Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Did Lori Vallow Daybell suffer from Munchausen by Proxy?

Episode Date: February 2, 2024

This episode revisits parts of our podcast episode Beyond the veil: The Secrets of Loi Vallow Daybell, Part 2 published in July of 2023. As we've been discussing the case of gypsy Rose, and recently interviewed Kate -a survivor of factitious disorder imposed by another, previously known as Munchausen by Proxy , we felt it was important to reexamine a question many continue to ask us: Did Lori Vallow Daybell suffer from Munchausen by Proxy, and was her daughter Tylee Ryan her victim years before Tylee was murdered?  Dr John takes us through the evidence and research exploring this possibility. A forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Lori Vallow Daybell's mind, and the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, u I and c e.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. This episode revisit some parts in our podcast episode Beyond the Veil, the Secrets of Lori Valo Daybell part two. recorded on April 1st, 2023, published here in July of 2020. As we've been discussing the case of Gypsy Rose and recently interviewed Kate, a survivor of factitious disorder imposed by another

previously known as Moon Chausen by proxy, we felt it was important to re-examine a question many continue to ask us. Did Lori Valo DeBelle also suffer from Moon Chauzen by proxy and was her daughter, Tiley Ryan, her victim, years before Tiley was murdered? Dr. John takes us through the evidence and research exploring this possibility, and we share a chilling moment from Lori Vallow speaking at her own sentencing, where the now convicted mother tells the world just how sick Tiley always was, and how, as her mother, she was the only one who truly took care of Tiley. We also hear a jailhouse call between Lori and her only surviving child, Colby Ryan, as he demands answers from his mom about his murdered siblings. Now, a side note before we begin,

If you know of someone that might value our work, please share our podcast as we continue to grow and hope to bring you so much more in 2024. We plan to cover the full trial of Chad Daybell scheduled later this year. And if you want to support our work on a monthly basis or join Dr. John's monthly book club, please sign up at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. We have heard from several people about Tiley always being sick. There's diagnoses, there are multiple diagnoses of Pachry of TIE. which it seems in these diagnoses to have no clear cause. So the question here becomes, and this is from, by the way, this is from a Gardeum ad litem report to the court, July 15th, 2009.

I'm just going to quote this in the same period of time. Tiley was age six. She was diagnosed with pancreatitis, having had two episodes requiring hospitalization between February of 2006 and 2008. There's clear documentation of pancreatitis and many other elements, back pains that are inexplicable that have no clear cause. This raises the question of whether this is some version of factitious disorder imposed on another, otherwise previously known as Moochhausen's biproxy syndrome.

Here is Lori speaking about Tiley just before Judge Boyce sentenced her to life behind bars. Tiley suffered horrible physical pain her whole life. I sat with Tiley in the hospital year after year after year while she screamed in pain when the morphine wasn't even enough to take away the pain of her pancreatitis. I sat there while she cried and I held back her hair while she threw up. And I am the only person on this earth who knows how much Tiley suffered in her life. She had pain every single day. She never felt good.

Her body did not work right. And I don't know if that was from complications, from me dying while she was being born, or something else, but she had a very difficult life. Chad Debo says, this is when Chad was giving Lori a blessing. So Chad refers to himself as James.

He refers to Lori as Elena in many of these texts. So Chad is talking to Lori here, writing to Lori. He says, as they stayed in that favorite position, he moved his hands to her head and began to cleanse and parify each part of her body. This is the important part. Quote, he could feel the pains and troubles

she had endured throughout her life, being removed from her soul, and being taken outside and destroyed. There's some implication there by Chad that the pains and trouble she had endured throughout her life. There's some clear reference, illusion there to abuse. He's not telling us specifically what it is. We don't know if this is

abuse in the family or domestic violence. In any case, making a clear reference here, I think, to abuse. He knows something about trauma she's experienced, and he's using that in this moment to say that he's washing it all away and that he understands. It appears that there are some risk factors for some types of abuse in the Cox family. At the very least, I think we can say that Lori, from a young age when she was married as a, was she married as a teenager? I think it was. She was, right? They were boyfriend and girlfriend in high school, and I believe she was still a teenager when they got married, perhaps 18, but yes. Okay. So, but the point is that whether it's abuse in the family of origin or domestic violence and some of her early relationships, there's, there's abuse going on here.

So I'm going to go back to Breaking Bad and the rhetoric of evil. This is page 94. Ronald Nassau, he's referring to a book by a psychoanalyst. Her name is Sue Grant. Sue Grant wrote a really beautifully written book called The Reproduction of Evil. Her arguments are fairly complex, so I'm going to go to Nassau's summary of Grant. Here's what Nassau says about Grant's book. Quote, Sue Grant focuses special attention on the impact of early, horrific trauma, and the histories of individuals who have broken bad. Inspiring shame and dissociative efforts to preserve sanity, its legacy is a kind of psychic death, leaving some victims unable to connect emotionally with others except through the imposition of suffering. The need to reverse early

experiences of helplessness and victimization can unleash horrendous destructiveness. So I love that quote, by the way. Sue Grant develops that idea in more depth than Nassau, but I love that quote because this whole notion of psychic death is also related to the idea of an empty self. Psychic death implies the self is largely lost. The self is dead. And in order to bring that self back to life, you fill that hole or that void with abstractions or maybe ideology, whatever. You're going to fill it with something, I think, to try to fill alive. This is a really powerful idea that perhaps Lori Vallow, pre-Chad Daybell experiences some type of abuse. Certainly Chad alludes to that.

And psychic death, which then, and helplessness, which then leads to behaviors, acting out type of behaviors to inflict harm to feel more alive. It's hard to know what exactly, what these traumatic experiences are, what the exact abuse is. but we know that there's either descriptions or actual instances of abuse in her background. Again, I think this idea of a false self or a psychic death, I think these things are all related. So you have the type of psychic death, which leads to these feelings of helplessness, and then you probably get some type of attempt to remedy those feelings of helplessness through certain behaviors. and we'll get to that in a second. So this leads us to our next question about Lori,

and that is a question about personality disorders. Oftentimes in these types of situations, there's actually some fairly recent research showing that there's a possible correlation between childhood trauma and abuse and later borderline personality disorder. Let's put that thought aside. I'm going to read from a book

This is a classic book about the impact of narcissism on children. So the Pressman book is about a family, the family system of narcissism. This book is more specifically about adults that have been in narcissistic families. It's by Alon Galaam. Galam says, and I quote, the narcissistic parent lives on within the mind of the adult, even in the absence of the real parent. A final and tragic irony is that the child of a narcissist

may herself have acquired many narcissistic traits up to and including being a full-blooded narcissist. Some common features might include self-centeredness, the compulsive need to be right, and to have other people submit to her views, an inability to take criticism, the desire for perfection in self and or others. she is close to, hypersensitivity combined with the continuous feeling of being mistreated,

an exaggerated need for a claim in support, and an even more desperate need for reassurance that she is loved. The flip side of the narcissistic family, which is that if you have a self by proxy, it's not unreasonable that the person raised in a narcissistic family then can become a narcissist or at least show some features of narcissism and or other personality disorders. On that front, we have, for example, this is an evaluation performed by Vivian Lewis. It's actually an evaluation on Joe Ryan, but in her diagnostic formulation, she has, she does, render an opinion about the biological mother who is Lori. Based on the information she has, she says that there should be a rule out of histrionic and or borderline issues. So in other words,

she's not definitively saying that Lori would receive a diagnosis of histrionic or borderline personality disorder, but she's saying that she thinks it's relevant and it could be an issue. In one of our earlier podcasts, I speculated that she had some precepts, she had some psychopathic features. I may have jumped the gun a little bit on that. I think I was getting a little exuberant in the moment. I don't know for sure if Lori would be a psychopath. I do want to say that I think she has some features of psychopathy. I don't know if she would qualify for the diagnosis, but talk about one of the more recent models of psychopathy. I've talked a lot about Robert Hare and his views on Psychopathy and Harris Checklist and how that's sort of the gold standard.

But there's a more recent model of psychopathy called the triarchic model of psychopathy. And this was developed by Christopher Patrick in 2009. He wrote what is by now a very well known article in academic circles. It's called the triarchic conceptualization of psychopathy. And Patrick argues that there's, it's triarchic, that means three. So he argues that there's really three components of psychopathy. Those three main components are meanness, disinhibition, which would be impulsiveness and fearlessness,

or he calls it fearless dominance. Or sometimes boldness, fairness and boldness would be similar. We talked about in one of our previous podcasts, Lori's propensity towards fearless dominance. She does tend to be fairly bold and fearless in many things and many of her decisions. We've talked about her being important.

impulsive, but for our purposes today, I want to focus on the meanness one. So meanness, in the psychopathy literature, meanness is often also called callousness, or it sometimes referred to a CU, which is callousness, unemotionality, unemotional. Oh, interesting. And so this trait, by the way, this meanness trait, is oftentimes, according to the current research we know on psychopathy, the biggest predictor in children of later adult psychopathy. So children that have this callous, unemotional trait,

otherwise called meanness, are in much higher risk to become psychopaths as adults. So I think this is really a critical variable in thinking about psychopathy. I'm going to read, This is page 927. This is from the Patrick article, his original article on the triarchic model, which, by the way, has received a lot of research support over the last decade. Here's how he defines meanness.

The term mean describes a constellation of phenotypic attributes, including deficient empathy, disdain for and lack of close attachments with others, rebelliousness, excitement-seeking, exploitativeness, and empowerment through cruelty. So I want us to keep in mind this last part here. Empowerment through cruelty. That's going to be important component of our discussion coming up here. Okay. Empowerment through cruelty.

So two friends of Lurys are interviewed here with a similar story. Anything else that you could think of that's important, I guess, now knowing that we have all these criminal investigations going, that you overheard then, that like I said, you might have written it off, but you go, man now that all this is happening that's weird or bizarre or in June when we saw her after she'd been gone a couple of months when I see weed Christine and I got together with her she had said that and Christine would be able to recall I don't even take I've been propon so I have no understanding of medicine or anything about nature but there was some sort of I think it was a medicine of

some sort and I don't know if it was something Charles took or if it was something that maybe was another medication that JJ took. Okay. I know JJ took quite a bit of medicine. Yeah. It's different issues, but she had said that she had been putting whatever this was into, I think, a smoothie or some sort of drink for Charles when she was in Texas. Okay.

his last phone. What's going on? Okay. Yeah, you know what? Oh, dear, who, sorry about that. Who told me that? I can't remember if it was, I think it was Nicole. Maybe Melanie?

Yeah, no, Nicole said, hey, yeah, because she said, I was there. She said, Christina and I were there. So she said, and that was, she couldn't remember the medication, but she said that she told both of you guys. And that was when they were back in time. Texas, right? Yes. Okay.

When I went back on his like protein milk, like shake or something that he was taking. Okay. And so I said, Lori, are you serious? Did you actually do that? She's like, well, I could only get two. Like, I don't know, but it sounded like both he and JJ took. Good. That's perfect.

I was trying to, I blow off with you on that. I just happened upon your doorstep and it was random and out of the blue. So not a problem, but I appreciate you calling up with me. So according to two friends, Nicole and Christina, Lori would drug Charles Vallow's smoothies with Xanax. The reason we're starting with this particular example is because it's proof. This is definitive proof. I know in the second interview, she said that Lori sort of backtrack on that. but yeah christina said well she was like it's not a big deal just one or two right but so but let's let's

dig into this for a second like it is a big deal it is a big deal because lorry is introducing a controlled substance without consent and unknowingly into charles drinks that by any statute is a crime it's not only a crime it's a felony in most states it's punishable by up to five years in prison so why is this important because two people are saying that she's doing this. Lori doesn't see it as a big deal because Lori wants to control his behavior. Whatever her justification is, it doesn't matter. This is criminal behavior. She's introducing a controlled substance.

Let's call it poison because Charles doesn't know he's taking these drinks. She's essentially poisoning Charles. Here we have this idea of empowerment through cruelty. This is where we're beginning it, right? Because she feels empowered. She's controlling his behavior. She potentially has his life in her hands. She could easily create a situation where he overdoses.

She can easily create a situation where she essentially murders him, whether knowingly or not. And so I don't see any other way of saying that that's cruel. When you poison people, there's a sadistic component in the sense that you're really, you're negatively affecting someone's behavior and emotional state and mental state deliberately through a controlled substance. And so I think this is a great instance of this trait of meanness that we're going to start to explore here.

This is a never heard before story told by Larry Woodcock. when he was at our house two years ago this month, April, two years ago this month, we have not shared this until this moment. So let's take a listen to what Larry Woodcock has to say. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Discover your true age today. I'm going to give y'all a little bit insight that is absolutely not known to anybody. Two people know it. One of the last times we went to Hawaii, and the day we left, Laurie had fixed a fruit salad. I love fruit salads. I loved her fruit salad.

And she knew it because I told her. I said, you just absolutely make one of the best fruit salads I've ever had. And when Kay just said what she said, I was immediately drawn to this statement I'm fixing to make. When we left to Hawaii that morning or that evening, we boarded the plane. The plane took off and about halfway through the trip. I woke up and I told, okay, I'm dying. Now, I've had enough people die in front of me.

dying my arms, you know, around me that's died. I know in general the symptoms of that. And I truly believed in my heart that I was dying. I was going to die there on that plane. Well, Kay kept telling, you know, the stewardress and everybody, we got to do something. I said, no, just leave me alone. Just leave me alone. We made the trip into Vegas. as we were walking down the corridor to get our luggage and the people mover on the escalator I just got so sick and I honestly in my in my heart I thought I was going to die right there and then I started throwing up Kay had bought up I had a brand new Saints cap cap a ball cap that i had worn one time and it was in my bag and here we are on a people mover

and so larry said i'm gonna throw up and i said well he said give me something to throw up in and i just opened my bag and and he grabbed that hat out of it and he threw up in my new saint's hat and i filled it up and then when we got all the people moving then we just threw it away but i i'm wondering and i and i've and i've wondered this since it happened to us because you and I talked about it and I even asked Kay one time I said do you think she was trying to kill me and Kay naturally said no I don't mean for what reason but why would she want to kill me and I've always in my heart since that time since the day we were on that escalator and like and as I said Kay and I talked about this

I just wondered if maybe in hindsight, and my point in saying what I just said, my point is I tried to figure, what would she gain out of it by doing something with me, if that was her attempt, what would she gain out of it? But she and Kay were so close. one of the things that I've always tried to do is figure what angle would she use where would she go with that why me I mean as far as I knew she thought that I was you know her her bestie and and from everything Kay has told me that that Laurie has told her that you know she thought I was I was sitting Rose on Larry every day.

I mean, she just thought that much of it. I think, I mean, first of all, thanks for sharing that story. It is remarkable. And I'm probably never going to forget the Saints hat as long as I live. Did you get the hat replaced? Or did you throw it out? I did. You did.

Did you write? No, okay. I was going to say, yeah, I think that that hat wasn't salvageable. It was not salvage, but I loaded that hat down. And it was fruits. But I can tell you I've never been poisoned. And so I can't, I don't have any personal experience. But in looking at in retrospect of everything that is happening,

Maybe she, in her mind, maybe she did have come up with a reason too, but I can't imagine what it would be. So I think if I were to offer a professional perspective on that, I think you don't need reasons if that's true, if she was trying to kill you. In other words, she's not sitting down and saying, you know, she doesn't have a pro and con list when she's poisoning your food. She's just thinking, Larry looked at me funny this morning. I am so angry at him or I'm tired of him.

Or maybe she took something you said as a criticism or a slight. Like it doesn't have to be as, it can be as simple as that. Like there's no, I know it's, for normal, rational human beings, we want reasons. We want, we want to say she's killing me for money. But with somebody like Lori, there's no reasons. It could have been something that you just had no clue about. Well, look and thinking back through all of this, I think one of the things that I never put up with Laurie's bullshit.

That would be a reason. And now I respected her because she had JJ. and and but all this trying to convince our granddaughter that she needed to be part of this cult and wanted her to start reading books that Chad wrote oh she did so and and maybe maybe for some reason because I didn't go along with her her beliefs and I was I never hid that from her because I don't think I think she totally understood that her BS was not going to work with me and and I would call her out onto it but I think maybe that's part of it I don't know I I've tried it like you said those type of people don't need a reason up until just a minute a few minutes ago there's only two people that knew about this came myself. And I will, without a doubt, still in my heart, believe that there was something trying to be committed

because I've been sick. I know what it is to be sick. I know what it is to be afraid. And I can tell you, I was praying that I didn't want to die on an airplane. This is way before Chad Daybell this story. So here we have another instance of potential poisoning. Do we know for sure that that's what Lori was trying to do here? We don't because it was fruit.

And of course, we all know that fruit can go bad and it can create problems. But Larry seemed pretty convinced that this was way beyond fruit, that this had to do with poisoning. He would have had no reason, by the way, to go to the hospital or he couldn't go to the hospital. He was on a plane. Yeah, he was on an airplane. He had no, really no motivation to get blood work done to see if this was poisoning because

it didn't occur to him. Right, at that point he trusted Lori. But looking back, now that we know what he did to Charles, that she clearly poisoned his drinks, his smoothies, it seems to me like this is a pattern that we're starting to see. that this story, if this was a poisoning attempt, again, we can't prove it, but let's say that it was, this gets into that quality of meanness, this gets into that callous unemotional trait of empowerment through cruelty. I love that term because I think that really captures it. This is about Lori feeling empowered.

If we talk about... That would be a reason. In other words, that would be a reason. A motive, right. If we talk about this idea of psychic death or the empty self or a false self, then this is an attempt to transform that sense of victimization and helplessness through poisoning to feel more empowered. And that's what she's doing.

Well, so this is about Tiley. This is Nancy Grace. I'll put the link to this video in the description as well if anyone wants to go see this. So is Nancy Grace interviewing Lori's friend from Hawaii, April Raymond, and they're discussing Tiley. We had a lot of health issues and they could never really get to the bottom of them. What kind of health problems that the doctors couldn't figure out? Heidi was always sick and she would be.

in her room resting or sleeping or recovering or just getting back from the doctor. When she was younger, they told me she had had several surgeries to try to figure out what was wrong and to try to fix things and it never accomplished anything. Was Lori Valo primarily involved in Tiley's treatments? Yes. If a fleet of doctors in a metropolitan city can't figure out what's wrong and called Mom Lori Vallow was the primary person taking care of her, I'd be very, very curious to find the true nature of Tiley Ryan's ailments.

And if they were somehow inflicted on her. And would Lori Vallow be there alone with her at the time? she began manifesting the pain and when the pain would go away and what if any attention would Lori Valor receive when Tiley would be ill. This is the first time hearing of this and I'm very, very distressed. Well, we're hearing this from between April and Nancy Grace. We have heard from several people about Tiley always being sick and in the hospital. We've seen photos of her in the hospital. Most of you that follow this case know this is a very repeated story. story. Exactly. And there's diagnoses, there are multiple diagnoses of pancreatitis, which it seems in these

diagnoses to have no clear cause. So the question here becomes, and this is from, by the way, this is from a guardian ad litem report to the court, July 15th, 2009. I'm just going to quote this in the same period of time. Tiley was age six. She was diagnosed with pancreatitis, having had two episodes requiring hospitalization between February of 2006 and 2008. So there's clear documentation of pancreatitis and many other elements, back pains that are unexplicable that have no clear cause. This raises the question of whether this is some version of factitious disorder imposed on another, otherwise previously known as Moochhausen's biproxy syndrome.

I think that's the issue that April and Nancy Grace are raising here too, right? They're questioning whether Lori is poisoning or introducing a substance into Tileys drinks or food, and is that responsible for all her physical ailments. My short answer to that is we don't know for sure, but again, we're looking at here we go. where Larry Woodcock almost dies from what he believes is poisoning. We know for sure that she's introducing controlled substances into Charles drinks. We have inexplicable reasons for Tiley's illnesses. You have all of these elements are coming together.

And let me add one more, a testimony of JJ's last babysitter in Rexburg, who she said that Lori told her that she could get. give J.J. Benadryl to help him sleep. Yeah. And let me, this is from, this is from an affidavit written by filed in the courts by Cheryl Willer. I'm just going to quote, we're just going to do, I'm just going to do a quick quote on this. There's a couple things in this affidavit I want to point out. One is a quote from one of her sons. I'm not going to mention the name of her son. because Cheryl has gone to great lengths to try to protect the identity and privacy of her kids. But here's a quote.

From one of Cheryl's kids, he was, I believe, around 12 years old at the time. He says, quote, Lori gave us all kinds of those green Advil slash NyQuil and Lunesta pills so we could go to bed early. They practically shoved it down our throat. Also in that affidavit, she talks about that there is a diagnosis in one of the health reports of one of the valo children. I'm not going to mention name again here, but there's an actual diagnosis in a chart pertaining to this particular situation that Cheryl says,

the quoting states that the application indicates most. child's syndrome by proxy. So a doctor that they dealt with to deal with a lot of medical problems back then that was treating one of the children. Again, I'm not going to say who the child is,

but one of the children... And this was a skin rash, by the way. A skin rash. Yeah, skin rash. One of the children in the household was having some problems and the child gets diagnosed

because the causes are so vague and so Nebula gets diagnosed with Moons by proxy syndrome. Now we call it factitious disorder imposed on another. But so there is actual evidence in a medical chart, I believe today as we speak of a diagnosis pertaining to Lori of Moons by proxy syndrome. So can I say something about this? really quickly too because I reached out to Cheryl.

Yep. Many people have seen this affidavit. It's floated around the web. It refers to Lori Ann Charles, concerns Cheryl had. So I reached out to her for clarification. And she stated this and I just want to say this too. Because I asked her, is like, is this Lori Ann Charles?

Help me out here. like what, you know, she said, I believe this was only Laurel, Lori. This is from Cheryl Wheeler to us and she said that I could share this. I believe it was only Laura. Laurie, Charles just didn't think like this. During our marriage, I was the primary caretaker. I am not complaining about that. But Charles would have naturally defaulted to Lori's style of mothering and then add that,

and then she, some personal stuff that I won't share. And then she said that, I know that you understand the affidavit was during a custody battle. This custody battle would not have even been brought up if it were not for Lori's involvement in my children's life. So the custody battle was only happening because Lori entered her children's life, according to Cheryl Wheeler. So I want to share that too. Go ahead, John. Right. All of these, again, so the main point is,

that all of these physical ailments and health problems started when Lori enters the picture. Right. Charles. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. May have been involved in some of that indirectly, but it's not, but the cause is Lori, that Lori is the driver and the impetus for all these physical elements. Prior to Lori, there were no issues with the kids at all with Charles. Right. So I think that's important to know. Right.

That's the important point. I'm going to read a quote here. This is from a book on Moonschausen. This is, by the way, a really fascinating book on Moochausen. There's not a lot of great books written about Moonchausen syndrome by proxy. But this is called Hurting for Love. Moon Chauzen's by proxy syndrome. It's by Shreier and Lebo.

It was also, I believe, written in the 90s. Let me give you the exact date. here, 1993. Here's what they say about Moon Chances by proxy syndrome. This is page 95. They, meaning mothers, often mothers.

They seize the opportunity afforded by the birth of a child to actively relate to and control physicians by amplifying a minor ailment in their children and reducing an illness in their infants. And so doing, they try to maintain an intent, distant, perverse, and ambivalent relationship with a powerfully loved and powerfully feared paternal representative.

As we will demonstrate, the physician comes to represent a second chance at a long-for relationship with the father, but the fear of yet another abandonment is equally, if not, more powerful. What these case studies suggest is that the good Moonschausen's Biproxy Syndrome mother is a masquerade of mothering that springs from childhood roots that were quietly traumatic include a profound absence of recognition of the child who will become a moon childens by proxy syndrome mother. Many of these young girls, and so she's referring to before their mothers.

Okay. Many of these young girls feel neglected and desperate for approval and recognition. So their argument, the author's argument, is that Moonschausen's is a function of, interestingly enough, the desire for paternal love. No doubt, Lori had a lot of conflict with her father. And so it's interesting that there is that element, or at least in the case studies that they evaluate, they believe there's that element. and the main payoff is attention and recognition, but specifically the attention and recognition of the father. So I think you have, and also previous neglect, trauma, childhood trauma.

So I think you have, potentially you have a lot of those elements in this particular case. The thing that I really started thinking about after reading that book, by the way, is this idea of triangulation. We talked about this with Murdoch, how I've talked about the family therapist Murray Bowen, who says that the basic unit in a family is a triangle. So when there's problems between two members and a family, often a third member will be brought in to diffuse the conflict to take the heat down. And with Tiley, I think Tiley plays that role to a very large extent in this family that Tiley's always brought. in to diffuse conflicts between other people.

The Tiley becomes this pawn of sorts. And I mean, it's sad, it's sad. But I think there's this attempt by Lori to triangulate Tiley, who she's very conflicted about, by the way. Lori detest Joe Ryan. And unfortunately, Tiley is the daughter of Joe Ryan. So I think in some ways, Tiley suffers by association with Joe Ryan. I think Lori has this constant approach avoidance relationship with Tiley in the sense that she wants to be close to her,

but then she gets angry at her because she associates her with Joe Ryan. So I think that if there is Moon Chowson's in this particular case or factious disorder, it has something to do with that dynamic. that she feels a great deal of love and dependency towards Tiley, but she also wants to punish her because of her association with Joe Ryan. So I think the poisoning is an attempt to keep Tiley close because she's sick all the time and Tiley needs her. There's a dependency, but it's also an attempt to inflict harm on Tiley because she represents

bad association to Joe Ryan. So it's sort of this, I love her. you, but I'm going to punish you type relationship. And it's also, I think, applicable to her hospital stays. That I think there's this interesting dynamic that this book points out that the physician gets triangulated. You know, I'd be really curious to know if there's a consistent physician who's treating highly that Lori is interested in or attracted to, right?

That would make this even more fascinating because now Lori is showing up with a physician who she can't really have a relationship with, she's married. But yet there's this fantasy of paternal love, that she gets to go to this physician, and it's sort of risk-free in the sense that she's around this physician all the time. I presume it would be a male in that case. She gets to be seen as this really good mother because she's always bringing her daughter in for attention.

And yet, at the same time, she's inflicting suffering and pain on her daughter by poisoning her. And nobody can figure out what's going on, really. I mean, pancreatitis might be a valid diagnosis, but that's questionable. Or even, I mean, not just attention from a doctor, though, attention from her family. Tiley's sick again. Tiley's in the hospital. Everyone knows.

Lori's there, being a good mother. Charles is on his own, you know, taking care of JG. Erring, you know, before or after Charles. You know, this everybody knows where she is. People are coming to visit Tiley and Lori. She's getting that attention, that recognition. Right. Yeah.

And so the main motivations, I think, for Munchausen's would be attention and recognition and the poisoning component of that would be empowerment. The Lori has the secret sense of empowerment that she's in control, that she is punishing Tiley. and I'm not saying that's conscious, by the way. I think the way she's punishing Tiley here is she knows she's potentially. And again, I don't know for sure if this is true, but she knows potentially that she's harming her

and punishing her through medication or poison, whatever she's giving her, but she also knows that she's going to get a positive payoff from that, as you said, from attention. But she's in control of the situation. This is her drama. She's in control from start to finish. And that's an important piece of this, too, I think.

Right. Letter to the courts from Mary Vogel. This is from February 28, 2008. And so people understand Mary Vogel was the ad litem. She took the place of Tom Ware. So Tom Ware, the ad litem of Tileys was released from the case, and Mary Vogel came in. Here's what Mary says, February 28th. 2008, she's talking about the relationship, the custody battle for Tiley.

She says this is a pattern that has continued to spiral Tiley's life into a dramatic and destructive situation that I do think is harmful and have outlined in previous letters and reports to the court. If these events and situations persist, I believe that it becomes more and more possible to overlook something truly dangerous. or exaggerate something that is manipulative in nature. It is a dangerous pattern. So the Mary Fogel, the guardian mad light in to Tiley, is essentially telling the courts that she thinks that Lori Vallow at the time, that Lori Vallow is more than capable of creating harm to another human being. They don't know and you don't know.

You know what I've been through. and you may even give a crap when they've been through. Nobody does. Except for me. I'm the one that knows. I'm the one that was in the hospital with Tiley for hundreds of days watching her suffer. Tiley is free now from all the pains of her life.

I sat there while she cried and I held back her hair while she threw up. And I am the only person on this earth who knows how much Tiley suffered in her life. She had pain every single day. She never felt good. Here stood Anders and is trying to get her daughter to first school.

It goes not so good. Anders lear stort. Moronroutin. Little enclare when you thrives on job. Good. Good thing for school, contor and industry. It is happiness at work from AI products.

Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you, from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information

shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection. dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.