Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL EXCLUSIVE: Heather Daybell, Chad Daybell's "Dark" Sister-in-Law, Breaks Her Silence (PART ONE)

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Welcome to our dinner table. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  Subscribe to our YouTube, @Hidden True Crime, for additional insider interviews and an in depth psychological podcast covering the Chad Daybell case. This is the first episode of a three-part tell-all interview you will not want to miss. In our opinion--the most detailed interview to date. Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell's "dark" sister-in-law. She sat down with Lauren and John Matthias at their dinner table for 5 hours, and shared her experience.  Watch Part One of Heather Daybell's Interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoiFM... Chad Daybell is behind bars along with his wife Lori Vallow Daybell. They are the subjects of the Netflix Documentary "Sins of Our Mother" that our host Dr. John Matthias was featured. We've also been featured on Dateline's covering of this case. Chad and Lori are charged with murdering their spouses, and Lori's two children--Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow. They await trial in 2023. Each night this weekend at 6 pm pacific we will premiere an episode of Heather's interview. Episode 1- Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at 6 pm pacific (7 MST, 8 Central, 9 Eastern).  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ INTERESTED IN ADVERTISING?: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. We are here with a very special guest at our dinner table right now. Someone that I think we've been wanting to probably interview since 2020, 2019, understanding that it would be whenever you felt ready,

and perhaps you wouldn't ever be ready. We are with the Heather Daybell. Here are a few things that I can share about Heather. You're a dark sister-in-law. I am, proud. Very dark. Sunburnt right now. As far as a light or dark scale goes,

your brother-in-law, Chad Dave Al-made up very clear to Melanie Gibb, to Lori Valo, and I'm sure to several others we don't know, that you are dark to not be listened to. You are married to Chad's brother Matt, and you were their neighbors when this has... happened. And you grew up with the Daybell family in Springville, Utah. You are the first day bell to be coming forward. I think the public knows Heather with those few facts and that you

were someone who tried to warn people. And many have read a note or a letter you wrote as a stake relief society president, which is a leader over the LDS Church of the women in multiple congregations that was leaked to the media. Those are the few things I think that the public might recall when it comes to Heather Daybell. But what I think we're going to find out throughout the next few hours is that we're going to learn a lot more about who Heather Daybell is. We're grateful to be here at our dinner table. So thank you. I appreciate that. I do want to I've made it clear on social media that I haven't wanted to interview. We've been approached by Dateline 2020, all of them.

We've chosen not to participate in those interviews. I was advised by an attorney to wait until after the trial to say anything, because, mostly because I was being subpoenaed by marketing and I think them just trying to drum up information that really wasn't there. So that's, I was advised by my attorney. But when I watched the Netflix documentary, sins of our mother, I just had it, I was just, I didn't like It's Julie Roe who's speaking about Chad. Representing the daybell side. The daybell side.

And unfortunately I did too. Well, that was completely okay. That was okay. But I, as I watched that by myself, my husband Matt has not watched that yet. We are pretty particular in what we do watch and how much we let in. because it is very overwhelming and it's been a really devastating three years for lots of reasons. Having watched that, and the trial is in January, it kind of felt for me to say anything after the trial felt kind of irrelevant at that point. It's done. So I will be, I'll be very careful

in what I say. They are innocent until proven guilty. So we're making the assumption. there's a presumption of innocence still. So we're speculating, right? You're not speculating about your actual experiences, but we're speculating about guilt or innocence and the outcome of the case. Right. Right.

And I will say I am not here representing the Dave L family. I am here representing myself, the experiences that I've had with all of this. Matt is my husband. I know how he feels about things. I won't speak for him. on most things, but I do know how he feels. He is supportive of me being here.

He just has chosen not to, life's been very overwhelming and he just doesn't feel the need for himself to do an interview. I don't know that he ever will. So anyway, so I got to, I've talked with Lauren. Over the last couple years, I love the podcast. I thought that was incredibly interesting. That's right. The first time we talked was in 2020.

As you're trying to figure out how something like this happens and origins of things. And Matt and I would listen to those podcasts and he would say, well, that sounds right about my family, but that's not right. And I said, then why don't you tell them? I'm sure they would love to know your point of view on some things. So we did have a conversation with you on the phone. Yes. Matt and I. And we talked, he clarified some things.

things. So he felt better about what was being said. And I think that says something that says a lot about you to for Matt to even be willing to listen to your podcast and then want to clarify. He's, you're doing really good work. And he recognized that. And I did too. So that's why I'm here with you too. I trust if I was going to do an interview, this is the one I was going to do. Well, I think it's time for you to share your truth, too. I can't imagine you've been through so much, and I think we're going to, again, learn a lot about that. I can't imagine having to just listen to everyone else share these stories, like you mentioned, Julie Roe and so many others when you've had to remain quiet. You have not been able to share your

truth. And so I hope that this time at our dinner table, too, will also not just be an interview, but will also be something that perhaps can help you move forward and you know, we're your friends. This has been devastating. It's affected relationships in our family, so I want to be careful with that. So having said that, I think probably the best place to start would be around 2014. I was, and I will go back a little bit. Chad and I have never been friends. And let's, yeah, let's go back to that.

You've known him since you were, how old? When did you first meet Chad? When I first started dating Matt, when I was 14, Matt was 15, Chad was on his mission. Okay. So it was after Chad got back that Chad worked at the cemetery in Springville, Matt worked there too. That was Matt's brother Paul worked there. Matt's brother Brad worked there. So when people get really weirded out by that job, I don't because it was a job. And it was with the

city. They did other things too. They worked at the parks and things like that. So the grave digger thing, at least from like Matt and his perspective, wasn't as weird. Someone's got to do that job. I do think Chad fixated on death a lot. John's kind of talking through those things. I do think that's a thing. Right. And let me just comment. Yeah, thank you for that observation because I think it's not the grave digger thing

that's creepy. It's the fact that his belief system became more extreme because he was exposed to so much death. And like, so what, in addition to having that job, like you, you were, you just said that he, he seemed to have an obsession with death or a fixation on it. How would you recall that? Well, I didn't have a lot of, a lot of conversations with Chad throughout Matt's marriage. I will say, Chad from the beginning didn't like me. there's an incident that I've talked to with Chad later on with Chad and Tammy and

we've been open about it because it was a silly thing but Matt and I did date young and we'd get in fights all the time it was a very teenage relationship but there was a time that Matt and I had we were one of those that broke up got back together broke all the time we were in a breakup. Well, if you're dating him since you're 14, I hope there were a few. There were, there were plenty. So we were in a breakup time. I'd heard through a friend that Matt went and kissed another girl. I was upset. So I went to the cemetery and, you know, walked up to Matt and asked him, did you, did this happen? And he was very being cocky and kind of a turd about it. And I, so I took a swing. And Matt's a lot bigger than me. And so he

just kind of blocked it. And that made me even, you know, more upset. So I like, you know, slapping at him and very stupid. And Chad came over and, you know, Matt's boss and get her, get her out of here. You know, it was just a silly thing. But Chad, that was Chad's view of, of me. So he didn't like me. And I didn't know until years after I married Matt. Matt never told me that Chad, before Matt proposed to me, Chad went to Matt and said, have a strong feeling that you should not marry Heather and that that that was a bad idea. Matt luckily, you know, disregarded that and knew that that would hurt my feelings. And so he didn't tell me that for a long time. So that, you know, Matt, Chad's not liked me

for a long time. And and that's been reciprocated from day one. He's not liked me. I do think because I'm kind of outspoken and I will tell you if, you know, something's not looking right or you've done something hurtful. I will say something. And I don't think Chad likes that either. Well, you're a strong woman. I think that in general, Chad probably just doesn't like women, but I mean, definitely not an outspoken strong woman like you. So anyway, that was kind of the beginnings of me knowing Chad. And then when Matt and I got married. We lived in Springville and just the relationships, Matt was very, very tight and close with his dad. And I believe Matt was raised in a very patriarchal home. I was very tight with my mom

and I was raised in a more matriarchal home. She will tell you that. That's kind of how it was. And so for Matt and I as a couple, we were coming from different, we were raised a little bit differently. So we had a hard time. If we, you know, when you first get married, it's hard. Marriage is hard to figure out. And we would argue. And then he'd go off to his dad and I'd go off to my mom. And we, that wasn't working very well.

And the name of the father is Jack. Jack, right. Jack Chabell. Jack. from what I understand, or at least from reading Chad's autobiography, Jack tends to be like Chad in some ways, fairly quiet. And is that, you know, fairly passive? Does that seem like inaccurate?

I would, yes. He's not at, when I say patriarchal home, I never, I never witnessed him like using his priesthood, you know, That kind of thing, I think it was more just the generation that he grew up in, that that's just kind of how it was. But I will say, I don't want to get a lot into Jack and Sheila and Matt's siblings just because, again, I don't want to speak for them and their experiences. I've always kind of struggled with Matt's dad. Again, because I'm more of an outspoken, strong-willed person. I will share one experience that kind of is an example of kind of the struggle that I've had.

Early on when Matt and I were married, I maybe even had my first daughter at this point. I'm not sure. It was pretty early on. There were, whenever there were issues with anyone in the family, be it with Tammy or with Paul's first wife, Tara, or Brad's, you know, wife, Debrie, it was always, it was always the wife's faults. It was always our fault. It was never any of those boys' fault.

if there was a problem. And I was, I was kind of, I was tired of that. And so one day I remember I was out in their backyard, Jack and Sheila's backyard. I don't remember the circumstance in what had happened. But I did say to him, you know, Jack, Tammy is a Douglas, Tara is a Poulson. I'm a Smith, and Devery is a Nelson. We are all very different people. We've come from different back. backgrounds. What's the common denominator in all of this and the issues that we're having is Daybill, your sons? This isn't all us. We're doing our best with your sons. And my kind of calling that out that maybe you need to look at your sons a little bit. This isn't all our thought. He didn't like that. I think since, and now at this point with everything has happened

in the last 25, 30 years, he's changed, I think, in that. He can see that his voice can do wrong, obviously. I hope so. It reminds me, when you say that, it actually reminds me a little of the Lafferty family. Yeah. That was very patriarchal. Yeah, and Jack would never, like how it was depicted in under the banner of heaven, Jack would never get up and give like some big speech like the Lafferty dad that he wasn't, he wasn't like that. He was quiet. He was more quiet, but it was just kind of that underlying, you know, where the day bells kind of thing.

It was attitudinal. Yes, very much. And so, and I think some people ask us all the time, well, chat is so passive and quiet. and, you know, taciturn, why, how could he be patriarchal? Or how could he be someone who could do something like this? And I think it's important to understand that, and that's, I'm bringing this up because of Jack, that just because someone is quiet and reserved doesn't necessarily mean that they don't hold a set of beliefs or attitudes that are conducive to patriarchical behaviors or misogyny or murder, right?

And so I think it's an important point. Yeah. And it is interesting what I have observed is that each of those boys, there's the four boys and then there's the youngest sister, Becky. Those boys, and Matt has expressed to me, he always felt closer to his dad and not quite as attached to his mom. Not that he doesn't love her, any of that. It's just that that was the dynamic in that.

family. And the other thing that I observed, I was telling Lauren earlier that really, really bothered me when I married Matt, even before when I was dating him, is that just the jokes that were made towards Matt's mom, very disrespectful, joking about her weight, joking about it. They were, they would say things to her about her in a joke. way that I would never do to my own mom. And Sheila didn't require that respect. She didn't. She never said anything. She'd just laugh with them. It really bothered me. And I remember early on saying to Matt, you will never speak about me that way. Our children will never speak about their mother that way. And I don't think Matt realized it.

until I observed that and I said something. And again, I think my sisters-in-law, I think they felt the same way. You just, you don't treat the woman that you love that way. You don't do that. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because even though we didn't know much about Sheila, that in Chad's autobiography,

the observation I made is that he literally gives her one or two sentences, and which tells you the place that's the lack of prominence that she has in his internal world. Yes. And I observed that same thing. I read his autobiography before it was printed. That's a story I'll tell later. But that is when I never, and again, this is just to me, conversations I had with Chad and the things that I observed in Chad, he never had a kind thing to say about his mom.

It was always, I remember there was, after they'd moved to Rexburg, here's just an example. Matt's parents, Matt's mom got really into family history work and was doing a lot of it. And Chad would kind of help her with that. But the comment he made to me was, well, about time she finally gets into family. It was not like, you know, great. She's, it was like, it's about time. He just never, he was just so condescending. He just would never say anything kind, particularly about her.

Reminds me of that story about Tammy when he, she wasn't doing enough family history. So he had to swear at her from beyond the veil about not playing Frontierville. And we only know that story because he thought it was a great story to share. It was funny. And yeah, he thought it was funny. To be all of his life on Prince. Yeah. Who knows what happened behind the scenes that we don't know about.

Right. Right. And to basically try to shape her behavior without talking to her directly. Right. That was very, very, very common. So that's been something that I don't know. Again, I won't speak much more to that other than Chad. And Matt did want me to convey here that he had a very happy child.

He said, he's racked his brain. He's like, did I miss something? Did I, what didn't I see? He really did have a good childhood. It was a very free childhood. He could go out in the morning and come back at night. But that's kind of how everyone did it back in the 80s. And that's, we'd do the same thing. We'd go out. And you grew up in a small town and it was a farming community. It was safe. You could do that. And, you know, we'd go in to eat and then we'd go back out. And so anyway, Matt just said he's, he had a very happy childhood. I think Paul said the same thing. He had a very happy childhood.

Brad has said, you know, things are okay. They don't. I have some of my own opinions on things, but again, concerning maybe Matt's sister and stuff, but that's not my story to tell. So anyway. And I think some of it depends on, we talked about this in the podcast and we talked about the Daveo family. It depends on how someone defines a healthy family. You know, if a lot of research shows that healthy families deal very well with emotions and they're open about emotions and they can express emotions.

And I'm not sure that the Davelle family fits that category. No, and I've even had, and this is later on, you know, as, as. Jack and Sheila have gone through a lot with their kids a lot, before chat, a lot of stuff. And I do, I do think that just took, and Sheila has said this to me, that she'll keep things pretty superficial. Because if she gets deep in her thinking, there's a lot of pain in things that have happened with her couple of her children. And so, you know, she admittedly said that to me. I keep things pretty up here. But one thing that Chad, again, Chad just, if you listen to Matt, and this is common, I think, in every family.

If you talk, each kid's going to have their own perspective and experience in their family. But Chad never had anything nice to say. His was a hard one. He was the oldest. One thing I've heard repeatedly over the years was that his mother would never take. the garbage out and the garbage would pile high and it would have to be him she why couldn't she just be the mom and do the jobs that needed to be done. Babe, have I ever taken the garbage out? No. Oh no, I'm sorry. I take it back. There's been a couple of times when you've assisted me,

but I should say that this is my choice because I'm the one who voluntarily decides to take it out. If I asked you to do it, you'd be happy to do it. It's just that we have this routine and I take it out, but yes, you have you have helped a handful of times. So it's just interesting to me. In other words, he believes, or let me ask you to clarify that his mom should have done all of the household work no matter what it was. I think that was the, I think in most homes, friends that I had, that was the role of mom.

It was very, and especially in the LBS church at that time, that's obviously worked and changed, but that mom does those things. And he was very resentful that he had to do any of those things as the oldest child. So if you talk to him as opposed to Matt, they had very different experiences. That's interesting. So even as a child, not even as a husband, as a child, he felt his mom should be doing all the household work for him. And he shouldn't participate. Quite cutting it.

Yeah. It's an interesting feature of families that a lot of siblings do have different experiences. And there's a lot of reasons for that. Some of it's birth order. Chad was the oldest. A lot of it has to do with different relationships with parents. Some parents just respond differently to kids, you know, different kids in different ways. And so that's important to mention that, you know, Matt will have a different experience than Chad

and respond differently to it. And obviously his, you know, his life has been quite different than chats. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I, the interesting thing to me, though, is that, and I think I'm accurate in this,

is that each of those four boys were drawn and closer to their dad than their mom. Like when would say, you know, most people were going to go to Grandma's house. It was with Mets, it was going to Grandpa's house. house. That to me was weird because, you know, I have grandmas that we're going to grandma's house. And I even said to Matt once, I want my grandkids to say we're going to grandma's house.

Grandma and grandpa's are both, you know, just not grandpa's house. And so those kinds of things would bug me. And I thought it was weird. It is interesting. They expect her to do all the household work, yet it's grandpa's house. Yeah. So anyway, that's, that's probably about all as far as going into the history of Matt's family. I will say Jack and Sheila are their good people. You know, I've heard the examinations of the Cox family and all of that. I don't know any of them. Every family has its issues. I have always thought Chad was weird. I never thought that Chad would do what he did, allegedly did. I don't think he was raised in a home that you could follow those steps and that would be an end result.

I just don't. Yeah, there were issues. And I think there's things that I know there's things I don't know, things that have happened that I have not been made aware of. But at least my observation having been, I felt very loved by Matt's parents. especially in high school. Probably, I will say, Matt was raised in a very, there wasn't a ton of discipline that went on.

Matt could come home kind of whenever. And on the other hand, I was raised in a, there was a lot of discipline. And so that was difficult for Matt and I as we were dating. And there was a time that Matt's parents said to me, if your mom's being to you and you need to leave you and come live in our house. Even as a teenage kid, I thought, who the heck says that? What set of parents says that to a teenage kid? And my mom was really hurt by that.

So anyway, there was just, it was different. dynamic in our homes. And so when Matt and I got married, we said, we want to find a happy medium. We want to have discipline. We want to, you know, there's rules. Probably not as strict as my parents were, but certainly more structure than what, that what, you know, how Jack and Sheila ran things. So you mentioned that Sheila kept things on the surface. What, would you say the same thing about Jack? I think it depends. Like I've had some, especially earlier on, things kind of got harder.

And Matt and I moved away. Oh, that's the point. So when Matt was going to go into a graduate program, we went to CSU in Colorado. I did not want to move away from my family. I was terrified of that. But once we got there, Matt and I's marriage improved immensely because I couldn't run to my mom and he couldn't run to his mom. dad. We had to figure it out together. And kind of from that point on, we did look at moving back to

Utah when his program was over, but there wasn't any jobs weren't available. So we ended up going to Nevada. And we had a couple more kids. We just thought, you know what, we don't need to be living our own family. We consciously made that decision to live away so that we were our own little unit and we needed to figure things out for ourselves. That plays into later when Chad decides to move into our neighborhood. We were not happy about that. So anyway, you weren't saying, hey, come on up, Chad. That was, no, quite the opposite. So to answer your question, John, it was Jack was more early, especially earlier on, I could sit and have a conversation with him. And I could have conversations with Sheila as well.

We'd have some pretty deep gospel conversations. But just as time went on, I didn't feel I could talk to them as I once could when I was younger. Because just things would happen that were hurtful. And anyway, and Jack would, they kind of, I learned later, were kind of hanging on. to things that I thought were resolved and they weren't. So not a super easy relationship. And Matt will say, you know, well, they're in-laws. That's kind of how that is.

Not all the time, but that's how it's been for us. And I'll talk a little bit more about the aftermath of all this stuff with Chad. But as far as the history of the day bells, that's probably all I will say. is that they're, I think they're good people that have tried to do their best in what they knew. And my heart is broken for them. I don't communicate with them at this point, but they've been through more than any parent should have to go through. And I am concerned for them.

I do love them. but I'm choosing to have separation right now from them. So anyway. So we'll all jump to 2014. I was in about eight years ago. I was in Utah. Matt and I had gone down to Utah with their kids. I was staying with my parents.

Matt and his, our boys and Matt's brothers and Jack. Oh, they go to a pheasant ranch down in Utah. They try to go every year. They're going to go again this. year in October, where they go hunt pheasants together. It's been a fun thing for them. So I was at my mom and dad's house. Matt called me and he said, Heather, I got to tell you a few things. He said, Chad is telling us right now that there's going to be an earthquake in 2015

and that the end times are here. And Chad had laid out a few of these events or his dad and brothers and that he knew these things were happening. When Matt called me, Matt was like, can you believe it? And I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, are you listening to this? And he's like, well, it's, I mean, Chad, he's saying. And I said, like, I, for me, it was like a, I don't want to hear it. That's not, that's not happening. Then we, go to, and I can't remember exact dates as far as months and things, but all of us had gone, all of Matt's family went to a place in Island Park. Because Matt, I'm Park, Idaho, beautiful.

It is beautiful. So Matt and I moved to Rexburg in 2004. So we've been there 18 years. We've established a business there. It's been home. So we're all up in Island. Park and Chad starts talking about this Julie Roe and he's publishing her book and he's going on and on about this earthquake and that she's had this near-death experience that she has seen all the

events that are going to happen that there's going to be these white trucks that come up to people's homes and they are going to ask you to bring out all of your food storage those that have their food storage are the worthy ones and that then they will tell you where you need to go in these mountain camps and anyway so it's this whole thing he's telling us all this and i'm just sitting there going what so he tells us all that and he says this book's coming out soon just wanted to give you guys the heads up this is coming how is he telling you guys this is he on the phone is he called a family meeting is he email all just sitting on this deck at this cabin.

Okay. So the book being the Julie Roe? The Julie Roe. Yes, that he's published this book for Julie Roe. Gotcha. And then it's coming out and we need to read it. So in the meantime, we go back home and I, it bugged me. I was like, I don't like near death experience books.

I've never, I don't like them. I have my own opinions about those. I don't want to discount people's experiences, but I have my own opinion. So I just kind of brushed it off. like, okay, that's weird. He's really thinking this stuff. Kind of a side note, his own books that he had written up to that point about kind of the same stuff that he was saying was fiction. It was fiction, by the way, when he wrote that.

It was fiction. This backtracking of these were really, absolutely. He would tell us that. And I read the first trilogy that he wrote. Aaron for Emma those I read those as he's describing in these books that

the same kind of thing there's going to be these camps and stuff that you have to bring all your food storage and you get to this gate or whatever and if you didn't have your food storage you weren't permitted in I remember saying to Matt what

that's how God's going to work in all this if someone couldn't afford their food storage, that they're not going to be saved from all the tribulations. To me, it was just asinine. It was, it was dumb. And I, I love to read. I think he's a terrible writer. I, they're so simplistic. They're so jump, jump, jump to idea to idea that and i even said to him once why don't you elaborate why don't you because they're just they're they were childish to me they were i did not enjoy reading his books yeah he does he does a lot of telling and not a lot of showing right he doesn't he yeah this is

a bit of a tangent but with that you you kind of explained how you were never chad's friend he essentially said to matt don't marry her when you would bring bring things up, like I don't like his books to Matt or whatever the case may be. Did he often chalk it up to, oh, you just don't like Chad? I think a little bit, but at the same time, and Matt just wouldn't read his books. He's like, I'm just not interested. And we'd never buy, like I'd say, should we buy some just to be like supportive? And that's like, no.

So Matt just wasn't interested. So Matt, yeah, okay, so Matt wasn't interested. So he'd never be like, gosh, you're being mean to my brother. brother, Matt just wasn't interested. And he just was like, well, you read him. You don't like him. So you're almost more interested than Matt was or curious. You were more curious. It's been very interesting that yes. And when we get into the autobiography, that's yes. So anyway, I read that first trilogy. I didn't love it. So I didn't really read anything after that. Because I thought how judgmental and that don't think that's how that would play out anyway.

So when he's talking about Julie Rose book, we have that. Island Park experience, I go home and I, I would, I had started going on walks with my next door neighbor, Shirley Closson. Oh, that would be Eldon's wife. Eldon Closson's wife, she's discussed in Bernadine's interview on our YouTube channel. And I do have some opinions on that I won't probably get into. But we'd go for these walks. And on one of these walks, Shirley starts talking about this book where, and she describes these white trucks come and they take your food store. And I said, wait a minute. Who published that? And she said, it's from the Spring Creek Books chat. And I said, oh, it's here. So she's describing Julie Rose book. That was the first

indication. And Shirley's really into that kind of stuff. So I thought, okay, I could see where she likes that. But then over time, I go to our clinic. We have a pediatric clinic for therapy. I go to that clinic and her Julie Rose book sitting on the counter. And at a pediatric clinic and I said to our office manager, who's is that? And she said, oh, it was given to me by another therapist. And I was just, and I meant, oh, okay. And I mentioned it to Matt. And he's like, well, you know, everyone's all day is here, some people get into that kind of stuff. But I just had a knot in my stomach. And then I would hear other people start talking about it. And this thing spread like wildfire in Rexburg. And I was baffled by it because, so I got the book. So I read it. I borrowed it because I wouldn't buy it.

And I read it and I thought, this is insane. People are believing this. that she's legitimate that this near-town experience happened. And so your LDS, you believe like many people in Rexburg, and yet you read it and realized this was insane, trying to comprehend how it's spreading. How is this catching on? And so then, and again, I don't remember, I know that was 2014, 2015, and I can't remember for sure what month this was.

But we were down in Utah. You know, and I was, I'm in a very different place now, but I was a very, very believing LDS woman that I had my ear supply, still do down in my crawl space. And yeah, all this wheat and all that. Okay. But so I was very much into being prepared for whatever could happen. But I was hearing people that were starting to buy. these tents and with stoves in them and excessive and beyond what church leaders had, you know, counseled to do. So, um, and so I would say things to chat, like, and we didn't get together

a ton, um, you know, just when we'd see each other and you taught at a family gathering or whatever. Um, I do, and there's things like I go back and I think that's something he gleaned on to. he took that more serious than what was intended. So, for example, we had a home teacher. This isn't, so when we lived in Rexburgh, we've lived for nine years south of Rexburg in an area called Lyman. Then we moved to the Salem area where we are now that's north of Rexburg. So when we lived in Lyman,

we had a home teacher that came. He was a professor at BYU, Idaho. And this was when the I center, the big conference center was being, it was in the works. And this home teacher told us that it was kind of this thing going around BYU, Idaho, that President Hinckley, the profit at that time, was saying we need to get this, we need to make this building bigger and we need to get it done faster. So people in the area, at least this home teacher was saying us that were taking that

as this is going to be a, there's a reason for this conference center. So that really was a rumor or a, sort of belief system in Rexburg. Yeah. I mean, this home teacher told us this. And at that time, home teacher,

for those that aren't LDS, uh, wards assign different families to visit other families and check on them. So this was a family assigned to your family. Yes. Uh, a male to check on you and he's telling you this. He's telling us this.

Kind of like giving us the heads up. So I take that as, um, oh man, what's going to happen? What's, and so in a, a family gathering at some point, I mentioned that to Chad and said,

here's what, you know, his home teacher told us as a professor up there. They need to make this building bigger and get it done faster. What does that mean? And I think that's a piece of information Chad took that evolved into this. Rex where it's going to be the new headquarters of the church when all this comes down. And at this point, Chad's still living in Utah, but that's, yeah, he's hearing this and interesting and it evolved. Yeah. So that's just an example of anything that,

something like a piece of information like that, it would kind of grow. He brought up the conference center in his talk that we were given that he gave at that preparing of people conference when he met Lori. He brought up how that conference center was large. The church purposefully made that building to look just like the conference center in Salt Lake so that when all of this stuff happened and the church leaders would secretly have to move to Rexburg, they could still hold like a general conference or meetings and things. And the world would still think it was happening in Salt Lake, but it was really happening in Rexburg, that they

designed the building for that purpose. Fascinating. And for those not familiar with the geography, Salt Lake is roughly how many hours of a drive to Rexburg, three, three and a half. And Salt Lake City is the closest bigger urban city to Rexburg. And even like my family and stuff will joke because I again as a very believing person, Rexberg was the place because there's, it's like 95 something percent LDS. It's extremely high. And that was a draw for me as a believing Mormon. And I wanted to move in a place where there was a college my kids could go to.

and a temple. Those were my criteria in Rexburg fit that perfectly. And they needed the services Matt wanted to provide. And so it was a great place to start a business and raise our family. So 2015, Chad starts with all the Julie Row. The books are selling like hotcakes. It's right in Rexburg. The area or nationally, was it appealing to a broader audience as far as you know? According to Chad, it was yes, but I think, and there were people, I know there were people in Utah and stuff eating this up too. Their preparedness stores and things were selling out of stuff. And so it wasn't just Rexburg, Idaho Falls area, but it was happening in Utah.

But Rexburg, it was like thriving. In 2015, at some point, we're at Matt's parents' house for a family gathering. Chad and Tammy are there. we're standing just kind of talking and Chad mentions well um I think we're going to move to Rexburg and I went what why and Tammy's standing there and she said yeah I am not very happy about this and I was not happy about it when Chad and Chad jokingly says yeah one day I was just saying when we moved to Rexburg and Tammy was like what he hadn't even like talk to her he just when we moved to Rexburg and he'd let that slip out.

He didn't let us slip out. He purposely did that. And so Tammy's like, wait, what? Her family, I mean, in Springville, she was in the same ward, same congregation as her sister, Samantha and her mom. And I mean, she was very tight with her family. And she was happy there. It was her home.

So when he said that, when we left that, oh, so in the, that conversation and I kick myself to this day. I didn't see this really happening because Tammy I did not see them moving to Repsburg. And I was like, oh yeah, there's a house for sale down the street from us, you know, like very flippantly jokingly. Again and even you're the prophet. Right. It sounds like you're the visionary. No, thank you. But. He then shortly after he called Matt and said that house that Heather was talking about, he looked it up and he said, Tammy had a vision about that house that we're going to move there.

And Matt was like, what? I thought Tammy wasn't a visionary. At least that's what he wrote after she died. So that's what he's going to tell us because he already knows, I think, what he's been saying. it got back to him, the whole earthquake and that I had said to Matt, shut that down, Matt, shut it down. And so Chad knew that I wasn't on board with that. So you think he was manipulating you by saying it was Tammy's vision. Absolutely. And she did say, yeah, well, he's, he talked about that house. I looked at it. I did pray about it and I felt good about it. So they come up and I said to Matt,

let's try to hook them up at least a realtor that we can maybe guide them to the other part of town not right in our neighborhood um and so we did that we got a realtor they go they go look at the house down the street they were not in that house more than two minutes where they all they had the kids with them i think everybody but garth i'm not for sure and i don't think garth was there but i know Leah and Mark, maybe Seth was on his mission. I can't, I know for sure Leah and Mark were there because Leah was very sad. Well, she was going into her scene here. She didn't want to go anywhere.

It was sad. I felt really sad for her. But they go in, they come right back in. I don't like, didn't like it. And it's way too small. And I mean, Matt get back. We get in our car. Matt's like, I thought was envisioned that they were supposed to, you know, we're being really snide and like,

this is ridiculous. what is happening? So they said we have another house in the area that we want to look at. And so we went, we went to a couple, what's so funny, we went to a house in Lyman area where we used to live. And we said there are fantastic people there. You would love it there. The cutest house we looked at, because we went and did all this looking with them, was in Lyman. It was a cute house. their concern, and I remember Tammy saying her concern, was that it was close to Bear World, which is a park off Highway 20, south of town, where they have bears and elk and buffalo, you know, that kind of thing. People love Bear World.

Yeah, people love Baged animals. So they said it's too close to that because when all this stuff happens and the power goes out, those animals will be roaming. brief. Wow. This is how literal it is. Very, very literal. This is absolutely we're moving here because this is going to happen. So that was a no-go to be in that area because as I remember, that was their explanation for that. Would you say just based on what you've been talking about so far, one of the big questions is whether Chad believed it? Would you say that Chad was a true believer that he really felt that all these events would transpire? If you ask Matt, he'll say yes. He's absolutely a true believer. I'm torn because when you go,

when you go clear back, Chad was very much into the end times. I just recently, we were remodeling our home and I was claiming at a book show and found a book called The Coming of Christ that Chad had given to Matt not long after we got married. In the front of that book, there's a whole page of Chad telling Matt you're going to be instrumental in the events that are going to happen in the last days, that I know that's true. When I found that book and I read that, and again, I read that book, Matt never touched that book. So I remember having read that with Chad's little foreword in there, reading it at this point was a weird experience. I got rid of a bunch of other LBS books in that bookshelf,

but that one I held on to because I want Matt to see that. So as far as how I view... Do you remember what year that was that he... It was shortly... I'd have to look. It was shortly after we were married. Okay. So that would be 1985, 28 years ago.

So that would imply that he believed it back then. of the end times and i think he's always been very very into that um from what i read in that book however chad knows when he needs to lie when he needs to cover himself he knows what to say to certain people like that tammy was a visionary with the house right even and we'll get into this even how he behaved at church in our ward. And the things, the things he didn't say at church, as opposed to what he was telling us behind closed doors, two different things. So that to me would indicate, I think he believes this stuff, but at the same time, he knows how to lie about it. He knows how to manipulate. He knows how to please who. So I'm not a, I'm not a psychologist. I don't know what to do with

But I don't think, and again, I don't know Lori. I think Lori is a totally fully believing person. I don't put Chad in that same category. I don't. Just because of his behaviors and things that I observed with him being in art. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this.

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there's another house that we're looking at for mom and dad, Jack and Sheila. And Matt and I went, what? They've never said they're moving. No. That was weird. So Matt called his parents and said, Chad said he's looking at this house for you. And they're like, no, we're not moving anywhere.

Springville's our home. We're not going anywhere. So he's lying to us. So that happened to be the crisis home, the one that they end up buying. Oh, okay. the one they bought. That was the Price's home as well. Okay.

Yeah, it was called Price's Corner because prices lived, you know, they're all related, lived in the same, those homes before the one price couple. They're the ones that kind of host the Memorial Fent. Is that accurate? Okay. Yeah, that area. So in other words, they own several homes. Yeah, so there's one that Chad bought.

They let them do the Memorial Fence, you know, super good people. So anyway, so they tell us, well, we're looking at that house for mom, dad. So we go in that home, I'm right with Tammy. She walks, then first thing she says is, it smells. And it's an older home. It's older. That's what Tammy's saying. That's what Tammy's saying.

And she's walking through totally unimpressed and didn't like it. And that was that. Like it just she didn't like it. And so we were done with the house hunt. Chad says to Matt and I, well, we probably won't move right now. We didn't see anything that's really working. Could we bring all of our like tent and all of our stuff? Could we like put a shed on your property?

We have 12 acres. Could we put a shed on your property that we could store that stuff? So when this stuff happens, we have our stuff there. And Matt said, well, we kind of have an aesthetic that we go for. So if it meets that standard, sure, you can put one there. What kind of shed? Ew. So anyway, it, um, this is fascinating.

And when you say they, was this Tammy and Chad together? This is Chad. All communication, this was another thing that really bothered me. All communication about this stuff came through chat. And so Matt was very, hesitating. He's like, I guess, if that will keep you from moving here, sure, put your stuff in a shed.

And we, Matt specifically said to Chad, please don't move here. If you feel like you have to move here, please don't move into our ward. We live here on our own for a reason. It's how we

do best. And he's point blank. No mistaking. Please don't move into our ward. He was very direct with his brother. Very direct because I was almost in hysterics because I knew nobody else did, but I knew why he was moving to Rexburg. He told us why that we then, and I'll get into that, we had a conversation with Chad.

So, and it was this trip. He came, they're looking at houses, they're staying at a hotel. It happened to be a conference weekend. and it was the women's meeting that Tammy and her and Leah did not go to because they were looking at houses. So done looking at houses and Matt and I said to Chad,

can we talk to you and Tammy alone at our house? And Chad said, you can talk to me. Tammy's going to stay with the kids. Do your kids want to come swim? Do you want to come? So I think my kids did that. They may have gone and had gone swimming with Tammy's kids. At the hotel.

So I was really disheartened by that, that Tammy was not going to be in this conversation. So Chad comes over. We go up in our upstairs game room, sat down with him, and Matt said, just point blank, tell me why you're moving here. And I want to know everything that you're thinking. And he goes into, you know, Julie Rowe, all that stuff again. and he said this earthquake is happening. It is going to happen.

And Matt said, how do you know that? And he said, we've seen it. Julie has seen it. He kept directing it at Julie, but then throw it little, I know this is going to happen. So when he says we've seen it, is he referring to Julie and himself? Julie and himself.

Tammy is not. Which is the quick aside, Julie Roe is still predicting that earthquake. She's really adamant about the fact that she believes it's going to occur this year. So I guess we should buckle our suit belts. In 2015, it always changed. Right. Right.

It gets pushed back all the time and there's always a explanation. Yeah. And I said to him, I'm concerned. I said, I don't like this. You said this to chat. You said this whole predicting of events. I said, we have a profit. who doesn't say this stuff.

Why are you, why are you too correct on this? And he brought up, oh shoot, the name of the book, Visions of Glory. I had a sibling call me that I had read that book and said, you need to read that book. So I did read that book. And I, again, I thought, so I just kind of threw it to the side. I thought it was really weird. And you were a believing member then. I was a very, very devout believer.

And you were like WTF. Yes. Exactly. So he brings up that book. He brings up the author. Because wasn't that it? Like a author. Someone wrote it.

John, or see, John Pontius. Pontius wrote it. But he wrote Tom Harrison's story. Tom Harrison's name in the book is Spencer. So it was about. Spencer, I've communicated with Tom Harrison. He's a therapist in Salt Lake City. And he is Spencer. He sent me a letter. He wrote that he says it's supposed to just be metaphor and that John Pontius got a lot of it wrong. But I also know Tom Harrison to be a man who believes in

near-death experiences and believes in his experience. So there you go. Were there earthquakes in the book? I admittedly could not read the whole thing. And I don't remember because it was so, it just was nonsense to me. So I don't remember it was. Chad, however, told us in that conversation.

He brought up that book. And his story was that he and Julie Rowe had been called in by some apostle leader of significance, you wouldn't tell us who, that that person said, you need to get your book out there, you need visions of glory, that this was all legitimate. And that that whoever that leader was was telling his own family members to high tell it out of Salt Lake. Do you believe that story? I don't.

if it happened again i'm not a believing member anymore and we'll get into that but i at the time i thought nonsense he's making that up no leader is going to say that because i believed in these leaders i don't know who that would have been i don't know who but he was just trying to legitimize what he was selling to us yeah it seems like if one of the apostles actually believe that that they would be more public you would think with that information and in the hopes of saving thousands of people. Right, exactly. Right, exactly. And Chad. Right. And Chad in that conversation said to Matt and I, you two are going to play a big part in this.

I think he was trying to, he's good at trying to flatter. Like, you are important people that you, so he said to us. Which is, sorry to interrupt, that, that earlier you said that he's largely critical of everything. Right. Except when he needs. When he needs something. He said, you two will become great leaders

in this, in all this that's going to happen. Your home will become like a temple. We've built our dream home in the Salem area. We have 12 acres. It goes up to the Henry's Fork River.

It's beautiful. We love it. But that we were going to become, we were going to be instrumental in what was going to go down. I think in an effort to for us to be okay with them moving there, me in particular. So as he's saying that, I'm thinking I had a lot of cuss words going on in my brain. It's going on. At the time or now. Both. I've always been a cusser. I've been a closeted cusser and now I don't care. But I just remember. I remember what I was wearing. I was so upset at this point. But he had said, we'll just put our stuff in a shed. So it's there. That was that. Did you push back at all on that? I, in that conversation, I was, I kind of let Matt take the lead on that one. But I would, you know, it was more Matt just wanting.

wanting to hear Chad say definitively this is happening. I know it's happening. All of that stuff. So we were clear in where he stood that this wasn't, maybe this could happen or it was happening. And he was trying, he felt it was, he and Julie Roe needed to get the word out. So that's 2015. I can't remember the month, but it was, gosh, was it even a week? Later, he called Matt and said, we bought that house. And Matt's like, what house? And he said, the one on the corner, down around the corner and Price's house. And Matt said, well, I thought, Tammy didn't like it.

Well, I told her if we paint the walls and we recarp it should be okay with it. I was livid. I was so upset. And I said, Matt, this can't happen. this can't happen. And he said, Heather, it's happening. They bought the house. So they moved, and it was summertime because we had gone camping when they said,

here's when we're moving in. I said, I'm out of here. I'm not going to go help them move in. I was so angry because he completely disregarded what we had said. And because we had said, pick somewhere else in Rexburg. Just don't move into our ward. Do you think he really wanted that house or do you think it was part of, saying, look, because you don't want me to do this, I'm going to.

I'm sure that was part of it as far as I was concerned. But what he was telling us was that land has, I don't know, four acres or something on it, that it was instrumental in what was going to go down and that we would be working with him because it was in such close proximity. I think, yeah, when you tell that story, it seems to me that part of Chad's Emma was always to bring on minions, bring on followers, right, to have people that agree with his vision and then

to get them to do his bidding. And I think he probably thought, even though you guys didn't agree with it, it seems to me he may have thought that he could convince you or persuade you. Well, he was telling people we were happy about it. Okay. Wow. He was telling, I even, my grandma, my grandma Nielsen was in Tammy and Chad Ward. Um, in Springville. My grandma called and said, why is Chad moving up there to work for Matt? And I said, what?

She said, Chad's not a therapist. What job is he going to do? And I said, Grandma, he's not moving up here to work with Matt. He's moving up here because he thinks there's, he's going to, a big earthquake is going to destroy all of you. I was very open to people. This is why he's coming. So I don't know if she just somehow,

through a grapevine heard that, or if Chad actually told people that, I don't know. But that was the story she got is that he was moving up to work with Matt in our business. So again, he's always distorting the truth to work people against each other, to manipulate people. Yeah. And that we were happy about it and supportive. So anyone that would say that to me, I'd say, no, no, no, that isn't how this went down. We are very upset about this.

And here's why he's coming. So they make the move. We decide we're going camping. I'm not helping them move in. I don't want to be anywhere near this. I'm so angry. They move in. Well, everyone loves him.

Everyone loves Chad. He's super nice. He's a famous author. He's a famous author. Everyone, you know, Julie Rose books, people that have heard about him. They're like, he's bringing. He's Matt's brother. Matt's brother.

And we have worked really hard. We have a successful business in this town. We've worked hard to, make a good reputation for ourselves. And so they move in, they move into the ward. And again, I don't, that was summertime 2015. Your worst nightmare. Not only they move in, everybody loves them. It was, it was so hard because, and Matt was even like, Heather, it's happening. Get over it. I could not get over it. And I'd even try. I'd be like, okay, just, you're just chill out. It'll be fine. I couldn't do it. It was. It was.

like it was just this foreboding that I felt. And so they move in. And I don't remember how they weren't there very long before I said to Matt, I want to talk to Tammy. I want to hear from her how she's feeling. So we contact Chad and he said, yeah, I'll bring her over. But I want you to talk to me. Don't direct anything at her. Because this one, it was. It was. It will make her mad and she'll get upset at you. So he's trying to... That feels like a manipulation. Complete manipulation.

And he did that with Tammy over and over and over to where Matt's parents really struggled with Tammy. I think Chad did that purposely. He, because Tammy could be headstrong. She could say, you know, if she's, you know, if she's, didn't like something she would tell you especially when it came to like matt's parents but um here's a little aside that will just the dynamic of tammy's i was not close to tammy um i don't think chad would allow anyone to get close to tammy not in our family it sounds like

chad isolated tammy yes and as i've talked like to samantha her sister and stuff i think he did that with her family as well especially towards the end but um Tammy, so it was kind of side note, it was really hard to sit through Tammy's memorial in Rexburg. We went to both, went to the funeral in Springville Memorial in Rexburg, to sit down with my kids and just, and as it should be, they, you know, Tammy's this wonderful, kind, loves children, da, da, da, da, and I turned to Matt and said, that is not who I am. I'm glad she was that. I think that's who she was. but the perspective I got with Tammy, she was mean, she was, didn't care what you thought, that's what I knew of Tammy. And I do think that was a manipulation on Chad's part. Because anyone that you ask in Rexburg who knew her, who worked with her at the library,

that knew her, she was amazing. They loved her. And how she loved children. And I turned to my son, who he's 18 now, so he'd have been 15. I said, is Tam. Have you ever spoken to you? He said, nope. Not once. I automatically go to isolation and manipulation and him trying to turn people against Tammy and making sure she doesn't get close to anyone. But I'd be curious.

Your thoughts. There's hints of what psychologists now refer to his course of control, which is a type of domestic violence. It's trying to control his spouse. and who she communicates with. I mean, the goal is to isolate her to some degree, but mainly it's about him portraying a certain image of himself and the community.

It's about him getting power, basically. So it was strange at the memorial because that was not the perception I had of Tammy, even in the ward. So I'll go back. So I want to meet with Chad Tammy. And Chad's response, you know, direct everything at me, like he was shielding us from Tammy.

So before they came over, I said, I'm not doing that. I'm here to talk to Tammy. I will talk directly to Tammy. She's a big girl. She can answer for herself. So we have this conversation. We're out on our bridge outside.

And I just point blank said to Tammy, are you okay? Are you okay with this move? And she said, well, I wasn't. at first. I was really shocked because Springfield's my home, but then I went and prayed about it and got an answer that this is where we're supposed to be. And so, okay, I'm not going to argue with that. I said, but you do know you're directly affecting our lives and what we've, we're not happy about this. And especially with, you know, again, if it was just them moving to Rexburg because they want to

would be a better, because it was a good move for his kids, because kids have done well there. If it was just you needed a new start somewhere, you wanted to live in a different place, I could have gotten over that. That's what's, you know, I can't tell you you can't live in Rexburg. It was because I knew what Chad was coming with, that I was so angry.

Which is his belief system. His belief system. What Tammy said there, by the way, is the version that he, talks about in his autobiography. But I think in the autobiography, he talks about her resistance

a little bit, but then he puts it on her and says she prayed rather than him. And that's what, she did say that to us, but I was with her walking through those homes. She did not want to be there. Leah did not want to be there.

So, I wish I could remember. It seems like Garth was there. But Garth was at UVU. Arth was in college. He didn't move with the family initially. That came later because he was coerced, in my opinion. So anyway, we have that conversation. I do remember saying to Chad, because Chad had approached my oldest son, Isaac, and told Isaac that he was going to become this great leader in this thing. And it made Isaac uncomfortable. So he told us about it. So Isaac told Matt and I. So I said to Chad, you do not approach one of my children. When did he do that?

It was somewhere in there, I would have to ask Isaac, but it was somewhere in, you know, this 2014, all this stuff's going to happen. I don't know if it was that hunting trip. I don't remember when that was said to Isaac. But this Julie Rowe-esque time. It was during that, yes. So roughly maybe 2016-ish or. How old was Isaac? Isaac's 23.

So this would have... Isaac was in... Yeah, he was in high school. People were in like 16, so he was young. So, well, this conversation with Chad and Tammy was in 2015 after they'd moved. So I don't remember exactly when Isaac, when Chad said those things to Isaac,

but it made Isaac uncomfortable. And Isaac's a, he's a fantastic kid. And if anyone's going to be a leader of anything, Isaac could be that. So I could see where Chad could see that in Isaac. Right. He wanted Isaac on his team. Yeah, he wanted Isaac on his team. That's the, right, that's the whole follower issue that Chad's always looking for minions.

There was this interview with Destin, saying and Chad goes over to his house and I think it was the same thing. He wanted Destin on his team. He wanted Isaac on his team. He's handpicking people. Right. And he did. He said the same, he said similar things to his own son, Seth, not Garth, the Seth. So I did say to Chad, don't ever approach my children. I would never do that to your children. Even if I had some revelation where I think that I would never approach your children is. not your place. Well, you didn't really have a

tight of a relationship with his children either, right? Because he kind of would control. Yeah, and one thing that was really weird, we'd all joke about it at family events. They always came late. And then all of a sudden, they'd be gone. Like, you know, we knew something to be going to this time. They never stayed the whole time.

And they would never say, hey, bye, or leave. It was just they were gone. would be like, okay, they left. So that was kind of a, that was a thing that they would do. So anyway, so during that conversation, I did say that to Chad and he said, okay, I won't do that again. And then the one, the one thing that haunts me that Tammy did say in that conversation with the two of them, well, because I did say to chat, I don't believe you. I don't believe what you're saying. I said, I don't get a confirmation from the Holy Ghost that what you're saying is true. And I said, I feel like I'm a pretty intuitive person and I can discern things pretty well, despite not having the priesthood.

I don't believe you and I don't think any of this is going to happen that you say is going to happen. He's like, well, Tammy said, Heather, you shall know them by their fruits. And I said, what does that mean to you? Fruits, meaning all the money you've made off, Julie, that enabled you to move here? What are the fruits? And she said, and that was her, you shall know them by their fruits. That's really the last, like, conversation I had with Tammy. Because over time, and as I wasn't, I didn't go to church like, hey, everyone, this is what Chad's saying to us.

I didn't do that. There were select people that I would talk to. I was in a Relief Society presidency at that time. I would sit and vent to that presidency in our meetings. And I told them exactly what Chavid said to me. One of those women, her husband was our, he was the second bishop. We had a bishop that, oh, here's a good story. So we had a bishop.

Really quickly, I can't wait for this story. I just want to say with that last, Tammy conversation. It's actually very chilling, foreshadowing. And that's why it haunts me. You'll know them by their fruits. I'm going to be murdered here allegedly. Right. And Chad's going to do the unfathomable. Yeah. Not long after they moved into the ward, we had a bishop, Rick change, got a new bishop. And that bishop gets put in. Not long after that, Chad's made the executive secretary. So he's the secretary to the bishop, Bishop Rick. I could not raise my hand because, you know, they asked you to sustain the person.

I couldn't do it. Did not sustain Chad in that position. But he's made the executive secretary. He's in these bishopric meetings. That Bishop brick only lasted about a year because that bishop was put in a new state presidency. So that, that's why there's two bishops that, um, knew Chad during all of this. This is like the head over the congregation that you're, that you were a part of as was, was, were Chad and Tammy. And again, I don't remember how far into this, this happened. This had to be

in 2016 at this point. Um, I went to, they're called know your religion classes. Our state president at that time taught those classes. So I attended those. The state president in the class I was in this particular day talked about in times, signs of the times, that kind of thing. After that class, I sat in my car and I emailed that state president. And I said, there is someone who is new in our ward. I didn't use Chad's name. But I said he's predicting these ant events.

He's very detailed. he's an active member of the church who holds a temple recommend very nice man but this feels really off to me um kind of a reach out of what do i do with this how how can he be this upstanding member but he's off on the side doing this other stuff i got a response from that state president just saying this is a common thing i've i've heard many times um And in that email at the end, I said, incidentally, because we're now into 2016, none of his predictions came true. None of it happened.

Right. And Chad always had his explanations. It would change. Well, it's in visions. It's hard to find timelines. You know, he just always had these stories. Right. In dreams and visions, there's easy. Like Julie Raw.

Exactly. So anyway, he responds to me to state president and says, if you feel like, if you're concerned enough that I need to step in or contact. this person's state president, I will do that. So I went back to Matt, showed him my email, showed the response. And Matt said, Heather, just leave it for now. You know, if we get really concerned, we'll contact him. Well, that never happened. We get this new bishop, puts Chad in as executive secretary. And then I'm shortly after we're put in this new Relief Society presidency. where I would talk about this stuff.

So upsetting. And, you know, they'd listen and they're like, oh, my gosh, that's weird. But I kind of, I left it at that. And then that bishop only was in for about a year because our state presidency changed. That bishop was put in that state presidency. So then that's when we get a new bishop. That bishop's wife was in that Relief Society presidency with me. So I would, she knew all of this stuff.

I knew she would go tell her husband, who was the bishop. And anyway, it just, it, I would say certain things to certain people, but I was, I was trying not to create problems for Chad, because I try to be a good person and not create problems for people. But anyway, things are continuing. So Chad, in the meantime of all this, he starts a blog that was short-lived because I'm like, I've seen the blog. I've seen the blog. So he's starting to be more open. If I had said any of this in Springville, people would think I'm crazy.

I can do this in Rexberg and this is where this stuff's going to happen. That's interesting. That's telling to me. So I'm seeing this blog and I said to Matt, he has got to stop this. He's doing this in my neighborhood. and in my home. This is my name. And so Matt called his dad and said, dad, can you talk to Chad? Because this is not okay. He did. Jack talked to Chad. And because Jack said to Chad, Matt's concerned, Chad stopped the blog. Because he respected what Matt had to say. He didn't care what I

had to say. It was just what Matt had to say. And it bothered Matt, so he stopped the blog. So I thought, okay, God, maybe this will die down. This will go away. It seems like there was something, I know he was on a vow. And he was, that's a. Were you ever on a vow? No, because I wouldn't pay a penny to something like that to be a member of that. A vow really did take Rexberg by Storm too.

It did. Lots of people were on a vow. And I did hear that Chad had his own little special section. you had to pay the membership for a vow, but then you had to pay an extra fee to read what Chad was writing. Yeah. And the vow was started by Roger Young, who I heard about Roger Young through Shirley Cawson. Oh, really? She told me about him. So anyway.

So Shirley Cawson was teaching you a lot about what Chad believed it sounds like almost. It was shortly after Shirley filled me and all that, I quit doing the walks. because I didn't want to hear about it. So I didn't talk much to her. Although she did come do an energy session on me because she was studying, she said for hours and hours and hours and hours. She was studying not into that.

And I had a problem with my foot at the time. She said, can I come do an energy session? I'm a massage therapist. I learned a little bit about energy stuff. I'm not really into that. So I was like, sure, if you want to. So she came. I was just trying to, again, I try to be nice. And so she came over and she said, do you know how to do the muscle testing where you lean forward or backward? And I said, I am not

familiar with that and I'm not comfortable with that. She said, I'll do it for you. So I'm sitting on a couch. She's sitting across from standing across from me with a magnet in her hand. And she'd ask questions and wave that magnet over her head and do this leaning stuff in the whole time. It's weird. Again, Shirley Claussen is your neighbor at this point, but Bernadine's interview is a great introduction to who Eldon is. Yeah. And she was, you know, this is helping Eldon. This is helping my grandkids. This is, and anyway, there's more detail in that that I won't get into. But she did the whole session on me. She left. The next. day, how's your foot? And I said, same. And I did say, you know, Shirley, this really isn't my thing.

I said, what I do know as far as energy work is that if you don't really believe in it, it's just not going to do anything for you. I said, I'm not interested. And she did want to try to come back. And I said, no, I just, I don't think so. So anyway, so in the ward, I'm not saying a ton to a lot of people. but mainly this little Relief Society presidency and a few others. And then things progress into this preparing a people thing. Yeah, tell us about how did that start? So I would kind of, and Matt would always be like, Heather, let it go. Just don't worry about it.

I'm like, I can't. I can't let it go. It's bothering me to no end. And so I would listen to these preparing a people things. And anytime we'd be like in a restaurant in Ricksburg, they had their flyers everywhere. I'd tear them down. I'd throw them away. Just because it was, again, I'm a believing member.

It's going off course as far as I was concerned at the time. From the doctrine of the LDS church. The doctrine of the mainstream LDS church. And he's, we're only two Dave L. Bell families in Ricksburg. There's and ours. And I did not want to be associated with that. Again, I think people just caught word that I was not happy that they had moved there just because

they were family and we wanted to be on our own. And Chad had a whole different story as to why they moved to her expert that he would tell ward members. It was just, it's a great opportunity for our family. We just wanted this new start. He'd just had a different story than what he'd said to us. He was really controlling the narrative. Totally.

Yeah, especially with just the regular ward members. He had his little side thing. But that really bothered me that he wasn't being honest. And so it made me look, just look like a disgruntled sister-in-law that didn't like him, didn't want him in there. That's what people thought. Yeah, they just think this is a family quarrel. You're just being petty. This doesn't have to do with his belief system or what he's, you know, trying to recruit your son to it.

Right. Okay. So at that time, my oldest son was getting his Eagle Scout Award. So I put this whole program together, typed up a whole program, had it all ready to go. we got the desserts ordered everything. And our bishop walks up to me and said, Mark, their youngest son is getting his eagle. We're just going to combine.

We're just going to have them be a part of your program. I was like, what the hell? And again, the feeling I got from that bishop was, I said, well, I've already made up a program. He said, it's okay. It got totally dismissed. So we do this whole, oh, Daybell, Beatle Scout thing.

And I just ended up tossing the program, didn't even use it because I didn't have time to go in and reprint everything to add Mark and change the end. Chad had said, just do what you were going to do. We're just going to include Mark. So Chad really doesn't care. He doesn't. He doesn't.

And so, and what bugged me in that one was the bishop didn't care either. Yeah. He just thought I was being petty is what I took from it. And again, I all these kind of goes to the theme of people are not listening. They're not listening. And so at that time, and again, when I'm referring to these bishops and these state presidents, they're good men. I consider them friends.

They are not my enemies, but they did not listen. And I have my feelings as to why. So anyway, that bishop gets released. We get a new bishop. His wife is still in our release site presidency. So I knew what I was saying to them was getting back to him, that he was aware. And then I get called 2000. I don't remember 2000.

I've been out now of that calling for two years. I was in two years. 2000. Oh, it was 2018 because I was very sick at the time. I had a diagnosis at that time. It was still sick and recovering. So that was 2018. This new state president.

call me in and want me to be the stake relief city president. And let me explain what that is real quick. And I didn't realize you were sick when you got called to this. There are congregations in an area where you attend. That's the bishop is the head over that congregation, the leader. And then there are other callings. And it's free. It's a lay clergy, meaning nobody's paid for the work they do.

And there's a Relief Society president. That's the head over the women's organization. in a congregation. Then there are multiple congregations put together that equal a stake. So it's bigger. It's a larger, broader thing. So a stake president is a really big deal. You are called as the Stake Relief Society president. That means service, free of charge. You're not getting paid for this. You are literally now in charge of multiple congregations, all of the women, in those areas. And that is a really, really big deal.

I mean, very few women are called to a calling like that. You must have been a very stalwart, devout person to be called to that. And you're clearly a capable woman so I can see why they would want you call to that leadership position. But that is a very big ask and a very big deal. And I have been in leadership callings. in all there's primary young women's relief society i have been in every kind of presidency i've been

a primary president twice i think i'm just a glut i'll just do whatever you're talking to people can count on heather day i and was good at what i did so um i'm called to that calling there and in this it's a large stake there's 10 wards it's big state oh wow over 10 congregations wow so And this does play into kind of my faith moving out of the LDS Church. It was an interesting, when I was called to that, I felt that I was going to be called to that position. I view it a little differently now than I did then. But I was sick at the time getting better, but I was sick.

I have something called sarcoidosis that affected my lungs and my joints. Matt's brother Brad happens to have that same diagnosis. It's kind of rare. It's weird. But I was recovering from that. And so I get called. I'm working directly with the state president, who, again, is a good man.

I do consider him a friend. I haven't talked to him since I have left the church. But I would be open to that in explaining further why I left, but he's, I do, I do really like him. He's a good guy. Get called to that position. The very first person to text me, to congratulate me was Chad. Wow. Very first person. That's interesting. I did think that was interesting. But during all of this, my, like with Tammy, like when they first moved, I, I mean, I took them dinner. I baked bread. I said, here's a great dentist. Here's a great doctor. I tried.

my best, even though I was so upset to do what I could. You tried to welcome them and take care of them. I tried. The best that I could do at the time. Did more than Matt did. Um, so anyway. And I, and I, you know, when I'd see their kids, I'd, how are you doing? I went to Leah was put in the homecoming royalty at the school, went and watched her. I went and listened to Emma talking sacrament. Like I was trying to be supportive of them, not Chad, of them. Um, But over time, I don't know what Chad was feeding, Tammy, as far as I was concerned, but Tammy wouldn't talk to me. At church, if I passed her, I would have to say, hi, Tammy, how are you?

Or else she'd walk right by. I had to instigate any conversations. Even when... I think he was saying something. I definitely do. And, or, you know, I just, I didn't believe in what Chad was doing, and she knew that. And so she didn't like me. Even like when our son, Isaac, got his mission call and they announced it in the ward.

And, you know, lots of people are coming. Oh, congratulations. She walked right by. And that hurt me. And we had talked to Matt's parents and said that. You know, that was hurtful. And they said, well, that's just Tammy. So again, that compared to all the praise she got when she passed away.

I think the lovely things about Tammy I didn't get to see. And vice versa. I think it was just coercive control. Someone was. I do think that. One thing Chad did say to me was that Tammy was the only bright spot in her family. Not really. I know Samantha.

I went to school with Samantha. She's an awesome person. Fun. She's in drama. And she thought, why would he say that? we've seen an interview with Samantha on Dateline she has interviewed and she seems like a wonderful her and her husband fantastic people um and i was confused by that i even called my i talked to my grandma who's in that war and i said where's chat's white and and even uh tammy's mom my mom

knows very well and they're good people i and that is one and chad said to matt and you and matt are the only other religious people in our family. And Matt was really offended by that. He said, well, dad's been a bishop. And, you know, they're very, no one's never not been active. I mean, Matt's younger siblings have had their issues. But for Chad to say that Matt and I and I, inferring that Matt and I and Chad and Tammy were the only religious people in the family. that was that was that was not was bugged by that so that's not true yeah so it was just weird

there was not much of a relationship between tammy and i um and chad just when it seemed the only time i saw them it was at church we didn't get together we didn't hang out we didn't do any of that um and chad just turned my stomach he just did i just But I would keep track of what was going on in preparing the people. I watched Nancy and James. There are little snippets of this. Mike and Nancy James. Preparing a people founders.

When I see they had Chad on the podcast and they said, we follow Chad here from Springville. I went, what? People are following this. Oh, I'm trying to be nice. Yeah. Can you continue to talk about the progression a little bit from So you've started with 2014 and Julie Rowe. Do things become bigger?

Do they... Well, does Mike and Nancy James following them? Right. Do they gain momentum? So we're roughly in like 2016. So let me go back. There are a couple things that were important to me. So after Chad and Tammy move, again, I don't know exactly when this was, but it's when Chad and Julie are tight.

She's here. So there was this big meeting they did at the tavern. in Rexburg. We have heard about this, the infamous tabernacle. We had people we knew well attend that. And Matt said, should we go just to see what this is? And I said, I'm not stepping up in that building. I've heard numbers like 2000.

It was at capacity in that building. What year was that again? It had to be shortly after they moved there. And that was summer of 2015. So it was either the end of 2015 or maybe end to the beginning of 2015. It was one of the first, not the first, but it was one of the first preparing a people event and the first one held in respect. That wasn't even preparing a people. That was before preparing a people.

Oh, this is before preparing people. This is when it's just him and Julie Row conquering world. Okay. So they come. It's at capacity. And all of this stuff is, from what I hear from chat, it's like proving to him that he's on the right track. So we even, we even said to him, sorry, I'm jumping because as I talk, I'm like, oh my gosh.

And then there was things I've tried to just block, I think. But we had said to him, it's going to be really hard for your kids to get jobs in Rexburg because of the college, all the college students get the jobs. High school students, it's really hard to find a job. Well, and even for Tammy, you know, it might be hard to get a job. Well, they all immediately get jobs. And that was proof. That's proof, you know.

proof they're on the right track you know and my attitude at the time was good for you i'm glad it worked out for you and you've got and you're doing well here his kids did have done really well in fretsburgh and i'm happy for that um Tammy loved being a librarian at the elementary school people loved her i was happy for her in that so anyway as things are progressing at this massive meeting julie row gets up and tells her story and then from what i heard because it wasn't there that Chad got up and he's expressing some of his experience. This is kind of when I think his near-death experience stuff starts. I'm going to talk about these near-death experiences because to me it's a crock of shit.

It is. I think what he did is he saw the notoriety, the success that Julie Roe was getting off of hers. So he went back, hey, what could I turn into a near-death experience? experience. His children may think I am the worst person ever because I'm saying this, but Matt's had conversations with others in the family. This is kind of the consensus. So when he talks about this one where he jumps, does this cliff jumping, you know, and all of a sudden his spirit can, even he explained this to us at one point. His spirit came out through the top of his head and his knees kind of got caught at the top of his head.

So his spirit didn't come completely out of his body, but kind of halfway. It's so literal. Anyway, so that first one he tells us about, and Matt and I, after, I was like, Matt, he had an adrenaline rush. And he's making it into this thing. And so there's that one. And then the one where he's in San Diego and he, and Matt wasn't there. Matt was on his mission at that point. but Chad and Tammy and Paul and they were all there, Matt's parents.

And I heard the story once, you know, Matt's home from his mission. We heard all about it because he got pretty beat up. He got in this wave, throwing him around. He's all scratched up. They did take him, you know, bandaged him up. But all of Matt's family was there. And as I watched over time, that story morphed into by the end, seeing Jesus or something. It was like, what?

So he, I think he just found what he could to turn it into that. The San Diego near death experience. Do you remember what was the initial talk of what happened? Was it just an accident? What happened? He, the wave caught him, churned him over and over and he got out. It was serious. I mean, he was in trouble, but they got him out and he was banged up, but it was okay.

Matt did say to his dad, I think Matt and Paul maybe, talked to his dad and said, don't you think, because in that near-death experience, he claims that his grandpa Keith came to him. Matt said to his dad, don't you think that if you had that experience and you're out and you're, you know, you're safe, you're, that you would say, I just saw grandpa. I just saw grandpa. none of that was said. I truly believe that he just needed to find some experiences that he could turn into a near-death experience

so that he could do what Julie Roe was doing. Matt has always felt that. I believe Paul has always felt that. It just made that up. So the Daybill family kind of... They were there. They were there. And Matt wasn't. That's why he asked.

And there was no immediate talk. No, nothing. Okay. Nothing. And so even the books that were fictional, I do believe those started as fiction. But once Julie Rowe had her momentum going, he, you know, how can I make this happen for me? So then he goes in, well, these weren't really fiction. These are things that I've seen, but I had to cloak it under fiction.

So they could be sold in church-owned stores. I 100% believe that. He needed the near-death experiences to give him the authority to say that he had these visions. And that he could see into the spirit world beyond the veil. So at what point he, because his kids, I think, are pretty convinced that he has that ability. Yeah.

From what I can tell. You're not talking to him right now. No, no. And we'll get into that. But he, so I do believe from very early on, he, because one story he did tell us that I thought was weird is that they bought some trailer home pretty early on in their marriage,

that they were going to bed one night, and Chad could hear demons outside his window. and said to Tammy, oh, I didn't dedicate this house. We haven't done that yet. So he dedicated the house with his priesthood and the demons were gone. That's a story I was told long ago. So that would have been I was married to Matt. 90s.

So I how and some of the stories, again, there's some I've been told that are second hand that I won't share of things he did in. his home to kind of show or prove of his abilities to his family. Okay. Well, he on his mission, in his book, I talked about this on the Netflix documentary. In his autobiography, he actually mentions that when he was on his mission, he started developing the ability to separate evil from good spirits in the different. So he was in Newark, and he was going to the various complexes and kind of poor, you know, I mean, urban poor areas of Newark.

And he started at that point, he claims that he was able to. And I did hear those stories early on. Okay. Yeah, those were early on. So he was talking about those when he got back from his mission? So you would think if you have that ability. and then you have this new death experience that all your family is there

that you would come out and say I saw grandpa, this, da da da, da, da, that none of that happened. So I think Chad's always had, again, I don't, he obviously has something going on in his brain. I don't know what, I'm not a professional. But, yeah,

there were weird stories from our, early on. But the near-death experiences, I don't believe, happened. And he just created that. Because over time, as he would talk about them, they changed. They become more elaborate. They're more and more happened. Kind of like Julie Roe, like her near-death experiences are so expansive. That's not even a near-death experience. That's making it up. I don't know. So, That's how I feel about those near-death experiences. I don't think they happen. You know, memory is such a funny thing.

I think for, like, we talk about this as if clearly he's lying or he's being deceptive. And in some sense, I think that's true. But the way memory works, I think you can actually convince yourself. And I think that's where he's at now. You know, Lauren and I have talked about there's a documentary with Jim Kerry called it's about Andy Kaufman

and it's about Jim Carrey played Andy Kaufman I forget Man on the Moon I think is the name of it well they filmed the actual production of the of the movie

and so there's a documentary that's based on that and you see during this documentary the Jim Carrey starts becoming Andy Kaufman right and at the end he says something like

I didn't know how to be anything other than Andy Kaufman, right? Like, it's similar, I think it's similar to that. I can see that, yeah. Chad thinks, like initially he's saying he knows that it's not real. But the more he gets into that role, I think he's starting to believe it, right? That he's, it's not now Chad Daybell some guy with, you know, these that's able to separate good from evil spirits it's chat daybell that has prophetic visions and i think he's really buying into that role yeah and i agree with that and i will say right here i won't

get totally into this but that does play into my feelings even about joseph smith i think that's there's a parallel there as far as first visions and things like that so at the more i study church history the more I was seeing, there's a lot of similarities there. We've compared Chad to wanting to be like Joseph Smith. Although there's some, it's interesting because even Julie Roe, like on the Netflix documentary,

and I've talked about this in some of Chad's writings, it's not clear. There's times when he'll portray himself as a prophet, but there's times when he'll actually kind of seem to cross that line into, like, deity. like he goes from something that's human to, you know, Julie Rose said that he was going to be the Davidic king of the New Jerusalem, which means essentially he's going to be Jesus.

I mean, did you see any of that? No, because he didn't talk to me about those things. I did learn in some of the paperwork that I've seen, according to his writings, that he does believe he's been the Holy Ghost. three different times, who is part of that Godhead that the Mormon belief, you know? Part of the godhead. So I think it just evolved.

So again, that's where I say I'm torn because I do think he believes, I think he's told himself those things enough that he believes them, but then he sure knows how to lie to people. And that's the issue that I had. So kind of going back, so. You know, our relationship with them just more and more divide. And so I'll kind of jump to when Tammy died. So Matt and I were here in Vegas for a conference.

When the phone rings, Matt answers, it's his parents. And they said, Tammy has died. They don't know what happened. They just know Chad's called. Tammy died. That's all we know. We'll try to get a hold of you, you know, when we know more. I am, I just, I'm, I'm weeping.

I'm, what? What's going on? Matt called Chad. He said, Chad, I have a conference I have to go to. I just want you to know, mom and dad called. I'm so sorry. I will call you later when I can. So Matt leaves.

I'm in this hotel room. Again, I'm not close to Chad, but I wanted to hear him. I wanted to hear what happened from him. Because again, this incessant knot in my gut is never left me. I called him, Chad, I'm so sorry, what happened. Can you tell you what happened? And he lays out a very scripted story. She starts coughing, like 10 o'clock at night.

She's coughing. And she's, she's coughing. she's coughing so hard, she's like thrown up and stuff. But she calms down, but about midnight, she starts coughing again. And finally calms down. And he said, then at like six in the morning, the sheets come off of me. And I hear a thud. And he said, Tammy had rolled off the bed.

So he said, woke me up. I went around and I could clearly see she was dead. She was gone. And he said, she always, her feet were always hot when she slept at night. So she kept her feet off the bed. And so he said, you know, the weight of her feet had pulled her off the bed. And in my, I think this makes no sense. So he said, then I called Garth, yelled out to Garth, come help me to put Tammy back on

the bed. And he said, she choked. And I said, Chad, are you getting an autopsy done? And he said, no, the coroner came. She could clearly see she had choked. And she had choked. She had choked. Because she'd thrown up. She'd choked. And that she died. That's how she died. This is a new story to me. This is new. So that's the story I got. And I, he said, said, and the funeral is in two days. And I said, Chad, we're not even home. Can you wait until we, and his brother Paul was out of town as well. And he said, no, it's in two days. So Matt and I had to skip there. I mean, we got a rental car. We had flights to get home later in the week, but we got in a rental car, called my kids, can you bring me a dress to wear to the funeral? We barely get to

that funeral. And got to the funeral. wrong. So why did you say it was in two days? What was his need for it to be rushed? He had no explanation. He just said it's it's in two days. So Matt gets back from the conference. I'm I'm a wreck and I said Matt something's not right. I don't know what I'm thinking but I sure hope Chad didn't neglect helping her or I don't don't know what's happen. And Matt said, do not accuse my brother. He was ticked at me. We didn't speak the entire drive back to Utah. And I didn't flat out say Chad killed Tammy. I didn't say that, but I just, it didn't, it was not right. And so we go to the funeral. The funeral to me was weird

in that it was Chad spoke kids like no one outside of their little unit other than the bishop and this one of the songs they played played them at both the ricks the

funeral and put your shoulder to the wheel oh my gosh you don't know oh my gosh who plays that at a funeral put your shoulder to the wheel push along do your duty a heart full of song we all have work

Let no one's shirt. Put your shoulder to the wheel. I mean, looking at it now, I think it makes a little sense. And insofar as Tammy's role was to get out of the way so that he could be with Lori and fulfill his vision. Well, and what was his story? Tammy had a work to do. Tammy had a mission on the other side.

Put your shoulder to the wheel, push along. And that's all she was to him, too. I just want to say too is I feel like as you say even what he thought of his mother Tammy's job was to do work to do work that's what she was there for she was the one that always had a steady full-term job right have you have you told that story to law enforcement officially okay yeah not you can talk about not there's some things I can't talk about okay but initially that I didn't talk it to law enforcement but initially that I didn't talk it to law enforcement until later. Right. This is still. This is still, this is just my gut. Fresh that I had nothing that I could go to the police with. You had no proof. It was a knot in your stomach. Other than this doesn't feel right. And I didn't know what else to do with it. I there wasn't, I had nothing else to say. This doesn't feel right. You know about Lori Vallow. I did not know about Lori Vallow. I just knew about the preparing. So what did happen.

And I do remember this date. It was like February-ish, 2019. So this would be before Tammy. No, Tammy died in October. This is beginning of the year 2019. I, Chad approaches me at church, which he never did. And said, hey, I just want you to know I'm done with all the Julie Rose stuff. Okay.

And I said, I did see that Mike Stroud was just excommunicated. The look on his face was like, oh, what? Because I followed this stuff. Right. Mike Stroud was another podcaster in Arizona, actually, around the Lori Vallow kind of listening circuit. This is after 10? Oh, I'm jumping around.

So this was early 2019. So March, February, and then she died in October. So this is before. This is before, springtime before. he says that to me. I'm done with Julie Roe and I was like, oh, that's good to hear because I just saw Mike Stroud was excommunicated. Julie Rose probably on her way. Yeah.

Which was true. She was excommunicated shortly after that. But the look on his face that he, that I even knew who Mike Strab was, he knew I knew more than. He knew you knew a lot more, that he wasn't controlling you. Right. It scared him. It just, I think that made him nervous that I knew who that was. and I

so anyway I said that's great you know I'm glad you're out of that I did get some other information concerning that that I can't share here okay so do you think just when you when you tell that story the first thing that comes to my mind

is is how they're a target we wondered that Do you feel like you would have been? When we were told, so I'll go, I'll talk about that. So that happened in the spring, 2019. Julie Rosex communicated. So there's a picture that they use of Chad and Tammy in Midway, Utah. He's got his arm around her.

That was the last family get-together we had. But I've wondered, did he, bring up polygamy with her and she was not going to have that. Have Jonas fastened in a big queue again. Ay, aye, aye. But Jonas just flinaer

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