Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: INTERVIEW WITH LARRY AND KAY WOODCOCK THE DAY BEFORE LORI VALLOW IS SENTENCED

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

This interview with Larry and Kay Woodcock and Dr John Matthias took place on July 30, 2023, the day before Lori Vallow Daybell was sentenced in Rexburg, Idaho. Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and reported with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Hello, everyone. We are so excited to be with our gems today from all over the world. I even see there's someone here from Iceland and with our dear friends, Larry and Kay Woodcock. You are emotionally preparing for this sentencing on Monday of Lori Valladabelle, and it means a lot to us that you'd spend some time with us today. We will be live streaming everyone,

the sentencing of Lori Vallo Daybell tomorrow morning. Kay and Larry Woodcock, it is a big day tomorrow. It is a big week. It's something you guys been waiting for for four years. I'm going to actually hand this over to John now. Dr. John, my better half, has so many questions for y'all. And I'm going to let him ask away. Hi, O. Thank you, John. Thanks for being here, guys. I appreciate it. The last time I was with you guys was when you were interviewing me. We're going to turn the tables a little bit today. Thank you. Just in getting to know you guys, which has been a real pleasure, you know, I know this has been a really long, difficult journey for you guys. I think my first question would be, you know, how do you think that? this entire process has affected you guys.

John, this is something that has been life-changing. I guess the way it affects me the most that I look back and we really have spent a great deal of time looking back at our lives with JJ and what he meant to us. And what this has meant to the world, it's utterly amazing. I think the thing that I've come away with from this the most is never take anything for granted because as great as it is, as fast as it can change.

Tell your loved ones you love them. Show that. Tell you friends that you love them. and just be a good person, do the right thing. And we miss JJ so much. And this is, it's coming to an end. But it won't. It'll never end for us.

And the pain will always be there. I can't imagine it not ever be in there. it's been so prevalent in every minute of our lives for the last four years. So I don't know, I don't know that we'll ever get, we'll get past this, but it'll always be a very thorough spot. Well, they took, they took a big portion of our heart, our soul. And, you know, we're trying. our hardest to live past this.

And we are succeeding. But sometimes it's so difficult that it's unimaginable what they've taken. Not from just K&I, but our families and the world that has just found a place in their heart. to share the love for children and to protect them and to love them and just be good people. And it's been hard, John. You know that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that, right. I know we've been, we've been fortunate to be a part of this journey with you guys for a big chunk of it. and we know how emotional it's been and how difficult.

So I do want to thank you, though, both of you guys, for giving the victims a voice and for fighting for justice as hard as anyone else has, more than anyone else has in this case. And it's really made a difference. Well, without the support that we have from John, Dr. John Yu and from Lauren and just all of our friends.

I don't know how people would go through this. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's horrible. That's, that's all I can say. And we have to live with it every day. We have to live without JJ every day. And thank God we've got the little banks of the world that can somewhat take their place. And we met a wonderful,

I met a wonderful couple today from Utah that's got seven wonderful children and one special needs child. And it's just so easy to understand that family and the emotions that they have. And so for everybody out there, from Iceland to Australia, to Africa, to all over the world, thank you all for your continued support. I'll break breath any day of the week with anybody that supports this.

And I just can't hug enough and I can't shake hands enough to thank everybody. Thank you. What about tomorrow's obviously an important day in terms of this whole process? What are your thoughts about tomorrow? Tomorrow is going to be a cleansing day. Tomorrow will be the day that I locked the door on Lorry Daybelt. And John, you know what I've said in the past about putting things in post office boxes and locking the door. And I have, I just feel like tomorrow is the day that I closed that door on inmate.

And let's go forward with the rest of our life, but never unlocked. that door. I hope you understand. Yeah. Yeah, I understand. What about, have you guys thought about, obviously you've thought about justice a lot in this case, but what, what do you think justice would look like tomorrow? What, what kind of justice are you hoping to get here? Legal justice we're hoping for is three lifetimes. sentences with no parole for the conspiracies,

two lifetimes with no parole for the murders or JJ and Tiley and then whatever the judge deems fit for the social security fraud. I have no idea legally she's entitled to for that.

But so, I mean, just the fact that she'll never be released from jail. from prison. No, I don't even want compassionate release for her because she showed no compassion for the kids. In the last couple of years, I've learned that sometimes they allow people to be released from prison where they're dying, like if they've got cancer or something. And they allow them to go home and die with their family.

Die with their family surrounding them. and the thought of that with Lori is it's unfavorable because she didn't allow the heinousness and the brutality of the murders of Dey and Tiley and Tammy I don't and Charles she doesn't deserve any kind of soothing for her soul no matter what until she dies she needs to come out of prison in a body bag

If all of what you said occurs, if the judge imposes the maximum sentences, there's still other trials out there, obviously, including Charles. So do you feel like would you like to see that trial occur or do you think she'll take a plea deal? Like how do you foresee some of this affecting the future? I don't know as much about what's going on in Arizona because I've been so this this has been our project our pet that our pet that we need it our mission yeah for JJ entirely but so I really haven't I had to just push that aside and I am I can feel I will quickly be talking to Arizona and figuring out how all that's going to work and how it's going to work around Chad's trial and if they're going to offer her anything, just to get into the nuts and bolts of that, of Tross's murder.

So, I mean, I guess I don't know if his will be first or Brandon's will be first. So I don't know. Yeah. What would you like to see happen? I'd like to see her extradited to Arizona. I believe that she will be very unhappy there. The difference in the population, not the population, but just the, I really can't get into it publicly. But anyway, it will be, she won't like it and that's why I want to.

her to be. Wherever she doesn't like, I don't, I want her to be there. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. So this has been a long process, obviously, and we certainly appreciate you sharing some of the lessons you've learned. But have you, have there been any surprises? Every step of the way. You know, my whole demeanor has changed throughout all this because I went from just, you know, running a company and then we sold the company and then we're in the middle of all this and then, I mean, there's nothing. We were blindsided so many times.

It was like we're getting beat with a baseball bat from nowhere. you know, the late we couldn't what was all the stuff when for Boise, the court of Boise, you know, that Larry wasn't a victim and I wasn't a victim. It just all that and on a blank, but it's been, I have been in a survival mode for a lot of years and I mean even before this was released the public, to the media in December of 20, December of 19, we won't get blindsided at home. Like, we learned about Brandon's attempted murder. And then we learned, I mean, we learned about Lori moving out of Arizona. I mean, that was a blind side.

You know, Brandon get an attempt. They tried to kill Brandon. That was a blind side. They just wanted. just one after another after another. And my whole attitude for years has been in a survival mode because I feel I actually felt like I was being attacked in every direction. And I know that I was, I'm combative.

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Morning routine. Little more than when you're on the job. Well, good, for school, contor, and industry.

It is happiness at work from AI products. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we've certainly seen that, Kay, that your struggles

and with both of you guys and we know it's taken a big toll. So we're certainly hoping that that tomorrow will help a little bit as you pointed out,

Larry. What about Oh, I was just going to say that I was thinking about some of your struggles And you know, when we first met with you guys in what, 20, 21, I think Yeah, yeah, about two years ago You know, you guys had a lot of anger And I don't want to speak for you, but I mean, it's certainly understandable Right, I think I would have had at least as much anger as you guys did.

I'd probably have more. There's a whole host of feelings we've been through, still feel and still struggle with. And just there's so many things. It's one thing to lose a loved one naturally and versus the way this has happened. And that is because that is out of the natural order of life. it's just you just could never expect that

I would have never expected this out of Lori so I mean just just the mirror just trying to wrap your head around it and then you have to also know that you cannot ever probably ever know exactly what all happened and then

like I did not watch the autopsy photos and I didn't I was not in the courtroom for that and I won't be in the courtroom for that at Chad's trial and um and I can't speak about Charles's odd don't think I'll be in the courtroom for that either but there's just some things you can't unsee and from my mental health I felt it was best for me just to not see it and so but anyway trying to wrap your head around all this and and and yet know that you can't know everything or don't know everything because there's so many unanswered questions.

that nobody will ever know. And so you just have to be willing to accept what you have, what you know, and that's as good as it'll get. And okay, you know, you have to be okay with that because it is what it is. John, you know, one of the things that Kay just mentioned was her being somewhat unable to view the photographs and going into details on the murders.

I, on the other hand, I want to see the details. I want to see the pictures. I want to see how that occurred. And the ebleness that it takes to do what I've seen and to never give any credence whatsoever. whoever, to the evil that was done to Lori, I mean done to JJ, to Tiley, to Tammy, to Charles, just to always remind myself how vicious and mean and unbelievable. And cruel.

This, every step of the way, this was cruel. That people really can be. And I want to never have compassion in any way for those people involved in that. And so consequences, I'm just the opposite. I want the details. I want to see it. I want to put my fingers on the photographs where they bruised Tammy, where they bruise JJ. I want to see the crime, the photos, where they shot Charles,

because that will always, until I'm at a point that I can turn this loose and forgive everybody. Right now I can't. And I'm trying. I truly am trying, John. and but I have to see those details because I want to, I want them to suffer the way that the victims suffered in this. And at some point in time, I probably will forgive them because that's the Christian things that we should do. But for right now, I'm setting that aside. And I really hope that these people have the most miserable life that they can go through.

And just hope at one time some of them will think, what if, what if I'd have done this? What if I hadn't been involved in this? What if I happen to go along with this? Are you talking about the circle? I'm talking about the circle. I'm talking about everybody involved in this. For what? Putting up with Laurie and Chad's bullshit.

That's all it is. So you got a little attention, you know? So you got a little attention in your life. So that was worth being stupid enough to believe it. Nobody could have believed all that, right? Nobody. Yeah. And the other part is how much difference would it have made in the lives of the

two prisoners, the two inmates, had they just done right things, the righteous things. And people could have remembered them all for Lauren being a, for Lorraine being a good mama, for Chad being a good daddy, a good grandfather. A good husband. For what? What? It doesn't even make sense, John. It was all about sex.

money second money it doesn't and I just I do I stay infuriated about it and I really don't want to I hope one day that I don't yeah that I'm past this but right now until tomorrow I know that the outcome of this the finalization of it I just I can't forgive them right now yeah Well, I want to be respectful of time here. I know you guys have appointments all day and probably all day tomorrow. And so I know we have running out of time here. So I'll just wrap up with a final question or thoughts from you guys.

So, you know, we've talked about the importance of mental health. And Kay, you're you have been in the process. I don't know. Can I mention the foundation? You're in the process of starting a foundation to, to address mental health issues. And I think that's really important in this case, obviously. Do you have any thoughts or takeaways about how this could have been prevented?

Yes. Yeah, I know how to be prevented. If when Charles was asking for help from law enforcement, if he would have been heard and not just, He was dismissed. Dismissed, thank you. That's the word of them involved. If he had,

if when Lori had gone to that place for a mental health evaluation, again, though, I think she was, I think she is absolutely a chameleon and can be whatever color, whatever, whatever,

personality she wants for whatever, whatever she needed to do to get through that she did because she's good she is very good and I mean at fooling people so I don't know that that could help but I do believe that

whoever the law enforcement and also I've also wondered throughout all this and most more late recently but who gives temple recommends to people to go every day Lauren do you know the answer to that

And multiple times. No, but this, I've never known of anyone that's gone every day. I don't know. I don't even know. New territory for me. Whoever those people are. Yeah. Are absolutely complicit.

Oh, my gosh. Or absolutely. Complicit might be a good word. They didn't. Complicit in this. There are a lot of people. There were a lot of people that did not see or did not want to see. even the turn to blind eye to what was really going on you have someone fanatical when most

people go once a month so once a year it to someone going yeah some never well it's not just once a day it's going all day multiple times a day how do you do that and kids can't be and kids can't be in the temple so it's strange yeah so there's there's see whoever that is whoever those people are, they're totally in the dark. They, they are absolutely part of this. They are and it is, it's sickening. Jeannie says temple workers should have been flagged someone going every day is not in one. Heck yeah. Absolutely. I mean, is this a common thing? No. Or is it a common thing, Lauren, that we just don't know. It's not. I've never heard of it. So, I mean, there you go. There, there you go that i think was probably a bigger flag i don't know it's just you know john i you and i

have talked so many times and i i have said for generations in general as long as i can remember life is fairly simple as a choice and a consequence i never understood that until this occurred And then with that, I never allowed, I just didn't think about it being a generational choice in a consequence. How far back have people allowed mistakes to happen and not paid attention to problems and let it continue on from one generation to the next generation to the next generation. Yeah.

And so now it's not just a choice and a consequence. Now I call it a generational choice and consequence. Yeah. Culpable. That's the word I was looking for a while ago. I know. I pinned that. I thought she got it.

Love is a four-letter word. She has our answer. I'm like, that's it. Thank you, love. Right, right. Just later, hey, better late than never. I want to acknowledge what what Larry said. I think that's really profound, that it is, it is generational.

Thank you, Larry, for sharing that. And that means that maybe all of us should be more alert to when there are, when we see serious problems. Maybe we should see those, some of those as red flags. Because as you point out, like, it's not just law enforcement. It's not just mental health professionals looking deeper into something. It's families. And families notice. seem problems that occur generation after generation, right? And certainly it seems like there was

some of that here. Yes, absolutely. Make better choices. Come on. Life simple, nobody's getting out free and at least do something while you hear that is positive. Yeah. Yeah. And Julia says if you see something, say something. If there's ever just something that feels uncomfy. Yeah. Listen to that. People have got to speak up, you know, offer help. Nothing else. Just say, hey, is there anything in life that I can do for you? You know, I mean, just take care of each other. Do the right thing.

Come on. It's difficult. Thank you. We're so honored that you came to talk about this. It's been a long wait. So thank you. Thank you again. Thanks, guys.

We appreciate it so much. Love y'all. We love you, too. We'll see you. Take care, guys. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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