Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Suzanne Freeman, Friend of Chad Daybell PART 1

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

PART ONE: This interview with Suzanne was originally recorded in 2022. A friend of Chad Daybell for 15 years, Suzanna and Chad had a falling out once he started publishing books by Julie Rowe. Suzanne emailed him and told him that his new beliefs would "Lead to death and destruction". Find out what else Suzanne knows and discovers during this heart-to-heart talk with investigative journalist and Hidden True Crime host Lauren Matthias. LAUREN MATTHIAS spent a decade working as an anchor and reporter. She has reported for News Nation and now produces the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime  Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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we revisit many interviews that have never been shared on our podcast until now. For many of our listeners, they understand the Lori Vallow Chad Daybell case. But for those new to this twisted case about doomsday beliefs leading to a murderous spree across states, to better understand future episodes, I really recommend our entire, Beyond the Veil season. But hey, I also realize we don't all have time to listen to an entire season. So I took care of that for you, summarizing everything in a single episode. If there is one episode to listen to that will get you caught up on the Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow case, it is our May 2nd, 2023 podcast episode titled Beyond the Vale, the prequel, Chad Daybel and

Lori Vallow, the background story you've never heard. You can also find this on our YouTube channel if you want the visuals. I wrote and produced this episode for that very reason so everyone can have a solid grasp on this case in less than an hour. For any of your friends who need the basic so that they two can follow along into the next months and into Chad's trial, send them that May 2nd 2023 episode to get them started. Now, back to this episode we're about to listen to. I have a very special interview with someone today. Someone I have been waiting to interview for a very long time, and I'm so grateful that Suzanne Freeman is with us today. Suzanne wrote a book about her near-death experience in 2004. Chad Daybell was your publisher. Is that right, Suzanne? Yes. Yes. And someone

that you considered once a friend before a falling out years later. And the falling out consisted and I'll share this because it's public and you and this is well known but you wrote Chad Daybell in email is one of your last correspondence with him that told him that his beliefs or the direction he was going was going to lead to death and sorrow is that right yeah yes I had no idea he would do what he's done though I thought it would be different yeah when you wrote that you weren't picturing this. No. You just knew that he was on,

he was going a direction that you did not feel good about. In fact, we should say now the reason you agreed to this interview, a long form interview. And as you mentioned, you've done interviews for the media before, but no one's done a long, you know,

form interview with you that we're going to share with our followers. And the reason you decided and we're willing to do this was for Tammy. day bell. Only for Tammy. I just felt I should. It was this pressing thing. I've got to talk. I've got to talk to Lauren. I've got to talk to Lauren. I just felt I should.

And it's really for Tammy. Really for Tammy. She has to have a voice. And her family cannot speak out. This is my belief and maybe correct me wrong. The daybell kids won't, will cut them off because they believe that their dad's innocent. So that's,

that's possibly true. Yeah, I don't know. So, uh, that speculation is valid. I don't have, uh, I don't know anything else. Well, and I can say, but that, that would make sense. And I, it's a hard. From the very beginning, from the very beginning, Tammy's family, uh, has requested privacy. They've made it very clear that they hope justice is served, but have requested privacy.

and have, have, you know, done that. And I respect that. But you're right. That sometimes means that Tammy might not be discussed as much. I got a nice little message from a family member,

a direct family member of Tammy's. And she thought with the Nate Eaton interview, she was so glad. And she says, you described Tammy to a T. And she said, we miss her every day. Oh, Tammy.

She was a sweetheart. I think she was the heart of the business. She just really was good at and really kind and really genuine. And that made me feel like, all right, I am doing the right thing. I don't love it. I don't seek for, I don't seek to be on camera. It's not natural for me. I avoid photos.

It just isn't natural for me to be on camera. But this has been so devastating. I mean, it has affected my life in a way that most of the time I avoid it. I just like, oh, there's Chad Daybell. And because it really makes me mad. I had conversations with him, many conversations about spirituality. And I just found him very humble. I found there's some personality things that I kind of question like he had a hard time laughing.

I don't know if that's an issue or not. But he had this way he held back in his laugh. And I always wondered, why is it that he can't just laugh? I don't know. Just being in social work, the psychology, so you kind of wonder, I mean, that was before I ever did that. So anyway, I wondered about that. And I thought he was a good man. I really did.

And I felt that him and his wife made a really good team. I remember when I met Tammy the very first time was when my book, first book was almost printed and she had read it. And she was sitting at a desk. And I came in with Chad and he says, Hi, Tammy. This is Suzanne Freeman. And she stopped like this and got up and she's like, oh my gosh, I want to meet you.

I loved your book. And I kind of was taken about because I'm like, is that? I'm just my story. I wasn't that big a deal. But I was excited, how excited she was about that. I thought that was really actually quite cute when you really. She was just so genuine. And I've mainly dealt with Chad, but she was very genuine.

I'm heart sick over what happened. Let me give a little bit of your background where you are now because you're right. Suzanne's book was written in 2004. We hear a lot about you. In fact, take a listen to this interview of Chad talking about Suzanne's book. I went down to San Peak County where Suzanne lived

and interviewed her. Doctrinally, I wanted to make sure she was on track. And I found out she grew up dyslexic. She had never really read any books. She's just a wonderful stay-at-home mother with eight children. But when she was there on the other side of the veil, the Savior told her that she needed to someday write her story. So this was seven years later.

And after I had cross-examined her enough, I felt confident about it. And that's when we put together first her book called Led by the Hand of Christ, which is more focused on her experiences in the same. spirit world. It follows along really closely with like LDS church doctrine and that kind of? Absolutely. She's a very faithful LDS woman and like I say I felt good about it because it stayed right on course with the LDS doctrine even though Suzanne wasn't much of a scholar herself and so that verified to me that it was accurate and had actually happened. A lot of people noticed when we shared this interview Suzanne he talks a lot about you that he was um

to say what one listener said a bit condescending. Another listener said sexist almost. I mean, you just called yourself a simple, Susie, but here you are. You're going towards, you've raised 10 children. You're single now, is that right? Yeah. Divorced and going for a career in social work at this time.

Hospice social work. Hospice social work. That's my goal. Thank you. for doing that for so many that are in need of that. And so I just want to point that out to that, as Chad called you, just a mom and uneducated, this is not the Suzanne Freeman that I have met and been talking to. I have been talking to a very interesting woman who is educated, who is concerned about learning and has wisdom.

So with that being said, I would not call you the things Chad called you back in that 2011 interview. I would call you educated, smart, wise. And I'm looking forward to this interview with you. Thank you. So you met him. That was interesting. You felt he was humbled.

You saw a concern that he never laughed. He could never just laugh or he held back. It was strange, got to admit. Story and I felt good about it. Yeah, that is strange. You know, it's something that my husband, a psychologist and I have also noticed. Really? Okay. Yeah, well, not the laugh in particular, but the sense of humor.

And he would write about his sense of humor. He would say that he would write jokes into his books. One Foot in the Grave by Chad Daybell. So it's a lot of little stories like that of incidents you had there at the cemetery. Mainly aimed at their humorous stories. And they're not offensive. And we do have a speech given at a preparing a people conference where Chad makes the audience laugh. I ended up with 20,000 steps on my fit from just the snow blowing.

So it helps thin me down a little. For example, here. I don't really find his jokes very funny, even though I do understand. them, his sense of humor was a little bit difficult, I think, to understand. I put myself through a lot of trouble. I'd go out in the field and the rain, you know, you have to sacrifice or something. I'd go down in the mud and pray and nothing had happened. Throw out the pigeon pan and pray. I don't think he was as humorous as he made himself out to be. talk more about a sense of humor than show it when you talk right yeah that makes sense i never knew him

to have a sense of humor he was always very very serious okay when i was 17 there's a little teeth were a little straighter by now um i'll just briefly tell about my near-death experiences i've told him enough that i don't need a whole lot of details that thank you for validating that yeah i never knew him to have a sense of humor And I sat with him on book signings. And, I mean, I probably, professionally probably know him better than most anyone. Because he was one of the first books I, I was one of the first books he published. So. Right.

And tell me about that. So how did you two meet? It was through an author. I had met her at a, at a, um, event or the church and she was selling her books and I just felt that I should tell her that I had a experience. I had just been writing it down. And I told her a little bit of it. And she called me after a week or so after. She says, I just can't get you out of my head. I think we can get this book published. I'm like, yeah, yeah, whatever. I didn't, you know, I didn't.

believe it so much because what do you how do you get a book published you know and so um she contacted a few and chad replied back and um then he drove clear to ephraim where she was living at the time and i was living in a town spring city next to that town and he met up with us and we discussed it and he felt good about it as he said and so we started she was the ghost author i Can I ask her name? Yeah, Shirley Bowman. Okay. So she was the author.

So Chad wasn't even the author. You had a ghostwriter who was Shirley. Yep. Okay. Yeah, it's a much better book. It's a good book. She did a very good job writing it. I can say that because I didn't write it, really.

It was just my story. But she made it a very beautiful story. She really was able to write the characters. And some of it was kind of made up. She had to write dialogue. in and stuff, which really isn't my family just like, oh my gosh, mom, that's not how we talk. But how do you, how do you tell an author, well, sorry, that's not how we talk around for rewrite it. I just didn't, just didn't think that was, it was beautiful the way she did it.

So as long as it was accurate, you were okay with some. Yeah, the dialogue didn't matter as long as my experience was accurate. In other words, you're glad Chad didn't write your book. Oh, I could barely get through his first book of the last days. I just, bad writing. I'm sorry. It's been 18 years. I've known him 18 years. My number nine child was three months old when I met him. And he just turned 18. So it's, it's been so upsetting because I've had personal conversations with him. And now I look back there with some red flags, but I didn't think they were that big or, red flags so you know i mean we had hindsight is hindsight is 2020 oh well i had and i did not believe that when he made the national news that kids are missing and he's married some woman two weeks after tam tammy died i thought oh my gosh this is just not true it can't be true because even then

after you're even then after you're falling out and everything you still thought no way did the Cadde-Dade. No, I didn't, I didn't believe it. He, because we had conversations about Tanin' him. Like, I mean, we, we have spiritual books. My book's Near Death Books, three of them, he published. So we had conversations, probably monthly because I was getting, maybe, you know, there'd be six months span.

I didn't talk to him, but Julie Roe mentioned while writing her book that she would talk to him every day. Is that similar? I didn't talk to him every day. I had a lot of kids. It wasn't that, you know, just publish my book, be done. And plus, I guess they collaborated on their books, so, which I can see why Julie's book, this is the way it is. Sorry.

We'll get into that, yeah. Yeah. So we had conversations how Chad really felt him and Tammy were soulmates. And I know it was twice, at least. I think it was a three times that he just reiterated a couple times that, yeah, I really felt very strongly that I knew Tammy in the preexistence. We talked about this. And so I just, I had, there's no way that he would have gone off and married two weeks after his wife died that they were soulmates. Nah, I don't believe it.

I just didn't believe it because we had those conversations. To validate what you said, his autobiography, which was, was it 2018 that his autobiography was published and he dedicates it to Tammy his one and only. I'll believe it. That's, that's, I felt there is one thing that was odd about him. He, it's almost like he was obsessed religion, religiously or something because his publishing company was only, he was only going to publish. LDS books. And I thought, if you're going to be a publisher, why don't you spread out and not just do LDS books?

I found that a little odd to me. I did. I didn't. I remember thinking, why? And he ended up losing his company because Deserat Book decided they weren't going to keep any non-deserate books in LDAE in the Deserate Book and Seco. So he actually lost his book.

business because of it. When was that? 2010 maybe? I can't. That would make sense. That was right around the time that he did that interview with you. It was about a year later and he did mention having to go back to work as a cemetery section. Okay. That would make sense. Okay. But when the economy went in the tank in 2008, we had to drastically reduce our company to a part-time operation. Oh, I see. And so spring kick book's still there. You published your volume. five of Spring Creek books. And we still publish. But you're not doing your own, your distribution now. Right. We've changed that to a distributor.

Okay. Which has worked out very well for us. But so suddenly I needed a job to pay the benefits for the family and everything. Yeah, he didn't even, he didn't even admit to me that he had to file bankruptcy. I got a letter from an attorney saying. And Chad kept saying, yeah, so he didn't have the guts to even say, hey, sorry, we've had a hard time with our business. We are going bankrupt.

So I called him afterwards. Because you got a letter. Yeah, I got a letter from the attorney. And so I called him and he told me, yeah, but I'm going to keep publishing your books. I thought, okay, fine, because I wasn't going to, I don't know. For some reason it wasn't. I mean, there's my story. People read it.

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Discover your true age today. So I put myself out there and it was easier in a book than go speaking. And it was hard for me to leave all my kids. I mean, the second book was written just before my 10th child was born. So, you know, I was busy. He publishes your books. You have this writer.

You then learn about a bankruptcy that his, he lost his publishing company due to Desiret book, which is owned by Bonneville Communication. Bonneville Communication is owned by the church. Thus, the LDS bookstore was saying, hey, your books are a little too much for us. You know, we can't control what's in them. We're going to just kind of stick to certain publishers. That might be why. I don't know. You don't know. Okay. My books were not in Desert Book. They were in Siegel book. They did go in a Google book. Okay.

Okay. And so he lost the publishing company, filed for bankruptcy, but then said he would still publish your books. Then what happened? You know, some time went by. And we ended moving from Sanpiate County to Provo. So it was a little easier to get books. And I really didn't have any issue with him until he started publishing Julie's books. And it.

Well, you're really hard to be part of publishing her books. 2011, I think, 2012. Okay. Well, the issue, so backstory a little bit. I had gotten my hands on a manuscript of Roger K. Young's, I don't know, dreams and visions of the last days or something. So Roger K. Young actually is someone important, and we haven't really described. him on our on hidden true crime. Could you kind of share who Roger K. Young is a little bit in his book?

He is a founder of a vow. He sold a vow to Christopher Parrott, who we know more about because Christopher Parrott is now the owner of a vow and was friends with Chad Dayball. But a vow was started by a man named Roger Kay Young, who wrote a book. Is that right? Right. He wrote a couple books. About the time my second book was coming out.

in 2006, it seems like, through the window of life. I got a manuscript from, I don't know who, but someone had me this manuscript about dreams and visions of the last days. And I think that's the title, but I can't remember. But one of in it talked about, and he named it the call out. And I read through this and I'm like, that just can't happen. It can't happen that way.

It just can't because so. So to explain to those who aren't familiar with the callout, this is really important. A vow very much is focused on this website, the Chad Deba was on, owned by Christopher Parrott, was very much about dreams and visions and this thing called the call-out.

Can you explain what the call out is? Really short version is times are going to start getting hard. There could be a war or there could be the government getting wicked, you know, telling us what to do, controlling us more. And he talks about needing your food storage and the profit is going to go down the chain command, like go to the state presidents and the state presidents will talk to the bishops. And it's going to say that, okay, those of you who have a temple recommend, I'm not sure that is in Roger Young's part, but it's been kind of...

The callouts evolved. What the callout has evolved. But you believe it started with Roger Kay Young's book. Yeah. Oh, I know it did. And then what they're going to say is there's trucks going to come and pick up all your food storage. And you're going to go to the girls camps. Girls camp meaning young women in the L.D.S. Church are ages 12 to 18.

They go on summer camps. Yes. They go to summer camp and some of these summer camps are perhaps owned by the church or at least familiar to the church. And they're saying that there's going to be this call out for those that have prepared and they're supposed to go to these camps. Yep. But not everyone in the LDS, not all of the LDS members know this. It's just these special people that know about it on a vow. And they especially think they're special.

That's for sure. They think they're special. And they spend thousands of dollars. They buy the white tents, especially when Julie came out and said that. They call them white tents, but they're canvas heavy duty tents that you can live in through the winter and stuff. but you buy it you can buy camp stoves for them to keep them warm that sort of thing how much of those tents cost a couple thousand and not to mention you add the wood stove and

of course you know they're saying you can buy beds for them oh my gosh they could fill one semi at least with all the stuff that they prep do you think by the way that Julie was maybe ever getting a kickback on some of these supplies, like affiliate links saying, hey, buy this tent and everyone's doing her? Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure that she figured out a way to get a kickback. Maybe not, but Julie is quite business savvy. I must admit that. She knows how to get a following. So when I read this dreams and visions and, you know, I try to be respectful, but I specifically told Chad about this. I handed him the manuscript.

He copied it. This is the Roger K. Young book. The Roger, yes. He copied it. And I said, there's a callout dream in that. And that is not going to happen. And he laughed with his little quirky little holdback laugh.

There is something wrong with that. Listening to what Dr. John has said, he has an issue with laughing. I've noticed. I don't know why. And we laughed about that. Yeah, okay. And I said, don't listen to any of that stuff.

That's not true. That can't happen. And I did explain to him that the prophet can't, it just won't happen that way. That the profit won't do this call out thing. It's kind of like, don't believe in this call out is what you were saying in this Roger Hay-Young book. I told him not to believe it. What year was this?

It had to be 2006 around there. Okay. Thank you. 2007. It's kind of like, for the listeners out there, it's kind of like, for the listeners out there, It's kind of like if the president of the United States had something he wanted done, he doesn't go talk to a private. He talks to the generals and they go down.

So this dream doesn't make sense to me that some person would get a dream of what the prophet's going to do. Do you see what I mean? Roger Kay Young is having a dream about what the prophet of the LDS Church, the leader of the LDS Church is going to do when he needs. members to listen to listen yeah it's interesting i have not heard of the call out myself until this case just so everyone knows that's good it wasn't that it's it's it's the thing people believe in buying food storage and and even chad told me himself but i had a separate conversations with julie about julie um that he says no

Julie isn't into prepping like that. Why would she? That's just so funny. I don't even do that either. I thought, but that's what her book's about. If she's not into prepping, I mean, why is she, why is she, you know, saying how you have to have a, you know, it just did not make sense to me, none of it. And so Chad kept telling me, oh, you need to meet, you know, why don't you just read her book? Why don't you meet her? And I just, I had a dream.

I had a friend of mine and say, we can meet her, see what you think. something doesn't feel right. And I was going to, she had come to Utah, one of her first times to speak. In Springville, she had set it up. And I was getting nervous because I thought, first off, if someone in that really popular, I could take away her, you know, her lull might and she might be uncomfortable with that. I don't like going into a place and, you know, stealing someone's limelight. I mean, that's not what I plan on doing.

But I just, there's something I didn't. I was afraid what I might see. I can be intuitive, you know. And so that night I had a dream that I lived in this really old house, but the basement opened up kind of like a garage. kind of thing and she was going to come to speak and they set up these old chairs and it was kind of like dank and kind of dirty down there anyway she came and she was short and I thought I thought she was taller after the dream but her face was distorted and after everyone left they left there like they

brought food and they just left it on the floor and left their junk and and and I thought okay I don't think I'm going to go to her. I don't think that that was just, it could have been nothing. But for me, I was uncomfortable with it anyway. And I had read a chapter of her book. I just couldn't read it anymore. She talked about Adam and Eve and how like she saw how cane killed Abel was because Adam and Eve's daughter's skirt started getting shorter and stuff like that in her book,

the very first of it. And I thought, this is ridiculous. This is not what happened. And Chad kept begging me to read it. Why don't you just read it? And he even told me, and this is what he told me, you don't have to believe me or not. He says, I don't know why people like her books so much because it's really not that good. It's not as good as yours.

And I thought, well, you published it and you seem to really like it. So I think you're just trying to butter me up a little. I mean, that's really interesting, though. If he also didn't think it was even that great. yet he continued to publish him because I do, Julie Roe was his most popular. Right. And he did make a lot of money off of Julie Rose book.

Well, he must have made a lot of money off of me because he would not give me my rights back. Just wouldn't. Wow. To this day, you still don't have the rights to your book. No, I don't. But they're out there for free. And, you know, he's got other legal problems that he's not going to come after me to sue me.

So, and I could sue God stage. Right. I've gone to an attorney about it and he told me and I trusted him. I trusted him and signed. This was on my third book and the agreement we had together was only one-sided. The attorney read through it. He says, I have never seen a contract between an author and the publishing company, this one-sided.

There's nothing in there for you. I thought he was an honest man. but you can't go to be a murderer or not live a certain life to get there. You have to not follow the teachings that's in the scriptures. Teachings of Jesus Christ. You have to follow his teachings because, especially if he, you know, has done what he's done in the church,

went through the temple, all that stuff. you have to follow the commandments or you can be let astray. He had to know what he was doing was wrong. Everybody knows what's right and wrong. So that humble man you knew, do you look back and see humility still or do you see manipulative or what do you see now? I see manipulative. I see controlling.

I see he wanted the limelight. He didn't want to be the publisher. Of course he wrote books. He didn't want to be the publisher. But that's all he could do because no one would publish his books. but himself. And Tammy, Tammy is the one that did the designing of my books.

And everyone that looked at my books said, wow, that's really well, a good design cover. That's really good cover. All three of my books. And they liked how they did the, my daughter's graphic designer. And she's like, wow, I like the letters, the kind of fonts that she used.

And they had to buy a certain font that really looked good on my Spirit of Liberty book. And she's like, wow, this is really well done. This is a well done cover. And I'm pretty sure she did editing. I'm pretty sure. I don't know really what Chad's role was, whether then he just bought the books.

And really honestly, maybe he read the books and decided, yeah, we should publish this one. But. So in other words, Tammy was doing all of the work. Tammy, Tammy was the heart and soul of the business. He could, Tad never could have done it. And I pretty much knew that most of the time. I felt that they were a pretty good team.

But I knew Tammy was behind the scenes doing the making her the business. It wouldn't have been as good without her for sure. In other words, and she was already working a full-time job as a librarian, the school district. And she was raising five children. And she was running the publishing company. And we have heard this for many people, right? she was essentially doing everything.

She was the heart and soul of the business, for sure. Chad would never have gotten as far as he did without her, for sure, without question. Let's go back to the call out really quickly, if that's okay, and Roger Kay Young, because this is helping me as well as a few others kind of understand how this evolved. There's how Chad went from being your publisher to Julie Rose to writing his own books. And there's also how did Chad get his. platform and that has to do with a vow and that's where he met julie were you a member of a vow too short short time i was on there and it's just pettiness one person posted i can't wait for the call

out and i'm roll my eyes i'm like you serious you really think the call it's going to be that great living in a tent hardly having any running water people fighting over their food storage i just i just didn't that is in So someone said they couldn't wait almost as if they were prepared and felt special, maybe. I think they, I think that's what it was. I think they felt they were more special because they were more prepared that they, their eyes were open. They're open to spirituality and they're open to being prepared. And so when the call out happens, they're going to listen to the profit.

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And if I said anything about it, then made me look like I was like this Jack Armand that didn't believe in the prophet anymore. And, you know, that's how extreme it was. If you weren't believing in this extreme belief, then you must have been some inactive rebel Mormon. Oh, yes.

You have to believe that the prophet's going to do this. Don't you believe that the prophet has visions and dreams? And don't you believe that prophets are going to take care of us? I'm like, ah, it's not like that. not like that. So Roger K. Young, you said, again, for everyone to understand, a vow is a site. And for those that are interested in learning more about a vow, Anna is a great interview to go to.

Anna is someone I interviewed who was a member of a vow for 10 years and talks a lot about a vow. Roger K. Young started a vow. He wrote this book, Dreams and Visions. I think dreams and visions of the last days. I think that was in the last days where he discussed the callout and then. the idea of the call out evolved on the groups, you believe that it was Roger K. Young

that started this belief. Can you talk about that a little bit more? He, you know, started the website, but not only the website, he would have like preparedness expos. And they were big. And people with hunvies and all the preparedness thing,

water filtration stuff, would come to those. Was this before preparing a, people? Yes, it was way yeah, way before. By the way, I was never invited to preparing a people. Oh. I was an outcast. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm glad to be an outcast in that because I'm not writing and I'm not ashamed of what happened. There are some people that are directly, should be accountable for Chad's ideas because they were they were complicit to them who them Nancy James Nancy and Mike James they're the ones that did preparing a people

Chad had a platform he didn't have a platform before preparing a people conference announcement with Chad Dave L one of our main speakers we they were close with chat I don't care what they say I have a friend that moved to Idaho and she would tell me that she knew Nancy quite well and Nancy just out and out told her one day well Suzanne's just jealous and she's like oh that's further from the truth Nancy that is further from truth and I thought well if Nancy says I'm jealous she got that from Chad because of my email which I honestly thought I deleted I didn't think I it was it was pretty explicit telling him I just want to

I want him to know. I want my rights back. I don't want any part of what you're doing. But I did not know. I did not know he believed in, I'm sorry, he believed in reincarnation. People can change the name, but it's reincarnation. And I don't want to. Multiple probation's past that reincarnation. Same same you're saying. It's the same thing. Chad. He's one of my favorite people. In fact, he used to be in Springville and then we followed him to Rexburg. Yeah. Has losing weight and getting healthier been on your mind lately? Have you heard about groundbreaking GLP-1 treatments like OZemPEC and WeGO? With Effecti, getting access to these powerful medications has never been easier or more affordable.

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weight loss treatment, no hassles, no memberships, and no hidden fees. Get started today. There is this gentleman that has since passed away. His name is Doug Mendenhall. And he had a daughter that had a, they didn't know she was diabetic. She went into a diabetic coma at 11. About the same time I had my NDE in 1999. And she came back gifted, seeing Christ and all this stuff. So he started these same thing. preparing people. I always see it. Someone else is going to come up and do the same thing. This is, so basically what I said Chadd doing, I saw what Doug did. And Doug was different. He was a polygamist. He used to drive around, and before I knew this, he used to drive around with this other

woman alone in their van. And I always thought that was highly inappropriate. So my guess was before I knew about Lori, I figured Chad would probably start becoming a phlegamous. That was pretty much the next thing that I would see. Doug Mendenhall's group started getting into the, they used to call it multiple mortalities. And the weird thing is Doug used to kind of criticize people who would say it. And Chad at first did too. He would say, why would people say they're coming back as someone popular? You know their name.

Their names in the scriptures or they're, Thomas Jefferson or someone. So I actually interviewed a man named Dustin Thane, who had the experience of Chad coming over and being dubbed someone important or a couple people in past lives. Take a listen. Chad asked if he could speak with me. I mean, we're from the same town. He lives up the road a little bit.

An acquaintance. I did not know him well. So he came over with a friend. They asked to speak with me away from my wife, which was a little odd. they took me to a place in my house and he began to explain what he had been into and a pendulum and he was asking these questions and yeah he told me that i was andrew the apostle and i think it was heber kimball he listed a bunch of others i thought about i thought well there's got to be some truth to it because so many people believe in so many people involved i actually asked

deston about this too here is more of our interview i clearly you weren't very involved but can you give any idea. Were there Chad followers and or are there sort of followers of this belief system still in Rexburg? You know, I believe yes. We try not to get too involved in that. But I believe yes, as far as backing that up. When you say that a lot of people believed in multiple probation, past lives, and so you started to question, maybe it's true. How many people do you say believe in these beliefs that aren't they and let me confirm are these mainstream LDF beliefs. I mean it caused a lot of stir with a lot of people in a community you know I don't know.

No yeah thank you for sharing that and it's one thing to not want to be involved but it's another to share the truth too so that we can stop you know things or expose things so thank you I'm sure it's not comfortable to talk about something you don't believe in and don't want to be a part of but I also appreciate you not you know pretending it doesn't exist either. I think it's there, unfortunately. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think people take a little truth and it gets so mingled with garbage and they forget

what they're even following in the first place. I don't know. It's just, it's very, very sad. People get together. They really want to, I guess, I guess what Chad would call it is get the meat or what I've heard is they want to know the meat of the gospel, not just the, you know, What does the prophet say? Or they want to, not just what the scriptures say, delve deep into the scriptures.

They don't want the appetizers they want. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. The medium rare steak. Eric Smith explains this in his interview. And I just realized there's more to be had than what's coming across church pulpits. And to me, like I had to go through this little journey of overcoming some fear of doing so because there's a bit of an expectation in LDS culture to stay in the box, you know, and really only look for truth in things that have the church's logo on it.

And that was fine. I love the church and I love the things it teaches. I just know there's more. And I felt I started to feel safe going outside of the box. Most of the people that do that, they start believing in reincarnation. So where is this stemming from then if you're saying as they get deep into, these groups, they start to believe in past lives and multiple probations as well as the call out, where is it coming from then? What I mean is if this group is growing, if it's still out there,

how is it being spread? Who is teaching this? Past lives are a real thing. The LDS church does not teach that and that's one of the reasons they excommunicated me. But I have memory of my past lives. And when I looked through the window of heaven in my near-death experience, I went through portals and I talked talk about it in my books, where I actually went in real time to some of these locations and some of these points in history. Now, that's a huge claim, but I have memory of it, and there's no one that can convince me otherwise. I did not know what Chad Davis was up to. I knew he was making lists that he believed in multiple probation. So do I. Join the flock. Get out of the ship, Zion, and join with those who want truth and who are willing to do what it takes.

to find it. And I'm not talking about what you can just find on YouTube or what the Mormon Church decides to put out there as a true history. You want to know some more true history about the LBS Church? Join me on my Zoom. It's free. You have to register at wasatchwakeup.com. W-A-S-A-T-C-H wake-up.com. It's a free Zoom. Right now we have 350-something people signed up. Friday, July 9th at 6 p.m. I have it scheduled from 6 to 7. all go as long as I feel. I know who I am. I know my mission.

I will do whatever is required. I will do my part to help cleanse this planet. She and Chad came to Rexburg at a speaking event. There were probably 2,000 people there at the Rexburg Tabernacle. And I was there. That was the first time I had seen her. I was very interested in that. And I thought it was a great meeting, well attended.

And I became very curious about Chad and Julie and who these people were. Eric, he talks about it and he says, it's in the scriptures. Well, I'd like to see a scripture. You give me a scripture. Yeah. You give me a scripture. Show it to me. There are scriptural based beliefs.

Even multiple purbations is one of these fringe, but scriptural based belief systems. The very fact that these are not discussed kind of suggests, their taboo topics suggests that there's some censorship. there's something that they don't want us to understand. And look, truth seekers are going to find it. There's no stopping a truth seeker. So to clarify for those that aren't LDS, and I think I explained this a bit in Eric Smith's interview, but a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints theology

is that humans and that people lived before we were born in the pre-existence, that we chose God's path and thus made the choice to be born. born to experience this life, which is a probationary state at time to prepare to meet God. That is a scripture from Alma in the Book of Mormon. That this life is a probationary state, meaning we are here as people to prepare to meet God and then we return to God and are saved. Is that a fair way to say it? Did I do that okay?

Okay. So thus, this idea of multiple. Probations is not something that is in LDS doctrine, but there are these little moments of, oh, if a child is aborted or a fetus is aborted, maybe they could still have a chance to be born. But it sounds like, and as you point out, Eric Smith and others say that multiple probation is in scripture. Others say that maybe Josie Smith disgusted and perhaps King Follett's sermon or other places, but it might have been those off-the-cuff comments, your words, and now people are taking this to an extreme. Do you agree with that?

I do agree. They'll get together in their homes and around the fireplace and try to understand these things. You're not going to stop that. Why is it that when Chad and Lori talk about who they were past lives with, why is it people they knew that's in the scriptures or that's someone famous? Right. Why can't it be some obscure woman in Holland giving birth and died? Right. You know what I mean?

Yeah, a peasant, a servant, a slave. But it's not. It's Jesus Christ's best friend and the best friend. gorgeous wife, the goddess. Is that what they believe? According to the love story. He knew they had been married before and they had been close friends with the Savior when he lived in Jerusalem.

So they were just besties with. Just hanging out with Jesus. Just Jesus on dusty path. Just chilling with Jesus. Yeah. James had actually served as an important position in the Lord's Church. And Elena had been his beloved spouse and best friend. So James was this important man and then Elena was his beloved spouse. They were very close to the Savior, Jesus, and yes.

Can you imagine the type of person you must think you are to think that you're best friends with Jesus? Because in reality, Jesus had his, you know, really close friends. But if you walked out to him, he would be your best friend at that moment. You know what I mean? I just, oh my gosh, the, he loved everyone, according to the, he loved everyone and treated everyone the same. He really did. And he does.

So this call out, sorry, going back to this, you're helping us really put some puzzle pieces together. So, well, I know this isn't your complete story with Chad. You're helping us put some puzzle pieces together about this belief system and I, and how it might have evolved. And I really appreciate that, Suzanne. So thank you. I don't love the subject.

The callout has always been a source of contention for me. And is it because that's the moment you realize this isn't okay? Yes. I knew it just wasn't right in my gut. And I tried telling people. And that's why when I heard Chad was publishing a book of a lady that actually had the vision of the callout in their NDE, which actually made it more. real.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I made it more real. I made it more probably of a best seller. Yeah, well, in the NDE. They've got to know. It's got to happen. So when I heard that,

I knew it was a lie. It took me a bit to really remember because I knew Julia was a fraud from right on right the beginning, but I thought, how did I just know that? I didn't just hear her name and think, oh, she's a fraud.

I mean, I don't know. Maybe you could do that. but it was they they used her name and they say she had the vision of the callout and I knew that was a lie. I knew it. So Julie Rose books confirmed what Roger Kay Young started. Pretty much. And she was the callout. And someone, I wish someone could just check her book of the callout vision because Chad put it on the internet to read right off. That was what he did first with her first book. That's where I read it. I think. Maybe I'm wrong. But that's what it. it seemed like he did. He put it out there as a press release kind of thing. And I had a friend read it.

And she's like, I've read this before. It seems like. And then I thought about, wait a minute, Roger Young had a vision of that. And so I put the two and two together. I haven't had them together. Like someone, you read one and you read the other. And maybe she wrote it. Maybe she really believed she saw that. And that's what she wrote. That is what it is. But. I must be really creative to write a book in three weeks. That's so fast. Wow. And now they'll claim some people say,

oh, she just compiled other people's dreams and visions from online and yada yada. That's all a lie. That's all a lie. I don't want to discredit a dream. I'll be honest. I don't want to discredit anyone's dream because I believe Roger Young had that dream.

I can't say he didn't have that dream. Sure. And I've had other people tell me they've had similar dreams. it really isn't literal. Maybe it's figuratively. Sometimes we can have dreams, but it's not meant literally. I don't believe my books are ever literally,

but... I'm grateful for that perspective, Suzanne, that dreams can be symbolic or even a metaphor. Although I'm not sure that's what Chad and Julie had in mind when they share their dreams and visions. Take a listen.

Your jealousy is awesome. the charts because I actually do see the future because I have seen the past because I can see what's going on in multiple dimensions and planets. So mock away. Julie Roe came up to Rexberg. Her books were really popular. So what happened was Garth, he said, I learned so much this weekend. He said Julie came and stayed with us and I learned that my dad, all his books that he wrote this whole time growing up, I thought they were all just stories, just fiction. And he said, this weekend, I learned that they were all true, that everything in those books

were from dreams and visions that he has had, and I never knew that. At the time when I wrote it, Desart book had rejected him and just kind of had some controversy about him. And so I felt inspired that it should be written fictually. I didn't just not tell anybody about it. and just put it out there. And it's so really well. So the call out was a place of contention

and perhaps where things maybe started falling apart for you and Chad. He was publishing Julie Rose books. You disagreed with Julie and her visions. And is that the moment you started to distance yourself from Chad? Chad distanced himself from me, actually, I think. Okay.

He got tired of begging me to read her books. and he would tell me how, I don't know if I said this, but he would tell me how humble she is. He's really a humble woman. You would really like her. She's really humble. Probably two years ago that Chad came to me.

Now, Chad has some of his own spiritual gifts. He is also visionary. I don't say this in a bragging way, but my gifts are more extensive than his. But I have seen some of her pictures. How do I put this? I was raised by a mentally ill mother. Okay.

I have radar knowing who's menalil. And I've listened to some of her radio things and she'd stop in mid-sentence and she'd say, oh, there's angels in here. The vell is very thin for me. Others have just tried to say that I have mental illness. I am telling you right now that I traveled to different worlds. and dimensions through light portals when I was on the other side of the veil. And I can see them on this side of the veil. This is real. Multiple probation is not going away. This is a true doctrine,

a truth in the universe that will not go away. It's not leaving this planet. In fact, more and more people are going to wake up to it, Eric. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond

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Yes. And people can call me crazy all day long. I don't give. I don't care. You have radar for those you feel that might be suffering from mental illness. Yes. And I feel bad for her. It's got to be a tough thing, really, to have to take meds and they don't quite work well.

And anyway. Yeah. I have empathy, but you see what it is. I do. And Chad would tell me, I mean, not like I never talked to him. He would say one of her first speaking engagements was in Mesa. And he calls me and we talk and he says, did you know the state president called Julie and told her she can't talk in a church?

And he's like, I don't understand why. And then later I heard that they were renting the church, but I've never been able to speak in a chapel. That is not what chapels are for. You can be speaking in a relief society room in a gym. But she actually spoke in the chapels. And that was not what the church wanted. And she claimed she's never called in.

Chad told me that she was called in to the offices because of that. And explain that a little bit. This is a church building, not a temple, where those that are LDS worship on Sundays. and the chapel, it's more sacred than the other rooms. Can you explain that a little bit? Yeah, that's where we do our Sunday service where we have sacrament. We have talks about, you know, very sacred, you know, I mean, about the scriptures and we sing songs.

And so they don't like using that room for, you know, to run in there. It's just a quiet place that is supposed to stay sacred. Okay. And there's a gym and a cultural hall and other rooms throughout the church where people can gather and use as a community building, but not in the chapel. Right.

And so thus you're saying, though, that when Julie Roe would speak, for things that were not Sunday services, that she would speak in the chapel. Yes. And now that was a, that was a contention, but she didn't stop. She kept being told that she can't do that. And she kept speaking in chapels.

How many people were believing in, and I know you yourself weren't believing in Julie Rose, so you were a bit separated, but I guess I'm trying to understand how big is this group that believes part of these things or all of these things? And how would you define the group to? Is it a vow?

Is it a vow? Is it preparing a people? Is it Julie Roe? Is it Chad Daybell followers? What is this? You know, I don't know how big the group is, but a lot of them are on a bow. A lot of them are Chad DeBelle. If they're Chad DeBelle followers,

they're Julie Roe followers, I think. She believes that multiple mortalities are true. And I think she did a Zoom. She did a Zoom meeting on zombies last week. Oh. How. how would you say inappropriate

since people died why would be children being dubbed zombies including and Tammy too was a zombie named Viola before she was murdered I didn't believe it I honestly thought a lot of it was what the media was making up

so I had to ask me to eat and I said is the zombie thing really real and he says oh it totally is real chat had emails about that Like, where was I? He wrote about zombies on a vow. He wrote about zombies on a vow. Oh, he did?

Couldn't he have been more creative and found a different name than a zombie? I mean, I'm sorry. That just, I mean, undead or something, a zombie? I'll be honest. It sounds like a five-year-old wrote that. What can I tell you? Yeah, so who's in charge of this belief system is Julie Roe's belief system? Is it Chad's belief system? Is it Roger K. Young's belief system?

Roger is not Roger's young. It's not Roger Young's. He just believes in the call out and getting prepared. Okay. Julie had to be kind of from Julie. He really looked up to Julie. Julie really befriended his daughter Emma. They were good friends. And Julie, I call it grooming, taught her that Emma had these spiritual gifts and stuff. And it became very close, which made me very worried. So to confirm what you just said, you feel that Julie Roe groomed Emma Daebel and taught Emma Daybill that she had special spiritual gifts.

Yes. And where's Eric Smith in all of this, too? Because you've watched Eric Smith interview, and he says he was the one that introduced multiple probation. to Chad, and he was also very close to Emma Daybell and Julie Row. Could be true. I don't, I never met Eric. I was out of that.

I did not want to be involved in any of that. And I didn't have the time. Just didn't. Okay. So, but you feel that this specific belief system mostly stems from Julie Roe and Chad Daybell. Am I correct in saying that? Mm-hmm.

Okay. Yep. I, it's devastating to me. It's devastating. It affects my life what's happened. Because I, sometimes I think could I have done more. I could have done more. I could have saved those people, those kids. I just can't believe that Chad would ever divorce. Get a divorce. if you think Lori's so wonderful Divorce Tammy, really Tammy's better off Chad I mean honestly People get divorced And I encourage I was like why don't we get a divorce You know you probably heard that

And why not? Because you know they lose their exaltation At least Chad would I can't remember she said she would But he would Such a twisted idea That I just

I don't know Lori Valo had been divorced three times. She knew how to do it too. She could do it. I don't know why this time was different. And Charles is the hero in this, really. He really did try to stop everything. He did.

I look at Charles as a hero. He really is. He told anyone he could talk to. And the system failed him, really. But he really did try many times. In fairness, honestly, who'd believe what he was saying? She thinks she's a resurrected being in a

God and remember the 144,000. She's come, Jesus is coming next year. She took all the money out of her banking out today. My truck had gone from the airport. She went to the airport and got it. It seems so far fetched that he would, he sounded the crazy one, you know? I mean.

Right. She believes she was married. to Moronite. Is anyone LDS here? She said she was going to destroy me. You know, well, does that mean kill you? Yes. I don't know. Yeah, right. So what makes her a danger to herself and to others? She threatened me, murder me, kill me. She threatened to murder you? Yes. How did she do that? My bishop right there is in the car. He was on the phone with me today when she said, I will have you destroyed. That's what she said there. Okay, that's not a threat to kill you. Just there was a threat to kill me. What did she say yesterday? She said, you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles, but I can murder you now with my powers.

It's hard to believe. But yet, he was very serious. He really felt his life was danger. And he, I see him as a hero. I do. I see him as a hero. Did Lori and Chad really believe this? And I know you don't know Lori,

but in looking at it, looking at this case, something that you thought was the media skewing at first and realizing now a lot of it is true. Do you think that Chad and or Lori really believe this? Any opinions there? Huh. That's a good question. You would think with what they did, they had to believe it. But I think with Charles' death, I think it spiraled down to where this is just my belief. Tiley knew what really happened. And I think being the 16, was she 16 or 17?

16. 16. 16 year old. And I know, I know 16 year old daughters. I know what they're like. And they'll tell you anything. And that's what people say Tiley was. Honest, blunt, sassy, funny.

Yep. So I can see that she. probably felt guilty about what was going on. I know a 16-year-olds, they probably said, I'm going to tell. She might have said it. And I think that I think they had to take her out. I think that's what really happened. I think maybe they had to justify it saying, well, God told us to do this.

And, you know, but I think in the end, I think that they wanted to get of her because they were going to talk about, tell Charles how he really died. And then I think with JJ, I really think that he was just missing Tiley. I think he was missing Tiley. And I can't believe that, but I do believe what Chapp really believed is that God is on their side. And they did what God told him to do that he's sitting in the. creepily sitting in his truck and waiting for God to not find the kids. Yeah.

Somehow, I think they had to create some story in their head in order to live with what they've done. And that they chose to believe it or that they just, they believed it in the end is what you're saying. Yes. Not excusing anything by saying that. No, no. Right. And whatever their motives were, as you point out,

you thought about a motive for Tiley and JJ that in the end they were believing this. Knowing that you know, grandparents Kay and Larry Woodcock would have totally taken JJ and probably would have

taken Tiley if they knew that she was in danger. I know they would have. You know? You mentioned an interesting relationship with Julie Rowe and Emma Dabal that I'd like to go back to for a little bit. Did you ever become close to any of Chad's children? Again, I know you were busy with your own, but did you ever know any of them well?

I saw them once in a while, and mind you, the youngest was probably three or four when I first met them. Mark. And so I never really did anything as a family thing. I lived so far away. It was an hour and a half away, and I never really brought all my kids. And, you know, I really thought about doing family things with them. Yeah. Tell me then a little bit about this knowledge about Emma Daybell and her gifts.

Chad, I think, blogged about it a little bit. And Julie had, I think it was the earthquake she predicted that didn't happen, that she denies that happened. Anyway, and Chad backed her up like, oh, Julie never predicted an earthquake. That's when I sent the email. I'm like, I'm done with this. Why are you backing her up when she totally did predict an earthquake? She actually sent out an email,

feeling, having a sympathy email that like an hour or two before that she predicted it was happening, going to happen. But when it didn't, she quickly, it was, I don't remember, but she quickly took it down. It must have been on a website or something. But people took screenshots and. I was criticized in May of 2016 for saying that, an earthquake in the Wasatch of Utah in Salt Lake City was going to hit with a 6.7 to a 7 called,

and I coined it the Wasatch Wake Up. I was given that phrase, that title from my light warriors on the other side of the veil. And I am here to tell you, I will witness to you that is still coming. but people started really attacking Julie over this and Emma came back with this don't attack my friend she's so nice and to write that I mean I respect the fact she needed to

you know defend her friend but it made it sound like there's something wrong with her too you know Julie Rowe did mention that she spoke to Emma right after Tammy died that day. She did. Tammy died.

And with that being said, it's also interesting the relationship that clearly Emma had with Julie. And then I also know that Eric Smith and specifically mentioned Emma. And I go get in the car. My head of security is driving me and I call her.

And I talked to her for 40 minutes to the daughter. Now, this is fresh. It's raw. Okay? Her mom, she had just found out, what, like six hours before, four hours before, right, that her mom had died. And her dad had never told any of the kids that he saw in vision or knew that she was going to pass away. But the first thing she asks me, and she knows my gifts and she knows her dad's gifts, the first thing she asked me is, did my dad know? Oh, wow.

And I'm left with a choice. Do I lie or do I tell the truth? Knowing that Chad has lied to everyone already on the proper website saying it was a shock. And he said that at the funeral. Well, I am left with a choice and I'm not going to lie because I had been talking to Chad about it for two years that he thought his wife was going to die. And I did energy sessions for him to really release grief and all kinds of stuff. which is one of the reasons I knew was because I do energy work. I help people release trauma energy, grief, sadness, sorrow, all those emotions.

So I'm left for that choice. So what do I do? I said, yes, he did. And then she said, and she's sobbing. She said, did you know? And I say, yes, I did. And I said, your dad didn't know how. I didn't know how we were just told she would and it would happen soon.

If your dad knew how he didn't tell me. Then she's crying and she's kind of speaking freely and I won't go into that. And then towards the end, she says, we're about to hang up from a 40-minute conversation. And she says, you know what I'm scared about the most? And I said, what's that? And she said, my dad getting remarried. Really? And I said, why are you scared of that?

And she said, because I'm not okay with polygamy and I'm afraid because my dad told me about multiple probations. Multiple probations is the doctrine of past lives. So from October 19th until about two months ago, I asked the Lord every day, what did Chad tell Emma? Why is she so afraid? And what did he tell his kids about multiple probations that has her afraid? he's going to get remarried. And you know what I was told? Well, I put some pieces together because it got back to me from three different sources that at the funeral, contacts of mine, Chad came over to them and made a point of saying to them that he was doing okay because Tammy

had been visiting him. And he made a point of making sure everybody knew that. And then he made a point of telling his kids and some other people that the reason he could move on so quickly getting married to Lori is because Tammy had come to him and had encouraged him to marry Lori. Chad's children and Tammy's children. I loved them and I still do. And like their oldest daughter, she was, she's a sweetheart. And their oldest son, I knew all of them. And we spent time together and I think they're great.

I don't know where they are. Like I think they still believe their dead. as innocent. I don't know how you can see it honestly. But I hope they know that people genuinely love them. And I'm just really sorry. I wish I could have done more. It just hurts my heart. It's terrible. It's terrible. I never thought I'd ever know a murderer like that. That could be so evil and use it in the name of God thinking that he's doing stuff that God told him to do. How could you honestly believe that he, how could he believe that? I just don't understand it.

And I feel so sorry for the daybell kids. I feel bad for them. I can't blame them to think that their dad couldn't do this. I can't blame them for thinking that their dad had to be framed. I can't blow them. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. How could your mind go to where you knew your dad? He raised them. And I do know he used to tell me that Garth was a handful.

their oldest. As a toddler or his whole life? Oh, he was glad to see him go on his mission. He was that hard. That's what he told me. Really? Oh, yeah. So Garth was kind of bucking his dad,

which is normal. My oldest son that went on his mission, him and his dad fought a lot. But my dad, his dad was weird. Sorry. My ex-husband's got some problems. Do you know if any of these children were closer to Tammy?

Or was that really not? something you understood. Oh, I think they all were close to Tammy, but I don't know so much. But yeah, I loved Tammy. I did every time I saw her, which I didn't have as much interaction with her as I did with Chad, but I think the very last interaction I had with Tammy was, Chad was at a preparedness expo, selling books. It was after Julie. But one of the last conversations I had with Tammy is at a preparedness expo. And I went there. I was telling Tammy, I said, something wrong with Dewey. And she's like, what do you mean? What do you mean? And I think Chad was calling her over or something. So she had to leave. And that was the very last conversation.

I said there's just not something, there's something not right. Pretty much every time I saw her, she had her kids with her other than that first meeting. So she was mainly, you know, she took care of the kids and stuff. But what I knew of Tammy, she was the heart of the business. That's for sure. And she was just a sweetheart. So, and she wanted to. you know support her husband and in julie and stuff so she wouldn't have believed me because she's met julie she knew julie that sort of thing but did she do you think when you say that she wouldn't have believed you do you think she fully believed or understood her husband's belief system or do you think she was just a supporter of her husband I think she was a supporter I don't think

she knew everything he believed I don't I think that's why she became dark is because she didn't believe. I don't believe that she believed in multiple, multiple mortalities. Because I think a lot of people say that Tammy didn't go to a lot of those preparedness expos. She didn't. In fact,

you even saying you saw her at one, I thought, oh, she was there for one. I saw her at one. Chad almost always was there. He would go. So. Yeah. I've confirmed through a really good source that,

um, Lori was not his first affair. But beyond my source, Chad allegedly told Julie about an emotional affair he had. Listen to this interview on Jay for Justice's channel. I know of at least one other woman that he was in contact with that Tamara was upset about and that was texting and she tried to get a hold of me too. That's what I find interesting is that lady, she also lives in Arizona. That lady and Lori and Melanie and. and Zulema, like that whole group that's involved with Melanie, the nieces, Brandon stuff.

They all try to contact me in 2018 and 19, and mostly in 2018. And the other lady that was in Arizona that he was having an emotional affair with, that's what I call it. I knew they were in contact. She had emailed him initially first, and they were in contact. And I know he was actually angry, very heartbroken and angry. over that because she basically cut him off after her husband found text between the two of them and threatened Chad that he would expose him publicly if he didn't leave his wife alone.

So I had not only big response, but I heard that personally from Chad. Chad told me that. And so I personally suspect that he didn't take her to these conferences on purpose. That would make sense to me. Who knows though? And that makes me so sad. Tammy didn't deserve that. She was an abused woman.

She was an abused woman and he murdered her. She was abused. And if you don't look at domestic violence with her, I think that needs to be discussed because she was a victim of domestic violence. Thank you for sharing that. She was spiritually abused. She was emotionally abused.

About the game thing. I can't see Tammy having an addiction playing a game very often. Frontierville. Oh, my gosh. And he used it, well, your grandma, why would her grandma visit him and not her? Chad said that Tammy's grandmother, Lucille, visited him and told him to yell at Tammy and swear at her to stop playing her.

And that's video game so that she could do the work of her ancestors and stop being so lazy, essentially. That's the story you're referring to. What kind of angel does that? It makes me, I'm so mad. I'm so mad. It just makes me so mad that he's such a, I won't even say it.

And I'm not a swearing woman. I just can't believe anybody could be. He is the dumbest murderer I have ever heard. And if this wasn't so many people died, It would be funny. It's not funny, but it's so ridiculous, so ridiculous. Couldn't he have any sense? I've had to think, oh, zombies?

Why is the spirit telling me about zombies? There's got to be something wrong with that. Why couldn't he just question what he was hearing? Chad calls and says, hey, I want to let you know that I did some research and figured out that this Ned. So, Ned, yeah, Schneider, thank you. And Ned Schneider is in him. And she, anyway, she was taken back a little bit. it was a new concept for her.

She didn't know about that this could happen. So this was interviews from Chad. Absolutely 100% sure of that. I'm so angry over that. I agree with you about Tammy being a victim of domestic abuse, violence, and murdered. I don't think we talk about that enough. No, we don't. Because it is violence and it is domestic violence.

And she was abused. Like we just talked about the video games. I cannot see Tammy playing video games for very long. How did she even have time? Right. Right. One and two hours. Her husband couldn't run in business to take care of the whole family.

She had to work. Oh. I'm so mad over that. It just, because I'm getting my feelings out right now, aren't I? That's good. That's what hidden true crime is there for. I knew them.

I knew them. I knew them. and Chad telling me that they were, you know, soulmates. And that picture of him playing the ukulele or whatever that thing is. And her doing the hula dancing at their wedding. And oh, my gosh. Lori and Chad in Hawaii. Oh, it infuriates me.

How could anyone, anyone do that? Good heavens. I mean, you don't have to get married to have sex. Just go have sex. If you really need it that bad, honestly. It's just so disgusting. Knowing that those kids are dead, Tammy's dead, Charles is dead, and they're out there celebrating doing the hula?

Oh, that's just awful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that. I agree that it is awful. Your anger validated. I wish I could just erase all of it. I wish I didn't know, Chad. I wish none of this happened. I wish I could have done something.

Just. And there's sweet Heather. And I have a friend that knows her that were close high school friends and Heather Daybell. Yes. I'm sure she's feeling the same way I'm feeling is that she wish she could have done more. And she did a lot. I've heard. I don't know exactly, but.

She did. She tried to warn people like you warned people. My heart hurts for her. because that's family. Can you imagine? Oh my gosh. I'm just so grateful I didn't get caught up in one-eye-o-de. I wasn't invited to preparing a people.

Wasn't invited at all. I didn't stroke their ego. You know, I'm going to take this a bit further and ask you your thoughts. I know that you're divorced, and we won't get into your personal life story, but you made this decision with tension. with 10 children to get divorced and move into the next chapter of your life. And you see Tammy as an abused woman who died by, you know, her husband's hands.

Your LDS and your hope is to be a social worker and help. you are not the only one who saw Chad as someone that was perhaps humble and maybe a just fine husband. By all appearances, Chad was a good husband and he was kind to her. They'd sit on the couch and hold hands, you know. Okay. And he was kind to me. I thought he was a great husband and a great dad. I wished I could have had a man like that is what I was thinking when I knew him.

Wow. Wow. So what is it then? People didn't listen to you. People didn't listen to Heather Daybell. Heather Daybell, for those learning, is Chad, Daybell, sister-in-law and a neighbor or someone that lived nearby.

You know, people didn't listen to her either. What was it that people needed to see or understand when it came to Chad and Tammy's relationship or what Tammy was dealing with? Was there red flags? Was there something? we could have seen or have you even thought about that? I haven't really thought about it, but the culture really is, in LDS culture, is men.

Men have the priesthood. Women have to support their husbands and the priesthood. And divorce is really frowned on. I really don't like going to church partly because I don't feel like I fit in anywhere because I'm not a family anymore, basically is what they say. It's harder for you now than as a divorce. Very, very hard. And my kids aren't invited to like the scout things.

It's really weird to me. I've had other single moms say that. It's almost like we have leprosy or something. Maybe other wards are better than other churches. Wars is what we call them are better. But my experience so far has not been pleasant. We are holding the first. Let's go back to the James for a second.

You brought up Nancy James as someone that you feel is complicit. And our theme is uplifting the downtrodden and healing the brokenhearted, which we all can relate to, right? I'm just very honored to be part of the conference. I do. 100%. They gave Chad a platform. They say now that they didn't know him very well. They moved to Idaho for him.

And they started this preparing the people for him. Chad's one of my favorite people. In fact, he used to be in Springville, and then we followed him. to Rexburg. I don't believe that they, for a minute, that they didn't know what Chad was doing. I believe, I believe they knew it. I don't believe they knew that he killed children.

I don't believe that, I don't believe that the conspiracy that they knew Chad, of course, Charles, but I believe they knew a lot of his anti, you know, things that the Lius Church doesn't believe. I believe they know. Yeah, tell me about that. They mentioned in an interview once that they followed,

Chad Daybell up to Rexberg. Do you know more than that, though? Did they tell you anything about moving there for him or why? They told me, what she told me is, somehow I saw her at, I think it was the firm foundation and event. And she's like, oh, yeah, we moved to Idaho. And we saw Julie. I think I had mentioned this earlier, that they saw Julie.

And Julie said, yeah, I knew you would. gosh, she's like talk about predicting after the fact. Right. She does. That is true is that Mike James wanted me to do preparing people and Nancy James did not. I know this to be true because the Lord himself told me this, showed me this, and I do have gifts. And I could see remotely, because I can do remote viewing, that Chad was talking shit on me, Sean Little Bear was talking shit on me. Mike and Nancy James talk shit on me.

It's hard for me because people have seen what Julie does and they assume I'm like her. And that's not fair. I'm not like her. There's a lot of vicious people out there and they would attack me. Oh my gosh. It was quite abusive. I took a lot of abuse because if I said, oh, I, you know, call it might not be real. Oh my gosh, don't.

I mean, and that's where you know, then they're not really living Christian lives is if they attack you personally. It reminds me of a quote. When an abuser can no longer control you, they want to control how others see you. Chad also mentioned later on that Julie was jealous of Lori.

Because Julie Rose, the one that brought this whole emotion code. and energy work and all that. She's the one that really opened that up. And then he switched from being with that one lady, Suzanne Freeman, and then he dumped her, I call it dump because he just kind of moved from one person to the other. And they went to Julie Roe, and then he dumped Julie Row, and then he went to Lori. So he kind of kept doing this. Probably for money, you know, he's really in his books. So he wanted to make money. And I've learned that he made a lot of money after Julie books. All there's evil spirit starting to work on Tammy now. Tammy's good.

but they're not in her yet. They're like working on her. And they're coming around the house, something like that. And then she had to knock at the door one night. And Tammy wakes out to go see the house. And, of course, she had a lawyer and say, oh, that was Julie Rose Spirit that came and knocked on the door. Okay.

You lost me right there. Let me ask you about Tammy then. She's starting to question if he's seeing somebody else. Or Tammy. Tammy. That's what she would tell. So that's how they knew the evil spirits were in her. is because now they were starting, she was starting to, and I don't remember what she said something like,

are you seeing another woman, something maybe like that? There's one thing about not being happy in your marriage. And who knows, maybe Tammy was obsessed with playing the video game and she played it hours and hours. I can't see that. She worked full time. We are going to end here tonight. Please join us next week, a week from today for TGIF to hear Suzanne's interview part two. You do not want to miss it. Trust me, a lot more is coming.

I want to thank the YouTube channels whose clips I was able to use tonight, Zav Girl, J for Justice, Eyes Open, and the Julie Road channel. We'll have a link to all of those channels in the description of this video. And speaking of the description of this video, check there for winners of last week's giveaway. You'll find them there. I'm going to end tonight with something a little bit different. keeping with Suzanne's desire to dedicate her interview to Tammy Daybell and have her interview be in Tammy's memory, I wrote a tribute a couple of years ago, well, almost two years ago. It was

October 2020, and I want to share that with you all tonight. Suzanne, thank you for being an incredible human being and for being a wonderful hidden gem. Thank you for sharing what you know. We'll join all of you next week here at Hidden Two Crime to hear the rest of what Suzanne has to say. This last week, an important date passed October 19th, marks one year since Chad's wife Tammy Daybell died. John and I have been thinking a lot about her, and I wrote a tribute for her. I felt she deserved a voice, and I want to share with you before we end what I wrote. This last week marks one year since Tammy Daybell died. Chad claims Tammy passed in the middle of the night last October in her sleep. We still don't know how Tammy died, but we can all guess why she

died. We can only hope that it was peaceful. Tammy is a victim we don't hear a lot about. Her children have avoided any interviews, and her parents have mostly remained quiet, requesting to grieve privately, but also sharing that they hope justice is served swiftly, that they are suffering and will suffer for years to come due to the loss of their daughter and sister. It was uplifting news to hear on the first anniversary of Tammy's death, that her family started a foundation in her name, the Tammy Douglas DeBell Foundation. They say it will honor her love of service and literacy

and give children the opportunity to love the written word. Tammy seems to have lived a quiet life. Don't get me wrong. From all accounts, she was vibrant and ready to help anyone who was in need. She had her opinions and seemed quite independent. In addition to raising five children, who friends say she loved,

more than anything in the world. She showed her compassion for animals, including a quirky love for ducks. She loved her job as a school librarian and worked hard to run her family's publishing company. When I say she lived quietly, from what I can tell, she was content to live in her husband's shadow, working hard to support his dreams and her family's dreams. She was secondary. Others' needs came before her own. While friends say how positive she always was, I sense it's because she quietly kept her personal hardships and concerns to herself. When I say Tammy lived a quiet life, I mean she left a lot unsaid. The public is left guessing, left guessing, with plenty of evidence to assess. Knowing how much was on her plate, five kids, two jobs, serving in her church and community,

running the household, I don't know how Tammy would have ever found time to enjoy the online game frontierville. I can assume she found some solace. and a way to escape by playing. Chad let the world know about this habit of his wife, and he saw no benefit. Chad wanted Tammy wasting no time, pretending to be a pioneer, but rather researching real pioneers,

her ancestors with any free time she might have. According to Chad, after he told Tammy to stop playing the game, she hesitated. But as Chad explained, she finally obeyed his demands after he told Tammy that her deceased grandma, mother Lucille appeared in a vision, angry at her granddaughter. Chad told Tammy what Lucille's spirit

told him, and I quote, I told you to have Tammy quit her damn computer game cold turkey, so she would be receptive to a message from me, but she didn't. Tell her she has more important work to do than play games. Grandma Lucille yelled angrily beyond the veil. Tammy finally stopped after Chad shared his vision. I wonder if Tammy ever told anyone. this story. I wonder if it would have been another thing left unsaid in her life if Chad had not decided to share the story of shaming her so publicly. I wonder just how much was left unsaid. There is an engagement photo of Chad and Tammy. Tammy was either 19 or 20. It's an eerie photo now, filled with an awful irony as their chosen location for the engagement shoot was in a cemetery among headstones.

They both looked so cheerful. I sense in Tammy her Nyia. I can imagine her idealistic view of marriage and the hope she felt for a future life with Chad Daybell. I likely sense these things because it's all too familiar. I too was naive and idealistic and full of so much hope on my first wedding day. Like Tammy, I was married in the LDS Temple to a man of my faith. The man I married was a righteous man, a church attending man, a rule follower, and a spiritual hero to many. He was a also a man who yelled at me when I was late to church, told me angrily that he felt he had to carry all of the spiritual weight in our relationship and shamed me for not being a better help meet.

It was a help meet he wanted, not a partner. And me, this independent, feisty Venus flytrap, I was a studious pupil, learning all I could about being a delicate flower. I quit my career as a TV reporter. Not that money wasn't needed, it definitely was, but a less threatening career as a nanny seemed a safer choice. I learned to cook and I cleaned, yet my submissiveness was never enough. He was always moving the goalpost, and no matter what I did, I could never meet his expectations. Just like Tammy, I enjoyed an online game to pass the time. It was sort of numbing, and I didn't know what else to do. It was a virtual escape when a real escape felt impossible. I felt I had no other options. Like Tammy, I was taught that if I love the Lord and my husband love the Lord, we can make it

work. I was taught that if something was broken, you fix it. I was taught that it was near sinful, or at the very least shameful, to throw away a marriage ordained of God. I had been taught as a young girl by Sunday school teachers that a good marriage is trusting my husband, letting him take the lead and letting him make the decisions. I was taught that my grandmother was a saint because she put up with my grandpa who was difficult. She was praised for staying with him. I was taught about how women were God's gifted nurturers. I felt it was my responsibility to create a peaceful, happy home, and that it was my fault if it wasn't this way. My favorite scriptures were about loving others. I strive to always love my neighbor, but more importantly, I needed to love my husband, and I needed to forgive, and to forgive again.

It took two years for me to realize it wasn't my husband I had to continue forgiving. I had to forgive myself for making the wrong choice. It was only two years of my life, but it was still two years. I could have left on the honeymoon when he told me he had made a mistake marrying me. I could have left a few months later after he drove me to the airport, threatening to fly me back home to my parents because I was being difficult. When he told me that he wanted children, just not my children, I did leave, but he convinced me to come back. You can't just fight off all those Sunday school lessons.

It's not that easy. Not to mention my grandmother was a saint. I could try to be a saint too. I was 33 when I got married the first time. So with life experience, a career and independence in my tool belt, two years in, I found the confidence to divorce. My story has a happy ending. I found true love. I found love with someone who doesn't want to help meet, but a partner. I found love. I found love, with someone who doesn't share my same faith, but who respects me. I found love with someone who prefers Venus flytraps over violets. I married someone who rather than silence me, encourages me. John helped me find my voice and to say the things that shouldn't be left unsaid. Escaping emotional abuse is the title of my memoir, a book I published. I wanted to finally say it all, and John encouraged me the entire way.

There is no doubt in my mind that Tammy was an emotionally abused woman for years, decades. Marrying so young at the age of 20, she didn't have the tools I did. I think about that a lot. I think about it because I really believe that if I had married at 20 instead of 33, I might not have found a way out. Tammy's story ends in absolute tragedy. Her loyalty and compassion, dedication and forgiveness, her selflessness, cost her her life. Her life is that of a literal martyr, sacrificing it all and saying nothing.

The day before Tammy died on October 18, 2019, her good friend and coworker noticed Tammy was acting differently at work. Mandy Fowler said that her usually positive friend was acting frustrated. It was far from typical Tammy. Mandy will always wonder what was on her friend's mind. So will I. I wish she had found. her voice that day. So much was left unsaid. Tammy, I never had a chance to meet you, but I feel like I did. I wish we could have talked. Everything you left unsaid, you could have said it to me, and I would have listened. Rest in peace, Tammy Douglas, Daybell. Just like your family, your parents and siblings, we stand by them with the hope that justice is served swiftly. Good night.

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