Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Friend of Brandon Boudreaux and Melani Pawlowski breaks silence

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Jes was a close friend of Melani Pawlowski - Lori Vallow's niece - and is a close friend of Brandon Boudreaux. Jes shares her harrowing experience trying to help her friends, and the fear she experienced for months while people around her kept dying. This interview with Jes took place June 30th, 2021 the day after Lori Vallow was charged in Arizona for conspiring in the murder of her then-husband Charles Vallow. Charles was shot to death on July 11, 2019 by his brother-in-law Alex cox. Four years after Charles Vallow was shot and killed, Lori Vallow Daybell will face charges of first degree murder. We livestreamed Thursday's news conference with the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office on our YouTube Channel, and Lauren reads the charging documents and evidence Arizona has against Lori Vallow in our last episode. Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and reported with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] Support them at Patreon.com/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We are about to play an interview that took place June 30th, 2021. So over two years ago, it was the day after Lori Vallow was charged in Arizona for conspiring in the murder of her then-husband, Charles Vallow. Charles was shot to death on July 11, 2019 by Lori's brother, Alex Cox. Now, we've never played this interview on our podcast before until today. It actually happened before hit into crime, even owned. microphones for our long-distance Zoom interviews. So forgive the audio from our end. But this week, Lori was extradited to Arizona to finally face murder charges in Charles's death. And we realize

it is time to revisit this important conversation with someone in Arizona who saw firsthand. Her friend's devastating beliefs turn into the unfathomable. Hidden, a true crime podcast, a forensic and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. Jess is someone I'm grateful we'll finally be able to hear from. She was a close friend of Melanie Polowski and is a close friend of Brandon Boudreau. And she'll explain that relationship in more detail at the beginning of this interview. Jess has been one of hidden true crimes many reliable sources. Someone we haven't mentioned because she wasn't ready to come forward. until now. A disclaimer, Jess shares in this interview personal events how she experienced them and shares her personal opinions. Both hidden true crime and Jess understand that everyone is innocent

until proven guilty. At the time of this interview, no charges in the shooting investigation surrounding Brandon Boudreau have been made, but Arizona police say it is still an active investigation. Jess, will you, thank you for being here, will you tell me who you are? To really explain who I am, I guess I have to explain who I'm associated with. So my husband, I'm not going to say his name, and Brandon are business partners, Brandon Boudreau. they've been friends for about 12 years they've been business partners for 11 10 or 11 years um Melanie I met Melanie in the fall of 2010 okay and and Melanie for everyone is Melanie Blowski this was when she was Brandon's wife correct yep she was good row Melanie and I

were pretty good friends. We went on a vacation just the two of us and two of our kids. We would go to concerts. We would, we did a 5K. She would come over regularly. I would go over there regularly.

I knew Lori through Melanie, mostly at birthday parties. But Melanie was Lori was such a big part of Melanie's life that when she's with me, she's talking about Lori. And because I was in her life, when she's with Lori, she's talking about me.

So when I would see Lori, she wasn't a stranger to me. She was, you know, I would give her a hug. And I'd ask her about the adoption or I would ask her about whatever and she knew stuff about my life. I knew Tyley and JJ very little again mostly just from birthday parties but they would be not really so much Tiley

but they would be playing in the pool yeah Charles and my husband and Brandon my husband was really good friends with Charles he and

Brandon and Charles were actually in the process of doing a startup when Charles was killed. Just like an additional side business on top of what they were already doing. Then Zach, when Zach was in Arizona, he worked for my husband and Brandon. So I was just kind of in the thick of everything, just by association. It makes sense.

Right. You know everyone because of this circle of close friends. You're close with Melanie. You're close with Brandon. They're close with Lori and Charles. And then you're going to know the children. So you know every player. Yeah.

So I never really got to know personally Charles or Zach. I know Zach really well, like without talking to him just because he worked for my husband. But we really didn't talk the two of us. The business was kind of the hub. Natalie Polowski, when she was in the process of finding everything, that's where she was calling, was the business. They were working with Natalie to try to, you know what they did. Right. Working with Natalie for that. And so it kind of indirectly became. this hub of information because that's just where everybody was. Right.

Everyone was kind of coming together, even just before the public even knew about what was going on. Everyone in Arizona and your circle was sort of coming together and figuring out information. Is that correct? Before this was ever in the media. What is happening? Yeah. So, and it was such a crazy thing because it kind of, for me,

It starts in 2017, kind of indirectly, because I brought home to foster kids in 2017. And then that same year, I got a MRSA infection. And I got really, really sick. I almost died. During that time, me and Melanie had a little bit of a falling out. I was really angry with her. And then the end of 2018, I was feeling better. And she contacted me and she said that she wanted to work it out.

And, you know, I'm not someone that wants to hold a grudge. I don't want to be angry. So she came over in December of 2018. And by then, she was fully entrenched. And she was telling me about preparing a people. the reason she was telling me was because I had been so sick. And it was kind of presented as health and wellness. This will help you.

This will help you feel? Yeah, because I was starting to transition into a very organic lifestyle, trying to just do everything I could to be healthy. And so she and Lori were getting into that, and that's some of what they would focus on. But as she was telling me about preparing a people, I just, I couldn't. I couldn't get on board with it. It was a little too weird.

It was a little too. It was too much. Well, she'd tell you, when you say alternative healing, was there essential oils involved? Or was it just blessing and spiritual things? It's the spiritual stuff. It's the, you know, kind of like the stuff that Julie Rowe does. The energy healing. The energy healing.

There's a lot of like pendulum, you know, asking spirits to tell you based on pendulums. Melanie or Lori brought that up to you. Melanie was talking about some things. I can't really say exactly what she was talking about right now when, you know, later. I could. But she was just talking about it. And I just felt like it was too weird.

I felt like if she was happy. if she felt fulfilled, then I was happy for her. And I would support her. I told her that if she wanted to give me a pamphlet, that I would look at it. Or if there was a workshop on clean eating, I would go to that. But then 2019 came, and that's when Lori really went off the rails. and that's when Melanie started believing the things that Lori said

and getting more involved. When you say go off the rails, what's the difference between 2018 and 2019? What does that mean or look like? 2018 was very quiet. It was just people going to meetings and listening to podcasts. It was very,

that's pretty innocent. And preparing a people stuff was innocent. From the outside. Okay. You know, I know from within that there was starting to be some issues. But from the outside, what I knew about it, it was not a big deal. It was just podcasts and stuff. What you're observing was okay, right?

Nothing shocking. Sure, sure. It was weird, but it wasn't dangerous. That makes sense. So Lori starts. saying really odd things, starts doing really odd things. Zach is staying with them. He's telling us about it.

Brandon is going through, you know, the divorce with Melanie and talking about that. And Charles was talking to my husband and to Brandon and to Zach and, you know, everybody just kind of saying what was happening. So we just kind of knew it was happening. Honestly, in the beginning, it was just weird. Like, it was not threatening. It was just weird. When Lori said later that she was going to destroy Charles,

even when I heard that, I thought she meant financially or his reputation. I never, ever, I don't think anything. anybody thought that she was going to be violent. And I didn't know that she had threatened his life until he was already gone. It was really crazy, though, because people were getting starting to, right before Charles died, starting to get worried, like what is happening. I've told you this. My aunt is diagnosed schizophrenia. And so when I was a teen, I grew up with that.

I'm familiar with that. And so when we were going through these things, it was deja vu for me. And I was like either they're brainwashed or there's some mental health issues. Something changed very drastically in 2020. 2019. The day that Charles died, you know, Zach kind of talked about it in his interview, nobody knew. They didn't tell anybody. That was like, I think it was a Thursday. And that Saturday, Melanie was out of town. My family was just swimming. And Brandon, Melanie was moving out. Brandon was just packing. And then he gets a call that Charles has been shot.

And he calls my husband. My husband just runs. He's just like, Charles is dead. And I asked him who shot Charles? And he said, Alex. And I was like, that wasn't self-defense. And he's like, nobody thinks it's self-defense. Nobody thought so-law.

Yeah, everybody knew that it wasn't self-defense. Brandon was really scared. He was like, I'm going to be next. So he sensed it already. He knew when he found out. So my husband ran off, which was good, you know, to go to go support Brandon. I was really worried about Tiley and JJ. I

I since I've adopted from the foster system I know that CPS should get involved I thought they did I was thinking if Tiley and JJ were in danger

it was in the beginning when they had time to talk and then nothing when you say the beginning you mean when Charles was shot or before was shot yeah it was it was it was if they were in danger it would be while they had time to talk when i found out that

they weren't in the house when it happened i was like okay so they didn't directly witness the killing that's what saved them or humanity but you know so months start to go by and we're thinking that they're safe that tiley and jj are safe Lori leave we're all thinking that the police are investigating Charles's death, which I guess they didn't for several months. That's what I was told. And then Melanie takes off. We didn't know that pregnant you were even missing in September. And then one day in October, I get a call again.

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Get started today. And Brandon, to me, in Arizona, most of us don't have any family. So we kind of become each other's family. You're all transplants and so you find your community. Right. So for Brandon to be in danger to me would be like if someone said someone shot at my brother. Yep. And so it was really.

obviously upsetting. And I think one of the most upsetting things was my husband said, Brandon's flying out tomorrow. Can he stay with us tonight? And I was like, of course he can. And then I was like, wait, can he? Which felt horrible. If your friend's life is in danger, but you have to consider if helping them put your family in danger. And it was a really horrific thought. And then I just said, just sneak him in, sneak him in because we go to keep our family safe. Right. We have to help, Brandon.

So that night they came, and I can't really describe. what Brandon looked like. It was awful. It was awful. Can you try to explain? Was it emotions that you saw or what? He looked like a ghost. He looked like he was going to break.

But he has four kids. Right, go ahead. He has four kids. You can't have a mental. breakdown and um i just i ran over to him and and i hugged him and he he hugged me so tight and i i'm trying really hard not to cry it was awful it was awful um he flew out the next day and um and then it started and then the horror started because brand on the run and um he's on the run with his kids i i kind of told this to you and it's not something i

really talk about but one of the hardest things for me in this situation is that i was really good friends with melany and i want her to be in a situation and i want her to be in a sent so badly, even still. And I don't believe she is. So to me, Melanie died too. My friend died too. And Lori, the Lori that I knew. And nobody wants to hear that, I mean, no one is all good and no one is all bad.

and so when all these things are happening I remember the good things I know really good things about these people but I can't ignore reality but it's been hard because I'm mourning somebody that's alive she's dead but she's alive

that's a good description we were really scared I called my husband about an hour ago, I said, we're visiting my mom. And my husband isn't here. That's why I had to call him. And I was like, I want your perspective, you know, in retrospect, what you felt like it was like for October, November, December. Because I know for me it was really scary and it was really intense.

and he said that he didn't feel like it was quite as scary as I found it, which is fair. You know, we all have our own perspective. But people were really, really scared of Alex, especially after Tammy died. And Melanie and Alex and people like Melanie Gibb were, watching our houses. And Melanie showed up with Alex. Melanie Gibbs. My friend's house.

Melanie Pulaski. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Melanie Pulaski showed up with Alex. Yeah. To one of our friend's houses who was so scared that she almost packed up and left. When was that?

That was in October. Before or after Tammy. died because Tammy died in October. I don't remember for sure. Okay. And that's when they were living in Rexburg then. So they like came down to Arizona. Yeah. And they went over to your friend's house.

Wow. Yeah. And sometimes it's hard to talk about this because there's so much. There's so much that happened. You know, to me it's not a timeline. It's it's days and weeks and hours and minutes of things that were happening. In October as well, Melanie Plowski put a Facebook post up asking people to help her find Brandon in the kids. I've seen that Facebook book.

You've seen it? So you probably saw my comments. Why don't you share a bit of that? Yeah, I've never talked to you about this. Yeah. I at that point was convinced that Lori and Alex and Chad were behind the shooting of Brandon. And obviously, Tammy's death. And by then, you know, we know that Tiley and J.G. are missing.

For everyone to understand, too, this is still before any of us knowing. Nobody knew. Nobody did. The media came out in December. We're talking right after Tammy's death, right? You guys, there's stuff happening. You guys are all talking to Information Hub. So, okay, go ahead.

People just kept dying. People kept dying and nobody did anything about it. And you knew that Tiley and JJ were missing, too. Did you guys think that they were, did you guys think the worst? I was kind of both. We knew they were capable of murder, but they're kids. So I just really was like hoping that they were in a bunker safe, but they'd already killed so many people that it was always a possibility. But when it's kids, you really have extra hope that they will not hurt them.

But Melanie put out that Facebook post. And at that point, I really didn't know how I felt about whether she was guilty or not. Um, she had been ignoring my texts for a while, um, which was odd because she knows that when my friends get divorced, I don't pick sites. So it was odd for her to ignore my texts, um, which looked bad to me. Like, why wouldn't she talk to me? And then she put out that post and, um, because I wasn't, um, because I wasn't. sure, but I knew I didn't want Brandon to be found. I was trying to convince everybody not to tell her where Brandon and the kids were. And Brandon in hiding, Brandon is a really good person. And I don't think he could have survived if he wasn't because he had so many people helping I think when the full story eventually comes out, it will blow people's minds. Because the amount of people that were willing to step up for Brandon's sake is,

I don't want to say shocking because I know Brandon, but surprising to, I think, the everyday person. Average person, it was impressive, the amount of people. And when you be helping, do you mean hiding him? hiding him. We did some things. I don't know how much I can say, so I have to be careful, but... A Facebook post, I have many people

have been able to see it as long as they have one mutual friend with Melanie Polowski. So it's fairly public. Yeah, that's not what I'm thinking. I'm thinking more of what was done to protect Brandon. Just a lot was done. We personally basically told, Brandon, whatever you need, tell us, we'll do it.

And then did our best to follow through on that. But there was a lot of people, friends all over the United States, he could have gone out of the country if he wanted to. And because I wanted to talk to Melanie, I made a point to not know where Brandon was. Telling the truth to me is always really important, and Melanie knows that. I wanted to talk to her, and I wanted to talk to her. to be able to tell her that I didn't know where Brandon was and have it be truthful. So even though I could find out and that my husband knew, I purposely made a point not to know

so that I could talk to her. After that Facebook post, she did, she did text me back. She was frustrated. And I answered her and I was like, you know, I'm not taking sides. I'm not blaming you. I'm not saying it's your fault. I just think it's a really bad idea to say where somebody is when they've got a shooter after them regardless. What month is this?

November. Tammy's been killed. The children have been killed. We know now. You didn't know then, but we know now. And Charles has been killed. So everyone at this point. Okay.

So I actually said to her, I was like, Melanie, you don't even know if you're safe. What makes you think that you are going to be an exception? You've got to step away from these people. And she just didn't feel the way I felt about it, about the situation. We ended up talking for hours about the situation. I wanted her tell me her side. And I really wanted her to be innocent. And I really felt like Brandon could be telling the truth

and Melanie could be telling the truth. She got married. Alex got married. The people at the office stopped going in. A lot of them stopped going in. um, Zach had left with his dad a while before, which was good.

Because I think Zach and his dad were probably would not have survived. Zach and Adam Cox. Yeah. I don't think. And I asked my husband earlier, I said, do you think like I do? That they would have taken them out.

And he said, absolutely. And the main reason I think that is because in the video where the cops are talking to Lori and she says my brother's trying to kill me and she's referencing Adam. Right. What do we know about Lori? Everything that she accuses someone else of doing, she is always doing. Is she accusing Adam of trying to kill her?

I am positive. She was after him. Yeah. And in that same body cam and footage, she also said that Kay wanted insurance money or something, which, right, again, projection. right so yeah well said your her brother's trying to kill her interesting right what does that mean yeah i really think i really think had the media not stepped in especially i don't think that the authorities did a whole lot none of us felt safe um to the point that some people wouldn't even go to work anymore

they were afraid that Alex would show up and shoot everybody in the office some people wouldn't even go. And at this time, well, everyone is so fearful of Alex, Melanie is hanging out with Alex and visiting friends with Alex. And she's houses.

With Alex. And when she went to that friend's house, I just, it was that October also, we hear that. We said October, so that means every death. J.

and Kylie have been killed. Again, Tammy has been killed. Charles has been killed. And then Melanie Pulaski and Alex are, showing up at a friend's house together like what? And we know that she's got people watching us.

She was trying to find Brandon. She was trying to find the kids. She calls them Angel Warriors, people that would follow people and take pictures and send them to her of wherever they thought Brandon might be. Should Angel Warriors following Brandon taking photos of the kids? if they were trying to find Brandon. They were following us.

Trying to find Brandon. Following you to figure it out. So we're warriors from Rexburg or Arizona or. I don't know. And when you say, you mentioned Melanie Gibb too. Did you just say Melanie Gibb was watching your house? I don't know if Melanie Gibb was watching my house, but I know that she was sent to Brandon's house after the shooting.

So I assume she was one of the people, but I don't know. I've never asked her. You don't know. Why was she sent to Brandon's house after the shooting? I don't remember. Did she like ring his warbell, talk to him, or she'd drive by, or? She knocked on a neighbor's door and asked about Brandon, because after the shooting, he left. We packed him up, and he left.

So I don't know if they didn't know. he wasn't staying in that house anymore or what, but he was long gone. Somebody asked her to go for something and we don't. Melanie asked her to go, yeah, find out. Melanie Pulaski asked Melanie Gibb to go find out where he was. Right. Right. And so she knocked on a neighbor's door and found out about the shooting because I guess nobody

bothered to tell her. When you had that very long conversation with Melanie Pulaski after the Facebook post again we're talking October multiple deaths well the phone call ended up that was November 7th or 8th wow okay so at this point the children have been missing for a long time she hasn't seen her niece and nephew for a long time Charles is dead Brandon's been shut out so what was her side I mean when you would say where are the kids did you bring up where the missing kid because she kind of implied in an interview with Nate Eaton that she never really noticed the kids were missing is that true

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I said to the news that she didn't know, but she trusted Lori and she believed that they were okay, which I don't think is true. I don't think that's accurate. I think that's what she told me. But that is what she said. Okay. And that's, that was her story with you. That's her story. Okay.

It wasn't until the media got involved and Alex died. That was the first time in two or three months that we felt safe. That's the first time that I stopped, you know, double checking or all my windows locked or all my blinds, closed. Does anybody following me? is there somebody on my street? We could finally breathe. People felt like they could go back to work. I hadn't let my kids go to anybody's houses or let anybody come over.

Just because it felt wrong. If I didn't know if we were safe, I was not going to put anybody in danger. So we were just done available and I just didn't give a reason why. So my kids didn't go anywhere. nobody came over except people that were already in the thick of it we would all hang out together probably getting closer going through this yeah yeah um we were really grateful for the media really grateful for the public support i i don't think i think a lot more people would have died if the public hadn't been so interested what

What was it that finally took the media to say, okay, was it the welfare check in Rexburg with Kay? Because you guys were talking to Kay, right? You, as I recall, Kay has said that she was communicating with Brandon about Tammy's death, right? They called and said, Tammy's dead now. They knew about Tammy. When Tammy died, Brandon made a point to contact everybody. Contact Kay, contact the police in Rexburg, contact the police. and Gilbert and Chandler, Brandon was like, these are all connected.

These are not separate incidents. Put it together. Realize what's all. Yeah. Yeah. And it still took. It still took two more months. Yeah.

And no autopsy on Tammy. Yeah. There's, I mean, it was such a bizarre thing that people were dying. So many people were dying. and so many people were scared and disappearing and nothing was happening and everybody was so scared it was just this waiting game

of when is somebody going to care enough to help us? Yeah, was the media not, it was just nobody connecting the dots like no police, no media or were they listening and then saying we're trying our best? Kuling. But Lisa has a

unbechimred leant on the moron pendling little easier when when you tryves

on job. Good for contours, school and industry. It is happiness

at work from AI products. So I don't know about the media specifically. I think

K and Larry know. I think they were the ones that kind of instigated the media

which was great. And I wish that we thought about that earlier. but the police were the ones that especially Brandon was really pushing but they it was like nobody

it was like nobody believed that it was an issue and you can go back and look at the videos of Charles begging for help saying she's going to kill me and nobody did anything right it was like that for like nine months right right right did uh when you say that you were good friends with Melanie and that things were normal or seemed normal from an observer from the outside in 2018 and everything changed in 2019, what do you mean? What changed? So I wasn't really good friends with Lori.

We had a good relationship, but I was close to Melanie, not Lori. Okay. Yeah. So I just want to clarify that. Yeah. I really don't know how to fully explain it other than to go back to the my aunt was schizophrenic, is schizophrenic. It was just like that. Just at first things are weird.

People are doing and saying weird things, the whole Ed Schneider thing, the whole light and dark. the things that came out to the public later we found out about in like June, July. So we knew about it way before, like the rating systems. We were hearing about people that were leaving their marriages because Chad said that they were married to other people so then they would start sleeping together, even though they were married and they justified it by saying, well, this was my spouse from another life. We were hearing stories about events. I don't know if this is true.

This is just what we heard about, that psychedelics were involved. It's just a lot of odd stuff. And you don't know what was rumor and what was real except for, what we could find solid evidence on. Back then LDS Freedom Forum was a good source of info on Chad. We didn't know a lot about Chad other than that Lori was cheating on Charles with Chad and that he was a big cause of all of what was going on in the catalyst. But a lot of what we found out about Chad was through LDS,

freedom for them, people talking about five or six years leading up into the things that Chad was teaching up until him claiming that he's a prophet and whatnot. And the transition from that, the train dream that everybody talks about that was on there. Yeah, and to clarify for everyone, there's a train dream that's infamous that Chad wrote that essentially kind of talks about church leadership falling away, right? And it applies new leaders. The train dream was so ridiculous. Yeah, it was a really boring read.

I mean, it had some interesting parts, but it was long. Let's just, it was long. The whole point of the train dream was Chad trying to claim that he's a prophet approved of by, there's a prophet, President Snow. And he's indicating in the dream that this prophet was the last real prophet and that he approves of Chad. And also, like, Chad was supposedly seated with, like, prolific authors, which was hilarious. Yes, he was seated with, right, I know some of the authors. desert book authors. He called them prolific. They're LDS Mormon-based authors that he was

seated with. Right. Right. It's funny. Like if you read what he writes, he's such a terrible author. Yes. So that's interesting. So I've heard a lot. I've heard about some spouse swapping stories. You were hearing that scene. It was, did Melanie tell us? you she was a part of that at all or? No, no. During that summer, that's when she was ignoring me. Okay. So that was more that the cult. We were calling it the cult and we were trying to figure out what was going on, what they believed in, what they were doing.

We wanted to help Melanie. Lori had already killed Charles by then. So, you know, if we could get Melanie away from Lori before she made any mistakes or got into deep, we wanted to. But, I mean, she didn't want to talk to anybody. She wasn't listening. She wasn't interested. So it just gave us some information to understand what we were dealing with, which was scary but helpful. So I want to try to process everyone's parts of this.

It seems like it was Chad's belief system. Would you agree with that a little bit? I mean, I'm sure that that was the group effort too, because I know that Julie Roe and Chad has some similar beliefs, but it was Chad's belief system. Lori, you felt, was kind of pulling Melanie Plowsky in a little bit because you said he wanted her away from Lori.

She was kind of, Do you think that Chad and Lori and Melanie all believed this? Oh, absolutely. 100%. What I can't decide is if it was mental illness, brainwashing, or psychedelics? Because, you know, like I said, I'm warning someone that's alive but dead. The people that I knew, especially Melanie, so much Lori.

It goes against who she was. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know how else it could happen. Melanie did a lot of really kind things for people. She gave away an SUV worth like $35,000 to a family that she felt like was in need. She just gave them the title. So it's hard to reconcile somebody that would hand over a $35,000 car out of the goodness of their heart with what happened.

Yeah, yeah. And the girl that I went on vacation with. And I think that they have to believe this stuff. It was applied about Zach Cox interview with Justin Long. Zach said that, you know, Alex gave him a Chad daybelt look and said, read this. You know, I'll give you a hundred bucks, almost like Alex really believed it too. I thought that was interesting. I can see where you're going.

No, I mean, I think they believed it too. I do too. The research that I did on Chad, trying to understand what was going on, what I took out of it was that he published for Julie. Julie did well. Then he published what was supposedly fiction that did well. And then all of the sudden fiction is fact. He's claiming that these near-death experiences are a fact.

And first it's one and then it's two and I think it ended up being three. Suddenly are a fact. And I think that he knows that's crap. I think he wanted the attention. the fact that he was convincing, trying to convince people that he's a prophet, I think he does believe that. I think the other details,

not so much. I think he made up the light and dark just out of the blue based on, there's some rating system from something. I can't remember what it was. There's a light and dark, and then there's the pendulum

and then there's who's who in past life and who you're related to and who your children are and you're telling Melanie this stuff too.

Yeah. The way that they really pulled everybody in was I think the way that all cults do and I think that you guys have talked about this in your podcast. I try to listen to all of them but I'm pretty sure

was through you guys that I heard this, but it's, they go after a lot of people that are needing to matter, needing to be important. And that definitely was Lori and it was definitely absolutely Melanie. And I know for Melanie, like when she was talking to me about it in 2018, that's what she said to me. She said things to try to pull at, I guess, my ego in a very subtle way, that you're special, you're unique. I think that you're one of the few people that would get this. For me, I don't need outside approval. I was fortunate to have very secure attachment in my life, and so I don't really need that.

So to me, it was kind of an odd thing to say because these people don't know who I am. They don't know if I'm special. They don't, you know, like, it was odd. But it was something that she needed. She needed to be important. She needed to be the things that Chad told her she was. So in other words, she didn't have that secure attachment that you had.

She didn't. She didn't. She, in a lot of ways, I feel really bad for her because she was so traumatized by what happened with her mom. She just, she just. It's cozy season and nothing compares to wrapping yourself in a Minky Couture blanket. Luxuriously soft, perfectly warm, thoughtfully made. From movie nights to chilly mornings, Minky Cotourts.

Tarture turns everyday moments into pure comfort. Once you feel it, you'll understand why it's called the original best blanket ever. Visit minkie couture.com or a store near you and make this cozy season your softest one yet. This was suffering from that. And Lori was such a big part of our life because Lori filled the piece of shoes missing. That would make sense. Lori was her mother's sister. Her mother was Stacy.

And wasn't it Lori that even called Melanie to tell her mother had passed away? As I recall, Melanie saying in a Facebook group or Facebook post once. And so if that's true, Lori would play a big role in her part. A mother figure type role to her would make sense. So Melanie knew her dad, or her, it's not her dad. Her mom died. Yes. She was, she told me that the.

timelines were different. So what Lori told her versus what her other family told her were different. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So she was really upset by that. I don't know which one is correct.

But I know she's really upset about that. Somehow when she was told her mother's death, something wasn't truthful. Right. Somebody. I don't know who. But it was hard for her. and she trusted Lori.

Lori really was very motherly to her. Yeah. You know, I want to talk about that actually because Lori literally would talk about her like she was her daughter in the recording of Lori's testimony at Melanie Gibbs home, which is infamously says, I wanted to murder Joe Ryan.

She says something about how sad, she was going to be to move to Hawaii because she would leave her baby and her baby's babies. I'm like, well, you're not leaving entirely. There's only no, none of your babies have babies. And my first thought was she's talking about Melanie Plowski. So there are many times that she's referring to Melanie Plowsky as her daughter. And then Chad gave her an email that was saying who their kids were in past lives. And Melanie Plowsky was one of them.

So what you're saying resonates to me that, yes, Lori was like a mother figure. to Melanie Penske. She was. And that's why Melanie always talked about her. It's anytime you're really good friends with somebody, you start to get to know their family. Like, you know, when everything happened with Brandon, that's who I was thinking of, was his family.

And the first time I saw his family after the shooting, I just went to his mom and I just started bawling. And I just was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that we couldn't stop this, which is crazy because it's not like we could have. Right. And you did a lot to protect him and help him and support him. When we get really upset about it, I have to remind myself that Brennan and his kids could have been five more. A couple, it wasn't one of them at least or two of them labeled Dart.

Brennan's children, two of them. And we know what happens when people are labeled dark. I think if he hadn't left that they could have been killed. I think it's a really good thing that he left with the kids. Do you think Melanie was just kept in the dark and kind of innocent, like, or just like, how about this ignorant? Or do you feel like she knows or do you want to plead the fifth on that? I want her to be innocent. to be innocent still.

I just don't know that the facts point to that. And I try to be a realist. I don't want to go by how I feel and what I want. If the day comes where Melanie turns out to be innocent, I will call her and apologize and try to make up that relationship. but I don't think that will happen. How did you feel about the news coming out yesterday about charges in Charles's death?

What were your feelings? So every time, every time there's a new development, it's so good, but I struggle. I can't decide if the level of trauma that I have with this is even deserved. You know, like should I be this traumatized by it? but whether I should be or not, I don't know. But anytime something new comes out, I kind of regress a little bit into being really emotional. So I had a lot of anxiety and I was pretty emotional,

even though it's a good thing. I don't know why I do that. your husband probably knows I think it's probably trauma I think that would be called trauma yeah it would be us reacting to trauma and remembering

you know I think that said I think I'm a very visual person and I think harder than my own fear was the people around me and when

I am struggling. It's not because I'm so much reliving the fear as I'm remembering everybody's faces. I'm remembering Brandon's face. I'm remembering his family's faces. I'm remembering just everybody's faces and how scared they were. And it just kind of repeats. I got a lot of trauma therapy for. for it and it's a little easier.

I kind of channeled it into music. I have an album I called Pavlov's Tears. It's actually half Korean and half English, which I did on purpose because if I can't understand all of it, like nobody makes music about surviving a serial killer in a pandemic. So I needed something to channel to channel my feelings.

So it's actually called mono. But I called it Pavlov's tears. And every time I listened to it, I would cry. And then when it was over, it was over. And then I just couldn't cry anymore. And that still works pretty good. So like yesterday, I was listening to the album to just get it out. That makes sense.

It would make sense. I want to say you're pretty normal. It would make sense that when a development happens, that it would be traumatic. and you'd feel some old feelings again. It's a process. That's normal. It's normal.

Justin Lom reporter, Justin Lom in Arizona, shared today that Brandon's attempted murder is still being investigated. What are your thoughts on that? Is that relief? Is that fear because of what that might mean or who might be charged? I feel pretty calm about it. I feel pretty confident that they will prosecute.

And I feel pretty confident about who they're going to prosecute. And I feel pretty confident that, you know, the right people will be held accountable. I hope that I'm wrong about one of them. I hope that she's not involved. but I think she is. You're preparing. But I feel like it will happen.

The timeline, as long as it happens, they're tied up in Idaho anyway. So as long as it happens, it can be okay with it taking a while. And as long as they don't give up and they do a good job. We've heard about Chad Daybilt books. We've heard about Denver's snuffer books being read.

What was being read by Melanie Ploskey? She didn't tell me. She never told me. I talked to her again in that January. She never mentioned it. And then soon after I talked to her, they found, we knew that Lori was in Hawaii that wasn't a surprise. Yeah.

Most people knew, right, except for the public. that she was in Hawaii. No. So that was a big surprise to the public, but everybody knew where she was. When Nate E.N. interviewed, not interviewed, tried to interview Lori,

and she wouldn't say that the kids were alive. That's the first time that I was like, I don't think they're in a bunker. Hopefully they are, but I don't think they're in a bunker. And it really scared me. And that's when I stopped talking to Melanie on the phone. And then after the kids' bodies were found, we were still friends on Facebook.

She kept shutting down her account and then joining up again. She posted on her wall, the same thing that she posted to the news, the press release. And I know that she loved her cousins. And I know that whatever she believes about their death and whether it's right or wrong or whatever, she loves those cousins. So at first I said, you know, I'm sorry for loss, whatever. And then it just, I was just angry. I was just so angry. So I deleted it.

And I wrote, do you still support Lori? because I had to know. And Ian's family, they started replying. They were infantile, sending me gifts and calling me stupid or whatever. It was just, it was ridiculous.

I just blocked them all like. Calling you stupid and sending you gifts. Oh, gifts. I think you said gifts. Yes. Like, how could you ask such a stupid question? I was like, you've got to be kidding me. This is the only question we need to know.

Yeah. And even still then, I still was hoping she wasn't involved. And I blocked Ian's family so they couldn't keep commenting. And I just wrote, we've been friends for a decade. I deserve this. I have the right to hear from my friend for a decade if she supports Lori. And she wrote

a really long response, non-response back. Has she always done that, by the way? Because she had a lot of non-responses and interviews, too. She, you know what's funny about the interviews is I encouraged her to do them. Because I figured if she was innocent, that it would help.

And if she was guilty, then it would help the police. So she's probably not happy with me about that because that did not go well for her. Anyway, I interrupted you. She responded with a very long non-response. She responded with a very long non-response. She didn't use to talk like that. that's really just been since she started hanging out with Chad and Lori and all those guys. But she basically said, I don't support murder if that's what you're asking.

And I'm like, of course that's what I'm asking. But she said, Lori's not been found guilty. And until she's been found guilty, I'm going to support her. and I I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it and then she blocked me my Celeste talked to her

a year ago wow you're a mother though you know and you have fostered children you've adopted I mean if you could

I when when Lori wouldn't say that her kids were alive he was the most unbelievable thing. I think there was nothing that surprised me more than that. How a parent could not even say my child is alive is horrific. That's horrific. Yeah.

I remember that interview. Did she say that's great? You know, when Nate Eaton said. What I think is that is they said, people are praying for you and she said that's great. That's all she said. It was disgusting. Thank you for sharing what you know.

I've learned a lot. I think it's really valuable you're coming forward and I'm really honored that you trust me and John, you know, and us, a hidden. Can I ask, yeah, you know, I ask everybody this. Why have you decided to do this interview? speak up for the first time so for the past two years people have wanted to hear about it um but there's a few reasons why not only i haven't been talking but other people haven't been talking part of it is you need time to understand what is valuable in the prosecution because nobody wants to mess

set up. You don't want to accidentally say something that can affect that. That's part of it. I think people are severely traumatized. This thing with Alex, the stocking thing with Alex, that's not the first time I've been stalked. It's the third. And so I've got a lot of additional trauma surrounding stocking and there is a lot of people showing up you know that had YouTube channels or whatever wanting surprising people showing up at their house wanting to get some sort of scoop and people were really forgetting that were real people and that were highly traumatized and especially having people show up is hard. It sets off panic because you flash back to Alex.

So that there is a lot, I think also I couldn't talk about it without crying. This has been two years. This is, I'm, this might be one of the only times I've talked about it without absolutely losing it. It takes time to even be able to talk about it because it's so emotional, especially after they found the kids' bodies. I really, I really kind of lost it for a few months emotionally. Even when I wondered if they killed the kids, I didn't think for one second that they would mutilate their bodies. And I had always believed that my kids were safe. And when they found the kids, I started picturing my kids as those kids. And I couldn't, couldn't handle it. I couldn't

handle it. I couldn't. I couldn't. I just couldn't handle it. So it took time. I needed therapy personally. I can't speak for anyone else. I needed a lot of therapy. I had to learn. how to when I feel the feelings come up so I don't burst into tears like how to handle it. If I tried to talk a year ago, I would have just cried through the whole thing. And I think truthfully, you don't know in the beginning who genuinely cares and who just wants attention. and I also didn't want personally a lot of attention or any attention. I felt like the story needed to be told, but I didn't want people showing up at my house, things like that.

You just, you don't want to trust the wrong person and have them make, you know, put you back where you're scared. So I spent a lot of time listening to you guys. listening to the news, listening to, and just kind of made a short list if I would ever trust to talk about it. And it's short, less than five people, really three, three people. So that's why. I think the public needs to know what happened. I think we owe the public that in return for the fact that without them caring about the case,

I think a lot of people would have died. And if people are going to care enough that it's going to keep us safe, we should tell him what happened. I tell every person that comes forward that I'm honored to interview, thank you for your bravery. It's not fun to want to talk. What I've uncovered covering this case is that it is deep. and it has layer after layer after layer,

you know, you know how they say to peel the onion back? There's like 50 onions here. And that it's dangerous and that we need to stop the cycle, that there are things still happening. And the best way to stop it is for people coming forward that don't necessarily want to come forward. And so I'm grateful and I'm honored that you were, you know, two years later. Thank you for being brave and sharing.

And I hope that it lifts a bit of a burden from you too, that I hope it lifts something off of your heart. I hope it's okay to share this, if not I'll edit it, but you sent me a beautiful poem that you wrote. And it was incredible. with a beautiful poem. And, you know, those are the type of things. Like, I hope that that helped you in writing that. It was very heartfelt and very emotional. And I hope that being able to finally talk about it and get some things out also.

Yeah, you can, you can share. Okay. So with your permission, I will share that poem. Thank you. The Murderers in Our Mids by Jess. How does a murderer hide so well? your smile kept you cloaked your ugly mind and black heart between kind words you often spoke where have i been all this time in the darkness my broken heart all that happened before my eyes the destruction of a life's art how did you hide so completely what a joke you must think i am do you laugh when you think of me the blind fool that i am i once thought you held me so dear. Your secrets I once thought I knew. Lips once closed. It's time to tell.

This gaping hole in my chest raw from the burning fire. My fear and grief too much. I cannot escape the scalding pyre. I cannot find the strength to stand. Cannot find the person in the mirror. What have you done to the girl I was? If I find her, again, will I fear her? The monster I thought I escaped became the person at my side. How did I not see the change all your darkness you did hide? Your smile was once so sweet. Now the image makes me ill. I will never forgive myself. My thoughts will forever spill. Time will pass as it always has, but I will stay the same. Burdened with my hatred,

who of us deserves this shame. I wish I had seen it, the danger that you possess. But instead of this I loved you, full of agony, I do confess. The pit in my stomach grows, heavier each passing day. Forever I will carry it,

never to be tossed away. A fool then and a fool later, the joke I see in my reflection. Behind these pretty eyes, all I see is your destruction. This episode sponsored by Point Me. Want to know the secret to booking flights with points and miles? Let's say you've got 80,000 points, and you're looking at a business class flight to Europe.

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