Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Remembering 7-year-old JJ - An Interview with the Woodcocks

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. Kay and Larry Woodcock --the biological grandparents of one of the victims 7-year-old JJ Vallow--join John and Lauren Matthias at their dinner table for an intimate conversation about love and grief. Next week Lori Vallow Daybell's trial begins in Boise, Idaho, and Hidden True Crime will be there every step of the way. To get caught up--please listen to our original 'Beyond the Veil" season, or watch the Netflix documentary "Sins of our Mother" featuring our host Doctor John Matthias. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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that they aren't victims in the case. Their seven-year-old biological grandson, JJ, was murdered, as well as his sister, Tiley Ryan, in 2019. Lori's attorney, Archibald, claims that the couple who sounded the alarm with the welfare check on JJ should not be able to sit in the courtroom during this non-televised trial that they will have to travel to attend. While we wait for the judges ruling on the motion, the Woodcocks have hired an attorney, and they released a statement to us last night. It reads, quote, we appreciate the outpouring of love and support from all of you after yesterday's hearing.

We were completely blindsided and heartbroken at the argument made saying that we are not JJ's grandparents and should not be considered victims in this case. We continued to be victimized, by Lori every single day living life without JJ, Tiley, and Charles. Then again, by possibly denying us the chance to be the face in the courtroom seeking justice for them. We made a promise over three years ago to Tiley and JJ to see justice prevail. We will fight until we have exhausted all options to keep that promise. We hired Shannon Gray, Gray Law LLC, from Oregon as our attorney to fight on our behalf. We appreciate the prayers as we fight. to keep our promise to JJ and Tiley, Kay and Larry Woodcock, end quote.

And then they leave us with a quote, The dead cannot cry out for justice. It is the duty of the living to do so for them, end quote. Two years ago, this month, we interviewed the Woodcock's in our home, and they shared about their relationship with JJ, bringing them home from the hospital and taking care of their miracle baby. We want to share a small part of that five-hour interview on our podcast, podcast today, all about JJ.

We'll start the interview with a video Kay shared, JJ kissing his grandmas and cousin's cheek over and over and over. To watch this interview or to see this video, you can head to our YouTube channel Hidden True Crime. We thank the Woodcocks for their vulnerability and trust with Hidden True Crime. Together with our hidden gems, today we remember JJ. Do you do it so perfect. JJ, do it?

Give me another one. We have guests. We have guests at our dinner table tonight. We're very grateful and fortunate to have Kay and Larry Woodcock with us, and we've been spending the last few days with them, and we posted the picture that, who took it? Do you take it? Kate took it.

She's got the selfie arms. She was the one that pulled it off. I couldn't fit anyone in. And Kay said, hold on, I got granddaughters of taught me. Let me take this over. And she got the selfie of us last night. Right. So a little known fact about Kay is she's an expert selfie taker.

So if you're around her and you need a selfie, please ask her. I'm sure she'd be more than happy to accommodate. I'm sure people know something about JJ. But could you guys maybe really help us understand JJ a little? better. He was born May 25th, 2012 to my son and his girlfriend. He was born 10 weeks premature at 30 weeks. He was 2 pounds, 9 ounces at birth. He was in the hospital for six weeks. The social worker called and said that she was given our names and she asked if we would take them in and of course I said yes and I did that without any input from Larry I went home I'd be I went home

before him and I called him and said okay you've got to come home we got to talk and so when he got there I had a bottle of his favorite scotch sitting on the table with a glass with ice in it I didn't know if she was kicking me out or said I'm dying of cancer or what but You were prepared for anything. I was prepared. I was open to it, whatever. And she said, just I can remember,

we're going to have a baby. I accepted that without talking to you, but, you know, if you want out, I understand. And I thought about it for about half a second. And I said, you know, why wouldn't I not be part of this?

I said, you know, absolutely, let's do it. And at that time, K and I, we didn't refer to JJ as JJ. His name was Canaan, and it's a beautiful name, and I loved that name. So we went to the hospital and we got Canaan, and it was like, I'm a daddy. and they wheeled her out in the wheelchair and she got into the vehicle with us and she had this baby and it was like, oh my God, deja vu all over again.

What have I forgot? Yeah, and that was my single biggest worry. Yeah. It was big. Did I still remember how to raise or to be responsible for it? child. And I had, there's a lot of things I had to learn about being a daddy again. But the one thing that you never have to learn is that the love, a baby, you have for a baby. And I just, I'd get up in the morning and I'd give him his bottle and I'd give him his bath and stretch his little arms and

massage his back. He loved that. I'd talk. I'd talk. turn him over on my knees, and I'd rub his back. We have a video. We were in Las Vegas, 2018 for Thanksgiving. Charles flew there. He and JJ drove up and met us, and he had him on the bed. Six years old then, and he had him on there. He was rubbing his back.

See, JJ, because I did it up until he left. And so even after he would come back to stay with us, he'd jump up on the bed in the morning time and he'd lay across my lap and pop-paw rubbed my back you know he was about six months old i had to bring him to a pediatric cardiologist he had the hole in the heart because he was premature and so they were watching that to see that it was going to close and the first time i met that doctor i was so i was crying uncontrollably because i was I was there with that little baby, and he had nobody. Nobody. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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So Charles, you know, very gingerly asked, we'd like to adopt him if y'all would let us. When he approached us and I talked to Larry about it, and I said, you know, well, I just, it was just something to think about, you know, and we did. And, I mean, it just took time. I can't imagine the decision to give JJ to Lori and Charles to raise. I wanted so much to see the life of JJ go so far beyond my life,

to see what he was capable of. He had one gear wide open and the next gear was sleeping. And so he was constantly moving. And I was always fascinated by how quick he was, how much energy he had, but more than anything else was how much love he had. That to be cut so short because of a self-servant mother. This is such a tragedy on so many perspectives. She missed such an opportunity to be probably one of the happiest moms that could be because I felt like that JJ's potential in life was really unlimited. I just think beyond a shadow of doubt, and I'll always believe it, that the world lost a great young man,

not just because we loved him, because I think what the future had for him had it not been for a selfish person. if I know this this might be a bit of a hard question but when you talk about that I kind of picture what if JJ was able to pull up a chair with us tonight and what if um what if we were what if JJ was a young adult or 15 or you know 20 years older and jj was sitting right here with us um what what what message do you think JJ would want to share with us? Oh my God. Wow. Well, I have to think about that. I think that to know JJ and to love him, you had to understand and accept his enthusiasm, his optimism. Okay. And maybe he didn't know

what true optimism and in a vision was. I've, I've, I, I, I've been fortunate enough in my life to be around so many young men, women, especially young men, where I think it's so necessary for me that I had to encourage, I had to teach, I had to offer opportunity because I've seen. what a lack of a dad position in a child's life, men I've had working for me. And probably one of the greatest rewards that I get is young men, young women, middle-aged men, middle-aged wives, that their husbands say, Mr. Larry taught me that. Mr. Larry taught me to be where I'm at today. And I feel like that JJ, I hope, would say Papa was a good man and I loved him.

And I'm sorry. Jay J.J. would say, thank you, Papa. I love you. You know, I don't think there's anybody in the world that loved us any more than that little boy. Nobody. I didn't ask that question. I didn't know what to answer you.

And I never thought about it. I would have gave my life just for the opportunity to him live his life. I would never hesitate. Sorry, Lauren. I'm sorry, John. No, no. Everyone's in tears at the table right now. And this is what our dinner tables are.

Oh, my God. There's no question that JJ adored. He did love you too more than... Did you ever see our most favorite video with JJ when we picked him up at school one day? That is my most favorite video. Here, just... I mean, he reminds me so much of our little guy.

That was him right there. that that of I so innocent John and I apologize but a little earlier you said how do I deal with my emotions and I compartmentalize my emotions and once or twice I open one of those boxes and the question you ask was probably the most, was just one of the most intense questions I've ever been asked. Because it makes me, I look at myself now, and I'm thinking, I've dealt with the tragedy of JJ up until his death. And I've never taken the time to say, what if? and that is a powerful powerful that is so powerful because as much as I want him I wanted him to be everything he could be in life and I've seen that that it that he had I think I I've accepted the fact that JJ's life and that the that I've never taken the time to have a really good in-depth conversation with myself

and my feelings about what could have been. And it opened one of those boxes. And it's, I just didn't realize maybe how bad that box needed to be opened. And because, and now I'm thinking that I need to concentrate a lot of my energy on the future of what could have been, not for JJ, for banking, for these children that have this exceptional brilliancy and how we as a society. compartmentalize them. And I think that's such a tragedy. I really do.

I think that's, I'm telling you, I never, I guess I never wanted that box opened. And that's one of the reasons that I just simply

locked that box. Boy, but did it come out? And right now, I'm very angry. I am very, very angry. I'm not angry at anybody here. I'm angry that this happened.

I'm angry that the people involved betrayed us. I think betrayal started back when Laurie was a kid. I think that it probably started back when Chad was a kid. and that we we just we never that as parents, grandparents and times have changed

help is so readily available if you seek it and I think that obviously Barry never never seek sought out that that help Lori obviously never

sought that help. And maybe things would have been different. Maybe all of us need to look inside of ourselves and say, what can I do to help myself? And by helping ourselves, do we help somebody in the future? Do we change a life in the future? Do we save a life in the future? and these are questions that are going through my mind as we speak.

It's like fireworks going off in my brain. It's like atomic particles splitting. And I'm very angry. I am very angry. And I just hope as a society that we learn to deal with our emotions. We learn to deal with how to control emotions. And, I mean, we're all emotional people. I get mad.

I get upset. But I think more than that is the one thing that I've always tried to do is take the time to assess the situation and then to give love where love is needed. Not everybody accepts it. You know, you will get lied to, believe that or not. And, and, but I can tell you, for the last few minutes, a box was unlocked that I didn't want to unlock. I, I apologize if I unlocked, I might, I didn't, you know, I don't know sometimes what, what, what, how people react.

It was just a question that was... It was a wonderful question. Oh, thank you. Absolutely. Wonderful question. I've never been asked that. And the fact that you ask it totally caught me off guard. And I didn't want to break down.

I didn't want to start crying. But there's times in this situation that I simply have to let those emotions. out. And then I start thinking. And right now, I wish you could see the inside of my mind and see the colors that I see. And I'm sure tonight will be another complete waste of night for me. And because of what could be in the future, what would you see if he was sitting here today. Yeah. And obviously, if he was sitting here today,

none of this, what has happened in the last two years, would be a mood issue. It wouldn't even be a thought in our head. Right. But it'd be a young man that I'd be so proud to say, this is my grandson. Look what he's accomplished. Look what he's overcome.

Yeah. And I think part of the question, is, you know, what can he teach us? And I think you answered that. You know, that JJ was so filled with love. It's cozy season and nothing compares to wrapping yourself in a Minky Couture blanket. Luxuriously soft, perfectly warm, thoughtfully made. From movie nights to chilly mornings, Minky Couture turns

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