Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL EXCLUSIVE: Heather Daybell, Chad Daybell's "Dark" Sister-in-Law, Breaks Her Silence (PART THREE)

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

Welcome to our dinner table. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  Subscribe to our YouTube, @Hidden True Crime, for additional insider interviews and an in depth psychological podcast covering the Chad Daybell case. This is the first episode of a three-part tell-all interview you will not want to miss. In our opinion--the most detailed interview to date. Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell's "dark" sister-in-law. She sat down with Lauren and John Matthias at their dinner table for 5 hours, and shared her experience.  Watch Part Three of Heather Daybell's Interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAN4caCGMc&t=126s Chad Daybell is behind bars along with his wife Lori Vallow Daybell. They are the subjects of the Netflix Documentary "Sins of Our Mother" that our host Dr. John Matthias was featured. We've also been featured on Dateline's covering of this case. Chad and Lori are charged with murdering their spouses, and Lori's two children--Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow. They await trial in 2023. Each night this weekend at 6 pm pacific we will premiere an episode of Heather's interview. Episode 1- Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at 6 pm pacific (7 MST, 8 Central, 9 Eastern).  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ INTERESTED IN ADVERTISING?: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I wanted to share this part of my story because I, again, I don't owe anyone an explanation as to why I left the church. But I do want people to maybe have an understanding, especially in a place like Rexburg where it's so highly LDS. And I know there are others who are in my same position. And I will say up front, if you are worried about hearing some of the things I might say, maybe information you are not aware of, maybe don't listen to this because what I learned devastated me. I would never, I've described it as I would love to shout all of this from the rooftops,

and at the same time, never speak a word of it because it's devastating. So after, you know, COVID was lifted, received. restrictions were lifted. I chose not to go back to church. I did, I think, one or two times, and I felt extremely uncomfortable being there. People I've heard had the impression that it was just I didn't want to see Chad's kids at church. I didn't want to, I just didn't want to see anyone because of Chad's stuff. That had to do with it in the beginning.

but by the time restrictions were lifted and I wasn't going back, it wasn't that. I think people realized once those kids were found and Chad was arrested. Like I said, some people reached out

and just, you know, we're sorry that we supported him. So that kind of, you know, took care of itself. But I do want to just, like I said, said, I'm going to share this here. I'm going to share it on one other podcast, and then I'm done. And thank you. We have those who are LDS and those who are not LDS. We have such a wide variety of listeners, and I value that about our podcast, that it can be a safe place for everyone.

So this is going to be Heather's journey out of the LDS faith. And again, we're honored that you're sharing that with us. And so if this is difficult for anyone, Thank you for that disclaimer. Yeah. It may be difficult for some. Don't listen. But I know that there are others who are going through or have had. And if I can help anyone, then it's worth me sharing.

When we dare to share our truth, we do always help people who are in a similar situation. So thank you. So that's my intention. It is not to hurt people. It is not to, I don't hold anger toward members of the church. I hold anger toward the church leaders, meaning Salt Lake headquarters, those who've been in the past church leaders. I think local leaders, the ones that I worked with, I think they just do what they've been

trained to do and need to stay in line. and so when there's a few reasons so all this stuff starting with Chad again very devout member when all this is going on I felt he was very off track all of that stuff did write the letter to the women of the congregations in our stake that was lead to court TV I wonder by who Yeah. So, but I did get a lot of people reached out to me and just said, thank you for what you said. And I feel a lot differently now about most things that I said in that letter. Right. That letter, it talked about your faith in the church and that you don't have all the answers, but you know that Christ loved everyone. And you were writing a letter of reassurance, I would call it to the women.

that you were leaders you were a leader over. Was that a good way to explain it? Yeah. And that Chad because this was I think this was more far reaching than someone to admit as far as who was

meeting in homes and kind of buying into Julie Roe and Chad Daybell and Eric Smith and all that stuff in the area. So there's there's three main reasons that I left. One, I have a child who came out to Matt and I that he's gay.

That was about five years ago. Anyone that knows my family and knows my children, I have phenomenal children. I don't take any credit for that. They came pretty amazing. This child in particular is, as good as they come. People that know him know that. So to have him expressed to me the struggles that he was having and had had for years since he was young, it explained a lot of things. I explained a lot of things. So I was grappling with that five years ago in how to make that work in the LDS

faith whose doctrine it is that if you are gay or part of the LGBTQ community, unless you live alone and celibate your whole life, you are not worthy to go to the temple. So you understand that if you don't go to the temple and make those covenants, you forfeit your opportunity for the celestial kingdom. That is the doctrine. I've had a lot of people try to tell me that isn't the doctrine. Yes, it is. That is the doctrine. We have church leaders in Salt Lake, Dallin Oaks in particular, who reinforces that every general conference and whenever he can't. I was grappling with that. I get put in the steak

Relief Society presidency. Again, I don't fault the state president in any way. He's a good man. His counselors are good men. But when I got put into that calling, one of the first things we were asked to do was provide a dinner for all the mission presidents,

all the state presidents, their wives in the area. Our stake was asked to host that. So luckily, my secretary is she does weddings. She's interior design. That's her thing. She saved us. So we get this whole big dinner put together. And I happened, I already had something scheduled.

I wasn't going to be in town. So did everything I could to get that put together. And then I wasn't at the event because I was out of town. But my counselors and my secretary were. again the state president is a good man i think he was just doing how it's always been done he approached my counselors and my secretary and told them they were to stay in the kitchen they told me that after the fact that did not sit well with me they are there doing you this huge favor under a calling they don't get paid this is free this is true

free. This was a big event. And they got told to stay in the kitchen. They said amongst themselves, you know what, if Heather was here, she has every right to be in that meeting, if she wanted to be in that meeting. So I was kind of glad I hadn't been there. Had that been said to me, that would not have gone well. Because the way that women are, again, it depends on the leaders, the way that women are treated in this benevolent patriarchy is so inappropriate. And that's something that I've always had an issue with. As a woman, again, I was raised in a matriarchal home. Me, my sisters, we speak our minds as it should be.

So I have never done well with the structure of the church. To be in, like I've said, been in a lot of presidencies, been president, been all that stuff. And to have, here's a good example. Years ago when we lived in Nevada, Matt's boss became our bishop. So that was hard. Yeah. I was called at eight months pregnant with my third child as primary president. Oh my gosh.

And our bishop slash boss, so there's a power dynamic for you. Wow. Said to me, I don't, I didn't want to do this. I went back to the Lord a couple times. I didn't want to make you do this calling, but you're the one. And my very obedient self was like, yep, you never say no to a calling. So, of course, I'll do it. Then I went home and sobbed my eyes out because the reason he was a new bishop,

He was called new bishop because they'd split the wards. So they mixed everything up. They divided the geographical location and divided the congregations. So the majority of this new ward, I didn't even know these people. It vacated every calling. I was made the primary president, vacated every calling. Primary has a lot of callings. I think it was like 23, 26 callings that we had to fill as a presidency.

in a month before I had my baby. Primary president is in charge of every child in the congregation while you're about to have your third baby. This is when most women in the United States are preparing for maternity leave and you just got called to a massive job. So it's like saying, hey, by the way, you can't take maternity leave for your third child. You're about to take on a major, wow. Yeah. So luckily, I had fantastic counselors, secretary, that I became. very good friends with, they were a huge support to me. So we took it very seriously. We prayed,

we tried to get direction, all of those things to fill these callings. Every time we turn a list in, here's what we feel. No, no, no, we'll work. Go back. What? Wait, we really are working hard and feel that we're inspired to have this person or this person. It finally got to the point. I just said you do what you're going to do. So you were doing what you were asked to do, which is fill these responsibilities, and then the bishop would say no. Because they're doing it for a whole ward. So they know where they're wanting to put people.

And it just felt like such a game. And I go home and crying to Matt. And I was like, we're wasting our time. It's like he's trying to have me guess who do you want. And then so it was very, very frustrating. and nothing, he's also my husband's boss. So anyway, that's just an example in one calling of many that I've had. Just where you feel like you're really putting your heart and soul into something,

but you're just, you're not quite, you're not up there. You really aren't making any decisions. So that's always been an issue for me. being in the steak calling, having that first event happened, then there was a couple other like that where I needed to get sandwiches. And I finally sat down with the state president and I said, why am I here? I'm not a kitchen maid.

Anyone can cook for sandwiches for you. Put a food committee together. Why am I here? Our presidency has more to offer than just food. And to his credit, he agreed. He's like, you know, you're right. So he started involving us more. And there were some, you know, we put on, we really were only in those callings for a solid year before COVID hits.

So we put on, you know, a stake event. We did a couple of things. I did get to speak in our ward conferences before COVID hit. So, and that I had a lot of good feedback that that was important to people. So it's funny to me that actually having that state calling helped me leave. When I'm in a state council, which consists of a whole high council, that's like how many people is that? I can't remember how many they would call.

Like 15th, is it a 4.12? I don't remember. All men. and then you got the state presidency, and then you have like the guy doing the notes. So there would be up to like 17 men in that meeting and three women, the three presidents, you know, primary in women's early society. And if those women didn't feel like sharing anything,

which sometimes they didn't, it was no voice for women. I always spoke up because I thought, if we get this little chance, I'm taking it. So anyway, it just became. more blatantly clear how the word just is inappropriate. It's not the way this should work anymore. And I voiced that to the state president. And he, you know, and he'd say things like, we know the church really runs by the way, you know, they're the ones doing work. And that just felt patronizing. You know, yeah, we do know that. But no one's, no one will say out loud how

wrong this is. So anyway, that was an issue in that calling amidst everything going on with Chad and not feeling heard by leaders about Chad. I did mention earlier talking about discernment to our state president. Once the kids were found, Matt and I did meet with our bishopric. as a whole we wanted to meet with all of them. Matt and they did that. And, you know, all they could say, you know, we're so sorry.

This is so awful. You know, all of those things. And I was able to voice there too. You guys sat next to him in Bishop Rick meetings. Did you not get any kind of vibe? You're sitting next to a guy who's now accused of murder. Anything? Stirring you, anything?

And one of the counselors did say that does bother me. No, nothing. So again, it just made it very clear. This whole thing, and I trusted that. I've been taught my whole life, this discernment, this spirit, this added measure of information that leaders get became very clear to me. No, they don't.

Not in this situation. It's pretty extreme. I think if God wanted them, God could have told them. there's some bad stuff going on here. So that was, they call it a shelf breaker. You know, you put things on the shelf, you put things on the shelf. That was when it just became very clear. You guys don't know any more than I do.

Well, I would say you know more. Yeah, strangely. As a woman, I could pick up on a few things. So there was that. So my son, you know, he's gay. I'm trying to figure that out. the state calling's not happening for me. And I even met with our state president,

and I told him about my son, told our bishop about my son. All the bishop really could say was, this is cruel, and it'll get harder. That's what he said. They admitted that. This is cruel, because they can't figure it out either. And they know your son, and they know your son. They know him.

That's what they know. And they love him. He was the choristerian sacrament meeting. He plays the piano beautifully. He plays the cello. Here was another one. He, they called him to the stake, like be a family historian. David Bednar, one of the apostles of the church, said, and I took this literally, I was very literal in a lot of things.

He said, if you get your kids involved in family history work, pornography and all that won't even be a temptation. It wasn't the case. My son was doing all kinds of family history work. I had no idea what he was struggling with on his own, all by himself. So promises made by church leaders that I took literally and was doing everything asked. And then some was not panning out. So there's a lot involved in here that I'll just skip over. but it was I asked to be released from my calling fall of 2020 and was released.

At that point, I was trying to make my son being gay work in the LDS setting because I still believed that the church was true. I was trying to make it work, but didn't feel like I could genuinely get up and teach about, gospel principles anymore. The following January, still with no way of supporting my son in an LDS context, there was nothing for me. State president had nothing. When I met with the state president

and explained my son, I said to him point blank, could you live alone and celibate your whole life? And he said, no, I couldn't. I said, I know Matt couldn't. That's not even like a mentally, that's not even an option. Like, choose that just so you can try to get heaven. It didn't make any sense.

And as I would talk with him, you could tell it, he was struggling with that too. How do you make that work? So January, this is 2021, I get online. I'm trying to find somewhere something to help my son. And I hear, I know there's this group affirmation that's for LGBTQ. People, I, you know, that it's associated with the church. The only thing that I could find that maybe would have something that was safe in an LDS context. Get on there and looking at things.

Okay, this might be an option. Somewhere in the comments of somewhere on that page, someone referenced the book of Abraham not being true. And that's the Poole of Great Price. It's from the LDS faith. That the LDS faith in their canon of scripture, that's one of them, that it's these plates that off papyri, some Egyptian papyri that Joseph Smith got from a guy's traveling the area, and that he translated that papyri into the book. It was the book of Abraham, literally the book of Abraham.

And there's diagrams and stuff like that. I had no idea what this was talking about. So it referenced these gospel topic essays on the church website. So I thought, oh, great, I can go there. It's on the church website. It'll be okay. I read that essay and about pooped my pants. I couldn't believe what I was reading that they were now saying, you know,

this wasn't a literal translation of the book of Abraham in, now that we know actually Egyptian language and they can't, the papyrate that exists is a funerary text. Funeral document. It is nothing to do with Abraham. And you're reading this on the LDS Church website. On the gospel topic essays on the LDS website. So then I read all the other essays.

There's one on polygamy, which I always hated pilgrimy. That was one that I never could settle in my brain. And it references, yeah, Joseph Smith had 30-plus wives and some were. sisters and some already had husbands. This was all news. Did not know any of this. That just started. Did you think polygamy was something that started in Salt Lake City with Brigham Young? Yeah. I, yes, it was that Brigham Young, you know, that Joseph Smith had talked about it, but that, you know, Emma wasn't really on board. And so it just kind of, they waited. And then Brigham Young did his thing in Salt Lake.

So that was devastating. And then to learn about the rock and the hat and that that's something, you know, Joseph Smith's translating. Yeah, you know, you see the pictures of the yearman thumb on the glasses. It's all a weird story anyway. But then to hear, no, he actually put a peepstone or a sear stone in his top hat and put his base in that. And that's how he was getting words. So it wasn't an actual translate. It just, I was like, what religion have I been a part of my whole life that I knew nothing about?

So that just started a whole, I researched day and, day out, day and day out for months and months and months. Try to convince myself that what I'd given my entire life to was still somehow true. Been lied to, I knew that they'd covered things up. They had changed things, that twisted things, but wait, that I gave my whole life to this. God wouldn't let me be deceived this way. I tried so hard to make it work. Until one night, Matt was laying next to me, I was reading a document called a letter to my wife, similar to the CES letter, which kind of contains all this stuff. I had read the CES letter and I think I was still in a state of, this can't be true, this can't be true, this can't be true. But when I read this letter to my wife and it shows that

it was about the temple ceremony, the temple was my second home. I was in that temple once a week. I volunteered in the temple for a couple of years. You said earlier you wanted a college for your children and a temple. Post by. And I was going to be a temple. And I was going to be a temple worker, when my kids were all in school, and I, you know, all of that stuff. So when I'm reading this document and it shows comparing what's done in the temple compared to Freemasonry ceremony and that Joseph Smith had done, had become a Freemason just weeks before he created the endowment ceremony. Matt was next to me. I physically, I had a physical reaction. I was shaking. It was like my heart broke. It just broke my heart to realize it's not real.

None of this was real. Something that I was trying to make work for my gay son that was killing him wasn't even real. And that's when I right then knew I am no longer a part of this. Matt knew it. He watched. He said, I watched you. I watched that leave you. This was done for you. So I've never been back to church since, other than my youngest son spoke in

sacrament meeting. I went and listened to him, and it was grueling to sit there in a sacrament meeting. So for those that, again, I attribute it. And the interesting thing, because I used to, you know, Chad was so off track in his, his teachings and his little group. And Eric Smith is full of it. And all that. But as I researched, I found where they got that stuff. More probation. Joseph Smith talked about that.

They were going, what they were doing was going back to the fundamental LDS church. Because the church today is. not at all like the church as Joseph Smith. Julie Roe kind of is going down that route a little bit too. She's not part of the LDS Church anymore and speaks out against it, but then she'll say she still believes in Joseph Smith and that the LDS Church is lying. And I went to the Ferm Expo in the spring that I still haven't really fully discussed with everyone, but I was really trying to grasp, right?

What is it the sets the firm Expo apart from, it's the new, it's preparing to people. Right. It's just that they've kind of divided. It's preparing to people. And some people there believe in multiple probation. Some people don't. So what is it? And I would say the overall take is it's very religious, devout LDS people who believe that the mainstream LDS church has been let astray and they're trying to go back to the roots. And go back to their roots. Whatever that might be. Although people disagree with what that is. is, I would say they're just, yeah, just the extreme religious. Yeah. So what you're saying, I see that. Yeah. You know, validated.

That's where, so when I'm learning about the different accounts of the first vision. And when, you know, the story we get told of Joseph Smith has his first vision, he goes home, tells his mom of God and Jesus Christ, appearing to him. That didn't play out the way we're taught. Very different. And there's different accounts. So as I'm learning that, like I said earlier, there were some very clear parallels between what Joseph Smith did with his story and what Chad did with his story. And so when John's mentioned, you know, you can tell yourself something long enough and it becomes real to you that really happened.

That's the conclusion that I came to. with Joseph Smith. But ultimately, and I've expressed, because I'll say, my husband and three of my four children are still believing members. Matt, I would say, is very nuanced. He doesn't buy everything like he used to. The women not having decision-making opportunities and things in the church he does not agree with and never really has.

The polygamy part, you know, where Joseph Smith. There's a lot of information on that, and I went through everything I could find. I don't believe that a man can be called as a prophet and then treat women as he did, as Joseph Smith did, and manipulating and coercing and threatening eternal damnation if they didn't agree and all of that stuff. That's not from God. So when I could finally say to myself, that didn't come from God. And I could let that go, I could finally breathe. It was like, okay, that's something, I don't have to worry about that anymore.

Because it was always, I did a Facebook post about it. It was always a concern of mine. You felt a weight lift. I felt a weight lift because I'd always been afraid if I died first, that if Matt got remarried, he would get sealed to that woman and I would be in a polygamous marriage. Oh, wow. Because that is the doctrine.

Our prophet today has two women he is still to. In his belief and the church's belief when he dies, they are both his wives. On the flip side, a good example, and this is another thing that bothered me forever. My mom, my dad passed away when I was nine. He had cancer. My mom wanted to remarry.

to a man who had never been married. So he's never been sealed to someone. At that time, 38 years ago, you could get sealed for time, but not eternity. And at that time, there was no policy that they could be sealed after they were gone. That's the policy today. So my mom and dad, on complete faith, my dad especially my stepdad took on his wife and her four children i was the oldest of four little kids

at that time knowing he would never be sealed to her that's changed over the years once they're both gone we could have them sealed together and then my mom has to choose who she'll be with this always felt so wrong to me and I would talk about it with my mom and my parents are just very faithful and said it'll all work out that's the only answer you get it'll all work out that's that's that's what i've heard you know you just god'll take care of it god'll take care of it it'll all be worked out but that just never felt right and i would say to them if it's if you can be sealed once you're both gone, why can't you be sealed now? That's such a, I mean, in an LDS faith, that's, that can be so helpful to know that you're sealed together and you're, you know, they would love that.

But that's denied them because it was my dad that died and she's a woman. And there's no reason for it. And so if it had been swapped and your mother had died and your father had gotten remarried, that wouldn't be the case. He could be sealed to another woman. So because of that in my own family, and my mom and dad, my mom's stepdad had two more kids together. Those kids are sealed to my dad, not their own biological father because the ceiling is under my biological dad, not their own. That's bothered them. I don't even know my dad.

They know their dad. So none of it made sense. And I would say to Matt, please, if I die first, go ahead. If you get remarried, that's fine. Just don't get sealed. Don't get sealed. And say, well, what if she's never been sealed? I'm going to be a jerk about it.

I don't care. Not my issue. I don't want to share you in heaven. After what you've gone through in your life. Yeah. So anyway, those are things that have always been really big problems for me that I just tried to be faithful. So when I find out all this stuff about church history, and I did not take it lightly, I researched. I did a lot of research and just came to the conclusion that this is not what I thought it was.

As soon as I could say that this isn't true, all of my devastation concerning my gay son was gone. It was gone. I could finally breathe again. That weight, all the weight over the years was gone. And I have struggled with anxiety and depression my whole adult life, been on medication, been all my adult life. The last couple of years, as I have just let these things go, because I don't, I don't think they're real.

I don't think they're legitimate. I'm not on medication anymore. I'm not this anxiety-ridden, depressed person. Do I get angry? Mm-hmm. Rightfully so. Do I, am I sad sometimes because I gave up. so much of my time, my talents, my money to a church I've discovered isn't true.

So that's what's been going on in our family the last year and a half, two years. That people not seeing me at church are attributing to this is all about Chad, is a little bit about Chad. This was our own family thing. and we I think are through the worst of that. Probably if you mentioned that three of your children are still believing, that is likely a heartbreaking thing for them to watch you, or am I making that up?

Oh, no. That was for each, even my gay kiddo to have such a devout mom, because I was the one, K, I'm up for scripture study before you guys are up and then you get up and we're doing scripture study, and then we did all the things. Wow. I would go to the temple. I used to go once a month,

but then when President Nelson would say, hey, get to the temple as often as you can. Okay, who does that mean for me? Okay, I guess I can go once a week. So I would up it and up it and up it. And this is how you raised your children. And then once they're raised, you're shifting once they're raised, yeah. Yeah.

So, you know, and they're figuring it out for themselves. What feels right to them and what doesn't. They do have a brother that's gay that they love with all their heart. That's true. That's got to be accomplished for a lot of them. So they're doing their own thinking and working through things. I just got to a point where I couldn't continue. If I stayed with the church.

And Matt, if he was sitting here, would say, he just said it the other day, if you were to go back to church, it would destroy you. And he said, I can't support that. That's a beautiful, supportive thing to say to you. And again, he's going through his own experience and his own journey and how he feels about things. And he's, I would say, very nuanced. He goes to church once a week. My youngest son is leaving on a mission next month. to serve for two years?

To serve for two years. The only way I can deal with that is because of the kind of son I have. I'd call him nuance too. Because he has said, you know what? I love my brother that's gay. I don't get this. I'm going to teach this the way I feel I should teach this. And if it's a problem for someone, send me home.

he's going to do it on his terms. And he's promised me. I said, the only way I can send you off is if you promise me that you go, he's going to go to New Zealand, Wellington, New Zealand. Wow. It's a really cool place. You go with the attitude of you're going to learn from them. Beautiful. Don't go as an 18-year-old kid and say, I've got information you need, and it's the only way that you can get back to.

God. That's beautiful. There's so much to learn. Right. To go and have all the answers. Go to learn. Go to learn. Learn from them. Learn from their culture. There's a lot that you can, that you can gain. What a beautiful piece of advice from his mother. It's the only one I could give. Don't. I said, don't call people to repentance. Not your place. there's a woman in our ward who I admire that she feels a lot like I do in different things but she's choosing to stay in the church to help make change. One thing that she has said is there are as many ways to get back to God as there are people. Our church is not the only way to do that.

So that's kind of the attitude that my son has and he's, hopefully he has a good experience. It's going to be, it's hard enough to send us a child on a two-year mission. It really was devastating. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this. It's a single company that sells a software. suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales.

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I do post about the LGBTQ community. I do I post about things because I want people to understand. You know, I have my parents, my siblings know that I've left and I'm the oldest of six. Three of us have left. Three of us have not. It was hard on my parents because I was very, again, I was very, very devout. It was hard, but they also know their grandson who was gay. And they understand how hard that is to make that work in, I think in their own brains, but especially in mine as his mom. I just couldn't, I couldn't do it. You know, and all the information about the history of the church, all that stuff, they, you know, whatever, I don't know what they've looked at. but they're in a stage in their life where it's been good for them.

Don't have all the answers to all the questions, but they're good where they're at. And I respect that if it's good for you. But I will say, if I'm very, very honest, and I've had this conversation with Matt many times, it is hard for me to understand how people can stay, continue to be tidying to, and support a church who knowingly hurts people. And that's where I was saying before, I can't. So even, you know, when I talk to Matt, I'm like, I don't know how, I don't know how you believe this anymore because it hurts one of your children.

it hurts me. And so that's what he's grappling with. And so, you know, I said, but even at this point, if they all of a sudden, yeah, gay people are just like all the rest of us. And they can go to the town, they can get married, all that stuff. And women here, you can have a priest. You can have a priest. And too little, too late. So I bring this up because I was the Stake Relief Society president.

when I mentally was done. Wow. Again, a very big leadership calling. It's a highest a calling as a woman can get unless you're on the board or like in your Salt Lake City. If you're in, yeah, the step beyond being the stake release of society president would be being a leader in Salt Lake City in the headquarters. And the general leadership, which if you look, when they have the little charts in the, I don't

even know what they call the magazine anymore leohone or whatever of all of the general leaders and it's row after row after row of men in this little box down here of women um that little box is really all that's left and you have to be in salt lake you haven't be in that area um so that's how that's how devout i was and um even to the point of as i've done my research as i've been in therapy it was I was I have think I would fall under the category of religious scrupulosity where I was a bit obsessive with it. Okay. So beyond devout.

Beyond devout. If you told me, so here's an example, you know, there's fast Sunday or Sunday of every month. They want you to fast miss two meals, pay your fast offerings. We paid a lot in fast offerings. And I got to the point of, you know what, if I do it once, a month, great, but what if I do it every week? That's going to get me more in tune. That's going to get me, you know, more blessings. So you're going extra. I was doing beyond what was asked.

The interesting thing to me, again, and Matt, you know, in my home, temple pictures, Christ pictures, you know, it was very religious home. It's been interesting having left now to have people say to me, you just took it way too seriously. Or Matt saying, yeah, our house was really kind of uber religious. Nobody said that to me then. Nobody said, hey, maybe you're taking this too serious. I was always told what a spiritual giant I was and how devout I was. And it was a good thing.

You were made the Stake Relief Society president. So no one had an issue with it or a concern until I left. And now that you've left, that's the reasoning. Yeah. You just took it too seriously. Really? Yeah. Why didn't you tell me that when I was doing it?

So I guess, you know, again, going back to my intent and even, and it's so much, there's so much to this. Again, I did so much research. And anyone who has gone through this process, they'll say the same thing. I did so much research. have researched this stuff to death. What, you know, the temple thing, all that stuff really broke me. When I learned at the second anointing, that stuff that, I won't get into that. If someone wants to know what that is, they can look that up and research it themselves.

But it's real. It is. Yes. That is real. People in higher positions receive a second anointing. which essentially guarantees them the celestial kingdom. Right. I didn't know people could do that.

I just thought Christ could do that, but I was wrong. So that one was really hard. But the general conference that the prophet Russell Nelson talked to the doubters and called them lazy learners and lax disciples. those that leave or those that doubt are lazy learners and Lex disciples. He was talking to me. You're just a lazy learner when you've just said yourself that you were a scriptorian. That's what I have found in different groups and things that I'm in of people that have left.

It's very similar to my experience where they research, and researched and researched. And it was not taken lightly. Typically, they were very devout like myself. Because I'm a big proponent of honesty. Don't lie to me. Don't twist things. Don't deceive me.

You're a direct. You're a direct person. Yeah, we've seen that in the interview. So you want people to be that same way for you? I demand that of myself. I'm not going to lie to you. don't lie to me. And if you do, I am your someone I no longer trust.

And that's what happened with the church. I no longer trust its leaders who I once revered. I don't trust them. And it ultimately got to where, and kind of where I am now, is even with God, I trusted God, that I was on the right track. now that I find that I wasn't, where were you, God? Where were you? Why don't you warn me?

Why don't you let me know Joseph Smith did all this stuff? Why didn't you? Where were you? So I don't even trust that anymore. I have learned to trust my own instinct and my own gut. Because it's not really led me wrong when I've listened to my own gut. It's when I did some overriding and I trusted someone else, trusted that all this stuff with ceiling practices and how women are treated and all that.

I'm just overriding that all the time. When I gave that up to someone else, I shouldn't have given that up to someone else. So I call myself a very happy and hopeful agnostic, meaning, I don't know. I don't know. None of us really know. You can choose to believe in God and whatever helps you. But for me, now at this point, and it can evolve and change, but I find greater happiness in not knowing. And saying I have my tattoo here.

I'm going to bring it up. It reminds me of your tattoo. Yeah. My tattoo says, whatever will be will be. And that's what my grandma Smith would say to me. When I was in high school and growing up when I'd get freaked out about things, should say, Heather, whatever will be will be. It'll be okay.

and that's where I'm at now is I don't need all the answers. I'm going to believe the way that my heart feels best, and that is as no longer an LDS member. I would love at this point to remove my name from the records and resign completely. I haven't done that out of respect for my believing members of my immediate family. For my children. For my children. And Matt didn't say to me the other day, he's like, what if you do these interviews

or what if you say something on social media that gets you in trouble and like they threaten to excommunicate you? And I said, I know they do that. I don't think they are going to do it as much anymore. They're excommunicating a lot of folks. And Matt said, I'd rather you resign than that happened. And I said, no, I don't think my state president would do that to me. He would only do that to me if told.

But I said, I would make them do that because to me it makes no difference. It doesn't hurt me and my whatever happens after this life. But in their minds, they're separating me knowingly and intentionally from my family. If they want to live with that, they can live with that. I'm going to put that on them. Don't think they'll do that. But if they do, that's what I'm saying. It's another way they hurt people.

They separate families and hurt people in their minds. So I'm not worried about that anymore. I'm going to speak up if people are in the same, in that process, have discovered information they didn't know. And it's devastating them and they're going through that process. I'm through the worst of that. and I would be more than happy to talk with people, just give support, especially in Rexburg, Idaho, where I know there's people that feel like I do, that they don't say anything.

Again, over 90% of the population is LDS. It's a really difficult place to, because there's a lot of inactive people there. There's, you know, that don't go to church. it's a really difficult place to have been such a believing member and then not be like I am. I also have a hope since the beginning of this case, I know that those many who are LDS, who definitely are very upset at what Chad and Lori did and how they represent their faith, will quickly jump to saying this has nothing to do with the LDS faith. And I understand people who want to jump to that.

I disagree with that. And I think that this whole interview has shown that it has, that's not true. But I have, you know, and I'm idealistic, but I have this hope and this desire that that if we can continue to be a safe space at hidden true crime, that those who are LDS and those who aren't LDS and those who are angry at the LDS Church and those who want to protect the Lius Church, that perhaps, you know, and again,

this is my idealistic brain, that we can all just not judge as much and just work on understanding one another rather than feeling like we have to protect our own beliefs and our own views and our own. way of thinking, let's just work to understand one another. And that's one thing that I will post about is that we are making that happen in my own little family. Matt and I, I think our marriage has improved immensely since I have left because the whole dynamic of priesthood and all that's gone.

but we're making it work in my family. We all see things a little bit differently. And again, don't get me wrong, this has been, it was devastating for my family. But we're learning how to do just what you said. It's I'm respecting my son that wants to go on a mission. Is it hard? Really hard. But I love my son.

would it be easier for him if his mom was all on board and he was going on his mission knowing that mom was praying for him and all of that stuff? Yeah, I would. It'd be a lot easier for him. But he'll say, it's not where you are, mom. And we see things differently. See a lot of things the same. And we've got to do what we feel as best individually.

That's beautiful. and you're teaching your children to be true to themselves, and that's a beautiful lesson. Be true to yourself, and that is one thing I've learned a lot about is differentiation in families and that the decisions I make as an adult person are not a reflection on my mom or not a reflection on my dad. It's not a reflection of your lazy learning. No. And they know that's not true. They know I am very.

I know that's not true. I know that's not true. And again, I think that's, you know, to stop labeling people. stop labeling people. And that's where I feel I am a better human being is that I no longer categorize people as, oh, they're gay or ooh, they're that, or ooh, I don't do that anymore. It is interesting to me that the values that Christ taught of loving your neighbor, I have been able to understand better and actually live that way better, having stepped away from the church.

I feel like I'm a better human being. So that's where we're at. And again, I don't want to hurt members of the church. What I do ask, you don't have to agree with me at all. You very much disagree with me. But we need to do better at, stop shaming people, stop making them feel less than, and that they sum, and the worthy word, quit calling people unworthy.

Yeah, that's no different than what Chad did. Right. That's dehumanizing. It is. I agree with that. I have always a proponent of you can understand someone without agreeing with them. Absolutely. And I think we all owe each other more understanding.

Yeah. You know, and I think I really have a bit of idea of understanding you too today. Yeah. So that's my story. I appreciate you letting me express those things on your channel. I'm really... I think a lot of people are wondering. I don't know if you know that, but, you know, those that don't follow the cases closely

might not know who you are. But those that are following it closely and happen, and there are quite a few of us. I think they know who you are, and I think they've been curious. You know, your public Facebook posts have gotten out there, you know. And so, you know, to those that are in my neighborhood, that are in my ward, I don't hold any animosity toward anyone. I've done a lot of healing in that. And I just want people to know that I am happy.

I'm well. I wasn't for a while, but I am now. We have lots to go. Things will happen. I have a lot of healing to do. But I am doing exactly. I am where I am. I'm where I'm supposed to be.

And I'm happy. I'm good. Matt and I are happy. I guess I want to say this too. are a very loved person in the Rexburg area as someone that has and does communicate with many people in the Rexburg area as a journalist and people love to say who they know and they'll know you and their LDS. They, those that know you've left.

That's what I'm saying. I have talked to many of your friends. They adore you. They love you. It speaks to who you are. they get it. And I will say, I will say, I did have some, there's a cute girl in our ward that reaches out to me and she's just,

she's a doll. And I did say to her, I don't post what I do to, to like point fingers or it's just to have people maybe stop and think a little bit. And I personally, again, I've been pretty secluded for a while, But I personally have not been mistreated by anyone. Well, that's kind of you to say, because even I, after this interview, think you have.

I'm like, yeah, you have. But I think under, yeah, I think people, I do like to think people are doing the best they can with what they know. But that's fair. I do like to think that about people. And I have not directly been mistreated by anyone. Again, my state president will convey through my son, your mom's a great woman. I understand. You know, I've had nothing but kindness.

But I am in a lot of groups, and I do have a lot of friends that have left, that that is not how they have been treated. How sad. That's why I post what I do. There are some very devastating stories of people who have left, particularly in the LGBTQ community. I've seen the judgments of people online. I know that's real. It is very real.

And I do think the reason I have been treated well is because, Because people in my circle, they know me. I wouldn't leave if I didn't have a really good reason. And they know that. So, you know, same with my son. They know my son. They know what a great kid he is. So there's more of this than just COVID hit.

We didn't feel like going to church. Really, really deep. Lots of thought. Lots of. There's a lot to this. So I do know that there are people in Rexburg who might be struggling in the same way. And anyone can reach out to me that might need some support because that's the place I'm in now. There are people who can be helpful.

And I'm grateful for the new friends that I've made that have been that support to me. And I'm in a place that I could be that support to someone else. So I'm not going to tell you to leave the church. I'm not going to tell you to what you should or shouldn't do. But I surely understand and can I give really good hugs. This is going back again. But you told me a story. And if we have a moment, I feel like it's an important one.

I shared it on Mormon stories that you at this time were going through this terrible family tragedy, this absolute trauma. And you mentioned that the church wasn't bringing it up. I don't even know the exact timing,

but it was right when everything was happening with Chad. I don't know if it was before, after the children were found. But Rexberg was receiving a visit from two apostles. It was Deeter Udorf, who came, it was a regional meeting for state presidents,

anyone in state and bishops as well. So Relief Society presidents, bishops, Relief Society, State Relief Society, State Presidents. I've tried to remember. It seems to me that it was before kids were found. Maybe Lori was arrested. I don't remember for sure. And all of my notes and things that I took from that,

I've thrown away. So I can't tell you for sure. But my, because Uqdor, one of the 12 apostles was my very favorite. I connected with him the most. I loved his talks. So I was certain that one of his reasons in coming to our area was to address this issue. And I didn't say anything, but I even thought, you know what,

maybe my state president will hook me up. And I can talk to him for a minute. Yeah. You're going through this absolute trauma. you're trying hard to breathe. You know, you need something. You're looking for a lifeline. Yeah.

An acknowledgement of what's happening, not just to me, but this whole community. This was devastating for the community. I've received letters from people saying that they hoped that he would come forward. So when he started his talk, it was the same old talk about missionary work. It was about missionary work. And I even, so he opened it up to questions and answers. And, you know, someone could get up and ask a question. Some woman in there asked the question about women in the priesthood.

And I don't remember the exact question, but it was referencing, you know, how should women feel about, you know, women and priesthood? It was that kind of question. and he did what they so often do is he referred it out. He said, bishops, anyone want to answer that? You didn't answer it. Someone said something. And I thought, you know what?

I'm a steak relief state president. I'm going to make a comment. So I can directly talk to him. He can see me because you had to introduce yourself. So he stood up. I said, I'm Heather Daybell, stake relief society president in the Henry Spork steak, and I proceeded to give my opinion.

And I hate what I said it. I hate what I said. I basically thanked the brethren for kind of redirecting things and that women have authority, priesthood authority in their callings that's given to them through, you know, the stake president or whatever. I'm so grateful to the brother.

for clarifying that. He hated that answer. But I wanted him to see me. I wanted him to, I'm sitting right here. Everyone in that room knew who Chad Daybell was. When I stood up and said, I'm Heather Daybell, they knew who I was.

Yes. So the meeting ends. We all stand up as he walks away. And they did say he's going to visit one ward while he's here tomorrow. I thought for sure our ward for sure. No, he visited a plain award out in the country, visited a different ward. And then I saw later a picture of him with our state president and his wife. And I remember, and Matt says, I remember you saying this, Heather, when I got home from that meeting, I was so deflated. And I said, Matt, he didn't say anything. I didn't, I thought maybe

I would be someone he would talk to. Nothing. My state president got a picture with him. I didn't even, I didn't, nothing. I was so deflated. And at that time, still believing. And, but it was just one of those things like, why are they not addressing this? Right.

Why are they not saying anything? As you've pointed out, Rexberg was grabbing hold. Right. And, right. And Chad would say to me, Heather, they know what I'm doing. They know what I'm doing. And they don't say anything. So that was one of those things.

I think, gosh, if an apostle would have like come themselves and said, Chad, this, you're off track or something. You know what? I actually think this was before the kids were found. I don't know if you agree, but I think it was because I remember thinking, if they said something, Chad, tell us where the children are. What do you have listened? If it's, if they also, you know, for me, it does make me angry too because, you know, when Elizabeth Smart went missing, she was from my neighborhood where I grew up. And, you know, our church became the headquarters for daily press conferences. The lawn became the place to speak up and ask where Elizabeth was.

and I know that her parents received blessings from apostles and prophets of comfort. Here's Tiley, same age, a couple years older. Elizabeth was 14 when she was missing. Here's Tiley is a member of a church. Like, where are the shepherds watching the sheep? Like, you know what I mean? Like, if she is our flock, like there's no excuse. She was a young woman.

She was in the young woman's program. She was. She went every week. She was devout. Yeah. And nothing. Right. Nothing. So that's when I, you know, and again with everything that happened with the local leaders and just the no, not, you know, not being believed. And I just thought, you know what, I don't, I don't think this discernment thing is real. And I, it really made me feel like they really just don't care. their public relations and how they appear to the world is more important to them than at least how our family was doing. Yeah. And our community was doing.

Yeah. Clearly there were people moving to Rexberg for him. Does this belief system of his or part of his belief system or whatever it is, I don't even know how you define it. Is it a cold? Is it a belief system? Is it a religion? I don't even know. is that still alive and well in Rexburg?

For me to be able to live there, I tell myself no. But there is a man on social media, and I can't think of his name. He was talked about in your interview with... Suzanne? No, she didn't use her name. She had been with a bow. She fired... Oh, I know who you're talking about.

Anna. Yes. She talked about him. I don't know him personally, but he did make some claim on social media that he was taking Chad's place. Oh, Joel Gervine? Yes.

That's the only thing I've heard as far as like Chad's particular stuff. But then I have been told that this church of the firstborn, which is what Chad called it, that, you know, the LDS mainstream LDIS church was kind of a catalyst to, the Church of the Firstborn and that Chad, I mean, it's on, it's online. If you look at the Patriot of a blessing that he gave Alex Cox, he, you know, he's saying he has authority as the Church of the Firstborn. Church of the Firstborn. It's real. I have been told that that, whatever that means, I don't know what all that entails, this Church of Firstborn, but that it's in, you know, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Oklahoma, that it's far reaching.

And that is one thing I have been told is that when they say you guys know this much and there's this much, part of that is in regards to how many people are in this belief system. Now, Chad being the leader of that, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, you don't know if, right, it's other people. I don't have any idea. And the Julie Roe phenomenon in Rexberg, and you mentioned you had friends that were like, oh, you should read this. are they still into her or has she lost some clout? I'd like to think, and this is what Matt will say too, is that once those kids were found, I think for most people that gave any of that the time of day, could see, oh, this was really bad and stepped away.

But again, I don't, I don't even, I'm not even in an LDS. So I don't know how many believed in this stuff. I don't know how many continue to believe in this stuff. One problem that the church will always have mainstream church is that when you claim personal revelation, just like Joseph Smith did, that God came to him, and you can create a church out of that,

look at the FLDS, Warren Jeffs, look at the AUB, look at the Kingston group. They're all just people saying, no, I got revelation. I should be, it's exactly what Chad did, that there are hundreds of offshoots of the LDS church.

So it will continue, especially when you're someone who does learn about the original teachings of Joseph Smith and polygamy and all those things. Like, for instance, the FLDS Church is way, closer to what Joseph Smith restored than what the mainstream LDS Church is today.

It's morphed into something that's not the same. And so when people find that out and you kind of wake up to, you know, I was always taught the polygamous people were weirdos and, you know, look down on them and how dare they. They're actually following what Joseph Smith did much, much closer than the mainstream LDAS church. So my perception of all of that is completely changed. And there's some really good YouTube channels growing up in polygamy. That one's interesting because Sam, the husband, was raised FLDS, left around 18, joined the LDS church, marries his wife, Melissa, and they have both left the mainstream LDS church. So they're interesting to listen to.

you know, a girl that left the Kingston group. There's just when I hear all these different perspectives, all offshoots of Joseph Smith, that's where I say, you shall know them by their fruits. There's a lot of abuse. There's a lot of, with polygamy, and there's been a lot going on.

I want to throw out too, for those interested, two interviews that we've done that I think are important to this. Dr. Christine, her story of, meeting an abuser who convinced her he was a prophet of sorts and she does a lot of work now with the FLDS church and Anna LeBaron is also on our channel. I have her book here. Her book is amazing. Those are two, I think, good examples of how that abuse. And I consider that some of the research that I've done when I'm reading those different experiences and those offshoots. Again, when they all go back, when Warren Jeff goes back to, well, this is, I'm doing what Joseph Smith did.

And I'm sorry. I just, I know that the mainstream LDS church, they do a lot of good things. We've seen, you know, we participated as church service missionaries. We've seen work that's done. As of I, you know. I won't deny that. But, and this is one thing that Matt and I don't agree on, is the mass. of amount of money that the church does have in comparison to what they do put into humanitarian

efforts is silly that's so much money and there's so much more that could be done and and they've upped it a little they've upped it because we all know now that they're a multi-billion dollar church and so there's just there's they do good but until they stop hurting the else LGBTQ community and they stop putting men above women, regardless of the words they say, they put men above women, they're hurting people. They've hurt me. They hurt my son. And I can't support that anymore.

So if, you know, Chad was put in front of you one more time. if you saw him one more time, what would you want to say to him? That's a really good question. Because, again, it's, like I mentioned earlier, some things have changed for me now that I have a broader understanding. I still would cause a storm at him. I have all kinds of things I call him. But one thing I would say is, is that, and I do believe this, that Chad learned,

because he was a big reader in history, and he knew that stuff. In his mind, I think he took it in a direction that he thought he was saving something that had gone awry in the mainstream LDS Church. Kind of the same things I discovered. In his line of thinking, he was going to be a leader of making, making it better and creating something that would bring in Jesus's coming or whatever, where it was something that I just concluded this was none of this was true, so I'm done. I can give him that grace, that I don't know what that did to him.

I know it devastated me. I don't know what that did to him. It messes with you when everything you've based everything on, your, entire life, your identity, your eternal life, when you put everything into a church like that, and then discover the things that I discovered, it throws you into a tailspin because that was your identity. That was, you had all the answers. And then you don't. So that's the only grace that I can give him that in his mind, he needs.

he needed to become a leader of something new and get it all on track. Otherwise, I've envisioned it a lot of times. I'd just punch him in the face. Say you sorry, son of the bitch. Do you know how many people you've hurt? You know, you've destroyed lives.

It would be energy wasted because I don't think he thinks he has. I don't think he thinks he has. I'm still in, uh, still locked up leaving. I hope that in the very most inner part of his brain, that's Chad, the Chad that Matt grew up with, the brother that he loved, that he has somewhere tucked away in there, I really screwed that a lot of people.

I, Tammy's not here anymore. I've hurt my children. I've hurt my grandchildren. I've hurt my mom and my dad. I hope there's somewhere in his brain. that he has those thoughts, that there's something redeeming about him, but I don't

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