Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL EXCLUSIVE: Heather Daybell, Chad Daybell's "Dark" Sister-in-Law, Breaks Her Silence (PART TWO)

Episode Date: November 30, 2022

Welcome to our dinner table. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  Subscribe to our YouTube, @Hidden True Crime, for additional insider interviews and an in depth psychological podcast covering the Chad Daybell case. This is the first episode of a three-part tell-all interview you will not want to miss. In our opinion--the most detailed interview to date. Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell's "dark" sister-in-law. She sat down with Lauren and John Matthias at their dinner table for 5 hours, and shared her experience.  Watch Part Two of Heather Daybell's Interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0iMs019-Q4 Chad Daybell is behind bars along with his wife Lori Vallow Daybell. They are the subjects of the Netflix Documentary "Sins of Our Mother" that our host Dr. John Matthias was featured. We've also been featured on Dateline's covering of this case. Chad and Lori are charged with murdering their spouses, and Lori's two children--Tylee Ryan and JJ Vallow. They await trial in 2023. Each night this weekend at 6 pm pacific we will premiere an episode of Heather's interview. Episode 1- Friday, Saturday, and Sunday at 6 pm pacific (7 MST, 8 Central, 9 Eastern).  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ INTERESTED IN ADVERTISING?: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. So there's a picture that they use of Chad and Tammy in Midway, Utah. He's got his arm around her. That was the last family get together we had.

So you were there? I was there. We were all there. We were all there. That was, I think that was to celebrate Matt's mom's birthday, because that was June. That was June, 2019. Tammy was kind of AWOL, that like she,

We had a big lu-out dinner that she didn't come to. She was asleep in the room. I did notice when I saw her at church, she was head down. And I thought she's going through one of her depressive episodes is what I thought. At church, they weren't sitting where they normally sat. Chad started sitting in the very back. We sat more in the front. I did have ward members tell me, did you notice Tammy was not sitting by Chad anymore at church?

I had not noticed that because that he was back there. And I tried not to look at that guy if I didn't have to. So anyway, I could see that she wasn't doing well, the little that I did see her. So at this family event, she didn't go to that dinner. She, and Chad kept himself apart. He was not mingling with us. He was kind of over there at this dinner. I do remember, I was talking about, I was getting on a family history trip with my daughter back east. We were talking about it out, like with Paul and his wife, Emily.

Chad was listening and said, you're going on a family history trip? Just you and Maggie? And I said, yep. Does it? So that's June. August, and I have video of this, it was when my son, Isaac, was coming home from his mission. And we had a party.

This is homecoming. We had a party. It was on Chad's birthday. And because I called Chad and said, hey, we're doing this get together. I know it's your birthday. If you don't want to come, I get it. Well, we'll be there. And we did do a little Eagle Scout thing for my younger two boys both got their Eagle Scouts.

We kind of combined the whole thing. I have video of Chad and Tammy on his birthday. So this is August 2019. So just a few months, a couple months. Charles is already dead. Charles is already dead. There's an affair happening. Yeah, he died July 11th, 2019.

An affair is happening with Chad and Lori. This is before Tammy's died. So this is August 11th, Chad's birthday. day, month after Charles has been shot. Wow. Okay. Chad's sitting there next to his dad. Here's Tammy.

She's not making eye contact with anybody. She's very quiet. Garth and Emma are there. Everyone else seems to be fine. Chad's fine. They sing happy birthday to Chad. And so that's the last interaction that I really, you know, where Chad's, we're all together as a family.

Um, so it, it's so crazy to me that just weeks after he's sitting on my back deck that Tyley's murdered. Then JJ. My next door neighbor dies week after you find out when Tyley or JJ, just that's weird. Um, and then Tammy. So then she shot at, you know, I wasn't on Facebook at the time. Didn't know that had happened until later some, my daughter. someone said, mom, did you know what happened to Tammy?

And I said, I had no idea. So I read her Facebook post. Then we're in Vegas and we get this call it. Tammy's gone. And I called him. It was very unsettled. Went to the funeral. I'm standing at the viewing.

I'm standing next to Matt's mom looking at Tammy. And I said, Sheila, my brain is not going to let this go. What happened to her? And Sheila said, all I know is that Emma said she had pink foam. coming out of the mouth. So we do the funeral. We buzz home. We go to the memorial. No one in the family came to the memorial because they'd just done the funeral, but we live in the area, so we went to the memorial. All of this praise and all of this stuff about Tammy, and that's when I went to that, that's not how we knew. And my son's saying, yeah, she never spoke to me

once. It just, that was hard. It was, I was sad. I was confused. And it was interesting. There were a few people there. I thought I'm getting death glares here. Why? I'm feeling uncomfortable here. As in people were seeing you and not liking you. Yeah.

And I don't know if I just was creating that or, but that's how I felt. So times going on. I'm in the meantime, I, Matt and I are, I'm just like, I am not okay.

I know I'm sad over Tammy, but I'm not okay. And then I get a phone call. This is three weeks after Tammy's gone. I get a phone call from our Relief Society president who is tight with Chad and Tammy. And she said, do you have a minute? And I said, yeah. And she said, I need to talk to you about Chad. And my first thing I said, does he have a girlfriend?

And she said, Heather, he's married. I lost it. And he killed her. He killed her. I knew it. And she's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. That no, that's not what I'm saying.

But I'm really upset. He brought her to my house. He was introducing her to people. I introduced her to the kids. After the memorial. They went to Lori's, yeah, her town home. So I'm hysterical. And she said, I don't think your in-laws know.

I don't think Chad's parents know. So, and I have some strong opinions about this Relief Society president, and I won't go into that. But I called Matt. Matt was in South America at the time. He and I have been church service. missionaries for the church in their wheelchair initiative where we and this is mainly Matt's thing I would go when I could because 10 years my kids were a little um Matt was in

South America he was in Paraguay I called them and I said you need to sit down and I said Chad's married it was like Matt was standing it was the feeling that we I said Matt he did it He did something to her. He's like, oh, gosh, I got to call my parents. So he called his mom. His dad wasn't home. And he said, Mom, Chad's married. Did you know this?

And she said, we just got home from meeting her. Chad had called his parents. They were down in Capitol Reef. They go down there a lot. they were on a getaway. They, Chad said to his mom and dad, I've met someone that I want you to meet because I think I'm going to marry her.

White one. I think I'm going to marry her. So they get in their car and they buzz up to Rexburg. I had no idea they'd be there. And Chad introduced Lori to his mom and dad and said, oh, I already did marry her. they're married and he said specifically don't tell heather don't tell he don't tell heather don't talk to Heather and Matt about this don't tell

heather so Matt's mom was very tight-lipped and said i'm not i can't say anything let me wait till your dad gets home and matt was pissed and he said you tell me what is going on this is my brother what's going on and she said i i cannot hear talk about this till you dad it's her. And then this is, she turned it and said, let's talk about your imperfect wife. And proceeded to go through every, from the last 20 years, she brought up all kinds of things about me. That was her response to Chad getting married? Taring, completely tearing me down to my husband. And Matt kept saying, you were talking about my wife. This is my wife. And Matt said,

So he said, ultimately, he said, I ended up hanging up on my mom. He called me, and I could hear it his, he said, I just had the worst conversation I have ever had. He was devastated. And he said, I'm not going to tell you the things that she said. And I said, why is this even about me? What? This isn't about me. We're trying to figure out what the heck Chad did.

Why? Who is he married to? And he said, my brain's not functioning right now. I don't know what just happened. So. And the crazy thing is, oh, I skipped this. So at the memorial for Tammy and Rexberg, Chad came up to us after. And he said, I can't stay in that house where Tammy died.

I can't sleep in that bed. I've got a friend in town. going to move in with. And Seth is standing there and he said, yeah, we're going to move into the house because our apartment's haunted. And they went, what? Wait. And he said, yeah, there's noises.

So that just shows you what they've grown up with, that there's lots of stuff with spirits and demons and below it. So I was like, okay. And I said, I can see that if, you know, it's hard to be at the house. He moves out. A couple days after that, we're told he's left for Hawaii. So when you say he moved out, do you think he moved into Lori's? He moved, it was Lori's.

Yes, we did get told after by a friend because it was Lori's place he had moved into. Never mind that in November when the police showed up and talked to Chad, he said he didn't know Lori. Yeah, that's who he did. He barely knew her. So he tells us, I'm moving out. I can't be in the house. And then just days after that, he's left for Hawaii. I had a conversation with Matt's mom after he left for Hawaii.

And it was a good conversation. It was, and she said, he should be home comforting his children. Why is he in Hawaii? And Chad had told this story to his parents that there was a guy out there, and he actually used the name of the guy that did their wedding. whoever that guy was, he who's that guy's name telling us he was the one that had called Chad and said, I want you to write my family history. Can you come do that? And that was his story is why he went to Hawaii. That's sort of his go-to lie because that letter written to Charles

Valo was about, hey, Lori, can you? I'm a baseball player. Can you write my book for me? That was the same Whether Lori wrote it or Chad, I don't know if we know, but maybe you know, but it was clearly, I think, I think that was created my chat. Yeah, my understanding that that was that Lori wrote that and sent that to chat. So he's in Hawaii. And that's the last conversation I had with Matt's mom about it was she said he should be home with his kids. Yeah, he should. So that, I mean, not even a week later, I get this phone call from the Relief Society president that he's married. And he had gone at least three or four different people's houses to introduce or that I know of.

And this Relief Study President was one. And she said, Heather, she's beautiful. She's, I don't get what's going on here. You know, kind of indicating how. Right. How did this work out? And so anyway, that happens. And in that conversation, that woman told me, Heather, an investigation's been started.

That there are people at the elementary school that Tammy worked at. They are concerned. So they've called police. And I said, thank God. Someone's called the police because I said, I wanted to. But I didn't have anything to tell them other than I have a bad feeling about this. So anyway, Matt calls his mom. It does not go well.

Matt's devastated. More in how his mom responded. It was just like, why did that turn like that? So Matt comes home and, or no, no, before Matt came home, I said to Matt, I'm going to text those kids. I'm going to text Chad's kids. Because in the conversation I had with that relief study president, I understood. that the kids knew that there was an investigation that had been started, that they were devastated by their dad getting remarried

and that this was looking not good. It's how I understood what was going on. So I text, I did a group text to the four kids, because Mark was on his mission, he wasn't home. In South Africa, he did not come home for the funeral he chose not to. And he didn't have time to get home. Yeah. So I text them just, you know, I've just been told that your dad's remarried.

You have every right to be upset about that. And then an investigation's been opened. I am here. If I can do anything for you, I'm here. It was trying to let them know they had some family there that could help. Support. Support. Immediately.

All five or four of those kids. Garth was, what the hell? It was lashing back at me. I am confused as confused. What is going on? These guys are okay. They are not upset. They are not upset.

They have to be upset. What's going on? Not five minutes later, my phone rings and his chat. So I answer, he's like, hey, Heather, how are you? And I said, I'm not good. He said, yeah, you've been a problem for me. me my whole life. And I said, I've been a problem for you, your whole life. What? Doesn't make sense. What are you talking about? He said, you just stir the pot. You're just creating

problems. That's something I'd been told by Matt's dad. I stir the pot because I'm asking questions about Julie Roe and what he's been to. I finally got told you're stirring the pot, leaving along. So I said, Chad, who's this person you've married? So her name's Lori, L-O-R-I. Crap, how her name is spelled. He really did spell it. He did. He spelled out her name.

And he said, she's amazing. Do you want to meet her? And I said, I do not want to meet her. You don't come to my house. And I said, what happened to? Tammy, Chad, what happened? And, well, she had pulmonary embolism. Are you the biggest massive idiot on the planet? You not three weeks ago told me a completely different story. Now it's a pulmonary embolism because she's gained 40 pounds. He says she gained 40 pounds. Do you even

know how the body works? Then you should have died of a pulmonary embolism years ago, Chad, fat ass. So that's that's what. what his explanation was. She died of a form of symbolism. And so I, it just, I was, I didn't even know what to say to him. I said, Chad, I understand there. And he said, why are you telling my kids?

There's an investigation. I said, because there is and there should be. And he said, well, he said other, I should have written it down. I didn't. But he ultimately said, well, I move into Hawaii. with Lori, you can forget about me. You don't have to think about me again.

And this is the one thing I've been wrong in. I was wrong in this. I said to him, that will be easily done. That was wrong. So hung up with him. As if, by the way, just running away to Hawaii is going to solve all his problems. Yeah. Like they have such a simplistic view.

Like if you just avoid it, if you just avoid these unpleasant facts or you know, the reality of the situation, then somehow it'll just disappear. That's true. It's almost like he really believed that. He did. He's like, you don't have to worry about me anymore. I'll be in Hawaii. I'm like, still dead wife. Right. Investigation. Right. Exactly. You didn't know that there were dead children. I had no clue of children yet. No clue.

And also that you see that when when Lori's arrested and they have some of those initial hearings for Lori and Chad's not arrested. He's still free and he's sitting behind her. Like he really thinks at some level or he acts as if he didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. Right? Like he's, and then when he's arrested,

he doesn't understand why he's in jail. And we've been told from people, various people, that he really is sitting in jail flabbergasted. That's why he's there. Right. We've been told that too. Yeah.

He doesn't understand it. I think part of that is that, even though he was involved in this, even though it was a conspirator, because he probably didn't get his hands dirty. I mean, he might have. Like, I'm not convinced that he didn't with Tiley. Certainly, after she was dead, we know he had some involvement in burying her for sure. But I think he literally thinks, let's say Alex Cox killed all the folks, all these people, because he didn't kill them. I think in his mind's eye, he didn't do it. Like, how can you get me on murder when Alex did it?

I mean, even though I told him to. I do believe that. I think, and I really don't, that's where I'm saying. I don't think he's a super intelligent person because I really do believe that. If he didn't do the actual killing, you couldn't find fault. He didn't do it. You know, I've seen so many videos of Chad. Not only have I seen them and listened, I've been editing them.

Like, I have gotten more of Chad and his kids. characteristics than I've ever wanted to get. You know, I've spent listening to him for hours. There is something very simplistic and kind of confusing for me about Chad still. I think if you were to meet Paul, Brad, Chad's, they, Chad's different. He is different. He is different. He isn't, you know, Paul's very outgoing and very easy to talk to and that, Chad's, I've always said, even, you know, the issues that, I'm just remembering something, when I was at the funeral afterwards, I'm in relief society mode, I'm cleaning up, I'm vacuuming, all that stuff. We're all standing in the hall. And Becky and Brad, the two youngest siblings who have had

some issues, were talking to Chad. And Brad was just seeing something to the effect of, you know, You know, we've had our problems and we love you, we want to support you. Chad hugs those two, and I hear him say, no judgment here. I thought that was weird because that's all Chad did, was judged them. I judged them. I mean, I was very judgmental of Matt's younger siblings. I have a bigger understanding now, and I feel completely different. But that stood out to me when he said, no judgment.

here. What? Well, and also, you might have to take this out, but from our conversation in the fall of 2020, when we first talked, there was

a discussion about how family we get together for various reunions or hunting trips or whatever. And Chad frequently would

never ask questions about how other people were different. Oh, never. Never. He never, like he had never had no empathy, right? And then there's, there was specifically a story that Matt told, I don't know if this, we can use this, but we haven't used it. We haven't used it. We'll ask you. But they were in the hot tub and they hadn't seen each other for a few years. And all the brothers were in the hot tub. And this was probably, this was getting close to one all this was starting to happen. And the brothers are all catching up and talking about how they're doing.

And Chad had no interest whatsoever and how they were doing or what they were doing. And he was just in his own world. And I think that, I love that story because to me that describes Chad Debo. He's in his own, he lives in a fantasy world he's created and he doesn't care about even his own brother. That's absolutely true. I think Matt would be totally fine with you sharing that because that is something he and I have commented on many times is that when Chad would, when we would see him, it was all about his books. That's all he talked about. Here, Matt's got a business. Matt never. Hey, how are things going for you? How's your business? Never. It's like he didn't even know that should be a thing. So that's, that was. There's some insecurity. You know, in his autobiography, he talks about how

I do want to talk about all the other siblings have master's degrees and he doesn't and then he prayed on it. Remember that? And he, he. That was a dig. In that book, that was a dig at Matt. I absolutely believe that. Specifically at Matt?

Yes. Because, so I do, I wanted to, I did ask Matt, are you okay if I share this story? On our property, we planted Matt's little, he wanted a little apple orchard. So there's as one day as Matt's planting those trees, Chad came over, which was rare. Chad never came to our house. Okay. That's interesting. He lives right by you guys.

He lives right by us. Our property is supposedly supposed to be this important thing in his whole scheme of things, but never came over. I think we had him over for a family home evening. We invited them over. but he never just showed up at the house. But he came and he had his autobiography. It was not it printed yet. It was just like in a binder.

He wanted Matt to read it. Matt's planting these apple trees. And he said, Chad, I'm not going to read it. I'm just going to read it. I'm just going to be honest with you. He's like I just, so when would this have been? Right before that autobiography came out. I don't know what that was.

It was 2018. Well, 17, 18. It was definitely after he moved to Rexburg. Yeah. I believe the first printing would have been, it was either 17 or 18. It might have been 18. Yeah, that sounds right.

He, because it was almost like he wrote that he wanted Matt to know his story. And Matt wasn't interested. And he said to chat, because at this point, I mean, the earthquake never happened. of this stuff happened. Matt was like, this is nonsense. So Matt, as he's planting these trees,

he said to Chad, Chad, I'm planting these apple trees, fully intending to eat apples off of them years and years from now. And Chad said, so am I. You don't even know which side of your mouth you're talking out of anymore. It just, so yeah, he would just say what people wanted to hear. He knew Matt didn't want to read the book, but I'm standing there. And I said, Chad, I'll read your book. I was like, oh, I was not the intended audience, but I said, give it to me and I'll read it. It took me all of four hours to get through that thing. It was unpleasant. But what stood out to me was what you just said.

You know, I had this crossroads and I, you know, I had even gone and I was getting my masters and but decided, you know, he says in the book, if he goes the master's route, then he knew he'd end up with a great big home. He'd have a lot of money. It was like he was describing Matt. Matt's life. And he said, or I could write these books. And that's the direction he took. And be more spiritual.

Right. And be more spiritual. I have had multiple people tell me. that he was very jealous of Matt. And apparently, or maybe some of the other siblings as well. Yeah, because they all, you know, Brad, Brad's an occupational therapist, not Brad. Paul is an occupational therapist like Matt. They're in the same profession.

Brad went to law school, became an attorney. So I think that really, really bothered, Chad. Yeah. But the way he described, you know, because Matt and I have built. with a lot of hard work, have built this home that is our dream home. We flipped houses. We have a beautiful home. And chat in a couple instances made a point of that's the worldly way of doing things.

He's kept, and he specifically said this, we've kept, we've always liked the smaller, you know, older home. I don't care what you live in. Just don't judge me because of what I live in. It just, I always, he just was very judgmental of everyone. Although I have to point this out, but John and I have brought up how some, how Chad mentioned to somebody that his new wife was hot and loaded. That was said to us as well. Like, the phone, the person he said that to called us and said, this is what Chad has said to me. Clearly he liked money in other words.

That she's hot and she's loaded. Yeah. Right, which again is a contradiction from the so-called spiritual path that he was taking. Yeah, correct. So anyway, that's the apple orchard story where Matt was like, I'm going to eat these apples once they're all trees are growing. But Chad agreed, yeah, I will too. That's not what you're seeing in the stupid book. You're trying to get him to read.

Right. That's not what he's telling everyone. It's not, right. So I took the book and I read it, and then I took it to Chad's house. said, Matt, we'll never read this. Doesn't want to. I read it. There you go.

I think he was just, it was kind of his last stitch effort in trying to get us to see his bigger purpose. Yeah. It just, we didn't agree. And to get some kudos. I think he wanted validation. Yeah. And attention, I'm sure.

Yeah. So anyway, that's that. But so Tammy's died. go to the funeral, the memorial, awful conversation with Matt's mom that Matt has. So Lori, so we get a call from law enforcement saying... When is this? This is... So we took our boys on a vacation to New York City to go see our son's mission. That was Christmas time, 2019.

We get a call right before our trip. So this is a few weeks before it. So that was November. We get this call from law enforcement, just so you know, here's what we can tell you. There are missing children. And I, like, wait, because Matt and I, when Chad said to me, his wife's name was Lori,

how did I get this? Because I knew to look up Lori Valo. I don't know, I don't remember if he said Valo or if someone else did. it may have been that release study. I don't remember, but I Googled Lori Vallow. And I didn't know at the time Matt was doing the same thing. I called Matt and I said, Matt, there's a Lori Vallow from Arizona whose husband was just shot and killed by her brother. This cannot be the same person.

And Matt said, I just saw that too. I'm kind of freaking out. So then, so we're like, what is happening? We get a call from law enforcement saying, just so. you're aware because you're in this family and this is such close proximity to you. This is hitting the news and it's going to hit nationally. There are two missing children. She has two children.

We get told Tiley and JJ, their ages. And we're asked, do you know anything about them? We don't even know who this woman is. I know we don't know anything. So they just weren't giving us the heads up. just so you know this is going to be big. It's bad. And it's a lot more involved than just what you know right now. We've been told that over and over. Here's what you know. Here's what's happening. So we go on our trip. We're sitting in the hotel lobby, ABC News.

There's a picture of Lori. And I'm in New York City. And I said, this is bad, this is bad. They weren't lying. It's going to be bad. We get back home and then it's all, you know, where are the kids? Where are the kids? Matt gets a call. And I don't know what month this was. It's before Lori's arrested. Our office manager called Matt and said, hey, I just got a call from a Larry Woodcock. He would really like to talk to you. I think you want to take this call. So Matt did. He called Larry and Larry just such a nice man and just said, thank you, thank you, thank you for talking to me. They are a wits end. They just, no one's helping.

Like, nobody's saying anything. Nobody's helping that knows anything. He just said, what do you know? And Matt's like, I don't know anything other than my sister-in-law just died. And now he's remarried to this woman that we don't know what's going on. We actually met with Larry and Kay at their hotel and had to talk with them. And they told us a little bit about worry. And so that was super informative.

They gave us some information as far as this is when we get introduced to the light and dark and the rating of people. And they show us some of these documents of President Nelson used to be this. person in a past light. And I, my mind was so blown because it was so much deeper and bigger than what I thought than what Matt thought and that he had rated what stood out the most to me is that he had rated Tiley like four point something D. And I could see that was bad. That was meant she was dark.

I scanned quickly for my own name. I didn't see it. I did see where he's saying who Joe Murray, Emma's husband used to be. And he, you know, there was a few, and he rated these people and church leaders that he's, here's who they used to be. And that's when I first see James and Elena. Very good reading of their love story, by the way. I'm disgusting. That love story is so important to this case, by the way.

You heard me read it to John. I couldn't listen to the whole thing. Yeah. It honestly makes me physically. It triggers you. It physically makes me sick. These are your loved ones. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway. We have a little distance so we can, yeah. We can be a little more playful with it. The Loin fire thing, though. We do have to just laugh. The loin fire. It's a scientific.

It's a scientific phenomenon, Heather. You know that. I know that. Lauren knows that. Everyone knows that. It's so weird. Then we've got Dateline and we've got reporters on our front porch. And I had to get security in my house.

And in the meantime, at church. I know COVID was devastating. It was a blessing for our family because we get home from New York. It's just weeks that everything shut down. So we didn't have to see people. We were, you know, in our home, didn't have to see anyone. But what I'm hearing through the great Ryan and different people is that our ward members are very split. And I'm involved somehow.

There's Chad supporters. and there's Heather supporters, and there weren't many Heather supporters. And I'm like, what did I? I haven't done anything. What did I do? I saw early on. I jumped on some Facebook groups. It was a pandemic.

I had a new child. I just quit reporting. And I still have screenshots of your neighbors. There were Chad's neighbors saying, I believe Chad. I believe Chad. And just firmly, I've talked to. Chad, I believe him. So I know, I know what you're talking about. So what Chad was doing, once they, once they had Lori and, you know, they come back to Idaho and Chad's just living at the

house, we were, we were fearful. And Matt did ask law enforcement, do I need to get Heather out of here? And they said, we're listening to everything. If we get concerned, let you know. So when Alex Cox ends up dead, that's when we could kind of breathe a little easier because it was early on very apparent to us that that's who we needed to be afraid of actually doing anything. That that's who was doing the killings. And so once, so, you know, and Tammy gets exhumed, Alex Cox dies. I'm thinking I should be right in my own freaking book. this is I can't even dream this up. I'm hearing that there are ward members upset at me because Chad was telling his kids,

was telling anyone who would listen, that I was accusing him of killing Tammy, that I had started the investigation that I had called the police, which none of that was true. There was already an investigation going on because of Charles' death. following kids missing. Tammy, you know, K calling police, all that stuff. That was already in process. Before I even knew anything was going. There was a Reddit post by who we believe is Emma. I'm sure you've seen it that she says her mom's body was exhumed. And she's writing anonymously, but it's easy to figure out who it is and that it was started by her aunt. So is that you? I did I talked to Samantha Tammy's sister and she said Chad called us trying to convince us that you were doing this.

So and Samantha said I knew immediately that you weren't that you had not done this. Again, it's such an oversimplification. When you, when these two are, you know, when people were dropping dead left and right around Chad and Lori, at some point law enforcement is going to start asking questions. Right. So to blame it all on you or try to pin it on you. And I want to clarify this because I've seen online and stuff where people were, this is fishy. So my daughter, her father-in-law is Dave Hope. He was one of the detectives. We had no clue that he was in part of this. We assumed he probably knew about it because there's only so many detectives in Rexburg that he was in. investigating, he was investigating where the missing kids.

He was not investigating Tammy's death. So when he shows up to the junior high where Garth works and says, I want to ask you some questions about these kids, do you know anything? Well, in Garth, even text me and said, would you get the police to leave us alone? Because it's your daughter's, it's your daughter's father. Because he knows Maggie's last name was Hope, and he knew that they met at Maggie's wedding, So he knows that's who that is. It's connected to you.

But I, until we were told there were missing kids and this is all going to come out, he never said anything to us. He can't do that. He's, we didn't get any information from him. So that's where I think Chad took that from, you know, Dave coming to talk to Garth. And he just said, yep, Heather called the police. It was Dave that showed up. just not true.

As if it matters, who called the police. And that's the thing. Okay, there's an investigation. There's some bad stuff here. If I had had information, you bet. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing.

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She's a potter. You're the one that asked questions. Yeah. You ask questions. You were curious. Yeah. Which, by the way, is very much like Tiley. I think one of the reasons Tiley was... Yeah. She knew way too much, I believe. Yeah. She knew too much, but she also questioned the whole system and the whole belief system.

And I think Tiley was much too independent and much too independently minded. And she's very different from the little I've, you know, what I've seen of her in video and think she's very different than Chad's own children where they're not a talkbacker kind of kids. And they're just very quiet and compliant. They listen. They're compliant. Yeah, if he thinks Garth was a handful, I can't imagine a regular teenager like Tyley. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving.

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Discover your true age today. Hello, it is Ryan, and I was on a flight the other day playing one of my favorite social spin-slot games on Chumbah Casino.com. I looked over the person sitting next to me, and you know what they were doing? They were also playing Chumba Casino. Everybody's loving, having fun with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds of casinos. style games that you can play for free anytime, anywhere.

So sign up now at chumba casino.com to claim your free welcome bonus. That's chumba casino. And live the chumba life. Sponsored by Chumba Casino. Yeah, when I, I'm sorry, I have to say that here because, and I want to make it clear, I don't have a relationship with those children right now. Because initially they did believe their dad that I created this problem for them. I don't communicate with, they don't want to communicate with us.

The only time since all of this, our bishop called Matt and said, hey, Mark is giving a talk about his mission once Mark got home. So Matt said, let's go and just support Mark. I did not want to be there. But I went and Garth, after that meeting, Garth, we went up to say hello to them. Garth gave me a big hug. And I said, Garth, I want you to know that I love you and I have always loved you. And I am so sorry.

And he was very kind. And he said, we love you too. Seth wouldn't even look at me. Mark wouldn't talk to me. Emma, Garth was the only one. So when I hear Suzanne Freeman in her interview talk about, how Chad had said to her. I was so glad when Garth, I got on his mission, because he was our hardest kid, and I thought, oh, my home, he was your hard kid. He, he, he, he, he, he's a great kid.

And I have heard nothing but good things about Garth from the kids that have him as a teacher at the junior high. He is loved there. I am fearful for him in what he will choose to say under oath for his dad. I hope he doesn't, I hope he doesn't put himself at risk. And we have been told, that's a concern that he would, he would lie for his dad. I hope that doesn't happen. But they're good kids. They're good kids. The facts are so compelling, though, that it would be, if he does lie, I think it would be obvious, unfortunately. I do too. I hope he doesn't. I hope he doesn't. And I will say, I earlier mentioned, I believe that Garth was coerced into coming to Rexburg because, and I have that from different family sources, that he, he was at

UVU in Orem in Utah, living in an apartment, and he was doing well. He was happy there. His dad, again, this is through family members, that his dad told him that he had dark spirits or demons attached to him that he couldn't get rid of unless he moved to Rexberg. That's how that's how he got him to move. And that Garth was very upset about that, went and tried to get, you know, got a blessing from his grandpa Douglas and to help him be okay. And that kid moved to Rexburg.

And it messed up. He had to go to school even longer because he went to BYU, Idaho. And it messed up, you know, credits. And so I'm glad. I'm grateful that Garth is doing well, teaching what he wants to teach at the junior high. And he's married, he met his wife in Rexberg. He met his wife in Rexberg.

Emma met her husband in Rexberg. You know, they've, I think Rexberg has been good for them, despite their dad. So however they feel about me at this point, I think Emma kind of runs the show with those kids and I don't and Emma doesn't like me. I have had no idea how they felt about other than they were supporting their dad. That 2020 interview they did when they're trying to say their dad's been framed. I believe that's probably the defense that's kind of all you've got to, you know, for Chad's defense,

that he was framed by this seductress of a woman. who would do anything for him. So she still believes, she seems to still completely believe in his worldview. And yet she framed him somehow, I guess. Well, what do you think about that, though? I mean, and maybe I'm jumping ahead, but who do you think is a leader in this? Did Lori seduce him? Was this Chad?

So my opinion is that Chad offered her spiritually what she was looking for, and Lori provided him sexually, physically, what he was looking for because he was looking. So I think, and Larry and Kay and Matt and I, as we've talked, we all agree it was just the perfect storm. It was just because, because, I'm. that's all I can come up with because Chad is nothing, ew. Like he's, I'm being rude, but ooh, I mean, he's nothing attractive. So until she got her hands on him, slimmed him down and grew his hair out, he, all the names that he's been called, I'm like, uh-huh, yep, yep.

So I think that's all it could be, is that he, he built her up, you're a goddess, you're all these things. He just played into what she was looking for, and she was hot and loaded. And I do think he was, that's really his inner desires, despite his, you know, I'm going to keep myself poor because that'll keep me spiritually blind. So all that happens, in the meantime, when kids are still missing, I met with our bishop and just said, I just want to let you know this is going to get really bad. And the little that I know this is going to get really bad. And his response to me was, well, I'm trying to stay positive.

I felt completely, again, dismissed. Wow. You've told me that story before, and it always shocks me. And I said to him, I told your wife all of this stuff. And I know she told you. And he said, she did. He said, I just figured he didn't like him. And I said to him, why was he so believable?

And I wasn't. I've never, I'm a liar. That's a great question. I've been in your Relief Society Presidency. I'm a good person. I'm known for being a good person. So why would I do that? Why would I lie?

Why would I make stuff up about this person? If he was as upstanding as you thought, I would have nothing to say because I don't trash on people just for fun. I couldn't believe that that was the response I got at that point.

These kids were missing. What did he say for that? We're trying to stay positive. That Chad's, that this isn't real, that this is Chad's innocent. I mean, at that point, there were a lot of facts that we're starting to accumulate.

So I had that conversation. It was very, very disappointed in that conversation. It shocks me every time I hear it. I did have a conversation with our state president who again, and again, I don't not, I'm, these are good men. They got lied to. These are good men. Not very perceptive, I think, but they are good people. I did meet with our state president and talked about this.

he shared some things with me and I he was told to meet with Chad and Tammy when Julie Roe was being excommunicated. So I think that's why because I was in the state. I think Chad thought that the state president and I were talking more about this than we were. So he, you know, he just indicated, you know, Julie Roe was being excommunicated. I was asking Chad, are you involved in this? And he said, Chad flat out lied to me. but he said now I can see that. He said I didn't get any warm fuzzies around Chad, but I didn't get bad feelings.

And so in a conversation I had with a state president, I did say, where was your discernment? Two state presidents now, two bishops now. And you're the Stake Relief Society president. Let me remind people that you have a calling in the church that makes you a leader, a much bigger leader than Chad. So that is one thing I did say to him is you're supposed to all have this added measure of discernment when you're in these callings. That's what I was taught. And I don't see that.

I had more discernment than all of you. And I don't have the priesthood. So I have talked with the state president about that. And then... What do they say? Nothing. What can they say? They can't argue that.

They just look the truth in the face. So Lori gets arrested, you know, pans out, Chad. So the day, I only saw Chad once between when Lori was arrested and when he was arrested. and he was out in his yard. He looked awful. He looked awful. We hit June 2020. Matt's rent, we're working on our landscaping.

He's rented a pipe polar. We're trying to get landscaping sprinkling system in. We're outside working. My son, one of my sons was on his way to work that morning. He called me and he said, Mom, there are a lot of cars at Chad's house, police cars, black cars. There's a lot of people there. And I said, I said to, and even previous to that, I said to Matt, when Chad's trying to put a mobile home on his property at one point, that's when I said, Matt, I don't think these kids, you know, at this

point, they've got the last photo of Tiley and Yellowstone and all of that stuff. And people were speculating they could be buried oh my gosh they could have been anywhere and i said to matt he they're at his house and matt said chad's not that stupid and i said i think he is it makes sense because then he can watch he can he can you know keep guard he can they're right there under his nose and when he wanted to put the mobile home down that's what i said that's where they are and he wanted all his kids to live there. So when my son called and said, all these cars are there,

I said to Matt, they're going to find them. And then Kay called, or she texted. And she said, just letting you know, there's a search warrant. They're at the house. They have cadaver dog. I can genuinely say,

I've had some shitty things happen in my life. That's the worst day of my life. My son, my youngest son, so we're all just at the house, just it was awful. We can see the helicopter in the sky, Nadine's up in the sky. My youngest son has a friend who's working construction and someone that he was working with, his wife was a dispatch person and that person had called her husband and said they found JJ. So that person tells this kid and this kid calls my son. Welcome to Rexford.

Exactly. And said they found JJ and I lost it. And Matt said, Heather, that's not confirmed. We don't know that. We don't know that. Let's wait until we hear from someone who matters in this. And shortly after KTex, he said they found him. She had received some misinformation as far as where he was.

was clarified and then we were told they found Tiley and what condition that girl was in. My heart has never felt. I can't even describe that to know that one of your family members could be involved in something like that. So communicated the best I could with Kay. So sorry. I don't even know what to say. Matt's devastated. I called my son.

I was at Provo. He immediately drove up. We met. Matt's brother Paul drove up. We met with K. What do you even say? What do you even say? So sorry.

I could hardly tolerate driving home. I have to pass that house to get to my own home. I am just. Just now, three years later, two and a half years later, three since Tammy died, am I able to stomach living there? And to know that people are angry at me. So Matt talked to his parents when those kids were found.

I believe they even drove up to be with Chad's kids. And the kids were saying they're pioneer bones, their animal bones, they're pioneer bones. That's not them. how do you wrap your brain around that such mental gymnastics i don't fault them that how do you wrap your brain around that they just found two kids in your dad's backyard for matt's parents how do you process that so it wasn't until those two kids were found that people in the area finally it took that finally were like oh wow we were wrong we were lied to We thought he was something different.

And at that point, I was so angry at every dumbass who believed him that I just, I was a hermit in my home. I couldn't see anybody. I had a friend that one of those friends in that Relief Study presidency to contact me and said, I'm so sorry, I didn't believe you. She was a friend. I didn't believe you. I'm sorry. About a week after those kids were found, that's my friend.

mom did call me. And she said, Heather put it on speaker. I want Matt to listen and I want Jack to listen, but I don't want me to speak. Just let me talk. And she apologized for having said the thing she had said to Matt about me. It was sincere, it was genuine. And I said, I'm so sorry. I don't even know. I can imagine how you feel as far as you and I, we need to be okay and support each other. I was so grateful she made that phone call. That was not an easy phone call for her to make. Jack sat there and listened. He didn't say anything.

And not yet to this day has he ever apologized. And I don't expect that he ever will. That's fine. So I just, I'll briefly kind of touch on, so where I'm at as far as like in Matt's family, Paul has been, Paul did say to his parents, Heather was right. She was right. And Matt and I, just as we've talked and have tried to heal from the things that were said about me, all we can come up with is that they were just in such a confused hurt state that they just needed to deflect that onto somebody else.

And it was me. I understand that. So today, that's, I don't hold any resentment toward Matt's parents. I am deeply concerned for them, but I have to keep a clear line because they do communicate with Chad regularly, as they should. He's, they're his parents. But because they communicate and I need to not have communication because I don't want anything misconstrued said, anything that could get confused. So Matt, it's done a number on his relationship with them as well. He loves his parents.

They do a family group chat that they talk to each other again about nothing about Chad has ever discussed. You wouldn't know it was even going on if you read their texts. It's about the garden growing and fishing and going, you know, it's that kind of thing. What they need to do to maintain as much normalcy as they can as a family. So my kids have said you have a relationship with your grandparents, the kind that you want. Just because I'm not communicating with them doesn't mean that you can't. You're big kids.

You do what you feels best for you. So like my son and his wife that live down in Provo, they get together with Paul and with grandparents and have dinner. And I'm happy for that. So I just have to, one thing I'm learning is how. to create boundaries, and that's one that I have right now. You talked about the devastation, and I think obviously you've conveyed why you've experienced that sense of devastation. But I have the sense that maybe it goes even deeper than you being a scapegoat and not

being believed, and, you know, obviously it's created some rifts in the family, but could you just talk a little bit about the total impact and I mean, I know you've talked about a lot of it, but what it's done and Matt and I and a few of my children, we've had some really good therapy. Can't say enough about just talk therapy and talking through things. But one thing that living in a smaller tight-knit community and having this happen, Again, Matt and I have worked really hard to create a good name for ourselves. And that was really difficult. It's still to this day very difficult to go anywhere in town.

And I have a debit card and it says, Heather Daybell, you always get the look. When people ask your name, what's your name? Heather, Heather, who? other day bell oh it's just a lot of that because and that is even one thing that matt's mom said to me when she called and apologized was that and that was one thing it was very hard for us is that we're in we're right in the thick of it this is my home he's a half a mile from my home this was in my ward and she did say we don't live there yes they're the parents and they're

but they could separate a little bit because they're not in Rexburg. I mean, I just, I got introduced to someone just last week. Oh, where you from, Rexburg, Idaho? Oh, do you know about that daybell case? Yes, I do. So maybe a little. So it, you know, and I've said to me, I would you be offended if I went by my maiden name, Smith?

I'm going to blend with a lot of people. And so just trying to recover. And it makes me really sad from that. And I realized in the beginning when all this was happened, I was saying things to him that really hurt him because that's his name. That's his family. And so I had to kind of tone that down because it was hurting him. But now we're to a point he can joke about it.

about it, like we have to kind of joke about it. But just being associated with this story, it devastates us. Because I was the kind of parent that to my own children, I would say, I'd rather you be the bullied than be a bully. You just don't hurt to people. It's one of my biggest issues that I'll get into. to about the church. You just don't hurt people. We unintentionally do that all the time. We're human. But you don't know when we hurt people. And this more than hurt innocent people. So being associated

with that, having tried again, I did not think it would go where it went. I didn't think people dying would happen. But I, and I don't, I can't explain this. I don't know. But when Matt would say things like, Heather, let it go. The chat's here. Just let it go. There's nothing.

I couldn't. This was, it was eating me alive. And I hated that. I didn't like that. I wanted to let it go, but I couldn't. And I'd say to Matt, it was like anything that happened, it's like, I called it. before it happened. I was like, why?

It's like I had these spiny senses when I came to Chad. And it, I don't know why that is. But he did something that altered our lives. They have no control over. Couldn't do, couldn't do anything about it. I tried the best that I could to say something to people I thought could maybe do something about it. And I even would say to Chad, you're really getting off track.

And he'd say, the church knows what I'm doing. They haven't told me to stop. So I'm good. He said that to me several times. Church knows what I'm doing. Do you think that's accurate? I think knowing now what I know about church headquarters and how they keep tabs on people,

I think they were aware. I don't think they wanted to touch this. That a member of their church, because Chad was not excommunicated before the bodies were found. I think they haven't wanted to say anything publicly about this. They didn't wanted to touch this with a temple pole because it's a reflection. So I love, under the banner, of heaven. I love, I can't say I love. That's a weird way to say that. I'm grateful that light is being

shown on this stuff, that the Netflix documentary has come out and they did a fantastic job of the timeline of things. It was very clear. So that I'm grateful for, that it's shining a light on some of this stuff. Now, does the LDS church produce a bunch of killers? No, there's some that have really taking things to extreme. But do these people that have done these things justify their actions because of church teachings? Absolutely. And I've learned a lot since all this happened. So as far as, so for me, it's just, that it's a daily reminder because I have to drive by that place every day. So when it all happened, I was telling you, I was, I had a house picked out down in southern Utah.

I was out of there. I was leaving. If Matt was coming or not, I was leaving. That house sold really fast. I went down and looked at it. What Dan went down with my mom, it sold before I could do anything about it. It went from that to, okay, maybe I can stay. I don't need to leave the state.

Maybe I can stay in the area, but I just can't stay right here. But that was devastating because we've worked so hard on that place. And we love it. We love that place. We build our home. We worked hard. And Matt would keep saying, you know what? I feel like if we leave, it's like we let Chad win.

It's like we let Chad get the best of us. And that didn't feel right either. And so, but we had put, we put an offer on some property south. I said, even if you can get me south of here, just get me, because our business is there. Our, you know, our kid was graduating high school there. We don't want to have to root him. And put an offer down and the woman just wouldn't respond. It took too much.

She wasn't responding. And I finally just said, you know what? We'll stay. I'm in a better place. I will go into my church stuff, but it was, I think I can stay here. Let's just kind of remodel. We'll brighten things that we'll just make it feel new. So that's what we've been doing.

We're in the end processes of that. Where I can't, I'm feeling more comfortable in my home again and in the neighborhood. I don't talk to anybody unless I see, see them. Say hi. I don't really talk to anybody. Not that I don't like them. It's just I. So you were a lot more social before.

Yeah. I'm not one that has like a huge group of friends that I go hang out with. Matt's my friend. And when I go do anything outside my home, it's with usually Matt, my family. But I go have lunch once in a while with people. And I don't do a lot of that. But that's why I, this last winter, I went to aesthetician school. That was mostly just to meet new people in a different context.

And those girls were exactly what I needed. I was by far the oldest. She was like the mom, old mom of all of them. But I think there were 13 of us. And all but two had left the church. They were the crowd I needed. And awesome girls. So that was super helpful.

And then working on our home, getting my little room ready, you know, to have my business at home. to do aesthetician work and massage therapy and stuff like that. So that was all good. I think the question that I had, again, is still not resolved in my mind, but initially when we first talked to you guys was, is Chad inherently an evil person? Is there something that could have been done

that would have prevented him getting to this extreme? Or was this just going to happen? And I don't know how anyone can answer that. It just... Yeah, I mean, it's... that's always such a hard question. I know Matt was struggling with that a lot. I think in some ways it's easier

just to label someone as evil and be done with it, right? Because then you don't have to explain it. He was born evil, he's evil, it was going to happen. But I, you know, I think... And also that would take the onus off of upbringing or family, right? It would kind of make things easy. easier, I think, for family members to see it that way. So I get that, but we know this is a good

family. It's a good family. And my view has changed a little bit where I initially was like, this guy's evil to the core. How do you, learning some of the things I've learned that I know Chad learned about church history and different things. My opinion has changed a little bit in that. I think he discovered things the way I discovered things, and he took it in a different direction when I did. You shared that with me once, yeah, that you made you maybe a little bit more doubtful of the faith while for him. He had to fix it.

Church had to fix it. Church had gone off track. It was an apostasy. And he needed to be the person to be in charge because the church leaders now weren't, they were going to be turning to him. I think that's the direction he took it where I took it as this is just not true from the very beginning. So I just stepped a different direction. So I don't know. I think that definitely and I we talk about this in the podcast, but the those issues around mortality and those fears around mortality, they I think they, I think they

led him in such an extreme direction. You know, for normal people, it's not easy, but we cope with it, and we come to terms within. The fact that we all die. Right. But I think for Chad, that was a really difficult pill to swallow. And I think while he dealt with it his own way, when he was younger, I think that it caught up with them.

And that combination with Julie Roe and her notoriety. and I don't think Chad was good with processing his emotions. So, for example, dealing with mortality is a very difficult, you know, it brings up a lot of difficult emotions that are hard to deal with. And if you can't, you're going to go in an unhealthy direction potentially, or you're going to turn to drugs or whatever. There's a lot of ways you could go. But Chad was never a very open mind.

guy, you know, Matt is quite different in that regard. You know, like, I think there were a lot of things that came together. If Lori and Chad were a perfect storm, then I think Chad and certain variables or certain things that were happening in his life were kind of a perfect storm too. So the grave digging stuff, the religious beliefs. The lack of being open-minded. The lack of being open-minded, the struggles with his emotions, the relationship with his mother that wasn't very close.

I think that, you know, we talked about attachment. I don't, and I'm not taking anything away from Sheila or belittling her in any way, but for whatever reasons, Chad just wasn't close to her. And he didn't, I don't think he really felt completely attached to her. And I think that probably played a role too. So I think this combination of things, so which, you know, could there have been some genetic variables like being open-minded as genetic to some degree, not fully, but to some degree? The lack of empathy could be partially genetic, you know. So, I mean, all of these things, all of these variables, I think, came together and they were especially combustible when he meant Lori.

So I think you bring. Laurie into the mags and then you've got all these other variables in play and and that's that's one thing I have had to I used to say if if I had done more if Matt had done more if Matt's parents had done more saying something calling him out doing something if the church leaders would have said hey this is if they'd have listened to anyone you know would Tammy still be here or those kids still be here and you know I did through therapy and stuff just finally come to the conclusion that I just don't have that much power.

Nobody does. And one thing I have come to the conclusion, I did everything I could do. And it's, none of this is on me, is on Matt, is on Matt's parents. This is on Chad. And on Lori. And there's answers we will never have.

the inner workings of their brains, I don't understand it. In fact, I would argue that you did more than almost everyone and look what happened. Look where it got you. Look at the response to your pushing back to your being a bit of an adversary and questioning things, right? That's just one thing. That's something that I've just, I've at peace now. is that there's just some things I won't ever have answers to,

and I have to be okay with that. And to try to go down those paths, well, okay, if that person had done that, that's just Zapp's energy and it doesn't get me anywhere. So just letting that stuff go. Right. Right. At this point, I think it's about grieving.

It is. More than trying to change a past that's not going to, change. Yeah. So I, you know, Matt and I are just trying to gear up for the trial. I don't think we will be making, if we make any trips to Boise, it will maybe be one. And that's, I told Larry and Kay, that would be to sit next to you and show our support of you. I don't know at this point if to sit and listen to that trial day and day out for 10 weeks or however long that's going to take is going to be a healthy thing. So we'll just kind of get the highlights and let law enforcement and the judicial system do their thing, hopefully appropriately. And just let that happen

and move on. That looming trial would be hard that would just know that's coming to and the emotions that will bring. We were discussing this interview with Julie Roe, how she called Emma up. Or Emma called her or Julie called Emma. I'm not sure what, right after Tammy was found deceased and I'm going to say murdered. And she brought up past probation

and a fear of polygamy. Can you tell me, you know, you've thought a lot about that and Emma and bringing up polygamy with Julie Roe, the day her mom died and her fear of her dad getting remarried. What do you think happened? What do you think that was about? My, and I'm speculating, I don't know.

But I have wondered if Chad did approach Tammy about polygamy as one of his, you know, these, I don't know what Tammy knew as far as past probations, all that stuff. I suspect he didn't go into that a lot with her, what he was teaching in these little groups. But I've wondered, did he bring up polygamy with her? And she was not going to have that. And that that maybe led to her demise because she wasn't going to be okay with that. I don't know. Those are just different things that I wondered if, and especially when I heard,

heard that, Julie Rose say that about Emma, that Emma was concerned about him remarrying and bringing up polygamy and, man, did Chad do that to Tammy? Did he? Because I know men. I grew up in a war, I knew men that did that. They discovered that Joseph Smith was a polygamous. They believe in Joseph Smith, so they're going to be polygamous. They've left their families. Their wives didn't agree, so they left and when it became polygamous. Validates their affair. And you said he was looking. You know that. Yes. He had a source that knows said he did have, and Julie Roe mentions this, that a woman in Arizona that he was texting was getting close to.

And the person that told me this said it's so weird because she was another beautiful woman. Well off. I go, what? What are they seeing that I am not seeing? but that the husband found out and he called Chad and he threatened him, you know, leave my wife alone. So I, you know, Chad was, I think Chad was looking and that was his, that was his ammo. You know, I've been married to you in a past life. I've married you in a past life.

And then he knows that polygamy is part of church history and could have approached Tammy. And you know what? He didn't manipulate Tammy. Well, he convinced her to move to Rexburg. he did have coercive control over her, so maybe he did think that he could convince her of polygamy. And you've mentioned that she was depressed before. She was.

And so I wish I knew what happened right before she was killed because, you know, there was a coworker of hers that's just the day before, I think it was the day before Tammy died or just shortly before Tammy died that said she was off. She was not okay. And that co-workers, like, what was going on? What did she know? What happened? And so that's just one of those things I've wondered.

Did he approach her and say, hey, you know, can you live this principal? Can you, I've got this woman. You know, in his mind, had married Lori in Arizona Temple. Right. They were already married. My mind was already married to her. So did Tammy know that? I don't know.

But I wondered where Emma made that comment. at that I wonder. That's interesting. Thank you. Anything else want to say? No, I appreciate getting to tell my story and sticking to it. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan.

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Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked, old, or was chewed up by your Chihuahua travel companion, please refrain from holding up the line. Instead, go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands. for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI

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