Hidden True Crime - Beyond the Veil: Interview with Netflix 'Sins of our Mother' Director Skye Borgman

Episode Date: December 6, 2022

Dr. John Matthias appears in the Netflix Documentary "Sins of Our Mother" and today we talk to our friend, Director Skye Borgman about the recent documentary that is already making waves on Netflix. We also talk about the recent arrest of Colby Ryan. (Colby's charges have been dismissed.) You can also watch this interview, and see some of the visuals discussed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Q3i4ocu_I To see Dr. John's other insight on the case, head to our Podcast playlist. To see our other interviews about the Daybell case, head to our Interview playlist on YouTube. TO DONATE, PLUS BONUS CONTENT AND EPISODES): https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime DONATE: https://www.paypal.me/hiddentruecrime With your generosity, let's see how far we can go together to reinvent the true crime genre. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. Dr. John Matthias is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with over twenty-five years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and he has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He also received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling from the University of Southern California and he has worked with hundreds of families, couples and children over the years. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. He received his doctorate from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007 and he has trained over 25 doctoral students since that time. Advertising Inquiries: [e-mail] https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-cce.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, hidden gems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews.

Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. This interview between director Sky Borgman and Hidden True Crime was originally recorded on September 9th, 2022. Hours after recording, Colby Ryan's charges were dismissed. Hello, we are with the Sky Borgman today, director of numerous true crime documentaries, an incredibly talented artist,

and someone that's also been at our dinner table as well, and has interviewed and spent a long time with John. In fact, the relationship is so close. I have video of you, Sky, hitting John with newspaper as a fly flew around. Yep, I remember that. Sky, I don't know, man. You do a lot of documentaries about domestic violence. Seems like you're picking the edge there a little bit.

careful who I hit with the newspaper. Yeah. In fairness, I wasn't hurt. It was, it was, it was, it was done. There was this giant fly buzzing around when we were doing it. And he was landing on John and buzzing the microphone and we were trying to get rid of it. I don't think we ever got it. You know, I think I don't know if we ever did either.

I think it disappeared of its own record. Really. Yeah. Domestic violence and. murder. Come on. Yeah. Sky, you've interviewed John for hours, hours and hours, and we thought it would be an enjoyable thing as we all look forward to the upcoming documentary that you did those interviews for Sins of Our Mother to have John interview you as the director of this upcoming film and as the director of many other films. And so I'm going to let you two take it away. I'm here

to enjoy and observe and maybe jump in every so often. Awesome. Awesome. Cool. I'm excited. Let me just begin with an introduction that, you know, I met Sky. I was very fortunate to meet you, Sky, through the upcoming documentary you're doing on the DeBel case. I feel like you've kind of taken the true crime community by Storm this summer with your two documentaries, the one in July, the girl in the picture, and the one released in August. I just killed my dad. Both are amazing. I think in many ways that Sky is sort of redefining the genre of true crime because I think her documentaries tend to be very victim-centric,

and that's a little unusual in the world of true crime. And from someone who spends a lot of time with offenders, my job primarily is to make sure the community is safe and to make good decisions for the community. And so Sky really kind of gives voice to that need and gives voice to the victims, especially in the girl in the picture, who obviously didn't have a voice or an identity

until you came along. So thank you for doing those. You also, I should mention, you also did a documentary in 2017 abducted in plain sight, which is just a jaw-dropping. Look at a really fantastical case that also involves Mormonism.

like Daybell, and it is an award-winning, critically acclaimed documentary, like all of her documentaries. And I have to say, Scott, Lauren and I just watched it again a few months ago. And we had the, even though we knew the outcome, we had the same reaction. We just couldn't believe what was going on. I'm very grateful, personally, Sky, that you're involved in true crime and that you're fending your considerable resources and talents in this arena, because it's an arena, I think, that needs some humanization sometimes.

No, I appreciate it. I really do because it is very important to me to have that victim-centric sort of thrust behind all of the stories that I tell. And it's something that I look for in stories and try to sort of develop out a little bit more. You know, the crimes and the stories that are out there, there are many people sort of focusing on the victims a little bit more and the survivors a little bit more, but the market is saturated with stories about the perpetrators. And so if we can start to sort of tell, you know, the stories of the real people, the stories of the people that the stories

don't get told about a lot, you know, that's what I love to be able to do if I can. Yeah, well, you do it well, and I'm glad you're doing it. So, you know, I noticed on that issue, you know, a common theme in many of your documentaries is domestic violence. Is that something that you're seeking out? Is that something you have a passion for? You know, I think, I think my passion is, is to tell stories. I really like telling stories with women in them. And so many of those stories that have women in them have domestic violence attached to them, unfortunately. But I think that's a really, you know, stark truth. And it's something that I think is maybe we're getting better at understanding domestic violence,

but I don't actually think we are. I hope we are, but I don't actually think we are. So I think being able to tell these stories maybe can help educate or can help give people a greater understanding of how domestic violence happens, why we as women may or may not talk about it, the way that we're asked to talk about it, why we're blamed for staying with people. I mean, there's so many complicated things

that hopefully we can start to normalize the talking about it and by doing that, decreasing the numbers. Because the number of staggering, staggering. I know. It's something that Lauren and I are very, very invested in because of that. I've been in domestic violence, treatment, and education for over 20 years. And sadly, I haven't seen a whole lot change.

I know. I know. Yeah. And it's so, you know, we talked about the Gabby Petito situation. And I was talking about my belief that it was domestic violence before anybody else was. And it was staggering for me to see the public reaction that didn't believe that Brian Laundrie was. an abuser. And, you know, there were, in fact, when I talked about it publicly, I received a number of really derogatory responses saying, you know, that it had nothing to do with her, that he

was not violent, that, you know, in fact, his family put her up and he was a good, you know, all this, all this mythology. And I think a lot of the mythology is also that domestic violence means striking, hitting someone, and only that, you know, that there's, you know, some sort of physical violence that's present. And while that is absolutely true, that is, that is one element of domestic violence, there are so many others. There's, you know, financial threats. There's there's so much involved in domestic violence that isn't just sort of striking someone. Yeah, I agree. Like the research these days shows that coercive, what's called coercive control to be one of the, you know, the foundations.

And I think in your documentary, I just killed my dad, you show quite clearly that coercive control is in many ways the predominant theme that Bert is as controlling a human being as you could ever imagine. Yeah, and that's, it's really striking in that one, I think, because, you know, even law enforcement's ability to understand coercive control or the justice system's ability to understand coercive control is challenging because you're faced with something and these are evidentiary-based jobs, right?

I mean, this is how they sort of do their jobs. And they go, this is how we've been taught to do our jobs. This is how we've been taught to do our jobs. This is the evidence, the evidence points to this. What if that evidence isn't there? What if there is no hospital record? What if there is no police report? What if there's no bruise?

Then what becomes the evidence of how do we redefine our, way of thinking about evidentiary-based cases. And how do we do that? And I don't know the answer to that, but it needs to kind of happen. And I think there was some success in I just killed my dad. I think, you know, look, the people involved in these, they know what domestic abuse is. They've seen a lot of domestic abuse. But it's really redefining how we look at these cases and opening it up for a greater discussion. Yeah, no, that's, that's, that's, that's, Right, exactly. In fact, you kind of tease that out for the first few episodes about, okay, he looks like a murderer, but how are we going to show that he's not?

Right. And I agree. And the evidentiary issues are especially large in sexual abuse cases where it's essentially someone's word against someone else. Right. And, you know, in some ways, I feel like we've gone backwards in that arena too. But yeah, I agree. It's a really critical issue. And of course, the emotional and psychological abuse, you can't see necessarily. I think like the forensic psychologist you brought on was enormous benefit to that case because in some way she was able to bring out some of the things weren't seen. But it was so critical to an understanding of that case.

Yeah, I agree. and to really sort of have a professional, sort of talk to another professional and have this be a very legal sort of way of doing this, have this report sort of that she filled out. To really talk on those kind of terms with people. And it's, look, it is interesting to me because all of these psychologists, you know,

yourself included, like we have this way and you have this way of going in and writing these reports, but my big question is like, why isn't it changing? Like our understanding of abuse is getting better. I mean, even these words, coercive control, right? This is a new word that we're using or that is becoming more regular in how we speak about this. But only in the past couple of years. I mean, even for me, this is a new word that's come up and one that I'm quite familiar with,

but it has not been around very long. And I'm sure this has been an idea that's been around for decades. but to actually know what that means and to institute this change. I mean, how can that happen? Like from your perspective, I kind of think, look, I kind of think making documentaries and talking about it normalizing this and having it be something out there, I feel like it helps. I don't want to like, look, my goal absolutely is to change the world

in whatever way I can. It's a little bit crazy for me to think that I can do that. But I do think the stories of these people and them telling their stories helps others kind of say, I'm not alone, and maybe even recognize, okay, he doesn't hit me, but he does do all these other things to me. And that's coercive control and that's domestic violence. I agree. Thanks for saying that, by the way. I really appreciate that type of vision and the type of commitment to your work about wanting to change the world. I feel like a lot of artists won't say that because even though they may have that as an underlying goal,

they're maybe not as committed to that as you are. And so, in fact, on that note, I want to read, I'm going to read you a quote. There was a review of, I just killed my dad and The Guardian, August 9th, it's written by Lucy Mangan. I don't know if you've seen this, but this is a quote that Lucy has about your work. she says, she says, quote, the revelations in Borgman's films are enough to sweep away a substantial number of whatever struts you have underpinning your faith in humanity, unquote. It's kind of depressing, isn't it?

But I'd say no. I'd say it actually speaks to what you just said, right? That I think good and great art challenges our assumptions, and it should make us feel that way. good artists aren't doing this stuff so we walk away feeling comfortable and, you know, more secure in our worldview. And so I read that. I'm like, yeah, that's exactly, I'm going to have to, I read that I said, I'm going to have to read that to Sky. Yeah, that's great.

See what she says. Look, the other thing I really like is, is that at the end of any of my films, what I hope is that people leave and talk to somebody about whatever. They can hate it. I don't care if they hate it. But if those conversations can continue or if there's a dialogue or an argument that can continue, I really think that that's an important aspect, too, to kind of not tie everything up with a nice tidy bow because we all know that nothing really can get tied up, that things are complicated and they're

not easy to sort of bring to a full conclusion. So if people walk away or turn off the TV and turn to their partner, or their whoever and just say, what did you think about that? Well, I think he's guilty. I think he's innocent. Why? Or I don't think, I think she could have said something. I think, you know, she could warn something different, but what do you think that means?

I mean, that's something, you know, if that can incite some sort of conversation, I think, that's what's really important to me as well. I think you're definitely doing that. I mean, you're certainly doing that in our household. Yeah, and I want to thank you just for understanding that you, can attempt to make a difference through true crime too. Because of the surging popularity in true crime, I feel that people lose side of the fact that those conversations can start

and they're healthy and they're good, whereas a lot of people talk about it being exploitation now. And when you have true artists with good intentions behind the scenes like you and my husband, John, I think that it can change the world for the better, you know? So I just want to thank you for that. Oh, thanks. And, you know, the other thing I would point out about your documentary sky is there's, there's all kinds of reflective moments in your, like, for example, one of the most powerful moments to me in, I just killed my dad.

No, I'm sorry. Well, in that and the girl in the picture, the girl in the picture was when you were talking to Cliff. and right Cliff isn't a huge part of the documentary kind of comes in at the end but in Cliff by the way for those who haven't seen it I don't want to spoil this but Cliff is the father of the girl in the picture

and you know you bring in these little moments that are so profound because you know for example that to me that moment with Cliff is a moment that everything could have changed right Cliff at the age of 24 took in the girls, they would have a different future. We don't know what happened, or at least I'm not clear about what happened to the other two sisters or half-sisters, but man, you know, you don't have to say anything. You just, you see this man that is so detached and so unemotional. And, you know, there's a huge moral dilemma there, right, in terms of, is he

capable of even could he raise three daughters in a healthy way if he does he saves their lives but on the other hand you know he's a he's a combat veteran with trauma like is is he just going to make things work right it's and he doesn't know and and that's the thing he doesn't know that he would have saved their lives had he taken them you know because if he knew what he knows now when yeah when he was just back from the war right i would like to think he would have said yeah if If they're going to get murdered and all of these terrible thing happen, I will take these girls and I will save them. But at the time, you know, it's just he's dealing with a lot of PTSD. He's dealing with a lot of that feels like he's not going to be able to be a dad.

It's just such a complicated thing. And you can see how tormented he is in the interview. I mean, so much it comes across with his inability to really be open and to really be vulnerable. So it's, it was. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Right. And, you know, those types of moments, I think, are all over your work. And I think that's what makes it so powerful. You know, that was a moment I didn't expect to see. I thought you were going to start moving towards the Danuma, right, and wrap everything together. And here comes Cliff, right? And the parents, the biological parents and sort of their struggles with what to do with their kids. And, you know, I don't know. So I think you do a really great job of finding those moments. that really kind of make us, you're putting the mirror up to the audience and saying, you know, what are you like as a parent? You know, what responsibilities are you willing to bear as a parent?

You know, what risks are you going to take? What, you know, are you doing things for you or are you doing things for your kids? Right. What sacrifices are you going to make, you know? And I felt all of that, you know, with Cliff. And Cliff wasn't a big part of it. But, I mean, you know, Lauren and I talked a lot about that moment. So, and it's not, there's moments like that all over. There's moments like that with Teresa, who's, you know, Anthony's mom, right? And she fights for Anthony for a bit.

She succumbs to whatever the process requires, right? She gets beaten down. Yeah. That's really so much of it is like the system beats her down. Her financial situation beats her down. And the search dates were done, and she just feels completely incapacitated to keep searching. And that's a tragedy, too, just how beaten down she felt. You know, Patricia, her mother kind of tells us how and why that happens, you know,

that there's generations of abuse and there's generations of trauma. And like, you know, even if they have the resources to fight, you wonder if they have the emotional stamina to fight. Yeah, because it's, I mean, that's, that's the big one is that emotional stamina. And, and also just, you know, the simple fact that it's, it's easier not to fight than it is to fight. And you hear this across the board from everybody. You hear it about women who go to rape trials and how beaten down they are. And it's that emotional stamina where, like, that we really have to consider because when we've got to put it. put ourselves out there when these victims have to go out there and continue fighting for every woman out there. There's a huge amount of pressure there too that's put on them. Yeah. And some, look, I think some people have it in them to do that and others need to protect themselves by not fighting and there are other ways to do it and what does that fight mean?

And it's just, you know, if we could provide space and support and not continue blaming and make it an easier path forward for people and women especially, but men too, for victims to speak their truth and not be blamed for it. Look, it's a long road. It's a long road ahead of us, but that's the hope, I think. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from from accounting to inventory to sales. Odu is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way.

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Discover your true age today. Yeah, thank you. That's really well said. I think I would add to that that, you know, another element of your documentaries that stands out to me is that a lot of times you're kind of portraying very broken, damaged human beings. You know, the questions are, how can we help help them?

How can we help them heal? How do we help human beings like this, develop the stamina to get in the fight? I think it's strength in numbers. I really do. I mean, I think it's knowing that other people have fought. I think it's protecting some of the people who have fought and lost, helping them continue to have a voice. I just don't know exactly how to do that.

I mean, it's also fine and dandy, you know, to say, yeah, let's provide support for them, but how do we actually do it? Yeah. And I don't know, look, I don't know that films do it. I think talking about it does it. I think films are a form of talking about it. Right. But the blame that's thrust on them and that's incessant, you know, to educate

those that do it without knowing that they're doing it because I think that's the biggest problem is people have become so ingrained in sort of the way that they think that they just assume that it's the woman's fault or that she was asking for it or it's the victim's fault or that he was asking for it because he misbehaved or because she wore a short skirt or because she went out and got drunk or you know but where I just wish that I think if people can can do that sort of look into that mirror and go, oh, shit, I'm doing this without even really knowing that I'm doing this. And I'm going to stop doing that. And if we can, if we can start doing that at home, then maybe that sort of grows into, into the jobs that we do and into the changes

that we make. Yeah. Including Anthony's mother, including Anthony's mother who, you know, gave up because of the system. Well, she wouldn't have even had to deal with the system had she not been under coercive control and someone had kidnapped her son. Right. Right. Yeah. Well, and also, right. I mean, there were so many things.

She didn't get any real help from the judicial system or from law enforcement. In fact, law enforcement sort of fit. You know, they were on his side. Yeah. So in some ways. So, I mean, so, yeah, I know. Those are, they're really tough questions. I agree.

Important questions. Sins of Our Mother is going to be released next week, right? September 14th, Wednesday. Since we've talked about that case now for two years, we know a lot of the players, and everyone is really excited to see this documentary. It's one thing to know about the case. It's the other to see Skyborgman's perspective. Well, it's really interesting.

I actually have to throw a few sort of compliments back at you, John, because, and Lauren both. I mean, your podcast was, I mean, I listened to it over and over again. I actually made transcripts of it so I could go back and read things. But it was so helpful in, you know, understanding the psychology of Chad and Lori and kind of just really delving a little bit deeper and understanding the motivations behind them, as much as we can. I don't know if we're ever going to understand them completely, but it was super helpful in understanding that. So I do think, look, what I feel this series has that I haven't seen before

is the perspective from Colby and his perspective from from the only living child of Lori. Lori Valo Daybell, whatever we're calling her. And what it feels, because I do think these are the people that get lost in these crimes, right? I mean, I've followed a couple chat rooms and whatever, you know, for the past couple of years. And when the film was announced, there were so many comments that came back saying,

I didn't even know she had another child. And I thought that was really interesting because it's like, so we, We're looking at the two children who we know are deceased, and they have names out there, and we talk about Lori. And we oftentimes don't remember the family members that are left behind and what they're going through and the trauma that they have to endure. Yeah.

We see Lori Valla, we see Tiley, we see J.J. And I want to cherish Tiley and J.J. and honor them as best as we can in this film. But to also, and this gets complicated, right? To honor Colby's journey and to honor Colby's struggles in dealing with this and his hope to sort of define himself away from his mother. And how does he do that? And what are the pitfalls?

And then to even go so far as to go, You know, the trailer came out a couple weeks ago. And then last week, when we find out that Colby was arrested for domestic violence. And you just sort of go, I mean, it's the most, when I saw the news, there was so many emotions. I mean, I was sad and angry and confused and shocked. And then you start, I don't know, I'm really interested to hear what you have to say about this, John, because I just started pointing how did this happen? And then you kind of start putting these pieces together.

And clearly this young man has had a lot of abuse in his life. That may not necessarily be called abuse or coercive control. And then you look at where this leads to. And it's just another element of this story that goes beyond Chad and Lori. way beyond chatelori. Right, exactly. Yeah, I'm glad you talked about that. I know, you know, when I learned about it,

my first response was just sadness. I know. You know, I just, I like Colby. You know, Kobe, the first time I filmed with you guys, Colby was there for most of the day. And, you know, I had a chance to talk to him, obviously, on camera and off. and he's been through so much.

He's so young to go through all that, you know, and sort of like in the girl in the picture, you know, with Patricia and Teresa and like there's almost this fatalistic sense of intergenerational abuse and trauma. In fact, Patricia, I think at one point says she's telling the story of the generations of abuse and she says, I don't know how this is going to end. I don't know how I can end this.

You know, and when she, She said that, I actually thought a lot about the Daybell case and the repercussions. And this was before Colby's arrest. I thought, like, it reminded me of Greek tragedy, you know, in the sense that like Greek tragedy is all about fatalism. And, you know, there's sort of this, and I don't want to concede that we don't have choices. And because obviously we do. But I think a lot of our choices are, you know, determined by things we don't necessarily control, unconscious forces, for lack of a better term, right? And I think, I think whether we like it or not, like the Greek tragedy model still is

alive and well today. And I don't think people recognize that type of influence. And so there's something tragic about it in the sense that, you know, it's almost an unstoppable force or it feels that way. It definitely feels that way, I think, with how events have transpired. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's like it absolutely feels. feels like a Greek tragedy. So John and I did do a Patreon episode about our thoughts initially when the news came out. And John did bring up in his meeting with Colby religion and how he uses religion a lot to make himself comfortable with the tragedy that surrounds him.

This is from John to me on our Patreon episode. Is there a cycle that could be stopped? And what is it that Colby might need to do in order to get that? And I just want to maybe ask that and ask if that's what we have seen as far as Colby perhaps using religion as this defense mechanism similarly to how his family and the Cox family has always used religion. Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because in my first interview with Sky and Netflix, I sat down with Colby and I was asking him some really difficult questions. and I was kind of trying to probe, you know, move towards some difficult emotions and see if he could sort of process that. And, you know, I think it was an interesting process because Colby kept pushing me back.

You know, every time I got close to something that was a little painful, he would throw me out with religion and he would say, you know, God is good. And he would kind of, I don't know if you remember that sky, but it was really, it was really kind of diagnostic, I think, of what's going on now. the sense that to heal, I think you have to find a way to dig a little bit. And I'm not denigrating religion. If people, you know, religion can be extremely helpful to people. And it can be a valuable resource and it provides a real sense of comfort and meaning.

But on the other hand, you know, when you've gone through a lot of trauma and that's your only language. That's your only narrative. I think it can really prevent the ability to dig deeper and to really. process some really tough emotions. And I think we kind of saw that with Colby. I don't know if you remember that sky, but. I do.

And I feel that, look, I don't know, I personally don't know how you heal from the circumstances that Colby's under. The murder of his, the alleged murder.

It's murder. Come on. Of his entire family. I know. Of his entire family. of his entire family and the, you know, incarceration of his mother. I mean, so how do you deal with that? I mean, is it? And I think Colby really dealt with it through finding some faith in God, redefining his faith.

I think it's always been there. But it did, it certainly did at that point. I think when you met him and when we were all together and continued to grow. I think that that commitment to, latching on to something greater, something outside of him to this God was, became a little bit consuming and easier in a way to put that energy out instead of pulling that energy in and going, what does this mean to me? What does this mean to my family? And, and, and I think that

both can exist, you know, and when it gets too hard to look in, go ahead and look out, but then turn back into. And that's what I feel can be true healing. And if a spirituality is part of that, amazing, but I think so much of it has to be within as well, whether you feel God is inside you or not, but you do have to kind of look at yourself and look at those that are around you.

People probably don't know this about me as much as my work with offenders, but I've done a lot of work for most of my early, career, I was working mainly with victims of all kinds of abuse. I think it's just fundamental to be at some point to go through some grieving process and just to have the ability to say, this is so painful. And I'm going to deal with that pain, you know, however, you know, I'm going to deal with that pain in a healthy way. Yeah. Yeah. And I actually may think that this that Colby's arrest may lead him to that now.

This may be his rock bottom and where he really has to start and kind of go, okay, now I have to start thinking about myself because I don't know that he's necessarily been doing that. I don't know. Look, I don't know if that's true, but I think I do, I think when we first talked

and when you spoke with Colby and met him the first time, I think you did say that, that he hasn't really grieved. Yeah. It felt like he needed to. Yeah. And that was a big concern to me. And don't get me wrong. I mean, real grieving is difficult.

Yeah. In some ways, real grieving is a lifelong process. So when you open that gate, you know, you're in some ways, you're making a commitment to something that's going to be painful for the rest of your life. Yeah. And I don't know, you know, I don't think Colby was ready to go there at that time. And that would have been, I believe that was like November 2020, give or take.

And at that time, he just wasn't there yet. And I sort of knew, I sensed those limitations. And, you know, I knew enough to kind of back off and give him some space. And, I mean, I kept trying to kind of go back to it. But it was pretty clear that he wasn't ready to do that. But even so, like even those few hours I spent with them, you know, that was, it was painful for me. You know, it's always hard for me to look at, other people that struggle to grieve and, you know, the suffering they're experiencing because they

can't get there, you know, and so I have a lot of empathy for Colby, and, you know, I felt really badly, not only for everything he's gone through, but just for his struggles to sort of make sense of the trauma emotionally. Yeah, yeah. And it's, look, it's, it's complicated for me how to feel. And it's hard. I know. I think you just nailed why John's job is in essence hard. When people hear what he does, he works with victims of abuse

and then he assesses the perpetrator for risk, often learning that they've been a victim in their past. And then throwing in that he does group sessions with those who have committed crimes in order to help them. And then to hear you, Sky, say at the beginning of this interview, my goal is, you know, I want to focus on domestic violence and start this conversation and, you know, coercive control. And then the subject matter in your upcoming film has just been arrested for domestic violence.

Someone I'm sure you learned to care deeply for. This crime continues to reverberate throughout generation. and we're not continue. I also just want to say too, I know that one other thing John brought up and I'm curious, but you think Sky 2 is,

you know, the timing of it is, this is a film that I think would have really given Colby his moment or is going to. We've never heard from Colby. This is, I think, a moment where people will recognize

what he's been going through. I haven't seen the film. I'm just assuming, knowing how you followed. his journey. And so I also ask Dr. John, and I want to ask you, is there some self-sabotage involved in this? I mean, possibly, John could probably speak to it more than I could in any kind of, you know, real educated way. But I think, I know that attention and press has been a little overwhelming for Colby in dealing with, you know, people reaching out to him when

Lori Valo became a household name, right? And these headlines were blasted. And that was on a pretty big scale, you know, this whole Lori Valo-Dabelle case in the United States, maybe in North America. What we're talking about now is that it's global. What will happen when this series goes out is the entire world will know the name Lori Valo-Dabell. And that's not the case right now. It's known in the western part of the United States, I think, in a pretty big way, in the United States and possibly in Canada, in not quite as big. But this is going to be even bigger. And I think the realization of that is daunting, is very, very daunting.

daunting, whether or not it was self-sabotage. I don't know if I can speak to that. There may be elements of that, certainly, I could understand there being elements of that. John, do you think that, John? Yeah, I, you know, again, it is, I think it's fairly complicated, but I think the biggest, probably the biggest element was, I didn't know he was separated from Kelsey, right?

I think the separation was devastating to him. His wife was his world. He had no family, right? His family was annihilated. And so she meant everything to him. And I didn't know that that happened, but my guess is that was probably a really difficult moment and probably a bit of a slippery slope for Colby. So my guess is it starts there. Yeah.

It's so interesting because it's, you know, my perspective to having finished the, the three episodes of sins of our mother and then having the rest and going back and looking at these scenes and it's and you can you can see in colby's eyes with every single word that he says how his wife is his rock i mean she is she has gotten him through this and and so i think that there's a big and look this is not easy this This tears families apart, especially because, look, I mean, Kelsey and Colby got married before any of this happened. Right. Yeah.

So, I mean, I cannot imagine, like, I think about my husband, and I'm like, when I stay with him, if this happened? Like, would I, I mean, maybe I would, but I just don't even have any reference for what that, how that would be, how that would impact me. and how that would how that would devastate my family. It's such a big, big thing that she didn't sign up for, but then was sort of thrust into. Yeah. You know, sort of like in, I just killed my dad when Anthony, you know, when Bert starts going through these series of losses,

he loses his job, he's in debt, right? He starts, like, there's these triggers. Bert's the father. Yeah, Bert's the father of Anthony, who's, Anthony's the person. Go watch the documentary. Anthony is the one who killed his father, who was Bert. And I think you can see some similar triggers here. There's some stressors that his wife leaves him.

He's separated from her. And he knows this documentary, by the way, is coming up. I think he's being thrust into the limelight that he doesn't necessarily like. Or he's sort of ambivalent about it. You know, there's a part of Colby, I think, that likes the attention, but then there's another part of them more recently that's been trying to kind of step away from that. It has to be stressful to think that you're going to be thrust into this, you know, like you said, this global drama from being featured in a documentary.

And he doesn't have his wife with this, you know, by his side. There's probably some other stressors going on. I'm not sure about his employment situation. but my guess is there's some stressors there. I think it was probably very overwhelming. Yeah, I agree. I think it's incredibly, just the specter of it is incredibly overwhelming to him. Yeah, and let's be honest, there's a lot of public opinion out there that's not favorable to Colby. For whatever reasons, I think Colby is the brunt of a lot of people's projection.

directions. We could probably talk for another hour about what, you know, why that's the case. I think a lot of blame, too, before this, you know, I think a lot of people blamed him. Yes. Right. And so, you know, I know from talking to Colby that he was trying to, he tried to shrug that off, but it was difficult. You know, it's, it's hard to have thousands of people blaming you. and angry at you and sort of projecting, whatever it is they're projecting, that, you know,

they're projecting their anger or their lack of control over the outcome of the case or that, you know, whatever it is, their feelings of grief towards the kids. And doing it very publicly and very violently. I mean, that's, that's like this, what posting and social media

and all of this world has created is this distance so that there isn't, there's very little humanity a lot of times in these comments that are going out. They're very violent and they're very filled with blame and filled with hatred a lot of times where it wouldn't be that way if you were sort of human to human and could look at all these different complexities.

And so this messaging that was getting to Colby from a lot of people I think was very hurtful to him. And I think just that, the idea that that could continue Yuan, I think it was present in his life that he was really thinking about that. Thank you for bringing that up because that was actually going to be a question I asked you is, again, before his arrest, he was already, I think, yeah, there was a lot of blame on social media towards him and anger hurled at him. And I think sometimes people think that these victims are never aware of these conversations,

thousands of people that don't know him are having, you know, videos being. made. And so I wanted to ask you that, like, was this discussed between you two? I don't know what's going to be in the documentary, but was this something he talked about that was difficult. Yeah, I mean, it was very difficult to him. And I think, you know, he, he wanted, he wanted the opportunity to tell his story. And it's hard for him. It's really hard for him to tell his story. But I think that that was a big part of it, that he felt like nothing was in his control. Like there were all these voices out there. And almost with everything that he did that he thought was a good thing, came back and he got sort of slapped down for it.

And so I think that doing the series was very much about him sort of taking control of his life back a little bit and having the ability to kind of tell his side of the story. But it's, I mean, he was, it was, it was pretty, it was pretty hard for him to deal with a lot of it. And so it's, it's not hard to imagine that when his wife leaves him, he's, he's lost a lot of control again. And certainly has no control over how, how a global audience will react to a documentary about him, or at least about his family. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think those are some pretty enormous stressors. And again, yeah, I'm not justifying what he did or excusing it.

What he did was horrible. And I think this kind of takes me back to talking about, you know, Sky's documentaries, that there's one thing I appreciate, Sky, is that, you know, there's always, and it's something I struggle with in my work, which is sort of giving the offender or a murderer or sex offender a voice versus giving the victim a voice, right? there's kind of this balancing act between finding the right, you know, the right way to be fair to the offender and still acknowledge the importance of what the victim has suffered. Yeah, it's really, it's really complicated, I think, because there's, there's, it's necessary

to understand, I think, especially for you to understand the, the mind and the workings of a perpetrator and how, how it gets to this point because you have to understand it in order to be able to sort of talk to somebody or steer something or understand the world in a greater capacity. And you have to understand how a victim goes. And so this, but you can't, look, you can't always say, well, you got to forgive him because he had all this abuse in his past. Yeah, you can't do that. You can't do that.

But again, that takes us back to, I just killed my dad. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Right. Like, complicated because I do think that, that Anthony's lifetime of imprisonment and this separation from anybody really outside of his family and this coercive control that Bert, his father absolutely put onto him, ended up with him shooting his father. and his eventual death. Yeah.

Should he be convicted of murder? The ultimate question you pose. The question. Yeah. And you said at the beginning of this interview, if your documentaries can spark a conversation, whatever that conversation is, then you are grateful for that,

which is what this has been so far. And so thank you for having a difficult conversation with us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You know, one interesting element of working with offenders that I found to be true, whether it was sex offenders or murderers, is that many of them wanted to be forgiven. Many of them wanted their victims to forgive them.

They wanted to hear that. In fact, to some degree, they needed that to feel like they could heal. And so, you know, one of the, and so that's what makes murder, I think, so difficult, is when you murder someone, you're never going to get forgiveness from your victim because there is no victim to forgive you. So you have to find another way to do it, right? You have to find another way to find that peace within yourself that's not coming from that victim. And I think that makes things really complicated in a way. And I'm talking about probably the healthier offenders.

The healthier murderers? Yeah. The healthier murderers that get the importance of forgiveness or sometimes. type of redemption or some way to find peace that's always eluded them for most of their lives. I mean, you hear about that too. I would imagine a lot with victims' families, and there need a lot of times to forgive the perpetrator so that they can move on. I mean, to carry that hatred around and that, you know, that must be incredibly challenging to do. But it's also really interesting because this idea of forgiveness is a very personal one as well. And I think it has to be

a personal decision because like do, does any individual need to forgive in order to feel better? Or does it make them feel better to not forgive and continue on? And I think it's a very personal choice. I agree. Yeah, it's right. It's a very individualized choice. And it probably depends on the person's ability to grieve and their mental health and a lot of different factors. But I agree. I think in some cases it's healthier if they hang on to some sort of anger. Maybe. Yeah, I think so too.

Because in some ways, that keeps them from falling off the edge. You know, if depression or suicide are lurking on the edge of the other side of the cliff, then I'd rather see them be angry, you know. I know that Colby has attempted to forgive his mother publicly, but do you think Colby needs Lori to almost say, I'm sorry because we hear in the trailer and these jailhouse calls the opposite, that she's still excusing her behavior. Do you think one part of Colby's healing is a deep need for his mother to say, I'm sorry to him? probably or or to take some ownership of what happened. I think it may not even be forgiveness,

but to take to not deny it completely and to take some ownership. To acknowledge it. That's what I thought of when John was talking about. Forgiveness and apologies needed is how does that affect him too, that she might not be taking any ownership for completely, for murdering his entire family. Yeah. Yeah, when I talked to Colby, it seemed like he felt like he was going to get some closure,

or at least a little bit of closure, if his mother could at least tell the truth. Yeah, and look, that's also another, it's also something else that's coming up in the future, right? I mean, we're in September right now. The trial is supposed to happen in January. I kind of don't think it will. I think it's going to continue to get pushed. But also, I mean, this trial has been pushed many, many times. And so it's like this moving target.

You think that something's going to happen and you might be able to get some closure. Yeah. It gets pushed and then pushed again. And then all of this stuff happens and all of this legal schmigley, you know, all of this stuff. And it's got to be incredibly difficult to deal with that when you think you're going to get something. And it just keeps getting further and further away. Yeah, and I'm sure that's a part of, that's contributing to his stress. Yeah.

You know, that there's no resolution. And like you said, every time there appears to be a glimmer of hope, it keeps getting pushed back into the future. Yeah. Sky, we've taken an hour of your time, generous time. Thank you. Is there anything you want to talk about before we conclude? I mean, I don't think so. I really, I mean, I really appreciate you having this difficult conversation.

with me because I think the more the more we can do things like this in a in a public way and and talk about these hard things I think it's I think these conversations are important to have and so I appreciate I appreciate you having it with me I really do thank you yeah we appreciate you taking the time on such short notice to be with us so thank you very much I do want to ask you know that it seems like when people ask me about the work I do the most common question I get all the time is how can you stomach being in front of these murderers or sex offenders or pedophiles or how can you how can you deal with that how do you know how do you have a normal life when you you know when you're spending day in and day out with some of the

most heinous people on the planet and and i and i want to translate that question a little bit for you guys since you've been, you know, involved in true crime now for a while. Does it have an impact on you personally? Does it has, has working in this, you know, this area sort of influenced how you see the world? Definitely. I mean, I don't know how it cannot have on how I see the world. But I don't, I don't think it's necessarily a negative impact. I, with every one of these projects, I go through different emotional stages, right?

I mean, when I'm with people, when I'm sitting down to interview people, I'm very much present with them, I'm listening to them, and I'm incredibly emotionally attached to what's going on. And then we get into the post process of it, and I'm able to sort of distance myself a little bit more and think about the practicalities of,

how do I put the story together and what are the issues? But I think what with everything, you know, I walk away with something going, oh, this is an issue that I need to be thinking more about. And this is something, you know, that I need to dive a little deeper into and really figure out what it is that I want to be saying and the message that I want to be putting out there. And with everything, I'm always learning. I don't know enough about something. So I need to I need to learn more about it. I need to talk more about it. I need to revisit what this means on.

You know, the films I do, a lot of people watch them. And there's a lot of responsibility there to be putting messages out there that are well-informed. And so with all of them, I'm always learning how I can be more well-informed. And so I really appreciate the opportunity to better myself, too, with the films that I do. Awesome. Thank you. I like to ask this question to everyone I talk to. Maybe this isn't the best question to ask in the current environment, but what is it that keeps you up at night?

My dog keeps me up at night because he barks at coyotes all night long. That's a good answer. That's a serious question. I came back with that. Yeah, that's good. I'm glad you're feeling safe, though. I am feeling very safe, yeah. But I think what keeps me up at night is just is being responsible, you know,

and how can I be as responsible as I can with these stories I tell? That's awesome. That's how I feel about my job, by the way. Like I, you know, Lauren would tell you, I think that one of the things that keeps me up at night is making life and death decisions about people that most people don't like, you know, but being fair to them and, you know, asking the question, should these people, ever be in the community again. And so I think I totally relate to that,

that, you know, I see my job as being as responsible as I can be as an empathic human being and someone who's trying to protect the community too. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you. We, we, I appreciate your work and your films. And I was very honored and humbled to be a part of your documentary, even though I

know it's changed a lot. We hear he was cut a lot. You're still a big part of it. Okay. Don't worry. I forgive you. Thank you. Just making it into a Skyborgman documentary for a few minutes is a great honor.

You're a big part of it and a big part of understanding the psychology behind this. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Well, thanks for joining us. We really appreciate it. And yeah, hopefully we can get other people to watch this and to participate in this dialogue,

and we can, you know, pay it forward a little bit. So thank you. Thank you. It was such a great pleasure to sit here and talk for things. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. O-DU is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on features you need. Check out O-D-O-O-O-O-O-D-O-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com.