion code or body code. And so we went up there and he was like, okay, you know, he'd talk about it and then he'd have you get up and practice it. And then he'd sit back down and you'd take a break, but you practiced a lot and he'd go through everything. And she was really into it.

And she really was like a follower and a devotee and she believed it with all her heart. And she wanted to share this message with everybody. But I got to tell you, as I was doing it, and I was looking and watching Dr. Nelson, I just had this bad feeling. Like, you know, call it whatever you want. Call it intuition, gut, the spirit, whatever. I just didn't have a good feeling. And I remember as I walked out that day and went to my car, I thought, I'm never going to do the energy work.

I'm never going to involve myself with it. There's something about it. I don't like. And I'm not. And I had never gotten into it, right? Because I didn't think I was very good. But she'd come and she'd live somewhere else and she'd say, oh, I'm not going to be in town. Can I come and do some on you?

And she would do do it. And I remember thinking, I didn't like it. I was like, uh, this is like, I just didn't like it. And she would do foot zoning on me too. And I don't like that either. I just never had a good feeling about. the energy work. And what's interesting is some of your listeners may be familiar that in a general conference a couple of years ago, Elder Ballard gave a talk. And in the talk, he came out and said,

you know, basically to, in a nutshell, don't do energy healing. Don't do that. It's not right. And it's, you know, don't do it. And go to, you know, people that actually are competent professionals. And then in the Handbook of Instructions that came out maybe a year ago, maybe less, they put that in there. That energy healing was not something that the church approves of or wants their members to get involved with. And one of the reasons is, I believe, is that they charge a lot of money for it. In fact, Julie Roe was excommunicated. And one of the reasons she was excommunicated was for priestcraft. And she was asked to stop doing energy work and to stop like charging money for it.

And she refused to do that because it's a big moneymaker for her. If you go on her website and you look at how much she charges for stuff and you figure out how many people are going to her seminars and everything, you figure out really quick that this is huge for her. This is huge money, big money. And she's not going to walk away from it, you know. When you talk about Julie Rose excommunication, that happens on a local level, right? so it would be in Kansas and they were telling her to stop practicing this type of thing. Is that correct?

Yeah, she wouldn't. You know, it was like her state president had met with her. And in fact, it was really interesting. Before she had moved to the, to where she was excommunicated, they'd actually moved and lived in an Iowa, I believe. And when she was at our house, she said she had to make a, phone call or she would yeah she had to make a phone call or take a phone call and it was from her state president and when she got off i said how did that go and she said not well so this was before the

state president who excommunicated her so she was on the church's radar and i don't know if people remember this but they the church came out um before she was way before she was excommunicated after she became really popular they came out and said that don't use her book for seminary, you know, don't, don't reference that, you know. And I remember people on a hour like, oh, well, you know, they don't want the church using anything that's not church approved materials. They were kind of like massaging it or trying to make it like downplaying that. Like, you know, it would be anybody, not just Julie. But she was on their radar and what was interesting at the time she was excommunicated, her husband was in the bishopric of their ward.

you know and um but anyway so they excommunicated her for i don't know all the things but i do know priestcraft was one of them and i know that she was asked to stop doing energy work and she didn't oh i will tell you that we did stop at her house another time my husband and i in fact he said to me hey do you want to stop by jeff and julie rose house and i said well i said i'm good either way I said, if you want to, that's great. We can do that. And so this was in June of 2017. And so we stopped.

And so my husband's going off with Jeff, talking about hunting and deer and all that and whatever. And then Julie, she was like going on and on about this crazy stuff. And I really couldn't wrap my head around it. But the gist of it was that she said that she had lived in other lives. She didn't call it reincarnation, but it was multiple probation. And that she knew that she was Joan of Arc in a previous life. And she was telling me all these experiences. She had as Joan of Arc.

And this was like, I was thinking, wow, this is crazy. And then she told me that she said, I've seen Chad Daybill being translated and he has seen me translated. And I was like, I remember when and then, you know, we left. And when we left, I immediately said to my husband, I said, I don't ever want to stop there again. I said she's gone off the deep end. And I told them a little bit about it. But I remember as I thought about our conversation, I thought, Julie and Chad have had a lot of,

they've been doing a lot of, had a lot of experiences. And what I've come to find out, which I didn't really know, was that Julie taught Chad energy healing and energy work, and he really got into it. And I actually had sent you a version of the Reddit email, if people aren't familiar with that. So what happened was, I guess I'll go into that a little bit. Yeah, really quickly. So going back to this, this was a wow moment for me, what you just said, that Julie told you that Chad told her that they were translated beans. That, to me, is a wow moment because he told Lori Ballo the exact same. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Yeah. Translated. So to me, I just wanted to sit for a moment and really kind of take that in that happened. And she said that. That's, you know. Okay. Yeah. She said that she had seen Chad translated and he'd seen.

her translated. And I'm thinking either they're doing some kind of energy work of pendulums or they're having a vision or he's telling her that. And then she's having a same vision later she thinks about it and she sees the same thing in vision. And you know, who knows? She didn't go into the detail of it. But just an interesting like comparison with Lori. Like Lori is a translated being, you know. And I don't know if Chad said that he was a translated being. I don't know if he said he was. I knew that she thought she was. And that's why she didn't have to wear her, you know, temple garments anymore because she was translated, right? And there are protection for mortals. And she wasn't mortal anymore, which is crazy. But yeah. Anyway. So, so let's let's talk about the Reddit email now. That was a

big part of what you shared with me. For listeners that don't know what the Reddit email is or the infamous Reddit email. It was released early on in the case before anyone knew about zombies or portals or these bizarre beliefs that came from Chad and Lori Daybell. And it talked about all of those things. As time has gone on, it was released in the beginning of 2020. And as time has gone on, the public has learned that almost everything in that email or maybe everything in that email has been accurate and that it stemmed from Melanie Gibb. With that being said, you have a very close connection and involvement in this Reddit email, as well as some new information.

So maybe you can now talk about that. So what happened was, so getting back to a vow, one day my daughter calls me and she says, mom. This is October of 2019. She goes, mom, you're not going to believe this. And I said, what? She said, Tammy Daybell died. And I'm like, what? And she's like, yeah, she tied. And I said, she's like in her 40s. And she goes, I know. She goes, it's so sad. She goes, it's just like, I can't believe it. And I'm like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. So it was just sad. And my kids went to the funeral. And they said, you know, how Chad was just crying and sobbing and then, you know, it's just awful. So then. He was crying and sobbing at his wife's funeral, even though he's been charged

in murder. With her murder. So he was sobbing according to your children. Yep, yep. He was, and they said, oh, yeah, he was just so devastated. So then what happened is in October, before that, we had the, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has general conference at the first weekend in October. So Tammy died like, you know, a couple weeks later. And so in that conference, our president of the church gave a talk. And in that talk, so he gave a talk. And then about a month after the talk, a magazine comes out. And it has all of the talks from the conference in it. And so in November, so Tammy dies in October. In November, I'm reading his talk. And in it, he, He says, there are some things, I'm just going to paraphrase because I don't have it in front of me, but he said, there are some things that you may have to give up.

And it may be really hard, but you need to kind of search your soul and know what things that aren't, you know, valuable in your time and your life. And when I read that, it was like, it just hit me like a ton of bricks. I immediately knew that I, it was just so clear. I immediately knew that I was to not renew my avow membership and I was to get off of a vow. And I was like, and it was a shock to me because I was kind of like addicted to it. You know, it was like that's, you know, all the dreams and the visions. Oh, did you hear this? Did you see that?

And that amazing? You know, I really like, it was kind of like porn. It was like vision porn, right? Dreamer porn. And so I. Description. Yeah. So I was like.

like, oh my gosh, I have to give it up. And I knew it. And I was like, okay, I will. I am not. And it was funny because my membership was going to renew in, and I just, in November, and I just didn't renew it. So then I can't remember when it was, but I think it was like right around Christmas time when this, I, I would go on to KSL.com because I, uh, like to read the Utah news.

and even though we didn't live in Utah. And I saw this headline. It said, missing kids may be connected to the death of a Fremont County woman. And I was like, I started reading it. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm like, oh, my gosh, how can this be connected to Tammy? This is so crazy. And so I had a friend who was on a vow.

And we'd actually told him about Julie. And he'd bought her books. And he got on a bath. and he came to hear her speak. And I called him up and I said, do you still have your avowal membership? And he's like, yeah. And I said, can you get on?

And he's like, yeah. And I said, is there anything on there about these missing kids and Tammy Davey? And he's like, yeah, there are some posts on there. And I said, can you read him to me? Because I didn't have my membership anymore. And he's like, you know what? Here's my username and my password. He says, you have my permission to go on.

So literally for the next probably two months. I was like on there all the time trying to find out everything I could about how this had to do with Tammy and these kids and what was going on. And it was just crazy because it was just like every day, just hundreds and not hundreds every day, but literally just tons of people posting stuff. And everybody was like backing Chad. They're all like, you know, supporting him and saying that the grandma was an evil woman. and this had to do with millions of dollars. She was trying to get the kids and they had to put them into hiding. But then, you know, if you watch the news, there started a little, these little cracks started

showing, right? Where, you know, it was like it didn't make sense because, you know, it just didn't add up. And I was like, oh my gosh, this isn't. And so I posted like, I posted a quote from Ian Rand and she said, contradictions do not exist. When you think you're facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong. And I put a post up and I said, there's something going on.

I said, this doesn't make sense, right? And I said, we assume this and this and this about Chad and Lori, but I said, all this other stuff doesn't make sense. I said, there's something going on. And then another person said, yeah, you're right. This stinks, you know. And then all these people were defending Chad. Well, then because I had posted that and there were other people who had posted, I emailed a woman. And I, and because she was not supporting Chad.

She was a dissenter. And so I emailed her and then she's like, call me up. Here's my number. And so long story short, we started talking and then she said, I'm going to do a text group. There's several other women. There's like five of us. And she said, so we started texting back and forth and we were opposed to Chad. And then we emboldened each other because they started putting stuff up saying this, this is wrong.

Chad, there's something going on. And everybody was slamming her. Christopher Parenthood was slamming her, calling her names. Just horrible to her. And anybody that stood up stood against Chad were just getting slammed, right? So then she said that she had received this document from two, there were two women who had talked to Melanie Gibb, who knew Melanie Gibb, and Melanie had told them things, and they compiled it. They exchanged notes, and they took both of their notes, and they compiled it into one document.

And so she sent me that document, right? And so then what was interesting was later, I heard another, like, YouTuber read basically kind of the Reddit email, right? She read it off and she, then the Reddit email shows up. So she reads it off on her YouTube, then the Reddit email shows up. But the interesting thing was the document I got was had more stuff, had really interesting things. And I remember I would listen to people and they would say things and think, no, that's not true. You know, because I had, and I didn't know how I knew it, but how I knew it was that, from the document I had gotten that was like kind of a expanded version of the Reddit email.

And one of the things- In other words, you know this Reddit email from its original source, and you're saying the public did not get the full Reddit email. Right. Absolutely. And one of the things was that it said that Maroni gave up his ceiling and he gave it to Chad. So we've all probably by now read the novel where Chad and Lori go to the temple and they're doing ceilings and then their spirits go up to another room and Moroni seals them and Christ is the witness, which is, I'm got to tell you, it makes me want to throw up to think about. Let me explain this too. Anna and I started talking before the Chandler evidence drop came down. I want to share this as we get into this.

and I had read the redacted parts of the Reddit email that you shared the additional pieces that were redacted from what the public saw before the Chandler evidence release came down last week. And I want to say that some of the things that you shared in that Reddit email already did show to be true in the evidence dump. You're sharing something that wasn't a part of it. But I just want to share that. It's been fascinating to hear what you said wasn't in the original Reddit email and then to have the evidence dump come down and say, oh, yeah, this was in what you sent me. So go ahead and share. And what you're talking about right now, too, the novel is the love story that Chad Daybell wrote, Lori.

And that is in that evidence dump we're discussing. And Dr. John and I did a reading of it on our Patreon account. We read the whole love story, right? And it's pretty appalling. Yeah. Knowing by appalling, I mean their situation and they're both being married and killing Charles. Yeah. So, yeah.

So it's really interesting, isn't it, that I would send you this because it wasn't that long ago I sent it to you. With all that redacted stuff. And then with the Chandler police evidence dump, it confirms so much of the stuff in this redacted email. right or the non-redacted stuff so basically in the version i got now i got this on i believe i told you i got it on february 6th i believe of 2020 so i had it for a long time and it said that marron now this was not on the reddit email but it was one the document i got it said maron i gives up his ceiling and gives it to chad now we know from what chad wrote in the novel that that's true right but nobody really knew that before.

And nobody really knew. People were talking about how did they get to a separate room in the temple? How did they sneak off? Jason Miles sealed them. And I kind of intuitively knew maybe because of this document that it wasn't them physically doing that. It was their spirits or whatever in their mind, right? So, oh, and then another thing I want to mention. So remember in Melanie Gibbs interview that came out with the Chandler dump, right?

She says that she went to the temple and she was in the dressing room and she felt all this heat on her head. And then she said she came out of the dressing room and she said to Lori, my head is really hot. And Lori put her hands on her head and said, yeah, your head is hot. So on the document I got that this was redacted, this is what it says instead. It says then at a separate time in the temple, while in the celestial room, Lori puts her hands on Melanie's head and ordains her to be part of the 144,000. Melanie's head begins to radiate heat. Others actually can feel that heat. So I personally think that what I just read is the truth and that what Melanie told the police was a watered down version of it.

And that was actually the number one thing that was interesting for me to read in the Chandler evidence release. Again, you sent me the full Reddit email without the redacted lines. And that was a really interesting story to it. And then we get this evidence release. And there's discussion of her head. being hot, but you're right, it was watered down. And so it confirmed to me that these lines that were redacted for the public that you're showing me now have a lot of truth to them.

Yeah. I believe that that Melanie Gibb was very involved. We know that from Cherry Doddle's interview. She knew that Charles was going to be murdered, you know? She doesn't, she doesn't indicate that in the preliminary hearing or other stuff, but she knew all that, right? And I believe that Chad had said, you guys are going to be part of the 144,000. And him and Lori were ordaining couples to that.

I believe that without a doubt. So I believe that this is, you know, that Melanie Gibb told people this and this was pulled out, but this was what she had told them. So another thing, the Reddit email, now we know it did all stem from Melanie Gibb. It's all Melanie Gibb information that friends, compiled together, including you. Yeah, and one of the thing, I don't know if I mentioned this, but this friend of mine said that Melanie Gibb wanted this document to be spread amongst those who were believers of her.

She wanted it to go out and be public because I think my personal opinion was that Melanie was very worried about any kind of legal action against her. You know what I'm saying? I think she was very concerned that she might face some kind of charges. So why else to record Chad and Lori and her conversation with them, kind of washing her hands of it, so to speak. And why else would she want this whole thing to go out, right? So you're saying she actually wanted all this information to be spread,

which is why she was telling people. Right. That's what I was told, that she wanted. just to go out amongst people that were friendly to her, those that believed her. Now, I did share this non-redacted version with my kids and probably a few friends, but I didn't like send it out to everybody. I actually thought about sending it to Tammy's sister's husband, Jason, gosh, it slips my tongue because I knew him. And I thought about sending it to them because I got it. He's a good guy.

He's a good guy. In February, really early on. And then I thought, you know what? They're still grieving. This is probably not going to make them feel any better, you know, because it does say a lot of bad things about chat in it. And I just, I just thought, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to share it. You know, it's all going to come out. But another thing that was in there.

And I think that this. was maybe known, but this was not in the Reddit email. It said, Chad and Julie had done energy work using a pendulum and searstone on people. They have spent much time together. That's, you know, we've learned a lot about Chad's necklace, but I don't know if he, I think a pendulum, I don't know if he had a necklace and a pendulum and a searstone. I don't know if anybody's talked about the searstone before. Nobody has really mentioned the searstone. And I think that that is important to bring up a searstone is something that Joseph Smith was known to use, which would kind of show that he's trying to mirror,

Chad's trying to mirror Joseph Smith. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And so then another thing that it said, when a zombie dies, its body can be reunited with its real spirit. Now, that's really interesting because, you know,

Tammy turned into, a zombie, right? And Charles was a zombie. And then JJ was a zombie. And, you know, all the people that turn into zombies, they all die. And so, you know, in, in a way of like, you know, in a way of like trying to justify killing people, it's like, oh, well, we're helping them. We're helping their true spirit reunite with their body. And then, you know, they're going to go on to another probation. So it's all good, you know. So all right. So I'm not saying I believe. that. That's just kind of how I look at how they think it. Now, I'm going to read this part, and this is a lot, but this was not in the original Reddit email, but it's what I got. It said Melanie talks to Lori all

the time after Lori moves to Rexpert. In September, they were on the phone. Tiley and Alex were in the background. Tiley was yelling at her mother to get off the phone. Tiley was always yelling at her mother about how she was always on the phone. Lori said that Tiley had turned zombie. Melanie went to visit Lori. Tiley was not there. Melanie asked about her and Lori said that Tiley had moved on.

Tiley's things were not in the house anymore. J.J. was there and he was angry and really right. Right. So J.J. was there and he was angry and really acting out. Lori said that JJ was possessed. Lory wanted to give J.J. back to K but couldn't just return him. Lori needed to be free to complete her mission with $144,000. Melanie thought of a plan and Lori liked it. Lori would call Kay and tell her that her health had

taken a turn and she couldn't care for J.J. As Melanie left for Arizona, Lori was going to call K. A few days later, Melanie asked Lori how the call went to Kay. Lori told her that she had changed her mind and sent JJ somewhere else, that he was really happy there and doing really well. Well, we all know what happened. The next thing said, Lori calls Melanie at the end of September and said that Tammy was on to them. So that would indicate that Tammy was, you know, she knew.

She or she was suspicious. And interestingly, not long after that, she got shot at with quote what she thought was a paintball, which was probably Alex trying to kill her. And then, you know, October 19th, she's dead. You know, that's only like two weeks past the end, you know, end of September, right? A little over two weeks. another thing that was on here was Melanie called Chad and Lori and was very upset with them for saying she had JJ. When Melanie asked where the kids were since Kay was asking for welfare, Chad said, where no one will find them.

Melanie felt her salvation had been ruined that she would never have Heavenly Father's love again. She knew beyond any doubt that she had been deceived, that her passion for wanting more knowledge had been. taken her way beyond the mark. Then another thing it says is Melanie's former husband and kids went into hiding for Christmas. Melanie said other people were also going into hiding. Let's see. That's basically it.

It mentions about the 20 minute phone call and Melanie called them Corahores. So there's several really interesting things about what I had read. Well, hold on really quickly. Can you hear me? Okay. There was one part towards the beginning where it talked about them walking around the track and Chad telling Lori about children becoming zombies. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. After they mentioned when a zombie dies, its body can be reunited with its real spirit, there are three redacted, there were three words that were redacted before that aren't. So this is part of the Reddit email. I'm going to read just this short paragraph, and then I will tell you what was,

I had that wasn't in the original. It says they get up early in the morning to walk around the BYU track together, holding hands and kissing. Tammy has become suspicious. Chad tells Lori that Tammy and then the part that was not in the Reddit email was and their children have now become zombies. So the original Reddit email said that Tammy had become a zombie, but the part I got was their children had become zombies too.

their children my first thought was they're not married at this point so their children would be Chad's children and JJ entirely and I don't know if that's what they meant I can't say that but that was the first thought that came in my mind well to me it was it was it was that Tammy and chat and Tammy's kids had become zombies so you felt that too it was yeah it was Chad is telling Lori that Tammy and their children so Tammy and Chad's children yep yep for sure. And then, you know, with the comment about Harry Potter under the stairs, you know, doesn't that kind of confirm how he felt? Right. That's exactly what I thought. So when I read this, again, before the Chandler evidence release came, you sent me this. It was hard to take in because

I really felt I'm like, I really don't think Chad would have called his children zombies because he raves about them in his speech in St. George and how they're all going to have a part in this second coming. That's a speech on our YouTube channel, right? The speech that he gave, you know, the day he met Lori Vallow. And he's sort of kind of saying that his children will all play this major part and a lot of his books have to do with visions of his children. But then

you sent me this that is implying that Tammy and all of his kids are zombies. And then as you point out, well said, we hear that he feels like he's just, you know, some Harry Potter reference. He's just some lonely, misunderstood soul who's never had a friend in his life living under the stairs in his house, even though he has five children and a wife.

Right. Like clearly he wasn't thinking highly of his relationship with his children. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Right. I agree. When I read that, you know, when I saw this, when I originally saw it, I thought, well, that's really sad, you know, that he thinks that about his wife and his kids.

And then with the whole Harry Potter comment, That just reconfirmed to me that he was living in his own world. And, you know, he says it like nobody, 99% of the people don't appreciate me for who I am, you know, that all the great knowledge I have or that I'm, you know, Lori and I are going to save millions, right? He had this view of himself that, you know, I am so amazing and nobody appreciates me except Lori, of course. And my wife Tammy didn't and my kids didn't. But now I've got this new goddess who we're going to go on and, you know, do these amazing things. Another thing you pointed out to, I believe it was you that, you know, his children didn't attend his wedding. He really did just kind of marry Lori on his own.

Didn't include his kids in it. And that's something else I want to point out too. Yeah. Yeah. No. In fact, on a vow, it was really interesting on a vow. So Christopher Parrott said, Chad came and picked up his last check this after Tammy died and every was like, oh my gosh, you know. And it says Chad came and picked up his last paycheck for the, he did a thing called GRI, which was a separate little thing he could pay extra for.

And he would write a column called, I think as I see it. And he would write stuff. And so he picked up his last check. And then Christopher Parrott asked him what he was going to do. And he's like, oh, there's this older gentleman. I believe that's how you referred to him. He said, there's a gentleman in Hawaii who has a really, really good near-death experience story. And he's invited me to go down there and write a book for him.

And that's where I'm going. I'm going to Hawaii to write a book. And I remember thinking, that's really weird. I just, I don't know. It just, I thought, that's really weird, you know. You're going to just take off to Hawaii to write a book. look. I don't know. It just, it just struck me as kind of odd. But, um, and then another thing that struck me as really odd was that after Tammy had died, he wrote something on a vow. And he said that,

he said that, um, after Tammy died that she came to him or she like, you know, her spirit communicated to him that this was all planned in the preexistence, that she would be his wife for the first half of his life. And I remember, I remember thinking, wow, that's really weird. And he's like, and she knew all this and she's okay with it. And I don't know. There was just something about, and I remember when I thought, when I read that, I thought, that tells me that there's a second half of your life and there's somebody else. And I'm thinking who's when their wife just dies and there should be morning who's already got somebody in the waiting right because she was my wife for the first half of my life implying there's another wife for the second half of his life and i remember thinking

about that and thinking hmm this is weird something's not this doesn't sit right maybe i was over analyzing it but anyway no i don't think you were over analyzing it at all i think you're spot on by him saying he always pictured tammy dying in a second part of his life i think It definitely meant another partner. Yeah. And I had never heard that idea of Tammy dying, Tammy dying. And I thought, you know, he came up with that story. If Julie Rose to be believed, which I have my doubts on that,

on all the stuff she says. But if other people have said it, then he was already had this wandering eye and was looking. You know, he was looking for somebody else. And in fact, when you read his novel, his role, his romance novel, and you realize that within minutes of meeting, Lori, he's already got all this, you know, sexual fantasy going on. I'm thinking, this guy has been way off the mark so far as the spirit goes for a long time because nobody that's like, you know, that you think of as a righteous LDS man would be thinking

all this stuff in five minutes, you know, 10 minutes. Absolutely. Right, in five minutes. Right. It didn't take long for him. to decide he was in love with her and who he was looking for. And he said that in that novel, too, that he was looking, you know, that she was who he'd been looking for his whole life.

I'm like, oh, do you think he had an affair with Julie Roe? You know, I don't know. I wouldn't doubt it, but I have no idea. But you know what? I think they had plenty of opportunity, you know. But Julie might not have been the goddess he was looking for, you know. Right. So yeah, but I have heard that she, well, I think when you did Girl on Fire interview, she said, well, let's just say that, you know, that Julie had, you know, maybe some guys that worked really close to her.

Absolutely. I've heard of several, you know, and several husbands from past probation is how we'll call it. Did you ever hear what her mental illness was exactly or just that it was a mental illness? No, I think I want to say. bipolar, but I could be wrong on that. But I will say this when we had her come and visit us, she paid extra close attention to my husband and was always talking to him. And like, it was like she was totally focused on him. It was like not on me. I mean, if I wanted to talk to her, I had to really, you know, insert myself into the conversation. She was just like zeroed in on him and then I remember one night because she stayed there several nights and I remember one night

I think they had gone somewhere to get something and on the way back they stopped in the they're in the driveway talking for a really long time hours sitting in the car in the driveway which I don't think that's appropriate and you know it's just like you know you might say oh well it's no big deal blah blah but the thing is it's anybody who's not anybody who's not anybody who's got a sense of propriety would say let's go in the house right let's go in the house and talk in there you know right when it shows that's sort of her emmo that she would divide the spouses and and focus on the man so yeah that goes along with what you're saying what i've heard from other people you mentioned a nickname on a vow that julie had did other people have nicknames on a vow yeah they did

they had like, oh gosh, one guy was, he was in the, he was a Marine. And so he had like Semperfy or something Marine. Some people use only their first names. Some people use a combination of their first and last name that was their real names, but you would not know their real names. It was just a combination. And I want to say that I want to talk a little bit about the portals. Please.

I know that people joke about the portals. They, you know, just think, oh, that's, you know, but I got to tell you that in my, I guess, studies, I had learned about what was called astral projection or astral travel or whatever, where people can literally kind of concentrate and their spirit can leave their body. And I had read about people who would travel. they would leave their body and then, you know, travel the universe or go somewhere or do something. And I don't know for sure if that's what Chad was doing. But to me, it's kind of an occultish thing. It's kind of like, you know, something that you shouldn't really play around with, right? And I remember when I was studying about it, it was like there was this thin silver line connecting your

spirit and your body. And one person had said, if that ever got severed, you couldn't get back to your body. that you would die, your body would die. And so when I heard about the portals and how Chad would go visit Lori in her portal, it immediately brought that to my mind that that's what he was doing. He was doing some kind of astral projection where he was, you know, his spirit was leaving his body and he was traveling to where her spirit was. And then when you read the whole Chandler dump, it's like that's totally what they were doing, right?

And so there was this person on a vow and I told you about how a group of people went off to PTC, pathway to Zion. So there was a guy who was on a vow. And then I never saw him there. And I guess he had gone to PTC, PTZ. And what happened was this, there was a woman on a vow. And she communicated with this person that I knew. And she said that she was moving from where she lived to another place.

and this guy who was on a out on PTZ said, hey, that's where I live. Our family should get together and have a barbecue. And she's like, oh, yeah, great. So anyway, so they ended up having their families get together. And he was showing her his home. And he took her into this room. And the only thing in there was an altar and two chairs.

And he said, this is where I do a portal. And Hector comes and visits me through the portal here. And it was like, yeah, so these people were doing this. And I might my point is it that is that they when you get into stuff like this, which I call kind of occultish type stuff, stuff that's really fringe energy healing. I think to me personally, energy healing opens up. It actually I think opens up like to the dark side to the portals to the dark side in a sense where these spirits can come in and they can like influence you in a way that you, that's. what I think happened to Chad and Lori. I think through energy healing. And if you if you look at all the people that have been excommunicated, Julie Rose, she was really into energy healing. Chad was into

energy healing. Mike Stroud, I don't know if he was into energy healing. But just Eric Smith I've heard is really into energy healing. And all these people, they kind of, that's kind of the entry point, like, you know, the beginner drug. And they start with that and then they get off onto this, this, the stuff and I believe that they are doing it. I believe they are traveling that way their spirits are traveling. Now, I could be totally wrong. I could be, you know, mistaken, but, you know, I think it's a scary thing. And I hope that people maybe who are listening that think that it's okay, that energy healing is okay. I'd like you to just actually think about what the church has said in the handbook and just, you know, do some real soul searching about, you know,

if they have come out and said, please don't do this, then, you know, be, you know, at least be willing to think about giving it up, giving this up and think, you know, that maybe this isn't the path to go down on because a lot of people have gone down this path have left the church. And if they haven't, you know, maybe they haven't killed kids and killed their spouses, but they've left the church. And they've, you're cut off from a lot of blessings when you do that. So I just hope people would, would, you know, consider. consider that. And I have to say that this family member of mine, when I pointed out to her that, you know, the church had come out against energy healing and that it was in the handbook, she defended it. She just said, you know, she indicated she still did it. And that she said, well, my energy healing is of the light and that other kind is of the dark, but mine's of the light. So mine's okay. And like, I think that's just splitting hairs. I don't remember them saying. that in the handbook, that if it was of the light, it was okay. And then I asked her, I said, well, what do you think about multiple mortal probation? Now, she's very, very active in the church. Tons of her kids have gone on missions. Her husband is very high up in his stake, in a leadership position, in his stake. And when I asked her that question, she said, I said, what do you think about multiple probation? She goes, I totally believe it. She said, it just makes sense. and I'm just like, wow, you know, if these people that are, you know, leaders and in the church and doing, they're believing this.

And in fact, I think I mentioned this to you when I was on a vow and I was just like putting it out there that I didn't believe this stuff. There was another woman that put out that something about Chad. And so I contacted her privately by email. and she told me that Chad had told her so she was probably in the group of people that kind of followed him. She said that Chad had told her she was a dark and that she was a something point something, you know, his point system. Right. And that would just upset her so much. And she was really upset by it because from what I have learned, and I haven't really delved into it.

But, you know, I'm like everybody else, I'm learning this stuff from the stuff that's been released. if you in your next life or in one of your lives you were you made a sign a contract with Jesus you were of the light so you have like a 4.3 light or a 2.1 light or whatever but if you'd sign a contract with Satan then you were dark and you were a 3.5 dark or whatever and so this you know that would that would be a very upsetting right and but yet she told me that she was her husband was a bishop and that She'd just gotten released as a Relief Society president. And now I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm thinking, wow, you guys are pretty high up in your ward and you're believing this because she believed it.

And I emailed her back and I said, who's Chad to you? He's not your bishop. He can't tell you this. I said, this is a bunch of, I said, this is crazy talk. This is not real. This isn't real. And she cut me off. She wouldn't, she didn't respond anymore to me.

So she either like obviously didn't like what I had to say. And she maybe thought that it's she thought it was real, but she was just upset that he had said she was a dark. But she still believed it. Wow. So in other words, so what you're saying is these beliefs are still prevalent among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,

despite them not being part of the doctrine. And beyond them being denounced by leaders of the church, people are still believing this despite Lori and chat being behind. Yeah, for sure. And that was at the time, right? That was early 2020, you know. Now, have people kind of come to their sense and sit, son? I don't know. I don't really know, but I know that it's hard for people once they accept some of these things to just turn around and change their thinking. I mean, Eric Smith still believes in, you know, these multiple probation. He still, you know, he wrote a book about it, you know, and these people, they're willing.

to give up their membership in the church for it. And this family member of mine had gone to these, she'd gone to these Julie Rose seminars. And she was always going to them. And she said to me one time, well, you know, Julie, she has a mission to accomplish. And she knows and she knows that the Lord knows that she has to do it outside of the church.

And then that's okay and the Lord is okay with that. The Lord knows that, you know, that she can, her mission is so important that giving up her membership of the church is secondary to this, you know, this mission that the Lord has for her. And I'm like thinking, wow, that's really, that's really scary to start going down those paths of thinking, right? Right. And which brings me to you, how are you doing?

clearly when you set seven, eight years in a vow, did you say? Yeah, like from probably 2012, 13 to 2019 at the end of 2019. So yeah. And Anna, you're educated, you know, you're well spoken, yet you're kind of taken in by all of this. Is that accurate? Absolutely. I was, I mean, I did not go into the probation and the energy work. but yeah, I believed in the camps.

I believed in the call out, as they call it. I believed in that. And guess what? I don't believe in the call out anymore. I don't believe in it. And I, you know, people, I don't believe in the call out. I don't really believe in the camps. I do I think it's important to be prepared, yeah.

But I believe that if we're going to get, you know, that kind of, if we're going to get any kind of guidance, it's going to be known to everybody in the church, right? It's going to be open. It's going to come through our channels of leadership. And I just don't believe most of the stuff that I was believing on a vow. And the thing is, if you get into these groups and you read every single day this stuff, pretty soon you're adopting those philosophies.

And little by little, it's, you know, line upon line, little by little you do. but I got to the point where I was, I guess, lucky enough or I started to critically, think critically and look at what do I see and, you know, there are inconsistencies in all of this. And I'm going to take a step back. And then when you do take a step back, you know, then you're like, wait a minute. And then I think one of the best things for me was when I got that impression that I needed to get out of a vow and I did. That was one of the best things I ever did so far as, you know, being on the straight and error or getting back to what, you know, the church teaches. Because, you know, I know some people say, well, a lot of members, they don't like the milk the church gives.

They need the meat, you know. That's one thing Mike Stroud used to say was that the church teaches you just the basics. The, like everything the church teaches for the recent convert because it got to appeal to the recent conference. convert and that the really deep stuff is for those who are more enlightened like us, right? That was kind of his mantra. But the truth be told, if you listen to everything that President Nelson has said, there is so much there and so many layers that you could spend your whole lifetime, you know, going into what he has taught us and told us about personal revelation and, you know, doing those

kind of things and you know there's so much there there's the meat is there okay and this idea that there's no meat there and all these people got to run to Denver snuffer or to a vow or to all this no I'm sorry that stuff is that that that will that's a delusion and that's a deception of Satan that that that's what you need to go to get to get you know greater light and knowledge it takes a lot of humility to say that you know you might have been wrong or how about this just to shift our beliefs, right? It takes humility and it takes self-awareness and it takes critical thinking, which you've done. I thank you for sharing too how Mike Stroud works. So he says, oh, this is the meat, you know. One thing, I had a friend whose mother's involved in a vow. And one thing she has felt is

that she can never deny what she once felt. So she felt the spirit confirmed to her that Julie Roe was speaking the truth. And because of that, she can never deny it. And I remember Lori Vallow on a recording saying the same thing that she can never deny seeing Jesus Christ or what she's seen. She said that to Melanie Gibb on a recorded phone call. And I'm seeing a trend with those that are sticking to Julie Roe saying that because they felt something strong and the spirit confirmed something strong to them, which is what they feel it was. But they can never deny that if that makes sense. And that is somebody that's been talking to a lot of people and trying to understand the mindsets of the people that keep believing. and hanging on to whether it's Julie Roe or Mike Stroud or John Pontius's book that he wrote or

these other people that are saying, no, Denver snuffer, that's sort of a trend. Well, I felt it once strongly. It was the spirit. I'll never deny it. Do you have any thoughts to that? Because that's something I've seen a lot while researching this case. Yeah, actually, I do. I do because I thought a lot about that. And my, my, what I would say to that is that, for example, Julie Roe, you know what, it's, there's a very, there's a possibility that Julie had in her first book, that she had an NDE, right? Very, very possible, right, that she passed the other side of the veil. She saw these things and that she was very sincere and saying, I saw this. But does that mean that everything after that, Julie said, is true or right? Because Julie has changed. You know, they say you can't

step in a river, the same river twice, right? We're all changing. We're all growing. We're all, and just because you may have gotten a witness of, let's say, Julie Rose's first book where she said, it's really important to be prepared. And one of the things that I really liked about Julie Rose first book is that she talked a lot about spiritual preparation. And I love that. I love that. And I will always say that that helped me to start really focusing on spiritual preparation. Because I was more into the like get your food storage, get the stuff, you know. But I will say that I really shifted my focus to the spiritual. And I say that's good.

But you have to always check yourself, right? You know, he's got to come back and say, wait a minute. What is she saying now, right? Is what she's saying now, right? Does that can, you know, does that feel? right to me. You know, when she, when she's saying that the earthquake is imminent, it doesn't happen, can Julie, could Julie have been deceived? You know, you've got to always come back to, well, where is she at now? Well, right now she's an excommunicated kind of anti-person who's

divorced her husband, who was a good guy and teaching all kinds of stuff that's not in, that's never been taught by the church. And so you have to say, why should I follow somebody down that path just because there was a time when I had a spiritual impression that something she said in her first book was true because maybe that was good and it was right. But that doesn't mean you should follow them down these dark paths. That's what I would say to people. Just like Elder Uchtorf, you know how he said that every pilot, they have to keep readjusting

because if they get off by one degree, they got to keep readjusting. and recalculating their flight pan, keep recalculating or recalculating all the way across wherever they're going, thousands of miles. They recalculate over and over and over. It's like GPS, you know, like you turn down the wrong road. What does it do? It recalculates for you to get you to that destination. And so it's like don't just keep going down that road and following people who've been excommunicated,

who teach false doctrine, recalibrate and say, wait a minute, where am I going? Where is this road going to take me? do I want to go there? Do I want to be where Julie Rose at? Do you want to lose my membership? Do you want to be where Mike Stroud's at? You know, I listen to almost all of Mike Stroud's podcasts. And his very first podcast, they had a lot of good stuff in him.

But I remember on one podcast, I thought, he's wrong. He's wrong about that. I know that that's not true. And, you know, you've got to always say, does this accord with what I know to be true or with the spirit or with what the church is teaching? and just ask yourself that. Thank you, Anna. Another thing that you wrote me about in the email,

and I know the time has passed and concluding, but I want to go back a little bit because I do want to bring up this Visions of Glory book because I have something to say about it. Sure. Tell me how you feel this book might have influenced some people. I think it's huge because I don't know. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records

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Ora gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. know that I'd ever heard of portals before visions of glory. Okay. And, you know, Mike Stroud started talking about portals. Chad talked about portals. And, you know, it's been a while since I've read in Visions of Glory about the portals.

But, yeah, I think it's really influenced people. I want to explain it a little bit to our listeners. I'm going to be talking about it more at a later date soon. beyond this interview. Because so many people have brought it to my attention. I started reading it. I've read the book. And let me explain what this is. And Chad Daybell in his speech in St. George brings up the name Spencer. So the book is written by John Pontius. John Pontius is now deceased. He died of cancer. And correct me if I get anything wrong, Anna, while I share this. And what John Pontius does is share a near-death experience or some spiritual experiences about a man named Spencer. Spencer is the main character

in the book, but Spencer didn't write the book. And Spencer is also a made-up name. Chad refers to Spencer again in his St. George speech. And the other reason I really delved into the book is because on the burner phones of Lori and Chad, it was revealed that Spencer's wife is one of the names. And I've started to sense that this is Spencer in the John Pontius Visions in the Glory's book. In addition to that, as I've read the book, a lot of the texts about spirits, evil spirits possessing good people. And these kind of these bizarre texts that have come out in the Chandler Evidence released this last week have a very similar feel to this book. And so maybe I'm sharing more here than I thought. You know this, Anna.

You told me. And I know this too. the man Spencer is actually a man named Tom Harrison who lives in Salt Lake City, who's a therapist. It's supposedly his account of this. This book was absolutely read by Lori Vallow. I know of somebody close to her who shared with me that she loved it and would read it repeatedly and started to really believe it as literal truth. Clearly Chad read it as well because again, he talks about it in his speech. Is there anything else you want to add before I share something? Did I do a good job? Is there anything else you want to have to. You mentioned that it's possible. Yeah, you did. And just as an aside, I'll tell

it quickly. So I told you, and we didn't even get into Mike and Nancy James, but they were going to, they had a, they started this preparing of people. And I know that one of the preparing of people's Spencer was going to be there. And Spencer had told somebody that he, He didn't want to have anything to do with Julie Rowe. And in fact, Julie Rowe tried to go up and give him a hug. And he said he didn't want to ever touch her or her touching him. That's Tom Harrison, Spencer.

Yeah. And he put his hand out. And he said, no, no, no, I'm sick to stop her from actually physically touching him. Okay. And he was not a fan of Julie Rose by any stretch of the imagination. Was Chad there that time? because I do know that Spencer, or Tom Harrison, aka Spencer also met Chad. I heard it was at the same time he met Julie, but it could have been a different meeting.

I don't know. That's the only, that's just a little tidbit. Somebody had told me about, you know, Spencer and Julie that he didn't want everything to do with her. He didn't want to touch her and, you know, she'd try to hug people. Oh, I told you that also that other story about the face, the spirit, evil spirit in Julie's face. remember that so i'm going to let you though go ahead and say what you're going to say about portals and visions of glory no thank you thank you well i want to i'm in touch with tom harrison oh okay tom sent me something oh wow okay cool and and just concluding although we haven't

talked about mike and nancy james yet and i think that would be a really interesting addition to this so maybe this isn't in conclusion but in conclusion to what we're talking about and it seems this this um book has a hold on a lot of people including chat and lorry and again i see a lot of you mentioned portals and i see a lot of possession in this book tom sent me something that he wrote in 2014 um apologizing for the book and also explaining that he has no ability to stop the publishing because although it's supposedly his story it was written by john pontius and the rights belong to John Pontius' family, not Spencer, not Tom Harrison. I just want to share that first off, he said the book isn't entirely accurate of

his story. And although it was experiences given to him, it was not meant to be generalized in a what will happen to the church or people as a whole. I believe much of it is a metaphor or analogy. And that's all it should be taken as. Again, so he's saying it's not real. And he also said it was not always depicted as he saw it. And then he also said that the book has caused him great grief.

despair, family discord, public ill treatment and criticism, and that he wishes that he had not shared his story. He then ends with that he holds his membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as his most prized possession. He apologizes for any injury or misunderstanding. This has caused the church, his family, or individual associated with this book. He is so sorry for any offense. This has caused any member. He wrote that all the way back in 2014, well before Chad and Lori Daybell existed. But this book I'm starting to learn really has become problematic. And so I want to share that Spencer himself has regretted this book.

I felt that should be noted for anyone listening to you today or us today. That's a really good point. And I don't doubt that that is so true because, you know, I had heard that after it was published and John Pontius died right after it got published. But that when Spencer, you know, Tom Harrison read it, some of the later edits. didn't make it into the published version. And so there are some things in there that he wasn't pleased with that were wrong. But, you know, it's, it's out there and it's taken on a life of its own.

It has. And he has taken on a life of its own. And I will be sharing at a later date with all of our listeners some things from the book that sound very similar to some texts that Chad and Lori have written to each other. I will say this. So Julie's kind of a mini celebrity, right? In her own mind, probably a major celebrity. She does have followers and they're like, I don't know.

I don't understand how somebody can just continue to follow somebody or believe what they say even after all that. But this was kind of before she was excommunicated, I believe. And, you know, she kind of had a following. So I told you when we stopped to see Jeff and Julie Rowe and she told me about she was Joan of Arc. And I told my husband, I don't want to. So when I got back to where we lived, I got a call from Nancy James. And she said, oh, I heard you stopped and visited Jeff and Julie Row. Now, I had told no one that.

So I don't know how she found out. And I know Nancy, just because of another connection, I don't really want to go into. And I said, yeah, I said, I did. And she said, well, we're doing this, we're doing this preparing a people thing. And we wanted to have her speak. She said, what's your feeling on that? And I said, I wouldn't do it. And I told her my experience.

I said I would just stay away from I said she's kind of gone off the deep end and she's like oh we already asked her to speak but in the end they ended up um they ended up having her introduce somebody so they kind of toned down her part but um so at this preparing a people somebody went up to Julie and they wanted to talk to her you know and she was talking to somebody else and she was kind of like turned to their side and so when she was done Julie was done talking to that other person she kind of turned to her person she kind of turned to her. She kind of turned to her. to talk to this person. And when the person looked at Julie's face, they didn't see her face. They saw the face of like an evil spirit. And they were so shocked that they just like, their eyes got big and they were just like, oh my gosh. And the evil spirit sense that this person could see it. And it quickly retreated back into Julie.

And then Julie's face was there. And this person, it freaked him out so much. they just left. They just like grab their stuff and just walked out and they just, you know, so I got that second hand. So I don't know who this happened to, but I wouldn't be surprised at all. I think Julie, you know, Julie talks about, she used to talk about like her, her spirit guides. And then she changed it to her angels. But I do think she's heavily influenced by spirits from the other side of the veil on. I don't think they're there, they're the of the light. Let's say that. You know.

And as far as Mike and Nancy James go, I know you don't want to get too into your relationship with them, but they've rebranded preparing to people. It's no longer preparing to people. It's Latter-day media. Do you feel like they're part of this problem? Yeah, because I asked a person who knows them. Well, a person that I know, I'm very close to who knows them, I said, after the whole Chad and Lori thing came out, I said, hey, are you going to see Mike and Nancy?

said yeah and I said asked them about Chad and they said okay so they did they said hey what about this whole thing with and this person said to me oh my gosh they said they almost had like Nancy have almost like a script memorized like oh we don't really know Chad we we don't really know him very well and it was she said it was just this whole like canned memorized you know back off from Chad thing. And and this person knows that they know Chad. Like, you know, we all do. You know, you can watch. They gave Chad his platform in my opinion. Right. They did. In fact, I would have to say that I think that they started off with good intentions. I do. But I do believe that it morphed into a platform for all these apostates and all these crazy ideas and all the late night.

you know, getting together and talking about stuff. And I believe it also was a way that Chad and Lori got together. They, they met each other through that platform. And, you know, would they have met otherwise? I don't, I don't know. I kind of think they probably wouldn't have. He was in Utah and she was in Arizona. But maybe they would have.

I don't know. But I'm telling you that those two together were like a, you know, a train wreck, you know. I know people have used other words to describe like the perfect storm. And I believe that the preparing of people, those conferences, just got these, all these like-minded people together where they fed off of each other's like, you know, apostate views. And I think it was very, it wasn't good.

I just don't think it was good at all. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's important to point that out. And you're right. I agree. I doubt they would have met. They met at a preparing a people conference in St. George, Utah.

That's now according to both Chad and Melanie Giv, that that is where they met. And like you said, who knows? Maybe they would have met somewhere else because Lori was reading Chad's books. Maybe she would have reached out to him. But preparing the people definitely facilitated a platform for Chad DeBal and his books. and his, you know, really extreme beliefs. Yeah. And actually, the person I know that, well, I know Mike and Nancy and this person that has more contact with them than I do,

they saw Nancy, I think in June. And they talked privately with her. And she was saying some things that were just like really off the wall. And this person said to me, I have never heard any of this taught in the church. She was, I don't know what she was talking about. But I, you know, this person who told me it was born and raised in the church. And they said, I've never heard any of this.

And she was saying this, you know. And she's like, it was just craziness. So I think that a lot of these people, it's really hard for them to give up this, these ideas and these thoughts and, you know. And I think that she still has some of those. And they've been very. out of it too they're making money right it's that's the thing christopher parrot's making money um you know christopher parrot and chad had this like that's the one thing about a vow was that uh christopher would

heavily promote chad on a vow and so uh you know chad would sell his books through a vow people would go you know uh to think uh different firesides or whatever he did christopher per would promote it. So Christopher Parrott. So Chad was getting all this money from selling his books. And then Christopher was getting, you know, Chad would promote Christopher in a vow and give a vow credibility. And so Christopher, you know, he's got 10,000 people who are on a vow. And he's making, you know, 40, 50 bucks a year. Plus if they join the other little thing, you know, this is quite lucrative for both of them, right? Right. And then and then it's lucrative for Julie. Because, you know, she's promoted on a vow.

She's promoted by Chad. And she promotes Chad and she promotes a vow. And she gets all this money on her energy work. And it's just like it's in it. You got to follow the money, right? Ask yourself, you know, do you sell your visions and your dreams for money? Right. Right.

And so if you're selling your dreams and your visions for money, then where, what's the motive there? You know? Right. If somebody tells you something, you know, privately and there's no money involved and you trust them and you know them, maybe, maybe, but that wasn't given to you. So I would be really careful about the whole, you know, the money issue of it. Do you know if Mike and Nancy James have been excommunicated or if that's ever been something that's the possibility or are they strong, are they good standing members of the church? I don't have never heard that. However, you have to understand that a lot of people that were in a vow and went to these things,

they never told people. They didn't go around telling people in their ward, right? That was something that was kind of like off the side, right? It's some private belief that they had, but they didn't share it with, you know, their bishop and their, you know, Relief Society president and people in their ward. That was something that was like, I can get online. And I can talk to all my buddies on PTC or on a vow. And I can share what I really believe and my dreams and my visions.

But I'm not going to, you know, not going to share this with people in my ward. Is there anything else you want to share today? Well, something that my daughter told me yesterday, which is very interesting, right? Well, so first of all, we were talking about I read her part of the novel. And she. The novel meaning the love story between that Chad wrote. Lori Davis. Yeah, I asked her if she'd heard of it and she said, no, and I said, I'll read some of it to you. And she was like totally disgusted. And we were talking a lot about it. And so she had kind of lost my train of thought.

But I will tell you that my daughter is a nurse. And she was a nurse in Utah. She's not there anymore. but she was the nurse for a family member who was having a baby. And this family members, another family member that we all know, she was doing foot zoning on her to help her with the delivery. Now she was induced, okay? And she said to me, she goes, Mom, she said, I have never ever seen somebody that quickly have their baby. Like she was doing the foot zoning and she said, I don't know if there's anything to it.

She said, but that's what she was there to do was to help her have the baby fast. And she said it was like she started foot zoning her and boom. It was like crazy. And it was her first baby. So she said to me and I said, well, you know, I said sometimes these things were. work, right? Or we don't know. Maybe she would have had the baby that quick. But you can see where the anecdotal story of, oh, I know somebody who'd have their foot zoning and they were cured of cancer or cancer went away or her baby came super fast. That was a whole purpose. But I do know that I

had read somewhere that in Australia they have socialized medicine. And so the government's going to pay for things, right? And so the government looked into foot zoning to see. see if they would pay for it. And they did a big study on it because, you know, if it's a true, you know, repeatable, you know, method of healing, like maybe acupuncture because, you know, or chiropractor, which they pay for, which some people think are a little fringe, you know, that they would go ahead and cover it and their health insurance plan. And they did this big, long study and they came up with that, no, it is not.

It's not a true scientific healing modality. that and they weren't going to pay for it. So anyway, that's kind of off topic. And you don't even have to include. Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate you sharing that. Right. That's important.

That's important to share. Anna, I ask everybody this. Why did you decide to do this interview today? I decided to do the interview today because I feel like there's still a lot of these false beliefs out there. And there's people that still hang on to them. And they need to know that, you know, that Chad and Laurie went down a really bad road and that the things that led them down that road, they need to be aware of, for example, I believe that energy healing is one of those things that took them down that road. I believe that the idea of multiple mortal probations is another idea that took them down that road.

and, you know, the church has come out against energy healing. It hasn't said anything that I know about multiple mortal probations, but I've never once heard it ever talked about. In all the years I've been a member of the church, I've never heard anybody ever speak of that. It's basically reincarnation. And I know the church has said, we don't believe in reincarnation. So I just, I think the most important thing is that I want people to know that you can come back to the simple truths and foundations of the gospel and get yourself aligned with that and you know just like just stop and say you know maybe i should focus more on that rather than these these these things that are

kind of out there and i hope people would do that i hope people would kind of give it up you know and just say you know maybe that's wrong and just do it maybe out of just obedience you know that hey the came out against the energy healing, I'm just going to walk away from it. Just out of obedience, even if you think that there's something to it. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden, a True Crime podcast for exclusive content, thinks Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime.

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