Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: An Interview with Sharie Dowdle (Her story behind her secret recording with Melanie Gibb)

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

Who is Sharie? Most know her as the voice gasping in shock during a recorded phone call with Melanie Gibb in 2020. Melanie Gibb was Lori Vallow's best friend and testified at her ex-friend's 2023 trial. Why did Sharie Dowdle record Melanie Gibb? How does she know Melanie? How was Sharie involved, and how did this recording get released? Hopefully this interview from June, 2021 will help to answer those your questions. Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. While they've uncovered what's hidden for three a half years, ever before have they put a backstory together like this--allowing it's listeners to understand the full context of episodes and interveiws--those published and unpublished. While host Lauren Matthias sits each day in court during Lori Vallow Daybell's trial in Boise, Idaho and sharing updates from court, you can get caught up by listening here, and listening to our full 'Beyond the Veil" season. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime. DISCLAIMER: The views of our guests/interviewees, do not reflect the views of Hidden True Crime. Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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news and for exclusive content. Become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Hidden, a true crime podcast, a forensic psychologist, and a forensic psychologist and journalists explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. Sherry is being talked about a lot right now on the internet, making waves in the Davell case because of a telephone recording that was released, or let's say a recording of a telephone call that was released. The telephone call was correct me if I'm wrong. Sherry.

was that in January of 2020, the phone call that you recorded with Melanie Gibb? Is that right? That's correct. Yep. So, you know, please don't share this on social media. No, no, I promise I would not. Oh, my gosh. It's just for safety reasons.

But, you know, it's just so sad. It's so sad. You can know how sickened I've been. Do you have the exact date of that telephone call with Melanie Gibb? I did, but I deleted it. I deleted it. Okay. So what we do know then is that it was January 2020.

This was when Tiley and JJ were still missing. And about a month earlier in December of 2019 was when the daybell case hit the media and the public started learning about the case. So this was a month-ish, give or take, after the case hit the media. But before we knew much, the public only knew that there were two missing children that were Lori Vallow's and that there were, Tammy Davo was dead, Charles Vallow was dead. But we did not yet know about zombies. The public didn't or these deeper beliefs. I'm just, I'm setting the stage so people kind of understand the timeline of when you were talking to Melanie Gibb and chose to record a phone call, which is now. been released by true crime underground. And her brother's down there, just down the street for me,

because he's marrying my friend who's in my ward. Her name's Sulema. And so I say, hey, are you around? And so anyway, I said, hey, let's meet. We need to talk. So I said, hey, Alex. I said, do I want to know what happened to JJ? And she says, no, you don't want to know.

I went, what? Oh, my goodness. And she goes, I told Laura, she should have never got you. involved in this. I'm like, yeah, she should have never got me involved. That was not smart. That is a Facebook group of web detectives who have been analyzing this case. They have the Facebook group, True Crime Underground, the Lori Dave L. Colt Mom. And somehow, they received the recording of Sherry with talking to Melanie Gipp in January of 2020. And they released it along with many other YouTubers in WebSlooth, who have also now

released it, it is out. You weren't aware of that being released or passed around. Then I want to clarify one other thing. Sherry and I have been talking for a few weeks now, would you say, a monthish now. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sherry gave me in confidence a shorter recording, 20-20-ish minutes. Can I say that? Is that okay if you want me to edit? Yep. No, that's fine. Okay. And you requested I not share that with anyone, which I did not because I have collaborated with True Crime Underground numerous times and one of their admins is often my YouTube moderator. I want to make it very clear that I did not leak this recording.

And Sherry can confirm this because the recording you sent me, Sherry, was 20 minutes long and the one that was released is 50 minutes long. So I want to put all speculation aside. there too. I am not the person that released this recording. You sent it to me in confidence and I kept confidence. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Thank you for clarifying that too. Do I have permission to share some of that audio now because it's

out there? Okay. Okay. So, and you know, Alex bless his heart who passed away, he just was thought he was doing a favor to his sister. He didn't really care so much, you know, about Charles or this or that, but he just thought he was helping her. Did she ask him to kill him? Well, to self-defense. Take me back to your relationship with Melanie Gibb leading up to this point. Can you do that? Help us in the backstory? Sure. No, we've never ever met. So she's never seen me personally, and she might maybe she looked at my pictures. I don't know. But we've never.

ever met. But it started April of 2017 is when I went to a, so back in 2017, I went to a, in 2017, I went to a, some, a health training thing in Idaho. And I, I'm, it was still, it was out west and it was at the spring, the hot springs or whatever springs saratoka springs oh yeah okay and at night we just was free time and and all these women were around just one little um somebody's ipod or ipad or ipad or something and mike this guy named mike stroud was live with his wife talking and i didn't know who they were but i knew i just felt the excitement of everybody so i listened to it he gave a talk kind of like a church talk. I don't even remember exactly what it was, but they're like, oh, he's wonderful. And you should, and they told me that I should listen to his podcast. So I, they told me how to

download it and everything. So I started listening to his weekly podcast. And I'm going to just interrupt quickly and say for those, Mike Stroud, we learned was Jason Mow's Seminary Teacher. Exactly. He's now an excommunicated member of the church for teaching doctrine, that the church did not want him to be teaching and he was someone that Lori Fallow Daybell liked and listened to. Sorry, go ahead. Just help people understand. Sure. I didn't know that.

But he was very wonderful to listen to. And, and, but that's how I got connected to Jason. That's how I did because I found out that he was his seminary teacher. And he gave a talk, another talk and Jason, what's his lesson? Mao now yes Jason now introduced him Mike Stratton said oh he was my seminate teacher so many years ago did that so then so then I I and and he's like oh yes he's a wonderful guy Mike Stratt was saying that wonderful Jason Mao was so then I started listening to Jason Mal's podcasts and I think and somehow this wasn't even a prepared people situation when he was talking at either but somehow

somehow I um jason mal they said you know we have parent for people whatever somehow from that I found out that there was a preparing to people group and I listened I was listened to all of Jason Mow's um time to warrior up and then he had Lori and Melanie give on with him so then when Lori Melanie during the I don't know how far along they had said oh she just wrote her book is just out now. So I ordered it on Amazon, just the reading one, not the physical copy of it. And I would listen to it from my Alexa. She reads them to you. Oh, she just answered me. But you don't have to, you don't have to actually, you can actually listen to it so you don't have to pay for an audio copy so it's cheaper. So I listened to it. And I, that's how I got to know Melanie. So then I reached out to her just through Facebook,

messaging and that's how we would talk. We didn't email each other. We just did Facebook messaging back and forth. I was, I liked the book. I thought it was really good because it just seemed like she learned how to love her husband who was very difficult marriage. And I, there's some similarities that I could relate to. So I thought that was really neat. And she had one child that was special needs. I've got three grown sons in her special needs. So, and she just seemed like she learned to a really amazing mom. So I thought it was a great book. This is the book, Fill the Fire by Melanie Gibb. When did that come out, by the way? When was that released originally? I don't know. I can't even tell you, but it must have been, it could have been in like 2018

sometime, I think. Okay. Yeah, I'll take a look and look at that. Yeah. Anyway, so I didn't get a physical copy until after everything came down. So then I ordered a physical copy because I wanted to say, I wanted to see what was so alluring about it. And then I, the front of it, the forward had Lori and, Lurie and Chad. They were the only ones that wrote forward in it or whatever saying what a great book it was. And I threw it in the trash. I was so upset because by then we knew the kids were dead and they were in this big cult together. And I was like, oh my gosh, that was just a cult book. Anybody that looks at a book now, they're going to be like, this is trash. This is ridiculous. So, but that's how we got talking was through those podcasts and through the book. But when, so she called me, she called me and no, no. Okay, so when I started hearing in the East Coast, I'm on the East Coast, I didn't start

hearing about the stuff in the news. I think it took longer to get out here than it was in the West. So I messaged and I said, isn't that, Lori, the same one that you was, that you did these podcasts with? She said, yes. Yeah, it is. And I don't remember exactly what she said, but she said, can I, can I call you? So we set a time for her to call me on a date in January. How often had you guys talked at this point?

I know you've never met her, but how often would you say you conversed with each other over the phone? Yeah, over the phone, specifically the phone. Oh, just one call. That's the only time we ever talked on the phone. Just this call. That's it. The only time you've ever talked was this call. Exactly.

I didn't even know her voice or anything. You know, but I did. Sorry, for the podcast, I knew her voice. She was very southern because she's from the south. So I knew that she, and so, but, so yeah, I knew what her voice was, but I didn't know what she looked like. Because I, I listened to the podcast. I didn't see them. any of them. So I didn't know what Chad looked like or any of them looked like. So they interviewed Chad also on the podcast. And when I heard in his own words that he had his own publishing company, I did message him and I approached him and asked him if he would like to, if he would be able to, if he would be interested in publishing a book that I was wanting to write. And he said that Amazon was, had put him out of business that he was no longer probably.

other people's books. When was this then exactly that he said this was about three, this was about three months before, you know, his wife ended up dead. Three months before Tammy died, which was she died in October of 2019. So this was maybe the summerish of 2019.

Okay, thanks. Exactly. And so I say, and he said, you know, I'd like you, but, you know, Amazon has made it put them out of business

because they're so, they can publish so much. and all my stuff. And I said, I said, okay, thanks. Then I heard from the preparing of people, I joined the preparing people group on Facebook. And I didn't go to any of their stuff because it was all out west. It was, it, it got scary to me because all of a sudden, I just feel with so much fear like, oh my gosh, we've got to get ready because so many horrible things are going to happen and we're going to be, it was, it was terrifying. It was, for me, it scared me because, because a lot of it was like, all these people were having all these visions and dreams and

all these things that they would talk about and almost so many of them had near-death experiences and were told about these things. And it really scared me because, I mean, I was born and raised in the Mormon religion. And, you know, we've talked about, gosh, from the 70s, they talked about food storage and stuff and get prepared for the last days. But this was really, like, graphic. And it was really scary. So anyway, I didn't go to any of their preparing things, but. What was, sorry, no, go ahead.

Just listening to the different people saying their stories. And they all almost, it almost almost like the same story. They all have like the same similar stuff. What were those things? What were those similar things? that each story had. They had really extreme trials in their life that made them turn towards God. And even like if they had a near-death experience or just trials.

Like Jason now, he was a police officer and then he both of his have, I think it was like both of his, he ripped, he tore both of his main muscles on the back of his legs. And he was down in bed for months. And he, so he couldn't work anymore. And he had and his wife divorced him or something. And so he had to turn to God because he was just him and God. You know, and he didn't even know if he wanted to live anymore and stuff. And then Lori, she heard was like, she didn't go into detail at that time like she did in that recorded thing that got out.

I think I'm sure I must have heard that that one myself. But it was that she had a lot of trials. She didn't really be specific though, but she said she had a lot of trials. And she did say that she had a daughter that was molested by a former husband and stuff. And so somehow that was like a really major trial that turned her towards God. And then Melanie Gibb was her marriage and her children or something. So all of these people claim to have something really big happen. And then they would start getting revelations.

Not Melanie Gibbs. She never said revelations, but like all of them. There are so many. all the lists of people. So I never knew any of them. I never met any, ever personally, but just heard their stories, you know. And it was just,

I had to get, I had to stop it before it all went weird because it was just too scary. It was making me afraid. Yeah. And I, is why I didn't want to live in fear like that because, I mean, you can't even,

if you're that afraid, you can't even function. Right. You know, so I just, I can't do this. I have to just have faith in God and do the best I can and not do this. Because there's so much, they're doing weird. Like you would have, you'd spend, you'd spend so much money if you did all the stuff that they, you know, and I'm just like, I can't do this. And this stuff, let's talk about the stuff that cost money, the stuff that brought fear. And also, when you say you were raised Mormon, we're talking about the Church of Jesus Christ, Waterday Saints, right?

The same faith. Exactly. Okay. So it's not an offshoot faith. We're talking about the LDS church. are you talking when you say scary the prepping and the revelation and the second coming or are you talking about the energy healing can you specify what um was so not energy healing i didn't know that that was a part of their stuff um i i got introduced energy healing but it wasn't through them

and and um so it wasn't it wasn't through them um but in the phone call milney asks me about if i know about the emotion code she asked me that and that's how i um somehow i just saw a seminar on facebook about the guy that did the emotion code and whatever and it just was it ended up being really weird to me so i didn't i didn't like it you know i didn't it didn't seem normal to me so i got out of it so i didn't know that they were all doing this stuff and i had no idea that that was like a basis for it. But it was more like, you know, you have to get these elaborate tents that are these big, they're like these big white tents. And they're like amazing. They could be like a really, they're just very expensive. And then there's so many stuff to go in it. And and just all the

things you needed to have. And you need to have your boots right by your bed because as soon as the call out, you have to be ready to jump, put boots on and jump and get out immediately. And And, you know, like the, I joined that one other thing for a little bit of time. I wasn't on it when this whole stuff went down. I stopped it. But because they would send us these texts on the phone and say all these things that were happening. And it was just, it was really scary because it was just like, like they're going to text you right when it's time to get out of there.

And it was just too much to. And I, you know, so I, I just. I just stopped all of it. That makes sense. Yeah. But with Melanie, I liked your book. So we talked back and forth. And the thing that,

so when she said, yes, you know, that is the same Lori that was on these things, can I call you? So I said, sure. By January time, by the time January came, it was on the news where we were. And I didn't,

I didn't know. I knew that Chad's, you know, Chad's wife had died, but I thought she died of whatever. When I sent message to him, I said, I am so sorry that she was so young. I was shocked that she died because I thought, oh my gosh, did he write about her death in the books? Did she know she was going to die, you know, before all the bad stuff happened? It was just so freaky to me that all of a sudden she died because was it foretold her? And Melanie was when she, when she, write to me she was trying to get me to read all this books oh you've got to read them they're just it's like it was almost like Melanie was trying to get you to read chad's books yes yes especially two different two of them she said it's almost was like it was like scripture like something

you really have to read these books you know and i just thought i'd already had a taste of those and they scared me and i'm like well i don't like that kind of stuff i don't like i don't like that I already, I said to her, I don't like the prepping stuff. I don't believe, you know, it's just, it's, and so she's just like, oh, these are, you know, they're just really good. So what you did like was Melanie's book and maybe, um, the connection with other people was at it? And then as you got to know their focus, you didn't like the prepping. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, it just seemed to. Anything that's extreme is not good, you know? And they were just really. stream in it. I mean, like, it was like a religion by itself. It was like, if you didn't, if you didn't have all this prep where you were going to go to hell, because only the righteous were going to be like with them all prepared kind of thing, you know. I don't, I and so it's like, no, that's not my deal. You know, I'm a very, I am so gullible. Anything I read on the internet, I have to watch myself because I think it's true. Like any vitamin or whatever new thing that

I have spent so much money on vitamins or whatever. They're supposed to do all these things. And it's so bogus. I have to be so careful because I'm really go-up. I'm really, I'm really, I'm really goable. But I want to compliment you, though, that you know that about you, right, yourself. If you know that about yourself, you can watch it, right? So some people wouldn't admit that.

Yeah. Yeah. So when I saw Nate Eden, her interview, Melanie Giff, because in the phone conversation it sounded like I was just you know oh it was wonderful I supported but then I saw it was not true it like it was there's such a there was a lot of differences from what she told on TV to what she told me on the phone so really quickly let's go back to that for just a second and I'll play some of the the recording here right now my brother and my husband and my nephew are all zombies now and they all want me dad

Oh my goodness. Oh, yeah, it gets crazy. So anyway, they have the shoot down and everything. And she grabs his phone and they fight over that. And then Tiley, her daughter, picks up the bat and tries to defend herself or him or whatever. She doesn't like him anyway. And she didn't like anybody. And so anyway, they shoot him.

And so I've talked to the police officer, he goes, you know, she was really happy for somebody that just had her husband shot dead. You know, she was like, oh, how are you? she's real positive and upbeat. And I was like, oh, that's not normal behavior to somebody that gets blown away in your front room. Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, that would traumatize me. But anyway, um, so she's told to move up to Rexburg. The Lord tells her move up to Rexburg now.

She takes Kylie and JJ with her. Tiley and JJ are up there. I know she's up there with both of them because I can hear them on the phone in the background while she's packing and moving in. Talked. She clearly wanted to talk to you on the phone. to probably avoid being recorded or screenshot. You actually, to me, sounded shocked.

This is in January, again, 2020, before her interview with Nate Eaton, before the public really knew about zombies or past probations or these intense, extreme cult teachings. You were talking, and how did it go to the point that you started recording? Can you take us there? Yeah, because it starts.

in the middle of the conversation, you know, in the middle of the call. I, I, it was just weird to me that she just, I'll go say, oh, can I call you? And so then she just starts telling me about the situation. And it was, I know that she knew that I, like, admired her. Like, I kind of had on a pedestal because I loved her book. So I, in a way, she was trying to clear her name and so that we were still buddy, I felt like kind of, but it was just so weird because she just suddenly started saying things. It was like, wait a minute. Because I mean, yeah, preparing people was about people sharing their dreams and stuff.

But all of a sudden now she's talking like it's like a cult or it's like a religious thing. She started she started to talk about the 144,000. And I'm like, what? You know, in the conversation, I'm like, because I didn't, you know, like that wasn't not. I just, I can't explain, but that just was not a part of what I experienced. And, and so, and so I thought, I've got to, I'm going to record this because I just thought, no, this is not. I, I don't know, my gut just said, you got to record this. Can I ask how you recorded it?

Yeah. I have my, I, oh, this, I've got my, this is my, I, I can't. And I just turned it on speaker. We were speaking speaker. That's why it's. And then I just had to record on here. And that's how I recorded it was on my iPad. But, and I didn't tell her I was recording it because she was like already in the thick of it.

And I was, I was just like, and I didn't know that I couldn't do it. You know, and so anyway. Yeah. And I was, I was terribly shocked. I was just like, I was mortified because so many things. But when she said for months and months, they were trying to get rid of Charles. And, and then she, and when she said that he had taken her, Lori's phone and text her, so she went over to talk to Lori, and it was him. And he had her phone. He was hugging her and crying and saying, they're going to kill me. I think I'm Ned Snyder. They're going to kill me. I don't want to help me. I don't know what to do. And she's like, the way she talks that, she's just like, uh, uh, uh, and she's like,

he gets me to come over to his house, but he breaks into the house and she's picking up the kids. She's still, he's still, he's a lot of drama in that. But anyway, he, um, he says to me and I thought it was Lori, but he had her cell phone. So he was trying to get me to come over. She's a cop to him. So it freaked me out. And I get there and it's him.

And I'm like, oh my gosh. So I talked to him. And he's like, you know, Lori's crazy, like she thinks that I'm this guy named Ned and that she's trying to destroy my life and I'm like, I just don't know what to say. The way she talked to me on the phone, it wasn't, she wasn't shocked and she wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, like what did I get myself into? She was like, oh, yeah, Lori wasn't smart telling him all these things. She tells them, which is stupid.

But she says, I'm going to destroy you. She's like, you are not Charles anymore. You are Ned. I forgot his last name. Snyder. You're Ned Snyder. And you're not going to, you are, you know, I am. She told him, I think she told him prior to this, but she was translated.

She was married tomorrow and I before. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, she's already telling him this stuff, which is not smart. Like she shouldn't have told him they should have just killed him without him knowing about all this stuff. She told him prior to this, but she was translated. She was married tomorrow and I before. for. Oh, my gosh. So, yeah, she's already telling him this stuff, which is not smart.

And, yeah, not smart. She should have kept that information to herself. So he gets me to come over to his house. So I just stood there and didn't know what to say to him. And then he hugged me and he was crying. And I was like, I look back now and go, oh, my gosh. Anyway, so. Like she was done seeing all this stuff ahead of time to him.

And, and I mean, if somebody's crying, hugging on you and saying, please help me they're going to kill me what do you do you go to the police immediately and uh then i get a phone call from the police of course i ignore it and then um you know what i mean i mean if you immediately but obviously she was part of all of it she was she knew they were going to kill it and she's saying oh she wasn't smart telling them all these things that is horrible you know charles almost could have had his life spared because he tried everything to get help from every even from her from, you know, to the police department. I'm appalled that

he actually died because he tried to get help. He tried to tell people that she was going to kill him. You know, she tried. And so the conversation with Melanie, it sounded like she was so, she had no feeling. She has lack of any kind of feeling for any of it. So anyway, they have a shoot down and everything.

And she grabs his phone and they fight over that and then tightly her daughter picks up the bat and tries to defend herself or him or whatever she doesn't like him anyway and um she didn't like anybody and so um anyway they shoot him you sensed that she had uh the emotion that she was expressing didn't seem equivalent to what she was telling you yeah she's apathetic is that the word that she had no feeling about it so you know she's a hay's a handful and so and plus it's not her kid anyway right and so it's not her kid because she adopted him right right she adopted them from k's family oh she did yeah oh as a baby she she had him as a baby yeah he was a drug baby and so she

they adopted him as a baby yeah oh wow and she was a really good mom to him she was she was really she was really patient with him and very loving she i saw her she's very loving to him wow and um yeah she was hands down she was a great mom patient very patient with that kid it's like ridiculous And it was, and it was, I felt like I was, I felt like I was an insider with her and like, she was saying like, oh, we messed up here, we messed up there. It was crazy because. And again, this is your first conversation ever with her. Yeah.

That would be shocking. I just want to say that would absolutely be shocking. Yeah. So I go up to visit her and I see that Tiley is not there. And I, I said, hey, you know, Tiley's, I, you know, I mentioned, again like tightly went to be yu and she goes yeah but she gave me this really creepy look yeah it was creepy it was like yes she's dead really and you know that kind of look yeah yeah yeah almost that kind of look but then i didn't know what to think about it at the time i was like

oh and then she didn't tell me that she lied to the police she said okay here we go and don't judge me and then she decided not to do so she didn't tell me that she that she that she lied to the police she said that they asked told her to lie for him for them but she didn't say that she did and then finally went back to the police. She didn't say that part. So she, because I think she was afraid that if I knew who she really was, then I would be,

I wouldn't hold her on this pedestal, you know, that I had her on. And she, I don't know, for some ways I guess she just needed me to, or needed people to still believe in her, that she was still a good person,

I guess, because she didn't tell me that part. Because she's like, she gets, almost starts to get emotional. She's like, okay, now, now just you know just hang on now this is where it gets hard and you know don't don't don't don't judge me or whatever and I'm like okay and then she doesn't say it while you're recording don't

judge me you're like I know I'm then this is where it all changes for me this is hard you're gonna just just try not to react okay okay okay put your seatbelt up okay and um so then I get a call from Chad two days before Thanksgiving. Hey Melanie, Rexburg police is going to call you. Don't answer. And I went, what? And my stomach just dropped, you know? Oh, man. And I said, what happened? Well, the police are over at JJ, at Lori's house, and they're looking for JJ. And she told them that JJ was with you. And I went, what? Oh, no. And I'm like, whoa, I thought JJ was at Grandma's house.

He's not there, is he? And they're like, he's like, no, he's not. I'm like, what? And I don't know. Honestly, I did not know what to think at this time. I was so shocked. And then I find it out when she's testifying in court that she did lie, that she did say he had him to the police.

You know, she had JJ, that she did have. Yes. Yeah, okay. And then she went back. and said she didn't. But so, but the shocker was about, and then she told me. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information

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website. Simply go online, type in how much money you'd put in and see the potential future balance of your account. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who've already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to Acorns.com slash hidden true crime or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement. compensation provides incentive to positively promote acorns, tier one compensation provided. Investing involves risk, Acorns, LLC, and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. She told me that she knew that, that Tyler was still alive because she could hear them in

the background when they were unpacking when they got to Idaho. So she's told to move up to Rexburg. The Lord tells her move up to Rexburg now. She takes Tiley and JJ with her. Tiley and Jiji are up there. I know she's up there with both of them because I can hear them on the phone in the background while she's packing and moving in. So she knew Tiling was alive at that point.

But then she said that Lori had said that she was a zombie over the phone. And she told me already that Charles was a zombie. So I'm just like, I was just like shocked. I'm like, oh my gosh. And she's like, and she said, Tiley said, the back on not me mom that she heard her say that when Lori told her over the phone that she was a zombie now and um and i and then she said and then she went to this she went to with a friend she didn't say it was david she went up there to do a pod thing and a pod but you know she went with david to

to idaho to do the podcast yeah she said it was just a she didn't say it was him but in the recording But she said, and she said that she felt, they said that, that Lori had said that he was a zombie then. J.J.J.'s there and she tells me he's a zombie now. Oh, my goodness. And so it was highly. Oh, no. Yeah, so people have had her zombies. They don't end up staying alive.

She'd probably see the pattern here. And so, anyway. So, I mean, it's so much shock. And then she also talked about Tammy. She talked about Tammy. She said she was supposed to die in car accident. but she didn't die in a car accident. And so she said,

oh, we just had to do whatever we had to do to pray to get her spirit. Lori said to her, we had to do whatever we had to do to get her spirit out of, to get her out of her spirit, which she probably meant to get her spirit out of her body. And so, and I said,

well, how did she die? She goes, well, we just had to do what we could to take her out of her spirit, something like that. Uh-huh.

She said that they, she had, that Tammy had gotten before, before, right before they killed her, a couple weeks before they killed her, that she was starting to question and thought that there's something going on between her and Chad Daygo. That's what the only Gibbs says on this conversation. But she claims that she didn't know she was dead. And then Lori called her and told her that she had died or whatever.

And she didn't hear about it because she doesn't watch TV or something. And I call her in Hawaii and I say, hey, guess what? Do you know, Tammy just died? Do you know this? And she goes, no, I haven't heard it yet. And then I said, well, what happened? What happened to Tammy? And she goes, well, she was a zombie two weeks before she died.

I was like, really? She goes, yeah, she was starting to question our relationship. She was wondering if he was having an affair. I said, oh, I'm thinking she said a prayer and her spirit went home. That's what I'm thinking, right? And so, like, maybe she did some kind of, like, blessing or something, you know, like people can do that, I guess. I don't know. And so anyway.

But for me, I'm. I was, it was so shocking to me to hear about Tammy's death, Charles death. And the kids, and she didn't say, oh, I know that he killed them other than that they're dead, that they killed them other than, she said there's zombies. So, oh, she did say when she went up there to do the podcast, she asked where Tiley was. And Tiley, she said, she said, Tiley was at Idaho, BYU, Idaho. And she said, but she gave her this real creepy look like, but you really know she's dead. This look on her face was a real creepy look. I, you know, I mentioned again, like Tyling went to BYU.

And she goes, yeah, but she gave me this really creepy look. Mm. Yeah, it was creepy. It was like, yes, she's dead, really, and, you know, that kind of look. Yeah. So I listen to all stuff. I'm just like, I can't believe it. I just is in shock.

And, oh, and when I, when she talked about Charles being dead, she said, I said, she asked, she told. She told him to kill, she asked Charles, I mean her brother Alex, she asked him to kill him. And she said, well, yes, in self-defense. And, you know, Alex, bless his heart who passed away, he just thought he was doing a favor to assist her. He didn't really care so much, you know, about Charles, this or that, but he just thought he was helping her. Did she ask him to kill him? Well, to self-defense, yes. well, she, because they planned it.

You can't ask somebody to kill somebody in self-defense. But anyway, I was just in so much shock about all of it. And I thought, this is just crazy. And I thought, you know what? And I asked her, I said, Millie, aren't you afraid? What if they figure you're a zombie next? Aren't you afraid something's going to happen to you? And she's like, oh, no, because I don't, I'm not in the way of their,

wanting to be together. She just thought that it was, they just got rid of people that were in the way of their, doing their mission or whatever. And she wasn't in the way. Can I ask you, do you, are you ever been afraid for your safety since you were so close to, what if they decided you're a zombie?

Yeah, well, I'm not any, I'm not detracting from their mission being together. Their whole thing is they want to be together. Okay, good. So I'm not stopping them from being together, so they don't have any reason. popping me off. So she said she wasn't afraid. But I was afraid. And I thought, oh, she's telling me this. Am I going to end up dead? I mean, I was literally, I was, I was afraid. So I thought, and I thought,

you know, that's why I thought, man, no wonder I'd take you for a quote of this, because what if I end up dead, just knowing her telling me this stuff? It was, I had so much guilt over, I just knew the kids were dead because, and that was January, they didn't find the bodies till June. Maybe they knew or suspected. Maybe the ground was frozen and they couldn't even get there until summer, maybe. Because Idaho is frozen in the snow. So they might have known it anyway. But I just felt like I knew something that nobody even knew.

And it was just eating me alive. It's sad. I don't think the kids are alive. It's sad. And I'm on the East Coast. I don't really know anything. I don't know how to contact the police, but I thought I've got to send this to the police.

So at first I tried to send it to Idaho. And they told me, they gave me a name and I'm forgive me, but I deleted everything. So I don't even know who it was, but they said, send it to somebody in Arizona. So I send it to them. And they said, and they said, and he said, I've gotten it and I listened to it and can I call you? So this detective guy called me after he heard it and he wanted to know how I got the recording and why I recorded it. And he said that they were going to hold it for evidence. didn't say like if it was going to be against her or if it was going to be for her,

you know. Just that they were going to hold it and a value that you sent it to them. Yeah. He said that it's kind of what she said, but there's more emotion to it on the recording. It's more in depth or something on the recording, the phone call than what she kind of. On your phone call.

Yes. And so they were a whole, they were going to keep it for evidence. And that was it. I mean, they never said anything else. And so I felt more at ease because I felt like it was so, it had so much effect on me. I felt like I killed those kids because I knew they were dead.

And I just thought somebody's got to hear this. Somebody's got to see this and know what's going on. And I, and I sent like just a quick message to with, along with the recording, what I had said was, let's see, I said. With the recording, I said, I feel you should look closely at Melanie Gipp in the murder of Charles Vallow. I'm not close friends with her. I have not met her personally, but she called me last January in this tape, taped phone conversation. And she shared knowledge of knowing Charles was going to be killed before it happened.

She also tells how Laurie stole the truck and got rid of Charles' personal effects, etc. It only tells in this tape phone call conversation more than she may be let on. authorities. I take the conversation by having my phone on speaker and using an iPad to take with the call. I have felt really uneasy ever since the call, like there may be needing more information in this call. So anyway, so that's what I sent with the recording. Do you feel some relief then that the recording is out now? Well, I mean, I feel I'm upset to the police leave. it because they're the only ones that I sent the copy to was the police department.

And the little snippet that I sent you, I set just that little bit to Annie as well because she's the aunt, you know, and I know she's had a really good time. The aunt of Tiley. So you sent a snippet to me and to Annie? Okay. To Annie first. And then she's the one that helped me to say that you found out where I lived. She said, oh, this is, you can't, you're not supposed to record in Massachusetts.

You have to have both people know it's okay or it can be a felony. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. And so she said, so she didn't, she would not publish it because she didn't want me to get in trouble. So she didn't, but she did talk about it to her honor group. She talked about it, you know, but she didn't ever release any of it. And she didn't have the whole thing either. And so I deleted all of it immediately and then found out that Annie had gotten the full copy from Awen. And Awen, I don't know it, but I assume she got it from the police department because she's working for Mark Means.

And I'm just assuming because Annie found out that they all have that phone conversation, all of them do. and so she she said to me she sent me the recording back to me and the full amount the whole thing and so she sent me the copy back to me and said is this the original and I said yes and she had gotten it from Awen but Owen was very good she didn't either she did not put it on YouTube she just played a few a little bit of it just maybe a couple of conversations and then a little bit of the conversation. And then she and her friend, Jesse, they talked about it, how they felt about it. And I had kept this inside for so long because I don't think I got it over to the police.

Because everyone I talked to, people that were close to me, I said, I feel like I got to send it to the police. Oh, no, you don't want to do that. You don't want to get involved. You know, you don't know these people. You don't want to be involved. And I mean, and so everybody kept saying, no, no, no. But I really felt so awful. And like, so I probably didn't even send it to him until, let me see, I don't think I sent it to the police until probably after the body's really found even, probably. But I don't remember when it was, but it was like, I think it was, I sent it like around July and they were phoned in June, I think, the phone conversation, because I kept, everybody kept telling me, no, don't do it. And because you don't want to get involved.

Yeah. And while I can't confirm everything in your story, I will share what I can confirm. I can confirm that police do have a copy of this phone conversation that you recorded. And I can confirm that the YouTuber you mentioned, Awen, has been in contact with Mark Means and does and has talked to him. So anyway, but I, my, I couldn't not give it over because my debt was just like, no way. Just screaming like, no, you can't sit on something like that. So can I ask you then? So you deleted everything because you were afraid. How did you have the copy that you sent, the snippet that you, you know,

the 20 minute copy that you sent to Annie and to me? I sent that to her before, before I found out. And then she told me that because she thought if it was legal that she could have just, you know, put it on her thing, but she couldn't because she found out, because she knows all that stuff with her work. Okay. She asked me what state I lived in and she knew. She was like, oh, no, you have to, you can't do that. That's against the law in Massachusetts. So to clarify, because this is something that the true crime world has been discussing and arguing over what you're saying is that when you still had a copy,

you sent it to Annie. And then after talking with Annie, you got nervous and we're scared. And so you deleted everything. Of course, the police at this point already had a copy. Exactly. Then Annie got the full length, which I do know there are two different lengths out there. So Annie got the full length copy from Awen. And according to Annie and to you, and again, I can't confirm, but I'm trying to understand your story.

and then so that's how you had the long copy and how the long copy is out there and maybe Awen shared it with other people and then the short copy did Annie send back to you where you had this exchange so you were able to send it to me is that clear after you deleted everything short copy yes when I talked to you and I and I asked you if you would be interested in interviewing you because I heard your little bear one um I didn't have any more copies at all. And so I asked Annie if she would send me, if she could send them back to me,

because she still had both of them. So first she sent me the short version, and then she sent me the full version back. She just texted it back to me so that I'd have them. And I thought I sent you the full version, but I just sent you the little part. That actually, that makes sense. And again,

while I can't confirm everything in your story, it absolutely makes sense. And I think that that'll help many people make sense of this. So thank you. for sharing that. Yeah. Clarify and get that out of the way. It's unnecessary to some people, but to others it matters.

Right. And so we don't know where Alwyn got her copy, but you speculate it was maybe from Mark Means. So forgive that tangent. Thank you for explaining that. So you got this recording. take me back to getting this recording you got it you can't believe it it's the first time you've ever talked to Melanie given your life and she dropped something so shocking so appalling um

you have the recording did you hear melanies did you send it to police right away or did you first hear Melanie's interview with Nate Eaton and then send it or what happened next after yeah I I heard her I heard her Nate Eaton stuff and I saw what she tested like to know she was lying I knew she was lying in her testimonies because not so much needing, she just didn't tell all the details, but when she was testifying in court, she and the prosecutor was trying to,

not the prosecutor, the defendant, the one that's defending Chad DeVille. He was trying to establish her relationship before he, and that they were close. And Melanie kept trying to side skip and say, no, not really. She tells on this phone conversation that they were like Velcro, that they did everything together, that Lori was so close to her, they were Velcro. I'm just gullible as gollable dance.

And she stuck on me like Velcro. She was such a good friend to me, you know what I mean? Like she was close to me. So then she played it down in court and testified that they really weren't that close and blah, blah. Then when you listen to the conversation that she recorded on Chad and Lori. If you really read between the lines, if you can really hear what's going on, and people have speculated about all that, and they think some people have said that they, they knew they were being recorded and they kind of planned it out before they, you know,

before they recorded it, what they were going to say and stuff. I don't believe that because if she was so close to Lori, when, um, I, I, I, in my past, I've had cult experiences and, and the thing that we always, the people with cults have to do is they have to always get a personal reformation that whatever, the, they is the new revelation. You have to know that it's true. Like you have to have like a and you have to have other people that all agree with it. Like if you have more than when, if you have other people who are all saying, yes, it's true. It's true. I know it's true. And the thing that really bothered me about like Lori was saying to, to Melanie, like what happened to you?

What's changed? And you've been talking to David, somebody's gotten a hold of you because all of a sudden, her story's changed. In this recorded call. Again, there's a lot of recordings in this story. You recorded Melanie Gibb. Melanie Gibb recorded Chad and Lori. I decided to call Lori and Chad. And I recorded it.

And so you're talking about when Melanie Gibb recorded their call, Lori's saying you've changed and she's calling Melanie out. And that was a sign to you. Never had any idea that you. You would be the person. I'm asking questions. And I am concerned for you. That is what somebody does when they care. You don't sound like you're concerned.

You sound like your accusatory. You do not sound concerned. You sound pissed off. Exactly. Because if they're Velcro, then Millie is going to know everything. She knew everything. She was right there.

She was a part of all of it. This is my opinion because I've been in, I've been in those situations before. You know every. And so it really, really bothered me because she said she told back the other guy i don't do names guys i'm sorry but the one that was trying to get her to say how close she was to her oh no we weren't that close you know and she says on live recording we were belcro and then um that other interview with um her with lory's nephew

that used to live with them Zach Cox that's son of Adam Cox Lori's brother and Nicole uh Lori's sister-in-law? Yes. He said that Melanie Gibb was there. Because Melanie says here, oh, Lori, Lori did these. She said that Lori did all these things, stole the truck and packed his stuff and got rid of all of it. But he knew that Melanie was right there with her because she was living there at the

time. And Melanie did all of that with her. But on the phone, she was saying to me, oh, Lori did all this stuff. She said, are you sure you're supposed to be doing this? Oh, yeah. Melanie, God's tell me exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. Charles was upset because she just tried to destroy his life. She told him.

She, you know, he was out of town when she found out. And he was in another state. And when she flew back home, she took, she took his truck and hit it, took all the keys and took them from him. Empty all his clothes in the house. I mean, try to destroy his work. Oh, my goodness. And I was like, hey, do you think that's a bit extreme? Like, are you sure you're supposed to do that?

She goes, Melanie, the spirit has told me exactly what. I'm supposed to do. And I'm like, oh, okay. I'll say, yeah. So she was trying to pretend like she wasn't a part of it. But then she, you know what I mean? So in other words, Zach Cox, you're hearing Zach say, Melanie helped Lori move all of Charles's stuff.

Where on the recording, the way Melanie is striving it to you is Lori did all the stuff and she left out that she was part of that. All a part of it. Zach Cox. Exactly. So, um, so I. I just, you know, I, I, I, I just felt like I called her out on, I wrote her something on Facebook. One last message and I just told her. I said her, I just knew that none of it, I don't know.

I just, that she could have saved four people's lives and stuff. And it was just very, very upsetting. And then I deleted everything. I, I, I, well, I saved some of it. I copied it and put it in my notes on my phone. and then I just deleted it and I blocked her because I thought I don't want anything more to do with it because it just it just wasn't true. None of it was, you know. And thanks for explaining that too. So you have, I have some screenshots and copies and paste from your notes, but I don't have screenshots. And so what you're saying is you copied and pasted some of them but deleted everything because of your emotions and feeling fearful.

Yes. Yes. I did. I felt afraid because I, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've. known I've been in experiences where you don't tell. You do not talk about these things or you will end up dead in certain cold things. You just, you don't do it. You can't tell about it. So. Okay. Think, yeah, you know, you're helping bring a lot of clarity. I can't imagine what it felt like talking to someone for the first time and them bringing this up. I can't imagine what I'd

with it. And so you send it to police. You said that you, you admit that you're gullible, that you fall for things on the internet. Do you feel like you fell for preparing a people for a little bit or for Melanie Gibb or this group? Melny Gibb because she, her book was amazing. She had a lot of scripture in it. And it just seemed like she had just this wonderful experience. where she learned how to just be so loving and and I mean I I I'm I'm a caregiver of three adult sons with special needs and and you know I just want to be better and better for them mom for them and so I just like I just like wow it just sounded like too good to be true when it sounds like that then you know it's too good to be true you know and I just thought wow

It was just an amazing thing. But it wasn't anything weird either. It was believable because it wasn't like she didn't say, oh, I had this vision and God came to me and I saw Christ personally. Nothing like that. It wasn't weird like that. It wasn't like out there that, you're like, you know what I mean? It was more like she learned it through study and prayer and stuff.

And so I really thought it was good. But the thing that really, when I saw on the physical copy that it was Chad and Lori that wrote in it, I just threw it in the. trash, I'm like, oh my gosh. If I had known that, if I bought the book way back, then I probably wouldn't even talk to her on the phone. I probably would not even, you know, because I had known she was really incoves with really bad with these people. I know. It's sad. You know, everybody, you know, Chad was such a nice guy.

You said that she would encourage you to read Chad's books early on before the recorded phone call while talking to you and being your friend. Do you recall what she would say about Chad's books or why she wanted you to read them? She said that they were really amazing and that they were, they were too specifically too. I don't even know what they were. But two of them, she said that they really, the way she talked about it was almost like they were like scripture, you know, but that they were really good. I really should read them because it would help me understand. And I said, I don't like that stuff because I'd already gotten afraid of that stuff. I didn't want nothing more to do with this.

The thing that really, okay, this thing that really bothered me was because the people out west when I went to this retreat, that's what it's called a retreat. They were talking about, I don't know Julie, I don't know Julie Roe at all. That's her name, right, Julie Roe? Julie Roe, yeah, you're not familiar with Julie Roe. I wasn't at all. But they just thought, oh, she's amazing. And at the time, she wasn't weird yet.

She'd gone into all these. At that time, she was still doing firesites in church buildings, the LDS church buildings, is before she was excommunicated from the church. And so they told me about her books. So I read her first book. And she said all these things you need to get to be prepared. So that kind of got me in the mindset because you need, like, axes and you need all these tools and things like, you know, just all this stuff that I didn't even think about.

You know, we're told get food and water. But all these other things, does she in a book? So that's what started me at first saying, thinking, anxious. And then as I, the prepared people stuff, they're, you know, testifying of all their visions and their dreams and stuff like that. It was neat, but it was when it came down to, oh, like tents and all these things that you need to buy. I, I just, that's when it just really turned me off because I was like, no, I'm not, I'm not going to live in fear like that. You know, they're like, you have to have your boots right by the side of your bed because

anytime, middle of the night, you get the call, you got to get in those boots. You've got to be ready to just get out of there. And it's terrifying to think of that. Yeah. And they said, oh, we'll send a text to everybody's phone. And then you just got to get out. And I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, I don't know if we have boots or whatever. you know how can we keep boots for all my boys there's special things how am i going to get them

and oh it was just so much it's like how can i get them in their boots and get them out the door and so we're like a prideful group of preppers you know that oh yeah it would be scary that would be scary that would be intense yeah um did she imply that chad's books were real that they was real that there were future events yes yes okay yeah and i already from reading that julie julie Julie Roe when I already said, I don't want to hear this stuff anymore because that, you know, that was enough for me. So I'm just like, no, I don't like, I don't like that kind of stuff. And she's like, oh, I understand. I understand that, but, you know, but they really are good books. Yeah.

Julie Roe got really out of control. She's now put a podcast out about him and Lori. She's like, no, chatting me are friends. He's been friends for a long time. And I know that I, you know, my angels have told me that the kids are safe and they're playing on the beach and everything's fine. Oh my gosh. She's not going to look good when it's so up dead. You know what I'm saying?

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, exactly. She's out of control. What else would you want people to know today? You know, you have been fairly silent minus a few comments on social media here and there. A lot of speculating from people and strangers about you. what else do you want people to know today? Well, this is one of the things I like to say is I am still a member of the Church of Jesus Christ

of Latterty Saints. The nickname of Mormon came a long time ago. Like when the first church first started, they just, because of the book of Mormon, they call it people Mormons that were members. And that made it like, that made it like people thinking that we worshipped other things and that we didn't believe in Christ. But we believe in Jesus Christ. And I think what I'm getting the point of,

and there's a point here is Chad and the teachings about the multiple. Probations. There we go. Thank you. Multiple probations would totally negate the mission of Jesus Christ. They would totally negate it. Christ would never, you don't believe, if you believe in that, you really don't believe in God or Jesus Christ,

because Jesus Christ would not, have had to suffer and die on the cross if he just kept coming back again and again and again and redoing it. He did it. He only had to do it one time. He suffered for everyone. And so it is so way out and left field. If I'd gotten in any inkling that they were weird like this from the beginning, I would have been out of there. When I found out how the children were murdered, I that's what really terrified me because of I've had some past experiences with similar stuff and that terrified me and I thought that it's like a satanic cult ritual the way poor Tiley's body was from and that that was like oh my gosh that was terrifying a little bit of PTSD too oh gosh yes yes

it put me way back I mean that was really hard that that I've I have it put me back that was yeah Sherry Sherry I'll say this Sherry shared some private personal traumatic experiences on the longer tape that was released that I've now heard that was deleted respectfully by those that released the recording True Crime Underground

I'm still getting over my sickness doing my bedside. And is that what you're referring to, those experiences? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but other than that, I feel like, well, it really started with Awen and her friend, Jesse, hearing their take on it, it helped me feel so much better.

Even though I felt like, oh, my gosh, hearing my own voice saying these things, I felt so violated because I knew that I it was recorded you know I gave it to the police how did somebody else get it but it because they're to take on it and they're saying oh she sounds so it helped me because like they were a voice for me you know because they're like saying all these things and that helped me a lot and and then but then I also felt really you know very upset that they would that you know that they got a hold of it somehow Because all I did was give to the police and to begin with, just the police and then just a short little bit to Annie. And after I gave that little bit to Annie, the same similar with you, she wanted to make sure that I knew that she didn't give it to anybody.

Because she didn't have a whole. I don't even know if she knew that she didn't have the whole thing. Right. Because I just, I just, I even reached out to Kafton and left undone because I just, I just, I just, I just reached out to Kafton and left undone because I just, um, I just, I just, just, I just, felt so much guilt. So much guilt. And I didn't give her the cop or anything, but I said, I felt so much guilt about it. And she said, yes, go to the police. If you feel you need to, I think she is one that finally I went to the police because she said, do it. Go to the, if you feel like, you know, tell the police, give it to the police. If you feel like you need to, because I've had, you know,

had people here and cross country saying, oh, you don't want to get involved, you know, just delete it, just get rid of it. And, and I'd say, well, can you listen to it with me? Then I'll like then you would know why it's i feel like i need it no no no we don't want to hear i just just get rid of it you know so i felt like i had this secret again inside and like i was caught in this cold and it was a secret again like when i was a child and it was awful it was awful you know right you didn't ask to be told this horrendous story yeah no and then i thought so bizarre why did anybody believe in zombies that was a craziest thing i've ever heard of it when she said that both the kids were told that I'm like, oh my gosh, they're dead.

She said they're zombies. They're gone now. That was before I knew that she gave his dog away and all those other things, you know. But anyway, yeah. Thank you for sharing what you know. Again, it is clear you didn't want to be involved in this. It was something that happened. And you've been torn and traumatized and confused.

And you didn't want to be a public. figure, I assume, and talked about the way you've been talked about. You know, doing what you felt was the right choice to record. Why are you talking to me today? That's a question I ask everyone. Why did you choose to do this interview? I still feel like I was not, that I felt like they'll victimized as far as I had all this stuff that I didn't know about that I couldn't share with anybody.

you know like it was it was like i was back in a cult as a child again and i couldn't nobody would listen to me that there was something really bad that happened you know and then and i just felt like i got to go to the police but you're taught not to go to the police too when you're in those kind of situations oh no way you go to please you're dead too so on a lebaran who was in a cult growing up her her father was the cult leader erval lebaran i interviewed her and she did express that same sentiment that she was taught to be afraid of the police and not talk to them. Yeah, so, but when I, when, you know, when Catherine on the left and then and she said, yeah, I get with the police. I would do it. And so I was like, finally, somebody's listening to me.

You know, but people are like, oh, you don't want to get involved, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it's like, it wasn't being involved. My gut was, I was, I was trapped in this childhood thing again. And it's like, I, the truth's got to get out. You've got to have a voice. These children need a voice. You know, they, for the poor children, they need a voice because innocent children that are sacrificed like that, it is so evil. And they needed a voice. And I'm like, I don't want to be the one keeping a secret that they're dead, you know. So it's helped to be able to say it, I, yeah, this, I was traumatized by this phone call and I, I didn't mean to do it illegally, but I honestly was afraid for my life. And I thought, well, I'll have this conversation. If I ended up,

dead. I'd have this, this evidence that I was told about all this stuff ahead of time. Right. That makes sense. You were protecting yourself of a self-preservation. Yes. Yep. That's it. Thank you for talking. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. So anyway, I've been humbled. I've been broken down. I mean, holy cow. Just not been fun But anyway I feel peace now

Here stood Anders and Forciker for example It goes not so bad Anders lear sturt Moronroutin Little anglare when you're It's on job Good readning for school

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