Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Interview with Lori Vallow Daybell's Brother and Uncle- Adam Cox and Rex Conner

Episode Date: June 30, 2023

Lori Vallow Daybell has been convicted of murdering her two children. Her brother Adam Cox and her Uncle Rex Cox sit down with hosts John and Lauren Matthias to discuss the crimes that have rocked their family. A forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. While Lauren attended Lori's trial and plans to attend her sentencing in July of 2023, the hosts continue interviewing and investigating what's Hidden, just as they have been for three years. You can get caught up by listening to our full 'Beyond the Veil" season. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias is an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime. DISCLAIMER: The views of our guests/interviewees, do not reflect the views of Hidden True Crime. Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. We are grateful to be interviewing two members, of Lori Valo Debel's family. The Lord is gathering his people. She wanted validation that she was somebody special.

He is calling people to the 144,000. Family members and friends and anybody that would listen to her. She got Alex involved. I mean, did you see Lori and Alex have an inappropriate relationship? It's certainly something that's come up a lot. She implies that she's had a really bad past and a really difficult childhood. but maybe it was something from your family, or I don't know. That's just one small thing that started this whole transition of Lori going down this road.

Help us understand what you said in that police interview. Did she and Alex plot to hurt her ex-husband? Gosh, it's just, there's something that's really wild. Adam did say to me before this started, you know, you can ask me anything. I'm an open book. and you have allowed us to do that. You're giving us that voice. We really appreciate it.

Hello, Hidden Gems. We have a very special podcast episode for you today. One that I would say John and I have been hoping for and waiting for and wanting for three years. We are grateful to be interviewing two members of Lori Valo DeBel's family, her brother, Adam Cox as well as her uncle Rex Connor. Rex is Lori's mother's brother. So Janice Cox's brother. Is that right, Rex?

And you grew up, your daughters. I'll let you explain it a little bit more, but your daughters are Lori's cousins. They grew up and you were close. Thank you, first off, both of you for being here today as we have been discussing this case for three years. we were honored to have a Daybell family member join us finally. And Heather Daybell was such a valuable guest on our channel,

telling us so much of what we've wanted to understand when it comes to this case. And we're so honored now to have members of Lori's family with us today to answer questions. So thank you. So very much. Rex, why don't you, I think a lot of us know who Adam is. And we have questions for Adam. But why don't you, Rex, really quickly share how you're related to Lori and your background with Lori. And then I also want to say Rex and I did meet at the trial.

You were there. You were along with Summer and Colby who appeared as witnesses and shared testimony. You were there with your family at the trial. Tell us a little bit about why you decided to attend, too. I attended the trial with three of my four daughters. They needed that experience. They've basically grew up with Lori, not in the same town, but a lot of interaction. One of my daughters, the one that didn't attend was Lori's nanny.

She was the nanny for Tiley and JJ and more of a friend for Colby, you know, close to the same age. But they were close. So we are not distant family. I never have tried to distance myself from this at all. Growing up, we grew up in the same town. as the Cox's, as a favorite uncle, of course. Always known as the favorite uncle. Right.

And so it spent a lot of time with them. Lori was very little when I went away to college, and so I wasn't as much in your daily life. I didn't go to Little League games like I do to the Atom or go to basketball games and things. But still, when I was in town, we were close. So I'd say close family, and I say that just to point out I'm not distancing myself, not to say I know more than anyone.

Like everyone else, none of us have been in the heart or the mind of Lori, so I don't pretend to know that part of her. I don't pretend to know her in the last five years. That's the last time I spent time with her. My wife and I stayed with her when we went to Hawaii. She has a wonderful, she and Charles were a wonderful host. We stayed in JJ's room. He wasn't excited about it, but we stayed in his room and had a great time.

There are tremendous people. So Janice, her mother, my sister and I have always been close, so close family. And so both Adam I have known and loved Lori since sedation is born. And none of that excuses what she's done. Sure. Thank you for sharing that. How are you both doing right now? And maybe my psychologist husband can voice that question a bit better.

But we're in between two major things. Your sister, your niece was just found guilty of murder of her own children. And she's about to be sentenced. She hasn't been sentenced yet. How are you both doing? Go ahead. to be honest with you from you know when all this started it's just been a world win don't know how to feel i feel like i've been in shock for a long time um so i'm sure that

i need therapy and part of the reason we're doing writing a book together me and rax and we're doing a podcast together is for therapy um i'm not sure that you know, how much I need with therapy, with getting my feelings out or all that. But I can tell you this, I'm definitely not the same person. My personality, I feel, has changed over the last four years. I used to be super happy and fun and funny and just easy going. And over the last four years, I can look back and see that I literally am not the same person. So it's definitely changed me.

And I don't think anyone in the family, I'll talk about me specifically, but we're all going through the process. As everyone is and everyone's doing it differently, we don't know how to navigate this process. We don't know what the right demeanor is, what the right treatment is for each of us. In my immediate family, myself and my children, my wife, we talk things through. And we do that a lot. In the extended family, we talk a lot. Not all family members get involved in that, but Adam and I have been talking about the whole time.

We saw things the same from the very beginning, and we have ever since, so we think we're the ones that have common sense. But we just, we processed a lot. Going to the trial was a great opportunity to process. My daughters had to be there. I said, I'll go along to share expenses. down you need to go to the trial. Oh my goodness, I was an idiot. I was so glad I went into the

trial and had that experience. Not an enjoyable experience by any stretch, but what an eye-opener it was. And so that's been part of it. So yeah, we all need to sort through it still. It's going to be a lifelong process and everyone's going to do it a little bit differently. We're just very supportive in the family and the trial made me aware and supportive or want to be supportive, anyone that needs to work through this. And I think everyone touched by it needs to. To some degree, doesn't it offend all of us? Isn't it hard for everyone who hears that a mother murdered her children and hid their bodies at a pet cemetery the way they did it? That offends everyone, doesn't it? Don't we all have to try to make sense and try to heal from

that? Big grief. That's tough on anyone. Everyone, I think. Rex, what you just said, doesn't that offend anyone? Yes, there is a story actually that

Brian Enten, reporter, Brian Enton shared on our podcast about a moment at the trial where you, Kay and Larry Woodcock, Tammy Daybell's aunt, me,

I was there, I believe Justin Lum, came into the room. We were all in the same room breaking bread. There was a break. We were waiting for the verdict and the Woodcock's invited us all into the room. I remember you were standing. You offered your seat to me. But Brian Enten brought this moment up on our podcast as a moment that he won't forget in the trial because he said, it's like everybody came together. And I think what you just said shows that like everyone's offended by this. It doesn't matter if you're related to Lori, if you are JJ's grandparents,

if you're a reporter like I was or Brian Enten or Justin reporting on it or Tammy Daybell's aunt, like we're all offended, we're all hurt and we're all trying to make sense of this. So thank you for sharing that. And that was a moment that reporters won't forget all of us in that room together sharing lunch, sandwiches, I believe. Yeah, I just had a quick. follow-up for Adam here on, of course, the therapist in me has to follow up on this question.

But, Adam, you mentioned that you feel like you've changed quite a bit. Could you maybe talk a little bit about how you've changed? So there's really kind of a couple questions here. How do you think you've changed? And have you thought about what led to some of those changes? I just feel like I'm not as my outlook on life, I think has changed. Because when this all happens to your family, this is the kind of stuff that you see on TV that happens to other people's family. There is no way in my, on a million chances that I think that anything like this would have ever happened with my family. So with that perspective, I just feel like there's some days that I don't even want to get out of bed. And some days I wake up and I feel like, oh my gosh, I hope that was a nightmare.

And I wake up and I realize that that was not a nightmare. So where I used to before this happened, wake up, I had, you know, all of this kinds of like fun things in my mind to go do and this. I don't know. I just feel like it's just been a lot to. take in and I mean I still try to wake up every morning and go to work or or go play basketball or pick a ball and try to live my life like I'm supposed to live it but I just feel like I don't have that that that that fun or that you know for something that's that I used to have that I don't feel like I haven't and I don't know what that is so it not to

not to put words in your mouth here, but I mean, it does sound a little bit like you're describing some type of depression, maybe. Yeah, I think anybody in my situation would be depressed. I've never been a depressed person. Yeah. So I don't know what it's like to be depressed, but when I tell people how I feel, they're like, oh, well, you're suffering from depression. Well, maybe that's the case, but I don't know. Right, right. Okay. Yeah. Well, thanks for, Thanks for sharing that. It makes sense. It does make sense. Adam, you know, throughout this case, you've been, to our listeners,

so to our listeners, our gems, as we call them, right-hidden gems, you've been sort of a sane voice in the mix. Even when you haven't wanted to be, even when FOIA documents are released with your voice and you didn't think that those would ever be released with the public, and then, you know, we're all listening to what you're saying. You know, you stood up for Charles. You, the day he was killed that trip, you, according to a FOIA document, a telephone call that we, of yours that we have on our YouTube channel, you told police that they needed to investigate Charles's death, that they're concerns. Where are you now with the family, I guess?

That's my first question. Then maybe I want to ask about each of these experiences if that's okay. Sure. Well, going back to when all this was going down, you know, I saw a change in Lori and I tried to go to my parents and my sister and say, there's something wrong with Lori. Somebody's got to help her. And I don't know.

I've never lived by my family because I've been in radio and I've traveled to the United States and working different radio stations. but all my family seems to like Alex and Summer and Lori all like live to you know close to each other. So I feel like when I do come to visit or whatever that, you know, I noticed some changes in Lori, the things that she was saying. So I just, you know, stress some things to my mom and dad and it's like, hey, you know, something's wrong with Lori. We got issues, you know. And they're responsible as well, she's a grown person. You can't just force her to go to a therapist or whatever.

So they kind of just blew it off. And so once Charles died, that's where everything split. And what I mean by that is I had come to town with Charles had flown me out to Arizona so him and I could get Lori in front of a church member who is called the state president just to have him talk to her and have her tell him the things that she was telling me and telling Charles. Because I think she was lying to, obviously we found out that Lori lied to everybody about everything for a long time. And a lot of people believed her lies, including people at church or even therapists that she went to and she got cleared by saying that she's fine. So I think she deceived a lot of people.

But the intent that Charles had told me is like, Lori goes to the temple. every single day for five hours. And there's something wrong with that. And there's got to be a balance in life. If you go to the gym and you see a guy that's been there eight hours and he's a big muscle guy, you know that he's not in balance. Same thing with person who's on the couch for eight hours reading a book. They're not doing anything physical.

They're out of balance. Same thing with Lori going to the temple for five hours every single day. You're supposed to go to the temple once a week for an hour. If that, yeah. If that, I mean, once a month would be great. But when you start going down that road, and then she got the cable, took off. She quit watching cable TV because she didn't want any bad things coming out of the TV.

So she really went to an extreme. So with that behavior, Charles was like, something is wrong with her. Now, if we can get her temple recommend taken away, then I think that she can snap out of this. That's what Charles told me. I was like, whatever I can do to help. So Charles started calling everybody in the family before this happened. And so why he was telling everybody, you know, hey, Lori's got some stuff going on. We need to, you know, Lori told everybody in the family.

family to cut Charles off. And everybody did except for me. Because I, first of all, I think anytime somebody says cut somebody off, that's a red flag. Why are we not listening to two sides of a story? Why are you only listening to one side? So I listened to everything Charles said and everything he said made sense to me. So I continue to be Charles's outlet for him because everybody else was cutting him on. So that was the plan was for us to get Lori in front of the state president and have a conversation.

Obviously, none of that ever happened. So when Charles actually died, that really cut it. Because I told my mom and dad, Lori and Alex murdered Charles. Now, I didn't have any facts. I didn't know. Just the feeling that I had in the way Charles died and all. these things and nobody wanted to listen to anything i had to say apparently lorry lied to everybody in my family saying that me and charles and brandon and my son were out to kill lori

so lorry started this whole thing where she was telling people hey whatever was happening to her whatever she was doing she was blaming other people of that happening so um so that at that point my family and I were I they cut me off they kicked me and my son out of their house we went back to to Kansas and at that point I was feared for my life I've watched you know through the window I didn't know what was going on because I felt like Alex killed Charles and he could come kill I felt that they were up to something crazy and I didn't know really any of the the story behind it so yeah I was cut off from my family and and you know they again they cut Charles off and then once a again, Lori's command was, don't talk to Adam. Cut him off. So I was cut off.

Are you doing better now? I mean, your family's been through so much since then. Are you guys Yeah. Well, I moved to St. George to take a radio job. It was the craziest thing because there was three other radio stations, cities that I could have went to. And I chose St. George in the radio station. Well, my parents lived here. And I thought, oh my gosh, this is not going to be good. My parents lived there. My wife at the time was like, I'm never going to move there. I don't want to be around your family. I'm done. So we ended up getting a divorce. But I think that me moving here for the first eight months, we were still not talking or acknowledging each other. And once they found the kids, Uncle Rex had called me and said, hey, let's,

go talk to your mom now because now there's proof that the kids are dead so rex was a came over and picked me up and took me to my mom's house and he was kind of a mediator between my mom and dad and me as we were trying to figure out and mend all the different things so that's when about eight months after living here i started talking back to him and my sister summer we started talking again as well. So we're still doing that. I mean, my thing is I was telling Rex, I have to forgive people because I can't live with hate inside me or just kill me and tear me up. So me forgiving and trying to move on is the way that I feel like I have to survive. It makes sense. It also makes sense that Rex is a family mediator. I'm seeing that. I'm seeing that trend. John, anything you want to say?

I have more questions for Adam. But the way John and I divide it. He's sort of the emotional guy, right? And I'm more of like, let me get this fact. And I want this detail. But John, anything you want to say? Well, I guess when you, when you talk about it that way, Adam, do you feel like you, have you, if you guys fully repaired your relationships or is there still some distance there with your family? Well, it's never going to be how it was. because before all of this we were just such a tight group yeah um i think that i try to see my parents every sunday we go to we have dinner sometimes they come to my pickleball games my sister summer i've been to her house a couple of times and we're trying to repair everything but it's it's just

not going to ever be the same um and at the time i was like i don't know who to trust i don't know who is doing what i didn't know who was involved with what so i just you know, and then when the facts come out, my mind just starts wandering again and trying to figure all this. But I think because of how hurt I was about being cut off, it's really hard for me to go all in again. Yeah, that makes sense. And this, I guess this would be a question for both you guys, Adam and Rex. But, and maybe you can't speak to it. But how did your family react to the verdict?

to the outcome of that trial. And I want to point out, Jerry, and no, no, you guys did not attend. Rex attended with your daughters. And then, of course, summer was there for a couple of days, as was Colby. They were testifying.

I just want to preface John's question with that. Yeah, well, I don't, I don't mean how did they react at the moment of the verdict. I just mean in general, is it, was it something, do you feel like the family was kind of prepared for that outcome? or oh oh yeah we all everybody who's we're all we all understand what lory did and and Alex and Chad we understand exactly what they did and there's no excuse for any of it and none of us

thought think that you know you're either going to get the death penalty you're going to be in life for for you know prison life for the rest of your life but those are the that's what happens to you when you do what they did so we're all 100 people percent in on that. And none of us think that it's safe to even have Lori out of jail because of her mindset of how she's thinking. She's like, you know, so I think at least for me, what about you? Yeah, I think everyone in the family, recently I've talked with a lot more of extended family members. And first of all, no one was surprised by the verdict. No one feels like Lori shouldn't get that verdict because that's the worst one there is.

Yeah. If there were a death penalty around the table, people were mixed with that, but not not because they were opposed to the death penalty, but some family members, I'm sharing something that family members might not lie, so I won't say who it is, but they said, no, the death penalty's too good. She needs to wake up every day with what she did for the rest of a long, miserable Can they transfer her to a prison in Turkey? Was the question? Just because that might be worse.

So, no, the family wasn't surprised. And while everyone loves Lori, love that's unconditional, but relationships are not. Relationships are conditional. Everyone recognizes what she did and that she needs to experience the consequences of what she did. Okay.

Thank you. Adam, one thing John and I discuss a lot on our podcast, and I'm sure you've heard it discussed, you can say any, the Netflix documentary talked about it. Everything that really delves into this crime discusses it. Whether Lori changed or whether Lori was always this person. And you mentioned with the Charles, you know, the day Charles was. that weekend, how she was lying to everyone, even people in the ward, and nobody really understood that she was always lying. And, and you know, this is a question for Rex to Rex. I also want to point out

that on Chris Cuomo, News Nation, it was one of the shows we were on back to back. And you stated that you didn't believe that she was just completely brainwashed, that you felt that this was the perfect storm. And Adam, you've said that. So just setting the stage here for this question, Um, on the, on the police, uh, it wasn't an interview. You called the police, Adam, but on the police call, you are telling people a little bit about your sister. You're saying this needs to be investigated. Charles needs to be investigated.

And you even mentioned that she might have plotted possibly you implied to kill Joe Ryan. Um, that's something that people have always wondered about. And I'm also wondering, I mean, is this something that you, did you start to see that your sister had always been this person? Or do you feel like she changed? I also know that Zach in his interview with Justin Lund mentioned that she did shift and there was some change in her reading material. And John and I have seen that in evidence that there was definitely some changes in her.

But I guess I'm asking two separate questions here now. The broad question is, did she change? Were there things that were always part of Lori? And then the second question is, help us understand what you said in that. police interviewed, did she and Alex plot to hurt her ex-husband? Well, what I remember with Lori coming to the family and being so upset saying that Joe molested Colby and Tiley and that there was proof on his computer and there was a huge debate and and police were involved and all that.

So, you know, as talking with Tiley and talking with JJ when they were kids and stuff, it seemed like that's what happened. Now, I don't know if that actually happened now or not, but at the time, we all believe that that happened. And I think as family members, you know, people, you know, when something really bad happens to a family member by somebody else, somebody's like oh that person's got to pay and so with Lori talking and Alex talking it was like oh yeah they were just like well we need to take him out and you know he doesn't deserve to live

and when you hear stuff like that you don't think that's reality you just think people are blowing off steam and that's in any family or any friendship or anything you've heard those before with other people so I didn't really think anything of it until Alex actually went to a place and tasered Joe, you know, at some point and went to jail for a year for tasering Joe, which then believes that Lori and Alex were in cahoots and had some kind of a plant. So do I think that they did it? I mean, 50% maybe 50% not. I guess the police said that he died of a heart attack or whatever it was. I don't, I mean, I mean, I'm still not 100% convinced of that either.

I don't know how they did it if they did do it, but that's still on the table for me as far as not believing that that was the way that they, because if you think about a pattern, if that was the first thing that happened with Lori, and Lori and Alex are like, oh, we got rid of Joe because of all that stuff, and we got money from it because they were getting money from Joe, was dying. Lori did entirely hurt. Then the next thing is Charles. They killed Charles. Nothing happened to him. They didn't get thrown in jail. The police did a terrible job of investigating that.

They didn't even call me. Three months goes by, I finally had to call them and say, do you guys not want anything? Why wouldn't I be called? I was the last person to talk to Charles when he was alive. I was like, why am I not? Why are you, you know, it was terrible. Anyways, I won't go off that but yeah yeah i get irritated that that happened but i think there was a pattern there and when rex and i started talking about a pattern he's like you know what there is a pat that is a pattern that charles died nothing happened to lorry and Alex and they got away with it and they were getting money again so i feel like if if it did start it could have started with joe not just with Charles because they felt like they got away with Joe, then they got away with Charles.

And I think in Lori's head, as she's saying that, you know, people are zombies and all this stuff, that God is telling her that I'm providing a way for you like Lori talks about in the scriptures, that other God had done that for other prophets and things. So I think when we talk about this, in our podcast, we talk about all kinds of, there's a huge onion. And every time you pill one onion back, there's some. something else behind it with this case. Truthfully.

Yeah. Yeah, there's just, there's a lot. I'm grateful that you're going to be podcasting and I'm grateful to know that, you know, it's you and Rex, both, you're going to be co-hosts, is that right? And by the time we release this interview, your podcast will be up. And so we can, I'll head there for more. I'm looking forward to hearing. I can give you a list of questions people have for you, Adam.

I won't make you answer, Ma, but we'll be going to your podcast to hear more. And I want to say, though, so to kind of clarify that or put this question to rest, when you told police that you were speculating like all of us, well, gosh, there's a pattern that we're all seen. So maybe, maybe not, but police need to know this. Is that fair to say? Yeah, for sure. John, anything you want to say right now? On that issue, I don't really, I think they explained it very well.

I did want to ask the, what's the name it, just so the listeners can know, what's the name of your podcast and where can they find it? The podcast is called Tiley and JJ's Silver Linings, and it will be up on all the podcast platforms probably tomorrow afternoon, the first. just part of the episodes of it. Okay, great, great. Maybe a follow-up on, I think you were getting at this question, Lauren, but, you know, it's something we've talked a lot about between us is how much did Lori change? When did she start changing? Was she that way before?

You know, Rex, you talked about that on Cuomo a little bit, and you kind of said, well, you felt like some of that the term you used was evil some of that evil was there before and then I know Adam you did an A&E show it's been a while

huh but what was that a couple years ago now you did that interview and you really it seemed like you were pretty strong with your opinion that that Laurie was very much a different person after meeting Chad and so you know it's I think people were really

interested in sorting that out. I mean, who is this person and what happened to her? You know, and so maybe you guys could speak to that a little bit. I'll take a good. Your shot that. Adam talked about patterns, and the first time I noticed a pattern was when I received the email from Charles. They sent to several family members saying, hey, Lori is saying weird stuff. Look at what she has. And I looked at the attachment to Charles and it was the version that is in public record now of all the people that are light and dark and what their rating is on the light and dark scale and very prominent people that are light

or dark, etc. And I thought, I know this stuff. This stuff was around back in 1990 and I was had some good friends that got involved with it then and it just, it seems to happen every generation. And it's the same stuff. This chat and his group weren't he even original they just copied stuff from back in 1990 even plagiarized some some of the books and material from the book so it was nothing new to me I said I thought I don't know you know Charles if Charles and I I wasn't in touch with Laurie's I'm part of the cutoff team I'm sorry to say but I did ask Janice I said so what's going on she said oh Lori's found you know evidence that Charles is having affairs etc so

none of us are talking to Charles I thought I had the flashback to Joe Ryan. Like Charles, I like Joe Ryan, like Charles. I like Joe Ryan, like Charles. And, you know, I'd spent some time with them. And when the news came out about Joe Ryan, it was Lori saying, hey, I found kitty porn on Joe's laptop. And, you know, they had this big, ugly fight.

And looked like that was going to happen with Charles and Lori. So back then with the Joe Ryan situation, I just accepted things at face value. And so I said, wow, that's not a pattern. And the more, so right away, the more you look into it, the more you see just everything lining up into a pattern, just like Adam said, okay, she got by with it back then doing the same thing. She's doing the same thing now. And the red flags are all over that situation. So you would question the accuracy of what she was saying. That's the polite way to say it.

I guess the term line has been thrown around a few times. Yeah, same. She's a frigging liar. It's not good on a podcast or do. You stay automatic like you did. Okay. A liar's a liar, right? That's what we.

A liar's a liar. Anything else, John? Sorry, didn't mean interrupt. Well, you wanted to know about Lori's change or whatever? Yes. Like, when, you know, do you feel like there was a specific moment when she started changing? Were there some red flags? You know, you obviously grew up with her.

Were there things way before all this that may have indicated you that there were some problems ahead? or, you know, those types of things. We'd go back to patterns again, again with Lori. You know, in high school, she ended up marrying a guy named Nelson who was known of doing drugs. And he got Lori on drugs, and Lori was doing drugs with him. And they ended up getting married. And my parents are like, you're not marrying him.

She goes, too bad, I already did. And then put a restraining reorder on my parents. And then two weeks or three weeks or four weeks later, she came back to the house and apologized and got out of that marriage. And then ended up marrying another guy named Will who was Lori came to Austin, Texas. I was going to a radio show there. And she said, can I live with you? And I said, sure. So she got a room.

I gave her one of my rooms in my apartment. Well, she worked at the Chess King at the Barton Creek Mall in Austin, Texas. and she met this guy, Will, at the chess king. And next thing you know, she brings him home to my apartment. And I walk in and she's like, hey, this is Will. He's going to live with us. And I was like, what? This is my apartment.

Not anymore. And then Will steps. I was like, don't worry about anything, man. I'll get groceries. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So I told Laura, I was like, that's not going down. So they left. And the end of that story was Will used to abuse her and beat her up all the time.

I remember one time when she was pregnant with Colby, she called me crying because Will had beat her up and she was at a gas station at 2 o'clock in the morning. I came and picked her up. So, and then she ended up marrying Joe and that didn't work. And then Charles and then Charles died. And then I don't know anything about Chad Daybill. I know nothing about him. I didn't even know who he was or anything. So, you know, the pattern of her marrying and doing that's one insecurity.

And when you look at Lori and a lot of people know that Lori was very pretty and had a great personality and all these things. And in my opinion, when I was younger, I was like, she's going to marry an NFL quarterback and live a life. In my mind, I thought, she's just going to meet the best guy and they're going to be married and they're going to be a great couple. That was my impression. And it was completely opposite of what I thought was going to happen. to her. I did I see any signs of her, you know, growing

up, I probably didn't because I didn't really, you know, pay attention if there was signs. Just over the last five years, for me, the change was her reading these books and listening to Julie Rose podcast

and wanting to be special and wanting to be somebody that, you know, that the Lord can call on to do something. She wanted a mission. So she created her own mission because the Lord didn't give her a mission. And so I think little by little by little over an amount of time as she's reading scriptures and then interpreting in her head, how can I make this me? I think she started doing that. And then when she met Chad, it's like pouring gas on a fire. He's like, oh, this is a dark

spirit and this is a light spirit and we've been married before in two different lives and like all this stuff hit her in the head when she was right you know when she was like trying to tell when the end of the world was and when these callouts are going to be and when the lord is coming and I'm special and pay attention to me and then Chad paid attention and gave her even more and then that turned into this disaster most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of

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Ah, now, now has Jonas fastened in a billcue again. Ay, aye, aye. But Jonas just flinaer out the elandet. Morning traffic. Little enclare when you thrives on job. Brainting for industry, school and contor. It is Happiness at Work from AI products. That was pretty well said.

Yeah. Go ahead, John. He answered my question. I guess one thought that came to my mind was, well, there's always been this innuendo or talk. Even in, like in Chad texted Lori. I called him the love text, but he was texting. I'm sure you guys have looked at those about how she was a goddess. Right.

I know. You know, there's a couple of parts in those texts where Chad gives her a blessing and he, like, lays hands on her. And there's this talk of trauma and all this trauma that Lori's gone through. And it's always, to me, it's always been a little bit of a mystery, you know, because it could be, like you just said, Adam. Maybe it was some of the abusive relationship she was in. It seems like she was in a lot of bad marriages. But is there something else? I think there's always this implication that maybe it was something from your family.

Or I don't know. Like it's always been kind of this mystery that seems to keep reappearing about how Lori, she implies that she's had a really bad past and a really difficult childhood. And it's something we've never really been able to make sense of because it's so bad. but would you have any thoughts on that not really I mean like I said me and Stacy and Alex were older and then Lori and summer once we left the house they were you know teenagers so I mean if you're talking about you know starting to do drugs and speed and then you end up with an abusive relationship and get beat up

when you're pregnant and then you find out that and you're believing that your is watching kitty and molested both of your kids and it's your fault that you allowed him to come into the house to molest you That's enough trauma in my head if I'm Lori and that's what she's talking about That's what I would think that she was talking about Okay, yeah, I don't I think we don't we we haven't really known what she's talking about We just know that she sees herself as having having had a difficult life and experience some trauma and That would make sense to me But sometimes it seems like

like there's some implication that maybe it started before that even. I know how old was she when she married? She was a teenager? Yeah, 18, 17 or 18? This is the first time I'm hearing about the drugs, too. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, well, do you know, when was she starting to use drugs? Was it around the time she met her first husband? Yeah, he introduced it to it, I'm sure. Was he LDS? No. Oh, that's interesting, too. I mean. No one. And your parents. Your parents. Couldn't have been thrilled with that.

Well, yeah, and they were concerned. She was doing drugs, and she was with a guy that was a drug dealer. And it's just, yeah, odd behavior. Okay, yeah. Did you? So, but what about, I mean, anything from childhood? I know there's a bit of an age difference, but, I mean, is there anything she could be referencing from prior to that that you can think of?

I don't know. It's always been something we wondered about. I remember one time, I guess one of her teachers, I think I heard my mom say something about one of her teachers in fifth grade maybe molested her because he got arrested for molesting kids at the school or something. So yeah, I mean, I don't know enough about that to comment on it, but I do remember hearing something about that.

That would definitely qualify. That's awful. Yeah. Wow. Interesting. Yeah, we didn't know about that. So, I mean, which isn't to say that it happened, but. Right.

But a teacher that apparently is a convicted sex offender that had interaction with Lori, I guess, raises questions. Thank you for mentioning Julie Rowe. I've also mentioned in our podcast, Mike Stroud. I've mentioned the book Visions of Glory that I read multiple times. I'm very curious of the books. I made a note here, Rex, the 1990s books. I was like, what are those that they copied? And actually, Rex, what are those books before I continue? What the 1990s books? An old man to bring something out of his memory. And it's not thine feeble.

It's just there's so much in there, you know. LDS books, LDS second coming books, or are you talking religious? Not LDS. I think one of the authors of one of them was LDS, but Damon Brinkley wrote a book that I remember well. And that's, I saw it again when I looked at what I didn't read any of Chad's book because I looked through one that caught my eye. but Damon Brinkley and I'm going to have to go back and try to search to remember others

back then. I know Betty Eadie was a big person on near-death experiences, but I don't know that she's connected to what I saw again this time around. I'll have to get back to you on that. Like the groups they attend to prepare people, a voice of warning, they're religious in that sense that the people that would go to there, the people following this movement or whatever you want to call it, most of them have religious background. Most of them were LDS. That's why I knew them. The people I knew that I was friends with that got involved in the group heavily were both members of the LDS church. Okay, just for like the extremist, like stuff that's not necessarily talked about over the pulpit at church. right but people taking people of it eventually this group today that most of them got excommunicated

one of my friends did another one came close didn't get excommunicated and you know he went as far just just funny side story he went as far as cashing in all his investments all the investments for his kids said my kids will never go to college second coming's coming before then so he cashed it all in and very similar to the same group. And I'm not saying everyone that went to prepare people or a vow is like that, but the circumstances are very similar. There's certainly things being taught there consistently. I hear you.

And just to clarify, too, Zach mentioned a bit of the books she was reading in Justin Love's interview and was really interesting. Anything else, Adam, do you want to kind of say that you saw her reading or delving into? Oh, well, you know, she started sending me messages and calling me to start reading these. You have to read this book. You have to read this book. You have to read this book.

And first of all, even though I'm an author of a book, I don't read a lot of books. So I blew Lori up a bunch when she was trying to get me to read these books. And every time she'd send a book to my house, it would just sit there and get a call. Did you read that book? It's so good. I was like, no, I haven't read it yet. And you could hear the disappointment on the other end of the phone of her not because I didn't read the book. And then also with my brother Alex, who got involved with Lori and Chad. He started listening to Mike Stroud podcast. And I was like, I don't know who Mike Stroud is. And they wanted me to go to one of these prepare the people meetings. I was like, look, two hours of church is right at my

limit. I'm not going to go to a four-hour fireside after church for this. And it's like, I'm out. I was out every time somebody tried to invite me to do something, I'm done. I'm out. So I think I disappointed Lori and Alex because I didn't listen to any podcast. I didn't read any books. And because of that, I was in, I didn't know anything. So apparently that's what you know, I guess she would said to other wonders of my family that, oh. She didn't know the deeper, darker sort of teachings that she's

learning in this about portal. Had you ever heard of portals? Portals? Yeah. Yeah, just like in Star Trek. I don't know. I got it. I mean... Well, I'm reading a book right now that mentions Portals, Visions of Glory, and it was written in

2012, so, and I know that that's the book Lori was reading in Hawaii. So it's interesting. you know, when police came to see her. I'm not really into fantasy stuff. So I, if it's a true story about somebody, they were an underdog and they overcame something, I'm all in. But fantasy stuff, I try to, it doesn't interest me that much.

Well, that's a question for John. And maybe that's a question about this whole case or this, this crime too, right? It's based in fantasy that they thought was real. Isn't it, I mean, right, John? Now, this is where I look to him. Help me. understand this, babe. I think that, you know, just in listening to Adam talk a little bit about it, it sounds

like you're much more grounded in facts maybe than some of your siblings, I mean, what that, which is kind of an interesting dynamic. I mean, was Laurie always more kind of involved in fantasy than some of the other siblings? or, I mean, do you remember those types of things growing up? Not really. I mean, my thing with Lori is I think she wanted to be somebody special in the church. And I don't think that she was getting the special things that she wanted. And so I think she made them up.

That she got these. I saw Jesus in the temple or I, me and Moroni, I talked to him and we're married now. Like she wanted validation that she was somebody special. And so I think that's just one of the many things in this onion that me and Rex have been pilling back on her podcast about that's just one small thing that started this whole transition of Lori going down this road and bringing people with them thinking that she was supposed to gather 144,000 people. It's her and Chad's job to do that. She got Alex involved. She got, I guess, all these other people that Chad already had involved. And she was trying to recruit family members and friends and anybody that would listen to her.

So I think she was on a mission to have people go, oh, Lori, you're awesome. I can't believe that you're the chosen one or whatever. But it just, you know. Did you see some of that in childhood? In other words, did you see this need for attention when she was a child? child or, okay, could you talk about the last? Well, the funny thing is, is like, I'm the middle child. I'm on the radio, I need attention too.

But Lori was right to me in the family tree, but she was very into wanting attention. And when you're in a family of five, everybody's starving for attention. And so I think with Lori wanting to, you know, people to notice her or maybe she's more into, like, whatever people say, she'll just go do to please them or whatever. I don't know those facts. But there was one incident where Lori and Summer were out of the front yard. And you know family members, you know, siblings fight all the time. There's always something going on.

So Summer and Lori were known to fight, you know, sometimes. and Summer and Lori were about to fight it. I'm standing out there. I was like, well, what are you guys fighting about? And Lori's like, don't worry about this. I can handle this. And Summer was the baby, and she was a scrapper. She would scratch all my friends that came over and claw their arms.

And, you know, she flipped Rex off when she was, what, three? Two years old. So she was, as a baby, I'm sure she had that whole baby mentality of a family. like, I got to do everything. So her and Lori were about to fight, and they fought before. And Lori told Summer, look, and Lori had just got baptized. And I think this is when she got baptized. She felt more spiritual.

She learned who Jesus was and all this stuff. That she told Summer, if you slap me or hit me, I'm just going to turn the other cheek and you can hit that one too. And Summer welled off and smacked her face. And Lori turned, and you could see that she was not happy about that and said, okay, Summer, that's okay. I'm going to do what Jesus did. And Summer went with the left to the other side and hit her again.

And so Lori walked off crying. But that was something that maybe, you know, back then she was doing something that nobody else in our family was doing. I wasn't going to tell Alex, hey, go ahead and hit me. I'm going to turn my other cheek. Like, that just didn't, I didn't think about that. I probably, maybe I should have, but I didn't. That's a great story. Yeah.

John? Well, and so if it was around the time she was baptized, so she would have been eight. Is that roughly her age at that time, I assume? Yeah. I mean, it actually shows a fair amount of restraint, right? Like, she's. Yeah.

She's able to kind of control. her react, natural reactions to that type of situation. So, yeah, that is interesting. Let me offer something here. Please. Dr. John, you can talk about this combined with what Adam said a little bit earlier. We all have the dark and light voice, but we all have the internal struggle of right and wrong. Lori was very, I think, aware of the light.

And she, I believe, really wanted to be good. There are several instances in her life growing up where she liked this one, where she was really trying to be good. She had good role models around her to do that in the family. And so she wanted to do that. But Adam described it so well, she just took off with this. What was in her mind, it was light. But like all of us, there's dark there. and she just made allowance for the dark to fit it into her fantasy.

Dr. John can talk to us about cognitive dissonance. We all do that. Whatever we want to do something we know isn't right, we adjust our life so it's okay for us. And it fits in. And until we allow our conscience to stop that, we're just going to keep doing it. Well, Lorry had this propensity.

Yeah, the light is the right. thing and just but went out of balance with it and just let that whole story build that whole cognitive dissonance or that all the story she just kept fitting it to fit and fitting it together tell it overwhelmed her and hopefully none of us go that far but we all have that same light versus dark struggle going on within us do we not yeah yeah i agree do you Rex do you remember any interactions with Lori from when she was younger from childhood that stood out for you in terms of attention seeking behavior or you know sort of the thing that adam just talked about i mean any stories there for you and rex your your your daughters were close to her right here so

yeah you were around her a lot yeah they were close family reunions etc like i said one my daughter's babysat for her was her nanny and um they were close but We had a lot of interaction, but when she is younger, we didn't necessarily live by them. So it was more in the teen years and early adulthood that they had that my daughter sat all their interaction. But I can remember early on. The reason I remember this is a family classic. And our family have things that just stories we bring up time and again. And no relate to this because it's something you see.

We all families. Right. It's something you saw on one of the specials. I can't remember which one. But Barry in that special, Lori's dad, talked about kind of longingly, well, I remember the time when Lori said that I was the most spiritual person that she knew. The Netflix. This is the Netflix documentary.

John's in that, and I have this written down as a question. Go ahead. Keep going. Yes. And so the reason I remembered that, the reason it's a family classic is because that is such a joke for all of us. And when it happened, Janice ran around telling all of us to get a big laugh. That would always get a big laugh that Barry was so spiritual. Now, let me say this about Barry.

Barry can show, Barry is the best funeral speaker I have ever seen. Doesn't matter in church, out of church. My goodness, can that man preach a sermon? Okay, so I'm not saying he's bereft of spirituality by any degree, but to say he's spiritual, no one in the immediate family would use that particular description except Lori. So it stood out. But Lori was sincere. She was defending him because Janice was berating him for something.

Who knows what? That wasn't an uncommon thing. And Lori stood up for him, and that's what she said. He's the most spiritual man I've ever known. Wow. So I have an obvious follow-up to what you just said. We both do. Go ahead, John.

Why would you not see him as spiritual? Why is that considered a bit of a family joke? Well, like all of us, there are two sides to bury, and the spiritual part doesn't come out. But when it comes out, speaking at funeral, man is a powerful. Okay. His life isn't the same. He can speak obviously loud and long about the IRS, about the government,

and not the same spiritual contacts, but same training. So we both had those, you know, white and dark strengths and weaknesses. Megan, your cousin Megan mentioned as pontificating your dad, Adam liked to pontificate or talk. And I'll ask you a little bit, actually, about Megan in a little bit later on. And I know that a friend of Lurries in Hawaii told me that Barry would give her blessings. And she liked his blessings and that she felt he was spiritual. So I was going to ask, actually, what Barry may be meant by that sound bite in the Netflix

documentary. So it's interesting. So it's almost like a family. lore or a joke a little bit like a popular story we don't want to say very much right not a joke but because some people have said as John points out that that your dad is really spiritual um that he was a convert to the church of Jesus Christ Lord of Saints and um but but not always is that the way you explain to you Adam I know he has a testimony a strong testimony knows the church is true I know that for a fact

but as everybody you have you have choices to make in life to do whatever you're going to do and he just seems like sometimes it's he can he can be out in left field by himself when he's when we're all in a group talking so that's i think those are the reasons why you know that that makes sense people think that anything else john when it comes to to that i do like knowing that story That's like his one and only sound bite ever. Like that's the only time your dad ever did an interview, and that's the only sound they used. And so that's it.

That's all we've heard Barry say is that Lori thought he was a spiritual giant. So we can dissect that forever. Maybe we should leave some mystery around that. So people will be talking about it. This is for both of you. A lot's been said about the Cox fan. I'll say that, you know, the Cox family. Lori's family of origin, Adam, that includes you.

John and I have, you know, speculated on ourselves and speculated with you. Some things have come out that have been said. One of them is Alex's ex-wife, Debbie, who stated that Lori and Alex seem to have an interesting relationship where they seemed like they were sexual in front of one another. You know, I think that's maybe one of the trends I've seen that there was a lot of open sexuality. Megan mentioned something in an interview too, and I'm going to allow you guys to, if you've seen that interview rebute or give another side to that at all, I want you guys to have that opportunity.

but I guess is there anything I mean did you see Lori and Alex have an inappropriate relationship it's certainly something that's come up a lot I know and there's a lot of things that come up in the media that I just shake my head and go this is just people just this one came up in a FOIA doc this one came up in a FOIA document I don't know where it comes from and I met Deb one time when they first got married, don't really know enough, and I don't want to call her a liar or whatever, but maybe her perception.

I will tell you this, Alex is a comedian. Alex would go overboard with anything, whether it was cursing or sexual innuendos or whatever it is. He was always trying to get a laugh. And unless you knew that, then I guess if it's the first time you ever met Alex

and he was doing something that we all laugh at or he would make fun of my parents having sex one time. You just have to know him. So I'm 100% sure that Lori and Alex never had anything going on. A hundred percent sure. Thank you for answering what the people want to know. I'm not sure she said, that they were actually having a sexual relationship.

I think it was more that they were. Simulating though. She did say simulating. They were acting. It could have been more flirtatious behavior or just very sexualized behavior towards one another. And I don't think the implication was that they were. No, let's make that clear.

Right. So she never said that. Yeah, she never said that they were in a relationship or anything. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, again, a lot of people have extracted that from what she's said. And similar to what Adam said, if you want to talk about inappropriate behavior, yeah, plenty of it, a lifetime of it. But yeah, not the connotation that people have drawn from

that, even Debbie drew from it or inferred, and that people are drawn from that. Oh, maybe those two were sexually connected. I never saw anything closely related to that. No. Well, and this is, and this, This is a great follow-up question to that for both of you. And I know that you're going to discuss this in your podcast that we will definitely be tuning into, John and I will be. But your family's life has been dissected by the media, by podcasters, by John and me, by many people. How do you handle that? How have you been handling that?

I mean, I guess you might be depressed, according to John, but how are you doing? Like, how is that? I'm not diagnosing, by the way. He was not diagnosing. He's just saying it sounds like. I asked him about. Yeah. Well, this is, I mean, this whole time this has been going on.

I've tried to avoid interviews. I've had every TV station and every person try to reach out to interview me. And the only reason I did the 2020 thing on ABC was because they said I could tell my story. And it wasn't a, you know. And with that, not just telling my story, but I could express myself however I wanted to express myself about what was going on. And then I could, you know, do that. But there's been people that send me Facebooks and emails and I don't know how they get my information, but they do. And I've had people say, you're part of this.

You've been too quiet. You haven't said anything. You're not interviewing with people. And it was like, until I know all the facts. I don't want to just go on and start saying all these things that I think happened, which, by the way, everything that I felt was happening was actually happening. So anyways, with that, that's one of the reasons that Rex and I now are doing a book together and doing this because there's so many holes in this story and there's so many things that people

want to know because this story of Lori and Chad and Alex is so like, You can't write fiction like this. It just doesn't come out. So there's so many people that are affected by it that I feel like now I was avoiding everybody. First, you know, with all the emotions, embarrassed, hurt, depressed. You know, you can go on with a million emotions and I had them all, all for like three or four years. So I've never had that before. I have been the happiest person.

I've had the best life. these things, but then that is just like somebody just threw a ton of rocks on top of me. So that's why I've been really trying to not pay attention, sorry, to your podcast, or to interviews, or to stories, or go to the court or be involved. I just can't take it. So I've been staying away from it. But now I feel like we're starting to get to the end of this, where hopefully once this is all said and done, we can heal more from it and help others to heal and help others to heal from it. Thank you. One thing John and I have learned through this podcast. Well, I mean, John,

John did this work before. You know, I was a journalist covering crime and he's a forensic psychologist who assess his criminals for a living and assess his risk. He agrees with you guys, by the way. Lori might be kind of a risk right now with her beliefs. But he would be if she got out. I agree. But, and I don't even know where I was going with this. I think one thing John and I have learned, that's what I'm going to say, is that victims have reached out to us, that a lot of the people that listen to true crime are not the people that are just like, oh, I want to hear all the nitty-gritty details. They're actually people wanting to heal.

There are people trying to process this the same way you two are trying to process it, the way you two are saying, hey, let's start a podcast. hey, let's write a book. Like, let's work on healing. I just want you to know that you're not alone. And I do believe that you will be able to help people. When John and I started this podcast during the pandemic, it was simply to just help make sense of the unthinkable,

the unfathomable. And what I've learned through doing it is a lot of people that are listening are those that have been victims of crime or no people. And that, as you said right away in this, this podcast, Adam, that you never thought your family would be affected by this. You never, this is what you see in the movies. And so I do want to tell you that there is a need for victims and so many millions of people that are affected by crime to be able to know that they can, they're not alone.

So in that sense, thank you. I think you're doing a good thing to talk about it. And thank you for trusting us to come on. because that's what we want to do is just let you both share your story and your truth and ask some hard questions. So, Adam, I think one question that's had been, another question that's been on everybody's mind for three years is Alex. And Alex's death, we learned a lot more about your brother in trial.

we learned that there was perhaps a traumatic brain injury when he was younger from a car accident and that he seemed to be a true believer according to all the testimonies in trial of Lori's teachings, Chad's teachings, this belief system, whatever it is. But his death remains very suspicious. It was deemed natural. I want to clarify that for everyone listening that it was pulmonary. ambulism, two pulmonary embolisms, I believe. But it was brought up in trial in an interesting way. The patriarchal blessing, the quasi-patriarchal blessing that Chad Dayball gave your brother,

did imply that he had no one to go to the other side. There's definitely a lot of suspicious things surrounding your brother's death. Do you have any thoughts about that? Yeah. about what you think it was, if you think it was natural or something happened to your brother. Yeah, we actually are doing a whole podcast segment on just my brother, just because there's so much stuff there. But I suspect that there was something else that happened. And I won't go into details about it now,

but what makes sense to me is that, you know, something else happened to me. He didn't die in natural causes. Okay. I don't know if the two of you have listened to Megan Conner's, Megan Connor's interview on our channel with me. And if you haven't, then I can't ask you to share your side of the story because we are very much like both of you, we want to hear every side.

But she did share a few stories. Rex, did you listen to it at all? No. But let me comment on it. The reason I didn't. I love Megan. So it wasn't from... She loves you.

Good. It wasn't from lack of interest. And I know she, some family members are upset. I know she's railed on different people and different things. I don't think of it as two sides of the story. I like to allow everyone their own perspective, their own experiences and their perspective from those experiences, including Megan. And, you know, I'm sorry if she offended or people got offended. from it, but I appreciate anyone that is involved in this whole mess, this whole tragedy, that engages and says whatever they say about it, whether I like it or not, the fact that they're involved provides some healing for us some way. And so I didn't listen to details because I didn't need to because I know I love Megan. I would have said, okay, that's her perspective. I wouldn't have been

offended by it. And so I didn't feel the need to listen, to hear a side, to mediate. I'm fine with Megan being Megan. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. And I value your belief of everybody sharing their truth. That's what Hidden True Crime is about as well. John, Rex, you know, your daughters were close to Lori as far as I, you know,

You know, you kind of mentioned before they almost, I mean, they looked up to Lori. One, as you mentioned, was it was a nanny to, to, is it JJ and Tiley both or just JJ? J.J. and Tiley. How are they coping? How is your family coping? How are you dealing with this? We're all a mess, individually and collectively. You know, so they're seeing counselors and they're working through it like we all are.

So I won't paint a rosy picture about that because how can you? We just don't know how to get all the way through it. So we're all working through it. Them included, each one of them had their individual ways, but collectively, especially the four daughters, are an incredible support group to each other. Their mom's involved with them. I mean, their mom knew Lori.

She and I aren't married, but she knew Lori, she knew the situation. So they have a good support group going. I try to be a resource to them too, but we're unless I'm working through it like everyone. John, do you have any other questions? I have some more, but I'm just going to pull up and decide what I want priority wise.

Yeah, I'm just, I'm looking at the time. So I think if you have some final questions and you want to get to timely. Yeah, I would like, yeah, you know, As I mentioned earlier, the name of your podcast honors, JJ and Tiley, the two children victim in these crimes and this tragedy. I feel like the public hasn't been allowed as many memories of Tiley as they have for JJ, simply because, as you mentioned, Adam, the way that you coped and others in your family

coped is to not give interviews, to kind of lay low, to protect yourselves during this process. The Woodcocks have chosen to be a voice and they knew their little grandson, JJ, better than Tiley. Could you share a little bit about Tiley for us today, both of you, actually? Well, Tiley, as a little girl, was a little fireball. I remember I would, I would kiss her cheeks. And then she goes, you don't do that. I said, okay, I'll take it off. And she goes, okay.

And she put her cheek out, then I get another kiss to take the first kiss off. And then people will be like, you know, he just kissed you twice. What is going on? And so, but as she grew up, she became, you know, a really good member of the church. She took her being in young women serious and she read scriptures a lot too. And she became more less fireballish as she was as a young girl, as you would think as a teenager you would get like that. But she got sweeter as she got older, which was great. My last memory of Tiley, we talk about in our podcast, I saw her alive at my mom and dad's house.

when my mom and dad kicked me out. Tiley was there. And so I just feel like she wanted to tell me something. And we'll talk about that in the book. We'll talk about it in our podcast. But there was something in her eyes and the way that she left that I felt like she maybe knew more than what she was saying. So I'll leave it at that. Sort of kind of continuing.

That was a question I had with Zach briefly mentioned. And to Justin Lom, is that sort of a similar moment? I'll look forward to hearing you share that story. Thank you. Rex. I just love Tiley as a teenager is what I'll focus on, because the last time I saw it was when we stayed with him in Hawaii five years ago in the thick of her teen years.

Tiley had a lot of medical problems, which was difficult. And the way my wife and I viewed it being over there, we just viewed it as she's just turning into a strong, spunky human. Just the right amount of kind of teenage attitude to make it fun for everyone that's not her parents, to watch her, to observe her. And I will say both Charles and Lori reacted just exceptionally well to her, to her being. the times that she was obstinate to sweet, you know, and everything in between as teenagers can be. And as Adam described, she was becoming more and more sweet than that. But she just had the right mix for people to enjoy her as an individual. And I can't think of much about her where you say, well, yeah, she's a teenager that's typical. She wasn't quite typical in any way.

and I say that very positively. She wasn't, there's nothing negative there I can think of. Thank you. Yeah, she reminds me of myself. When I see videos or little clips of her, I could, I was a pretty sassy teenager myself. I'm sure my husband can't imagine that. He's a good word. Yeah.

I don't know about it. Yeah. Thank you. Tell us again, the name of your podcast. We will be listening. And it is, by the time this interview hits Hidden True Crime, it will be out, it will be published, and people can listen to multiple episodes. Tell us the name one more time.

It's Tiley and JJ's Silver Linings. Thank you. And you can find that wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for, you know, I want to give you credit, Adam. I've wanted to interview you for a long time. Before I knew who Rex was, thank you. thank you for doing this together gentlemen but um i want to say that adam did say to me before this started you know you can ask me anything i'm an open

book and you have allowed us to do that and i appreciate that john is there are there any last questions you want to say thank you i want to say thank you i appreciate taking the time to do this and and for being so open and for for putting out a podcast and a book in the world that that will help a lot of people so thank you for doing that Well, thank you for giving us the voice that you mentioned that we are being. You're giving us that voice. We really appreciate it. One last question.

And Adam, as you've promised me that we can do another one. This is not going to be our first collab, right? This is our first. It will not be our last. So I'll lay this out. I have a lot of questions about that Nelson marriage and about the drug use. People have speculated there was maybe drugs later on with Chad. I don't know how you feel about.

that and then I have also heard a rumor. Well, we'll get to that. How about that? I have heard some rumors when it comes to the Nelson marriage. Maybe next time you can answer some more questions. How about that? Good. I'll do my best. Yeah. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you so much for being a guest. We'll see you.

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