Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Crime Nation 'Fatal Devotion' Episode - Behind the scenes with Larry Woodcock and Hidden True Crime

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Larry Woodcock and Hidden True Crime talk about participating in the latest Crime Nation episode released in March 2024--Fatal Devotion. Those in the U.S. can stream the episode for free on The CW app For those new to this twisted case about Doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, and to better understand future episodes-we recommend our full Beyond the Veil season, but if there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow, it’s our May 2nd, 2023 episode titled: "Beyond the Veil: The prequel -Chad daybell and Lori Vallow - the background story you’ve never heard." HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join the married hosts -a forensic psychologist and broadcast journalist - on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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She felt she was doing God's work. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. Hello, Hidden Jens. Happy, what is the day? I don't even know. Is it Thursday?

Thursday. Happy Thursday and midday. We usually don't do midday lives, so we have a very special guest with us here. The Larry Woodcock, or as, you know, also I called him Idaho's Papa. I said, I called him Idaho's Papa during the trial of Lori Valo when you're there. We saw each other every day. So really quickly for those new to this channel and for those that haven't seen the latest Crime Nation episode called Fatal Devotion about the Lori Vallow case, Lori Vallow Chad Daybell case. Here is Larry Woodcock. He is the grandfather, the papa of J.J. Valo, a victim in this case.

And also, I can say, our very dear friend, John and I were also a big part of the episode. All of us filmed in the Las Vegas area. While they didn't film us together, we were all there at the same time. We all watched this episode. Just so you know, we haven't talked to Larry yet about this episode. This is as raw as you're going to get. Larry came on. I said, let's just go.

Let's just talk among friends. So we want to ask Larry about the episode. We want to talk about our feelings about it and watching it. It premiered two nights ago. It was available for streaming for the first time yesterday. And then we want to take you behind the scenes, how it all happened. First off, Larry, did you watch it when it premiered the Crime Nation episode? or did you watch it a day later?

No, we invited some of our just amazing friends here. They wanted to see it also. And we invited them to come into our home and watch it with us. And so we saw it as everybody else saw it. That was probably pretty overwhelming and emotional. How did you do watching that? I can only imagine while it's been four years, it's still so fresh. I'm sure every time you watch something like that, it's real life for you.

True crime is true when it comes to this story for you. The amazing thing, it's, I think the way that I can put it is it's a never-ending movie. And I, we watched the first part. I had no issue. I got vocal a couple of times, but I can't help that. And but I will say that when it came, when it came to JJ towards the latter part, I watched just a short bit of it, then I had to leave. And I hope people understand. It's been over four years, and it's still very emotional for me.

It's very emotional. And I keep thinking and I keep praying that I can get past this somewhat. And I can do that in a lot of circumstances. But when you put the faces together, together, it's hard to because there's, for what reason. You know, John, Dr. John, you and I have spoke about this. And if I could only, if I could only get past that part, I think that it would be just such a relief to me,

I just can't get past that part of the interviews, all of the interviews. When I start speaking about the love and the relationship that I had with JJ, and I can't yet. I don't understand it. And I hope one day that, that John, you can't. say a magic word and put some magic powder dust on it and and and I can but it hurt and so I had to leave for a part at that part I went in the bedroom and and just had to get away from it for a few minutes and then I came back in at the very end but I mean I'm not going to it is what it is.

Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Larry. Every time you talk about it, I feel such empathy for you and try to understand how difficult it is, but I'm not in your position, so I can't know, but I can imagine how difficult it is for sure. It's hard. It's hard, hard. And I keep expecting time to make it not as hard, John. Yeah. But it's, it hadn't got to that point. And, you know, my heart goes out to families, especially in the news and the last, it seems like the last few months of so many families losing children. And it just, it hurts my heart.

It really does. It hurts me. Because I try to make everybody, I try to solve the problems. That's what I've done all my life. Yeah. And it's, I just wish that there was a circle of hugs in the United States for everybody, whether it's the four children lost and, Northern Idaho and the children that have been murdered recently.

You know, it just make it feel better. Yeah. Well, Larry, I want you to know that I'm open to talk about it any time you want. And I think there's no solution here in my mind, but maybe it would help if we just keep talking about it and maybe trying to keep making sense of it. I think part of the problem is, as you just said,

the part of the problem is how senseless the entire situation was, right? And I think that makes it harder to really grasp because it was so pointless. It could have been avoided, should have been avoided. I think that makes it very difficult to understand. It does, John. you know, it was senseless.

It was senseless. We'll leave it at that. Yeah. Right. I'm sure there's still some anger there, I'm sure. You have no idea the anger. But I can honestly say, John, that that's one of the things that I have come to terms and to grips with is to a certain extent.

I have to admit, John, I'm not quite as angry at those two and the circle. And y'all certainly know what I mean by that. Yeah. But I do not forgive them. I will never forgive that circle of friends. or users or whatever they are. I will never forgive them for that. But, you know, I'll be 77 next month.

And I'm trying so hard to not be angry, John. I've really been working on that. but sometimes when I see those that documentary of the night man it's hard it's hard it's very hard what what struck you the most

about the documentary did anything stand out for you honestly the one thing that I thought was it was a fair it was a fair documentary I'm anxious to get your input on that I thought overall It was a good interview.

And I didn't like the fact that they opened up with Laurie's family. To me, they have no value. And they added no value. But I'm not in control of that. And that's part of trying to get past the end. anger that that I have. And, you know, everybody's going to eventually have to come to grips with this. And you would think after four years that we have come to grips, but we haven't, John, not totally. Yeah. I really appreciate your honesty because I,

from my perspective, you've been an amazing ambassador for the families and the victims, and you've been a real peacekeeper in many ways. You know, I always remember the moment after the bodies were found, and you went over to Chad's home, and you made a statement to the media, and I can't imagine you showed such composure. It hurt, John. It really hurt. Yeah.

But, you know, it's not about me. This has never been about K and I. This has always been about the kids. The first time I was on in being interviewed, where are the kids, we're the children, we're the children. And now it's not only, where is JJ? Where is Tiley? Where are all the missing kids?

Why do people who are so able to see and watch and follow these stories? I swear, it seems like it's daily, weekly, monthly now. For what? If you don't want your children, turn them over to your relatives, turn them over to your friends. Turn them over to people who want and love children and want to see the best for them. That's all I've ever wanted. I just wanted JJ. We had no idea what had happened to those children.

You all know that. Everybody knows that. and all we ever wanted was we just wanted JJ and we just wanted Tiley back. My home was open to all of them and it's so uncalled for. I hope if there's anything in America that happens not just because of our situation

that America will start seeing. When you've got relatives, friends that are having issues and there's children involved, ask for help. Just ask for help. And I mean, I can't fix everybody's problem. God, if I could, I would do it and never even, I'd do it to my last breath. But let's stop killing.

let's stop raping. Let's stop sex traffic and children. It's got to end. At some point, our representatives that we elect, that we pay outrageous money to, that we pay the benefits and everything that goes with this,

at what point are they going to say enough is enough is enough. there's got to be a way, John. There's got to be away, Lauren, that somebody has to stand up and say, no, we're not going to do this to children. I'm sorry. I just, it's so senseless.

I have a question for Larry and John, my husband, John. Larry, you mentioned that in your healing process, you won't ever be able to forgive the circle of friends. And I understand that. Yeah, I understand. And I think sometimes there are sometimes people that come up on our channel. This is my question for John, that they say forgiveness is part of healing. But I don't know if that's necessarily true.

And I was wondering if maybe John, you could talk about that or Larry too, because I think it just depends on where we are and the person. I mean, I'll let Larry speak to this in a minute, but I think everybody has a different approach. And what works for someone won't work for someone else, right? And so I think grieving is, to me, grieving is a very individual idiosyncratic process. And so when I hear, you know, in our field, sometimes people talk about the stages of grieve for the way, grief should be, you know, how we should find closure. And my response to that is, I don't know if any of that's true. I don't think there's stages. I think it depends on the person and their experience and whether they forgive or not, that's entirely up to them.

Totally agree. Yeah. Whether someone can find closure, you know, I don't know if there's such thing as complete closure. I don't believe there is. I am trying so hard for closure. I cannot forgive them. I can't. I'm sorry. You don't kill. You don't murder.

You can't be involved in the attempted murder. And that circle, not one of them. ever said, enough is enough. This is going to end. This is not what the Lord intended. This is not how human beings allow this to happen. That is senseless. No, that circle will always, I will never respect them,

I will never accept them and I never will forgive them because all it would have taken is one person to say enough is enough is enough. This is crazy. You see something, how many thousands of times have officials been on TV? You see something, say something. at some point the public has to see priorities children are our priorities and at my age there what counts

my grandchildren my life's about my grandchildren my life is about so many amazing children children. I'm Papa and I want them to know my phone is available 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Let's start changing what our perspective and life is about as a nation. Whether it starts in the city, in the care, in the parish, the county, the state. let's start changing things.

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order at happy mammoth.com. That's happy H-A-P-P-Y-M-M-M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use use the code hidden true crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. All of the child welfare services, when do you start doing your job like you're supposed to do it? Thank you, Larry. Thank you for bringing up the circle of friends

and that there were people that could have said something. And many of these people will be witnesses. at the upcoming trial. You'll be in the courtroom with him from Chad Daybell, and I think, and I hope that you can find strength during those times knowing what you said,

and I hope that they hear you. I do too. You know, not one of them. Not one of them. Not one, one person in that circle has ever reached out to our family.

Wow. All right. I'm living with the results of that. Guess what, group? Y'all are going to live with it now because the honest is on you. And I hope that you can't live with it. Knowing that two children died,

knowing that people died. And you could have simply said at any time, quit. I'm out of this. I don't care what your religious belief is. Or if there's no religious belief, stop killing our kids. Stop abusing our kids. Stop selling our kids. Enough is enough.

Larry is referring to answer this question. Who are the circle of friends? Larry is referring to those that believe Chad and Lori and had these same like-minded beliefs and were part of their friends circle, while the children were alive and when the murders happened. That's who he's referring to many people that could have said something, and they chose not to. Even including during the investigation,

it took all of them a very long time to come forward. Yeah. All of them. And I don't understand, I don't understand Lori Chad to begin with. I don't think anybody on earth, I don't think, I don't even know if Dr.

Dr. John, the smartest man, I know everything that this brilliant man does, and I am not blowing smoke up his ass. I am telling you right now. Thanks, Larry. How does anybody look in the mirror day in and every morning, every night and say, no, this was wrong. And live with themselves. And I don't understand it, John. I don't. And Lauren, how you do what you do? I still, y'all are amazing. I mean, this show is amazing. And I'm not saying that because I'm sitting here. And not because y'all are two of our closest friends. I'm saying it because it is the truth. And it's time for the truth to start getting out. Stop. the kids from being used, sold, and murdered.

It's got to stop. Thank you. It does. And that is why we continue hidden true crime and why we will be covering this trial, Larry, the upcoming trial, Chad Davao's trial, Lurys is over. But Chad Davell's trial is coming up in just a few weeks. And we will cover this thing beginning to end. I'm going to be out there with y'all.

I know exactly where you're staying and I'll be over there. and you know where I'm, you know, I'm staying, and we're going to see this through, and John's going to even try to venture it to Boise as well. Hey, John. Yeah, thank y'all so much. I don't know how long y'all want to talk. I'll get off my mad box right now, and, I mean, we can have happy conversations, but I want to thank y'all from the bottom of my heart for every day.

you all do and supporting the victims supporting just listen just listen to John y'all listen to what he has to say listen to him and if it's not John find you a great counselor get help my God what would have changed in life in the last four years if Lori and Chad had just got help. Yeah. It's so easy to ask for. And even the circle, get help. It's too late now.

I can't get JJ back. I can't get Tiley back. But you know what? You circle. Y'all tried to make things better for yourself and for us. others. For those that are just joining, oh, go ahead, John. No, no.

I just want to say, I feel like I need to compliment Larry and Kay as well. I mean, you guys have just been tireless advocates for justice and for children and for, as you said, it's become about now all the missing kids, not your missing kids, but all the missing kids. And I can't think of anyone who's done a better job and had a stronger voice. than you guys, Larry. And for that, I'm really grateful because, as you know, a big part of our show and our mission is to advocate for kids. Yeah, it is, John.

And that's the reason, I mean, as far as I'm concerned, you know, y'all have got such a great show. And it's so informative. The education that I get out of this is amazing. I mean, I've never been involved in psychology and especially in the way that you do it. And the experience that you have and experience Lauren's got. And you merge those two together. And I don't know why you don't have a five o'clock talk show nationwide every day.

I mean, I'm... If we did have a talk show, Larry, you're going to be our first guest. I think we'll have you on. We'll have you on all week. I don't think your audience could stand at all. For those just joining us because we've doubled our viewers' lives since we started, we're talking with Larry Woodcocki as the grandfather, the papa of victim, J.J. Valo, when it comes to the Lori Valo and Chad Dayball case, and he was just part of

the crime nation episode as were we that aired on Tuesday called fatal devotion and that is what we're talking about and you can still stream that for free on the CW app we were talking about the behind the scenes filming and how they you they flew you out to Las Vegas and they got an Airbnb or a home to film and all of three of us including K four of us we were filmed at the same location although all different days which sort of put a damn barren big because we wanted to get together a lot more. But I was filming one day and then John was filming one day and then you and then Kay. But I was sort of surprised to see you and Kay in separate scenes too.

Did they film you together on the same couch? They do separate. Both. Okay. I was wondering that. I was wondering that. The film crew was amazing. And, you know, as everything in life, I wish we had a read.

do. There's a couple of things that I'd love to have expressed differently, a little bit more poignant. Fair enough. Imagine that. But I thought that CW did a great job. I was a little bit hesitant. I didn't know exactly because we absolutely knew nothing. It's a new series, too. It's a We don't know. You know, fingers crossed, yeah. Yeah, but I am, I was very pleased with it. And honestly, Lauren, you know yourself. We really haven't been betrayed anything other than ourselves.

You included, Dr. John, you included in that. But there's always something. We wish we could change. Yeah, always. Well, I'm going to tell the viewer's little secret. I didn't know if I was going to let the secret out. But you know what, John? I'm telling on you.

I'm telling on Dr. John, he has not yet watched it. But he hasn't. But let me explain why. He hasn't watched it because he just can't stand watching himself on TV. He does not watch our lives once we finish ever again. I do all the editing. And I have to put my ear. phone's in because he refuses to listen to his voice. He's not watched the date line that he was in.

I barely got him to watch the Netflix doc. But he is not watched this because it's just so hard for him to be on camera. But I told him a lot about it and I wanted to show him one clip that I promised him he's not a part of. But that Crime Nation sent me that I was allowed to share here. So sorry, John, to out you. Yeah, no, that's okay. I think, I've talked about it. Get over it, John. You're gone, man. Get off your ass.

Come on. Get in the game. Put your hell now. I think for me, I don't, you know, just quickly on this issue, when I do a report, a court report or an evaluation, I put my heart in it. And it's, it's so, it takes so much focus and energy that oftentimes I just want to complete it and put it away and not think about it. And it's sort of like that with these documentaries. You know, I spent seven hours with the film crew and I tried to focus on every question.

And I just, when I finish that, I just want to walk away from it. I don't want to go revisit it. I don't want to critique myself, right? Like it's- Oh, I have to critique myself. Yeah, right? No, uh-uh, son. Yeah. And that's hard, though, right? It is. It's hard. And you know what? I've come to to believe in myself, John, just be yourself. Just be who you are. I'm not going to try to be a New York, whatever. Not going to be West Coast. I'm a Cajun from South Louisiana. I'm vocal. I'm opinionated. And I'm going to be that. And, you know, and that's part of life. John.

I agree. Here's what I wanted to show you. This is a clip that Crime Nation sent us. And I want to show you and I want to ask your thought. There's a big room and she had it lined the walls, lined with mirrors and he said every night she gets in there and she dances for two to three hours. Charles tried to embrace her sort of extreme beliefs as much as he could without understanding. without understanding them. He tried to be welcoming to her new friends,

but it got weirder and weirder, stranger and stranger. Charles called me one day. He said, she dances, and she records herself, and she's sending it to some guy named Chad Daybill. And I said, well, who is he? And he said, well, he's in that crazy religion stuff she's doing. I told Charles, if they're not having an affair, they're

getting ready to. I can tell you that much. But, but, but, uh, I wanted to bring this up, this dancing, uh, video. Yeah, Aaron is saying the dancing is freaky. That's not religious. She was being seductive. Nitty gritty is saying, oh, m. I've never heard about these two to three hour nightly dancing sessions before. So creepy. John and I didn't know about them. John has actually talked about these dancing sessions before we did a full Patreon episode. We do, uh, Patreon episodes. the bonus episodes on patreon.com slash hit into crime. And he talked about the dancing. But John, I wanted to, I was wondering if you could share a bit of your thoughts.

I think she's trying to entice Chad Daybell to enter a relationship. Actually, well, I'm trying to think. At that point, at that point, they were together, right? Yeah. They were together. They were together. And Charles discovered the video. So Charles Valo discovered the dancing videos that Lori was sending to Chad, dancing with something Lori always liked to do.

We've even heard from some jailmates that she would dance in jail. So it sounds like something she still wants to do. But at this situation, she was not only having these dance sessions, she was recording herself and sending these videos to Chad Debao, who's on trial next month. and then Charles discovered the dancing videos being sent to Chad Daybill and told Kay about them and Kay saw some of the videos. This is what you compared it to, John. Well, it was actually a hidden gem that actually brought this up and we watched it. But she pictured the Joker. Does that refresh your memory?

That was, so that was dancing in jail. But that's what I mean. She would dance. Right. That was dancing in jail. There's a distinction between. So I think the dancing that they referenced in the show is a little different than the dancing in jail. The dancing in.

So the Joker, the Joker moment in the movie with the one with Joaquin Phoenix is that he commits his first murder. And then he finds this bathroom and he gets into this kind of ecstatic state where he dances. But I think that's a little different. So that's what she was doing in jail. So people should know she continued the dancing in jail, which to me was more like the Joker moment, almost this, almost the celebration of what they had accomplished, which makes it even more disgusting and sicker, right?

But it so the moment, the dancing moment from the show you're talking about, I think was more purely provocative. and sexual, as Larry points out. I've always thought, and I've said it many times. I thought that it was her escape from reality that she was placing herself in another time zone. She was out of the reality of the day and what life was.

I wrong, John, or is that? Yeah, no, I agree. I think there's a, there's a dissociative component, meaning that she's not oriented in reality. She's, I think there's definitely, with her dancing in general, both the ones that she sent to Chad and the ones in the jail, I think there's this element of being dissociated from reality. Yeah, I think that's, that's always been a big question with her,

is, you know, how much is she oriented to, you know, to reality and to the world? How much does she understand? How delusional is she? How paranoid, right? All those questions always crop up with Lori. Yeah. It's always been my thought that she was trying to escape to something else, to, you know, to be away from the reality of the day.

And I mean, I'm, I just believe what I believe. And I think that's about the best I can put it. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that John and I, before this came out that we would joke about is John told me that during his interview, which I wasn't a part of, that they kept pushing him to reword. things, as in dumb it down. Can you, can you say it in more simplistic terms?

Imagine that. And one of them was, one of them was the pendulum about the pendulum, Chad DeBel's pendulum. And John, you know, at one point they got like the boss on the phone with John, like the head of the production company is on the phone with them to say, can, you know, tell me about the pendulum. And I guess John didn't give him. What's so funny is we thought the pendulum would be a huge talking point for John because of the way they pushed them. John, I watched it. They didn't have you say a single thing about the pendulum. They had the other reporter from Arizona, that incredible reporter from Arizona talk about the pendulum, because I think in the end, they finally gave up

with you, John, and they just couldn't get out. Let me tell the pendulum story. So the, you know, I'd been interviewing for, first of all, on the dummy down point, in fairness, they never used that term. That would be my interpretation. They never, she would, the person that was interviewing me, she would stop and say, she would think about my answer and she would say, can you say that a different way? No. And they like me to, they're asking me to say it a different way, no.

And I'm like, I just spent five minutes giving what I thought was the perfect answer. Now you want me to say it a different way. So my translation is you wanted me to totally dummy it down. So then I would try to. But I don't know what they used in the end. But the pendulum story is I'd been there for like four hours. And all of a sudden this voice comes out of nowhere, like from the wall. And I'm looking around.

I can't see anyone. I'm thinking, what is going on? And it's from a speaker. And so they all, they all let me know, oh, that's the, you know, that's the big boss. That's the guy who owns all this, right? He wants to, he wants to ask a few questions.

So, of course, I had to take that seriously. And his first, he, this first question was about the pendulum. And he said something to the effect of, don't you think that the. Do you know about the pendulum? I said, yeah, of course. You know, most people, Lauren and I talk about the pendulum all the time because it's...

A.k.a. owl necklace that Chad found in a church. I'm sure some 11-year-old lost it and he picked it up, said it was his, and that it was magical. That's what we're talking about here. Some people think Chad's pendulum sounds weird. We're not talking about the storm. We're talking about the pendulum. Exactly what it is. It's exactly what it is.

Okay. Right. So it's like this $5. or pendulum that you could get from Clairs. There's another place in the mall that sells like cheap jewelry. What's the name of that thing? Anyway. I don't know. One of those places.

Yeah, one of those places. It's like this little piece of costume jewelry. Forever 21. Whatever. Yeah. Yeah, but he attributes magical properties to this owl pendulum. And so the, the, he's on the speaker and he says, he's kind of trying to, he's asking leading questions. He's trying to, you know, get me to say something and he says, well, don't you think this is a little bit of a parlor

trick? And that was his, you know, do you think this is a parlor trick? And I mean, I mean, yes and no. You know, my problem with that question was, what his implication is that chat is a total con man who's just making all of this up, right? but you don't go to the extremes they went to if you're just making it all up. So in other words, is it a parlor trick? Yeah, maybe to some degree, but he really believes it too.

It's a hard question to answer because a parlor trick is performed by someone who knows it's fake, someone who's trying to con people typically. And Chad isn't quite that, right? It's complicated. So I gave an answer the way I'm kind of answering here. Like, well, yes and no.

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That's M-O-O-D-com to get started. very yes he's a bit of a comment but he really believes it you know after the question from the boss about the pendulum i knew knew that pendulum was going to find its way into this show it did it did just not with you though they were like we're done with him they're done they were done with you after about 30 minutes of trying to get the pendulum answer from me i guess he wasn't satisfied i just you know larry we're so appreciative you coming today as a there anything else that you want to stay today? You know, first of all, thank y'all, as always.

We miss y'all, and I miss my little buddy. And, you know, I think the only thing I can end with is what I have said very vocally in this interview is it's got a, It's not about me anymore. It's not about K. It's not about our family anymore. Now we've got to get beyond this. And we need to do what I think I said,

which I think is right. Let's don't let this happen to anybody else. I think it's time, as I said, for people to stop realizing this has to end. It's getting too prevalent. It's, I just don't understand it. If there's a problem, seek help. There's too many great minds out there,

doctors out there, Dr. John. Seek help, get help. Let's don't do this anymore. It's got to stop. We're older. We're the adults quit this. How does a predator get up in the morning and look at themselves in a mirror and said and think or says, I'm going to hurt a child today. I'm going to hurt a child. I'm going to run a child's life. I'm going to kill a child today. Get help. Asked. for help, beg for help, get on your knees and pray to the Lord, get help. Something has got to change. And John and Lauren, thank you so much. And thanks everybody for listening to this old man, just kind of rant and rave. And hug your children.

Hug your children tight. Hug your grandchildren. Hug your great-grandchildren. Tell them you love them, protect them, be willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for them. No hesitation. I would do it, and I'll preach that as long as I can. Let's love our children, and let's hold them for the precious things they are. Thank you, John. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you, Larry. Thank you, Larry. You have a wonderful day, and we'll see you in just a few weeks in Idaho. Absolutely. Before we go, I just wanted us maybe to share a little bit about the upcoming week before we take off.

What are we doing this hidden hour? We will be talking about the Rust trial. And there was a verdict yesterday. The verdict was guilty of involuntary manslaughter for Hannah Gutierrez Reed. She was the defendant, and the verdict just came back. down and we'll be talking about that because it's it differs a little bit from the typical cases that we talk about. Usually the cases we talk about involves some degree of premeditation and this doesn't. And so I do I do get involved in cases by the way where murders are more

impulsive rather than premeditated. But this isn't even that. This is something else. So I think it's it's an interesting situation and it gives us a chance to really think about a crime that's a bit different and involves involuntary manslaughter and it raises a lot of interesting questions for me like who's to blame that's the central issue so we'll be talking about that issue of who's to blame in this type of situation and that's what we'll be discussing Saturday night yeah and it will be interesting, Alec Baldwin will also be going to trial later this year when it comes to this film Rust and the loss of Helena Hutchins. Just completely unnecessary killing of an innocent person and a mother. And so we want to continue following this case.

For those that don't know, we now have a trial. We have a sister channel. It's called Hidden True Crime Trial. We just finished streaming the Rust trial there, and we will continue to be streaming many trials there as well. Today is day one I want to share of the James Crumbly trial. Ethan Crumbly was someone that was a school shooter, and James is his dad. And that's just beginning today on our trial. We also want to be able to talk about that as well.

So many of the trials we start streaming on our Hidden True Crime trial, we will be discussing here at Hidden True Crime so you can go get caught up. So thank you. Please hit subscribe. And please hit subscribe here as well. Thank you, Rebecca. She says, between Larry's words and the crumbly trial, I've been moved to reach out to my daughter twice this afternoon,

just checking in and sending love. Thank you. We have Tom here as well. Tom, a juror for the Lori Ballo trial. he says you guys did an amazing job in that documentary and that episode, that Crime Nation episode. Thank you, Chom. We appreciate you so much. Also, I did just want to share a few updates with Hidden True Crime.

Jod and I are planning and covering the Daybill trial in detail. I will be in Idaho, right, John? And you might show up as well. Yep, I'll be joining you. One of the things that I want to mention about our trial channel, too, is that we will be more active, actively involved in covering some of those trials, that we will actually attend some of those trials. We will comment on some of those trials live.

So we'll be more involved. Right now we're just streaming them, but we will also be participating in some of those trials, especially cases that we've followed closely and that we've covered and analyzed a lot. So look for that. And this crumbly trial sets a major precedent. This is the first time when it comes to this type of crime that parents have been charged. And Ethan's mother was found guilty of manslaughter. So this is a very fascinating crime about families and family systems.

And I think it's something that really is important to the hidden true crime community. And so we are watching that as well as many other crimes that you guys have suggested. We watch. We are watching them and we are following along. Also, I wanted to share that we are so close to 144,000 subscribers. Lori and Chad wanted their 144 followers. I think they got about five, four, five of them. And clearly they didn't have the right idea. So we are now collecting a good group of beautiful hidden gems, 144,000.

and not for the end of the world, but to support victims and survivors and to learn and understand bits of ourselves as we followed true crime. So thank you to those who subscribe. And John, is that Bellagio pool party still going on or do you have regrets? I think we're going to have to revive it. I think it's been, the party's been laying dormant. And we, you know, we haven't been growing that. quickly. So I thought we might reach the 144,000, but we just keep growing drip by drip, which is great, because I think we're growing by word of mouth, which is the most powerful way

to create a community because the people who do subscribe to us, they seem committed and somewhat loyal to us, and we appreciate that, and they participate. So we love that, but it's taken a little bit of time to get to the 144. We're not, I don't think we're quite, as charismatic as Chad in our gathering. So it's taken time. But I do, I do have an owl pendulum.

A wonderful hidden gem sent me. She had an owl pendulum. And I have it. I wish I had it right here. But maybe that's what we need to do. A parlor trick. Swing it back and forth. Just kidding.

I never would. Don't worry. Well, you can, you can wear it to the party. So, but the, that can be your necklace for the party. At the pool party.

being a swimsuit and an owl pendulum? Yeah, for sure. You got to have the owl pendulum, especially because we talked about it. So I think I'm open to reviving the party and bringing it back to life and maybe we can do it this summer.

And if we can get to the 144, I mean, we've got to crack the 144. So I don't know. Before the end of Chad's trial, I mean, come on. Like they got to five, let's show them what a real 144 looks like, a real a real powerful.

I'm already thinking about names like maybe the, I thought maybe the hidden apocalypse party. Hidden apocalypse because there's really no apocalypse. It's hidden. You won't see it. The unapocalypse party.

Maybe it's the unapocalyptic party. I don't know. Our gems I want to put our gems to work thinking about a name for this party. But my initial attempt here is the hidden apocalypse party. We want to have some type of celebration for our community and our show and mostly for our

community and just celebrate and reaching, you know, a milestone that we never thought we would reach, which would be 144,000. Yes, the apot luckus of the potluckus party 2024. Do you think that Bellagio would let us just have a potluck in their pool? Just be like, Hey guys, bring the funeral potatoes this way. We need the tuna casserole over here. You said in the pool. I don't think they would let us do it in the pool. Maybe.

The side, just have a potluck. I don't think they're going to allow like funeral potatoes floating in the pool. Yeah, maybe. On this side, we got the baked beans and the burgers. Maybe have you on the grill in the Bellagio pool. Not in it, but I mean, I mean, you know. I think they'll let us use the deck, but we probably need to cater it. I don't know. We'll reviving this idea.

You guys are coming up with these amazing ideas. We need a flash mob party in the Bellagio pool. Yeah, that too. Green Jello. Yeah. So we would do, obviously we'd be there. We'd do some type of meeting greet. Maybe we would do a show.

I think maybe we'd do a live show from a room at the Bellagio. And you guys, we'd welcome everyone to attend. We're going to have to start planning a little bit, I think, if we're going to do this. But let's see what our interest is. I am dying at all the joke. Someone said you can bail us out of jail after. Someone else says, there's no way the Bellagio would probably allow us to bring our baked beans in.

But then someone said, well, we could just portal them. And then hopefully it won't storm. If it does, it'll be just a drizzle. Yeah, that's a good point. Don't forget the Jolly Ranchers for lipstick. I'm sure it lasts while in the pool. John, I think you should be in a swimsuit and the owl pendulum, not me, by the way. I think I'm going to give that outfit to you.

That would be totally Vegas, a swimsuit with just a pendulum, you know. Yeah, the world's largest end time podcast, Larving Gathering World Book of Records. We could feature dark and stormy drinks. We'll have the Lori Vallow fruit salad joke, maybe a bad joke, But we'll have the Lori Valo now the Kay Woodcock funeral, or not funeral potatoes, potato salad. McSpunky, we'll be doing synchronized swimming routines. Do you hear that McSunky if you're not here? McSunky has to be there for sure.

Portal the pasta. Bring your ukulele, you guys. Right. That means that, well, can we get the, what kind of. they were wearing Hawaiian lays too, right? Like white? Were they white? We need those. Yeah, white lays and a ukulele.

You have the ring, unfortunately, or fortunately, I don't know. John, our wedding ring, unfortunately, resembles. Lori Valos, we're sorry. The first time Kay Woodcock saw that, she thought it was a joke. It is not Malachite.

It is turquoise, and we had it first. Yeah, we eloped. We eloped in on our, wedding certificate, Alex Cox is our witness. That's real. Yeah, it's crazy. But this, yeah, this ring was 2016. So, so we beat, no, 2015. So we, we, we, we were way ahead of them. We were way ahead of them. Well, Kathy is saying, I have an owl necklace with CTR in the middle of it. Can I bring it? And then she said, it's actually my favorite necklace, but you kind of ruined it for me. It's, it's not evil. No, I know. It kind of ruined our beautiful wedding ring for us when we saw a

matched the Amazon wedding ring. So it's okay. You just move on. You realize you're a good person and it has nothing to do with it. We love, we love our wedding ring still. We bought it and near where we eloped. But it is true. Then we got a photographer who happened to be our witness and his name just happened to be Alex Cox too. So there's some strange things. And you proposed, you proposed on February 14th, 2016. No, 2000. When did you? It was 16. 16, which Ghostbuster says is going to be the end of the world. It wasn't.

You proposed me that day, but we've always been into end times. It's not Malachite. It's a turquoise party. Everyone has to wear a cheap owl necklace. Yes. We'll invite Julie Rowe. I will absolutely invite her. We'll have some.

Julie Rowe can be our keynote speaker. Yes. she can remind us of all the earthquakes and foreign invasions that are coming our way Carolyn is saying wait your witness's name was Alex Cox for real pictures or it didn't happen we've actually shown it I have shown our wedding certificate before on here but I will pick there didn't happen I take your challenge Carolyn I'll post it later why don't you post that on Facebook or something so anyway yeah and so the 100 to first 144 you guys will all know you were the original 144 because of course we hope to get to

200,000 and beyond, but the original 144, you'll know who you are. And we absolutely want to have an pot, a pot luckus. I can't say it. The original, the original 144, we'll always have a special place in our heart. Yes. Yes. And in our pendulums. If we get little, what are they called trinket pendulums? I don't know. So anyway, there's McSpunky. McSponkey, did you hear that you're doing synchronized swimming? Oh, Mixponky, even better.

He's bringing in all the food, the food storage. It's bringing the food storage. I don't know. Now it sounds like it's not going to be very appetizing. Like, you're going to have a lot of rice? What are we going to be eating for? Guys, don't worry. We'll have it, Kate.

Or we'll have it carried. Or we'll have Troublemaker Baker, our amazing Mod Troublemaker Baker. cater it. We'll figure it out. We'll figure it out. But keep the ideas coming. This is too funny. This is too funny. But of course it'll be after Chad's trial. And we just want you guys to know that we are planning on covering Chad's trial in detail. If you want to know what we're thinking right now, we plan to live stream the entire trial on hidden chew crime. We're going to be doing a morning stream. And then we're going to break. And then I'm going to do a live. Just like those lunch lives at Lori Vallis trial, I'm going to be doing lunch lives. And then we'll go back to streaming in the

afternoon and I'll come back out and do a live again. That's the plan right now. And then John will come on and give us his thoughts every day as well. Oh yeah. And then Stamping Up, we, I'm sorry, I just, I just digress, but Stamping Up can send out all of our invites. I'm sorry. Now we're like blending cases we're covering. I'm sorry. For those that don't know about that, go watch our Stamping Up playlist. Let me see you are on it. it today. Yeah, somehow, somehow I feel like they might refuse that order, but I don't know. I doubt it. You know, if, if, uh, if they're having any issues because of their daughter's notoriety,

then they'll probably take any order thrown their way. So, so yes, I think they probably Tim Ballard's, to Ballard speaking, Tim Ballard speaking fees have probably gone down. so we can too many bad jokes. Probably still out of our league though but yeah. Okay. Anyway, we had too much fun here.

We'll get back to, we'll get back to sometimes I always say if you don't laugh, you cry. And when you cover true crime, there's a time to be serious and sometimes there's a time where you just have to have

a little bit of dark humor and laugh. I'm married to a psychologist so I can say right, babe, validate me. Right? I used to say, if you can't smile at the void, then you'll never find joy. If you can't smile at the void, then you'll never find joy. Thank you.

And with that, I think we have the name of our party, or at least the T-shirts we're going to be handing out. We survived the non-aphylactic party. That was a beautiful quote. say that one more time. Thank you. It's if it was if you if we can't smile at the void, then we'll never find joy.

That's much more profound than my if you don't laugh, you cry. Thank you. And you know what? Larry Woodcock's interview was heavy and I listened to every word he said and it was so important and it was profound and I'm glad that we can also though remember the little things of life and and laugh together. I have to mention somebody's now riffing on Jody Hildebrand's book title, The Not Not Apocalypse. Let's go with the not the not-not apocalypse party.

How about something like that? There you go. Oh, Shelley's flowers. That's the name. think we have it. So we're going to have a not not apocalypse with invites that we will be portaling made by stamping up. And the weather will be nice and sunny and there will be no storms.

And the photo booth will be in the distortion room. Okay. All right. everyone. Thanks for laughing with us and crying with us. This was quite the, quite the midday show. Thank you so much for being the hidden gems you are. And thank you for following along. Thank you for subscribing and hitting notifications. We are still planning trial coverage, but we also, we do have a lot more involved. But those are those are the basics. And after this is said and done, we will all need a break. I think many of you probably remember how heavy.

the Lori Valadebel trial was for me and all of us. And so it is a perfect time to have a break and we'll be able to maybe get together and smile and laugh as well at our not not apocalypse with our original 144. Thank you, everyone. And thank you to Larry Woodcock, who is a dear friend who came on to share. And for those, again, they haven't watched the Crime Nation. It's the latest crime nation episode. And Brian Enton says hello as well.

He was going to jump on, but he is out of town. But he is also a part of this. And we will also be on a podcast, I think, talking about it with Brian as well. But definitely check it out. You can stream it for free on the CW app. And I'm sorry to our overseas gems. I'm not sure exactly how you can see that. All right, everyone.

Have a great day. And we'll see you Saturday. Is that right, John? Saturday? Yep. Yeah, Saturday. Right. Okay, we'll see you guys. All right.

Bye. Goodbye. Hello, Hidden Gems. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early release.

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