Hidden True Crime - Beyond the Veil: Midnight Musings on Chad Daybell’s Preliminary Hearing

Episode Date: August 20, 2020

In a late-night dinner, we explore some of the implications and repercussions from Chad Daybell’s preliminary hearing. We also discuss serial killer signatures and typologies as they relate to this case. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I'm Dr. John Matthias. We're having dinner late tonight. It's around midnight, Pacific Coast time, which seems like an appropriate time to discuss a horror story of this magnitude. Thanks for joining us again. It's been a couple weeks. We've been moving into our new home. We talked to you a couple weeks ago when we were sitting on Home Depot boxes.

We're now sitting on a couch. Luckily, still a lot of boxes. That we can't identify. We still haven't found our utensils. And we still don't have a washer and dryer, but that's coming Friday. Living in our house at the moment may not be a crime, but it's definitely a mystery. And speaking of crime, let's talk preliminary hearing. I know a lot of people are ready to talk about Lori Valo Debel.

We are too, but we had a major preliminary hearing that we first need to discuss, and it's actually been requested by numerous people to please talk about bits of the preliminary hearing, including some recorded phone calls. And we want to dedicate this episode to a self-identified superfan, Felicia Jones. Thank you, Felicia, for being so supportive of our podcast. I think when we started this last month, I never envisioned the possibility of a super fan, for lack of a better term. but I've really appreciated your comments and your support and your feedback and thank you. And so we would like to do a shout out to you for being so supportive and encouraging us to continue in spite of the fact that we've both been really busy and moving.

And exhausted right now. Thanks for pushing us. Here it is. We'll do our best. We certainly have some things to talk about. And for those waiting for Lori Valladabelle, we will get there. But we did need to cover this preliminary hearing first. But because we're talking about it, I do want to throw out a little bit of a teaser on Lori,

and that pertains to Lori's father, Barry. My take on Lori, and we'll get into this in much more depth over the next several weeks, but my take on Lori is that if we want to understand Lori, we need to start with her father, Barry. And one of the little tidbits you need to know about Barry is that several years ago in 2018, he was distributing flyers for his law practice, but the problem was he wasn't a lawyer. The Arizona State Bar intervened, and they shut him down. They issued a cease and desist order,

and they told him to stop distributing flyers and to stop practicing law if that's what he's doing because he wasn't a lawyer. His response to them was that the Arizona State Bar was incompetent and barely qualified to practice law. If you step back and think about that for a moment, I think you can learn a lot about Barry Cox. Think about the irony of someone practicing law whose job is to, at the very least,

to interpret law, in many cases to uphold law, who's essentially saying he's above the law. Does that mean that he has some antisocial traits? Perhaps we'll discuss that later. Does that mean that he might be somewhat narcissistic? Perhaps we'll discuss that later. The question for me that I want to look at closely is how does Barry Cox influence the family system, the family dynamic that Lori grows up in. And I think the answer to that is profoundly. If you want to understand Lori, I think you need to begin with her father and just another little tidbit. I'll throw out a connection that we'll be making down the road and some of the podcasts on Lori would be to think about Chad for a moment. I've talked a lot about Chad occupying

the role of a deity and thinking he's a deity. When you think about a deity, typically you think about someone who sets the laws, someone who is also above the law. So now I've thrown out a couple of ideas. One, Barry Cox above the law, a lawyer practicing law without a license. And two, Chad Daybaud, a deity also above the law. We'll get into this in much more depth, I promise. I know I'm making a very weak connection now because I'm not tying those pieces together, but we will tie them together down the road. I want you guys just to maybe chew on that connection for a little bit until we return to it in a future podcast. Now back to what happened last week, Chad Daybell's preliminary hearing. It was a two-day hearing and Chad's case will now advance to district court. The judge determined that Daebel likely committed two felony counts of conspiracy to commit destruction or concealment of evidence, meaning the bodies of J.J. and Tiley. Let's focus on a few elements of the preliminary herming that were of interest to us. Number one, the overall level of dishonesty. It just,

amazes me to people who consider themselves to be translated beings, whatever that means. And religious. And religious and sanctimonious and moral. Just lie indiscriminately to everyone. To police. They talked about how they lied to police. And maybe they're thinking that the means justify the end. But these are people that have absolutely no problems lying.

We knew from the probable cause that both Lori and Chad had lied to police when a well- The initial welfare check was being done for JJ, and they lied to police about JJ's whereabouts. But to hear it in the body camp footage during the hearing was mind-blowing, just the depth of their lies. Who's he with in Arizona? He's with one of my friends in Arizona. Oh, you might if he comes in. No, come on. So who's the friend he's with?

My friend Melanie. Her son has autism. Her name is Melanie. I gave him all the information on the phone. we're a little concerned because well the officers we were here earlier yeah we're checking and they got a bad vibe like something was going on here because a lot of stuff that was gone on if you're on no it's a lot of stuff so well that's why we're concerned because it just was kind of weird it is very weird I've had to move around a lot

when my brothers is trained to kill me not the brother that's here obviously he's kind of my protector. My other brothers was in with my husband who was trying to kill me for my two one and a dollar life at Sharon's so a lot of stuff is going on in this last year it's been a horrible year for us. I've had to move around and so I was going to move back to Arizona, put my son back into school there because I tried to put him in school here at public school at Kennedy. He went for two months. We tried it, but he had such hard time. So I don't tell people the truth about where we are and what we're doing because of those reasons. So I look like a suspect, but I am a good person. Raised all of my kids. I've done everything that I'm supposed to do in life,

but everyone is causing me trouble right now. So we don't want to cause a lot of trouble. Does Lori even have a conscience? Like she's so, she's lying so freely. So indiscriminately. It just flows from her mouth like butter. I think it's a great question. I think it's a question we're going to or down the road. I think the shorter answer is that Lori probably lacks more conscience than Chad does. Dun dun dun for next time. That's a good teaser too. And they also were dishonest about knowing each other. In the preliminary hearing, there's a body cam moment when Lori, she pretends not to know Chad when, in fact, they're married. Well, we had two detectives over here trying to... Looking for you a little while ago. Oh, because I was up the store. And they ran into

Well, probably one of your brothers in the back here. My brother and his friend, probably. Who's that? Chad. Chad from around me? Mm-hmm. What's his last team? Chad to B-A-Y-B-E-L-M-hmm.

He's an author. Doesn't he live like out in the... Isn't that Chattie Bell that... He hasn't passed away recently? Presumably, if you're married to someone... You usually know them pretty well. Especially if you're going to ride on a chariot to the end of the world with them, right? You presume they know them.

What was interesting to me about this fact was the lack of planning, the arrogance of these people. You would think that when the police showed up, they'd have some reasonably consistent story about what happened, and they don't. There's no planning at all. There's no strategy here. If Lauren and I were to commit some horrendous crime. If you and I planned a murder. Right. If we planned a murder.

We would have a decent plan, I think. We would probably be on the same page. I think so. About what happened, or at least we'd have some discussion. when you go to the I don't know that person and have their number and you're married, probably isn't going to look good. It would imply that they really thought they were just going to get away with this. Well, not only get away with it, I think it also shows to some large extent that they did believe that the world was coming to an end.

That if the world's coming to an end, why bother with getting your story straight? Or that the Lord would protect them. I think that's part of their big theory, too, is that the Lord would protect them. Right, just like he was going to protect Chad when the bodies were. being discovered on his property. For him to lie to police, just the irony there, he'll lie straight to a police officer's face despite believing in this rigid black and white religious view of the world. But like Chad always does, he has an excuse, which I'm sure was, well, sometimes you have

to lie for the Lord's sake. Right, he's going to testify. Starts everything with, I testify. I just want to testify. Right, he's going to testify that it was what he had to do for the law. the Lord. Another interesting element of the preliminary hearing to me, and it's something a lot of you have asked questions about, is the Melanie Gibb call when she called Chad and Lori and challenged them on the whereabouts of JJ. For people to understand this call, again, the children at this time

were still missing. Their bodies had not been found. Lori and Chad left the day after the welfare check. They went to Hawaii and did not tell anyone where they were going. They were married. The children were missing and Melanie Gibb had been requested by Lori to lie to police and tell police that JJ was with her, which she did lie at first. And then she decided to record this phone call. I'm pretty sure to save face. One of the interesting things about this call to me is it shows without question that Chad and Lori are both involved together. Very involved together. They're both in on this plan. And so it would be interesting to see if at some point one or the other of their defense strategies becomes to deny that they were in on it,

or maybe to scapegoat Alex Cox. Chad's denial of knowing Lori early on actually may be a bit of a precursor to that. At the end of the preliminary hearing, his lawyer was starting to hint at the fact that Alex Cox and Lori had a, quote, special, unquote, relationship. It implies that Chad's defense attorney may at some point start moving in the direction of separating Chad from Lori and Alex. try to pin the entire murderous scheme on them. Alex and Lori, brother and sister. Here's some of that call now. This is a recording on December 8th at 3.43 p.m.

And I am calling Chad Day Bell's phone number, and hopefully I will be talking to both of them, Chad and Lloyd. So here goes the phone call. Hi, Chad. Hey, Lori. How are you? Oh, okay. How are you guys?

Pretty good, thanks. I was wondering, where are you guys? Are you in Idaho? I just wanted to ask you a question if you don't mind, Lori. Yeah, I want to know, you remember we talked about JJ going to Kay's house and you told me they went there and now he's not there? I was wondering what happened. Well, she was she doing something? Like was she trying to come get him or something or like trying to come get him or something or like trying to kidnap him?

Well, yeah, she said that often times before, but. Okay. Well, you know when I asked Chad the other day, I was like, hey, you know, where is JJ? And he said for my security, he didn't want me to know. So is there a reason I should be endangered? to know where he is? No, it's nobody, it's his danger. It's the danger that there's people after me. Okay. So.

If you knew, that puts you in it. Just in a bad position. Yeah, bad position. Everybody, if they don't know anything, then they don't have to say they know. Right. So you're just worried. Okay. I'm just to keep him protected and.

And keep you protected. And keep everybody else. I appreciate that. Well, I was wondering why you told the police why he was with me. This entire call is 20 minutes long, and we'll have the full call on our Facebook page, hidden a true crime podcast or at hidden true crime. But one thing that happened a lot during this conversation was argument over scripture. Take a listen.

He had to hide. We had to hide because they were so. They were so, everybody was killing everybody in the society. Everybody was dying. They were killing all the natives. Felt in the scriptures had to hide in the cavity of a rock by day. The prophets did. They did.

Yet you should have been faithful, and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary. He would have been with you in every trouble. So when we work with the Lord and our obedient, he has, he's going to protect us from adversarial darts and all kinds of negativity. But when we open the door to Satan, he comes in and then he attacks. And then he takes away to make it look like somebody else took it away.

But that's not how God works. He doesn't work in darkness. I agree with you 100%. And that's what the Lord is doing for me. Exactly what he's doing for me. I don't know. It just seems weird. We have not open to dark or darkness now.

Darkness is knocking on the door all the time because that's the way dark works. A lot of this call is sitting in Sunday school, sitting in church, and listening to people debate the truthfulness of various scriptures. I remember when I was in Sunday school and I was 10 years old that some of my peers would have these types of debates. How old were you again? 10-ish? Exactly. 10. It was a little bit like listening to children to me, very juvenile in a lot of but I guess that's this entire case. That goes back to some of the observations we've made about how literal the conversations are between them

and how literal they interpret the world. We talked about this to a large degree in our third episode about Chad Daybell's close-mindedness, and I think that theme gets repeated over and over. We see it in this call. We see references to the end of the world. We see talk about what scripture's right and whether Maroni did so-and-so,

and whether... My favorite part was when Melanie uses the scripture against Lori about Corahor and Corahor is the Antichrist in the Book of Mormon and Lori gets so offended and she says, are you kidding me right now? You're calling me Corahor? Here's that part.

Carnal natural desires. That's what influenced him and he was very... He's not real... Funnel natural desires? Well, honey, you've got a lot of natural desires. We don't know that. But you think it's...

me, Coral. I think both of you have had similarities. It's in the scriptures. It's in the scriptures. And the scriptures are very powerful. Yes, they are. I live by the scriptures, as you know. I know, but we can rest the scriptures for our own vain glory. Do I rested the scriptures?

We can. We can do that. And I feel that you have to see our belief systems. Do I rest the scriptures? Is that what you're accusing me of? At this point, I feel that you have. That's one of my favorite parts is they're like 12 years old and calling each other names and getting offended. When remember, there are two missing children, but not only missing, at this point, they have been murdered and buried in Chad's backyard while they're arguing over scripture meaning. Right, and there's a lot of gaslighting going on in this conversation.

Lori constantly challenges Melanie, Melanie's perceptions, and constantly tells her that she's turning on her. Here's one example of gaslighting when Melanie brings up a concern and Lori's responses, you know me, Mel, you know me. So I can tell that you're just out of serial, Mel. I love you. I'm sorry that you feel this way. Because I actually do care, I'm sharing what I feel.

It doesn't feel right. I don't have peace about it. I never have felt 100% peace about it. I always felt like a little weird in my story. stomach about all these things. You know me, Mel. You know things that have fear. Have fear of the celestial world.

I don't have fear. You obviously do. No, I have a peace of conscience and I can see clearly. So in a lot of ways, I know I refer to conversations I remember having as a 10-year-old, but I also think it's as if these three had just watched a Marvel movie like Iron Man, and now they think it's the truth. and they're debating the reality of the suit, and they're debating the mechanics of the suit,

and they're debating whether Tony Stark can transform the world, and they're debating fiction, essentially. They're creating this fiction, and then they're living it, and then they're debating it. They don't know better to step outside of this framework and to evaluate it from a rational perspective. What would be a rational way to look at that? To have some element of self-reflection,

to have some element of saying, hey, what if there's other perspectives here? What if the world isn't going to come to an end? What if Corahora is a metaphor? That would never cross their minds. Exactly my point. And that's why they're in that predicament. Another interesting tidbit in that call was Melanie referencing Chad's opening dark portals.

You would have been supported if you had not opened dark portals and dark junk. You would have been safe. I know we keep talking about the portals. But when Melanie said that, it actually led me to believe. that Melanie was all in on this scheme, that Melanie was all in in this cult, because the way she mentioned the portal, it sounded as if she believed it. You would have been supported if you had not opened dark portals. When she did her interview with Nate Eden, she stepped back from that a bit and thought

that the portals were strange. But in that call, in December, she's talking as if the portals are real. There's some element of involvement here with Melanie that's not being acknowledged. I think that Melanie's knowledge, perhaps, and her understanding. involvement in Chad's cult is probably more than we're aware of. I think she's minimized a lot of this and I think she probably knows a great deal more than she's letting on and that slip, that acknowledgement about opening dark portals suggests that she believes it and that she only challenged that, refuted that when it became apparent the portal was absurd. Which only became

a parent after two children were murdered. John knows I have my issues with Melanie Gibb. I am very, very grateful that Melanie Gibb has come forward. I am very grateful that she recorded that call. And I'm grateful that she finally told the truth to police. But some people are calling her a hero because of her testimony during the preliminary hearing. And really, she could have done a lot more early on. What does it take for her to finally realize that children's lives are in danger? She knows what happens to zombies.

She's believing this stuff. She's clearly very religious, as you just point out. She's scripture bashing with them rather than talking about two missing children. She seems to care more about what's right and wrong than two children's lives. And she did lie to police initially about JJ's whereabouts. Right, which challenges her credibility about everything. Also, she's completely unemotional. We're talking about murdered kids.

And we're talking about, at least in December, we're talking about a child that's missing and she's unemotional about it. And she believed the kids were dead. In her interview with Nate Eaton, before the children's bodies were found, she said, I believe they're on the other side. They're dead. They've been murdered. So in other words, she is clearly thinking that something happened to these children at this point.

And she seems more concerned about getting the scripture right than where JJ is. There's almost something disassociative about her response here, that she's more concerned about the intellectual meaning and interpretation of scriptures rather than the potential death of a child. For clarification, Tiley is not mentioned in this December phone call because Melanie was only asked to lie to police about JJ. The welfare check initially was just about JJ, sadly, because Tiley had been missing a lot longer. So Tiley wasn't even brought up in this phone call, which is another concern to me because of J.J. is missing and she's concerned about JJ's welfare and she hasn't seen Tiley in months and she had visited them and Tiley wasn't there. I also wish that she had asked about Tiley and thought to ask about Tiley in this conversation. She had heard Lori called Tiley a zombie. Why is she expressing no concern for Tiley during this phone call? Is it because she only lied to police about J.J? So she's concerned more about her welfare than Tiley's? Or does she know something about Tiley that she's not letting on or doesn't want to get involved with? That upsets me too that she doesn't bring up Tiley. Right.

And she's unemotional about it. Her concern for the welfare of the children is secondary to her concern for whether she's gotten scripture correct. The other element of the preliminary hearing that was very tragic and difficult to listen to, but important to discuss, nevertheless, was the state of the children's bodies. Yes. So trigger warning for anyone that doesn't want to hear how the children. bodies were found and in what condition they were found? The difficulty, I think, for us, for this one, was the way these human remains were found. So it was kind of this, for lack of a better term, it was kind of a mass of dismembered human remains, burnt, partially burnt.

And so we did the best we could. It was kind of hard to recognize, like, what are we looking at here, initially? you know, what is this? We know there's tissue here, there's organic matter here, and we just couldn't recognize what we were dealing with. But layer by layer, we ended up just excavating all around this mass of human remains, and we ended up excavating all the way around it. And at the very bottom of this mass,

we find, you know, this melted, green, bucket and then to the bottom the side of that green bucket we eventually find a skull and then to the side of that skull we find a mandible with some teeth that those are the significant things that you could finally see and recognize out of this mass profilers often talk about serial killers signatures In this case, I think it's fair to call Chad and Lori serial killers because we're talking about multiple murders here. So I think that's an apt description. When profilers look at a crime scene, sometimes called a crime scene analysis or psychological profiling, they look at three things. They look at the MO or the modus operandi of the murder.

They look at what's called the signature of the murder. And they look at victim characteristics. The MO is basically what led to the death of the victim. In other words, what was the method of killing? And was that sufficient to kill the person? The signature is what goes above and beyond the MO. In other words, the signature would be something that's unique to a particular crime scene or a particular murder

that exceeds what's necessary to kill someone. If you were to strangle someone, there's a point at which that person might die. and that would be the MO, strangulation. However, if you continue to strangle that person and then you broke their neck and maybe you... Stab them. Stab them or anything above and beyond

what was necessary to kill that person would then become a signature. And that's important because criminal profilers look at signatures in an attempt to discover who the killer might be. They look at patterns and killings, and those are called signatures. In the case of Chad Daybell and Lori,

the bodies and the way the bodies were found provides a lot of interesting information. This show is supported by Odu. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up, and it gets complicated and confusing. Odu solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odu is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on features you need. Check out Odu at O-D-O-O-O-O- dot com.

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the bodies are treated and they're making assumptions about what would be necessary to do that to someone. What is the psychological element that would allow or need? What is the psychological need that would allow someone to kill at that level? This is also sometimes called overkill. That's where the term overkill comes from. A signature is going beyond the means that might be necessary to kill someone. A classic example of a signature might be you could stab someone. one time to kill them, but in murders involving passion, for example, you'll find that people get stabbed 100 times. That's overkill. Which shows rage. It shows rage. It shows rage. It shows impulsivity. It shows the inability to curtail behavior at a certain point. In these particular cases, if you look

at three of the bodies, if you look at Tammy's body, if you look at Tiley's body, and you look at JJ's body, you see an interesting pattern, for me at least, which is that Tammy in some ways. Tammy is Chad's first wife that was killed two weeks before he married Lori. Who supposedly died of natural causes, although Chad when talking to Melanie, Chad mentions that his children were present. Right. Here's how Chad explained she died in that recorded phone call with Melanie Gibb. Although originally he said it was in her sleep, his story is changing. I just want to testify.

I don't know who she is. I'm sorry, you said your sister and all? I don't even know her. I know that she's coming up with the same. Just after. His story changed in terms of how Tammy died. But what's interesting to me is the fact that if we assume this is a murder, it appears that Chad killed her to avoid detection,

probably through some type of poisoning or some type of chemical that he injected, although we don't know the other. autopsy report. But my point is that her body wasn't disfigured, that he did this in a way to avoid as much pain as possible for Tammy. There was, for lack of a better term, some concern about her well-being and the amount of pain that she might suffer. And if you look at the other two bodies, especially Tiley, which was horrendous, Tiley's body was decapitated. Dismembered. Her pelvis was separated from her body. Her spine was severed. Spine was severed. Her jaw

was separate from her head. She was burned. It's a horrible situation. And even if she was already dead at that point, it's still a horrendous signature. It's a signature that shows rage and dominance and vengeance. And it's in many

ways the complete opposite of Tammy. And yet, probably the same person. And let me say this. We don't know at this point who killed Tyler. It could have been Alex Cox, who's now deceased. or it could have been Chad, but we do know that Alex and Chad were together on Chad's property, burying Tiley, and that Chad sent a text to Tammy afterwards saying that he'd been out all day, burying a big raccoon that he shot.

So we know that Chad was there doing what he did to the body, whether she was dead or alive. He did this. So if Chad wasn't disfiguring the body himself, he was involved with it, he knew what was going on. There was some speculation that he considered Alex. Cox to be a soldier. In that case, Alex was simply carrying out his orders. So Chad would have had a direct say on how these bodies were treated. I guess you might be able to argue that they dismembered the body maybe in an attempt to dispose of it or to incinerate it at some level. But I don't think that's the case. As I talked about in episode four, I believe that Tyley challenged Chad. I believe that when Tyler found out that she was labeled a zombie and she saw the writing on the all, she started to question Chad's belief system. I think she started to push back against the deity. And that put Lori in a real dilemma in terms of, does she choose her child or does she choose Chad? Chad probably escalated his vindictiveness towards Tiley at that point. And no doubt, that's one of

the reasons Tiley received one of the highest dark ratings possible because he was trying to alienate her from Lori, I'm sure. So it's no surprise, although tragic as it is, it's no surprised to me to see that her body was completely disfigured. It's consistent with my interpretation of the evidence that Tiley probably challenged Chad to some degree. And that's a big no-no when you're a deity who's going to lead people into the new Jerusalem. JJ's body is a bit of an enigma. If we're trying to figure out a signature here, it's definitely more towards the violent side that the body was wrapped in plastic. The head had a garbage bag around it. A tremendous amount of duct tape apparently was wrapped around the head and in his mouth. And when I first heard during the preliminary hearing the way

JJ's body was found, my first thought was that perhaps he had been buried alive. I hope that's not true. I hope that's not true. But the way the body was found and the garbage bags, it's peculiar. He was wearing the same pajamas that he was last seen in as well as socks. He could have been poisoned. He could have been strangled. It's hard to know. I don't think it was a kind death. I don't think it was a kind death. I guess as kind as any death can be, I feel like this was a death that involved a certain amount of violence and aggression. While the body wasn't dismembered like Tiley, where there's clear signs of rage, the body was not pristine either. The bags around his head indicate potentially some struggle. They were trying to silence him.

The duct tape in his mouth might indicate that he was screaming, that he was pushing back, that they tried to silence him. Those two bodies show to some degree that this. This apparently docile, kind, humble prophet that Chad Dable is supposed to be is filled with anger and rage and vengefulness and that he'll stop at nothing to have his mission fulfilled. These two bodies show that his signature is actually one of aggression. And it's also interesting to note that his signature changes. When it's someone that he feels close to, someone that he was married to for many years, he was more respectful. You might say that he did that because he wanted to avoid detection, but I don't think that's true. I think that part of his rage or part of his signature here is related to the fact that what he would consider blood versus non-blood required different responses.

Although it is suspected that Tammy was possibly going to be shot. We don't know if that was Alex Cox with a gun. If in fact that was the case, it did appear that someone tried to shoot. Tammy. A few weeks, or was it a few days or a week before she was actually killed? That's true. Then the poisoning would be a stopgap measure. That would be consistent with his other signature of a violent murder. So don't be fooled by this supposedly calm, docile demeanor of Chad Daybell. Underneath that facade is definitely lurking a violent, murderous person. And the final piece I want to talk about from the preliminary hearing that really stood out to me did occur in the

Melanie Gibb call. And that was Lori's statement that basically Melanie just needed to hang in there because the world was coming to an end and soon they would be with Jesus. Here's that part of the call. I don't know what else to say.

Sam Christ, when he comes again and he's coming to stand and we will all stand there and you will know at that point that he has supported me and has supported me the whole time and I have not been to see. This is proof to me that this whole scheme was based upon Chad's belief system and his status as a profit and his

desire to lead the 144,000. Back in the 1980s, a criminologist by the name of Robert Holmes began to develop a typology of different serial killers. And Holmes essentially came up with four different types of serial killers. And I think this is interesting at this point to introduce this research. It'll provide some insight into this case. Holmes believed that the first type of serial killer was what he called a visionary serial killer. A classic visionary serial killer would be Charles Manson. Manson was driven by command hallucinations about killing people. He believed that voices were directing him to kill.

A classic visionary serial killer is someone who's psychotic, essentially, are paranoid schizophrenic, like Manson, who has a vision from voices or God. or other sources outside of oneself that directs them to kill. So that's the first class of serial killer. That's a visionary serial killer. The second kind of serial killer is what Holmes called the hedonistic serial killer. The hedonistic serial killer essentially kills for the thrill of it. Well, actually, Holmes amended that later.

He said there were three reasons that hedonistic serial killers kill. One was the thrill. another was greed and another was lust. In this category, two of the best known hedonistic serial killers would be Jeffrey Dahmer and John Wayne Gasey, both of who killed from lust, essentially, from their arousal in the case of John Wayne Gacy, sexual arousal to children. John Wayne Gacy was not only a pedophile, but a pedophile with an extremely violent, homicidal personality who was unable to contain his sexual urges and derive pleasure from

raping and murdering children. Gacy would fall into the class of hedonistic serial killers. The third type of serial killer that Holmes identified, and many of these categories, by the way, are still widely recognized and used today to understand the various types of serial killers. The third type of serial killer is what Holmes called the power and control-oriented type. This type of serial killer essentially derives gratification from the complete control of the victim. When this type of serial killer exerts control over the life of the victim, the murderer experiences pleasure and excitement, not necessarily from the sexual part, as John Wayne Gacy did,

but from the belief that he has the power to do whatever he wants to another human being who's then rendered completely helpless and within his total control. An example of a power and control type of serial killer would be Israel Keys. Keys was very much consumed by absolutely controlling his victims and watching them suffer. There was something very sadistic about Keys, and I think that fits into this category of the power and control serial killer. Typically, these are your classic psychopaths. These are killers that get a lot of pleasure out of sadistically harming their victims, controlling their victims, watching their victims suffer. This would be Israel Keys.

The final type of serial killer that Holmes identified is now going to land us in the realm of Chad DeBal and Lori Valo. And that is the mission-oriented serial killer. The mission-oriented serial killer kills because they're trying to fulfill a mission. oftentimes that mission will be related to some type of purification, some type of desire to rid the world of a particular class of people. In this case, classic example of a mission-oriented serial killer would be Hitler. The Nazi regime was based upon racial purification. Hitler's goal was to rid the world of Jews who we perceived as being impure.

If that rings a bell, it's because in our last podcast we talked about one of the books that Chad had written where he talked about going to a world of purity and cleanliness. Right. There's a similarity there, except that Chad's purification is based upon ridding the world of zombies, which, again, brings us back to his rating system. We can't seem to ever avoid that. In his rating system, Chad clearly has the ability to preside over life and death by judging people. The goal is to get rid of dark spirits, to retain good spirits, specifically the 144,000,

that presumably will be chosen by him, and to create this world that's pure and clean and holy and untouched by human problems or human dilemmas. Hitler was able to orchestrate a significantly larger movement. Nazi Germany was on the cusp of collapse when Hitler took over. I think there was a lot of desperation in Germany at the time. The currency was being devalued. There were so many reasons why the nation was searching for

a scapegoat. If Chad Daibo wanted to muster a similar response, I doubt he's going to find it by appealing to people's desire to rid the world of zombies. I guess unless you think the Walking Dead is real. Melanie Gibb and Lori seem to. Right. If you think, if you take the Walking Dead to be factual, then perhaps you might, you know, jump in on Chad's cult. But if not, then you're probably going to resist joining a cult that thinks that portals are cool. And, zombies are the answer to cleaning up the world. When you think about Chad as a mission-oriented serial killer, there's a massive irony here,

which is that Chad's trying to create this pure world and the afterlife, and he's doing it through the most impure means of purification possible, which is murder, right? What could be more impure than murder, than dead bodies, than dismembered bodies, right? It's a huge paradox. This is someone who lacked any insight or self-knowledge whatsoever to realize that the means to getting to that world, according to him, is probably the most immoral, impure type of behavior that any human being can engage in.

And he had no problem doing it. Right. Thinking of himself as a deity obviously helped, as I said, in the beginning of this podcast, that if you're a deity, you make the rules. Well, this is why he's also a terrorist. I'll be talking a lot about that analogy with terrorism when we talk about Lori in some future episodes, by the way. So stay tuned. We will get to Lori. So before we sign off, a few of our listeners have pointed out our podcast seems to have some value to them because it's not only about crime.

The crime is a vehicle through which we can talk about the human condition. And even the positive side of people, we're trying to end with an aspiration that looks at crime, but then goes beyond crime and maybe helps us think about human beings in general. I want to do that again. When I was in grad school, I developed a friendship with another future psychologist at the University of Southern California. When he left grad school, he went into private practice for a number of years, and then he became disgruntled with private practice,

and he felt that life coaching was the way to go, because he felt like he wasn't addressing enough of the positive facets of human beings, that clinicians typically, myself included, we spend a lot of time dealing with the dark side of people and with problems and pathology and, you know, that gets hard. I talked to him about switching over to life coaching, and I asked him, what's your focus going to be? What is it you want to really help people with? And he told me that he believed working on people's missions was the most important thing, that he wanted people to develop really clear missions about their lives,

much like a company. So I'm sure all of us at some point have had to sing the company song, whether we liked it or not. Getting back to mission-oriented organizations was a massive movement in like the late 90s, early 2000s. I think that's less true today. But at the time he was doing this, it was around that time. And when companies were all talking about getting mission focused, developing missions, he thought that was a great idea. When I just apply this to human means. So everybody that came to see him, you'd say, what's your mission?

What's your goal? What's your purpose in life? And I think there's some value in that for sure. I think all of us need to have some sense of purpose, probably some type of mission if we can. I think that's helpful. But here's my critique. What if you become so wrapped up in your mission that there's no room for flexibility? What if that mission takes over your life, like Chad Debo? What if that mission consumes you? What if that mission involves murdering children at some point and you're so wrapped up in that mission, you don't even see it? You don't even acknowledge it. What's the risk in that? I think my caveat to my friend, the life coach, I don't know if you're listening, maybe you are,

would be you can have a mission, but I would highly recommend you keep that mission flexible. That's what I call resiliency. Resiliency is about having a mission and a purpose, but building some flexibility. Life changes quickly. Everything changes quickly. Nothing lasts forever. I think our missions should reflect the fact that. our goals are going to change, our life is going to change in unexpected ways. If your mission

is something that really resonates with you, I say stay with it, but also stay open to the fact that when it becomes clear that your new Jerusalem isn't going to happen, you need to adapt. You need to change that mission. When I'm talking about this now, I'm also thinking about a famous Charles Dickens character, Ebenezer Scrooge. The reason I'm thinking about that is because Scrooge had a very clear mission in life, which was to make money and to run a successful business. He didn't really care about much else. For Scrooge, one of the great lessons he learned was that his employees mattered, and that

specifically the child in one of his employees, Tiny Tim, mattered a lot. When the ghost of Christmas future takes Scrooge into the future, what he's trying to make clear to Scrooge is that his legacy, whether he likes it or not, involves children. Tiny Tim becomes a metaphor for a world in which children are not only disabled, Tiny Tim is disabled, but a world in which children are impoverished. I think part of what Dickens is trying to say is that the future of any society is highly dependent upon children. Even if we don't have kids, as Scrooge didn't. Scrooge realized that. Scrooge had to change his mission to recognize the importance of children for building.

a viable community and a viable future. And so I think one of the tragedies of this case, maybe the biggest tragedy of this case, is the fact that children were murdered for no reason. And that in some ways, when we have a mission that neglects or overlooks the importance of children, whether we have them or not, is when we neglect or overlook the importance of children,

in some ways we're overlooking not only our legacy, but the ability of our community to survive into the future. I think that's what Dickens knowingly or unknowingly is really getting at. Again, the tragedy of this case is that their mission had no concern for the kids. In fact, was willing to go so far as to kill them, to murder them, to prove that the new Jerusalem took precedence over everything else. The question, the obvious question I would have for anyone who's trying to develop a mission

or an important mission would be, does it in some ways incorporate? something pro-social about the future. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, children are a part of that future. Whatever else happens to society, there can't be a future without acknowledging the importance of the children in our society. In fact, I would say,

if we don't protect our kids, what's left? What else do we have? If I had a chance to revisit this issue with my life coach friend, I think I might ask him, what if Chad and Lori Daybell walked into your office, with their mission. How would you handle that? Would you see that as a positive scenario? Would you

try to change their mission? And why would you do that? After all, it's their mission. It's the thing they're most passionate about, right? How would you handle that? Is it ever okay to have a mission where killing children is acceptable? Is it ever permissible to have a mission where killing thousands of people, if you're a terrorist, is acceptable? As a life coach, is it your job to promote that mission or is it your job to change it? Well, I would hope it would be to change it. But do you change it to another mission? Right. And then whose mission is it? I mean, what would you do? Well, first of all, I wouldn't be as wrapped up in promoting a mission. And this is why. Right. I might endorse having a mission to some degree if that's what the person is invested in. But I think I might challenge it to see if it's

consistent with what they really value. I think the real trick here is getting people to reflect deeply on who they are and what they really value and whether the mission's consistent with that. So I think in the end, Chad Daybel and Lori Val lost sight of that. They lost sight of who they really were. And that's something I'm going to be talking a lot with Lori. My aspiration, if you're going to have a mission, stay flexible, stay resilient. Resiliency is the key. Have the ability to go with the flow. Know who you are, know what's your value. And based on that, don't lose sight of it. And I think you'll find your way. When we started our podcast, we had a mission to stay consistent to not miss a week. But after moving, we realized we had to be flexible.

So thank you to those who have stuck with us, even though we missed a week. We're going to keep going. We're so grateful for the fans that reach out to us like Felicia. Let us know what you are liking, what you want more of, which we know is Lori Valo. She's coming. In the meantime, go like our Facebook page, Hidden a True Crime podcast, our Instagram page at Hidden True Crime. Our website is coming. We're being flexible on that too, as it's taken a lot longer than we thought.

And if you want to hear the entire 20-minute phone call between Lori, Melanie, and Chad, we will have a link to that on our Facebook page. Again, it's Hidden a True Crime podcast or at Hidden True Crime. Go check that out. In addition to those that need a bit more backstory or want to keep the timeline very clear because you have a mind like mine and you're a journalist and you just need all the details. Tiley's aunt has put together an incredible timeline. I'm going to have a link to that timeline that you can see also on our Facebook page. So go check out both the link to the entire 20 minute phone call as well as this in-depth detailed timeline of everything that has happened with this case.

Thank you to those that are sharing with your friends that we have a seat for them as well at our dinner table. Dinner's wrapping up. We're finishing dessert. I want to reiterate the importance of staying safe and wearing a helmet and trying to stay out of portals if you can. If you do find yourself in a portal, stay flexible. We can get out of there. It's never. too late to find your way out. If you do find yourself in a portal, try as hard as you can not to have that portal transport you to Chad Daybell's utopian world. Just get out. Stop, drop, and roll.

From the portal. From the portal, it is not too late to redirect your mission and get out. Stay flexible. We'll even provide you upon request with our three-year-old's helmet. Thank you so much for joining us. Have a great week and good night. Good night. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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