Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: Suzanne Freeman, Friend of Chad Daybell PART TWO

Episode Date: April 8, 2024

PART TWO: This interview with Suzanne was originally recorded in 2022. A friend of Chad Daybell for 15 years, Suzanna and Chad had a falling out once he started publishing books by Julie Rowe. Suzanne emailed him and told him that his new beliefs would "Lead to death and destruction". Find out what else Suzanne knows and discovers during this heart-to-heart talk with investigative journalist and Hidden True Crime host Lauren Matthias. LAUREN MATTHIAS spent a decade working as an anchor and reporter. She has reported for News Nation and now produces the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime  Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Lauren. I've got to talk to Laura. I just felt I should. And it's really for Tammy. When he made the national news, the kids are missing and he's married some woman two weeks after Tammy. Tammy died. I thought, oh my gosh, this is just not true. It can't be true. Probably know him better than most anyone. I was one of the first books he published. We had conversations how Chad really felt him and Tammy were soulmates. I thought he was a good man. I really did and I felt that him and his wife made a really good team. This has been so devastating. So this was introduced from Chad. Absolutely 100% sure of that. Why can he just question what he was hearing? It's stupid. Zombies? Who writes about zombies that make it Oh my gosh, a zombie list?

Chad, you're going down in history is the dumbest murderer. And Tammy wakes out to go see us and of course, Chad and lawyer would say, all that was Julie Rose Spirit that came and knocked on the door. Okay, you lost me right there. Let me ask you about Tammy then. She's starting to question if he's seeing somebody else. Or Tammy. Tammy.

That's what she could tell. So that's how they knew the evil spirits were in her. It's because now they were starting to start, and I don't remember what she said something like, Like, are you seeing another woman? Something maybe like that? And she says, you know what I'm scared about the most? And I said, what's that? And she said, my dad getting remarried.

Really? And I said, why are you scared of that? And she said, because I'm not okay with polygamy, and I'm afraid because my dad told me about multiple probations. Multiple probations is the doctrine of past lives. And there's one thing about not being happy in your marriage. And who knows, maybe Tammy was obsessed with playing the video game and she played it hours and hours. I can't see that. She worked full time.

I just don't. But, yeah, I've thought about that and I thought, wow, hell must be laughing because Chad totally gave in to all these little stupid little things. And it's stupid. Zombies? Who writes about zombies that make it? Oh my gosh, a zombie list? Oh, the other question I had is, why weren't his kids put on the zombie list? I'd like to know. Were his kids that perfect that they're not zombies,

but Tammy's a zombie? Right. You know, there's a question about that in my interview with Anna. And you might not know about this, Suzanne, because I know you have kept your distance from the case. You've kept your distance, but you've also had to process it. And that's what I've learned from talking to you is, while you want it to go away and you try to avoid it,

you also send my head to process it and it's there in your face. And so I understand that too, you've thought a lot about some things and other things you're not as aware of. But there is what is called the infamous zombie and or Reddit email. I don't know if you know about that. Do you know about that? It came out early. I'm not sure.

Maybe. Yeah, it came out early on in the case in, well, January of 2020 is when this email made its way to public view. December 2019 is when the case hit the media and the children were missing. So the children were still missing at this point when this email came out. And the public was not privy to all the information or the belief system about zombies. So when this email came out and it discussed zombies and Chad and Lori getting sealed in the temple and light and dark spirits, It was so bizarre and absurd that everyone discounted it until we realized a month later it was real and that everything in it was accurate, including Alex Cox's blood clot that he, or lung clot that he died from.

Oh, that was in the email? Yes, that he possibly died of a lung clot. Yes. So I'll put a link to this in this description. we also talk about this email a lot with my interview, Anna, from Avow. And the reason that we talk about it a lot with Anna is because she was part of this email. She says that it stemmed from friends and acquaintances of Melanie Gibb. As people were missing, Melanie Gibb started talking to her close friends from Avow early on privately in the case.

And her friends started taking notes. and they shared this note among smartphones so that people could add to it. All these notes that people were taking about what Melanie Gibb was saying to them. Anna says that she has a more detailed Reddit email that didn't make it into the public's view that her shared note on her phone

has additional information that some how was redacted. In fact, this is one of the redacted lines. First off, this is part of the original. Lori withdrew JJ from school, and this was the last anyone saw him. Page four starts with a line that Anna says is not in the original. Lori calls Melanie at the end of September and said that Tammy was on to them. And then October 19, 2019, Tammy dies.

Chad and Julie had done energy work using a pendulum in C. yearstone on people. They had spent much time together. That was one of the redacted lines. Did you ever know of a pendulum? I just noticed, I heard about it when you talked about that. And my opinion about it is he stole it. How could anything come from God when it was stolen?

Yeah. Yeah. So weird to me. How could you get so off track like that? He must really like the attention. I agree. In that redacted information, is this line.

Here we go. I found the line. It's three redacted words. Chad tells Lori that Tammy, and then these three words are in bold, and their children have now become zombies. Okay. So it says, again,

here's the unredacted part. I'll read it one more time. I'll go back a little bit further. They, meaning Lori and Chad, get up early in the morning and walk around the BYU, Idaho, track together, holding hands and kissing. Tammy has become suspicious.

Chad tells Lori that Tammy, redacted words, and their children have now become zombies. So the original we saw was that Tammy had become a zombie. Okay. Anna is claiming Tammy and their children had become zombies, which would imply, I don't know if that means he was going to do something to them,

but I don't know. What are your thoughts about that? He probably could have done something to them then. but did they do? I mean, without Kay and Larry Woodcock, where would we be with those kids still? Well, I think Colby would have probably said something. Where are the kids, mom, you know?

But. Yeah, he was worried about his sister, Tiley. He was definitely trying to get a hold of her. Yeah. And I don't know. Dr. John might know more. But what they did per body, they were, I think they were angry. at her. I think it was more than trying to burn a body because I think Chad worked in the in that

failed more. He probably would have known about cremation more than a normal person would have. Right. But I think it was more we are going to get her. She's horrible. That sort of thing. Tiley upset Chad so much that as the deity he was becoming, he was not someone who was looking for feedback about his fallibility at that time. Tiley probably told her mother, this guy isn't who he seems to be. This is getting crazy, mom. I think you really need to pull back. And Lori just wasn't willing to hear that. And when Chad got word of that, I'm sure that her zombie status escalated quickly. Again, this is another way to dehumanize Tiley. Some of the evidence I have for this is the fact that Tiley's body was extremely disfigured and dismembered.

And typically, you'll see that when there's a lot of rage involved in a crime. It's one thing to kill someone and to bury them in a normal fashion or keep the body intact. It's another thing altogether to intentionally disfigure the body to take it apart. In some cases, that occurs because perpetrators are attempting to dispose of the body. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. This would provide some evidence for the fact that Chad was extremely angry with her. He was probably very upset that Tiley challenged him. If not directly, then certainly indirectly, through Lori.

And so Tiley, unfortunately and sadly, paid the price for that. There's wilderness out there in Idaho. They could have buried them and those children could have never been found. Well, that's why sometimes wonder if they believed it too. or as my husband John has said maybe Chad felt some power knowing that they were in his yard if he really wanted to feel powerful. I don't know your thoughts on that, but. I think he thought, I agree.

I think that that's a, I think he felt he was above getting caught. I have to wonder if they had these two belief systems that, well, the one that they are doing everything God told them to do. And so they're not going to get caught so they can just bury the children in their backyard. Yeah. My husband has suspected, and he didn't know Chad, so I'd love your opinion, that maybe Chad genuinely thought that if he doesn't do the killings, he didn't do anything wrong.

Do you think he would go there or was he at least smarter than that? No, I think he would have gone there. I think he would have gone there. to what he's done. He always seems so, I mean, I can't imagine him being the mastermind of it all. I think those two were a pair that she thought of something. And being a mother myself,

she had the chance to say, no, these are my children. We're not going to do that. You're wrong. She should have done that. They would have been alive if she would have done that, you know? You have mentioned, you know 16-year-old girls and 16-year-old teenagers

and how they act, And you've talked about how you think that with Tiley, it was quite personal that Chad would, of course, know about cremation being a cemetery sex. And that's not exactly what he was trying to do. It was cremate. But there was something maybe a bit more personal or cruel or heinous involved with how they sort of mutilated her body. They did. Yeah. They did.

And Tiley, and JJ was more carefully wrapped up. but he was, like almost there was more guilt about him or something. Yeah. But. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So with, so knowing 16-year-old teenagers and knowing Chad Daybell, how do you feel that Chad would react? And I mean this, even that Chad, you knew, would he react well to a sassy 16-year-old girl that perhaps spoke back to him or didn't believe him?

him. I don't think he would have. I think, I don't think he would have. And in that sense was he not only just a controlling man, but perhaps patriarchal in those views too. Yeah. With some of the interaction like the one with an author that he got really mad at for no reason, I can see that he would get annoyed at Tiley. I'm pretty sure. I mean, just an example of a teenage girl. I was pregnant and I had this apron that had that goes over your neck but it had ruffles around the waist and here I am like aetman's pregnant and my daughter looks at me and she's like mom don't ever wear that apron again you know I couldn't wear it for years and years because I made the way she said that and so yes I can see how a teenage girl could say things just off the cuff because they do

their brains aren't, you know, fully developed and they, you know, they are learning and they and, of course, mother and daughter, that can be an issue. Yeah. So anyway, that's right. That's why I see that highly could have been. I don't know. They must have, I think they justified it saying God told us, told them to do it. I knew about the Laffertie murders.

Do you, do you know anything about the Lafferty murders? And that many series under the banner of heaven is now playing on Hulu. Oh, really? Yes. I do know about the last. My sister was the one that took the call from the husband at 9.1. What do you buy that? The call.

911 call. She was a 911 operator. Oh, wow. And she thought, she thought he was joking. She said, I need the cops to come. My family's been murdered. And he said it in like a calm way. But he says, and then she questioned him a little more.

He says, well, I'm not at my house. My phone's been ripped off the wall. I'm calling it the neighbors. And then she knew that there was something wrong. And that was just two blocks away from where I was raised. So I kind of knew. And that's all about me because she laughed at them. That was all about what did you say?

Pligamy. It was all about pligamy because, heck, my dad had done the landscaping for one of them. They were a bishop and stuff. It was an American Fork area, Alpine, I think, where they lived. Wow. So you don't even know about this new miniseries coming up. This is just an experience. I think I saw a little bit of advertisement.

Okay. But you kind of relate this Lafferty brothers. To Chad. To chat. A woman laughed at the Lafferty. The gal that they murdered, the sister-in-law, she laughed and they said, well, you need to be a become a polygamous. It's from God.

And she's like, oh, that'll never happen. I think is what she said. That's what I heard. I don't know if that's true. Sure, but what you've heard. I think I was pregnant with my first daughter in 1980. She was born in 84, so I don't remember if. So yeah, that kind of hit home.

So I actually thought about what Chad had done and related it to that. So I assumed it was polygamy. Daybell was married to his first wife. And in the practice of polygamy, only the first wife is ever the legal. wife. All the rest of them are just celestial marriages done and sealed and they're spiritual. They're not legal or think, you know, the state doesn't have anything to do with it. And while Chad was still married to Tammy, he went and married Lori in the temple and was sealed to her. They arrived at the temple.

They were soon sealed in the ceiling room facing each other. Elena looked so stunning as she smiled at him, seemed so calm, while he felt quite nervous. Their opportunity soon came to kneel across the altar from each other. James and Elena knew that they were now sealed as husband and wife for eternity, as the earthly ceiling was taking place, a similar scene involving their spirits was happening on a higher plane. When they kissed and unified their souls, they knew they had just begun a new journey together. That was eternal and never ending. never mind that he's still married right this point and so in their minds it was real it was significant

there wasn't any pretending or playing about it they were a practicing polygamist couple at that point in in addition to polygamy there was also polyandry happening where lorry was married to two men at the same time chad always had this weirdness i don't know i don't know how to describe a Like when we were, he was getting done with my first book, he calls me up and he says, do you think maybe, do you think maybe kind of? Do you think maybe, well, you didn't say kind of. You think maybe we could do a subtitle to your book? Do you think that would be okay?

And he stammered asking me so much. I thought that was odd. I did find that odd. Yeah. I thought, why? Yeah, do it. You know, but I know that he had worked at another publishing company before and he'd worked with authors and they can be difficult. Like you change a name.

Sure. So. But you thought he was a little, he was a little insecure about asking you more than he should have been. Yeah, but then he was off the wall. Like one of my friends called me that was publishing with him. And she was so upset that he, she suggested a name. for the book or something like a little change and he went off the wall and shoot her out and said we might as well just not publish this book then if you're going to be that way and she's that was

just out of character it was it was so bizarre that she just asked a single question that he got so mad at her for she didn't think that that was appropriate at all and so i looked back at all this was he really, did he really get off the wall in private like that? Did he really get angry like that in private? Maybe is that why he can't laugh? I'll be honest, I found that really strange. He had this really strange laugh. And he was a terrible public speaker. He really was. He didn't, yeah, it didn't even look like he was very prepared. I was there like, oh, Chad, stop stammering, just talk. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Melanie Gibb and Chad DeBell, um, sadly it was recorded after Tyler's death. So 2019. And Chad is being asked by Lori and Melanie, who are the hosts. So Chad is the guest, Lori and Melanie are the hosts. And he's being asked about his visions of Jesus Christ. You are here with Lori and Melanie this morning on our podcast,

filled a fire. And this morning we had an opportunity to interview someone named Chat Daybell who's had many experiences with the Savior of this world. Because of our love for Jesus Christ, we wanted other people to know how much he is an invitation to come unto him. How much he wants us to become part of his life because he's already there. He's just waiting for us.

And he actually says multiple times through, throughout this interview that Jesus Christ had a sense of humor and a big belly laugh. And a smile and a laugh that kind of erupts kind of from his chest, you know. It's not just a giggle or anything. It's a wholehearted laugh. And it's a happy, happy laugh. He would joke a little bit with me. Nothing was too serious.

And that was always something that Dr. John, and I noticed we even did a podcast episode ourselves for Patreon on this podcast, discussing how interesting it was that while Chad doesn't seem to have much of a sense of humor, he kept putting this sense of humor on Jesus Christ. I believe as we advance to heaven that we'll be best off if we can have that kind of humor and that happiness in our lives as well and not be judgmental of others. That was one thing that really stood out to me. He just was not judgmental.

There was a love there that said, I accept you as you are, just do the best you can. He's not judgmental. He's just so not judgmental. He just doesn't judge us. I'm like, this is the man that created the light or dark rating scale and has declared children evil.

And he decides to let everyone know that Christ is, not judgmental. So my mind was a bit blown there that he thinks of Christ is lighthearted, when he's so serious, and then not judgmental when I don't know if you could pick a more judgmental person than Chad Debeau. A couple thoughts on this. Number one, it shows the absolute lack of self-awareness he has. If you think about the fact that he participated in the murder of a child like 10 days or a week before this podcast, and now, Now he's saying not to be judgmental and to be loving and to have a light, a lighthearted sense of humor.

So the first thing that stands out about that is that this person clearly, and we've talked about this on our podcast, this person clearly lacks self-awareness. He lacks any insight into who he is and what he's doing with this life. So that's one. Number two, I think Jesus represents an ego ideal. Psychologists call it an ego ideal. An ego ideal is exactly what it says. That is that most of us have some ideal version of ourselves that we strive for.

Oprah would call it our best selves or whatever. Self-help people would refer to that as kind of our best selves. But the ego ideal is more, is often a little more. It's not as known. It's a little more subconscious or unknown. The ego ideal is this ideal image we develop of ourselves when we're little, that we kind of hold in mind, not as necessarily as an aspiration, but as something that's a part of us, but something to strive for too.

So I think Jesus, the way Chad describes him, is very much an ideal. So it's a projection of what he wants to be, but it's a projection that he is not. The humor, you're right, he's humorless, he's bland. Everything he describes in Jesus is not what he is. Jesus is very much, at least in this podcast and the way Chad describes, and Jesus is very much a projection of what Chad wants to be. Although, ironically, the lack of self-awareness suggests that Chad sees himself in this way to some degree. Okay. And the fact that at this point in his life, he's murdering kids and spouses.

And he talks about Christ-loving kids, you know, and kids going up to him. Right, his grandkids, yeah. humorous. He can see the light, the lighter side of life. There wasn't a sense of judgment at all. He was always so kind. There were a couple of scenes I could see where my grandchildren went up to him a little bit timidly. But he just bent down on one knee and held his arms out and they went right to him. And he just held them. tight and smiled up at us as we watched him give them a hug and did show his kindness and love towards everybody. He's not the thing he wants to be, obviously, and he doesn't see it. So there's a massive blind spot to say the least here about this ego ideal and who he really is.

There's this massive discrepancy, right? There's this gap between who he wants to be and who he is. we can get in a discussion about this um please so so in my book i talk about christ's laugh bust gut laughing is what i call it he jad his belly laugh so what was the term you used in your book i think i'm not sure if i use it in my book but i call it bust a gut laughing and and that you say christ he has a beautiful sense of humor. And he's a perfect laugh. Do you think then Chad was perhaps taking,

plagiarizing some of your thoughts? Oh. Yeah. So here's the thing. When I heard before all this came down, he talked about him having a near-death experience. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't.

I'm like, all those years. I think by then it had been 15 years I'd known him. He published three of my books. Having a near death experience, I know that people come to me and say, I had a near death experience and they tell me. They can't help it.

I can't blame them either. And I love hearing their stories because they're beautiful to them, right? He never once told me. Never once told me he had an NDE. not once and I'm sorry you write you publish three books

from a woman and you don't tell her you had an NDE I'm sorry I don't believe him because you know I've become friends with a lot of people and

I was a really neat person I got to visit with and she you know he wrote a book for her about her dreams and her well mostly about her near-death experience when she was sharing that with him

he didn't disclose his that's like if you and I were talking and I said look you tell me all about her near-death experience I'm going to tell you about mine right he didn't do that and so she's like I think he took stuff from her and Julie and other people I think he just kind of storywriter and I have proof too because I have a lady that had read his book and um he put in the back of his first the trilogy or I don't know how many books he wrote about the last day stuff and he put it in the back of the book about my books advertising my books and he interviewed me and that those books were based on my experience. He put it in the book.

And so then when he starts talking about, well, I wrote those three books based on mine, I'm like, are you that dumb that you can't remember that you put that in your published books and people know that you wrote those books about me, but all of a sudden they're about you now? Wait, wait, wait. So he said, wow. Do you have a copy of that? I don't know. I might.

I'll have to look. If you do let me know, if you do send it my way or take pictures. If you do take cell phone pictures and send them to me. Or if someone else does. Or if someone else does. Yeah. Yeah. Or anyone you know.

I know he did that because this woman invited me to her house for her birthday. And I couldn't come because it was my son's birthday that day too. And she told me this is how I found out about your books because Chad put it in there. And he quizzed me so much. I had no idea what he was doing. I don't remember if he said he was writing a book. I don't even think he told me that. Then I met a lady named Suzanne Freeman. But he was quizzing me. Doctrinally, I wanted to make sure she was on track. And I remember distinctly really knowing that like the spirit, just a still small voice was telling me, don't tell him anything that you're not sure about because he's gullible.

And after I had cross-examined her enough, I felt confident about it. And that's when we put together first her book called Led by the Hand of Christ, which is more focused on her experiences in the spirit world. I had to say, yes, I saw this, or no, I did not see this. I could not give him anything that maybe or, well, I kind of saw that, but, you know, maybe I saw it. You know, I wasn't going to do that. And I don't normally do that anyway.

I'm not that way. But I remember distinctly, he quizzed me a lot, asked me some of the questions I thought were kind of silly. But that's when he admits that he quizzed me and wrote those. He really loved the last day stuff a lot. He did. So. In describing your near-death experience on this interview, I keep referring to, he never

mentioned his near-death experiences and he also discussed quizzing you a lot to make sure that your story was accurate and stuck with the doctrine of the church. Yep. And that's the chat you knew. That's the chat I knew. He opened a, he started a publishing company that was only for the LDS author people. And so you feel it was Julie Rowe that essentially, essentially steered him off. I do. I do. He was convinced that she's humble,

that her story is really, really good. She's very, very humble. He kept telling me that. And I knew I was frustrating him. He says, oh, Suzanne,

Susie, just read her books. You like it. I'm like, what I read, Chad, I just don't like. There's something not right. There's something not right.

And he would roll his eyes. and got so frustrated with me because I wouldn't do it. He would tell you that he and Tammy were soulmates and that he knew her in the pre-existence. Yep. Did he ever tell you that he thought Tammy might die, yeah? No. He did tell that to Julie Rowe and others, but not to you. No, never me.

Did he ever, did you ever suspect him hitting on you or anything? No, no. He was, no. No, I never. Okay. I would never, he was, he was a happily married man. I would never have thought that he would ever. Okay.

But obviously, I'm not Lori. So. Right, right. Do you think he might have had an affair with Julie Roe? Yes. Okay. I do. And go ahead. Julie liked to claim that she was assaulted by him and they kissed.

Well, I think that's her guilt. I think that they, spiritual healing. can, kind of like therapy. I'm learning this, that when you're a therapist, there's feelings that can happen when you're so intimate to each other, talking about things that are so private. Sure. And counselors get caught up and they start having sex with their clients. And that's so against this client privilege.

I mean, you could get your license taken away for doing that. So I can see spiritual healing being in that category. That you let your guard down. There's like emotional feelings that go around. I totally think that they did. I do. And Julie's like, oh, he kissed me and she was assaulted. I don't believe it.

I think it was consensual for sure. And the time that you need Chad Daybell, did he ever hit on you? Yes. What happened? And my husband knows it. Did Chad Daybell think you were one of his past wives, too? Yes. Why not just have sex right now?

Because you've already been married in another life. I'm seeing a pattern. Then there's Lori Valo. Then there's the other lady you told me about that he was texting and her husband found out. That's three right there. He also told me that he thought he was married to Melanie Gibb. I want to point out too that that assault that she talks

about the date of that would actually be after he had met Lori. And I find that interesting because I wonder... It is, huh? Because I do wonder if he left. This is me wondering, speculation everyone talking to my friend,

Suzanne here. But I wonder if he left. Julie or broke up with Julie to be with Lori. Probably. And the fact that she's I've talked a little bit to

Melanie Gibb and Melanie says that Julie was quite demanding and she wouldn't she would text a lot and she'd just get annoying and I think Chad got kind of sick of that. I got a text from Chad last February when we had our falling out

and I called him out on his relationship. Lori and some other things. Okay. I didn't name her. I said, I can see that you were talking to other women and having phone calls and conversations and I'm not okay with it. And then I called them out on some other things on his energy. He got pissed and he basically was like, wow, I can't believe that.

You don't know me at all. Right. And you know what God said to me? You nailed it, Julie. That could be the reason, though. Yeah. Interesting. Melanie Gibb, you two,

have talked. Yep. She came to my house. We talked. Because, you know, I've become friends with a lot of people and

and I was a really neat person I got to visit with. Was that healing at all for you to kind of understand her thoughts or did that help? How about this? Not healing.

Did that help you process anything, being able to talk to her? It did a little bit. And understand more. I saw you had had a discussion a little bit with someone else about her and I didn't realize, I mean,

I just talked to her. She came to my house. and we've talked several times since. I haven't talked to her for about a year. But she had to have known more of, I'm wondering if she, now I've listened to what you guys said. She isn't being all truthful.

Sure. But at the same time, she is a witness to a lot. And she knows a lot, which can help people. And I genuinely hope, that she is a witness called in this case because of what she knows. So no matter what she is or isn't telling everyone or how great her memory is or isn't,

I do think that she is helpful to understand more. And she wants to make sure that justice has done. I do know that. But I think she hates to admit that she got caught up in that. Right. She doesn't want to admit that. Yeah. And the things that she might have done wrong too.

Yeah. And I just think, why could anybody, why would Lori believe that Chad just automatically just told Lori when they first met that he knew them, her and I don't know how many past lives? Who would believe that as a pickup line? I'll be honest. I can't believe that, you know what I mean? And it just seems so far out there. that I agree. So far-fetched.

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That's what I would have thought. Right. But those two were quite an evil match, that's for sure. Did Melanie Gibb share anything about Tammy suspecting? Because she's mentioned that in multiple police interviews and that Reddit email. Did she say anything about why Tammy was dubbed a zombie to you at all? I think she told me that Charles, I can't remember. I don't remember that conversation.

So I don't know. Okay. That's fair. Yeah. I can't believe that Charles wouldn't have idly by and not contacted Tammy. I think there's an email through her school email or something. He seemed like a smart enough man that could figure out how to contact Tammy. Agree.

Agree. You mentioned that the Jameses followed Chad to Rexburg from Utah. At the Firm Expo where I was earlier this month or the Book of Mormon evidence conference, which is also known as. Yeah, that's how I knew it is. Yeah, so you knew it as. I talked to several people who knew Chad and Lori, and one gentleman did say that he knew of at least five families who had followed

Chad to Rexburg. And he also mentioned the James did as well. So you're not the first person to say that. Do you know of anyone else that did or know? of people moving to Rexburg to prepare for the second coming? No, I don't. I have a friend that moved there because the housing was cheaper. Right, I think several people do that.

I laughed when Julie predicted that Rexburg is going to be a safe haven place because I was alive. My, I had an aunt and uncle that lived in, out there, Rexburg area. And when the dam broke, And they're not that far from Yellowstone. I can't believe that that would be a safe place. And when Julie said that,

it kind of made me laugh. I'm like, oh, come on, Julie. So did that come from Julie? Was Chad living in Utah still when Julie predicted this? I'm pretty sure it came from Julie. I'm sure it came from Julie. Because Julie went up there to Brexburg and gave it speech and talked about how. That first preparing a people conference.

how this is a safe place. Isn't it interesting that she never moved there? That is very interesting. Someday after the second earthquake happens in Salt Lake, Rexburg, the little Rexberg will be from the headquarters of the church as the war ends and we begin to move to New Jerusalem. Rexberg will be the singer. The plagiarism.

You see a lot of plagiarism in Julie Rowe and Chad, is that correct? Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. She used the format of my book the way a timeline went, and her book was pretty much the timeline in my first book. And Julie took, some people claim that there's other near-death people that she took their stories. Some people say, oh, she just compiled other people's dreams and visions from online, yada-a-da. That's all a lie. That's all a lie. This is totally legit, my own experience, and I wrote it within three weeks. Julie Rowe claims in her autobiography that her first near-death experience is when she had her tonsils out as a child. Can you tell me a little bit about what you think when you hear that?

Oh, she totally copied me. That's not even private. I mean, that's been private for me. That's been private. tell that. Did you tell that to what? I told that to Chad. I told it to Chad. And the reason why I, oh my gosh, I'm so glad I did this. So when I heard her third book was coming out, Chad had, maybe a year before that, he told me, we were trying to get all three of my books put in one big book and take out a lot of the Mormon stuff and just get it out to a normal audience, just random audience. And so I was kind of working on it to get, things in between so that one story can lead into the other and reason why we did that. So I was writing all this down. And then Todd just randomly said, I'm not going to be publishing any more books. The call-out's going to happen in July. So I'm not publishing anymore.

And I thought, fine. I'm fine. I don't care. That's what he said. That's what he told me that the call-out was going to happen in July. And this was 2014. 15, 15. Julie's third.

That July and that would be happening that July. Yep. So he's not going to publish any more books. Well, that July came and gone. And I told him it wouldn't happen. And then he started publishing books and I heard Julie's third book was coming out. I knew I had to get a blog out there. And I made sure he knew it.

And I made sure he read them. because I felt that she would use my stuff, that he would let her use my stuff. Somehow my stuff get into his stuff or something. I just knew it. And I kind of thought, gosh, am I being like crazy? And for a lot of years, I thought, oh, that didn't. That couldn't have really been the case.

He couldn't have done it. But I just really put a lot of my stuff that I was given him, I put it on a blog. and the tonsill thing, oh man, I'm very angry about that because I've kept apart private to people. And honestly, how many people almost dies from having a tonsillectomy? Tell me. How many? I would assume.

I don't know any statistics, but I had to have blood transfusion. Wow. I puked blood. I puked like those kidney shapes. things. I know two for sure. I filled two up and I was this tiny little yeah I know I did three. I was on my third and it was coagulated blood. And you shared this with Chad. You shared this experience. I know I shared that with Chad because I wanted to keep no I didn't really want to publish it that. You know and I did come very intuitive from that. Yeah. I've talked to a close source.

I would say a pretty good source that told me that Julie Roe, that they knew, this person knew that the first near-death experience they knew of when it came to Julie was something that happened in the hospital when she was suffering from mental illness. But they never mentioned anything about tonsils coming out. I just want you to know. I'm not discounting Julie either. I'm just sharing what another person has to. We're probably the only two in the world that ever nearly died from tonsillitis, tonsillectomy. Yeah, in modern days.

Yeah. Yeah. I have a, I have, I don't know. I need to be tested, but I had an ectopic pregnancy that about died and blood from. Well, first I had the tonsils. I bled and had to have blood transfusions. And my ectopic pregnancy and, and I had to have some transfusions going through perimenopause.

Like my iron level was 5.4. Oh, wow. Well. People wouldn't believe me because I shouldn't be walking around, but I'm a tough cookie. Roger Young, of course, she took her last day stuff. I know that you were a bit disconnected with Chad or didn't have as much of a relationship with Chad.

following him publishing Julie Rose books and your beliefs, you know, differing. Did you ever hear about a train dream from Chad? And I asked this because at the Ferm Expo, uh, one gentleman, uh,

who's never listened to any hidden true crime podcast. He didn't know who I was when we started this conversation. He does now because I was honest with everyone at the firm expo who I was, with who I was. But, uh, John and I have discussed this train dream that was on a vow. and in our original podcast found on, you know, Apple or whatever people listen to podcasts.

And, and this gentleman at the FermXville brought it up and he said, I think everything started with this train dream with Chad. And this train dream essentially implies that Chad was on a train with other profits that were perhaps fallen. And that the idea is that he was on there with Julie Rowe and other well-known LDS authors like Gerald Lund. and that these authors had more knowledge essentially than the prophets and they would be helping people in the last days. Anything like that sound familiar? No. No, nothing like that.

He was never like that with me. I always thought he was the strict prophet follower that could never believe what the prophet was doing. Well, that's not the man I knew. But evidently, he started creating the zombie lists and all. this stuff. So he must have decided that he's a prophet. Right. Why did Chad say that the end of the world would be in July? While he was clearly wrong, it seemed like he continued to stick with that date or that month. Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's weird. I'm wondering if it is because of other dreams, like in the dreams and

visions of the last days. But I'm thinking that that might be where it is. Yeah, that makes sense. So when was the last time you and Chad ever communicated and how did that go? That. Well, we had some bantering back and forth because I wanted my rights back. And he simply just said, oh, it was in the email. He says, I'll give him back to you if you pay me. And I owned him $300.

He gave me the cost. And I didn't have it, but my friend gave it to me. She actually just gave me the money to pay him off. So I paid him off. months went by and he didn't pay me and he says oh well there's some royalties that i owe you so he gave me a four hundred dollar check and um but still gave him 300 he gave you four okay yeah i initiated a call to him and i said i want to stop publishing my books with you and he gave me my book rights back and then a week later he tried to say that i had to spend over 13,000 dollars to buy my books

that he had already printed. And I told him no, and I got angry. And I said, God's telling me that's not what I'm supposed to do. He said in text, I don't know why you're so angry at me for suggesting you buy these books. This is how we're going to handle it. And I said, you already told me I had my book rights back. And when you figure it, I think I got 10% of the books. So how much money was he making off my books?

When he promised me that he would give me my royalties back, right? Your deal was that you only got 10% of the book sales? And I know how much money he made off. me for every dollar I made he made about four bucks and I probably sold 150,000 I probably sold 150,000 books I got more money when it was just a downloaded one I think I got I got a couple dollars that way but yeah no he totally he was making money off my books and he didn't want to give me back the rights because he was making money and he I think he kind of figured I would just put it out there for free and that's what I did I

There's no way. There's no way I could sell those books. I just couldn't. With what he's done, I have to give him away. Where can we buy your book now, which is also something that you suspect a lot of your experiences are perhaps in Julie Rose book and Chad's book, books and speeches.

But where can we find your book today if we want to read it? I think it's Suzanne Freeman, Wend, Vesper, but I can't. I'm going to have to look that up. For any of those interested in reading Suzanne's book, we'll have a link. Free. I have other,

yes, I have some of my other stuff that never went in a book about Christ and my experience. So despite Chad having rights to your books, we'll have a free download from Suzanne in the description of this video. But in addition to that, while you are giving this book out for free,

you do hope that perhaps our listeners may consider giving or supporting one or two causes. Can you share? So there's this group called, it's just one chapter. It's called Chain Breakers. And it's for abused people, not just women. And they have a food room. And all of them are volunteers. They have a food room.

people can come in. There's fresh breads. There's fruit and vegetables that these volunteers pick up that very day once a week. There's soup from a really good kitchen, the restaurants. And then there's a clothing room that is donated clothes. And this is women's clothes. They don't do men's clothes because they just don't have the room for that. But you can go in and for free and pick out clothes that would fit you. If you want, and I need to do this, Amazon has, where they can donate to charities, a certain portion. And they are on that. So it's Chain Breakers Foundation.

And Chain Breakers is all one word. They have one gal that's a therapist, that's a social worker, that helped me realize the very first meeting she was talking. And she says, you know, the inside you're not broken. And I had to think about that. How can the inside me not be, how could it be, you know, not broken? because I've been so abused for so many years. And they have classes.

I think it's every Tuesday. It's by Zoom sometime. I think lately they've been doing some Zoom too. And it took me three years to realize I can do this. I can be single. Not. I have, oh my gosh, they have helped me. So I hope any of you listen.

They're willing to take a check. You can send them a check too. We don't get people out of the problem. we educate them to get out of their problem. But hence chain breakers, meaning also trying to stop the next generation from doing with the past. They have mentor systems. So I call Betty's my mentor and I'll call her.

And they do tell me I'm not that average abused woman. They tell me that somehow I always had this innate ability, even when my husband would say just awful things to me. I'd always hear that that's not true. You know that's not true. So there's always this inside me that wasn't broken, but I didn't realize the inside me wasn't broken. But they helped me.

So this is a foundation that helped you to escape an abusive situation. You have, you're doing this for Tammy DeBal, who you say is a victim of abuse herself. He is. She was abused. and this is a foundation that helped you personally and can help other women like you and like Tammy Daybell. And so if anyone would be willing to help you in this cause, as Suzanne gives her book out for free, it would mean a lot to Suzanne.

I know that another foundation that Suzanne and I have both talked about as well and that I've talked about on here, another option for those interested is the Tammy Douglas Daybell Foundation was started by her siblings. So not her children. People ask that, but by Tammy Douglas Daybell's siblings. And they say that donations will be utilized to give books to children, assist libraries with various programs and support literacy programs across the country. They're doing this in Tammy's name as she loved to read and believed in teaching children how to read as a school librarian. And so with that being said, this episode, as you have always said, is dedicated to Tammy. And for those interested in helping women in abusive situations recognize the abuse that helped you recognize some of the abuse that you didn't even notice.

Is that correct? Yep. We'll have the Chainbreaker's website in our description of this video. And for those interested in helping the nonprofit in Tammy's name, something started in her memory by her siblings and parents. We'll have the Tammy Douglas-Dabelle Foundation's link also in the description of this video. And in lieu of payment for Suzanne's book that Chad still has the rights to, but you can get for free, please consider a donation, even a one-time donation to any of these nonprofits.

Gave me chills when I heard what her family's doing. And Tammy needs a voice. I just feel sad you can't voice it alive. Agreed. Terrible thing. this will go down as the most bizarre, stupidest murders I've ever. It will ever, it would be talked about for generations. It will.

It won't be forgotten. If someone like Dr. John comes up and studies, becomes what he's doing, I can't remember what your husband is. A forensic psychologist. That's it. A psychologist, yeah. They will see that case.

I have wondered, do you think maybe you're helping some of the detectives figure out some of the timelines? You know, I wondered because so many people are diving deep into this. I had just retired from TV reporting to be with our son. Our son was a year. But you can't take the journalist out of me. Into this crime, you wonder if maybe the detectives think, oh, we didn't think about that. You know? What I mean?

Yeah, no, I know what you mean. My answer is I don't know. I don't know, you know. But I will say this. We've learned a lot from investigators, and they have worked tirelessly on this. And if there's one thing, they've maybe learned from

hidden to crime that might help them, I hope that it does. I definitely know that John and I only want to be able to help and not harm anything going on. So if that is the case and it has helped anyone make sense of it or any investigator that we're honored to have helped, those investigators and detectives have been incredible and we have learned so much from them. I sure wish that they're in a bunker.

That's where I thought they were, the kids. I thought they were in a bunker. I thought they were in a bunker. I did. What about Tammy's death? Did you just suspect it was natural? I thought it was. I had this weird.

He put a Facebook post, and I don't know if you've seen read that. Weird to me. It was, and I talked to a friend who we both read it, we're like, that was bizarre, because I thought had she died from a long sickness?

I thought maybe it was cancer. Was this about Tammy's death? His Facebook post announcing Tammy's death? Yeah, he made a Facebook post. That's how I found out about it. And I thought, first off, it wasn't very well written, but I thought, you know, he's a grieving husband that he wrote that. I mean, I can kind of see how that could be.

But it wasn't that beautiful of a tribute, really. And I, but I thought she had died from a long sickness. When you read it. I think you did say suddenly, but there's, I don't know, there was some. really weird vibe I got basically. When I read that, I thought, something doesn't feel right about this. Why? And when I do that.

If we're thinking of the same post, because he wrote one for a vow and he wrote one for his private Facebook post. So if we're thinking of the same post, I agree with you. And one thing I noticed was that it was actually more about him than her. Like, we will miss her because she was good at A, B, C, and D. But don't worry, my children will be able to take over where she, you know, Oh, see, and I didn't catch that. But all I knew, it was, there's just my, uh, your gut.

My gut was telling me there's something not right. So. Yeah. And I'm glad I'm able to speak for Tammy. Her family just can't. So. Right. I don't love this.

It's it. I have to distance myself sometimes. But then when you contacted me, I, kind of had to watch what you do just to make sure that I'm comfortable with, you know, doing it. But I do it for Tammy. So, and I have nothing to be ashamed of. I didn't get caught up in it. I didn't believe what they did. I didn't change my mind and turn them in. I did not get caught up in it. And he, I'm sure I would have been on the zombie list. I'm sure I would have been. You could have been. Who knows?

And I was a little afraid Me, knowing that he knew I knew things. We have someone that does redaction science. Maybe I'll ask her to plug your name in some places. Yeah. I was trying to get my rights back there for a couple of years. Finally, I realized, you know what? He's in prison.

He's not going to get me back. He did end up giving me the PDF files and on a seat of my three books. But I didn't dare do anything with it until I knew I was legally able to. Yeah. Is there anything else you wanted to say that we might have missed when it comes to this case and your experience with Chad and his belief system? No, I've seen a lot of this stuff before.

And all I can say is, Chad, you're going down in history is the dumbest murderer. not just a murderer, but a dumb one. A dumb one. And you think that maybe if he had Alex do the dirty work or something or if that's what he did, maybe he thought he could get away with this or something, that it wouldn't be on him? I think he had to tell himself that he's doing what God told him to do.

Yeah. That's all I can figure, but maybe that's not what he believed. I don't know. Yeah, who knows? I've seen people think that they're doing stuff for God. and, you know, people fight wars for God. It's become pretty obvious. He thought of himself as this powerful Davidic servant figure who essentially had power over death and destruction and gathering people.

Because he was, he had a gathering, let's face it, a following and was kind of gathering people. I think it's true that he thought of himself as that Davidic servant. And that all of the above in Tier 2 fell under his immediate jurisdiction, his covenants, his mission on earth, if you will. And Laurie just got wrapped right into it. And they were the dream team for a little while, you know. Your first book by Shirley, you know, the author and editor, it says that the description of is that will open our hearts to the great love and concern the

Savior has for each of us. That sounds simple and beautiful. I just want to say thank you today for opening your heart and your knowledge to all of us. I know it wasn't easy and I hope in some ways maybe this helps you process it too. We're, you know, everyone's, the more we talk about it, the more I understand that everyone's trying to understand and heal and comprehend how such a horrendous tragedy could take place. So I just want to thank you for the time you've shared with us and for Tammy. And for those that are really trying to understand this, we do, we do have a lot of listeners from Idaho. We do have a lot of LDS listeners. And I think they're all doing the same thing we're doing, trying to wrap our minds around this, you know? So thank you.

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