Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Did Lori Vallow Kill before meeting Chad? Was Joe Ryan murdered?

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Exploring this week's sweeping motions by Chad Daybell's attorney, along with explosive news delivered to Hidden True Crime. While Lori Vallow Daybell has been convicted of murdering her two children, BOMBSHELL NEWS make Hidden hosts John and Lauren Matthias question: WILL THIS INFO CHANGE THE CHAD DAYBELL'S DEFENSE? A forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. While Lauren attended Lori's trial and sentencing in 2023, the hosts continue interviewing and investigating what's Hidden, just as they have been for four years. You can get caught up by listening to our full 'Beyond the Veil" season. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias is an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime. Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Lori Valladabelle trial. And why don't we just play that right now? Because we have Dr. John Matthias here with us tonight. Yes, for those new to the station, or the station, I used to work at a station for those new to the channel. For those new to the channel, he is my husband, but he is also a clinical and forensic psychologist. And brilliant, I might add. So we're going to have him talk to us about what this means for this case that is unending.

Lori has had one trial, but there is another one in Arizona as well as Chad's trial next year in Idaho. So let's listen really quickly to that bombshell and we'll go from there. I've verified this person and how they are connected to Audrey, who I can say they spoke to. I'm going to read it because there are many things this confidential source told me, and I'm only allowed to say this part. So I'm going to read it to make sure I have it right. So a confidential source, again, that I have vetted, this confidential source spoke directly to Audrey. and this source tells me that Audrey told them that Lori told her told Audrey, Lori told Audrey, that Lori said to Audrey that Lori watched Joe Ryan take his last breath

and that Lori enjoyed it. Lori implied someone else was there when Joe took his last breath and that Lori was grateful Joe's body was not found for days. That's all I can share right now. For those new to this case, Joe Ryan is Lori Ballo, Dabell's third husband. Joe is the father to Tiley Ryan, victim Tiley Ryan,

16-year-old Tiley Ryan, who will never, never see her 17th birthday because of what was done to her. Joe lost his life in 2018, while his body was quite decomposed by the time he was found in his apartment. they did deem it natural causes from a heart attack. John, any thoughts right now or should I keep going?

You know, it was, to me, it's a bombshell for a lot of reasons, but we'll discuss that in more depth. Did you want to clarify that, so this is tied into Audrey speaking at the trial and mentioning that Lori had said something to her about witnessing someone else, dying. I was there at the trial when Audrey stated something that would make me think that this is quite accurate. That what I mean, not that this is accurate, but that the source is accurate, that this makes sense. It fits together. It's a puzzle piece. Did she ever say, I killed my kids and I'm going to kill you two? Abjection beyond the scope. Overrule. No, I knew nothing.

about her children. Right. But she'll say, I killed Charles and I'll kill you too. She didn't talk about Charles. Nothing like that, right? She brought up being at the scene, watching someone take their last breaths. Yeah, so it's a brief moment, but now that moment seems like it could be really important. She mentioned being at the scene when someone took their last breath.

And now, according to our source, that was the last breath of Joe Ryan, which places potentially, and again, we should point out that Lori Daybell is not, maybe not exactly the best, the most honest or accurate reporter of history. So there is that issue here. Yeah, Lori Valo declares that she has seen Jesus Christ in a vision, that she was married to Moroni, that she saw angels. She claims in her sentencing speech that she had a near-death experience,

no one's heard of, and that JJ and Tiley were not murdered. So you're right. We have to take that into consideration. In addition to the fact that Judge Boyce pointed out, Judge Boyce mentioned publicly one of her diagnoses was delusional disorder, and she seems to be highly suggestible and fantasy prone,

and I could go on and not about mental health. issues, but all of that would lead someone, you know, potentially to question her credibility and to question her accuracy and honesty. But on the other hand, Lori is quite literal, and she seems more than capable of recounting a scene or having the ability to recollect something as traumatic as that, as Joe Ryan's last breath. So people have been speculating about Joe Ryan for four years since his case broke because he did die in 2018 and Lori did not like him.

A recording has come out that was recorded at a religious meeting at a home a few months after his death. And Lori stated then that she had thought about wanting to murder him. She said she chose the temple instead, but it was enough that, that, you know, Phoenix Police reopened the case. Let let's share one other person just to say that, you know, it's time to talk about this. So she didn't tell you this, but she told. She didn't say it to me, but she told April Raymond and Angeline Hall that. And do you know when she, about when she, about when she,

She made those statements? No, Angeline and I talked when all this started happening. Neither of them live on Kauai anymore, so I don't see them anymore. But Angeline reached out to me when everything happened, and she's actually given, like, she's one of these, uh, anyway, she talked to radar online or something. I don't know. Oh, okay. But she said to me that Lori had said that she paid Alex to kill Joe. Okay.

And so later when April and I were talking, I said, Angeline said this, can you believe it? And April said she said the same thing to me. Lori would kind of say crazy things sometimes. Anything in particular? I mean, no. Nothing like that. Nothing like that.

I mean, she never said anything like that to me. But I'm just saying that's why someone could hear something like that and kind of be like, whatever, Lori. Okay. Do you know what kind of relationship that she had with Joe? I mean, I know a lot of the back history. I really don't know that much. I mean, when she moved here, Tiley was still living with Joe,

and then Tiley came over, I think a few months later and then stayed. I know she hated Joe and she didn't like Joe and she was happy when he died. She was happy Tiley was getting Social Security for it. Anne, her friend from Hawaii, Anne is the one that picked Lori up when she left Charles and JJ for 50 days. She picked her up at the quiet airport. But Anne states, let's make it clear that Lori didn't say this to Anne.

Anne heard that Lori said this to two other friends of Lurys, and she's reporting that. But she also gives us a motive there, too. Lori really, really, really hates Joe Ryan. And there was Social Security money that was received from Joe's death and that also came up in court. So, right, that lays a motive. Right. That Joe left money to Tiley.

And when Tiley was murdered, that money was then, that Lori then started taking that money. She was receiving that money. It's part of her grand theft charges. So here you have multiple sources essentially saying the same thing, that Lori was present when Joe Ryan died. And potentially that Alex Cox was in the room as well. So why is this important? I mean, does it matter?

Let's ask that. So let's assume. Let's go with the assumption that Lori is giving us a version of the truth there and that she's in the room and that she had played a role either directly or as a co-conspirator in Joe Ryan's death. Why does it matter? Well, one reason it matters is because John Pryor filed a motion stating that, and this was on November 9th, essentially trying to get the state to limit their arguments. to quote their core theory of the case,

which they provided, according to Pryor, in Lori's trial. So it matters in the sense that if this is true or remotely true or it's something the defense could use or Pryor can use, then I could see the defense making the argument that Lori's murderous spree begins before Chad Daybell and that Lori continues, that spree, or she continued those murders with Chad Daybell. So it was really just an extension of Lori's personality and behaviors that she had exhibited prior to meeting Chad Daybell. So she meets Chad Daybell in October, late October of 2018. Joe Ryan dies or his body is found in

April, early April, I think it's April 2nd, 2018. Although his body, isn't found for a few weeks. So presumably, if there was a murder here, it would have occurred in March of 2018. She gives the murder's heart speech roughly in, when was it? It was in 2018, right? July, August. It was October. October 2018 was the speech that she gave at Melanie Gibbs home. And she was, I want to point this out about Lori, too. It actually gives, I think, Audrey some credibility that Lori has just met these people. She's just met Melanie Gibb. She was at Melanie Gibbs home. Thor was there and a few others. And Melanie Gibb was actually introducing Lori to friends when she states, I, you know, I did not have a murderous heart, but I was either

going to, I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but she was either going to murder her ex-husband Joe Ryan, like Nephi, like the scriptures, to keep him from coming after her and her children. or she was going to go to the temple. To put it in perspective, she hardly knew these people, and she's stating this, which would imply that Lori does share odd things with people. She didn't necessarily say that she did it. She said, I wanted to, but I chose to go to the temple instead.

But, I mean, to even confess that in front of new friends is very odd. So let's assume that this is accurate. It gives the defense, I think, some ammunition to argue that Lori really instigated the murders that lawyer. Well, let me use Pryor's motion. So this is a little over a week ago. This is from November 9th, Pryor, who's Chad Daybill's attorney, filed a motion to limit the state to consistent arguments.

So here's what, let me just read some of this. So this is from page two, quote, during the trial. Ms. Vallow, the state argued repeatedly and consistently that the alleged conspiracy was set in motion by Lori Vallow and, quote, was driven by Lori's desire for and use of money, power, and sex. Let me read a little more, the same page two, next paragraph. The core of the state's case was that Lori set a conspiracy in motion that she manipulated Chad and Alex to partake in that conspiracy and that she was in charge throughout her plan. So they're arguing that Lori is largely responsible and that the state has an obligation to stick to that core theory that they've supposedly developed in Lori's trial. We'll get to that issue of whether that's really what the state did. But this disclosure, I think, really has the potential to amplify that argument.

That, you know, there's another part of this. what you just read. And I'm not sure, by the way, so I'm not sure how much of this would hold up in court. A lot of this is speculative and hearsay and secondhand. And so I'm not sure any of this would hold up in court. Well, with that, I want to point out, Lolo's asking, did Judge Boyce rule that Joe's death could be brought up at her trial?

It wasn't mentioned at all. I think there might be a reason that Audrey did not say Joe's name, right? Right. Right. Because it's true. Joe, there is no open investigation into Joe's death. Joe's death has actually twice been ruled natural causes. I can't imagine that they would be allowed to bring it up. Anyway, go ahead. Sorry, John. Yeah, you'd have to, in order to open up a criminal case with Joe Ryan, I think you'd have to get a lot more evidence. And it would require a lot of investigation and without a body to exhume, it becomes a lot more difficult. So, but. Assuming that, you know, I mean, and even if you could place Alex in the room, you have a problem there too, because Alex is deceased as well. So if you could somehow, if you could place somebody who was living in that room and witnessed Joe's final breaths to quote Lori or to court our source, then I think you'd have a better chance to open a criminal case. But, you know, I think it would be really difficult at this point to probably get that entered in it.

any way. But just from our standpoint, just from thinking about this case for years and sort of knowing the details of this case, it raises, it brings up this question again. One of the questions you and I get all the time is essentially was Lori a black widow who began this process of murdering with Joe Ryan and then just continued it with Chad. And did Chad go along for the ride, which is consistent with what Pryor is trying to do here in his motion. Yeah, and this is... Go ahead. No, go ahead. The other reason this motion is really important

is because Pryor is giving us a glimpse of his defense, of Chad's defense. So we've always speculated for, since we started talking about this case, that the easiest defense strategy for Chad would be to throw Lori under the bus or vice versa. We now know that Lori obviously didn't do that with Chad, but it seems highly probable

especially since the children, since Chad's children gave that interview to 2020 a couple of years ago where Emma essentially said that Chad was framed. That's the term she used, that Emma said that Chad was framed by Lori and or Alex or both. And so we've kind of, we've been anticipating this type of defense for a while. and now Pryor is really kind of putting it out there and showing us publicly that this is likely going to be the defense. That Lori, I don't know if he's going to go so far as to say that Lori framed Chad.

That's what the children said in their interview, but certainly that Lori, as he says in this motion, that Lori drove the conspiracy. And that's the term he uses. So very interesting. And that's a comment that you and I have been getting for nearly four years too. Oh, Chad's lucky to be alive. Chad was next.

Right. Lori is a black widow. Lori was the instigator because look at Joe Ryan. Even though we can never know, you know, there's certainly evidence and speculation there. there is another piece to that statement that I think is really interesting from a psychological standpoint and that is the piece about the source saying that Lori told Audrey that she enjoyed it and why is that a critical piece because it points so we began talking about this towards the end of the trial when there were texts that the prosecution revealed in evidence.

There were texts saying essentially that Lori, she didn't use the term enjoyed, but that Lori wanted the children to suffer and she wanted the children to experience pain. Her own kids, when her kids were being murdered, she said in text messages to Chad that she wanted them to experience pain. And so here you see this theme come up again, where she's saying that when Joe was dying for whatever reasons, that she enjoyed it. And so you have, here's this, here's this submotive of sadism or kind of, there's this sadistic component here that is indicative of possibly deeper psychopathology.

And so, you know, when I, when I, when I, when I, I hear this type of sadistic component in terms of when I'm interviewing a criminal, for example, I'm starting to think about the possibility of antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy or something a little more sinister than narcissism or something a little more problematic in terms of the crimes that have been committed and lack of empathy and other elements of the crime. So I think that component I think is particularly interesting because it might point in the direction of something deeper like a psychopathic personality. And again, I'm not diagnosing here, but I'm just trying to draw some conclusions or inferences from that particular statement if it's accurate and from those texts. I want to find those the texts.

I want to find that right now. That actually comes from my live Twitter, pull those up and read them because I do want to point out it was actually Chad saying that he was going to increase the pain. Lori was okay with it, but it was actually Chad. And I want to make that clear because that's also important to this. Okay.

And there was like a smiley face. Yeah. So it's probably a little more problematic, but just by agreeing, considering these are her. children, just by agreeing to it, it's obviously an issue. So, but here, she's actually saying she enjoyed it. She enjoyed watching Joe die if, in fact, she was there and participated in his death.

So there is this sadistic quality. And that type of sadistic quality, for example, so it might point in the direction of something deeper, something darker, like you might see in a psychopath that there might be, something, we've talked about this, there might be something like what's called the dark triad or the dark tetrad. So the dark triad is, it goes beyond psychopathy. It goes, the dark triad is a constellation of three variables that have been found that kind of go beyond psychopathy and that they're common in criminals or they're especially common in mass murderers. And those in, involve three elements, which are narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism, which Machiavellianism

essentially that you do whatever it takes to reach your goal, that the means justify the end. And so it doesn't matter how unethical or malicious, the means are those means justify the ends, no matter what, and that's Machiavellianism. And then there's something called the dark tetrad, which is those three elements plus sadism. So when you add sadism in, you get something even more, you know, more malicious and darker. And I can go even further. And there's been research showing that if you add paranoia as the fifth variable, and then you add a psiochic, the sixth variable, then you add a psychotic, the sixth variable,

then you're getting in the terrain of tyrants like Hitler or Stalin or Saddam Hussein that these people with all of these elements, they have no empathy, they often engage, they can engage in genocide or mass murder. And so I think the more you see these variables in some ways, the more concerning and the more problematic it becomes.

And I think, you know, I'm not saying this is true of Lori, but you're, because nobody that assessed her for the trial would have mentioned any of these qualities. But it certainly, so there were no diagnoses to this effect. But when you see someone, assuming this is accurate, when you see someone say they enjoyed watching someone die, you know, it really raises a lot of red flags and concerns. If I'm assessing someone, if I'm assessing a criminal and they say that they enjoyed committing a criminal

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So let's follow this idea. So this is the idea, basically, that Pryor is developing. that Lori set this conspiracy in motion, that she drove this plot, and that she should be held accountable and not Chad. So Pryor calls it the common thread. He prior also filed a couple of motions to take the death penalty off the table.

I'm going to... For Chad, yeah. Right, for Chad. I'm going, I don't want to get into too many details in that, but he continues with a similar argument, by the way, that his argument, one of his arguments is that since Lori didn't have the death penalty and she was the common thread or the driver or the instigator of this conspiracy, that's their term he uses, then why would Chad be punished so severely

when in fact he wasn't the one driving this plot? And so he resorts to similar arguments in his motion. I'm going to read a little bit. I'm going to read some parts of this and I want to talk about it. So these were also filed on November 9th. The particular motion I'm reading from here is 11 pages. It is called the motion to strike the death penalty based on relative culpability. On page two, so one thing prior does in this motion,

is he actually uses quotes from the trial to prove his points. And he, I'm going to read some of these quotes, and I want to talk about them because they're really important. So on page two, one of his first facts is that, quote, Lori Vala was the common thread between the murders and set the alleged conspiracy in motion. and then he backs up that claim, that assertion with different quotes that came out of the trial that the prosecution made. So I'm going to read a few of those.

We're not going to have time to read all of them, but I'm going to read one of them. This is B, this is a quote that, and again, this is said by the prosecution quote, and the prosecution said at some point during the trial, quote, and there's one common thread through these murders, Lori Valo. she is the one person who ties these all together. That's number B. C, I mean letter B, letter C, quote, she's moving this plan forward, meaning Lori.

There's no question that Tiley Ryan, J.J. Valo, and Tammy Daibel were murdered. Who is the common thread? Lori Valo. So he's quoting from transcripts of the trial, and he's obviously pointing the finger at Lori. and he's arguing that for the fact that the prosecution itself implicated Lori as the common threat. Now, but let's look a little deeper.

So this is an important question. Is Lori Valo Daibel the common threat? Right. I mean, you know, obviously, I can't think of a more important question for Chad's trial. And certainly it's critical. it's critical in terms of the prosecution's case. So let's look a little more closely at the B. They said, and again, the prosecution said this,

that Lori is, quote, the one person who ties these all together, the one person. So there's an obvious, so when I read this, I thought, there's an obvious problem here with what Pryor's trying to do. And that is he's missing the point. He's missing the biggest point here, which is the common threat is not a person. The common threat is an idea. The common threat is an ideology.

And so when Pryor says she is, quote, she is the one person who ties these all together, maybe so, but she's not the one idea that ties it all together. As far as C, he says, the prosecution says, who is the common thread? Valo. Again, the question isn't who, the question is what. The common threat is not a person. It's an idea. It's an ideology. And that's where he gets it wrong. The ideology is Chads. And the ideology comes, it's based upon the system of light and dark. It's based upon the idea of zombies. It's not a person. And so prior, you know, I, in a way, I, I admire as a, attempt here. But like so many arguments, he's pulling bits and pieces of the prosecution's

testimony and arguments during the trial and using the ones that fit his argument. So this idea that lower is a common thread false because an idea is the common thread and it's the idea of the New Jerusalem and this religious ideology that's driving all the murder. The one thing, that all these murders have in common, with the exception of Joe Ryan, if that's true, is that every single person that was murdered was labeled a zombie, which fits into Chad's belief system, the belief system that Chad developed and that Lori bought into and that drove this case. So Lori's not driving the conspiracy. Maybe she's driving a conspiracy, but she's not driving the conspiracy in the sense that the idea was not hers.

And it wasn't developed, the ideology here was not developed by her. Thank you. And you know who else agrees with you? I don't know if she would say she agrees with you, but according to Audrey's testimony, she agrees with you. Because while she in Audrey's testimony at court dropped a bombshell herself by claiming that Lori threatened her and told her she was going to pretty much chop her up and put her in a plastic bag and that she watched someone take.

And now we know the person that Lori said she watched Joe take her last breath and that she enjoyed it. Audrey also answers questions and refers to Chad. Would now be a good time to play some of her testimony that I wanted to or is that later? I want to dispute some of this motion first because this motion is really critical and it's going to be argued in a few weeks. Keep going. Keep going. You'll tell me. My goal is not, I'm not trying to help one side or the other here. I'm just trying to analyze this

information. So I should point that out to. I mean, some people have said, well, you're, you know, you're really helping the prosecution. I mean, okay, if I am, it's because that's, that's where the evidence leads me. So, and this is a really interesting argument, prior's making. And it's, you know, potentially, if you think of Lori as this sadistic psychopath who begins their murders with Joe Ryan, then you really, you're going to have to really explain why that's not accurate. So especially given the fact that, you know, that that idea really plays into prior. That's what's not accurate. Because I do think she's a psychopath. Wait, so you said if you No, that Lori starts this whole process and then continues it through with Chad.

In other words, the Chad is just a bit player. Right. Or that Chad's next. That's what a lot of people think. Or Chad's next. Yeah. That's next on the Black Widows list or something. Okay, right.

So the second in the motion to strike the death penalty, the second argument, the second assertion that Pryor makes is that Lori value manipulated Alex Cox and Chad Dable. to follow her. And again, this is a quote from the actual trial transcripts. Quote, Lori manipulated Alex to religion. She manipulated Chad through emotional and sexual control. So that's interesting because, number one, Alex isn't really relevant to, I mean, necessarily relevant to Pryor's defense. So that's not really critical in terms of what he's trying to do here. but manipulating Chad through emotional and sexual control, it kind of misses the point in the sense that the area where she did not manipulate

Chad was through the system of light and dark, right? So this goes back to the idea that this whole thing is driven by an ideology. And that, so it's interesting, he's arguing this is, you know, he's trying to show here that Chad was just a follower. But clearly, like saying that Chad was manipulated through emotional and sexual control has nothing to do with Chad's ideology. And again, this kind of undercuts the whole idea that Lori was running the show, that she set this conspiracy in motion because, okay, yes, did she manipulate him through emotional and sexual control? Yeah, to some degree. But she did not manipulate his ideas and his system of thought.

And that's the most critical point. that was point A, D from the same, from number two, the assertion number two that Lori manipulated Chad, quote, Chad's telling Lori what she wants to hear. She reinforces him with sexual behavior. Again, this doesn't prove the point that Lori was in control. It only proves the point that, yes, she manipulated him with sexual behavior. But again, she doesn't, what she doesn't manipulate, Chad's system of thought, Chad's ideology.

And that's really what's running this. That's what's driving this whole plot. Yes. In the third assertion that prior thinks proves this, this claim that Lori was in charge throughout is he says, quote, number three, Lori Valo led the alleged conspiracy throughout. One of his proofs here, which is D, is, I'll read it, I'll quote it.

he says, quote, Lori Valo is telling Alex Cox what to do. In these messages, you never see Alex tell her what to do. She's telling him what to do. Most of this point about Lori Valo leading the alleged conspiracy has to do with Alex.

That he can't find any evidence here that she somehow led Chad. But I don't, so it's interesting because he's trying to make the argument, Chad followed her, and he's using an Alex Cox to make the point. Did Alex Cox fall, which doesn't do it because clearly Alex following Lori is very different than Chad following Lori. Right, very different.

So the idea that Alex follows Lori has nothing to do. He uses another quote here from the trial. He takes it out of context. He says, quote, that so this is, Melanie Gibbs says, okay, captain. Why does she say, okay, captain? Because Lori's in charge. And then what does Chad say? Chad says, quote, you'll probably remember this quote. Chad says, quote, just grab me by the storm. And I will follow you to the ends of the universe. So Pryor says, not you will follow me, Lori, but I will follow you. I mean, again, this is, this is, this is not getting to the heart of the matter.

This is about the, I agree that, that Lori can manipulate Chad with sexual control or experiences. But that, that's quite different than Chad following her ideas and following her lead in the, and going to the New Jerusalem and the system of light and dark, right? So anyway, so I think there's, Pryor's making an interest in argument. but it doesn't really fit the evidence. And the prosecution, and the prosecution's favor, they haven't had a chance to make that argument because Lori did not develop the ideas that drove these murders

or that she did not develop the ideology that drove these murders. And to speak to the point about Joe Ryan, the motives were quite different. So the motives for the murders with Chad Debaugh were that she saw Chad as a god or a deity and she wanted to follow him. believe she would be the goddess that went within the new Jerusalem. With Joe Ryan, it was quite different.

If, in fact, Lori had something to do with his murder, the motive there would have been to, as she said in the murderous heart testimony in front of a group of people, it would have been to eliminate her pain, that she suffered a lot because of Joe Ryan, because he contested custody, because she believed that Joe Ryan had molested her children. and she simply wanted to, and the money component. And the money. She wanted to eliminate Joe for those reasons, which were very different. I mean, there's some overlap that in some, you know, was money involved in the Debo case?

Yes, it was. Yes. Custody, no. But so the motives were quite different. If she's murdering Joe Ryan, you have to see. that, or I would see that as a very separate motive in a very separate situation. I think that you could argue that this idea of the murderous heart might be the same in the sense that she still...

She has a murderous heart. She has a murderous heart. Right. She's, she apparently... That's where we are. Yeah. She apparently has no empathy and remorse and has no problem murdering people consistently, but the motives change.

So if she's murdering, if she... If she supposedly murders Joe Ryan and then she murders Charles. So an example of this would be Charles Vallow, who is the first person murdered in this string of events in the Daibald case. Charles is identified as a zombie. Charles is referred to as somebody called Ned Snyder. And Ned Snyder is not Charles. And so Charles has to be murdered to eliminate this dark entity known as Ned Snyder who is a zombie. So the motive is quite different.

At no time was Joe Ryan labeled a dark spirit or a zombie because Chad Debo wasn't around at that time. Correct. Joe Ryan was simply a hindrance to the life that Lori wanted. And he had some money and he had created a lot of pain and he tried to obstruct custody and she didn't like that. So she was an obstacle. It's a very different motive. Charles was never an obstacle. He was an obstacle.

and once she met Chad, he was an obstacle to her relationship with Chad, but the motive was completely different. And so in that sense, you could argue, I think, somebody could argue that the murderous heart theme continues, that this is someone clearly who seems to have a somewhat sadistic component and she doesn't show a lot of remorse or empathy, and those elements would all play into continuing to an, act the same behaviors later, but they're very different in terms of, the motives are very different

in terms of how they play out. Well said. So in other words, if Joe Ryan was murdered by Lori, it speaks to her character and how she has a murderous heart and how she might be capable of doing the things and even show some sadistic qualities if indeed she said she enjoyed watching him take his last breath. If she said that, right, if she said that, that's really damning. That's really, that's a really. About who she is.

Right. It's a, yes, it's a reflection of a really sadistic quality that if any human doing enjoys, enjoys, and that's the term apparently she used, watching another person die, then that's atypical. Right. But it still doesn't speak to the belief system. and the reasons for the string of murders, including her own children in 2019. Right, exactly. So the motives change.

So once you go from Joe Ryan to Charles Vallow, the MO changes, the motives change, everything changes, except for the fact, arguably, that Lori still has this lack of empathy. She has a sadistic component. She has all these components. that so, so typically a normal human being might say,

no, I'm not going to, I'm not going to let you murder my husband. I'm just going to divorce him. Why do we need to go through this whole charade of murdering him when I can just divorce him and we can be together that way? Right. That would be a normal, rational response

to a relationship that's going to end or it's failing or whatever is going on with Charles, right? And so, and so somebody like, Lori, if in fact she did participate in Joe's murder or death, would be more likely to go along with a murderous plot. And so if when Chad sells her on the fact that Charles is a zombie, then she, you know, she's more likely to buy into it. She's already been there. Yeah. And I want to point something out about the, the Black Widow narrative that isn't,

it's not hitting home for me, the fact that like, oh, Chad was next. Her, she's, she's now been married five times. Her first two husbands are still alive. Right. She has really only actually, people talk about how she hated all of her husbands. Actually, despite some controversial things in the relationships and being very quick relationships and rumors about them being abusive and all this stuff, there was really only one husband that she continually ex-husband, that she continually talked about disliking or hating or loathing. And that's Joe Ryan. Yeah.

And so if that was part of his demise, you know, then she kills Charles or Alex kills Charles while in this belief system with Chad. And Chad is now still alive. So I actually also want to argue this idea that Lori is a black widow. I don't quite see. I don't think that's a psychological term. So I can't really tell you if she is or isn't. We can't go find a black widow. in a book on psychology and decide if she is or isn't.

But as far as my personal definition of it, I don't see that pattern with her quite yet. I think it's more of a true crime term and maybe a Hollywood term. So you see that. Well, there you go. That's what I'm talking about. This is my specialty. So, you know, with all the soap operas I've watched.

No, I don't know. I actually could really watch a lot of soap operas. But, you know, we'll say, in my opinion, And I just, I'm just not seeing that black widow pattern in her. So thus, I don't see that Chad's life was in danger ever. And you could, and let's, let's dig a little deeper into these motions and into this idea that Lori could have been the main culprit or instigator. You know, some people have questioned me and said, well, Chad wasn't really violent. You know, Chad, why would Chad, how could Chad be the instigator if he has no history of violence?

And Lori does. I mean, actually, Lori really doesn't up until this situation, at least not a formal criminal history. So there's some speculation about some behaviors that she engaged in when she was younger that would certainly push up against the idea of criminality, but she has no formal charges. So I think it's an interesting argument in the sense that Chad appears fairly docile and passive. He doesn't seem like someone who could drive a plot like this, drive this, you know, multiple murders and all that kind of stuff. So what's going on there? So the first thing I think people need to look at is that Chad's books are filled with violence.

Chad's books are, Chad's books are essential, right, Chad's books are just horrifically violent, and people are dying left and right. And if you read Chad's books, any of his books, it just, it's, the way he describes murder and violence is just kind of matter-of-factly. Like there's really, there's no empathy. around any of the violence in his books. And when people die, it's just sort of like the process of life, right? And so...

Maybe not. Similar to visions of glory. People are dying right and left. And Chad's books, people are dying right and left. Which many of them were written before visions of glory. I want to point out, Chad's books. And so you could just argue that, okay, that's all fiction and that's fantasy, except for the fact that Chad later says they're not fiction. and if you want to look, I think if you want to get a better sense of what's on Chad's mind or kind of his mental state or his psyche, it's certainly, so I'm trying to, so these books would be a reflection of that. The amount of violence in these books, I think, would be indicative of kind of the way Chad Debel perceives the world. So I don't think it's that much of a stretch.

Now you might say, well, okay, Stephen King's the same way. Stephen King's books are filled with violence. And, you know, why isn't Stephen King a mass murderer? And the answer is because Stephen King never at any point says that his books are nonfiction later. And number two, Stephen King's books are clearly, his themes and his characters are clearly very different from Stephen King himself and from the way Stephen King lives his life, whereas Chad's books are all a version of LDS theology. In Rexburg, Idaho, or in Springville.

That's where they take place, too. So Chad sees his books. I say this in some of our initial podcasts when we first started thinking about this case, but Chad and Melanie Gibb supports this view that many of the people that follow Chad, they saw his books as scripture. And so that's a massive difference. If you take someone like Stephen King or any writer that engages in fantasy fiction, Game of Thrones, right, whatever, that there's clearer distinctions between the fiction

that they're writing and their characters and their plots and their lives. At no point is Stephen King going to argue that because he had a near-death experience, the God was giving him information that he downloaded into his books. The carry, or whatever Stephen King book you want to take, misery or carry or whatever your favorite Stephen King book is, it didn't come from, you didn't download it from God. He didn't download it from Beyond the Vale.

Right. And you, by the way, both Chad Daybell and Tim Ballard download things. Right. These download divisions. I'm wondering where they're getting that. But. So at no point did Steve. King, you know, hook up his USB cord to the heavens and write his books accordingly.

But that's what Chad thinks he's doing. So in other words, in other words, if Stephen King decides it comes forward and on Twitter or YouTube life, by the way, my books are real, let's be concerned. We're good. Yeah, although I think from Chad's books, you can kind of articulate. articulate a broad kind of ideology, whereas in Stephen King, I think you'd be really hard-pressed to come up with a larger kind of theological vision of the world or the universe or the cosmos. Yeah, it's true. I mean, I've read Chad's books too. I mean, his characters are named Emma and

Leah and Heather and Brad. Those are all in his immediate family, you know. His first, his first, The first book is called it an errand for Emma, and Emma is his daughter. So you won't see Stephen King naming books after his family members. I think they're able, people like Stephen King, authors like Stephen King, are much better able to make those distinctions and to differentiate between what's fantasy and what's real in their lives. And, I mean, that's not to say that great authors don't use their life experience in their work, they do.

Can we also just point out that Stephen King is a good writer? I mean, if we're doing a comparison. Right. I mean, one of my favorite books is Stephen King's on writing, which is a book about writing. Yeah, that's a brilliant book. Johnson says they actually relate to humanity's way of thinking, plus they make you reflect on a message or lesson that's being told. Yeah, agree.

even the Simpsons, who I think Chad stole a lot of his zombie names from, as a moral and a way of making you think. Chad Davis. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical card, no hassle.

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But anyway, yeah, let's not, I think we made that point. There's, there's, let's, I want to go back to, so let's go back to Pryor's motion and in particular, I'm interested in this motion of how the prosecution, because Lori drives this whole conspiracy, the prosecution can't deviate from that. They have to stick with this core theory of the case. There's a few other arguments, by the way, why that is, I believe, a bit absurd.

And one of them has to do with Tammy Debo. So Tammy Debo obviously complicates this entire argument. Yes. that I could actually say because of Tammy and Chad's, you know, more prominent involvement in the murder, potential murder, he hasn't been tried yet, but potential murder with Tammy Daybell, the Chad is actually more of a common thread than Lori.

Lori wasn't in the country. I'm sorry, she was in the country, she was in Hawaii when Tammy was allegedly murdered. Yes, with Audrey, hanging out with Audrey and Melanie Boudreau. Yeah, right. So Lori was convicted for the murder of Tammy Daybell, but as a co-conspirator, co-conspirator, not, she wasn't convicted of murder one. And Chad has been charged with murder in the first degree for Tammy, which actually,

so this idea that Lori's the common thread becomes really problematic if you look at Tammy's murder. Yes. That Tammy is not a common thread for Tammy's murder would not be a common thread for Lori, but Tammy's murder would

be a common thread for Chad. So that's another argument that undermines this motion, that at no point does prior try to make distinctions between the different murderers and the level of involvement of the different players, right? He just kind of, he

He gives us sort of this blanket statement that Lori's driving the bus or that Lori's in charge. And therefore, that's what the prosecution argued and they need to stick to it. But at no point is he trying to differentiate the players and the murders. And in particular, the fact that above and beyond any of these murders, the alleged murder of Tammy Daybell, has Chad's involvement all over it. And so I think that becomes a real problem for this motion or for this argument that the prosecution needs to stick to their core theory because Tammy complicates that.

There's another issue too, I think that's important and that really kind of disputes this idea that this core theory that Pryor is trying to argue for. and that is that both Chad and Lori, and I think this is important in understanding this case in general, but that Chad and Lori are so closely intertwined that I think in many ways you can't,

I do think that ideology drives this, but when you put that aside, clearly there's no question that Lori influences Chad. There's no question in my mind that, that Lori, as prior points out, that Lori has some emotional and sexual, there's some emotional and sexual manipulation of Chad. I think that's true.

And so to say that Lori is really in charge of this, it really negates the fact that these two are both heavily involved, that they're both closely intertwined. And it's really hard in many levels. Once you get past Chad's ideology, It is at that point very difficult to separate them. And that's why they're co-conspirators. And that's why the state wanted to try them together.

And I think it would have been much more compelling that in many ways, this is this motion is absurd in the sense that the state wanted them to be tried together because then they would have presented the case in the way they wanted. And they write, and that they would have presented a different court theory in terms of Chad's ideology and Laurie's involvement and how they reciprocal influence, let's call it that, that there's, they're both influencing each other, they're both driving this murderous plot, and there's a reciprocal influence of each on the other. Some people have written me and suggested there's maybe some type

of folioidoo, or diagnosis of folioidoo, which I don't think is that far off, by the way. But that speaks to the fact that Pryor is trying to kind of distort this situation by saying that clearly the prosecution needs to stick to this theme that Lori drove the bus. And of course, that's going to be good for Chad. But that's not what the evidence suggests. No, it doesn't. I've never heard you say that about Folly Adieu. Yeah, it's complicated. It's something I keep going back and forth on. But yeah, I mean, I think there's an element of it for sure. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, here, here to everything you said. Keep going. I can say you're flipping pages. Keep going. I'm here. I'm here for this. No, no. Keep going.

This is prior's motion. You can see I've redlined a lot of it. So, no, I just have some notes about. So I think that's, those are pretty much my, that's my response to this motion. to this idea that Pryor's trying to develop that that Lori's in charge here and Lori's driving the bus. And we should, you know, Chad, clearly we should believe prior when, or the defense, when they argue that Chad was just a little, you know, a poor little victim that was dragged along by Lori

and didn't really want to be involved and have nothing to do with it, which, by the way, that, you know, one problem with this motion is, in some ways, it's, it's implicating Chad, right, in the sense that if you say that Lori was in charge, you're still saying that Chad was, Chad was involved. So I think, right, that there's a, there's an implicit idea here that that Chad knew and he was involved and that even if Laurie's in charge, right, that he's culpable. So I think in order to exonerate Chad or in order to get an acquittal, he would have to go so far as to say that Chad knew nothing, that Lori took the reins all by herself, that she planned

and executed all these murders with Alex. And that was sort of, by the way, what the children were implying in their interview with 2020. But the Davell's Chad and Tammy Daybell's children. Yes, that they were, they were sort of implying that that Chad was framed, that Chad didn't know anything about this, that Chad had nothing to do with it. And I don't think that's, so I don't think that's what Pryor is arguing here in this motion. He's simply arguing that Lori was in charge, but Chad seemingly, I mean, he doesn't say this.

I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens, but he's implying that Chad kind of knew some of this, or Chad went along with it and he was manipulated, but that doesn't mean he didn't know. And so in a way, in an implicit way here, in a covert way, there's almost an admission of guilt here, I think, maybe. I'm not sure that's what prior intended, but unless he's willing to go so far as to say

that Chad was completely blind and ignorant to what was going on and that Laurie did everything. And I don't know. Clearly, anybody who saw the first trial and attended the first trial, I didn't attend, but I followed it closely through you. Thank you.

And our discussions would know that Chad has his print all over this, you know, this whole situation, this whole scenario. To say the least. Yeah. I actually have, I did find some of those tweets during, that I took during trial that that just show how I'm in together, Chad and Lori are and were, were and are that I can read in a little bit. But I also want to say, you're not the only one who thought that it read like a confession,

that Pryor's motion read a little bit like a confession or an admission of guilt. That's interesting. We had a listener say the same thing. Yeah, I mean, it's subtle, but, you know, he's not saying Chad didn't know anything. He's not using that type of language. Maybe I think he knows that would be over the top. But he's not using the language that Chad's trodren used, which was that he was framed, that he knew nothing about what was going on, that Lori did everything.

So he's not going that far. But I think he would have to go that far. to argue that, that, to argue for an acquittal. Well, let me, let me just share with you, because I want you to keep going. Let me just share with you what I want to share tonight. And then you tell me when is a good time to share. I do have some of those tweets. You brought up the pain, the pain tweets.

And I, I wanted to go find them because here's the thing with those, those have never been shared in any FOIA documents we've received. These, that was a bombshell at trial. Yeah. that these tweets came, these texts between Chad and Lori talking about increasing the pain in children was a bombshell at trial. They're not in any documents that we have. And all we have is the audio and then the tweets.

I was live tweeting. So I do want to share those because if there's, I just want to point out like it's something John and I talk about a lot. it was a really hard day in court that day to hear to hear and see we had a screen we could see the text on the screen and then they were relaying and reading what the text said and I was tweeting them and if there's any question about Chad's role in this just read those tweets just read those tweets but I also think it's important to explore Audrey's testimony a little bit as well because this bombshell that we received this week is, has to do with Audrey. Audrey Barretero. Go ahead.

Let me just finish your thought. So I just mentioned that if Lori says she enjoyed watching Joe die essentially and how that shows a sadistic component, Chad's saying that this idea of wanting to inflict pain upon the kids goes back to something that Chad said in his autobiography about killing bees. So I know that might be a little bit of a stretch, but it's an interesting moment in his, Chad's autobiography, where Chad talks about an incident when he was in middle school

where he essentially started stomping on bees and he killed, I forget the exact number of it, he killed a lot of bees. And that's not the important point. The important point is not only did he kill the bees, but he says in the book that he liked it. It's this component about, he said he enjoyed it, right? And so here you have, like Lori potentially, here you have this

sadistic component to Chad. And I think you see that in some of his books where you have genocides in his books and you have this mass violence that doesn't even seem to phase him at all. Well, you have the first book he wrote. Let's not forget the first book he wrote. It was not an errand for Emma, as you stated. It was the murder of, what was it? He wrote it in third grade. In third grade was his first book. He was very proud of it.

Yeah. And it was a, it was about a murder. It was a murder. Yeah. In the third grade library, he was very proud, so proud that he wrote about it in his autobiography years later. That's how important this was to him. The murder of, yeah, I can't think either.

That was his first book. Right. A murder for, yeah, I don't remember. Doctor or something, I should. Yeah, we actually have a picture. Cover. Yeah, the cover. The cover of that book is on one of our podcast covers.

Yeah. So in other words, Chad, in other words, Lori isn't the only one with a murderous heart. Maybe we should say that, that we can tell. Whatever you want to follow. with. Let's read some of these tweets. This was live tweeting and trial this spring sitting in Boise and in, I want it here. This is, this is important.

If you want to know who Chad Debel and Lori Valois are, here you go. Here you go. It actually begins with the storm comment. Chad to Lori, I've instructed to focus my efforts on Hillary. And so I will. Hillary is Tiley. Lori to Chad. okay find out her percentage for me and jj and by the way this is to find out how close to death

they are chad to lori she is at a 0.13 i turned up the pain they're referring now to tiley to hillary i turned up the pain to attend and placed a spiritual virus on her this is about lorry's daughter He is at a 99.99.99. Raphael visited him. Raphael is Chad and told him to follow Amy into the light. I also assured him that James would love and take care of his mommy. So now we're talking about JJ. So okay.

So Hillary is Tiley. They placed a spiritual virus honor. And now JJ, by the way, he's at a 99.1. Rafael visited him and told him. to follow Amy into the light and assured him that James would love and take care of his mommy. James is also Chad, which he will with all of his heart and soul. And Lori's response to us is, Lori to Chad, this is sweet. I miss you desperately.

Heart, Hart is the witness on the stand explaining these texts. The closer someone was to zero, the closer they were to death. Chad indicates that Tiley is at 0.13 and JJ's death percentage is 99.9. Hart then explains that Raphael and James are two names that Chad references for himself. Then it continues. Chad says, You are so adorable, beautiful, heavenly, luscious, angelic. So many divine attributes rolled into one dynamic, desirable package.

I want you more desperately than you want me. Chad to Lori, just grab me by the storm, Chad says, and I will follow you to the ends of the earth, end quote. That's the actual quote, the prior used in his statement or in his motion. And Lori to Chad says, and then what? And Lori to Chad says, back to crying and saying goodbye, back to the box. Chad to Lori.

This trip to Utah has a lot of finality to it. I was told extreme changes are coming for me and to Utah and I welcome them both. Lori to Chad. What is Blake's percentage? Blake is Melanie Boo. rose child little child and lorry to chat explaining why she's asking blake drew three crosses on the wall on his bedroom and we just finished painting over them like he was marking it for the dark sight to find him chad to lorry says blake is at a seven i took my sort of light and i sliced his aura

chad to lorry i also decreased blake's pain tolerance to one and then i greatly increasingly increased his pain. His desire to depart is at 80%. It continues. Oh, they're talking about Rhonda. Rhonda's Kay Woodcock. They'll work hard on Rhonda when they're together. I will get her numbers.

Lori says, oh, good, let's work on that hard. And then they agree to go to the temple. It continues. It continues. And then we have the love story. there was more of that, but they continued to increase the pain tolerance. And if anybody wants to read more of that,

head to May 8th on our Twitter thread, hidden true crime, Twitter.com slash hidden true crime. Yeah, that was the first component when they were talking about Tiley and JJ and Chad inflicting pain and Lori responding with, This is Sweet, is unbelievable.

Yes. Bringing up Raphael, we also did not talk about the trust level, but it's actually, it's interesting. Let me just pull this up. I discussed this earlier this week. So Chad Deba, let's point that out. Chad created this system of who Lori should trust. I'll share that really quickly.

So this is Chandler. the police department, Chad sent Lori a message on July 30th, 2019, that read that Tammy is out of three and JJ is added two, and both are being heavily shielded to stop intruders, meaning zombies into their body. Then Chad sent Lori a similar message providing trust levels to those that she needed to be aware of. Now, Melanie Gibb is at 97, Zulem is at 96. This is Chad saying to Lori, this is who you need to trust. Al or Alex is a 94. Thor is is at 94, Nicole's 86, Melby's 85, and it continues. And it jumps down to summer.

Lori's own sister, who's 40, which I find interesting because it feels like he is trying to isolate her and get her to not trust her family because Lori's parents are both almost at zero. But what's the most? Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Interesting is that bottom line right there on the left. Audrey and Raphael, who we know is Chad, are both 100. They are the people that Lori is supposed to trust the most over Melanie Gibb, over everyone.

And I thought it was interesting today, John, when you said that's really important. And you told me why it was so important, I agreed. Yeah. I mean, I think that's important for a few reasons. Number one is it would explain why Lori would disclose to Audrey, right? It's something so potentially incriminating. Why would Lori tell Audrey that? And it's because Chad deemed that she was 100% trustworthy,

more so than their closest confidence, Melanie Gibb. That's one thing. The other thing that's interesting about Chad giving Audrey 100% trust rating is it shows, once again, that Chad is the one determining who's trustworthy. Chad's running the show. If Chad is telling people who's trustworthy, then he's the one making that determination. He's in charge.

He's leading that. It's not Lori telling us who to trust. It's Chad. Yes. Just like Chad is in control of the, apparently in control of the pain meter. He's in control of the light and dark scale. He's in control of designating people as zombies. Again, this is Chad.

This is Chad's show. It is Chad's show. It is. I want to play a bit of Audrey's testimony. I think it's really important to listen to it. Many people have not heard it. Many people, or if they did hear it, they heard it the day of the trial and haven't heard it since. And if we want to know who's the mastermind here, you know, clearly,

clearly Audrey throws Lori under the bus during the testimony. Lori threatened her. Lori threatened to chop her up into pieces and brought up trash bags and told her she enjoyed watching someone take their last breath. But there's some other things that I think are really interesting in Audrey's testimony. And I want to play them now. There are over 4,000 people here with us tonight. And thank you for your likes and for sharing this video and for subscribing. It helps our work immensely. And you can also go join us at patreon.com slash hidden true crime as well. Thank you to everyone. Audrey Baratero's testimony,

This is from our channel. Audrey, we learn why Audrey was even friends with Lori. It's because Chad told Audrey to be Lori's friend. We learn that Chad told Audrey that he, that Tammy was going to die and he was going to marry Lori. We learn that Chad is the one who could understand, if someone was light or someone was dark. So here we go.

At some point, did you have contact with him about his books? Yes. About two months after I had seen him at that time in St. George in 2018, he reached out to me on Facebook to open up communication. And at that time, I asked him some questions I had about his books. Okay. So who initiated the contact? He did.

And that was on Facebook. Facebook, okay. How would you communicate with him after that? On the phone. Did you continue to communicate on Facebook or was it just on the phone? Just on the phone. Okay. And what kinds of things would you talk about with Chad?

Religious things. And you were continuing to talk with Lori. Yes, about a month and a half of her. So after he. started a conversation and then he asked me to be friends with her. Okay. Once you started talking with Lori, I think you said February 2019. Yes. What would you talk about with her? About like religious things or spiritual experiences. Okay. Do you recall talking to Lori about her move to Rexburg? Yes. And do you know where Chad was living at the time? He was living in Rexberg.

Do you recall talking to Lori in late August or September 2019 about her daughter, Tiley? Yes, there was a few times in the fall that I asked her how her daughter was doing. When I stayed at her house in November 2018, I met her daughter for a few minutes. And so in the fall of 2019, I asked everyone's small, like, how is Tiley doing because she was at college? And towards the end of the friendship, when I asked her, how is she doing at BYU? She said that she doesn't talk to me very much these days. So I think you mentioned you had met Tiley initially at that Arizona conference. Yes.

Okay. Did you ever meet JJ? Yes, for about five minutes. Yeah. Did you ever have the opportunity to meet Tammy Daydell? Yes, I did once. And how did that occur? I happened to just be going to Idaho and Tammy and Garth.

and Chad wanted to go to dinner. And Garth was married to at the time that you met her. She was married to Chad. Did Chad ever say anything to you about Tammy? Yes. During the course of the friendship, he said that he had had a near-death experience years before and that he had been told by a deceased relative that Tammy would pass away before she turned 50.

Do you recall when he told you this? I would say around the end of January 2019 or in February 2019. Okay. And at some point, did he indicate to you that he felt he would get married again? Yes, he did. Did he tell you who he would marry? He didn't tell me for a while, but then eventually he said Lori. Okay.

And did he discuss this with you prior to Tammy's death? Yes. what were your observations regarding that? What do you mean? What did you say to him? What did you? I asked him if he had talked to Tammy and or his children about it, and he indicated that he had talked to Tammy for sure,

and I don't remember about the children. Okay. Now, you mentioned when you talked on the phone with Chandler, you talked about religious stuff. spiritual stuff. Did they talk about other spiritual or religious teachings with you? Besides what we've already kind of covered. Yes. Did they talk to you about prior lives or probations that Lori and he had? Yes. What do you remember about that? He said that he had been Methuselah and he said that he had been an apostle at the time of Jesus Christ, James.

Okay. And do you recall if Lori and Chad indicated a belief that they had been married in previous lives. Yes. Do you know what names they claim to have in that prior life? I don't remember about the time when he said he was Methuselah. I remember that she was somehow around according to them at that time. But I remember that he said, he indicated that they'd been married at that time when he said that he was an apostle.

And he said he was who? James. And do you recall who he said? Lori was. His wife and he said her name was Ellen. Elena or Elena. Elena. Okay. At some point did you move away from Utah. Yes, I did. Where did you move to? I moved to Missouri. Did Lori come and visit you in Missouri? She did. She and her niece, Melanie Boudreau, said they didn't have anything else to do and ask if they could come and see the church historical sites in Missouri.

They had never seen them. Okay. Do you remember when that was? October 2019. Do you remember if it was the first part of October or later? The first part? Okay. And you mentioned that Melanie, her niece, was with her.

Is that right? Yes. Okay. Was anyone else with her? No. Did you ever see Tiley with her in Missouri? I did not. You mentioned that the reason for their visit was to see some of the church sites.

Yes, they said that they had some free time and wanted to go see the church sites. They'd never seen them before. Did you visit with them at that time? I did. Where did you guys visit? We went to a place called Adam and Daemon and to the temple and they went to Liberty Jail. Okay. At some point, did you also go back to their hotel room?

I did. Did you stay there with them? I did stay there one night, yes. Okay. Now, I want to talk to you a little bit more about this experience that you had in the conference in the summer in the hotel room. That was, I think, the first time you'd heard about this idea of zombies and people being possessed. Is that right? Yes.

And do you remember when you first heard Lori, you used? the term zombie? I don't, but it would have been in the summertime. Okay. And do you know what it meant when she was explaining this if someone was a zombie? Yes. The idea was what the person was possessed and that there was a spirit in them that needed to be taken out. Did you ever discuss with lawyer, Chad, whether someone was light or dark? Yes. What should that mean? Chad

Chad had this idea that I guess like he would say if someone was light or dark depending on if they were predominantly a good person or if he predominantly thought that they were a negative person.

Did you discuss with Lori people that she believed were dark or were zombies? Yes. And who were those people? She said her husband Charles was, and then later at the end of the friendship, she said that her children were. Anyone else? And Tammy. Okay. Yes.

And so her children, can you just give me their names again? Tiley and J.J. So these included Charles, Tiley, J.J. and Tammy. Is that right? Was there anyone else that she talked about being dark? Yes, Melanie Boudreau, one or two of her children. Okay. Now I'm going to go back to when you visited with her and Lori at the hotel room in Missouri.

What happened there? They invited me to stay in their hotel room instead of driving back to my house, which was a distance away. And it was going great. And then basically she brought up the idea of working on Tammy. And again, when you say working on, what did you guys do? She said that Tammy had a spirit that was in her and needed to be taken out. And I told her I did not want to help and that I did not want to participate. and she's okay if you need to get some water she highly pressured me saying you're supposed to be

my friend you're supposed to help me like Chad asked you to be my friend and I reiterated that I didn't want to and she kept on and this was later in the night and I didn't know I didn't do those things in my own life and I said that I would say a prayer and basically I said it prayer, family father saying, okay, I don't know what's going on. If there is something going on with Tammy and it needs to be taken out, I ask for thee to help her, for any angels to help her. And I ask that she would be able to feel the love of God and end up the prayer. And were you holding hands with Lori and Melanie during this circle now? Okay. Do you remember what other people were doing besides you during this circle. They were standing or sitting. Okay. Did Lori say anything about what needed to happen

to this spirit that was in Tammy? That it needed to be out. Okay. At that time, I'd never heard it before. It was again at the end of the friendship because I dissolve the friendship. But basically at that time, Chad brought up an idea that, according to him, him that if the spirit was in someone's body that they were somehow being held prisoner and like an idea of a cage or something like jail okay i mean did you i just want to point out even that last one it was it was chad's right belief system right isn't it clear yeah it it reinforces the discussion we had earlier that lorry clearly went along with it but this is an ideology, this is not a person.

And so I think if Pryor's through line is Delory is the person that's the common thread, then Pryor is not apparently paying attention to what's going on. Yes. Yes. Some interesting things that Audrey stated. I just want to repeat once again, Chad is the one that told Audrey that Tammy, that Tammy was going to die.

She even said, does Tammy know this? He said, yeah, that he was going to marry somebody else. Chad is the one that explained past lives and told Audrey who she was in a past life. Chad is the one that told Lori to trust Audrey. And Chad is the one that told Audrey to be friends with Lori. Chad is quite the puppet master here. Yeah, and I mean, that's always been our position that the proof of that is that if you remove this ideology, then none of this occurs. That you have a real strong sense of dehumanization going on.

The Chad's system of light and dark and his designation of zombies creates this tremendous dehumanization of the victims. and that in many ways allows these actions to occur. I just have a thought on, you know, I've noticed some of the chat and people, you know, talking about how literal some of this is. I think it's interesting to think about the correlation between, say, ideology and violence. And I think that sometimes what happens is, and this is a big topic. So I'm just going to scratch the surface here.

But I think sometimes what happens is that when you, when you, somebody like Chad and Lori and this group, when you eliminate all other perceptions or interpretations of the world, I think you really, you create a situation where in some ways the only way out of that is through violence. You know, and I think part of the issue here is that Chad created a system of thought or an idea. They kind of backed him in a corner. And I think he had to prove himself to Lori. And I think that in some ways, he may have felt like the only way through that was through violence. And I think that's true of a lot of ideology that when your interpretation gets challenged

or when you see the world is only having maybe one interpretation. So if you think of human beings as reading the world every day, like a book, that we all read the world, and we all have different, we might have different interpretations and somehow we kind of can reach a common ground on our interpretations. But if you get to the point where you see one perception or one interpretation of the world, I think that's a problem in the sense that you shut down discussion, you shut down other points of view, you shut down other interpretations. and sometimes the only way out of that is through violence. And violence in particular will prove your point. It'll prove your view of the world. And so I'm oversimplifying a really big topic, but I just wanted to throw that out there.

A friend of Audrey, Janelle, is sharing that she had a good heart. What Lori said about her serving is how her heart is, and I'm so sad that she saw her get entangled with this. I'll share something that John Pryor told me a trial. We spoke briefly. Pryor was there every day. John Pryor was definitely wanting to know all about Lori's trial. He let me know that...

For good reason, by the way. If he can look at some of the evidence in advance, he has a bit of an edge. Yeah. So John Pryor told us we've been really hard on Chad. Yeah. Well, he told you that I was particularly hard on Chad. Yes. And I just want to say this.

We source our work. We try to be reasonable people, although we sometimes share our, how appalled we are and angry we are. My comment would be show me some evidence that points in another direction. I'm just trying to look at the evidence and make sense of it. I guess that's exactly what he's going to do at trial. So I guess I'll wait and see what evidence they have that shows that Lori was in charge of everything and Chad was framed or whatever he's going to argue. I can't imagine he would go that far, but my response is show me the evidence. I'll be happy to change my perspective once I see sufficient evidence to point in a different direction.

or to challenge my perspective at this point. I'm completely open to doing that, but I have to see something that disputes it. Yes. Show us the evidence. Well said. Well said. And, you know, John Pryor is working hard.

He is filing motions right and left. And he has made it known that he is going to fight for his client in that he is going to present a defense. So I am looking forward. to seeing what he brings forward. And I will be open to it too. I think that's the one thing here at Hidden True Cran that we do is we remain open. We allow others to influence us.

We'll go where the facts and evidence lead us. Many think you've been charitable towards Chad. And I actually want to say I agree with that too. I think you show your empathy and understanding towards most human beings on this, on this planet. So thank you. Well, my job is to maintain as much objectivity as I can, even with some of the worst criminals you can imagine. So I always want to give them the benefit of the doubt

and try to write reports or conduct forensic evaluations that look at both sides. So the more evidence I can look at, the better prepared I am to provide an opinion or to weigh in on a case. And my goal is to, as best I can, to represent all perspectives as fairly as I'm. I can. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for your support. Thank you for those who choose to join with a YouTube membership or Patreon account after this. And as always, two things you can do that are just completely free and mean so much are to subscribe to our channel, to like or give this video a thumbs up if you appreciated it, and to share our channel with your friends. Thank you so much.

And have a good night. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at Patreon. patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Now have Jonas fastened in a billcue again. Ay, aye, aye. But Jonas just flinaer out the elandet. Moron traffic. Little enclare when you trives on job. Good. Good. Good. Good news, school and contor. It is happiness at work from AI products. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records

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