Hidden True Crime - BEYOND THE VEIL: THE PREQUEL - Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow - The background story you've never heard

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

Our original Beyond the Veil season continues as a forensic psychologist and journalist (who are husband and wife) explore the inner workings of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow Daybell's minds, as well as the hidden motivations driving a series of inexplicable murders in 2019. While they've uncovered what's hidden for three a half years, ever before have they put a backstory together like this--allowing it's listeners to understand the full context of episodes and interveiws--those published and unpublished. While host Lauren Matthias sits each day in court during Lori Vallow Daybell's trial in Boise, Idaho and sharing updates from court, you can get caught up by listening here, and listening to our full 'Beyond the Veil" season. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in Boise, Idaho Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes and criminals to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah and in 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and has been reporting with News Nation throughout the trial. She is the producer and editor of the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Contact them at [e-mail] WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The trial of Lori Daybell is going on and I want to start with a summary of the case of the last three years. what we've discovered here at Hidden True Crime. John and I started our podcast to dig deep into the psychological motivations behind unimaginable crimes. Our season, Beyond the Vale, was featured on Dateline and the Netflix documentary Sins of Our Mother, and it focuses on the criminals behind the infamous Lori Valo and Chad Daybell case. Three and a half years later, the trial for Lori Vallo Daybell has begun, and I am in the courtroom every day live tweeting at Twitter.com slash hidden true crime, going live at lunch at

YouTube.com slash hidden true crime, and then live streaming the day's audio at YouTube.com slash hidden true crime. We recommend our playlist, the full daybail collection on YouTube, the Beyond the Vail series on our podcast, hidden a true crime podcast, or our beyond the veil YouTube playlist. In the process of researching for our first season, I interviewed many closely connected to the case, and those interviews can be found on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. I will also share many of those interviews with you on our podcast soon. Let's continue Hidden True Crime's journey during this trial and seeking to understand the unconscious motivations, the human behaviors, both good and bad, that lie hidden. At the time of this recording,

It's April, 2003. And the middle-aged newlywads, Lori Vallow-Daybel, and Chad DeBell are currently behind bars charged with multiple murders. And the first week of Lori's trial is just wrapped up. We are heading into week two. There are numerous deaths surrounding the couple. Chad's first wife, Tammy Daybell, Lori's fourth husband, Charles Vallow, and two of Lori's children, 16-year-old Tiley Ryan, and seven-year-old. J. J. J. Ballo. Both Lori and Chad belonged to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when the alleged crimes were committed. It's also known as the Mormon or LDS Church, and you'll hear the very

nicknames of the church throughout this episode and the interviews we share. Chad and Lori were both seemingly committed to their religion and were active participants in their individual congregations, Chad in Idaho, Lori, in Arizona. Chad did not. live in extravagant life. For years, he worked as a small town cemetery sexton. But he found pride in his writing. He was a doomsday author of several books portraying the last days through fictional characters and stories. The opportunity came for me to take over as the cemetery sexton there. And I took that job in 1995. And as I worked there, suddenly the ideas came more. And I had an idea come for an entire trilogy.

You had a little more dead time while you were there. Exactly. It's amazing what you can think about when you're wheat eating and digging graves. Chad wasn't just a writer, but also a publisher. He and his wife of nearly 30 years, Tammy ran Spring Creek Book Company. As a publisher, the genre of choice was non-fiction biographies. Small Wholesaler of the Year Award in 2005 and 2006 at the LDS Book Sellers Convention. And soon we had about 30 authors and had some really big sellers, a lot of nonfiction.

He mostly worked with authors who claim to be visionaries after having near-death experiences. Spring Creek's most popular books were by Julie Rowe. Julie, by the way, is a name I'd suggest you remember. Somebody named Lauren Matias, podcast Hidden True Crime. No longer will I allow you or anyone else to control. or manipulate me. I own my energy. I take back my power. Chad was originally from Utah, and for the first 25 years of their marriage, he and Tammy made their home in the Beehive State. But in the summer of 2015, Chad made the unexpected

decision to move Tammy and their five children ranging from teenager to young adult to Rexburg, a small conservative East Idaho town where most of the population shared his same LDS Faith. It's also home to BYU, Idaho, a private church-owned university. It was a big change from life in the bustling bedroom community of Springville, Utah, and four hours away from Tammy's family. Lori Vallow, on the other hand, had been a cheerleader in high school, and while she was considered attractive fit, and her personality described to me as bubbly, she had been unlucky in love until she met Charles Vallow, a successful businessman who became Lori's fourth husband in 2006. While Lori's previous three marriages had led to divorce fairly quickly, her marriage to Charles seemed

lasting. Both brought two children into their relationship, and they adopted their youngest and fifth child together, a special needs baby boy, born to Charles's nephew, who quickly grew into rambunctious little boy, JJ. The family moved quite a bit from state to state, but Charles made sure it was always someplace warm for his wife as she disliked the cold. In early 2017, they finally settled in Arizona. Lori was also committed to her religion. Charles converted to Mormonism and attended church with her. During their two and a half years living in Hawaii, Lori even served as the primary president in their church congregation. In other words, she was a leader over all of the children at church,

and she was involved in their singing and planned fun activities for them. But it seemed to friends and some family that Lori's religious beliefs started to go beyond the LDS Church's mainstream doctrine. Lori enjoyed reading books about near-death experiences and books encouraging its readers to seek out their own personal visions of Christ. The authors she read included Julie Rowe, that name I mentioned earlier whose books Chad published. as well as books written by a man named Denver Snuffer.

Lori also listened and paid attention to the teachings of Mike Stroud, a man who had taught high school seminary to Mormon youth for decades. But in his retired years, Mike preached personal visions of Christ. How do we come up while in this life, in the fish, see God face to face? traveling in portals after i learned to converse with the lord through the veil he said have i been traveling at night he said yes evil spirits possessing bodies a while ago that was concerned about somebody he knew that was dealing with some dark spirits and becoming one of the 144 thousand spoken up in the book of revelation thor and chad and jason there are people in this room that have full

in the Church of the Firstborn. This group and others like this have been prepared for these very things. There are translated beings among us on the earth. They look like us. Each of these individuals I mentioned, by the way, Julie Rowe, Denver Snuffer, and Mike Stroud have been excommunicated from the LDS Church

for teachings against LDS doctrine. And it wasn't just casual reading and podcast listening. Lori's beliefs in these self-proclaimed visionaries was becoming more intense, and she was attempting to convert those close to her with the same teachings. The Lord is gathering his people.

He is calling people to the 144,000. They're already being called. They're already being sent on their mission. They're already going full circle. The time is now. He is coming. He is preparing us. And we promised we would do it.

Her friend, April Raymond, who went to church with Lori in Hawaii, told me that Lori had given her Denver Snuffer's book, a second comforter, as a gift and told April that it would change her life. She said, why it was the Lord. He was looking at me. It was just the two of us. And I said, congratulations. You've had a second comforter experience.

Lori's older brother, Alex Cox, a name you really need to remember, had been excommunicated from his Mormon faith years prior, but took his sister's advice and started immersing himself in the unique beliefs of portals, possession, controlling the elements, desiring to be translated, and having your own visions. Lori even saying about her brother's conversion to these extreme beliefs on the karaoke app small in November of 2017, seeming to mention both Julie Rowe and Mike Stroud. The lyrics are set to the tune of Leonard Cohen's song, Hallelujah. And while I can't share it on YouTube due to copyright, I'll share the song on our hidden a true crime podcast episode of this same recording if you want to hear it there. Here are some of the lyrics. It started out with Julie Rowe and it turned on the light you know.

And he, meaning Alex, was changed forever in an instant. He knows there is a god above. He surely taught him how to love. And Mike confirms his insights every day now. We believe that's Mike Stroud. According to multiple sources, including family, family, Lori also loved the book, Visions of Glory by John Pontius. Pontius passed away from cancer shortly after his book's publication and remained a member

of the LDS Church at death, but his book too has been controversial. It revolves around a man named Spencer and Spencer's multiple near-death experiences and visions. Pontius interviewed Spencer for his book and declares Spencer's visions as truth. I believe the 10 tribes have great gifts that we don't understand. And Spencer's book, Visions of Glory, he talks about how they can just mold rock. They can take a tree and tell it to be a chair or something like that, and the tree will obey. I found the real Spencer during my research. He's a therapist from Salt Lake City, Utah.

His real name is Tom Harrison. After asking Harrison many questions, he mailed. me a letter he had written to leaders of his LDS congregation in 2014. I read a part of the letter to one of our interviewees named Anna, who also brought up the controversy and prominence of the book Visions of Glory. Here is a snippet from that interview. I don't know that I'd ever heard of portals before Visions of Glory. Okay. And, you know, Mike Stroud started talking about portals. Chad's talked about portals. But yeah, I think it's really influenced people. This book has a hold on a lot of people, including Chad and Lori. And again, I see a lot of

you mentioned portals and I see a lot of possession in this book. Tom sent me something that he wrote in 2014, apologizing for the book. I believe much of it is a metaphor or analogy. And that's all it should be taken as. He then ends with that he holds his membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as his most prized possession, he apologizes for any injury or misunderstanding. This has caused the church, his family, or individual associated with this book. He is so sorry for any offense. This has caused any member. In addition to the extreme religious literature, Lori and her brother Alex were devouring. Around 2016, Lori also started reading those doomsday novels by Chad DeBow.

It seemed only natural that his writings would also. appeal to Lori. And Chad had recently added to his book collection with an autobiography he wrote in 2017. That same year that Lori was singing about Alex's conversion on that karaoke app. And in that book, in that autobiography, Chad shared that he too had had not one but two near-death experiences resulting from cliff jumping into a lake at age 17. And another from a rogue, ocean wave in California. Here is Chad in 2018 speaking at a conference sharing about these near-death experiences. It's exclusively shared on Hidden True Crimes channel.

And it just took forever to hit the water. Just one, two, three. It just kind of flailing. And when I hit, it was like hitting concrete. And I could, it just felt like I broke my neck, honestly. That was my first indication. But what really happened is my body went deeper than my spirit. And so I was like three quarters out of my body.

It's like I came out through my head. And I looked around and it was like a plane of white light. My body and spirit went back together. I later learned it wasn't the best fit. For 30 years, I was good at off. According to Chad, these deathly moments underwater gave him an earthly gift. They caused his celestial veil to rip open, and he could now see into the heavens and receive visions of things to come. Eric Smith, a friend of Chad's in Rexberg,

whose interview you can also hear on our YouTube channel said that Chad could indeed see beyond the veil. Chad is gifted. There is no denying it, okay? And anybody who says otherwise is probably not being truthful with themselves. How is he gifted? He could see and discern things on the other side of the veil. He could see energies. And visions, Chad started claiming. So much so, he was continually being asked to speak at conferences, more on those conferences later.

And he was being asked to participate on a proper website called AVow, or another voice of warning. A vow focused on preparing for future calamity and chaos that the last days would bring, and it's listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center, as an anti-government extremist organization. It was started by a man named Roger K. Young, who sold it to his friend Christopher Perrette in East Idaho. Both Young and Perrette would share personal visions

and conspiracy theories on the website, which included how members of Avow would help members of the LDS Church survive against invaders of other countries in the American West. Perrette wrote on the Avow website, this, I quote. However, it is our belief that very shortly the world and society as we know it will drastically and suddenly change. The time is shortly coming, which has been prophesied and seen in visions and dreams since the world began, end quote. In fact, Roger K. Young, Christopher Perrette,

and Chad Daybell co-authored a book together, dreams, visions, and testimonies of the last days, volume three. And Perrette offered Chad Daybell a platform to share his visions on Avow, even behind a paywall for full paying members. Chad's visions included the establishing of a new Jerusalem in the last days. A vow is also the place where he met Julie Roe, a woman who also claimed to have near-death experiences. In February of 2014, Chad DeBell contacted me off of a prepper site. I was typing about my dreams and visions. At that point, had not, had just barely started to tell people that I actually had a near-death experience. And that was when Chad Daybell started publishing Julie Rose books.

I've had six near-death experiences and lots of out-of-bodied. I came to this planet with the ability to see, hear, fill, and understand the other side of the veil. Several spiritual gifts that I'm not going to get into all of those right now. Everything from being able to see spirits on the other side of the veil or hear them, whether they are of the light of the dark or anything in between. Many of Chad's visions written on a vow or shared in his speeches included stories leading up to the rumored callout, happening just before the apocalypse. The idea of the callout, according to those on a vow, means that the most righteous members

of the LDS faith who have diligently prepared for the second coming of Jesus Christ would be called to the mountains to set up what Chad referred to as white camps, meaning white tents that would house the righteous, a refuge that would provide supplies to righteous families when the tribulations began. While the LDS Church does not teach about any callout in official church meetings, I've dealt into where the belief originated, and my research takes me to avow's founder, Roger Kay Young. I've read Roger Kay Young's book, Dreams. visions and testimonies, Volume 1, where he cites scripture and past LDS church leaders to back up his claims of this alleged callout for the most righteous of preppers. But his sightings of old

ideas out of context, teachings and leaders from the past make it clear to me that the callout begins with Yang, his books and the teachings that become the origin of a vow. Here are two interviews, a once-a-vow member, Anna, and Suzanne Freeman, a once friend of Chad Daybells, discussing the call-out. And again, both of these interviews are found in full on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. Were you a member of a vow, too? Short, short time. I was on there, and it's just pettiness. One person posted, I can't wait for the call-out, and I'm rolling my eyes. I'm like, you serious? You really think the call-it's going to be that great?

It's living in a tent. Hardly having any of running. water? People fighting over their food storage? I just, I just didn't. That is interesting. Someone said they couldn't wait almost as if they were prepared and felt special, maybe. I think they, I think that's what it was. I think they felt they were more special because they were more prepared that they, their eyes were open. They're open to spirituality and they're open to being prepared. And so when the call out happens, they're going to listen to. to the profit. It's some private belief that they had, but they didn't share it with, you know, their bishop and their, you know, Relief Society president and people in their ward. That was something

that was like, I can get online and I can talk to all my buddies on PTC or on a vow and I can share what I really believe and my dreams and my visions, but I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to share this with people in my ward. Chad would sell his books through a vow. Chad would promote Christopher in a vow and give a vow credibility. And so Christopher, you know, he's got 10,000 people who are on a vow and he's making, you know, 40, 50 year. You know, this is quite lucrative for both of them, right? Right. And then it's lucrative for Julie because, you know, she's promoted on a vow. She's promoted by Chad and she promotes Chad and she promotes a vow. Chad has some of his own spiritual gifts. He is also visionary. I would, I don't say this in a

raggy way, but my gifts are more expensive than his. Back to Chad's visions commonly shared on a vow. They included end-of-time's doomsday scenarios, eerily similar to the supposedly fictional characters in his earlier apocalyptic novels that were being read by Lori Vallow. The Celestial City, Volume 2, covers from when they leave the mountains to when they travel to Missouri to establish New Jerusalem. and the third volume is the one that covers a greater period of time where new Jerusalem is built,

the ten tribes return, and the new Jerusalem temple is completed. The fourth volume, The Keys of the Kingdom, begins about three years before the second coming, and that's where you meet some other characters, some evil villains who, in the final volume, which just came out, covers those last four months before the last four months before the the second coming and actually stretches into the millennium. I think, like you said before, you wrote it for your family, for people who are not going to pick up a nonfiction book of prophecy to build a story around a possible solution to those prophecies.

It's just possible. It's fiction, but it certainly makes you think. And Chad soon also began to stop calling his fictional novels fiction. All of a sudden, they were true. and Tammy had moved up to Idaho by this time. So they moved up there, I think, in the summer of 2015. Julie Rowe came up to Rexburg. So what happened was Garth was saying, oh my gosh, he said, I learned so much this weekend. He said, Julie came and stayed with us. And I learned that my dad, all his books that he wrote this whole time growing up, I thought they were all just stories, just fiction.

And he said, this weekend, I learned that they were all true, that everything in those books were from dreams and visions that he has had, and I never knew that. At the time when I wrote it, I'd worked at a publishing company and we've done a couple of near-death books, and Desartesart book that rejected them and just kind of had some controversy about him. And so I felt inspired that it should be written fictually.

I didn't just not tell anybody about it. I just put it out there. And it's so good really well. And so we did a couple follow-ups. The great gathering starts right as there's an earthquake in Utah in Salt Lake Valley. And you follow some of the families go to the camp. Some of them don't. And if you see the outcome of that.

Despite Lori and Chad having some mutual friends and shared mutual beliefs, it wasn't until October 2018 when Chad Daybell and Lori, Vallow officially met while at a doomsday style conference in St. George, Utah, where attendees spoke of their visions and dreams. Chad was also a main speaker. In fact, those little snippets you just heard are from Chad's speech at that very event. Evidence released in Hidden True Crime's public records requests, including texts from Chad to Lori, and shared on our Patreon account, include the claim that Chad was watching Lori during this speech, and that he believed she was the only one listening intently to his every word.

This conference was not sponsored by the LDS Church, but rather was a group of like-minded Mormons preparing for the last days. Some of the speakers and attendees were also forming beliefs that were not consistent with the modern teachings of the mainstream LDS Church. The group, preparing a people, ran by Mike and Nancy James, also focused on dreams. and visions, just like the Avat website. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every

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While the modern LDS Church does not adhere to any belief in multiple lives, Chad Daybilt was one of the many preparing a people attendees who preached this belief in multiple probations. In fact, when he first met Lori Vallow at that event, he says in text to her that he was immediately attracted to her. She came over to his booth the day before his big speech, and as he was signing books, he told her that they had been married in a past life. Lori, a petite blonde who Chad said was the most perfect woman he had ever seen, a goddess, seemed to quickly accept this idea of once being his wife in another probation. Chad was James the last in a past probation, he told her, and Lori Vallow had been his wife, Elena.

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And just two days after they met at that conference, Chad emailed Lori about some of his additional beliefs. You see, Chad wasn't just a visionary. He explained to Lori, he had the power to discern who was light and who was dark. Or in other words, who was good and who was evil. In the email, what she states is the information that Lori requested, he labels each person, person in Lori's family as either light or dark. While Lori's two sons, Colby and JJ, and her husband Charles Vallow, were all deemed light, Lori's teenage daughter, Tiley, according to Chad, was dark. And this was just the beginning. It didn't take long for others in Lori's life to also start to turn dark. Melanie Gibb, another name I would recommend you remember

in all of this, was there in Arizona with her best friend Lori. when Chad allegedly called Lori and told her that Charles Vallow, Lori's husband, was now a zombie. Yes, a zombie inhabited by a dark spirit named Ned Schneider. Here is Melanie explaining this in a police interview. So it was in January sometime. Okay. Yeah, and she was on the phone with Chad.

Okay. And I was in her house. And I remember even just like where she was when she told me, how you remember the spots. remember she was like in her back door coming in. She went out and talked to him probably outside and I wasn't listening to that. And then she came back in and she,

I knew she was talking to him. So she was kind of going back and forth. And then she got the phone and told me about him and what, well, told me what Chad said, which was he became an Nets minor person. Melanie, a fellow avow member who also attended preparing a people conferences, also seemingly trusted Chad.

I mean, she'd known him even longer than she had known Lori. He even agreed to write the forward in Melanie's memoir titled Feel the Fire. And in an email to hidden true crime from someone who knows Chad, they claim Chad had his sights set on Melanie Gibb until the fateful day that Chad met her best friend, Lori. The two girlfriends, Melanie and Lori, processed what Chad was telling them about Charles Valo no longer being Charles. Exorcisms or castings took place with like-minded friends in Arizona, to fix this zombie problem.

Melanie Gibb, as well as a woman named Dulema, were two of those friends who participated in attempting to release Ned from Charles's body. What the idea is is to get, if there is an evil spirit in you, then you ask in the name of Christ that that evil spirit leave. That's what it's about. Okay.

But she's lost her mind. I have to say it. We're LDS. She thinks she's a resurrected being. While Charles was aware and concerned that Lori was calling him Ned and claiming he was a zombie, he was unaware of these strange gatherings taking place, these castings.

My bishop right there is in the car. He was on the phone with me today when she said, I will have you destroyed. That's what she said there. Okay, that's not a threat to kill you. Yesterday was a threat to kill me. What did she say yesterday? She said,

you're not Charles. I don't know who you are, what you did with Charles, but I can murder you now with my powers. Okay. Okay. All right. I'm going to kill you too. I'm going to, yesterday. So she's speaking as a spiritual being. And these private exorcisms were not working. Chad continually explained that Ned remained in Charles's body, that the spirit was breaking eternal law by remaining inside Charles. And once Ned was finally removed, it didn't even matter because a more advanced evil spirit entered by the name of Iplos, and in the end, there seemed to be only one option left, an option that seemed to be the beginning of a killing spree across states. To protect her from the dark spirit named Ned that inhabited her husband Charles,

Lori allegedly recruited her older brother Alex Cox to spend the night at Lori's house in Arizona on July 10, 2019. Charles, who was currently separated from his wife due to her growing radical beliefs and frightening accusations of him being a zombie, showed up in the morning on July 11, 2019, to take their son JJ to school. But Charles never did take JJ to school that morning. Rather, he was killed within minutes, shot twice by Alex. And according to the brother and sister duo, they told police that Charles was shot in self-defense. Alex was protecting his sister from her husband who had turned violent. Never mind, the Lori left the scene of the shooting with JJ and Tiley and purchased flip-flops and breakfast at Burger

King before returning to talk to police. Never mind that Alex waited 45 minutes to even call 911 after the shooting and that first responders could tell that CPR wasn't performed, despite Alex telling the 911 operator he did perform it. Never mind that at least one bullet entered Charles' body while he was laying on the floor. And never mind that Lori made light of the situation when she returned to the scene this recording on police body camp footage. Gotcha. Like, hi, neighbor, sorry. After police interviews, Lori and Alex walked out free to continue their day. But two years later,

and perhaps two years too late, charges did finally come in Charles' death. In the probable cause statement from Arizona charging Lori with conspiring to kill Charles. It states after Charles was shot and killed that Zulema texted a friend named Julie Clements that it was a, in quotes,

Nephi and Laban ending, end quote. This refers to a story in the book of Mormon where an ancient prophet named Nephi killed another man in the name of God and righteousness. Shortly after Charles was killed in August,

2019. Lorry moved 900 miles north to the cold climate of Rexberg, saying goodbye to her eldest son Colby, who was recently married and a new dad. Lorry brought JJ with her and Tiley also made the move. The 16-year-old was close to her mom and little brother, and she texted a friend that she was moving to attend BYU, Idaho. Her uncle Alex also moved. By all accounts, he seemed a true believer in Chad's visions and a believer that he really was his sister, Lori's protector. Chad even declared Alex a protector of Lori in a patriarchal blessing in November 2019. Opening up the portals of time and going back to your previous creations on which you've lived, I see you on the third creations of valiant warrior fighting for

truth and righteousness, always seeking to do what is right. Progressed and were selected by the Savior and himself to be part of the fourth creation. Great warriors were needed. In that creation, powerful goddesses were needed to be protected and you were selected to help protect your sister. Numerous probations is a defender. One other person also moved to and that was Melanie Boudreau-Pelowsky, a niece of Lori Vallows. We'll get to her in a minute. But two weeks after the big move to Idaho, on September 18, 2019, Tiley was last seen on a nearby trip to Yellowstone National Park with her mom, her uncle Alex and JJ. The photo from that day show smiles from Alex and Lori

while Tiley wraps her arms around her little brother. Her smile is not so big, not as carefree as the adults that surround her. Melanie Gibb later recalled Lori calling Tiley a zombie during a phone call with Lori and overhearing Tiley respond,

no mom, not me. Melanie relays this story to an acquaintance, Sherry, who recorded the conversation. So she's told to move up to Rexburg, the Lord tells her move it to Rexburg now. She takes Tiley and JJ with her. Tiley and J.J. are up there.

I know she's up there with both of them because I can hear them on the phone in the background while she's packing and moving in. So she knew Tiley was alive at that point. But then she said that Lori had said that she was a zombie over the phone. And she told me already that Charles was a zombie. So I'm just like, I was just like shocked. I'm like, oh my gosh. and she's like, and she said,

Tiley's in the background, not me, mom, that she heard her say that when Lori told her over the phone that she was a zombie now. JJ's there and she tells me he's a zombie now. Oh my goodness. And so was Tiley.

Oh, no. Yeah, so people have had her zombies, they don't end up staying alive. She'd probably see the pot of him. And then, two weeks after the Yellowstone trip where Tiley was last seen, seven-year-old JJ disappeared. Melanie Gibb and her boy,

friend David Warwick were some of the last witnesses to see him. They were visiting Lori at her Rexburg townhouse to record a fill the fire podcast and attend a conference called the Firm Expo. David watched Alex carry the sleeping boy upstairs to Lori's bedroom as they recorded the podcast that night. Gibb later recalled that during her visit, Lori told her that she suspected JJ was indeed a zombie. And Melanie told police that David had a terrible nightmare in the middle of the night that night while sleeping next to his girlfriend, Melanie Gibb. Gibb states that she was so scared, she ran to Lori's room to knock. His whole body was under distress. When he has dreams, they're like lifetime dreams. You know, some people dream vividly. I do not dream like that.

He has incredible dreams where he feels everything in his dream. So, It affects them at a totally different level. Okay. Oh, my gosh, maybe some evil spirit, because, you know, they were always talking about it. So I text Lori, and I text Chad. I'm like, I don't remember what I said. Probably are you awake or something wrong chat. I mean, David, I don't remember what I said.

I just remember trying to get to them. So I said, I'm going to go get Lori, see if she can help out. The door was locked. And I did actually, I think I tried calling her to and texting her. and I think Chad, I think I tried calling him. I thought maybe he could help out. Neither one of them responded to me. The next morning, when Melanie Gibb and David Warwick

left Rexburg on September 22nd, 2019, JJ was nowhere to be found. And Gibb told police that Lori explained to her that JJ had been possessed, crawling on top of cabinets above the fridge and knocking down a picture of Jesus. JJ's biological grandparents, Kay and Larry Woodcock, from Louisiana could not get a hold of their youngest grandson. Kay was also Charles Vallow's sister,

and one of the reasons Lori and Chad had been eager to adopt JJ when he was just a toddler. The little boy was already family, and Kay and Larry had had custody of JJ before the adoption. It had made sense to the Woodcock to give JJ's siblings and a comfortable home that they felt was safe and happy with Kay's brother, Charles, and his wife, Lori. But since Charles had been killed in July, July, all communication with Kay and Larry's sister-in-law Lori and their little man, as the Woodcocks called JJ, had ceased. Back in July, they were shocked to learn Charles had been killed by Alex Cox, and they were certain it could not be self-defense. Charles just wasn't a violent man, they thought. Not only that, but Kay had received Charles's life insurance money. Why? Well,

because Charles had told his sister, Kay, if something happens to him, it was Lori or Alex. He had implied to Kay that Laurie didn't want JJ anymore and that Charles wanted Kay and Larry to have money to support and raise JJ the Woodcock's biological grandson. It wasn't long before his death that Charles had changed his life insurance policy from Lori to Kay Woodcock, but he never did tell Lori. The Woodcock's traveled to Arizona from Louisiana demanding answers. Well, Charles Bellow is my brother. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one. one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.com slash remove. I don't know where to start with all this because this is crazy. We flew in as, I mean, this morning early, early. So we could be here. Charles was one of the kindest guys you ever met. You ever wanted to meet. And he was the kind of guy that you wanted to be friends with. This is a setup.

But Kay and Larry were also discovering so much more than they had imagined, a seemingly strange cult that their sister-in-law Lori seemed to be involved in. The Woodcocks were also communicating with Brandon Boudreau, nearby in Gilbert, Arizona. Brandon, so are you ready for this? Pay attention. Brandon was Lori's niece's estranged husband. Brandon's wife, also named Melanie, had left Brandon, and. and her children and had also moved to Idaho to be with Lori and Alex.

Brandon cited his wife Melanie Boudreau's strange belief, her loyalty to her Aunt Lori, his knowledge of Chad Daybill, and Brandon and the Woodcock's willingly exchanged notes while trying to find their grandson, Brandon's nephew, and to find out where Lori was living. Now, to keep everyone's names straight here,

because keeping all of these names straight is important, Melan niece is Lori's niece and ex-wife to Brandon Boudreau, while Melanie Gibb is Lori's best friend. Just before Melanie niece and Brandon's divorce was finalized on the morning of October 2, 2019, about a week and a half after JJ was last seen, Brandon was driving home after dropping his kids off at school and daycare. As he pulled into his driveway, a bullet came flying through his Tesla's window. Stay with you. I'm going to search around the perimeter house. make sure nobody broke into your house.

And then if it's okay with you, you do mind if we go in? Just to make sure there's nobody in there or anything like that. Police now believe the single shot was fired by Alex Cox from a Jeep Wrangler that was registered to the deceased Charles Vallow. Brandon had escaped death by inches. He took his children and with the help of trusted friends and family went into hiding. While his wife, 900 miles away in Rexburg, claimed on social media that Brandon had kidnapped her children. Two weeks after Brandon's shooting incident, Brandon called Kay Woodcock. He was frantic.

I just learned Tammy Daybell. Chad's wife has died, he told Kay. The 911 call came in about 49-year-old Tammy Daybell's death on October 19, 2019. On that day, Lori was out of town in Hawaii. Chad was home and made the 911 call. Um, she's clearly dead. I'm so sorry. Okay. And police documents now show that Alex's phone pinged from a parking lot of a nearby church that previous night. According to Chad, his Zumba loving wife of 29 years, mother to his five adult children, had passed in her sleep.

No autopsy was performed. It was deemed natural. And she was buried three days later in her hometown of Springville, Utah. But evidence does what it always does when law enforcement starts investigating, showing us so much more. Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck. I'm confused. With family, canoles and spins mean everything. Now, you want to get mixed up in the family business.

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Minimum monthly payments required. Minimum purchase required. See store for details. Tex, between Chad and Lori just before Tammy's death, show Chad explaining that Tammy had become a zombie possessed by a spirit named Viola. Well, how did she die? She goes, well, we just had to do what we could to take her out of her spirit. Something like that. Uh-huh. She said that Tammy had gotten before, right before they killed her, a couple weeks before they killed her, that she was starting to question and thought that there's something going on between her and Chad Daygo. That's what Melinda Gibbs says on this conversation. And I call her in Hawaii and I say, hey, guess what?

Do you know, Tammy just died. Do you know this? And she goes, no, I haven't heard it yet. And then I said, well, what happened? What happened to Tammy? and she goes, well, she was a zombie two weeks before she died. I was like, really? She goes, yeah, she was starting to question our relationship.

She was wondering if he was having an affair. I said, oh. On November 5th, exactly 14 days after Tammy was buried, Chad and Lori smiled for wedding photos on a Hawaiian beach, ukulean hand, while Lori danced and they giggled for the camera. And all the while, back in the mainland, Kay and Larry Woodcock continued to pursue answers, begged for answers.

And once Kay discovered Lori's Rexberg address, after logging into Charles' Amazon account, where it appeared Lori had purchased a wedding ring right before Tammy's death, she called Rexberg Police to request a welfare check at that address. By this time, Lori and Chad had returned to the frigid temps of eastern Idaho. And when police knocked on Lori's townhouse door

on November 26, 2019, she answered. At this time, she was now Mrs. Lori Daybell, but she pretended to hardly know chat, only saying that he was her brother's friend. She told police Tiley was attending BYU, Idaho, and that JJ was in Arizona with her friend Melanie Gibb. So who's the friend he's with? My friend Melanie.

Her son has autism. them. Her name was Melanie Giff. I gave him all the information. I went to phone. Okay, so he can call him. Yeah. What is all this? We're a little concerned because, well, the officers we were here earlier. Yeah. We're checking and they got a bad vibe that, like, something was going on here because nobody knew anything about a child. They want to talk in. It's because a lot of stuff that was gone on. If you're on, no, it's a lot of stuff. well that's why we're concerned because it just was kind of weird it is very weird

I've had to move around a lot when my brothers is trying to kill me not the brother that was here obviously he's kind of my protector my other brothers that was in with my husband who was trying to kill me for my two-lind dollar life insurance well no no Melanie Gibb covered for Lori and Chad that day telling police that jj had indeed been with her but was on his way back to Idaho But the truth was, JJ and Tiley, they were both missing. The day after Thanksgiving, 2019, a knock on Lori's townhouse door came again. This time, police had a search warrant, but Lori and Chad were gone, nowhere to be found.

The media announced the missing children in December 2019. In a press release, Rexburg police requested the public's help in finding the newly married Chad and Lori, as well as help finding JJ and Tiley that they believed were in danger. The Woodcocks spoke out, sharing their story, their fear, their hope, their ache to find the children. While the children were not found, it did not take police long to discover Lori and Chad staying in a gated community near the beaches of Kauai in Hawaii. An arrest warrant for Lori was issued for not producing her children. and after Hawaii law enforcement arrested her, she was extradited back to Idaho,

and her new husband, Chad, attended her court hearings while asking his neighbors and church members to mortgage their homes to help her post bail. It was all a misunderstanding, Chad told family and friends. He told them that it was a horrendous custody battle, started by Kay and Larry Woodcock, who were trying to kidnap Lori's children. Of course, though, he told others, like his parents, that Lori was an empty nester and that her daughter had died a year ago. His stories varied. While some sounded the alarm on Chad's radical beliefs, including his brother Matt and his sister-in-law, Heather, also both residents of Rexburg.

Many defended Chad. I do know that my angels tell me that Chad Davel is being falsely accused of of a suspicious death of his wife. And continued to defend him, including Christopher Perrette on the Eval website. They believed the media was lying, and so many were certain the children were hidden in a bunker somewhere.

The kids are safe. Including those in Laurie's inner circle and her family. Hope was crushed when remains were discovered by law enforcement on June 9, 2020. The brother and sister had been buried in Chadd,

Daybell's yard. Tiley's body was mutilated, burned, and dismembered. Jay J.J.'s body had been wrapped, head-to-toe in duct tape. He was still wearing the very same pajamas he was last seen in, and still in an overnight pull-up diaper. Alex Cox's phone had pinged on Chad Daybell's property on the days law enforcement believed the children were killed and buried. Alex would hold so many answers, and yet he too died suddenly on December 12, 2019, at the home of Zulema Pestanis in Arizona. The two had eloped Zulema and Alex just two weeks earlier in Las Vegas, Nevada. Alex died before the children were found, but not before Tammy Daybell's body was exhumed from the Springville Cemetery for further analysis. This happened. Tammy Daybell's body

being exhumed less than 24 hours before Alex's death. And it would be the beginning of an investigation that would extend into years and stretch over several states. Chad Daybell gave Alex that patriarchal blessing we mentioned earlier a few weeks before Alex's death. Chad told Alex then in that blessing that Alex had accomplished many tasks already and that Alex would know when it was time to go to the other side. The second coming approaches, you will know when it's time to move to the other side.

This body that has served you well will lay down one day. You'll pass your spirit will leave this body. You'll be greeted wholeheartedly and welcomed by the Savior himself. The day that Alex died, Chad gave Alex another blessing over the phone. We don't know what he said, but Alex passed a few hours later. Despite the odd circumstances surrounding his passing, Alex's death was deemed natural, a pulmonary embolism, or lung clot. Lori's trial is now being held in Boise, Idaho at the Ada County Courthouse. Lori faces judge and jurors.

She's charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy in the deaths of her children. children, JJ and Tiley, as well as charges of conspiracy in the death of Tammy Daybell. She is also charged with financial crimes. Police say she continually collected social security checks on her children after they were both killed and buried in Chad's yard. We'll play the week's full audio, hearing from Brandon Boudreau, Kay Woodcock, Melanie Gibbs, Ulema, and a heartbreaking testimony from Detective Ray Hermosio who uncovered the children's remains. This first week in court covered zombies, castings, and exorcisms.

Charles' death in Arizona, strange beliefs about multiple probation and even portals. We learned more of these unique religious conferences where the inner circle met and of Chad's light and dark rating scale and his ability to see beyond the veil. He could see and discern things on the other side of the veil. He could see energies. Join with us as John and. and I continue the Beyond the Vail series that began in its humble origins at our dinner table nearly three years ago. Join with us as we continue our investigation into the Chad Dayball and Lori Vallow case. And as we delve into the darkest recesses of the hidden mind, our unconscious

motivations and human behaviors that lie hidden. It's the Ashley President's Day sale going on now. Right now you can feel the freedom to save up to 1,000. on select mattresses. Plus, you can snooze now, pay later with up to 60 months special financing. And for a limited time, receive a $300 coupon with the purchase of a premium mattress. Customizing your sleep has never been easier. Hurry in and start saving today. Only at Ashley in North Charleston and Mount Pleasant. Subject to credit approval. Minimum monthly payments required. Minimum purchase required. See store for details. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan.

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