Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: An Interview with Chad Daybell's friend Eric Smith

Episode Date: February 9, 2024

As we prepare for Chad Daybell’s trial —scheduled for April, 2024– we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For those new to this twisted case about Doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, and to better understand future episodes-we recommend our full Beyond the Veil season, but if you don't have that time, we have one episode summarizing everything you need to know. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, it’s our May 2nd, 2023 episode titled: "Beyond the Veil: The prequel -Chad daybell and Lori Vallow - the background story you’ve never heard." Lauren wrote and produced the episode so HTC listeners can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour.   Now, back to THIS episode. This is an refreshingly honest interview with Eric Smith that was originally recorded in 2021. It explores the unique beliefs Chad Daybell preached including living in past lives, visions, zombies and more. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the Lori Vallow trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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until now. For many of our listeners, they understand the Lori Vallow Chad Daybill case. But for those new to this twisted case about doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, to better understand future episodes, I really recommend our entire. Beyond the Veil season. But hey, I also realize we don't all have time to listen to an entire season. So I took care of that for you, summarizing everything in a single episode. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on the Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow case, it is our May 2nd, 2023 podcast episode titled Beyond the Vale, the prequel, Chad Daybel and Lori Valo, the background story you've never heard. You can also find this on our YouTube channel

if you want the visuals. I wrote and produced this episode for that very reason so everyone can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour. For any of your friends who need the basics so that they two can follow along into the next months and into Chad's trial, send them that May 2nd 2023 episode to get them started. Now, back to this episode we're about to listen to. This is an interview that explores the unique beliefs Chad Daybell preached. It's an interview of a little bit of a with Eric Smith, a friend of Chad Daybell and Julie Roe. To refresh your memory, Julie Roe is a woman whose near-death experience books Chad published. They were books that Lori Valo and Alex Cox both read and studied. Eric Smith and Julie Roe were once very close to Chad Daybell and preached

many of his same beliefs. We've talked about Eric Smith before, and he was mentioned several times in an interview we did with a woman who calls herself Girl on Fire. You can find that episode on our YouTube channel under the title, Julie Row cult leader or spiritual healer. Now, after that interview with Girl on Fire in 2021, I read a statement from Eric about his belief system in multiple probation. It's a type of reincarnation. Eric explained how Chad had become overzealous in determining who was who in their past life and that Chad would use a pendulum to determine a person's past life. Eric was excommunicated from the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in 2020 for standing by his unique beliefs in

multiple probation. This interview with Eric and myself was originally recorded in 2021, before Hidden True Crime even had a good microphone, so forgive the sound from my end. At the end of this interview, I'll share some additional thoughts I believe are important as I look back on this interview three years later. I have been wanting to talk to you since December of 2019. And I first heard about you. So I'm really honored that you would talk to me today and that you'd be willing. So thank you.

That's a pleasure. Thank you too. I do remember emails coming through back then and your name does ring a bell. So I'm not glad. I like the work you do. I've gotten a couple of your books. I have finished this one, multiple probations, a lost doctor remembered by Gregory Christensen and Eric Smith.

Right. By Julie Rowe. I'm almost through this one. I was trying to finish it last night. But I've read the majority of it, the Church of the Firstborn, Gregory Christensen, Eric Smith, edited by Julie Rowe. So I have been looking forward to this interview and preparing for it. Doing your homework.

Yes. Yes. And I have a lot. lot of questions for you, but I also want you to be able to share what you want to share and you feel important. I've seen you do some interviews and I know that the nature of that I've been a TV reporter, they have to cut it short. They only have so much a lot of time in a show. So I want to give you the opportunity today too to be able to share anything that you've wanted to share and I will be willing to share that publicly. That sounds good. Thank you. Let me tell you the history of how

I've learned about you. I have been following this case from the very first day it hit the media, the day bell case. And then I recall the first video I saw with Julie Roe and you were in it. And since that time, I've watched a lot of videos with you and Julie Roe and then some with just you. I learned that you had some beliefs that went off the path of the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's, I think what you've said so far as fair. Okay. And you were excommunicated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And when did that happen? That was June 2nd of 2020. Of 2020. Okay. Yeah. Then I interviewed Girl on Fire. I will call her Girl on Fire. I know that you know who she is too.

Girl on fire and her husband, Paul. I reached out to you before that interview was really saying, hey, if you want to say something, you can. So with all that being said, could we start with your statement a little bit that you? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that's good. I don't have it. So hopefully you do. Well, in it, you shared how you learned about multiple probations.

And I think that the public knows multiple probations, let's be honest, through Chad Deba, right? That's how the entire world was introduced to that belief. And so why don't you share with us what your belief in multiple probation is and how you came across it? So in about 2014 or 15, I started a blog called Doctrinal Essays. And I was just going through this kind of awakening of I just knew there was more in life, more than just living the day to day, even going to church week after week. And I just fell in love with the gospel. And I started researching and just diving deeper into the gospel than I had previously. And it became really satisfying to me.

So then I just wanted to start there because I want to. I want you to feel like my love for knowledge and truth. And I just realize there's more to be had than what's coming across church pulpits. And to me, like I had to go through this little journey of overcoming some fear of doing so because there's a bit of an expectation in LDS culture to stay in the box, you know, and really only look for truth in things that have the church's logo on it. And that was fine. I love the church and I love the things it teaches.

I just know there's more. And I felt I started to feel safe going outside of the box and looking to, you know, let's just say Confucius or even other, you know, Catholic priests who have said inspirational things or other religions. And I just, I've found goodness everywhere in so many places. And so anyway, I just, I love learning. I love truth. I know that it's to be found in lots of different places.

So that's really the beginning of where multiple probation started for me. Because along the way, and I honestly don't remember, but it was something like 2016, maybe 2017, I don't know, I'm lousy with dates, Lauren, okay? You got to understand this about me. So I can, if people are going to fact check me on dates, trust me, I'll make errors. I just do that. Good to know. Good to know. Yeah. You're not promising any exact dates. That's right. Right. For whatever reason, I'm just kind of blocked on that, but on dates and years and stuff. But it was about that time that I think I was on some websites and it was a recurring pattern. You know how this happens. Sometimes you're on one website and they mention, you know, reincarnation or something. And then another website mentions it. And then I just, I decided to research it and learn about it. And,

And it started feeling really inspired to me, a lot of the things I was reading. And I could recognize in the inherent belief and doctrine of reincarnation that there are false things about it. But I expect that. I mean, I don't, I've learned over the years that I can't go to any website or to any church or into any book and realize like that it's 100% correct. So I'm okay going to sources that have some false teachings. I just kind of filter those out, you know, and I like to use the Holy Ghost to do that. And it works pretty good for me.

So anyway, I just started researching that deeper and deeper. And that was right at the peak of my, I guess, my journey with Julie Roe. We were writing her biography. We had just finished her biography and started exploring these things. We all did it independently. that from the beginning because that's actually one of my questions how did you start writing julie rose autobiography well okay let's let's go back in history there or biography or was she writing it or were you writing it i wrote i wrote her biography she narrated it to me and i i had to synthesize it and put it

together in a coherent like a ghost writer right right yeah well that that story starts in 2014 or 15 about the same time I was kind of waking up. Julie had just released her books, her near-death experience books. She and Chad went on a, on a. Is it this one? Was this her first? No, that's her third book. Okay. Her third. Thank you. I really, I wasn't sure. Okay. This is her third book. Right. The first two she wrote were about her near-death experience and Chad kind of synthesized. helped her write those. That book you just held up is a combination of the two, written more for a general audience, but I'll leave that to Julie to talk about if you feel interested to talk to her. She and Chad came to Rexburg at a speaking event. There were

probably 2,000 people there at the Rexburg Tabernacle, and I was there. That was the first time I had seen her. I was very interested in that, and I thought it was a great meeting, well-attended, And I became very curious about Chad and Julie and who these people were. I was interested. I had read probably a dozen, at least a dozen near-death experience books by that time. Because I was getting, from those books, I was getting this spirit of prophecy that I had been missing in my church meetings, you know. Frankly, and I don't mean any disrespect to the LDS church, but I don't see prophecy. I don't see warning.

And I was getting that from the books that I was reading, which was really awesome for me. So Julie sends out an email a short time later to those who have been following her, asking for help and volunteers with her relief organization. And I just mentioned some of my professional skills and thought that they might be useful to her. And she said that they would be. And something like a year went by before we really had any contact after that. And then so about this time, it's 2016, the end of 2016, I think. And that's when maybe 17. I honestly don't remember.

That's when we decided to start writing her book together. She knew I had some writing skills and recording skills. And she basically started narrating her history to me. And so it turned into her biography. Okay. And then how did you get into multiple probation? Sure. When I first heard of it, and I don't remember what the situation was, it was a website or something,

my heart burned within me huge, big time. Like, whoa, this is true. I know it is. I don't understand anything about it, but I know I'm supposed to study it. I know it's true. And so I started, but I have to say, I, I, I, I, love this this earth i think it's a beautiful place but i don't i don't love i don't love life sometimes it's it's hard and if there's anybody who doesn't think so they're lying to themselves or something this life

could be really hard and so so i struggled and wrestled with the idea of knowing something was true that i may potentially come back here again in another life or that i'd done it before and i didn't want to. And so I for several months, six months, I wrestled with that with God and had very, very heartfelt tender conversations with him about this. And one piece of information led to another. And I just, I just became more informed, more educated on it. And it, it became less of a, of a grievance to me. And I started to see how this belief system is, is beautiful. It filled in whole. in my understanding of, you know, let's say the plan of salvation or the eternities and how these things work over time. And it explained things to me like the complicated marriage

situations I'd seen in people that I knew who had lost spouses and had remarried. And, you know, there was one couple in particular, an older couple. And I knew both of them had lost their previous spouses and married each other and they fell in love. And yet I knew they loved their previous spouses. And so there are unanswered questions in the LDS Church about those complex relationships. And frankly, the doctrine, the belief system of multiple lives, reincarnation, probation, whatever you want to call it, just filled in the gaps and gave you. me answers that I was looking for. So that was cool. And so Julie's, Julie was my very good friend at the time and we, we talked and compared notes. We didn't research it together at all. But I would say, hey, I learned this is, what do you understand about that? And she would, you know, confirm or clarify. And I did the same for her. And, and then I was starting to become more comfortable in talking. talking about it with my close friends. And I had a couple of close close friends that I mentioned this to. And they, you know, expectedly kind of refused it at first. It's like, well, maybe, but I don't think so, you know. And so it's fine. You know, it's like, hey, that's your journey. I've got mine. And one of these, these guys was, was close to Chad Daybell as well. We were, we were all kind of a group. We would meet once in a while and talk with Chad and Julie or.

Yeah. And friends that you're not necessarily naming, but close friends. Right. Like a group maybe that kind of believed in this or? Yeah, a small group. Well, at that point, I mean, we hadn't talked about probation as a group. Up to that point, it was all this effort to, you know, basically help Julie and her relief organization, which is all about creating safe houses in days of trouble ahead, right?

That was what brought our group together was Julie's organization. And was this happening in Rexburg? Are you in Rexburg? Yeah, I'm in the Rexberg area. Sorry, Rexberg area. Yeah, East Idaho, we can say. Yeah. And there were several others that are in that area, but there are people scattered up and down the Wasatch, you know. So this would happen in the East Idaho area or Rexburg area. Julie was in Kansas. Would she visit a lot or was she in Idaho a lot? How did that work? Yeah, she lived in Kansas. She came over on, you know, group meetings as she felt directed to. One year, she came quite often. You know, there are other years. She didn't come very much. Okay. And I know you're not good with dates, but roughly, do you know what year this is, is? Well, what?

So when you're so sorry, yeah, when you're starting to meet, it's not necessarily about multiple probation, but you guys are getting together with a group of people. Chad is a part of it. Julie's a part of it. You're a part of it. Quite a few others that we won't necessarily name. It's probably 2017. And it started with a small group of people.

And it kind of snowballed and just got bigger. And as Julie reached out to other people, I remember people coming from Colorado and southern Utah and Arizona and stuff. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. And so you'd get together with this group and share. And what did it feel like?

in these groups? Well, I have to say, like, what I've been talking about so far, like, multiple probation, that was always really intimate. That was just a couple people. That was, that was never really discussed in a group setting, you know? So, and it was, and that was sparse, just as, you know, once in a while, I'd call somebody or go to somebody's house and just kind to talk about things. But I think you're talking about the larger group meetings that Julie did. I'd rather kind of leave all that to her. But generally to answer your question,

there were, she held group meetings, I don't know, in 2017, 2018, I don't know, three, four, six times a year at most or something. and honestly, I don't know a lot about, I don't really know what the purpose of those meetings was, but just to kind of spread the vision she had of her relief organization, you know, rescue missions and safe houses and that kind of thing. Okay. Thank you.

And would you, and I, you know, I hope to interview her one day. You know, a lot of people say that Chad Davis, Bell's belief system started here. And so I guess I'm trying to find out if this is it where it started. Would he be a part of these groups? So, so again, at this point, no groups. There's no group. Okay. There's no group gathering. It's just, it's just me chatting with friends, just a couple friends, too, not even, not many at all. So, but there's this one friend in particular that I was talking about. I'd go to his house and just kind of pitch this belief system to him. And a few weeks, went by maybe months and he came back to me and he was like, you know what? I've been researching and it's

true. And I'm telling you, this guy was emotional and he's a big guy. And it was nice for me to have that validation from him. But anyway, he was on his own path and he was just telling me what he had learned and how he felt. It was true. He told me later a couple times that he pitched that to Chad, the whole belief system in multiple lives. And Chad at first denied it, refused it, didn't believe it. And then basically had the same experience as my friend. Some time goes by, I don't know, a month or two, three months maybe. And they're talking about it more at length. And Chad just dove in. And he, he ate it up. And then maybe a few months later, by that time, I had started just asking the Lord questions about my own history of who I've been, where I've lived, and, you know, there's familiar patterns in

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And he was getting things. He came to my house one day. And at this point, I think he did have his necklace that everybody talks about. He'd swing it and get his yes, no answers. He, so he validated some of what I had gotten on myself. And he sort of became this authority figure on all things, multiple probation. If you want to know who you've been, you go to me kind of thing. And he said at that first visit we had, I'm getting pretty good at this.

I have some natural abilities in determining these things. And to clarify for everyone listening to this, what we're saying, multiple probation, some want to call it reincarnation. I know that's not your favorite term, but meaning you live before in a different life. And Chad saying he's getting really good at knowing who people are in their past lives. Yeah. Okay. Sorry.

Go ahead. No, I just did but to clarify. Yeah. That's good clarification. he yeah so he he's he became so curious and i think he did recognize and i'll be honest i think he does chad is gifted there is no denying it okay and anybody who says otherwise is is probably not being truthful with themselves people are spiritually gifted i believe all of us have spiritual gifts and a lot of people are empathic and can read people's energy and hearts and you know chad had some of that

Chad, definitely. How is he gifted? Well, he had a thin veil. He could see and discern things on the other side of the veil. He could see energies. The thing that I've learned, and I've been around a lot of, say, gifted people in this way, in the visionary aspect, knowing, discerning things on the other side of the veil. Julie has exceptional gifts. And then I've met several others that are the same, that are visionary.

see things discern things on the other side of the sea spirits talk to spirits feel their energy even smell them their senses are just different than most of us and i'm totally comfortable with that the thing that i've learned is that with these folks they they are open but but that doesn't just guarantee that they're open to light and so there are other voices there are hidden voices dark voices call them satanic voices if you want and and all of them who have those guests struggle with discerning between the two um for my experience i so i've learned you know what listen to these guys and gals and see what they have to say but you have to take it to the spirit and and oftentimes they're not getting pure revelation you know sure so with chad's uh thin veil and his gifts and he

saying he was getting good at being able to tell who people were in past lives. Do you feel that was a gift of his that he could tell or do you think? Yeah, I really do. I do think that he, for whatever reason, he was tapping into some source that gave him insight. But I know he wasn't always correct. But I do know sometimes he was. And anyway, we can go into that a little more. But he, and then it started pure. was a very humble Chad and he he was all the way through the time I knew him until things broke on TV minus about a year he I did notice a shift about a year before all the news broke about him he he became more withdrawn from me from Julie from the group from people and just um I just I didn't know what was up but he just he just became withdrawn and and once in a while

I met him or texted him and he was just more distant, more standoffish, less willing to meet and talk about those things. So that was, there was a change there. But I always believed him to be an honest and humble guy, you know, quirky and odd, but I'll just be honest. I get along well with quirky people. That's kind of, that's because I'm one of them. So I fit it. but he but a genuine sincere good-hearted good-natured guy you know very like many many describe him as humble or soft-spoken or kind of yeah quiet so what you're saying brings true to how

other people that new chat have described him but you're saying there was a shift in and so would you say like in 2018 um when did all this story break so yeah no that's a great question i know so i'll help you with some dates because i know it's confusing for you so 2000 December 2019 is when it broke in the media and it was December 26th 2019 that you um recorded julie or interviewed julie row who stayed who stood by chat at that time right right and you actually said something interesting, I want to say, in that video, because you said, Julie, there's a lot of compelling evidence against Chad. I sense that you were actually kind of looking back and looking, you do seek evidence. Speaking of news media, Julie, you know, as I watch these, they're making a

pretty compelling case about some of the accusations against them. Do you think it's possible that Chad and his new wife, Lori, are innocent of any foul play that all these aces? Not only is it possible. I know he is. I know Chad Daybell's heart. I know him. And I don't believe he has it in him to hurt any child or

his wife. He's raised five amazing, beautiful kids. It's well said. I'm just a witness to everything you just said. Thank you. I guess we'll wrap it up. Thank you for tuning in, folks. I would like to just personally ask you to put all judgment aside until the facts

come out. We live in a very judgment culture. Let's just wait. Wait till the truth comes out. You didn't say one way or another. You said let the facts play out, but you did say there was compelling evidence. But Julie was standing by Chad, and I think for the most part you likely were too, although you didn't give your opinion in that. Yeah, I think that's fair to say. I still stood by him, but I was, but there was a lot of coming out that was pretty compelling. Yeah. But I think I relinquished some of, my own sovereignty and independent thinking and gave it all to Julie, frankly. She started saying things that were comforting. Like, no, the media has got it wrong. He's innocent in this.

I can't remember exactly what she said. But in all these stories that are going out, I think one of the bigger concerns is that the children are okay, the two children. Can you see, do you see anything, hear anything, feel anything with regard to the those two children? I deal in human trafficking and soul trafficking every day. This is part of my life. In what way? Can you explain how? On a spiritual level, I spirit

travel, I go over this, I go over all this whole galaxy and there's soul trafficking going on, and there's human trafficking on this planet. I have emergency disaster relief, safe houses. I am not hiding Chad or his kids. Keep going. I did ask that question about the two children, which is, I think, is one of the big questions people have in their minds. Are they okay?

I am in such an uproar. about the backstory being twist and turned and people not knowing and they get all this fear and anxiety and manipulation and control and yada yada and they believe the authorities and they believe the media when they should be actually listening to like what their heart tells them and get rid of their fear energy and maybe like ask your guardian angel but you know we don't live in a world like that the kids are safe and and it actually comforted me i was like good you know what I want to believe that this is my friend. I don't want to believe all the bad stuff.

That makes complete sense. That's why we believe. That is very often why humans set aside compelling evidence is because we don't want to believe. Right. Sometimes the thing we want someone to tell us it's, you know, don't worry, it's okay. So that's actually some really interesting insight. It felt comforting to know that the media had it wrong. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to believe they had it wrong. At that point, I was pretty emotionally invested in Chad. I really believed in his gifts and everything and especially things that he saw about the latter days and time scenarios. We had, by that time, you know, when the media broke out and everything, I had probably been in, I don't know, 10 meetings with him total. And that's group meetings and probably three, four, maybe four, maybe four. five individual meetings, just one on one, where we talked about things. And so we had bonded

quite a bit at that time. We were, I consider him a dear friend. And so it was, yeah, the denial when that stuff hit the media was just, it was, it was big. And I, yeah, anybody who watches that podcast will see it. We, we really believed he was innocent. Yeah, thanks for sharing that and helping me understand that. Again, I remember watching that. I think it was the day you guys put it out of the day after. That's how invested I was because I remember it was December 26th and it was Christmas time. I had my parents in town and I even had my dad watch it. Welcome to eyes open. Today is December 26, 2019. I'm Eric Smith and I'm interviewing Julie Rowe. Although, I mean, I will say there were some things in it that were hard to listen to from an outsider's perspective when I heard

But Julie said that Chad had told her that Tammy was going to die. I asked him three weeks before she died. Chad, are you still seeing Tammy dying? And he said, yes, but I don't know how. And I don't remember what else he said about it other than I said, I had been asking too. And then my angel said, yes, she's going to go. She's almost graduated for mortality.

That was my introduction to Julie. And so that was overwhelming to me as someone that was already learning that Chad was in the news and then hearing that. I'm going to be honest, that was an overwhelming moment to hear that. Well, I can add to that a little if you want. Yeah. Yeah, please, please. They, uh, I should let Julie cover this if you, if you get that opportunity. But, but, but I'll just simply say, I did hear talk of Tammy passing a good, a good year, maybe two years before that he saw that as something that was coming. I would just take notes here and there, write my journal and kind of record stuff, little snippets. And that was something that was

talked about once in a while. Okay. Well, you know, and I know we're not going in a linear guideline, but like you say something, I have another question. We'll go with it. Because, you know, in all of my interviews with people and in listening to people, I've now heard, heard speculation that a lot of spouses were going to die. Tammy was speculated and you heard that too that she was going to die and she died. Charles was one of those. I don't know if you heard that or not, but clearly Lori Debel, Lori Valo then speculated that Charles was going to die and was killed by Alex.

And then Julie has stated that she has seen Jeff row, her exonerated. ex-husband was going to die. And I've heard that Joel Gervine speculated that his wife was going to die. And so it is a concerning pattern I've seen. And I don't know if I have them all right, but this is what I've heard. Another pattern that happens with these people is that we notice a lot of their spouses were supposed to die. Joel told me that his wife was supposed to. let me let me just add my bit there i never knew the valos lory i didn't even know lory's name didn't know she existed until did you ever forward and did you ever meet lory no never did i didn't know she existed until the media brought her her name forward yeah and um so i didn't know

about that i did hear about tammie i did hear about jeff but and i i'd never heard that about Joel Gervine. It's a pattern I'm seeing. Was it ever concerning to anyone? You kind of already explained it at the beginning of this that multiple probation made you feel peace and bring you a lot of answers to like when spouses die

and you can fall in love twice. You get remarried. It kind of brought you those answers. And so it could be that maybe spouses dying was a part of that understanding of multiple am I making sense? Yeah. As an outsider looking at the pattern, I'm thinking, whoa, because I'm already hearing from

the very outset, I'm hearing two spouses are already dead, right? So that was my infection into this. And so when I start hearing other spouses have been predicted to die, it feels really, yeah, overwhelming to me. Yeah, definitely. I hear you. I see how that looks in the outside. I feel like people were just preparing for the worst in a lot of ways because if you go backwards

and read the near-death experience books, okay, they talk about, which most people, I would say all people in the Julie Chad, you know, Latter-day End Time scenario prepping-minded people had all read multiple near-death experience books. And one thing all those books have in common is visions or depictions of latter-day scenes when there's great destruction. And by the way, this is all biblical and prophesied. So I don't think we need to just put this on the visionary people that have been coming out in the last several years. But it is prophecy that there will be great destructions.

And John the Revelator talked about a huge number of people being taken from the earth. Isaiah had six references that I've found that talk about the great number of people that will be called home in the last days. And so at this time then, where you are in this narrative, people are mindful that there's going to be a destruction. And I think a lot of people are preparing for the worst. What would my life be like without a spouse? How would I get by? what you know do I know even know my bank account number my wife handles all that stuff would I be prepared to handle the financial planning and management um do I even know where the band-aids are in that in my house you know those kinds of things and so so I think it was common for people to

consider the possibility of losing a spouse and how they would cope you know what I mean so when Chad's veil was thin, as you say, would he go, I've heard a couple of different accounts of Chad and another person going door to door or visiting people. One account was from Sean Little Bear. Sean Little Bear said Chad and Julie wanted to meet with him to tell him who he was. Was this something Chad and Julie would do? I know one conference we went to Rexburg, and Julie Roe requested to meet with me alone. Her and Chad Daybell were at a house, and they sent me a message, and Mike and Nancy came over, and they said, Julie is requesting to meet with you alone.

And at that time, my wife was my fiancé. We didn't find out until later that Chad and Julie wanted to share with me that I had a previous life. And in that previous life, I was Samuel the Lamanite. And go door to door, how did they go and tell people who he felt they were in past lives? No, no, Julie wasn't involved. that stuff at all. Chad sort of took this role, this calling on himself to identify people. And then he would go door to door. He came to me to my office one day and my home and we talked about things. And I heard of him going to other friends house. You know, door to door sounds a little, it's not like

You're right. Okay. Yeah, that's fair. That's not the best term. So people that were on his radar, people that he was interested in who he, I think he had visions about probably, I don't know, I'm just guessing there. But I do know he went to people's homes and shared that in sort of a personal, special experience, you know. But then there's also the group meetings where Chad would go to people's homes and have like a fireside. And those were, I went to probably three, four of those. And those were always book promotional, right? He had his books and he would talk about what's coming and people would ask him questions. And so he did those kinds of group meetings a fair bit.

I think he and Julie would talk and stuff, but I don't know what they talked about. And I think they would probably talk about people's past lives and just compare their own visionary skills and what they saw and understood and that kind of thing. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. because I'm just relaying what people have said. So again, there's the Sean Little Bear story where he said that Julie and Chad were trying to meet with him to tell him who he once was in a past life. Then there's a story of girl on fire and her husband, Paul, who state that Chad and Julie would, you know, kind of try to tell people in general, who they were in past probation.

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Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. So we have lived before as different people in throughout history. That makes sense. And who is saying this? Julie. Julie. Joel. Eric.

Obviously Chad believed it. Chad knew and he had talked to a lot of these people himself. They would go to his house and discuss this with him. And I don't know if they ever felt like, hey, I feel like I'm Alma the younger. Chad, am I Alma the younger? Chad showed up to this person's house and said, okay, I'm here to talk to you about multiple probations. What do you want to know?

It seems to me like Chad and Julie would both receive something right about the same time. like within a short period of time from each other. And they would call each other, call each other and then say, hey, what do you think about this? And then there's a story of, I talked to a Dustin Thane who said that Chad and another person visited him. Chad asked if he could speak with me. I mean, we're from the same town. He lives up the road a little bit.

An acquaintance. I did not know him well. So he came over with a friend. They asked to speak with me away from my wife, which was a little odd. They took me to a place in my house, and he began to explain what he had been into in a pendulum, and he was asking these questions, and he told me what level of light I was and listed all these people that he thought that I was in a, what did you call it, another probation? Anyway, an uncomfortable situation.

I sat through it, listened to him, and that was about it. He called it family history. I remember a few of the people that he said that I was, which made me very uncomfortable. They told me that I was not to speak to my wife about it. Do you know who Chad would go with? So Destin didn't want to say who the other person was, but he said, Chad and another person.

Was it people going with Chad? Would he go alone? I don't know that. You don't know. I don't know. The few times I met with Chad, he was just alone. So I don't know. Thank you.

Yeah. Thanks for just sharing what you know and what you don't know. And would he take his necklace with him to, was the necklace always part of this process, his visionary process? Like, not early on. I don't know. Like, I don't know what he did at other people's houses. But for me, like the first time we met, I don't think he had. at it, but a short time later, he had found that necklace at a church building. And he,

he did start using that more. I probably saw him use that three times, you know, maybe twice. Did he tell everybody he found it at a church building or is that just something everybody learned? I don't know. I can speak for myself. He did tell me that he found it at a church. And this, you know, he said the spirit told him to keep it and, and dedicate it, bless it. and, you know, and so that's all I remember. Okay, so he felt it was given to him as a tool. Yeah. Okay.

Tell us about, this was part of your statement that you shared with us in response to Girl on Fire's interview. Tell us about who Chad said you were in a past probation. A lot of these teachings came from Eric Smith because he was known in the group as a very insightful. He was Isaiah in a previous life. He was Isaiah. So he's very doctrinally sound, quote unquote. Yeah. So how do you like that? Well, okay, so let me clarify. Like, again, I think I said this earlier. I had done my own research and been praying quite a lot on my own. I was not interested in learning about other people early on. I did get there.

but no, I was just interested in my own journey, my own history, and had come to the conclusion of many things. Chad came along and he came up with two or three others that I had not considered. And I was like, well, okay, you know, that's cool. I didn't get that, but I'll kind of go. I played, I went along with it. And I believed him, you know, for a while. So a lot of people said it wasn't just Chad or Julie. There were many others that said, I reminded them of Isaiah.

And I mean, thank you for the thought. If anybody's had that, I think it's humbling. I do have connections with Isaiah. I feel close to him. I love him. But I'm not alone in that. I know many do like millions of people do. And I've even had special visuals.

and just understanding of things pertaining to Isaiah's life that are personal, you know, and that just kind of endear me to him and his mission. And so it was easy for me to take that on, to accept it. I shouldn't say it was easy because when you start to consider those things, could I have been this person? It's heavy. And the first thought people have is, I don't want to be, you know, conceded. I don't want to like, I'm not that great. I'm just a normal dude, you know.

But by and by, I think, I think it's okay for people to just consider these things. And it's not like you're a bad person. If you really believe the doctrine is true, then of course you're going to naturally be curious about who you were. And at some point, you've got to reconcile the idea that you could have been certain people. The problem is when ego gets in there. And if you ever hear anybody saying, I was so-and-so in a past life. It's like, you know what? I don't think so.

Because if you were, you're not going to be flaunting it like that. And I never did flaunt. I never did tell people unless they asked or they told me they thought I was somebody. I would have said, you know, that's a possibility. But I've never been so convinced of any of my past probations that I would go tell people. And anyway, on the Isaiah a bit, I do not think I was Isaiah, but I feel like there's a close connection. Maybe I was alive.

Maybe I was one of the priests in his court. Maybe I was a ministering angel. These are real possibilities. And I know this is unusual and people are probably laughing at that, but these are real possibilities. And to every one of your listeners right now who think it's funny, it's just as much a possibility for them as it is for me and chat or anybody. we it's it's you know a vast majority of the world's population believes in this principle it's and if you read multiple variations our book you'll find that um well we just talk about constantine and how that council of nicaea that's often talked about when um constantine pulls this council together and says look we need to set a standard set of scriptures for our people to to to Because at that time, there were three sects of religious people. There was the Gnostics and the other one's slipping my mind right now,

but sort of the more what became the Catholic side of Christianity. There was the other group. I don't know why it's slipping in my mind, but. That's okay. You make a big Hindu connection. And that's there, but I'm talking about another Christian sect who followed Christ. But anyway, the point is there were all these texts and factions in Christianity. And at this point, where three, four hundred years passed Christ's crucifixion.

And there's some dispute about what he actually taught. And there were records floating around in the little parishes and churches and chapels and people's attics or whatever back then. and Constantine wanted to set a standard and lots of scriptures were left. These scriptures, I'm totally convinced, were edited, filtered out, inconvenient doctrines were left out. And I'm just certain multiple probations. That idea was scrubbed out. But the cool thing is whoever was editing those scriptures, those priests Constantine

appointed didn't understand the doctrine well enough to totally scrub it. out of the scriptures. And so there are remnants. There are, there are a handful of scriptures. And I just think of these as just the biggest treasures and gems in there that just scream at the belief of reincarnation. And, and they're there for the truth seekers as just like this little cherry on top. It's like, thank you for leaving that. They missed it. You know, it's like, yes. So, anyway, I'm kind of on a rant here. I don't you know what you're going. I love it. This is your, again, this is your opportunity too. Eric, I could ask you 10 billion questions.

I've got a list. So you also share what you want to share and go on that, you know? Okay. Well, let's leave it there. I mean, I am just excited that those precious nuggets remain in the Bible. In other apocryphal scriptures, like the Ascension of Isaiah, like the Mentana records, there's just, there's a number of other apocryphal records that that elude to, in some cases explicitly talk about past lives.

And it's just, here was the point I was making most people in the world believe it. It's a core part of, and it's so basic and common sense to them. Most people inherently know, how do you become like God, especially in the LDS Church that teaches man can become as God? How can you do that in one life? You know what I mean? And consider like an infant or a stillborn. you know, somebody with no mortal experience comes to Earth, they get a body, they die,

and are you telling me that that person qualifies to become an exalted God? It just, it's laughable compared to like Manasseh, somebody who lived 900 plus years, who has tons of mortal experience, who's gained wisdom, who's definitely seen, you know, loved ones pass on, who's been through hardship. and that spirit is more tempered now and through their mortal experience. And so it's the idea that one life is all you get is it's honestly, and I don't mean this in a mocking way, but it's totally laughable.

It's super ignorant. And so if you look at the world's population today, you just have most of the world the leaves in it, and then you have Christians that don't. And why don't the Christians? Because they're all reading the same Catholic Bible that was scrubbed by Emperor Constantine and his priests. You know what I mean? So to clarify for those listening, and I want to actually clarify for me too, because I've read your book.

One unique part of Mormon theology, you just mentioned it, is the idea of eternal progression. Is that a good way to say it? that people lived before they were born as spirits. And in scriptures, this life is often referred to as a probationary state. And a time to prepare to meet God. Right. That's Alma. That's Alma. In the Book of Mormon.

And then post this life, there's this idea in Mormon or LDS, theology. I use Mormon as a movement because, again, many, there are many Mormon offshoots, right? And you also have been, you have been excommunicated, but still believe in very much of the Mormon foundational teachings. Is that correct? Yeah, definitely. Right. The idea of eternal progression, I would say, is a unique part of Mormon theology, right? And so what I, what I gathered from you just now and what I gathered from your book, And so I'm just sort of receding it to make sure I understand is the belief that that eternal progression, that, you know, people can continue growing and continue gaining knowledge and continue learning throughout eternity.

Does it happen unless you can live again and again to have a probationary state again and again and again. Is that a fair way? And if you want to clarify and explain more, go ahead. But that's what I gathered from what you just. said now and from your book and i don't know if yeah i know i think you said it well it's what my buddy matt who's a who's a co-author with me and he's he's a contributor to my blog he it's what he termed single probation doctrine is what most christians believe and most mormons believe um the idea you come to earth once and you you know you die the the teaching

is really hazy in the church if you ask about premortality you'll you know to any church or a church leader, you're going to get something like, well, you know, we live there. There's a big happy family as spirits. And if you're like, what were we doing? It's just kind of like, you know, I don't know. Don't worry about it. It'll come when you need it, you know. And it's like, well, what were we doing?

Oh, you know, I don't know. We were playing harps. We were, nobody knows. So there's this huge hole there. And then afterlife, it's the same thing. What do we do after this life? And how do we become like God? well, they'll talk about judgment. You know, God gives us judgment and assigns you to a kingdom.

And there you are for eternity. And there's no progression. There's no movement. You, you are, you're stuck for eternity. I remember hearing that when I was in primary. I don't know. I must have been six, five or six. And when I heard that you're stuck in that place forever, I, there was an emotional reaction. that I clung to, and I've held on to it ever since, and I'm 42, I'm looking back, I know the spirit was talking to me as a little kid saying, that's not true. There's more to this. Now, I'm not faulting the church. I think they're giving the basic understanding, and it's what their teaching is not necessarily false, but it's just grossly incomplete. There is so much missing. And again, I'm not faulting them, I think it's probably necessary because I think most people are even struggling to grasp just

what they have there. But for those who are searching, who are hungry, who sense more, this belief system just fills in all the gaps. It's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. So it is, it is not, again, mainstream LDS belief to believe in multiple probations, but You know, as your book pointed out, Joseph Smith did mention multiple probation. I think it was a King Philip's sermon once in a private, a very kind of unique moment or was a funeral of sorts. It's been mentioned.

Are those the type of things that make you sort of stay strong in your belief of Joseph Smith? I'm just trying to understand. Yeah, yeah. So I rely on what I've like what keeps me grounded in the belief system is what's come to me purely. But it's like a bonus that Joseph talked about it. It's a bonus that Eliza R. Snow and, you know, Huber C. Kimball and some of the others have pretty bold statements about it. None of them are totally explicit, right?

These are all historical leaders in the LDS faith. I don't know that Eric's mentioning. Right. It's just odd that there's so many references and there's books full of references from early members of the church on it. And it's just it's almost like we've had our own emperor Constantine getting involved in those somewhere in the last 150 years and it's been scrubbed out. And so in an ironic turn of events, as this doctrine comes back,

back, it's this doctrine of reincarnation or multiple probation is literally having another life. It's coming back to life again. In both Christianity and the LBS church, there's thousands of people that believe it that inherently know it's true, but there's no voice for them and they keep it quiet because to believe this, you know, there's this huge fear of excommunication. And there's so few people who are willing to stand for truth and actually put their membership on the line and take on all the persecution and judgment and ridicule for defending what's true, you know.

So again, I'm on another rant here. Go ahead. If you have something. No, it helps with understanding. So as you just pointed out, there's a lot of, this is not, again, mainstream Mormon or LDS belief right now, so much so that you have been excommunicated for staying strong in your belief of multiple probation. I've interviewed a few people who have said, and you've heard some of those, or at least Little Red, say that this, this belief is dangerous. I can tell you, at least a handful of other

couples that have gotten divorced. They did have affairs. Obviously, people died. Yeah, this doctrine was so dangerous. And the way they were going about it was just like it was just another normal everyday conversation. We do have two dead children. We have multiple dead spouses. We have people who have been charged with killing people. You know, and it seems that this is a belief system they had. What would you say to those who say this is dangerous? Well, what's dangerous, a belief in this doctrine? Or is it the egos of those people that got involved? I, everybody is conflating the belief system, which is unusual. I get that with the actions of two or three people.

It's like saying the internet's dangerous because you can see bad words and pornography, so we should shut it down. It's not, the internet is bad. It's dangerous. It's, so it's, to me, it's just so unfortunate that something that's so beautiful and that's filling in so many holes and which is accepted by most people in the world has been conflated with murder of children, conspiracy, you know, lust, zombies, and these things that I think are so, that most of us just think are so strange. There's no reason to conflate those two.

And if I'm, to be more direct and honest, I see the whole thing. with Chad as a front of Satan, of the adversary to deceive people and cause them to not believe in a doctrine, which is true, because it seems scary and it's led to an outcome in one family's situation. I don't have any intention of murdering children. I don't believe in zombies. These things are not on my radar. I don't see the connection. I don't know why people, are making that connection. It's unfortunate what's happened. In fact, it's tragic and it's awful.

But I think people really need to start separating multiple lives with the actions of one family, you know. Okay. Let me share then a place where I'm struggling with two big parts of the LDS faith and how they seem to be budding heads here. Cool. Fun. Yeah. the LDS faith that we talked about in eternal progression that's unique to their theology. Another thing that the LDS church Mormonism really preaches and discusses it's a big part of the doctrine.

I believe you agree is eternal families. And the fact that you can get sealed to your spouse, not just till death do you apart, but for forever. It's very unique to Mormonism that you go to the temple, you get sealed to your spouse for time and all eternity, that in the hereafter you're together. How does that work if you have lived multiple lives with multiple spouses? This is the doctor that shared with me.

This was Eric and. Eric Smith. Joel Gervine. Yes. They both agreed with this. They share me that the way that eternal marriage works is that we are all married to each other in heaven. And basically we just decide who we're going to procreate with or have spiritual children with. But we're all married to each other.

A lot of these teachings came from Eric Smith. Right. Well, here's a thought. I don't, by the way, I don't know all the answers. it's complex, but I definitely have opinions on that. First of all, my first question is, see, I'm in this mode of now revisiting everything I've ever been taught to believe by the church, and I'm re-evaluating it. And as my basis for doing so, I'm using scripture and basically just what I feel the Lord is telling me, you know? And as I look at that belief system of families can be eternal, it's really not scriptural.

Now, I'm not saying it's false. I'm just saying, what do people have to support it and back it up in scripture? Almost nothing. So then they'll be like, well, wait, you know, Joseph Smith taught it. Yes, yes, he did. And I believe there's truth in it. But my current persuasion on this is it is it is. it is this belief that you can be with someone eternally is true but there are there are things we don't

understand about that and the church does not teach about it and probably don't understand themselves and um in in a more i don't i don't want to make the church look put them in a bad light its leaders and its doctrines or whatever but i'm becoming more and more persuaded that it is the if the church is a corporation, they have a business product and they're selling something. And what is it they're selling? It's that narrative you just said, look, eternal lives. If you want to go to super duper heaven, you need to do this, this, and this. You need to be sealed in temples.

You need to pay lots of money to get there, 10% of your income to get there. If you can do all that, then these super duper blessings we've promised, be yours. It's, it all sounds nice. It's their product. It's what they sell. And it's frankly, not scriptural. If anything that I've looked at when it comes to families that was said by the Savior is actually more along the lines of dividing families for his namesake. Right. There's, now look, people are going to misconstrue that all over the place. It's okay. I don't care. The Savior, the Savior said it. He came to divide Father against. son, mother against daughter, you know, he's, and the point of that narrative that the Savior gave us

is, look, families are good. Your relationships are important, but there's one relationship that's greater than all those, and that's your relationship with me. I'm your savior, you know, and that's my belief. And so if I just condense all this up, wrap it up now, my point is not to say families are not eternal and you can't be, you know, that's all false doctrine, because I don't think that's false doctrine. I'm just saying I think the LDS Church and its members are putting a huge emphasis and focus on something that's not scriptural. And there are so many things we don't understand going into the eternities doctrinally. And, you know, I think these things are going to be dealt with on an individual basis. And I think in days to come, years to come, these things

will become a lot more clear. I agree with you. There are a lot of things we don't understand. I'm going to take this a step further because I want to empathize with those who say this is dangerous and see what I see and what a lot of the public might see around the world, which is Chad Debaal would told Lori Deval that he was married to her in a past life. he also predicted that Tammy was likely going to die. He had also dedicated his autobiography to Tammy saying she was his one and only. So this is, you know, a conflict in that sort of story, right? We have this autobiography. Tammy's my one and only, my eternal companion.

And then he's telling Lori that he was married to her in a past life, in a past probation. Totally. And now Tammy's dead. and, you know, he and his new wife are behind bars. So to empathize with those that are saying this might be dangerous, I just want to really delve into this for a second. And I appreciate you doing this with me. We've heard other spouses are going to die,

which you've explained that way. You know, I apologize for bringing that up again because you did answer that question. In addition to that, we have a girl on fire saying, that someone tried to, you know, have an intimate relationship with her outside of her marriage with Paul, justifying it by using the fact that there was a multiple probation and she was married to someone in a past life. Paul had talked to Joel that night on that Sunday and Joel basically had told him that, now, spiritual rivalry exists and this is real and this is what's happening.

And you should be okay sharing your wife. To clarify, spiritual why ever exist? Polygony. What about women having multiple husbands? That wasn't talked about. Unless you're Julie. Unless you're Julie Rowe. I have heard off of camera.

So I've heard from other people who have said that Julie has, Roe has stated that she was married to different men in past lives. Does this start to pose a problem with, with being unfaithful to spouses or wanting to try out a different spouse or I'm just going to share why I'm going to empathize with people that say this is dangerous and we do have two people behind bars in the world wondering right you know no this is a fair question does it pose a risk yes it poses a risk absolutely in the same way putting the internet out there for everybody to use and experience is a risk for children being exposed to things or even adults or whatever. To me, the risk is no different.

When you get ego involved, it can get out of control. So this is where I look back at Chad's life and I have to believe in that year period before all the news went down and he kind of shifted from me in our group. But this is, I still knew the humble Chad, you know, the soft-spoken Chad. And I can't be his judge. I really don't know what went through his mind and his heart. But it's, it's, the evidence is kind of ominous. It's kind of looming and suggesting that lust crept into his life, his marriage.

And I don't know. It's just speculation. And I think there's been enough speculation. to go around. Yeah. I'm just inclined to believe when, when ego gets involved, that's when you're going to have problems. And so, no, this isn't the time to experiment with other people's spouses.

But, but you know what? I can't even really say that's not true. I don't know. It could be different for every person. And I just don't know. It's an individual. We all have an individual path. And I don't think we should be looking at other people and judging them.

If murder involved in things that break the laws of the land is involved, I think we have a real problem and we need to deal with those. But I'm not aware of anything on that level except for what Chad and Lori have done. And as far as I can see, the laws of the land are handling that, you know. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. again, you're the only person that I've been able to ask these questions too. It's the first. Thank you.

Sure. Yeah. You mentioned that you don't believe in zombies. I did want to ask you a little bit about where you think that came up. I mean, there's two parts of zombies as far as I'm concerned. There's the term zombies, which is pretty crazy to me. Then there's the idea of a spirit, an evil spirit. being able to inhabit a non, you know, a body that they weren't supposed to.

Right. Most of us would probably call that possession. Possession. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Because I would say most people say they don't believe in zombies, but the term is pretty crazy, right?

Like we're talking like walking dead fantasy. So let's, you would call it possession, would you say? Yeah. I mean, I think that's what the scripture is called it. I think the Savior spent most of his time going around casting out demons and unclean spirits from people. You would believe in this then, the possession, possession or? Sure.

Sure. I believe in evil spirit can possess a body just because the New Testament makes it pretty clear that that happened. Okay. Okay. I mean, gosh, again, it goes back to this question of then, you know, Chad and. Lori justify their killings using sort of this idea. Yeah, they use the term zombies, but what zombies means is what possession is. I don't know. I never heard. So I want to, let me pause here and get to the zombie thing. Okay. So this is the way it's been made manifest

to me that Chad has a three-tier belief system. And the first tier is Mormonism. It's as taught out of the book and over pulpits. The second tier is what I call, the fringe tier, all of which the principles in the second tier are scriptural. They can be tied back to something somebody said, something, an interpretation of a verse of scripture. And these are the things that the LDS church and a lot of Christian churches in general leave out of the narrative. They evade these scriptures. They don't discuss them. They're uncomfortable. And, And these are, I'm just going to name a few. Like the end of days, I mentioned before, Isaiah has six references to the huge number of people that are going to be swept off the earth.

That's uncomfortable. And you don't, you don't hear that over pulpits. So in my mind, while scriptural, that's a fringe doctrine. And to talk about even the second coming and the calamities that precede the second coming is uncomfortable fringe doctrine. We just don't talk about it. another one is the 144,000, which is a scriptural topic given to us in the book of Revelation by John the Revelator. Not a lot of discussion. It's in LDS scripture.

It's in Christian scripture. We just don't talk about it much. So to me... It's a big part of Revelation. And it's so far big part of your church of the firstborn book that I'm... Right. Right. Oh, it's huge.

No, it's... It's... critical. There's more like the building of the New Jerusalem. Ask any church leader about it. Oh, we don't know much. You know, it's going to be beautiful. The city of Enick. Enoch talked about it in the Pearl of Great Price. He had some prophecy and vision about the New Jerusalem. But beyond what he revealed to us, there's not much. Joseph Smith gave us some snippets on the New Jerusalem. John the Revelator did as well. The, oh, another buzz topic right now is the Davidic service. Most people call it in a singular, but me and Mad and others are more convinced. It's really

servants in a plural sense. And that comes from scripture. That's again talked about pretty heavily in that book, the Church of the Firstborn there. The Church of the Firstborn itself is one of these fringe doctrines. Shows up in scripture, shows up in the book of Genesis, shows up in LDS scripture quite a bit, especially doctrine covenants. And yet it's not talked about. I don't think I've ever heard any sermon or discourse on the Church of the Firstborn in the LDS Church. Why? Why? Especially if it's in the scriptures. So, so you have all the- Church of the Firstborn is in the doctrine and covenants a lot, mostly talked about. It's in the Bible and it's talked about a lot while in Curtland, Ohio with the

saints. That's right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. And so if, if, it's scriptural, if it was talked about in the early days of the church, why are we not allowed to talk about it now? Here's something most people don't realize. Great sleep doesn't happen by accident. It starts with what you're sleeping on. That's why I switched to sheiks. Their bedding is made from the same performance fabrics you'd find in elite athletic wear,

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Try them for yourself with their 60-night, risk-free guarantee. Upgrade your sleep at Sheeks.com. And somebody will say, well, you're allowed to, but it's like we don't hear about it. We're not taught about it. And we're always kind of given the answer. Just have faith, trust, you know, the Lord will give it to us in his own due time. That's all fine. But the scriptures do say, you can ask.

Let any man ask of God and he'll give it to them liberally and upbraid if not. Or in Moronite, by the power of the Holy Ghost, you mean, you know the truth of all things. We can know these things. We can find out there are answers to those who are asking. And many, many, many people are getting answers to those questions. So my point in Tier 2 is there are scriptural-based beliefs. Even multiple probation is one of these fringe, but scriptural-based belief systems. The very fact that these are not discussed kind of suggest their taboo topics.

suggests that there's some censorship. There's something that they don't want us to understand. And look, truth seekers are going to find it. There's no stopping a truth seeker. And they're curious-minded people will ask these questions. They'll get together in their homes and, you know, around the fireplace and try to understand these things. You're not going to stop that, you know?

And especially where it's all scriptural. Okay, there's my rant for tier two, tier three. Tier 3 is Chad Daybell's own device. He created it probably with Lori. He never discussed these things with me. I don't know about the others in the group. I don't know if he discussed that with Julie. But for me, I never heard about zombies.

I never heard about him. We never talked about possession. We never talked about children, certainly. We never talked about infidelity and lust and those kinds of relationships. So I only heard about all those things the same way, you and everybody else did through the press media and the things that FBI and people have investigated and found.

And Melanie Gibb and some of the other people that have come forward with their personal statements. That's how I learned it. The Tier 3 system is dark. It's evil. It's confusing. It's bizarre sounding. It's,

but unfortunately, most of your listeners, people listening right now, are conflating the tier three with tier two. Sure. I see those. I'm one of those listeners. Yeah. I see no tie in with the tier three systems with the tier two. I see no scriptural basis for the tier three beliefs.

That's where I am inclined to insert ego. Some ego got involved. was definitely ego with those two. Yeah. I'll agree on that. I think so. I'm just trying not to be the judge, but I think, right? No, I think it's, I think the FBI would agree with you on that.

Yeah, I mean. And ultimately, it's going to be the jury that's the judge of that, right? And so I'm putting my trust right now in, you know, the political system to carry out its due process and carry out justice. But. So help me understand then what's. in tier three because I have this is what I wrote I wrote down what you were saying that's in tier theory whether you said it's dark and evil bizarre the infidelity the lost possession but you did

say though the possession has some scriptural background in the new testament right and then you mentioned children which I assume you mean murdering children but I don't know what you meant by that children yeah let's change that last one to like acceptable murder or something you know God approved Justifying, justifying murder. Yeah, yeah, something like that. So justifying murder, lost infidelity. But again, in Tier 3, you're saying that possession, if it's not called zombies, it is scriptural. I didn't say, I didn't think I said, and I didn't mean possession should be part of Tier 3.

I would say that's back in Tier 1. That's just basic scripture. Right, okay. Any Christian believes that, I mean, or they should. it's taught by Christ. But the zombie aspect of it, that's new to me. I would lump that in there because that's just an individual doctrine that I've just, I just never heard of and I never heard Chad talk about.

So this was his secret life activity, you know, things that emerged with Lori. I'm guessing, maybe some others, but I wasn't involved in that. And was it a secret affair? Like you didn't know that Chad was having an affair or? No idea. Again, I didn't know Lori Vallow. I didn't even know that name. The media brought that forward. I had heard that he was texting individuals, married women. That's all I heard. And so that looked kind of suspicious. But it's still back in those days, it was not in my nature to question Chad's integrity at that point. I trusted him. He wasn't. capable of those things in my mind and frankly i'm still i still struggle to even consider that he's capable of some of those things especially

what you with murder with children it's i still struggle with that but the evidence is all around so you know it's like you you got to come to terms with it at some point i can imagine though that that would be very hard because you you were once friends with him and someone you trusted and it would be very hard. Yeah, to wrap your mind around in such a heinous act, evil act. So then tier three, Chad's belief system would be the infidelity, the loss, justifying death. Is that?

Yeah, and zombies. And zombies should be part of that. And zombies. There it is. I wrote it. Sorry, I forgot. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Got it. That's, I mean, that's just what I've seen the media put forward. that was when I heard those things, I was like, that's, that's weird. The media is sure getting creative with this one. You know, I thought the media was producing all that, manufacturing it. Yeah. And so, but anyway, you get it.

As time is rolled on, it's looking like, oh, my gosh, Chad really did believe those things. Right. I know. I would say for even those that did not know Chad, it was hard for us to believe that he believed these things. and that they both did. It's, right. You know,

it's pretty crazy. Let's talk about the church of the firstborn and the 144,000. Is that okay? Sure. Yeah. Talk about a little bit more. You're right, because it's very biblical.

144,000 is in Revelation. And the church of the firstborn is written in scriptures too. The reason I'm bringing it up is because Chad, there's an infamous email now where Chad wrote Lori and said that they were going to establish the Church of the Firstborn and help gather the 144,000. Clearly, they're behind bars now, but this is a belief coming from Scripture, but a belief that was talked a lot among your group of close friends. Is that fair to say?

And it's talked a lot about, how about this, it's talked a lot about in this book. The title is the Church of the Firstborn, and I've actually taken notes on places where you kind of delve a little bit more into what the, 144,000 means and I thought it was really interesting. So I'll let you share and then if I have questions, I'll bring it up. Yeah. No, that sounds good. Well, I might just defer to your questions because I,

we could go a whole bunch of places with that. Great. Yeah. So I, I knew that 144,000 was talked about in Revelation. I did not know the things you brought up. And let's see if I can find it. I have a few notes.

But I didn't, I didn't mark it as well as my husband takes notes. where you talked about where Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, sort of defined the 144,000 as gatherers. Maybe that was the word you used? Let's see. I'm a little rusty too, Lauren. It's been quite a while since we wrote that. Okay. Well, we can, and I can edit space. Let me find it and just put you the right question. Like I said, my husband would have it exactly marked and color coded. Let's start with the church in the firstborn because I'm seeing more there.

How about that? Okay. It is evident that Joseph Smith did everything within his power to establish the new Jerusalem upon the earth. When the efforts failed in Missouri because of transgressions of the saints, he would build an impressive city in Abu. Yet despite having all the necessary knowledge and priesthood authority, what Joseph Smith was lacking was a prepared people. Through the revelations of Joseph, though the revelations of Joseph hint that the Lord was trying to establish upon the earth the millennial church, the church of the firstborn, it seemed that Joseph's revelations were just as likely to produce apostates as to elevate the saints.

Before the millennial promises could be fulfilled, the church would need to be chastened and tried, even as Abraham who was commanded to offer up his son. And then I'm going to skip ahead. It seems that your book implies that the church is, of the firstborn will be established. And yet just as the Savior cannot put the new wine of his gospel into the old bottles of Jerusalem, the Lord faces the same problem in the last day. The new wine of the church of the firstborn won't survive in the Church of Jesus Christ

of Water Day Saints. And what you're implying there is that the Church of the Firstborn will be established and it won't be the Church of Jesus Christ of Water Day Saints anymore. Is that correct? Absolutely. Yes. Very scriptural. There's so many scriptures, and I'm seeing more and more podcasters who are living in tier two, who are embracing the scriptures that are not taught over pulpits, but which there's been much revealed and prophesied about. And so just for example, on this,

on this theme of this not being the church, some people will just say, oh, you're excommunicated, you're disgruntled, you're, you know, you're pissed off, you want to fight against the church. That's not true. That's not my nature and my energy. The bottom line is Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and others, Micah and some others, have full chapters that talk about the shepherds of Israel in the last days and how they will be feeding upon their flock and not feeding, not nurturing, not caring to their flock. And some And some of the language, the Lord is very harsh against the shepherds of Israel. And I take, just so you know, I take the shepherds of Israel to mean, in a broader sense, not just church leaders, but government leaders, those leaders who have been appointed by the voice of the people or by the Lord to care for the flock who are not.

And I think we can see the same patterns and parallels in government as we can in churches. and I don't just mean the LDS Church. As I read the scriptures and look at these prophecies, I think the Lord is talking more about his church in the sense of Christianity and how the shepherds of all those churches are kind of feeding on the flocks. And I do see the LDS church

as the covenant portion of his Christ-centered gospel, which includes all Christian churches, And so I think the LDS Church has a higher responsibility and accountability because of the covenants that have been made in temples. And just like in ancient Israel, if you're a covenant-making people and you go against your covenants, the Lord has a plan in place for you and it's not pretty. And so this is this is all a scriptural theme that the church, the LDS churches we know it, is, I believe, in a state of apostasy. and is not taking seriously the covenants that it makes and is frankly neglecting and abusing the members, the flock just as prophesied. And so I know it's uncomfortable for people to hear, but look, it's scriptural.

You know, take it up with Ezekiel and Isaiah. It's not my words, you know. You explain a lot of that in this book here, the Church of the Firstborn. Yep. Yeah. So recognizing that a new church is to be established on the earth per your beliefs that, you know, that you say are scriptural, which is the church of the firstborn. I did find this about, I finally found it. The 144,000, what you state.

It is plain in the scripture that the church of the firstborn is the millennial church. and it's missionaries. So the missionaries in the Church of the Firstborn are a group referred to as the 144,000. As Joseph Smith taught, the 144,000 are high priests ordained unto the Holy Order of God to administer the everlasting gospel for they are they who are ordained out of every kindred, every nation, kindred tongue and people by the angels whom is given power over the nation of the earth to bring as many as will come to the church of the first

born. So one thing that should stand out in this statement made by Joseph is that the authority of the 144,000 comes directly from heaven. They are are ordained by angels, not from authority that will come from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think I'm bringing that up to say is this accurate. It was in your book. And, you know, do you still believe that? And to try to make sense of what Chad Daybell and Lori Daybell, believe and this is part of the tier two because they did seem to believe that they were going to start this and that they were ordained by heaven. I have to, you know, I have to admit that I see these similarities in them, right? We're trying to make sense of their beliefs too. Oh, no question.

No, no, it's important to tie what you just read in the book there to Chad, because he essentially believed the same stuff. Right. It's scriptural. Yes, I stand by what we said there in the book. think there may be some minor details. Maybe it's not angels that ordains them. I don't know. But yes, I stick by what we said there. The thing is, as you understand, they start to study and research us really deeply, the narrative becomes so clear what's going to happen. Based on the biblical prophecies that the LDS, well, the Lord's Church and Shepherds neglect the flocks in last days, that's a cause for the Lord to bring destruction. Ezekiel 34 is a good, really clear case where the shepherds are neglecting the flocks. You have this kind of calamity period that comes in.

And then he brings forth with his servant, David. And that can be conflated with the One Mighty and Strong. Oh, he's mentioned all over. This David's servant is, is mentioned all over scripture in all the LDS standard works and throughout the Bible for just pure Christians. So this servant David, who people call the Davidic servant, is the figure who seems to be the one leading, taking back the reins from the slothful shepherds. So you could say the LDS church, the government leaders, you could say all the other churches. The Catholic Church is no small part of this.

taking back the reins, restoring order to Christianity, to the Lord's Kingdom. And he's the one that's basically overseeing the 144,000, and building and establishing this church of the first board. So how do we tie Chad into all this? Chad understood that, basically the same way as I understand. Yes. So the thing is, this came after reflection and thinking about what happened to Chad. Julie told me the same that she believed that Chad thought of himself as that Davidic servant.

So if you believe in multiple lives, and now you conflate yourself with a prophesied figure, you start to see this picture. There's a great, and I think Chad started to see himself as being gifted, having power, you know, had a following, Newsome doctrine that, you know, you know, maybe it wasn't real typical or common. Well, you also believe he was gifted, though, too, that he was actually gifted. Oh, yeah. Right? Yes, and he knew of his own gifts.

He was kind of coy and humble about it, if you want to say that. I think there might have been a little bit more nefarious intentions and some of the, the humility that he portrayed sometimes. But it's become pretty obvious. He thought of himself as this powerful, Davidic servant figure who who essentially had power over death and destruction and gathering people because he was he had a gathering let's face it he following and was kind of gathering people I think I think it's true that he thought of himself as that Davidic servant and that all this all of the above in tier two fell under his immediate jurisdiction,

his covenants, his mission on earth, if you will. And Laurie just got wrapped right into it. And they were the dream team for a little while, you know. Thank you for sharing that actually, there is so much speculation and debate actually as to, and I was going to ask you, did Chad see himself as that, as, you know, a servant or a prophet or a gather,

however whatever the term is that you want to use and did he have a following and you said yes to both of those things right so i to clarify i never heard him say that but all the evidence is there to suggest he thought of himself as that figure okay this dream team do you believe chad was the ringleader that kind of told lori what to do or you you know who who was wearing the pants in that relationship or like um I've asked that, Lauren, I'm not really sure, but it just, and I, again, I don't want to speculate too much, but it's like, I see a really interesting combination of backgrounds. Chad brought his tier two beliefs, which was, it's, it is kind of a necessity to understand those things if you're to move forward into the millennium. You've got to understand some of this basic stuff. I don't know to what extent Lori knew of those things,

but she seems to have brought with her the understanding about death and murder and the conspiracy. And so I think when you combine their knowledge and backgrounds, you really have a perfect storm of conspiracy. And I think they fed off each other. I don't know that you can properly pin the blame on either one of them. Thank you for sharing that. I don't, you know, we don't know. I just ask everyone I interview because I'm just trying to understand.

So thanks for sharing your comments. Are you okay doing okay time-wise? Are you okay? Or did you need to go soon? I should probably go in the next half hour. So, but. Okay, that's good for me to know so that I can get through things. So let's go back to Girl on Fire's interview.

If that's okay. I know that you know her. she discussed, well, first off, let me, let me see if I'm right here. Are you friends with Julie Roe right now? I would say we're friends. We don't talk. We're not like invested in any of the same project anymore. But we're not as much anymore. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's, thank you for clarifying that relationship. I wanted to understand that. In the interview with Girl on Fire, she referred to Julie in the group back then when you were more involved in the tomorrow, what is it, the greater tomorrow relief fund

and writing of her books. They described a lot of pairing off or dividing of the men and the women that was done. Those meetings, she would talk about different things, but none of the wives were ever included. It was just the men. Really? Yeah. That's interesting. So would she, she have your husband help and you weren't invited? Yeah. A lot of it too was that she didn't want these men talking about it with anybody else. But I mean, my husband would tell me some things, obviously. We talk. Yeah. Jealousy. Let's just say jealousy was there. Um, do think she created that jealousy yes absolutely and i and i do want to share that i had some more you know examples of that from other people we have that they said that right but then we have destined things stating that

when chad came over with another person they said we only want to talk to you and not to your wife your wife is not invited to this little meeting they called it family history I remember a few of the people that he said that I was, which made me very uncomfortable. They told me that I was not to speak to my wife about it, and they left, and of course, I went straight to my wife about it. And then we have Sean Little Bear stating that Julie wanted to talk to him alone without his wife. That Chad and Joey wanted to share with me that I had a previous life. and in that previous life, I was Samuel the Lamanite from the Book of Mormon. And they wanted to basically grill me on certain things.

And they wanted me to go there alone. And I said, I'm not going alone. If I go, it's with my fiance. So there does seem to be a pattern here of people telling me this. Did this happen? Was there dividing? of spouses or causing tension

among spouses then? Well, I don't know about tension among spouses. There was a little bit in my family. Yeah, I think that's true. Most of the meetings were mostly men.

There were wives that attended at some. And I can't speak. I don't know. I don't know Julie's reasoning for that. I'm kind of more comfortable leaving this to her again because I don't, we just kind of went along with what she asked and didn't, didn't always understand what she had in mind, you know. Okay. So you don't understand why, but you can acknowledge that there was sort of.

The meetings were mostly among men. Okay. Thank you. It's been stated to me by more than one source that you were married to Julie Roe. in the past life. Is that true? I think the possibility is there. I can't say, I don't know that any of us can say with certainty that this stuff's true. Like, I was this and you were there and we were, you know, I just, I don't know. I just, I recognize the possibility. But it, you know, if it's with her, it's also the possibilities there with others, you know. I just don't put a lot of thought into

into that because I'm happily married now, you know. But for a while, you know, I think you can expect this, Lauren, as insights come along, new insights, you're going to be curious and you're going to explore every angle. This is like, you see this in your children. They're curious and they ask lots of questions. It's, I don't feel ashamed, you know, for, for exploring those possibilities. I don't think anybody needs to. What we do with the understanding is there's caution needed there for sure. But yeah, I explored all kinds of possibilities and for a little while and that's just all, that's all history for me now. I feel like there's some maturity that comes when you gain perspectives on multiple lives. It just takes time, you know. There's a natural process

you go through of curiosity and kind of vetting out what's necessary, what's not necessary. And I think to explore past spouses is an unnecessary part of unraveling the mystery of multiple lives. Thank you for sharing that and for your forthcoming honesty. And so there was a time where you explored past spouses, but not anymore. It's not necessary now. Yeah, yeah, that is fair to say. Okay. Thank you.

There are other people that other men, I've heard that we're also married to Julie Roe possibly in past probations and some jealousy among their spouses. I'm not talking about you now. I'm talking about some other people. Did you see jealousy and tension because of this sort of exploration of other spouses? I can't say that, no. And I think to say there was jealousy is an inward look on someone's heart and a judgment that shouldn't shouldn't be made. Whoever is saying there was jealousy, that was, I would say that's an unrighteous judgment and I don't think that's necessary. I don't know. I personally don't know what was in people's hearts and I can't really say that I saw that I saw that sort of behavior.

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Here, to be honest. People doubt Chad Daybell's near-death experiences. Do you believe them still? Do you stand by that they're real? People no wonder if you made them up. Yeah, no, no, it's real. I mean, I've seen this in a lot of people where they usually, when they're young, have some sort of experience, like a near-death experience,

where they die or they come close to dying or something, which opens them up to the other side of the veil. And for the rest of their life, they're kind of open to, you know, seeing, conversing with spirits, getting visions, glimpses as you're driving down the road, whatever. And that's a really common thing. I see in lots of people. And so that's nothing unique to Chad. Yes, I do believe that's where his journey started when he, he always tells us a story when he was diving and he went through the water and heard it, you know, his spirit came out of his body. And ever since then, he had these gifts. That's true. But I need to go back to what I said earlier. Once you're open to

the other side and you see and discern and sense things and have visions, it becomes a challenge, and my observations of these people have these experiences, it becomes a challenge of learning the voices. Is this a positive voice, a negative voice? And there's constant battle of determining their source on things. And so, yes, Chad's experiences absolutely legitimate, have no doubt of it, the voices that came to him and how he handled those things and what he heard and what he wrote and shared with people, that's where the discernment needs to come in. And I think he was often misled in what he said, but I think he also was often telling, well, I think he was always telling the truth as he understood it. It just, people just come to rely, hey, this person's

gifted, I'm going to listen to them 100%. Everything they say is from God, you know, and that's where the mistake is. You can't do that with anybody, you know. Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to just keep speeding along, but I hear everything you're saying. Thank you. I'm going to play devil's advocate with what you just said for a second. If Chad's veil was thin then, and this is accurate, how do we know that, how do you know that he, you know, wasn't hearing things? from God. I mean, I know he's behind bars, and I know that he broke the law of the land,

and he killed people, but Lori believed it, you know, if he has these gifts, as you say, at what point does it become ego, or how do you know he wasn't hearing things? You know, Nephi killed Laban in the book of Mormon, and that was of God.

At what point? you draw the line if you believe? Yeah. Well, yeah, I don't know. Well, I have to say, though, I know that he made incorrect choices and understood things incorrectly. I think he genuinely thought he was doing what he was supposed to. But at that point, I'm inclined to think he goes there. So he's, he somehow thinks he's invincible from getting it wrong. But you know what, Lauren, I have to say this, too. I only started realizing this when I talked to a gal named Donna Serafina. I don't know if you know that name.

She's on Facebook is how I got acquainted with her, but she's been following the Chad Dayball case quite a lot. She's a psychic. She lives somewhere else, and she doesn't have the same background we have in Mormonism. But when I listen to her readings, man, she was getting stuff right. and she's a good example of somebody who has gifts, spiritual gifts, used them for good. She wanted to help. And she told me that she started to see towards the end there of Chad's

that he actually literally physically and intentionally connected with dark spirits so that he could get his way so that he could manifest, you know, whatever it was he wanted. It's almost like, you know, the light spirits he was communicating with, weren't providing what he wanted. So he went to, you know, a different source. That's, I'm perfectly capable of believing that. Yes, I held him on a pedestal and I really didn't think he could misspeak for a while. That's my, that's my journey.

That's my mistake. Sure. And I've learned from it. But now I have more wisdom and I'm grateful for my journey and what I've learned. And I think the biggest lesson there is to not take anything. Anybody says as truth. You have to always take bits and pieces as they come along and check in with your own maker, your angelic helpers, whatever you want to call him.

God, that's how I feel. You've got to take every little bit to God and see what he says and if that's needful. for you and your journey, your path, you know? Did Chad believe himself then? Did Chad believe throughout the whole thing that he was following God? So I think so. Until that point that I just mentioned with Donna Seraphina, that he, if he intentionally started communing with adversarial,

you know, unclean spirits or whatever you want to call him, I believe until that point, he did genuinely think he was getting inspiration from the Lord. And to be honest, I think you would legitimately have to get some inspiration from the Lord to believe what you're getting and to get the kind of following he had. You couldn't do it. You couldn't make up stuff the whole time and get the following he had. I don't think.

People generally speaking recognize truth. The problem is when truth is mixed with little pieces of error and people swallow that error because it's surrounded by truth. And so I think that's a typical thing. And I think that's exactly what happened with Chad. So yeah, he believed what he was getting was true. His followers did. And then some error starts creeping in there towards the end, you know.

Okay. When did people start breaking up with Chad? And I use breaking up as a lighthearted term. but I have heard, you know, in that December podcast, Julie said that she hadn't talked to Chad in a while in December of 2019 when you both did that. I never met Lori. I've never met her kids. And I have not talked to Chad. The last time I talked to Chad was three weeks before Tammy died. And then Joel Gervine has had told me that he stopped talking to Chad in 2018. And there seems to be something that happened. After he supposedly took the necklace, he was ducking and diving trying to get away from me, from my wife, from us.

In the end of September in 2019, he came to speak at the group in Draper. One month before 10, it was killed. And he didn't know I was actually in that group. He just showed up. he excused himself he said i've got to quit speaking i've got to drive all the way back to rexburgh did you ever stop talking to him or was that a relationship that was okay i've mentioned this earlier in this podcast but that he did there was a period in time i would say about a year before the media broke broke um that he distanced himself you did say that yep and that is true

I kept contact with him because I was writing my own books. In fact, I reached out and asked if he might be willing to write a forward in one of my books. And he never responded to that. So I was still reaching out. What's that? Lucky you. Yeah, no, it was probably, I think it was definitely by divine design. But he definitely started feeling uncomfortable with me, with other.

and kept his distance. But in that year, I did have maybe three contacts with him, a text, a phone call and email, and we actually went on a drive together with some friends to go look at some sites. And he was noticeably different in that drive together, very withdrawn. And there was just a noticeable shift. But I just, you know, back then I just wrote it off as always having a bad day or something, you know? Okay. Dark and light belief system. What tier is that?

I don't know. That's Chad's own creation. I would probably throw that in tier three. I think generally speaking, you can kind of look at people and know if they pursue darkness or if they pursue light. But,

Lauren, I look at my own life and there have been periods in my own life when I pursued darkness. you know, when I was a rebellious teenager, you know, I wouldn't think twice about flipping the bird to somebody or something, you know, when I was angry and better with the world. But so at that point in my life, I was dark. But to label someone as light or dark as a complete, like, comprehensive declaration of their very being, to me, I always felt wrong. And I don't see any scriptural basis for it. It's unnecessary.

That's just Chad's creating. So I would, yeah. let's throw that in tier three. Okay. Chad wanted to write scripture. According to this infamous email, I mentioned that he wrote Lori about being gathers at the 104 and starting the church of the first four. There was writing sacred scripture.

Was that possibly the sealed portion? Or do you know what that scripture was that he wanted to write? Do you know anything? No. No, as you were sharing that, I was kind of like, really? No, I didn't know this. I didn't know. Yeah.

There were some missions. There were seven missions that he told Lord that they were going to fulfill. Start the church of the firstborn. One of them was write scripture. Set up tents. What are the white tents? Can you tell us what white tents are? Setting up white tents was one of the missions.

Oh. No. Well, I mean, I'm just deferring to some of the near-death experience accounts and the books that I read. Yeah. Where people saw tents and fields, you know, gatherings, little cities of that this, this, would be times of tribulations. I'm thinking that the scriptures talk about when people are chased out of their homes and cities and they start together. So I'm assuming that's what that, what those white tents are. Okay. Did Chad believe his books were real? Real events? Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Definitely. Thank you. And the real events would happen. Did you believe they were real? Oh, yeah. I still think Parts of them are true. I think they'll happen just like he said. I think there are probably parts that won't. Maybe most of it won't. But because I know the way he taps into true and authentic insights, yeah, definitely. I think we'll see some of those things. But I'm not hanging my hat on it anymore. I used to. I'd be like, it's going to happen this way and we're going to see this event happen, you know, but now it's like, it's more like, I think he generally captured a sequence of events that was probably correct. I'm not going to I'm not going to look for the specific events that he discussed, but I think he was tapping into a legitimate source of truth there

on a lot of that. Thank you. And I know you have to go. I have so many questions. I'm just going boom, boom, boom. And then just say, I've got to go if you have to go. What do you think happens specifically with what am I trying to ask? The way that Tiley's body was found was particularly heinous. It was just horrendous. I have speculated and speculated and I know you don't like speculation. But I can imagine that you also have because you're trying to make sense of this. I've wondered if it was sacrifice of some sort.

I wondered if it was a religious, like what he was doing. Do you have, could you shed any light on any speculation or what this possible? possibly was. I really can't. That stuff's really uncomfortable. No. Gosh. All I could add is I have been researching the cult and some of their practices.

And it looks an awful lot like, it looks an awful lot like Satanism. And I still wrestle with the idea of Chad, being Satanistic or something. But at this point, I'm not putting anything, I'm not closing any doors on that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And to clarify everyone, we're speculating that we went to an uncomfortable place, but I was hoping you can maybe, you are closer to this than anyone, you know, so thank you. Thanks. Well, it's not like I, I never heard him talk about anything remotely similar to that. So that, so it's, no, I really can't add light. But, but that it awful, it does.

was looking off a lot like satanic ritual abuse. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I hear you. All right, two more questions. Sure. Because of that hard place we just went, let's first ask this. Did you know Tammy, Dave Lell then?

Yeah, sure. We had, I mean, we went to some of the same, you know, potlucks and we went to a concert together her family and my family and I never really talked to her my wife did but yeah I knew her well enough from a distance okay you know it sounds you know it sounds like you only knew one of the victims right you didn't know JJ you didn't know Tiley you didn't know Charles right you did know Tammy is there anything that you'd like to say to the victims or to I mean the victims have passed, but the victims that are still alive that are suffering. Colby, the Woodcock's,

people that you've know about. The only people I knew was Chad's children and Tammy's children. Them? That's children, yes. I loved them and I still do. And like their oldest daughter, she was, she's a sweetheart. And their oldest, son. I knew all of them. And we spent time together. And I think they're great. I love them dearly. And I don't know where they are. Like, I think they still believe their dad's innocent. And I can totally appreciate that. It's, I don't know how you can see it honestly. But I just feel really bad for where they are. We've lost contact with them. We've tried to reach out.

They're rejecting our offers at friendship and love, you know. And I'm really sad about that. But I totally understand that I don't judge them. So I hope they see this and I hope they know that people genuinely love them. And I'm just really sorry. I think Chad, I don't know that Chad has really considered the ripple effect that he's set in motion. in time and space and generations to come, it's, it's no small thing. There've been a lot of people that have been hurt by this. And it's not going to end anytime soon. And I think those who are living

are, you know, they're taking the heat, the brunt of this. And so it's, I hope people will not judge them for wherever they are and just be loving and accepting. you know, and compassionate to those who are still around. So I really appreciate that. People wonder about his children. Thank you for humanizing them. And thank you. What you said brings true to me that what he has set in motion will affect generations.

Yeah. And it's sad how many people have been affected by Chad and Lori Daybaud. Yeah. During that, I want to read you a comment that was directed to you on the statement that I shared. You shared a statement with me in response to a girl on fire. And I don't know if you know this person who wrote this. He writes as if he might know you, but I don't know if he does. He chastises you, he's hard on you.

So that's why I want to bring it up. I want to give you an opportunity to respond to this comment. It's from Father of 10 on YouTube. Says this multiple probation doctrine hasn't borne any good fruit in my opinion. It has only given people a license to do terrible things, as in murder and adultery. People can have their own beliefs. And Eric is welcome to believe. as he wishes. But it's much better to focus on the beauty and love of this life and hope for the

future than think about past lives. It leads you vulnerable to all kinds of rabbit holes. Eric, I know you love the scriptures. But don't you think you've gone a little far with this belief? What about all the Julie Roe followers that were flirting with each other's spouses based on the justification of past lives and relationships? They use it as an excuse to indulge their lust. Can't you see that? You gave up your own membership in the Lord's Restored Church for this belief. Why couldn't you have just put it up on the shelf and kept it as an open question for yourself to be answered later? But no, you had to go teach it and look at the result. Nothing good has come.

And I could argue that this very doctrine of yours denies the Atonement of Christ who suffered for our sins so that we wouldn't have to repeat multiple lives into affinity. Think again, my friend. He was hard on you. And so I wanted to give you the opportunity to share your thoughts. Sure. I mean, he's on his journey, and I don't judge him. Like, I've seen so many people come and go who will put caps on their understanding and knowledge. And when something is uncomfortable, they'll do that.

I put a cap on it for quite a while. I was thinking about researching it, praying about it. But man, when the knowledge came and the confirmation from heaven to me, you don't easily walk away from something like that. There's a lot in there. I'm not going to respond to you. There's just a lot of emotion and there's some hurt and stuff. But I can speak for myself and say there have been good things.

fruits. I think he's right not to put a lot of focus on it. I'm not going to fault in there. And to live in this life, those are good points. I won't argue with those. To talk about flirting with people's spouses, I don't know. I don't know that I saw that. His experience is different than mine. The fruits have been bad for who? For him? I don't know. For me, they haven't been bad. they've been bad obviously for Chad and Laurie in that situation because of his application of the knowledge. That's Chad's journey. That's not mine. It's not this guy who wrote to me. It's not his experience. We all have our own journey. I'm not faulting anybody who chooses not to believe it. And I don't think they should fault me for making that my journey,

whether they see good fruits in it or not. It really is going back to to the internet example, just because it can be used for bad, doesn't mean we should shut it down. It can be used for good, just like the internet. Thank you. Why did you choose to do this interview today? The two reasons to, first of all, to deconflate the tier two and tier three belief systems to show people that there are beautiful and true beliefs that Chad had that he misused. And that's on him.

The second reason is because I see that in this journey, there's been a lot of heartache and a lot of hurt hearts. Sorry, Paul and you can beep that out if you want. They had their own experience. It's obvious they've had their own heartaches. and I'm sorry about that. I've had my own heartaches. I have friends that have had heartaches and stuff, but this isn't all bad.

We look at it as big negative experience. Anytime there's negativity, we can grow from it. And I've learned a lot. And my friends have learned a lot. And without the learning experiences, there wouldn't have been growth. And so my plea, and one of the reasons I'd like to do this interview

is to encourage people to, to heal to if you've been wronged, if you feel people betrayed you or hurt you, or done something offensive, forgive them. The only way we're going to move forward and prepare for the second coming, which I believe will be soon, and I don't mean like in, you know, real near future, but we have to be forgiving and compassionate and heal from those hurts and love others and try to give them the benefit of the doubt and believe in the common good we have that we can progress and that we're trying, even though those people disagree with me and I might disagree with them, I can say about Paul and his wife, there's a genuine interest in serving Christ.

Can they see that in me? Because it's there. We might squabble about differences of opinion and beliefs, but it's not our unity and beliefs that's going to get us there. It's going to be our unity. and compassion and love and forgiveness that's going to help us get there. So I think we need to focus on those higher principles of compassion and those emotions rather than the divisiveness and the defensiveness and the blaming and pointing fingers and stuff,

that's just not going to get us anywhere we want to be. Thank you. Thank you, Eric. Before we end, just a few thoughts looking back, at this interview I did three years ago. After this interview with Eric Smith aired on our YouTube channel in 2021, Dr. John and I accepted an invitation to be interviewed for the first time on the podcast, Mormon Stories, with host John DeLinn and Mindy Caldwell. That two-part episode titled The Mormon Influences on Chad Daybell and Lori Ballo explored these unusual beliefs being prevalent in the East Idaho area where many of Chad, DeBell, and Lori Ballo's crimes occurred.

Rexburg, Idaho, where Chad Daybell and Eric Smith lived, is a small tight-knit community that is home to BYU, Idaho. Over 90% of the population is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Rexburg is headquarters to Avow, a popular Doomsday Prepper website, whose owner, Christopher Perrette, gave Chad Daybell a platform. And Christopher Perrette claimed Chad was innocent. He claimed that Chad was innocent until the bodies of 7-year-old JJ and 16-year-old Tiley were unearthed. in Chad's yard. While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterty Saints has removed the memberships of many who taught beliefs about multiple probation in East Idaho, including Julie Road, Chad Daybell, and Eric Smith, church leadership has never mentioned or commented on the murders of Tammy Daybell,

Charles Vallow, Tiley Ryan, and J.J. Vallow. And they have continued to avoid all media questions for nearly five years now. Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell's sister-in-law. Heather is Mary married to Chad's brother, Matt, and was Tammy and Chad's neighbor in Fremont County, Idaho, where Tammy, Tiley, and JJ were killed. Heather and her husband Matt have consistently spoken out about their concerns with Chad's extreme beliefs and see how the community they love has been infiltrated by some of these beliefs. Heather's groundbreaking three-part interview with hidden true crime is another I recommend, and it can also be listened to on our podcast. During that interview, as the three of us sat around

our dinner table and Heather Daybell relayed to us a story. It's a story that I feel is so important I want to remind people of it once again. Heather explained that shortly after JJ and Tiley's remains were discovered on Chad Daybell's property, she was shattered, but found hope that an apostle of the LDS Church, Dieter Uckdorf, was going to visit Rexburg, Idaho. Heather Daybell says she felt relief when she learned of the visit. She thought, finally, they are here to address my community's crisis and my crisis. Rexberg is hurting and she hoped these leaders could give direction and guidance. She went to hear Apostle Uchtdorf speak and her heart sank when he only mentioned missionary work in the area and never mentioned the murders or Chad and Lori's victims. He did not mention any of the extreme

beliefs taught by Julie or Chad and others. Ukdorf, one of the 12 apostles, was my very favorite. I loved his talks. So I was certain that one of his reasons in coming to our area was to address this issue. And I even, I didn't say anything, but I even thought, you know what, maybe my state president will hook me up and I can talk to him for a minute. Yeah. You're going through this absolute trauma. You're looking for a lifeline. Yeah. An acknowledgement of what's happening in, not just to me, but this whole community, this was devastating for the community. So when he started, started his talk, it was the same old talk about missionary work. It was about missionary work. And I even, so he opened it up to questions and answers. And, you know, someone could get up and ask a

question. I'm, I'm a stayfully safe present. I'm going to, I'm going to make a comment. So I can directly talk to him. He can see me because you had to introduce yourself. So I, I stood up, I said, I'm Heather Daybell, steak relief society president in the Henry's Fork steak, and I proceeded to give my opinion. And I wanted him to see me. I wanted him to, I'm sitting right here. Everyone in that room knew who Chad Daybell was. When I stood up and said, I'm Heather Daybell. They knew who I was. So the meeting ends. We all stand up as he walks away. and I remember, and Matt says, I remember you saying this, Heather, when I got home from that meeting, I was so deflated. And I said, Matt, he didn't say anything.

I didn't, I thought maybe I would be someone he would talk to. Nothing. I didn't even, I didn't, nothing. I was so deflated. And at that time, still believing. And, but it was just one of those things like, why are they not addressing this? Right. Why are they not saying anything?

As you've pointed out, Rexberg was grabbing hold. And, right. And Chad would say to me, Heather, they know what I'm doing. They know what I'm doing. And they don't say anything. So that was one of those things. I think, gosh, if an apostle would have like come themselves and said, Chad, this, you're off trash.

It really made me feel like, They really just don't care. They, their public relations and how they appear to the world is more important to them than at least how our family was doing. After Heather's story was published, I received an email from a grandmother in Rexburg, Idaho. I sensed in this grandmother's email a voice of pleading, and she requested repeatedly, I never share. she wrote the message she privately sent me. After communicating a bit more, she decided she was okay with me sharing this part of her private message, as long as I gave no identifying information. On behalf of this woman, a grandmother and faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints, and on behalf of Heather Daybill and her story, I want to end today's episode with this. A message from a Rexburgh grandmother to me, quote, you spoke the truth when you said Rexburg where I live is hurting. I consider myself very balanced with a strong testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ and a devoted love for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. At least, that was me before Chad Daybale. I've had and continue to have a crisis of faith. I too long for the church to step up and acknowledge that many of us are victims of Chad's teachings, and we need the brethren to address the elephant in the room, about which they have yet to even acknowledge. Their silence is deafening to many of us with heavy hearts concerning the bastardization that Chad,

Daibel imposed on so many things that were previously so sacred to us. Everything that I've embraced about the church is getting more and more sullied. I'm not sure what I believe anymore. Now here's the reason I'm reaching out to you, Lauren. Please do not let this matter go unexplored. The church is failing many of us who live in the midst of these teachings. We don't know who to trust with our conversations and beliefs anymore and it hurts. Please do not let it get swept under the prayer rug. Thank you, a Rexberg grandmother and member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. End quote. To this Rexberg grandmother, hidden true crime will not stop and we have not stopped what we have been investigating since December 2019. We will continue to investigate and we will

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