Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL- News Nation Correspondents Brian Entin and Alex Caprariello, along with Gigi with Pretty Lies and Alibis talks to Lauren Matthias about their experience at the Lori Vallow Daybell trial

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Host Lauren Matthias sat each day in court during Lori Vallow Daybell's trial in Boise, Idaho sharing updates from court and appearing with Alex, Brian and Gigi for News Nation broadcasts. She worked daily with each of the guests. Brian Entin is a News Nation Senior National Correspondent. An Emmy award-winning journalist well known for his coverage of the Gabby Petito case, and now the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho. Entin most recently worked as a reporter for WSVN in Miami. Brian covered several major hurricanes, and spent much of the first 100 days of the Trump presidency in Washington, DC. He has won Emmy Awards for his coverage of the aftermath of the Fuego Volcano eruption in Guatemala and his coverage of the death of Cuban dictator Fidel Castro. In 2018, Brian extensively covered the Parkland school shooting and was the first reporter to obtain video of the shooter attacking deputies in jail. He also was the first reporter with video of Charles Kinsey — an unarmed man with his hands in the air — shot by police in North Miami. Prior to working in Miami, Brian was a reporter at WPTV in West Palm Beach, WTOC in Savannah, and KTVO in Kirksville, Missouri. He graduated from the University of Missouri. FOLLOW BRIAN HERE: https://twitter.com/brianentin ALEX CAPRARIELLO is a News Nation Morning in America’s West Coast Correspondent. Morning in America airs weekdays from 7ET to 10 ET. Born in Raleigh, North Carolina, Caprariello has also lived in Princeton, New Jersey, Madison, Wisconsin, Phoenix, Arizona, Fayetteville, Arkansas and most recently Austin, Texas. Caprariello earned his bachelor’s degree from the W.P. Carey School of Business at Arizona State University in 2013. He later received his master’s degree in Journalism from ASU’s Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication in 2016. Caprariello joined News Nation after beginning his career at KNWA/KFTA in Fayetteville, Arkansas. He was the weekend anchor and senior reporter at the NBC/Fox affiliate located in Northwest Arkansas. Known for his in-depth reporting, Caprariello began working at investigative powerhouse KXAN in Austin in 2018. As the station’s lead education reporter, he quickly established credibility within the community through accurate and dependable reporting on K-12 issues during the pandemic. Caprariello won numerous awards while in Austin, including a Lone Star Emmy for his two-part investigative series, Racism at Westlake. The investigation uncovered years of alleged racism within the halls of a dominant academic and athletic high school in the Texas suburbs. Caprariello was also honored with awards from the Texas State Teachers Association, the Association of Texas Professional Educators and the Society of Professional Journalists. While in Arkansas, Caprariello initiated a number of notable reports including an analysis of the state’s struggle to launch the medical marijuana industry, an examination into allegations of bribery in a tightly-contested mayoral race and an investigation which uncovered repeated abuse of patients in a treatment center for deviant children. His special report, “Pricing Parenthood: The Cost of In Vitro Fertilization,” which details the financial burdens infertile families experience when undergoing last-resort procedures, was a finalist for best television feature by the Society of Professional Journalists Diamond Journalism Awards. FOLLOW ALEX HERE: https://twitter.com/alcaprari23 GIGI is the host of the podcast “Pretty Lies and Alibis” and covered the trial as a Law and Crime correspondent and also appeared on News Nation. Listen HERE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/pretty-lies-alibis/id1519114534 LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Follow her on FACEBOOK: https://facebook.com/hiddentruecrime or on TWITTER: https://twitter.com/hiddentruecrime Contact at: [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hidden, a true crime podcast, a forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crime. while examining our deepest fears along the way. This conversation was originally recorded on May 29th,

2023. It was to come together to talk about the Lori Valo-Dabelle trial and as reporters and podcasters, each of our different experiences. And to also ask News Nation reporters about the Brian Coburger case and updates there. I, Lauren, was in Florida at the time of this recording, and we did not have our regular studio, which is why the audio is a little different. Thanks for understanding. Hey, everyone.

I picked these three incredible journalists to be with me tonight for a special live because I admire each of them so much. And all of us were at the daybell trial together. We shared texts, we shared tweets, we shared seats on the benches. Alex is a correspondent, national correspondent for News Nation.

As is Brian Enton. Brian Enton is the senior correspondent for News Nation. The way Alex and I met, I got a call in Boise and from a News Nation producer, all three of us. And Gigi, I'm going to introduce Gigi in a bit. I know many of you know her, but News Nation told me, hey, we need you to report tonight. Meet Alex at the sheriff's office in Boise. I took an Uber there. And it was nice and warm, wasn't it, Alex when I arrived?

It was like a nice. Yeah, so nice. It was an even temperature and it went from like 70 to 20 degrees in about five minutes. And I was freezing and I was just getting to know you. We had just met and you had your hit. You were on and then you had to pass the microphone to me. And it started pouring down rain during commercial break. And this gentleman grabbed an umbrella and held it over me the entire live shot.

So you let me over. Statue of Liberty, just off camera where you couldn't see me. Love it. I was keeping you warm. I remember standing up in front of the camera, watched like, not on camera yet, but looking at these dark clouds coming and being like, man, it would really stink if it rained on me during this live shot.

And I made it through my live shot. Of course, when you step in front of the camera, that's when the point came down. And I just felt so bad. I was like, okay, I got to help her out. I got to help her. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. So Alex won me over the night I met. him. I was like, what a gentleman. Not only is a picture of it somewhere, we're going to have to share it after this live, live stream finishes. Can I talk about Brian Inton helping me? So I can talk about us breaking the law

now that we're out of Idaho, but we j-walked across the six-lane highway. We were running and my phone fell out and there are cars starting to come. And I'm just gone and Brian's like, wait, and he turns and he's like Superman. He puts his arm out and gets my phone

and save my iPhone. So there you go. We had two superheroes right here. Or you lose your phone, you know? Yeah. No, I appreciate that. You were willing to risk life and limb. So thank you. That's a friend.

See, Alex and I, we got you guys covered. You do. That's all we need are you two? You do. You guys really did help us. And Gigi is amazing. I want to say Gigi is with the podcast, pretty lies and alibis. But not only does she host her own podcast, she was a correspondent for law and crime

during the entire daybell trial. Not only was she doing long crime, she jumped on and then started being a News Nation correspondent. And then she'd go back to her Airbnb and do her own podcast. So speaking of people that never rest, Gigi's also one of them. I know that we would joke while in trial, you know, people like wanted to hang out after and we're like, who has done to hang out? I wish we had more time for sure. Yes. Yes.

So anyway, these three people, I admire them so much. They're incredible journalists. all three of them. So thank you for being here. I wanted to just sort of recap the daybell trial, our experiences at the trial. It's something that hidden true crime has been requested quite a bit. Dr. John and I, I call him Dr. John now, you know, my husband, I don't call him Dr. John a home, except sometimes I maybe slip. John and I did a Patreon episode discussing the trial, but I wanted to have some amazing

reporters together discuss Brian and Gigi and I would all sit in the same place. Alex, you liked a different place. You found like a kind of a different bench, but we liked it right by the jury. That's sort of like where we'd all group with a few other people. And, you know, we were all live tweeting. I know that all of us, even Alex, like all four of us would help each other when we lost a live tweet moment, you know, like, wait, did you, what did they say? You know, we were all helping each other.

And it was definitely a team effort. With that being said, I just wanted to ask anyone to share some stories about the trial that maybe you didn't necessarily report. You know, there's the stories we report and there's the stories that happen a bit behind the scene. Gigi, I know you were discussing one. You've actually also reported it. But about a girl you were mentioning the, the Tiley look alike that we all got to know.

I talked to her. She was wonderful. She was sweet. Yeah. So we just, you know, after a few days and this girl and her mom were pretty regular at the trial when they could get into the main courtroom, which seemed like almost every day to me, but she looked a lot like Tiley. And Lori would look at her.

Now, where we were sitting, sometimes it depended on where like Rob Woodshead was or where the prosecution monitor was, whether or not we could actually see Lori. But there were times when I had a straight shot to Lori and this girl was in the courtroom, she would look over at her. I mean, and stare. And it just, and so people thought maybe she was planted there or she was a relative of Lori Valos. Both of those are not true. This girl just happened to look like Tiley, who covered this case or followed this case from kind of the beginning with her mom. and they were just local to Boise. It just so happened that she looked eerily similar to Tiley

and was the same age Tiley would have been. So I just wanted to clear that up. I've seen a lot of things online about that. Not related, nothing like that. Thank you for clearing that up. Yes, I also talked to her and her mother. She was there with her mother each day. And yet no relation.

They were invested. But it is true. You're right. Lori did watch her. Lori did see her and confirmed with the defense that Lori did notice her, that she was noticing her and looked at her. The idea of it being, you know, a conspiracy or that it was, is a plant, you know, that sounds really, you know, far-fetched and highly unlikely.

But regardless, if this young woman did look very much like Lori Vallow, Daybell's daughter, you know, you got to imagine it had some sort of psychological effect on her sitting there. You know, if, you know, her, the family, the, her cousins and her uncle Rex, we're all there to the right. And if you continue to look to your right and you see someone that looks exactly like your daughter, that's got to be, you know, weighing on your heart and your head that entire length of the time that that woman was sitting there. So, you know, whether or not this was an actual plant or not, you know, that's, it doesn't sound like it, but still it's going to have some sort of effect on the trial. I imagine, or at least the way Lori handled herself

each day. You know, Brian, I remember at one point, I tried to introduce you to some interesting people that I would speak to. And there was one woman that I recognized from TikToks from Julie Rowe, which was really complicated for those that are not following this case full time. I'm like, so Julie, you know, you're like all these different string connections. But we got it covered. And I introduced you and you realized that they had been to some preparing a people conferences.

And I noticed that you talking to them a bit. But did you meet anyone that was interesting to you or anything that stood out to you? You interviewed a woman who had been in jail with Lori Daybell. It was interesting to me, like, and you guys saw this too. Like just being in the courtroom, there were so many characters and people from the community or people you didn't really know who they were. They weren't reporters. And you would talk to them.

Like the one day, there was this lady there. And we just started chatting with her. And she's like, oh, yeah. I'm like, well, why did you decide to come today? And she said, oh, I'm here because I was actually in jail with Lori. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. We ended up interviewing her. and she had this whole really interesting story.

She had had multiple DUIs, and that's why she was in jail with Lori. And the woman who was her prosecutor in one of her DUI cases was the same prosecutor in the Lori Valo trial. And she actually went up during a break and talked to the prosecutor and was like, I just want to thank you. I've changed my life. And the prosecutor remembered her too, this woman who had all the DUIs, which was just kind of like a strange. Were you in there for that, Gigi? I can't remember her. Yeah, by the way, I just want to throw in.

She is an amazing woman. super sweetly. She is. Thank you for sharing that. She really is. She brought me lunch a few times, but she noticed I wasn't. Yeah, so nice. Thank you, Gigi. There were two other things that start to me. One was like when we were waiting on the verdict when it's like this weird time where everybody's just sitting around the courtroom and people are like kind of stretched out and no one knows what's going to happen next and how long it's going to take and it was just kind of like quiet in there. It's just a weird vibe. And someone was like, oh, do you guys like people were hungry because there was no food.

And they're like, oh, Brian, do you want a sandwich? And it's always kind of like my normal inclination to be like, no, no, I'm fine. Like I don't normally like to take like food from people. It's just, you know, like, usually I'm fine or whatever. But for some reason, I never like say yes. But I was like, you know, I do kind of want a sandwich. So I was like, okay, sure, you know. And then we went into this side room.

Lauren was there. And it was Larry and Kay and they were sitting in there just like the side room next to the courthouse. And they had some extra sandwiches that they gave us. And it was just. this really like interesting moment because they're such good people and to just like be in there with them realizing that like this isn't just a story like for us it's it's a story but for them like here they are eating their sandwich is waiting to find out what the verdict is you know um i don't know that that's like a moment i'll never forget i mean to just be sitting in there with them eating waiting

for for the verdict to come down and then the last thing i wanted to say just in terms of what i'll take away from this is just how amazing Lauren and Gigi are. Like, and I'm sure Alex will agree with me. You know, we get sent to these stories all the time all over the country. And it's like, you know, you know the basics, you know enough. But like the two of you are really, it's incredible. Like you are experts on these stories that you cover. And you can literally answer any question. I mean, I would ask you guys a million questions a day. And I just honestly, I was inspired by that. the way that you guys have dug into this and all these stories that you do to such a deep level beyond what I do is really, really impressive.

Thank you. That is a lot. Brian, thank you. You know, it's been an interesting experience. I, you know, being a TV reporter, not a national TV reporter like both of you are, but being a TV reporter, myself, a local TV reporter, you don't have the opportunity to delve. into one story for six months or a year or two years, right? I have really valued that ability since becoming a podcaster to be able to just focus on a story, but that's really kind.

You guys, it's incredible how many stories both of you cover. I want to point out the case that it was amazing to meet Brian while waiting verdict in the room while eating sandwiches. I do remember that moment. I won't forget it either because it was emotional for me to see, as you point out, like there are relatives of Lori Daybell in the room. There are relatives of JJ who we no longer have here. There were relatives of Tammy.

There were some media beyond us who were being very respectful. There was a victim's advocate. It was when you looked around the room. It was this amazing moment. And we all understood the weight of what was really happening, as you point out. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's kind of like one of those moments when you don't feel like a reporter. You're just like, it didn't feel like you were there.

I wasn't trying to, like, take notes on what was happening. I was just, like, feeling it, you know? Yeah. I got to give credit to a lot of these family members that are in the courtroom at this time because, and I'll speak to the Woodcock's in specific about this, because this is what I took away from them is, you know, a lot of times when you are involved in a story, be it a victim's family member or something like that, and you are in the presence of a reporter,

you just kind of clam up a little bit. You don't want to say something, in which case this reporter will take my words out of context or, you know, do, you know, just bad thoughts come into your head. And so you just kind of shut down. But I saw nothing but, you know, grace, humility, and honesty from the Woodcocks, whenever I would speak to them,

Larry N.K., and they were just genuine and thoughtful and just so kind. It probably is a little bit of that southern charm that came out. But either way, it felt as if I was, was they were allowing me in in a way that people just normally don't and you know it's i took away walking away from that trial that you know it's all about relationships the relationships that you have with other people and your family and your friends and reporter to reporter podcaster to podcaster victims families to reporter you know and and there was just so many different relationships that were

all floating around this room that's kind of what i'm taking away from brian's story about this sandwich room right there's just so many different people from so many people from so many different backgrounds, but you were just people in that moment, you know, eating San Francisco. You know, just to echo these two amazing men, it was a collaboration more than it was just a bunch of individuals there covering a case. A lot of us have followed this since a long time ago, since these first three and a half years, you know, it's been almost four. And, you know, so that makes it very personal for all of us that have grown to love Kay and Larry and the family members and Jerry, who I finally got to meet, who was hilarious. But, you know, that's

Gary Valo. Yeah, he is a trip. But, you know, the one thing that I'm constantly reminded of in the true crime world is in the midst of darkness and tragedy, the beautiful silver lining, I guess if there is any, are the friendships that come in the midst of tragedy that would have never happened. And of course, we always wish they never, we never would have had to have met each other under these circumstances. But because we're all here, the beauty and the friendships that have been made that will be lifelong that helped, you know, C. and Larry get through tough times or whatever. I think that's the takeaway is that those are things that like Lori and Chad and every

co-conspirators known and unknown can't touch. And that's, you know, I think that's just a little help from the other side just to kind of get their story out there. And also for the families to make it easier in the beautiful friendships they formed. And then all of us that professionally have made friendships. and, you know, so there is a silver lining to it. That's always my takeaway from attending a trial. I've seen it with everyone.

This one, a little different, a lot more special, I have to say. You know, and this is my first trial. All of you have probably covered a lot of trials. I've sat in court as a reporter, but I've never been able to cover an entire trial through until this. So this is my only experience. So thanks for sharing that, Gigi. First of I want to share this, Laura Ferris was a victim's advocate for Kay and Larry at the trial. and I just pinned a comment of her.

She says, every morning, Larry would say hello to everyone. This is true. Always asked how everyone was. It didn't matter who they were, the defense, the spectator, or media. His concern and care was displayed daily. I absolutely recognize that. Yeah, the media were we were treated like people, like human beings, like friends. In fact, I'll never forget one day.

We were out both reporting for News Nation. I think we were both doing different hits. And you were doing one earlier. I was doing one later. I finished. And I looked at my phone. you have to understand, like set the stage here. During the trial, you are getting so many texts. I was getting more text than emails. I don't know about you guys, but between producers and other

people are there, I found myself on text thread lists for media and I didn't know who was sending them. They're just coming through and I'm missing a lot of them. And you're live tweeting and Judge Boyce, make sure you know that if every single notification isn't off, your phone will be confiscated. I had just finished News Nation. And I was dazed and confused all these times. text coming through and I look at my phone and Gigi's text me so are you coming for lasagna. I'm like, wait, what? I was like, I'm coming for lasagna. Like, help me out here, Gigi.

I put on like two hours of sleep and I'm like and you know, and I was riding me in Uber's. You had a rental car. I was like coming for lasagna and she's like, just start walking. I'm like, we'll start walking. What? All of a sudden she's like, look, I'm coming to pick you up and you pulled over and I got in your car and I still was confused.

she's like, Kay and Larry Woodcock are making this lasagna. And I was like, what? And we got there. And I'm telling you, these are the survivors. These are the people we're all here for. They made a dinner that night. It was so good, by the way.

Kay, look, my dad just has like one bowl of gumbo left by the way and he's saving it. We can't touch it. We've been threatened to be cut out of the will if we touched that last bowl of gumbo. She made a gumbo. So I just, I just, it just reiterates what Laura is saying about Larry and Kay. Yeah. I was I was on two hours of sleep. I was

dazed and confused. There was a text from Kay I'd missed. She said, did you get, why didn't you answer my text? I apologize, Kay. I didn't know where I was. And all of a sudden, this moment of like realizing, you know, days and confused that Gigi picked me up and the victims of the story are making me dinner was a very humbling moment. So that's, that's the moment I won't forget. So Thank you. I think to Gigi's point about the friendships and the relationships, it's so important with stories like these where they're just so difficult with such, you know, sometimes horrific facts surrounding the case where these friendships and relationships that you build are

so necessary in helping ourselves. You know, we're not invincible as, you know, professionals. We have emotions, too, and it can cut deep sometimes. And so having peers, colleagues, friends, and family surrounding. yourself, making you with the Zanya, you know, I'm sure in a way that you helped Kay and Larry in their healing too, you know, just by being that presence during dinner and sharing a meal together. And so I, I, too, echo what Gigi said. Friendships and relationships are so huge because, you know, you guys are all going through it together at once. Yeah, I've never had

crime scene photos affect me personally the way these did. I have struggled with that since I've been home. And I'm doing much better. And I have talked through it with, with some trusted people but that was the one thing for me is I did not see that coming. I were used to seeing the worst of the worst. Children are always, there's a different kind of weight to seeing those. For me, the crime scene photos hit me harder than I ever thought they would. Yeah, I agree. I feel like, and I don't know if it's the same with you, Alex and Gigi and Lauren,

but like every like story I cover like long term or really in an intense way, like a trial or whatever it may be, like, normally. Normally, like, I kind of have this, like, wall up, and I don't really feel a lot of emotion, like, because I try to just, like, and that's the only way to power through for me. But there's, like, usually one time where, like, it kind of, like, breaks through. Like, and it's almost like it tries and tries, and then there's, like, that one time, and then it does come through. And it's almost, like, a relief because, like, you can get some of it out. And then you're also like, okay, good, I am, like, human, you know? But for me it was the crime scene.

It was the photo of JJ. Like I wasn't expecting it. Like a lot of other awful stuff in court. And then like right when I saw that, it was like just again, like reporter left me. And it was just like, oh my God. Like this is real, you know. It was heavy. That night I was, I think 30 seconds from going live on Cuomo.

And poor Shanley and court TVs over there in the corner, I rent my mic off. because I just couldn't eat lunch that day, and I just went and lost probably all 65 ounces of coffee I had on my stuff. Yeah, I remember that. You know, I just, it just was such a heavy day and it just, it all just manifested.

And then I remember on the plane ride home crying, like just, you know, because it's just quiet and it's, it's the middle of the night, everybody's asleep. And so, you know,

I just remember thinking like, gosh, I mean, really, it's, you know, and I'm much better now. And I'm,

I definitely feel more at peace with it. But that for me was just unexpected in a way. because I used to work in a morgue. So I've seen every kind of death you could think of. But it was that personal aspect of loving Kay and Larry so much and feeling like they're part of me now and they always will be. It just made it that much more personal. And then, you know, his story just over the years learning who JJ was,

it's not just a case you're covering. That's a real little human being right there that even though you never met him and you never will, you love. Same with Tiley and Tammy and Charles. It's very bizarre how it happens, but you do feel connected. And I think in this one, for a lot of us, more than the typical cases that we cover. It's not that there's not a lack of love or devastation that it happened, but some cases just get you a little harder than others.

And this was that for me, and it probably will be, you know, the one throughout however long I do this, that really just got me. But I'm glad it did because then it gives me more drive to tell the story, to tell their story and not just what happened to them, but who they were before that happened. So for me, that was kind of the biggest lesson, honestly, that I took away. Thank you, Gigi, for what you just said. To reiterate what Brian said,

I know exactly what you mean about, like, there's journalists and there's personal and the way I power through. I'll never forget those days either. That last day you're talking about the closing arguments, none of us expected the photos. And then there was another day that Kay mentioned she missed. It was the day she missed and she cooked us dinner. They were showing them,

And I do exactly what you do. The way I power through is I just report. People are like, how do you do it? I don't know if people notice, but during the hard times, that's actually when I'm like live tweeting like in a fury. Like I'll just be live tweeting, live tweeting so fast, writing, writing, writing. Because people say, how do you power through it? I'm like, work.

You just work. And I want to reiterate that to people think the media don't have feelings and it's not personal. Actually, we do. Don't you guys agree? You just put your game face on and you keep going. And there's so many times, even as a reporter, that I would do that you put your game face on, you work, and then you go home and then you cry, you know, or whatever it is that you do. Yeah, I would say for me, it, it, it, what I've noticed

recently is that it comes at the end, you know, after a long assignment, maybe days or weeks, you know, I'm able to power through each day because I'm just so zoned in or because I have it, I recognize the duty that I have to accomplish or the job at hand, but then it's after on the flight back home or, you know, when I'm back here with my, my fiance, in which case, like, it all comes unraveling out. And it is, to Ryan's point, it's a bit of a release. It makes you feel better. It makes you recognize that you aren't just some emotionless robot.

But hopefully, you know, when the time comes that you've got to do your job, you're able to stay strong. But for me, at least it comes towards the end, that release at the very end when the task is done. Yeah, we all cope, right? We all do it. We all have sad stories. I don't think I've hugged my kids harder than when I came in the door for that last time and not having to leave. You know, it was Mother's Day weekend and I just hugged my babies because, you know, it's not all the time that a parent does this.

We strangers. And then you just think for a second, you know, thank God I have not been a statistic or my kid hasn't been a statistic. And I haven't walked in the shoes of these family members, the survivors, the living victims. It's just, it was a powerful six weeks for me in a lot of ways. but emotionally, a lot of lessons learned about myself, which I hope in the future can mold the podcast too, you know. Nate Eaton and Justin Lum, who are not here, how amazing those two guys are.

They are Salt of the Earth, good guys with the biggest hearts, who were so emotionally invested in this case, and who were the people I followed before I even started this podcast. I just want to shout them out as well. And Chandley Painter, just everybody, but those two were kind of the originals on this case reporting. I mean, Justin Lund reported from when Charles was murdered way before we really even knew who Lori Ballet was.

And they were so humble and just willing to share things, you know. And so I just want to acknowledge those two as well because they're such a big part of this story as a whole in how they've told it and kept us informed. So I just, Nate and Justin, man, they're just good people. Yeah, I asked Nate a bunch of questions too. the time and he was always like super helpful and nice. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. I know that is true. One thing we learned in the trial, I guess I kind of connected it to Murdoch. You know, Murdoch case, everyone knows it was sort of the boat crash that was this dominoes, right,

that created everything. We learned during this Dave L trial that it was Brandon Boudreau's a shooting where it was an attempted murder on Brandon's life that sort of got the ball rolling with everything else and that happened in Arizona. And you're right. That happened before everything. and that was Justin Lum, and he was reporting on that, and it was his station, and as a reporter,

that clung to this Charles Vallow shooting and didn't let it go. So you're right. A lot of credit to Justin. A lot of credit. I did reach out to Nate, and I reached out to Chanley. They're incredible, and I want to say this, too. I think this is a moment. We've talked about the emotions in trial and how it's just heavy for so many different people

and for so many. There was a moment in closing arguments where Jim Archibald started to get emotional during closing arguments. many people when I played the audio on Hidden Chew Crime said, this is these are alligator tears. This isn't real. But I hope I want to say I believe they were real. What I mean is everyone got emotional some way and somehow this was a heavy trial.

And I can't imagine that the defense was immune, whether that means that you are defending this, this person that did these heinous acts and she's about to get a guilty verdict. necessarily think the tears were empathy for her. I don't know what they were, but I guess I just want to explain that too. I believe every tier that was shed in this trial was very real. And I guess I just want to share that. It was heavy. Yeah, and we would see him up on the, sorry to interrupt you, we would see him up on the fourth floor too, because the trial was on the third floor. And then at lunch on the fourth floor, you could see him up there, uh, just sort of like pacing. And you could tell

like he was trying to collect himself during the breaks too. And, you know, he was just doing his job. I mean, you know, that's the way our Constitution set up. I mean, you know. Yeah, the defense are, they're very nice guys. I mean, they were just super sweet. And, you know, everybody's entitled to a defense. And, you know, she got her defense.

But, I mean, Lori tied their hands behind their back. Thank goodness, because we got guilty. on all verdicts. But they did what they could do, given the fact, she didn't want to throw a chat under the bus. She didn't want to throw Alex under the bus. No mental illness comes in. But, I mean, it's like, so they did the best they could.

I've heard a lot of people say they didn't defend her. Well, she didn't let them. And I don't think there was a defense for Lori. Lori was the reason Lori was found guilty. She lied. Liabetes. That's my word. Liabetes.

It means that she cannot control her lying. And that's why she is convicted. She's convicted because she allowed this to happen. She knew what was going to happen. So it can't be defended. I don't think with the body cam and the text messages and everything, but I do think those tears were legit from Jim Archibald. I don't think anybody could look at those crime team photos

and know what happened and not feel something. So they were always very kind to me. So I have nothing but nice things to say about all three of the guys on her defense team. I agree. We'll answer Lori's question here. And then we'll jump to Koberger, Brian, I know you need to go soon. So if you need to run.

Yeah, I got to run. Sorry, because I got a flight. Okay. So Lori's asking why haven't we heard from prosecutors? It's because Chad Daybell. Chad Daybell will be prosecuted next year. And that is why right after the Murdoch prosecutor spoke out, after, uh, right after the trial, the Murdoch trial, the prosecutor spoke out.

That is not the case here because they still have to go through the Chad Daybell trial. And that is why they're not speaking out. we should have started with Koeberger because Brian was actually at the indictment. I know, Alex, so that you've been in Moscow. John and I covered Coburger for quite a while. We were on

Dateline covering it. I know that you've discussed it, Gigi on News Nation, I believe. So we've all been covering a bit. Any latest, Alex, can I ask you? You've been to Moscow? You've been covering this? Yeah, I think there's still just so much fascination nationally with this story.

similarly just young innocent lives lost so soon and it's just really captured the attention of so many people and then this bizarre suspect Brian Koberger in his ties to these girls or whether or not he knew them you know it's I think that this is going to be the next case that really captures the attention of America obviously we saw that the indictment as Brian as you were mentioning, Brian was at. So meaning the trial is moving forward, there's enough evidence to prosecute. And I think the biggest question that still remains is whether or not

Coburger will face life in prison, if convicted, or potentially the death penalty. If I'm not mistaken, that's really the next question. You know, with Lori Valo, she wasn't, she, death penalty was never on the table for her with Chad Daybell. it still is. With Brian Koberger, it still is. And in the state of Idaho, that means one of probably two things, which is lethal injection, which we know there's a lot of issues right now nationally with getting those drugs, you know, in the hands of departments of corrections to actually

perform that manner of death versus firing squad, which was the newest thing out of Idaho, too, that that is on the table. And just on its, you know, on its head, it's very, like, scary concept of that in 2023, 24, someone could die by a firing squad, right? It sounds so medieval, but that's very much a real possibility in this case if

Brian Koberger is found guilty of the crimes he's accused of. Thank you for sharing that update. Like I said, I'm still like jumping back into it after Daybaud, and I know you've been in it full. So the next step really is will there be the death penalty?

Sleeping hot? Waking up sweaty at 2 a.m. It's not you. It's your sheets, and Keraloha is your answer. They're the original for bamboo sheets that are naturally breathable, moisture wicking, and luxuriously soft, designed to keep hot sleepers cool and comfortable all night long. You can feel the difference in how much cooler you sleep. Keraloha's innovative bamboo fabric pulls heat away from your body,

so you fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer without cranking the AC. Improve your sleep tonight. Shop Kar Aloha Bamboo Sheets now at Karaloha.com. That's C-A-R-I-L-O-H-A.com. Cooler sleep starts with Keraloha. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first.

It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you have right now. And one of the best things about acorns is they allow you to see projected growth on their website.

Simply go online, type in how much money you'd put in and see the potential future balance of your account. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com slash hidden true crime or download the acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote acorns, tier one compensation provided. Investing involves risk, acorns advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. Hormonal changes are so hard to see the least.

Hot flashes, anyone else. Add in the thousands of hormone disruptors that are in our environment. and it is even worse. From our water food, the air we breathe and the clothes we wear, they are everywhere. But the good news is that when hormone harmony enters the picture, it can help reduce hormonal symptoms in women of all ages. Hormone harmony is a supplement that contains science-backed herbal extracts called adaptogens. The best thing about adaptogens, they help the body adapt to any stressors like chaotic hormonal changes that happen naturally throughout a woman's life. Hormone harmony is actually part of my personal 2024 playbook.

Hormone Harmony makes no compromises when it comes to quality and it shows. For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. That's happy H-A-P-P-P-Y mammoth, M-A-M-M-A-M-M-T-H-M-M-H-M-M-T-H-C. Just use the code hidden true crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. Does anyone else find themselves saying, I feel way older than I actually am, or I feel way younger?

Did you know there might be some truth behind that feeling? That's where true diagnostic comes in. With their true age test, you can discover your true biological age, plus get insights into health risks for heart disease or Alzheimer's, even your mortality. I just ordered my true diagnostic test, and while nervous, I'm looking forward to what it may tell me about my own health so I can take control of things now. When taking tests pertaining to my health, I want to make sure it's scientifically backed and True Diagnostic is. Their true age test is based on peer-reviewed research from scientists working at Harvard, Duke, and Yale. And by tracking your biological age, you can actually see how the changes you make, whether that's exercise, diet, or sleep, will affect your health over time.

Ready to find out your biological age? Right now, our listeners can get 20% off their entire order at True Diagnostic.com by using code hidden true crime at checkout. That's true diagnostic. T-R-U-D-A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.com. Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. Is there any talk of a possible plea deal still?

Any thoughts on that, Alex? Or is it just to wait and see? You know, I think it is possible still. I mean, that would be certainly an... option, right, if to prevent a trial from happening in which case the defense is found guilty and all of a sudden they're sentenced to death. I would imagine that if the defense feels that the cards are stacked against them, then a plea deal would be a logical choice, right? I'll take life in prison without parole. Just don't kill me. So I think what we are going to have to wait and see,

though, is just like these months could, you know, I believe that right now, the trial is set to begin in the fall. However, we could see continuances galore with this thing, where it just continues to get pushed back. We may not see this trial by the end of this year. So I think we're just going to have to wait and see what discovery yields, what type of evidence they feel they have against their man, and likewise how the defense feels playing their cards against that evidence. But certainly, I think if I was still look at my crystal ball, I don't see this trial beginning in 2023. I think that this is going to take a while.

It could begin in 2024 or further. There's just so much that has to happen. And so many curveballs that could come our way when talking about this massive case. Right. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. I am in the same city as Brian right now for other reasons,

but we were going to get together. And now he's flying out for breaking news. So yes, work does not stop. for news nation's news nation correspondence. Why do I like I'm sitting at the kids table, by the way? I need to like get a chair that goes up. You got to elevate.

Or we should call it to scoot back. Well, it all changed when Brian left. Yeah. He's a scapego. He's gone. Blame Brian. You noticed because I wasn't going to be the one to say it.

Okay. Yeah. I just thought we were all even before. Yeah. If I just stick her in the middle, maybe. If I get up too high, then you guys will see like my party leggings. I like them.

They're very, I would wear, though. And then low comfy down here. Yes, jazzy. We call those jazzy on the Hidden Chew Crime channel. Stay jazzy is what we say. Look, between Murdoch and Valo, I have not worn so much makeup in my entire life. I'm a tomboy. I used to climb trees and stuff.

Like, welcome to reporting. Even Alex, right? I had somebody at long crime, send me a makeup tutorial video. That's how bad it was, like the first time. I have no clue what I'm doing. I just kind of push it on and hope it looks all right. When I quit reporting, like, I thought I was retiring forever, even though reporting is sort of like I say the twilight zone. Like, it's really hard to like get into the business, but what's your in, you can never leave.

Like ever. So like one of the many times I retired, you know, I quit during the like right before the pandemic. That was my thing. I was like, I'm never wearing makeup again. I used to love makeup. And then after 10 years of it, I'm like, I'm never putting it on again. And you can see it with hidden true crime like the first like year, I don't even touch it. But now here I am reporting again.

Make a sign. You give in. You give in. Yeah. And Alex, you do a great job. I saw it. You were great. I did my foundation.

You do your best. Yeah. We'll do our best. I just want to answer Priola's question. Do we think we'll move the trial referring to Kovberger to either Ada or Kootenai counties? I think they will move it to Ada County. Moscow is so small. And Alex, you've been there.

Do you want to explain just how small Moscow? Yeah, it's really tiny. It's all the way in the north, northern, northwest part of the state of Idaho. And probably I would say like four or five hours north of Boise, I would say. Boise. But it's just a small college town, right? It's the University of Idaho. They are like, if you ever been to like a college town where like it's like the lifeblood of it,

there's nothing else, right? It's just the University of Idaho and, you know, the surrounding. area is mostly college housing and professors, people, you know, staff and faculty that live in the town and like the little downtown area. Interestingly, like only like 10 miles to the west over the border is the Washington State University, which is where Brian Coburger was a graduate student and presumably where he first made those connections with these young victims. It was that close proximity. So, you know, when we look at the big picture of the magnitude of this crime, like, it would totally make sense to take it out of that county, to bring it to a larger courthouse that could oversee it. Similar to what we saw with the Valadee Bell trial, right? It got moved to a bigger venue because it had such, you know, it had so much weight to it.

It was a big case that had a lot of interest. And so I wouldn't be surprised if it moved down to down to Ada because Laetoc County Jail is small. The Laetoc County Courthouse is very small as well. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, and Kay Woodcock agrees. I bet they move it too. Yeah.

And so we'll probably all be there again together. What do you guys think about Chad, though? I'm going to tell you, I really don't see him taking it to trial. What about you guys? I think maybe like in the last minute, got death on the table. Lori was found guilty on all charges. I've always heard the case against Chad.

have was stronger? What do y'all think? Well, the interesting thing is that, you know, the defense team for Chad Daybell just got a complete run through of what a potential trial might look like for their client. There is no bigger advantage than that than sitting through several weeks of a trial of a co-conspirator and seeing exactly all the likely moves that they believe the prosecution will make. Now, at the same time, the prosecution is not going to show its full hand, and they're going to have a few tricks up their sleeve if it does go to trial with Chad Daybell. But at the same time, that lawyer, you saw him, Chad Davel's lawyer, was in there a lot of that time, right?

He was sitting there taking notes, copious notes. And, you know, even I had some conversations with him after court someday and just Chad had picked his brain and wanted to know how he was feeling. Of course, he really wouldn't budge when it came to, like, you know, on the record information that he could share with me. But at the same time, he was there for a reason, which was to, to say. see exactly the best way that he could help out his client and play his hand, you know? He really watched the jury at crucial moments in testimony too. And I noticed during some of the more juicy texts that were a little stormy, he looked mortified.

So like he's going to be the one at the defense table when these are read again. And then whatever else they may have that they didn't bring in with Lori's trial, there were just times I saw like the reality hidden of like the reaction from the courtroom and the jury at times where his face was like, oh boy. Like, wow. You know, it's different to sit there and hear your client's version all the time. It really comes down to the jury. You know, you can prepare, prepare.

But, I mean, yeah, you saw reality hit him a few times of really what's coming for Chad. And I just, there's a part of me that thinks he had to have went back and said, dude, we need to talk. Like maybe we just don't do this and you escape a life and not have death on the table because I think if death were on the table for Lori, I think it was a good chance she would have got death penalty. I really do. And I think Chad is going to be even easier.

He's a man. Yeah. Yeah. Annalise, who I met at the trial, she agrees that Chad is being toast. I agree with both of you. It was very clear. In fact, at one point,

it was so clear he was toast that the prosecution had to defend him. It was after Archibald's final argument, you know, the closing arguments in chat, you know, it was like, which was like a roast. by Archibald, you know, it was just like, he just was like, look at a picture of Charles and look at a picture of Chad, and you tell me if this is, you know,

someone she should have been attracted to. Listen, it was like an absolute roast. When he asked Audrey, so he said he's the brother of Jesus in one life. Yeah, you believed him? Yeah. He said he was Methusel in one life. He believed him, yeah. Did he ever say in the 1700s, I came back as a loser in that life?

And she's like, no. Like, I had to bite my tongue until I told. taste of blood. I almost busted out laughing. That was funny. Oh, and Colby's call. I mean, there were so many zings on Chad, but, but the point is, like what, to what you said, Gigi, that it was so bad that the prosecution at one point had to come back

and defend him almost, which is they're going to be trying to convict them, you know, in a year, but they were like, look, this was all Lori. It wasn't just Chad. That's how much evidence there was against Chad that they finally had to be like, no, it, Lori is just as culpable. I'm going to say, though, that he's not going to take a plea. I think Pryor might maybe try. I think people might try.

I think Chad's delusional in different ways than Lori. I think he's so ready to throw Lori under the bus. I think he's so ready to throw Lori and Alex under the bus that he thinks he's completely innocent. And that's where I think he's delusional. Do you know what I mean? Like he thinks because maybe he didn't do something to these victims that like he's just this pure, clean, honest, dude. Like, I do not

I am not a Chad friend. I'm not convinced that Alex acted alone. I don't know where Chad's phone pings were that night. We didn't, that didn't come in. But we do. We don't know. There's that story of him taking JJ upstairs and he comes down and

Chad has scratches. Chad from which surprised me. Apparently he's like six foot three. He's a tall guy. So you can only imagine how that would happen. So I don't know. I just wouldn't be. surprised with anything of who might have been involved in what.

And we'll never know, but we'll never know. That's what we learned in this trial. We'll never know. All those questions we wanted answered, there were a lot of them. Unless someone confesses one day, I don't think that's going to be Lori. But this comment down here below, the raccoon text, though, you guys remember that. That was seeing Chad, you know, it was interesting how the, the, let's see, I guess who, I can't remember who was testifying at the time about it. but I guess maybe like a forensics agent who studies like criminal behaviors through online and digital communication.

And they asked him like, what did you notice about this text? And this is the raccoon text, which was all of a sudden a very long paragraph to Tammy Daybell about, you know, we found a dead raccoon. I took him out and I tried to, you know, to bury him. And then all of a sudden I wanted to light a fight. It's just this long winded text, which was so out of character for Chad Daybell and to be communicating with his wife that way. And so there's a ton out there. still that really only got a very surface, surface touch during the Lori Daybell trial that I think

we're going to go into a lot deeper if this trial for Chad Daybell goes, you know, follows through. I agree. And he waived his right to a speedy trial, which means they have this extra time to go through everything. A lot of evidence, isn't that right? Like wasn't even allowed in court for Lori because they did not have time. Right. They didn't have time to go through everything.

So what will we see that's new, that they did have time, possibly new interviews? You know, a lot of people are asking about Chad's kids still support. I mean, the one thing I always point out is that when they did that interview, I believe it was 2020. That was before the Chandler document dump, the Gilbert document dump, and before the trial. So the Chandler and the Gilbert document dumps gave us a lot of insight into the hanky-panky going on just right there. So, you know, I always like to remind people that, they were kind of going into that interview blind in a way and had no clue and probably just trusted their dad. You know, there have been some actions, you know, that have bothered me, like sticking the tongue out and stuff.

But, I mean, I don't know. I, in a lot of ways, feel bad for his kids because they didn't ask for this. Neither did Summer or Colby or Janice or anybody. And I'm not saying that the way some people have reacted is the best way to react. And but at the end of the day, man, can you imagine your mom? mom's murdered. You find out your dad gets married two weeks later. And then we find out at trial, he had ghosted his kids. That surprised me. Like they were worried they were going to lose him because he wasn't contacted him. Right. Yeah. There was a really profound witness that actually brought

more reality to Chad Daybells, more humanity to Chad Daybell's kids, where we learned that when they went over. I just forgot the neighbor's name that was interviewed that we're discussing the witness. It was the day I wasn't there. And you texted me about. about the podcast that was being played. But I listened to their testimonies after. Prices. I believe it was the prices was the prices, was the neighbors of the prices. It wasn't the prices, but the neighbors of the prices. The Gilberts, right?

The Gilberts, thank you. I knew it was the Gilberts. I just was like, it's a city in Arizona. Yeah, the Gilbert. Yeah. The Gilberts discussed that. She discussed going over and seeing Emma that she really cared about the Daybell family. And Emma was crying saying that her.

dad wanted nothing to do with them after getting married. I feel like she really brought the whole thing home. Alice Gilbert. Alice really, I think, humanized the Dave L. children a bit. And you're right, Gigi. That 48 hours interview was before even the Gilbert drop. And who knows, maybe they're compartmentalizing and refusing to see any of the evidence.

That could be happening too. We all do that. But if they've, if any of them have chosen to look at, what is out there, they will see a lot more than they knew. Right. I spent some time out there in East Idaho before the trial even began and tried to make some headway in contacting and chatting with the Dave L children. And they are completely closing themselves off to the world.

You know, I approached the Daybell property where the children were buried and at least one of Chad's children still lives there to this day. And big red lettered sign on their front door, absolutely no media allowed, you know, and they, you know, try as I might, you know, I tried to go through their lawyers. I actually did find one of, one of Chad's sons, and I spoke to his wife, and she took my card, but she was like, you got to get out of here. Like, we, we're not talking to media. Like, yeah, but you did talk to him. You made contact. I made, I made contact with Chad's son's wife, and there was a cute little kid in the doorway, too. And, you know, that's the hard part of

my job sometimes. I got to just go knock on these people's doors that don't want anything to do with me. I can't do that. I need to introduce myself, tell them that I'm here to get their side of the story and act in good faith for fair, accurate, unbiased journalism, and hopefully you know, you'll trust me to tell your story as well, you know, and that's all we can do is skip both sides of the story. But the long story short is that the Daveo property, no media allowed, big red signs, you know, basically a huge exclamation point. You knock on the door, you're afraid someone's going to pull a gun on you. But then also at the other, on the other side, you know, you get a very sweet wife and their child. And they say, thank you very much for dropping off your card, but we just can't talk to you, you know.

So it's hard. I guess the reason I'm getting back to this is like, yes, they did that interview with 48 hours and who knows what they knew. but even at this time in 2023, it's not like they're rushing out to try to tell their story or correct their record or fix what people may believe of them at this point. You know, and a viewer said

Chad's kids were interviewed by someone on TV after Tammy's autopsy. The kids still say they aren't sure the asphyxiation meant she wasn't murdered. Now, what's interesting is that trial, essentially the medical examiner testified that it was a negative autopsy, meaning they could not find an obvious cause of death.

I thought for sure they would have found like the broken hyoid bone to show she had been strangled or something. So they just named it asphyxiation. And because everything else was benign, it became a homicide. So you can see if that's how it was explained to these kids, if you're not medical, asphyxiation, you just think they're being suffocated smothered. But really on the stand, that was the one charge I thought we might be in trouble with because really the medical examiner said we couldn't find a cause of death.

so we just said really just the absence of breath. Well, and there was bruises. The bruises on the arms that show. And then the pooling in the back. But Chad's kids wouldn't know this at that time. You know, so that's the thing. They would have just heard, well, we couldn't find a cause of death. So we just assume it's asphyxiation.

So you can see in one way how Chad's kids might say, well, that doesn't mean, it just means she stopped breathing. So, you know, I just, yeah, I feel for those kids. I really do. It's just, man. As we've always said on Hidden True Crime, to believe that their father did this is to question the entire reality of their lives. This is a very close family. This was a family that did everything together.

We can maybe even say they might be a mesh. You know, we heard from Heather Daybell on this channel. And she explained how close they were, how tight-knit. They, you know, it was almost like they're wary of people from the outside. So to imagine that their father did this is to realize their father and their entire family and their entire reality is not. what it was. Still, I hope they can get there. I hope and maybe they are.

Maybe they are. I've heard that maybe one at least is not as supportive as they were. I don't know about the others, but I have heard one. And I have not heard, well, I'm not going to say a name, but it does seem like at least one of the kids. Maybe is like, whoa. Okay. Yeah, this makes sense now.

And Alex, I just want to acknowledge what you said, because, again, being a reporter, and we can see what a great guy you are. And I know what a great guy you are. This is the guy again that held an umbrella for me when I had met him five minutes ago to keep me dry and warm during alive. And he's out knocking on doors. There is a lot of misconception about the media

and how terrible that you go and do this. And he explained it. He understands that whatever he reports is going to thousands, if not millions of people, and he wants to get both sides. And it's only fair to give them that. opportunity and his job is difficult and he gets door slammed in his faces and he gets yelled at and he gets people angry but i just want people to understand that too that that Alex is doing

his job and he's doing a good job by reaching out and saying do you want to say something and then he goes away i'm too embarrassed i would be so embarrassed like i so i respect people who do that to give people that chance i do want to clarify i have no doubt chad daybill killed tammy I'm just saying that from the standpoint of the witness on the stand explaining the autopsy The children the children. There's enough evidence that the children could. Right. Just say, well, she just, we can't find nothing.

So she just stopped breathing. So I'm just saying that for me personally, no. I mean, come on now. We all know how Tammy died. Right. And her sister did stay a little bit. Somebody said Tammy didn't have a voice there. But we know that Tammy's mom has been ill.

We don't know what's going on with that. but Samantha did stay until it got too painful, I think, to stay. Yeah. Yeah, Tammy Dave L's mother is ill. I think she's quite ill, actually. And it's heartbreaking. You have to wonder if part of it is, you know, heartbreak. It's really sad.

We learned a lot more. I appreciate learning a lot more about Tammy at the trial. Her family has been understandably private. And I can't imagine their heartache. And through Samantha and through her aunt. that was there that I got to know and a cousin that showed up. I got to know Tammy so much better

and I appreciate that. Yeah, me too. I would love to know a lot more about her actually. Just, you know, sometimes it feels like certain victims get lost in the shuffle. And I kind of feel like in this case, it's, you know, when it's about kids, it's easy to focus on the kids.

But at the same time, I think the true crime community, like now that I'm in the middle, but these four have always really just been one, just unit of sadness because they're all connected. It's like you think about how much Tammy Daybell loved children and to think for a month, over a month before she was murdered, there are two kids in her backyard and they showed those pictures from the vantage point of the kitchen out into the yard.

How many times does she stand there and do dishes? Not knowing that, you know, two children are dead on her property. It haunts me. I know. I know. And we learned to the trial. I want to say this, that Chad could see those graves from his bedroom window and from the kitchen, which is what I have to say, which is what John suggested a couple of years ago. He said, why would they, we bury him there when you've got all of Idaho. And it was a power movie. He goes, I bet. John said this two years ago, I bet he could see them from his kitchen window. Yeah, I remember that episode. Wow. Yeah. He was right. Yeah. You guys, I've kept you longer than planned when Brian said he's going to have to go catch a flight. I said, don't worry, everyone. I'll let all of us go at that time.

And then I thought, never mind, this conversation's so good. I'm going to keep Alex. We loved it. I love it. Thank you. Gigi and Alex, share a little. I know you guys have both shared a bit, but share a bit more where people can find you and follow you. And we'll also share.

And then maybe Alex, you can share where people can follow Brian to since he's not here to do that. your co-worker. Since I'm doing two, you go first, Gigi. So just pretty lies and alibis. It's pretty lies alibi on Twitter. And then just, you know, Google, I have a link tree, which has all my links. So you can just wherever you find me, hit that link tree, all my stuff's there. I would love for you to come over and hang out with me a little bit.

I try to make it fun, you know, as fun as you can, talking about true crime. We always make fun of the ones that can be like Chad. But, you know, never at the expense of the victims. but the big thing for me is facts. Facts matter. I don't do speculation or rumor on my podcast because you've got people watching, family members watching,

you've got family members reading stuff. And so, you know, you have to be, for me, it's just facts matter. And I want it to be to where, if somebody wants to learn everything we know so far, they can come here or to Lauren or, you know, people that are credible. That's, I just want to be credible.

And I appreciate you guys who are in chat, who listen for, for everything. But yeah, I'd love to have you over. We, you know, we cover some heavy stuff, but we get some laughs into it at the same time. Thank you. Thank you. Alex. Yeah, can't, can't speak highly enough of these two ladies, man. You guys are rock stars, absolutely. And it's been a pleasure getting to know you more and to cover these, you know, these stories together. You know, for those who are just meeting me for the first time tonight, I am one of News nation's national correspondence. I primarily cover true crime for the late night show called Banfield

with Ashley Banfield, although you'll also see me on the other hours of News Nation throughout the course of the day, depending on the stories. If you haven't heard a News Nation, we'd also love for you guys to check us out. We launched about three years ago with the goal of being fact-based, unbiased news source on cable television. And so you'll see us right there beside the big boys, Fox News, MSNBC, CNN, the only difference is that we don't have an agenda, right? We're just going to be going for the facts and the facts only and sharing that with our viewers. So look for us if you have cable still. If not, you can find us on Hulu TV, YouTube TV, Roku.

You're also on Facebook and Instagram, so just find News Nation. For myself personally, I'm loving whoever is pinning my Twitter handle up on this chat. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mods. I have amazing moderators. They're on top of the links. I'm seeing it. I'm seeing my handle pop up a few times here, and I'm loving it. Thank you very much to all you guys. But yeah, that's me. Al Caparay 2, 3 on Twitter. Everyone go follow Alex. He deserves our follow. He's amazing. I appreciate it. Al Cap is probably you could just type that. Amazing journalist, an amazing man.

Thank you very much, guys. So yes, follow me. Brian Ninton. You guys all know him. I don't need to give him too much time here. Come on. He's the Ross News Nation. But Brian's our senior correspondent, yes. Brian's our senior national correspondent, just a rock star reporter who just owns stories everywhere he goes. And truly, honestly, a role model in someone I admire in my profession, just because he is just so good at what he does. And so all you followers of Brian, you guys are right. He is good, and you're right to do so. So make sure you find News Nation, find me. And I'm just thankful again that you guys invited me to join you today because this was an unaccustomed.

expected treat. I liked it. It was really cool. Yeah, it's fun. I enjoy grateful. I know you have a fiance and you were likely busy and everything, but so thank you for making time for us, Alex. We're so honored to have you. And we just talk about how amazing Lauren and Dr. John are, by the way, because, you know, just I tell you what, man, some of the best things I've seen on this case have come from hidden true crime. And, and, and, you know, you do it with integrity and love in your heart for the victims and the family. So shout out to you and Dr. John both. What you do is amazing. And the dynamic you guys have is so unique. So I'm a huge fan. I'll watch every episode. Huge fan here, too. And Lauren, I told you back in Idaho, but I'll say it again. There's no one

that I've seen better at making and establishing relationships than you with these families, with these people that have been touched by this case. You are just such a personal, you have such a personal touch with each and every one of them. And it glows off of you. and it's very clear based on the way that people react to you and bring you into your home, bring you into their home, it's very clear that you have something special. So thank you for all you do and for shining a light on so many important cases like this one. That means a lot.

Thank you so much. And group hug. Group hug. How much love. You're a little small, though, Gigi. Get up. We can't like it. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. Well, um, yeah. Yeah. And if Kay and Larry are still here, love you guys. I have some stuff to send. So I have some listeners who have sent me some things to send to them for JJ. And people are just good. You know, that's the thing about the true crime community.

I mean, you get the few that just like to cause drama. But as a whole, the true crime community, like, is just a unit. Yeah. And it's like we all are here for the same reason. And so I love being a part of it because I've met some of the best people I've met my whole life, covering some of the worst things I've ever heard of in my whole life. So it's a unique thing. and I'm proud to be in y'all's company.

Thank you. Yeah. Group hug and chat too. You guys all go hug and chat. Caramel and K lasagna. Listen up. Karen, I will trip you up to get to that lasagna.

Yeah, and the potato salad. Everyone keeps asking for the potato salad recipe. I will get it. I will get the potato salad recipe. I've been slow. We've been asking for it for two years since Summer Shifflett mentioned in a chat that it was good.

I tasted it. she was right. We'll get that. We'll get that. Thank you, everyone. Before we go, I just want to say, Summer Shifflett, if I could give her a big fat hug right now, I would. Yeah, after hearing that call. Oh my gosh. So many emotions you could hear, just picking apart the different emotions in one nine minute call.

My goodness. Yeah. So I just wanted to acknowledge, too. A lot of people just, you know, can knock the defendant's family because they're families of the defendant. But, like, we did not know how painful that was until we heard that call. You can imagine, but like the terror in her voice. And then just like, I'm willing to hear another explanation. And it's like she's begging her, please tell me something different than what I know.

It's just like, man, that was one of the most emotional moments, I think, in that courtroom in six weeks. One of one of the most emotional. So, I just want to go. Thank you. A reminder of all these people, we just don't understand how much pain and agony. These crimes have caused so many that are even choosing not to talk to the media. and one thing about Summer's call I really acknowledged to was she just kept going back to the victims. It was about the victims and not her.

I noticed that and I just want to acknowledge that too because sometimes I noticed that when people, you know, because you know, you see Lori crying. You're like, why are you crying? You're crying because you feel bad for your children. But it's always like a me, me, me, me, you know, during phone call, she's like, me, me, me, me. Summer was like, how could you do this to children? How could you do this?

These children, they didn't deserve this. And I just want to say, like, she was giving the. empathy to she was heartbroken for the people that she should be heartbroken for and it was heartbreaking to hear it was and we'll just say that kay started it off first witness on the stand knocked it out of the park and was classy about it in this in the face of being you know having evil look at you uh so so shout out to everybody i mean but kay like to be that first witness and her to get up there and say you know what lord was a good mom until she wasn't uh i thought took a lot of strength and we know now a lot more about Lori but everybody you know but Kay and Larry who made

that first welfare check call um hard call to make with a terrible result but man what salt of the earth people graceful loving and put themselves out there and give so much love to everybody in that courtroom like you were we were saying earlier uh can't say enough good things about those human beings so um you know beautiful things in the midst of terrible things and so it's a always a good reminder. Yeah. Thank you to the both of you for just coming and debriefing. It's been weeks now, right? And I'm still like, I still have to process it. I still need my advice. We need like a little reunion chat. So thank you again for everyone coming here. Ozzie Tats is, thanks care for showing how family should respond when kids are at risk. I agree. Thank you. Thank you again for being here. And we'll talk soon again,

guys. We'll see you. Okay. See you that. Bye bye. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions,

pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might

sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove.