Hidden True Crime - Beyond the Veil: When Chad Met Lori and the Dream of Immortality

Episode Date: November 20, 2020

Join us for an in-depth dinner conversation about death anxiety, terror management theory and Chad’s desire to achieve immortality. We dig as deep as we can into Chad Daybell’s psyche and start to put all of the pieces together to develop a comprehensive psychological portrait of how and why these murders occurred. When Chad met Lori a seemingly inescapable cascade of events and psychological elements began to unfold that ended in multiple murders. Join us to discover why. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and as I worked there, suddenly the ideas came more. You had a little more dead time while you were there. Exactly, yeah. It's amazing what you can think about when you're wheat eating and being graves. We started our last podcast with this statement from chat as well. it's from a 2011 interview. Before we begin this episode, if you have not yet listened to episode 11,

Beyond the Vale, revisiting Chad, and a tribute to Tammy Daybell, we recommend that you do that first before continuing here. We recorded this all in one night, and I think that everything we're about to say will make much more sense if you first listen to episode 11.

Let's begin. Chad Daybell and his work as a cemetery sexton. Around 1993, Chad takes a job working as a cemetery sexton. He works in the cemetery for most of the 90s. He returns to becoming a cemetery sexton again in the late 2000s. In other words, Chad spent most of his adult life working in and around cemeteries. If you ask me to identify one of the most important variables in this entire case, it would be this. It would be Chad's professional life working in and around dead bodies for many, many years.

Initially, in our first episode, I brought up what it's called terror management theory. Terror management theory is a psychological theory supported by now thousands of research studies, which essentially says that death anxiety, which is prompted either overtly or sublimity. with research subjects. Death anxiety leads to a couple of things. Number one, we become more entrenched in our worldviews when we're exposed to thoughts of death. Or two, we become more likely to bolster our self-esteem when we're exposed to thoughts of death. I think it's interesting to look at this in terms of Chad Daybell.

Because Chad was around death day in and day out, it's unavoidable that no matter how hard he tried, that he would experience death anxiety. It would have been overwhelming. It would be hard for even the healthiest people to avoid experiencing death anxiety if you're working in a cemetery for decades. But for Chad, the consequence of this, the consequence of working in the cemetery for so long

for such a large part of his adult life that his religious views become more extreme. So by 1999, when he starts writing his books, he's already experiencing tremendous amounts of death anxiety. So by the time he starts writing, this is one way he has of coping with it. This becomes a defense mechanism. His books become the expression of his avoidance of death anxiety. This is a classic example of terror management theory.

And not only that, his self-esteem comes into play. He's trying to bolster his self-esteem by claiming he's a prophet. He writes these books. He's using the books now, in addition to his near-death experiences, as proof that he's a deity, as proof that he can see beyond the veil. So when he writes his books, and he gets out on the circuit

with some of these extreme groups like a vow or preparing the people, and he's becoming a bit of a celebrity, he's going deeper and deeper into this notion that he's a prophet. And I believe a lot of this is prompted by death anxiety, by the fact that this man is working in a cemetery. He's not a very healthy human being.

We know he's somewhat narcissistic. He can't deal with his emotions anyway, and now we're throwing him into an environment that's nearly impossible for him to handle. Terror management theory explains a great portion of Chad Daybell's issues, and I believe it explains a large portion of Chad Daybell's later extremist beliefs and post-apocalyptic visions and his claims to being a profit. I want you guys to listen to one of my favorite psychological studies of all time, what is referred to as the hot sauce study. I'm going to have you listen to Jeff Greenberg. He's one of the originators of terror management theory, and he'll explain some of the research behind the hot sauce study, which is one of the

first studies in terror management theory. Partly because we thought this can help explain real world prejudice and aggression against different others. But it was inspired by real incidents in which people have used hot sauce to physically attack other people. There was a case where a cook was angry at police and spiked a couple of cops food with hot sauce. More significant and less humorous, there are numerous cases in which parents have used hot sauce to punish their children, which is a form of child abuse. But in the lab, what we thought we might be able to do is at least get some indication of an intention to hurt someone else simply because you've been reminded of your own death and they're threatening an aspect of your will view. In this paradigm, the subjects come in and they're told that the study concerns personality and food preferences.

subjects were once again given a set of supposed personality questionnaires. Some included the death reminder and others did not. Then in what subjects were told was an unrelated study, they were asked to a lot a variable amount of extremely hot sauce for a participant of dissimilar political background to taste and rate. Those who had received death reminders prescribed more than twice the amount of hot sauce as those who did not receive the death reminders. This has profound implications.

These studies show that reminders of death play an influential role in the human psyche and can inspire us to act aggressively. While hot sauce itself might seem benign, the implications of these studies are frightening. What happens when the means of aggression is not hot sauce, but rather are gone or another weapon? The reason why this study is so important is because it's the first. first study directly linking death anxiety to actual behaviors in the real world. In other words, in the study, when the subjects seek to harm people through having them ingest more hot sauce that would be normally suggested, you see a direct link between death anxiety and the

willingness to harm others in the real world. Let me just quickly read one of the conclusions from the hot sauce study from 1998. The title of the study is, Terror Management and Aggression, evidence that mortality salience motivates aggression against worldview threatening others. What the authors say is, quote, taken together, these four studies indicate that mortality salience motivates aggression against those who threaten one's worldview. Thus, these studies provide the first empirical

evidence consistent with the idea that mortality concerns contribute to the historically all too common phenomenon of aggression between those who have different views of the world. Here's Merlin Maori, a professor of philosophy and religion at Central Michigan University. It is an opportunity to confront death and to escape it while inflicting it on someone else. Let's start tying some of these pieces together with Chad Daybell. The first strand I want to pursue, it goes through the near-deathic experiences of 1985 and 1993. It goes through Chad's mission in 1987 when he started developing

a system of light and dark, and it goes through his books, which begin in 1999 and continue until 2018. This first strand of thought involves what I would call Chad's divine inspiration. The important point of this strand of thought is that Chad can see beyond the veil. He has these visions that no one else has. These make him special. These give him special powers. He's able to enact these powers by sensing evil spirits and judging people as either good or evil. The second strand of thought that I want to develop involves Chad's need for significance.

And this develops the idea of Chad's narcissism and his. desire to feel important and significant and meaningful and special. We see this during his childhood with the top 40 hits. We see this with Chad's involvement with NFL players during his publishing period. We see it in particular with Chad's books and his publishing. What's interesting about the second strand is there's countervailing forces pushing against the strand. There's the fact that his publishing business went broke in 2008, roughly. There's the fact that he's getting older, and he's not getting the recognition he wants.

There's the element of failing to be called as a bishop. This is a big blow for Chad Debo. I have always suspected he had Bishop M.B., meaning he's disappointed that he's not being seen for the leader he is, and we have had that confirmed from other people that, yes, he felt he deserved to be called as a bishop of a congregation. that's the head over just a congregation. So not only is he not being called as an apostle,

he's not being called as a simple leader of a congregation that he resides in. This must have been really frustrating to Chad Daybell. And behind all of this, you have huge amounts of death anxiety. You have someone who's getting older and not getting the recognition he needs, that he feels he needs quickly. There's also the fact of the church, neglecting his role as a special person in the church, as a potential profit. These forces that counteract Chad's desire to feel special

are particularly significant, I think, because the commonality between these two elements are his books. I think that Chad perceived these books to be revelation of sorts, that I really believe that at some point, Chad was probably willing to say that his books were on a par with the actual book of Mormon or other biblical writings. I think in the beginning, Chad was calling them fiction because he really had no other choice.

His hubris would have been so overwhelming that his books would have been immediately rejected. This is an interview with Chad back in 2011, so nine years ago. Chad talking about his book series and what they mean. The Celestial City, Volume 2, covers from when they leave the mountains to when they travel to Missouri. to establish New Jerusalem. And the third volume is the one that covers a greater period of time

where New Jerusalem is built, the Ten Tribes Return, and the New Jerusalem Temple is completed. The fourth volume, The Keys of the Kingdom, begins about three years before the Second Coming. And that's where you meet some other characters, some evil villains who will conquer the world. And so it ties it all. together, make sure the people who live today can understand what it's going to be like.

I agree with you that Chad believed his books were revelation. In the LDS faith, there is a belief in continuing revelation from God. Modern day scripture is still written by the prophet and apostles in the LDS faith. For example, the doctrine and covenants is a book of LDS scripture, its visions and revelations that were received by Joseph Smith in the 1800s. And today still, the prophet and the apostles' words can be considered Scripture. So with this in mind, it's not far-fetched that Chad would understand this church doctrine and decide his books could also be considered scripture. It seems like one of the implications of this viewpoint is that when people disagree with the church,

they believe there's a certain amount of freedom to start their own variant of the mainstream church's teachings. You know, there are a lot of break-off groups among the LDS Church. We hear about people like Warren Jeffs, who was the leader in the F-LDS Church, they're polygamous in that church, and there was modern-day scripture written where the LDS Church decided they no longer practice polygamy. And you're absolutely right. When that modern day revelation happened, the people who disagreed with that

went and started their own church. So here comes Warren Jeff's. This is a unique situation that the LDS Church faces. The church is caught in the uncomfortable position of recognizing that doctrines are malleable, but also attempting to preserve and to reinforce the old beliefs and doctrines.

One way they do that is to make it very clear that the only people who have authority to speak for the entire church from God is the prophet and the apostles, which is why I think there's such a focus on following the prophet, listening to the prophet so that you don't go astray. And now I'm laughing because that's literally a primary song I learned growing up. follow the prophet, don't go astray, because there are people like Chad Daybell that decide, I can receive revelation, I can receive scripture. We've mentioned Chad's train dream before. It was originally posted on the Avow website.

Avow is a prepper group that Chad was very involved with. The train dream written by Chad implies that the LDS prophet would not have all the answers in these last days, that there would instead be witnesses to provide truth to the LDS church members. A quote from that dream, the prophetic word would be pulled back for a time as other witnesses come forth to testify of these truth. End quote. Chad then suggests he is one of those witnesses along with Julie Rowe and other LDS authors.

But, you know, it's interesting because you did just say that Chad Daybill didn't always say his books were truth or revelation or visions, which I agree with you. He didn't listen to him in this 2011 interview, respond to the interviewer, what he says about his books. You know, New Jerusalem, we hear about that, but what does that really mean? You know, and so this gives an opportunity to take at least a possible solution to those prophecies. It's just possible. It's fiction, but it certainly makes you think. If you look at this closely, these aren't works of fiction at all. I think Chad just initially didn't have the hubris to come forward and say, this is revelation.

These should be church doctrine at some point. I think Chad truly believed that. You know, that actually makes sense. I spoke to a New York Times bestselling author, Robeson Wells. He is also an LDS author, and he has written LDS books. And he started the Whitney Awards. awards given to LDS authors like Chad Daybell. He had a professional relationship with Chad and Tammy.

He considered Tammy a friend after they got to know each other through that professional relationship. He spoke to Chad a few times and this is his perception of Chad and what Chad thought about his books. I knew that he took it seriously. It wasn't to him. I don't think he was happy that we categorized it as speculative fiction. And I know that he wasn't too happy about that. My interactions with Chad were always pleasant, but very serious.

And so when you take these two forces and you put them together, the struggles of his publishing business in 2008 are particularly significant. because if he sees these books as revelation as coming from the Word of God, which he says openly many times, even though he's calling them fiction, then that desire for significance and recognition in the church takes a really hard blow when his publishing empire is threatened. But when the economy went in the tank in 2008, we had to drastically reduce our company to a part-time operation. Oh, I see. And so Spring Creek books still there. You published your volume five is Spring Creek books. We still publish.

But you're not doing your own, your distribution now. Right. We've changed that to a distributor, bringing to distributing, which has worked out very well for us. But so suddenly I needed a job to pay the benefits for the family and everything. So you have this event in 2008. And Chad goes back to work in a cemetery. Again, I've talked about the significance of that. One of the things I want to bring in when I'm talking about that, I've talked about terror management theory and its relationship to the cemetery, but I want to bring in this idea of what Michael Egan, who's also a psychologist, is called psychic deadness. Psychic deadness is, I think, a really important way to conceptualize Chad Daybell's mental state.

Eagin's idea, essentially, is in order to avoid feeling vulnerable or shame or weak, we develop this deadness. inside. If we've struggled with emotions, and I've already talked about this in the Daebel family, the inability to really deal with emotional closeness in the family. It seems like a normal response here for Chad to develop this sense of psychic deadness. In some ways, it's a really interesting parallel or mirror of the fact that he's working in the cemetery. He's around deadness all the time. He works largely alone and by himself. And so, the cemetery, mimics his internal state. The cemetery actually becomes the type of deadness

that Chad feels inside. And the reason this is really important is because one of the responses to this feeling of psychic deadness is that we want to feel some sense of aliveness. And the way Chad does this is through his writing. He creates these action-packed fictional worlds that involve apocalypses

and foreign invaders and portals. Portals. There's all this stuff going on, which is the exact opposite of Chad Dayball's life. Chad Daybo leaves a really boring life. He works in a cemetery. He does virtually nothing all day. We know this from talking to several people who say

one of the appeals of working in a cemetery for Chad was the fact that he worked alone. Yeah, it's amazing what you can think about when you're weed eating and digging graves. And so I think you see this in jambore. Chad. There's this like emptiness. You see this emptiness in Chad. There's this void. This is what I can call psychic deadness. The issue here is if that's what Chad is feeling, then his books become a way to counteract that. And so does Lori. Let me continue with this strand of thought.

That Chad is struggling with his publishing business, which means everything to him. And then in 2014, he meets Julie Roe. Julie Roe begins to bring Chad back to life a little bit. And it also brings his publishing business back to life. Speaking of Julie Row, we have 23 minutes of recent Julie Roe video from her day-long workshop in Salt Lake City. The workshop was on October 24th. You can head to YouTube's Hidden True Crime Channel and see some of the video from that workshop. Julie Roe spoke about portals, the second coming and many of her beliefs feel similar to Chad Daybells. Julie Roe is a really important seed in the Chad Daybell story because it's with her that he

starts conceptualizing this other phase of life. It's with her that he begins to fantasize about bringing in the ideal woman who's going to be his counterpart in the New Jerusalem. This, by the way, is something he's thought about for a long time through his book. And now with Julie Roe, I think he's starting to move away from the idea of an eternal marriage to Tammy. And he's starting to embrace this idea that he's so special that he deserves to meet this ideal Mormon woman who can help him bring in the apocalypse. This second part of his life, that's what he would talk about. He realizes that there are two parts to his life. His first part of his life with Tammy and a second part of his life.

part of his life because it's with Julie Roe that he confides that Tammy will die, that he sees in a vision. She will die. And this is, again, well before he knew Lori. So for those who say, oh, it was Lori. It was Lori who chased him and pursued him. That might be somewhat true. But Chad was thinking about finding a woman and had concluded Tammy was going to die well before he knew of Lori. Here is Julie Roe explaining this knowledge in a podcast. She recorded back into December of 2019. She was actually defending Chad when the story of Lori's Missing Kids started to make the news. He and I talked over three years ago, two and a half, three years ago. We had both seen her in a car accident. We thought maybe she was going to go a year ago in a car accident because it seemed so constant that we both kept seeing this vision.

About a year ago, I got a message from the other side that the plant had changed for Tammy, that they had extended her time on Earth. don't even know what that means, Eric. I was just hearing that. I ran it by a Chad, and he said, I've been given the same message. I'm grateful I have more time. He told me, I asked him three weeks before she died, Chad, are you still seeing Tammy dying? And he said, yes, but I don't know how. Right. And so Julie Roe becomes a really significant moment for Chad because she helps him revive his publishing empire. In addition to pushing Chad into this idea that he's going to be a really significant going to meet someone else who's going to be his goddess and she's going to carry him or work with him as he goes into this new post-apocalyptic world. Yes, and he made a lot of money with

Julie Roe. When he published Julie Roe's books, that really put his publishing company on the map. Why is this significant? Because it's not really even about Julie Roe. It's about the fact that Chad is now fantasizing about his idea woman. He's starting in 2014 to develop ideas about who's going to replace Tammy. This is the phone call that Melanie Gibb recorded in January of 2020. It's essentially Chad confirming Julie's claims that he believed Tammy would die, and he also explains that his life has two parts. I know. I've been told three years that Tammy would pass away at a young age. That, as I think you can now see, becomes really important because when Lori comes along and she matches this fantasy, this ideal. He is totally primed for her. This hot and loaded ideal,

the cheerleader. Right. And so here we are, Chad, searching for significance, but struggling with some of his publishing empire. He's developing this idea of the second part of his life. He's developing an ideal of the woman he wants to replace Tammy. So he's totally predisposed. to meet someone like Lori when she enters his life. We know that there's several women that he probably was testing the waters with a bit. Let's call it auditioning. I think he auditioned Julie Rowe. She said in her first statement that she recorded in December that she talked with Chad every day.

I knew him very well. In fact, we talked on the phone every day while we were writing that book. I wrote it and he would edit it and we would work together on it because he had seen similar things related to the people. future and oh we talked about foreign troops invading and all kinds of stuff um it was actually that first summer when i met tammy that my angels on the other side of the veil told me that tammy would at some point in time in the future pass to the other side that's a whole story in itself i never mentioned a word of that to chab um he came to me later because he's a visionary also and he had been

given some insight from from the light side on the other side of the veil that his wife was going to pass We talked about it extensively. I do energy work. I did energy work with him to try to help him clear the emotions that he was feeling. He was grieving terribly at the news the light said was giving him. He was heartbroken. He cried to me several times about it. I cried with him.

And so there's a long history here with Chad, doing energy work together as well as my public speaking events where he would come, not to all of them, but several book signing. There's also some speculation that didn't he make physical advances on her? Yes, according to Julie Rowe in a statement made to Inside Edition, and I will quote here, Julie said that during a meeting and energy healing session with him in Rexburg, Idaho, in mid-December 2018, Chad forcibly kissed her, got on top of her, and while they were clothed, rubbed his genitals against her body. end quote. That is from the Inside Edition website, which also mid-December 2018, he was definitely

talking to Lori then. In fact, it was two months before then in October that he had emailed Lori about his light and dark rating scale and had rated Tiley 4.1 dark. That was two months before he allegedly kissed Julie Roe during an energy healing session. But Julie shared even more when she was interviewed by Nancy Grace. Take a listen. And the time that you need Chad Daybell, did he ever hit on you? Yes. What happened?

And my husband knows it. Did Chad Daybell think you were one of his past wives, too? Yes. So this is his line. Every attractive woman, he tells them. He knew them in a previous life and they were married. So basically, why not just have sex right now because you've already been married in another life? I'm seeing a pattern.

You worked closely with him. Yes. And bam, suddenly he remembers, hey, I was married to you in another life. Yes. Then there's Lori Valo. Then there's the other lady you told me about that he was texting and her husband found out. Right. That's three right there.

He also told me that he thought he was married to Melanie Gibb. And you were the first person I've said that to other than three people in my closest circle. And my husband, of course. Apparently, a lot of women fall for this. All kinds of women. Because he's misusing his spiritual gifts. It is to date one of the hardest things I have ever experienced in my life. And I feel extremely betrayed by Chad.

Not only has Chad Dayball been involved with multiple murders, but he also seems to prey on multiple women. Would you go as far as to call Chad a sexual predator? It does appear that there's grooming taking place. Grooming refers to the process that many sexual offenders undergo to gain the trust and compliance of their victims. The grooming here seems to occur with Chad suggesting that he has been married to multiple women in past lives.

That's definitely a form of grooming. and a form of flattery that's attempting to build a false or non-existent connection with someone that might allow him to take advantage of these women. Let's return to the two major strands that I was trying to tie together. The critical common piece between these two strands of thought, that Chad being a prophet and Chad seeking significance, of course, those two go together are his books. and the important part to know about his books is that he's created this elaborate fictional world,

which he says is real. He's all in on this fictional world, which he later claims is actually being downloaded from beyond the veil. Here's an excerpt from Chad's autobiography. My torn veil allows information to be downloaded into my brain from the other side. The scenes I am shown are real events that will happen. This is really important because Lori, we believe, starts reading Chad's books around 2015. So for Lori, the common piece is also Chad's writings.

Yes. What they're both invested in is this fictional kingdom, this fictional city of light that Chad's created, and Lori's buying into it. So when they meet, that's the commonality. That's what draws them together. What draws Chad to Lori is the fact that he perceives her to be this ideal Mormon woman, that he's envisioned for years now, at least since 2014. So he's totally prime for her. And what Lori brings in is she knows all of Chad's books.

She knows or believes that these are not fiction. And so she's completely smitten with Chad Daybell by the time she meets him. She completely buys into his vision of this post-apocalyptic world. Her fantasy about him was created before she met him. So this is where it gets really interesting. We're only going to speak on the part of Chad Daybell here. But we will be talking about how Lori factors into this equation in our next episode when we deal more in depth with Lori.

But this is what I think happens. They're both coming together over this fictional universe that Chad's created. That's what drives this whole narrative. That's what drives these murders in the end. Chad gets the girl in the end. He gets the, quote, hot and loaded cheerleader. Some people have referred to her that way. I'm adding that for poetic effect.

Here he is with the girl. Lori has invested in this vision, but now what happens? What happens? Here's the problem. They've invested all this time and energy in this fictional world, but I think that if most of us were to wait for the end of the world, the best probability of that would be the sun burning out or some type of nuclear holocaust, but the sun is going to burn out in probably about seven or eight billion years, according to most astronomers. So that's a long time to wait for this kingdom to manifest itself, right? Lori doesn't want to want to be. to wait seven billion years. She wants to see this narrative move forward quickly. She's an action-oriented woman. She gets what she wants. She's probably pushing Chad and saying, okay, here we are. We've got this great narrative. We have all these revelations. What do we do with this? And now Chad is probably feeling some sense of inadequacy because he doesn't really know what to do with that. He doesn't know how to respond. Right. He still has a wife. He still has a wife. She at this point is still married. As far as we know, they don't have a date for the end of the world yet.

Lori is really pushing Chad to act. She's forcing him to come up with something that is actionable and that will put this whole plot into motion. And that is when Chad comes up with his entire rating system of dark and light. Because now, once he puts that in motion, he has something to use, something to act on in the real world. Here is Merlin Maury again, discussing the impact of such a rating system. We are literally looking for things to label evil so that once we've done that, we can fight them.

It becomes even more actionable when he starts leaving people as zombies. With this in place, a cascade of deadly events seems to follow. And I think part of that is because this is Chad's, way of trying to show Lori that his beliefs are real, that real things happen in the world. This isn't like reading the Lord of the Rings and going to the movie theater and coming home and

saying, oh, let's play our video games. There's no video game here for Chad Daybell. This is real. There's nothing more real than murdering kids. And so I think he's doing this in a way to impress Lori, but he's also doing it, and we've talked about this a lot, to test her, to test her loyalty. If Chad knows if he doesn't do something, if he doesn't try to operationalize this whole fictional universe, he's going to lose Lori. His ideal woman is probably going to question him and she might walk away. And he doesn't want that. He wants to keep Lori at all costs because he's had this ridiculous fantasy of the ideal woman for so many years. So the minute that Chad implements his dehumanizing system of good and evil and tells Lori that certain people are zom,

He's now made that real. He's now taken this fiction from these books and brought it into the real world and he set the stage for everything else that's going to transpire. So from this point forward, when Chad meets Laurie in 2018 and he starts trying to make this real, we see a number of events,

including the death of Charles Vallow, we see the death of Tammy Daybell, we see the attempt to kill Tammy Daybell, We see the attempt to kill Brandon Boudreau. We see the death of Tiley, quickly followed by the death of JJ. We see a string of events that makes this whole narrative realistic. It brings it down from the realm of fantasy into the real world so that Chad can prove to Lori that he's a real prophet,

that these visions he's having are real, and that she can buy in. She can go all in on Chad's vision. She's just another part of this fame-obsessed, superficial, narcissistic Chad Daybell who wants to have the good-looking girl on his arm when he goes around as the prophet. So why does this matter? Would Chad Daybell have continued in mediocrity in these fringe groups and just went along merrily with his day-to-day life if Lori Valo doesn't enter the picture? I don't know. I think the answer for me is yes.

I think Lori pushes Chad into action. I think she forces him to reckon with this extreme belief system that he's been developing. And she wants him to put up or shut up, essentially. She's definitely a more action-oriented person than he is. From all accounts, Chad's a little bit lazy. But Lori definitely makes stuff happen. And she definitely puts some things into action. I think she pushes him to really dig in on his apocalyptic visions.

She wants him to take ownership of all the things he's saying because she believes them as much as he does. But I think she's a little frustrated that Chad isn't making more of a commitment to this belief system. So when Lori enters, I think things accelerate. Lori wants movement towards the apocalypse, or at least the apocalyptic belief system. system. She wants Chad to be with her, which means that she can't be married, although she doesn't want a divorce. Nor can they get divorced, Chad has decided. Right, because that would go against what a prophet should do. This is interesting history in the LDS church. Until recently, LDS men would not be called as a bishop, which is the leader over their local congregation if they had been divorced.

I can only assume this played a part in Chad not wanting to get divorced. In fact, despite Lori having been divorced several times herself, she makes a very big deal of Chad not being divorced in the call Melanie Gibb recorded. Listen to this. I am troubled. Maybe that's the better word. Troubled. Because these things like you being with Chad before he's even divorced is unusual.

behavioral behavior for a person that's seeing you're Christ. I was with him and he was never divorced. So, you know, murder would be a better option, according to Chad and Lori. When things start to accelerate, this is when Chad really starts to become entrenched in his entire

light and dark system. This is when he starts labeling people in Lori's life and in their lives and eventually begins to call them zombies. With this system in place, it essentially gives Chad the power of life over death. The Chad becomes the prophet in a position to judge others as evil and to see

them as unworthy of making the journey to the new Jerusalem. To essentially dehumanize people. Here again are Merlin Maori and Jeff Greenberg discussing dehumanization. The groups of people that we have to make other to make victims to make not truly human. The ways we have to humiliate or brutalize them, torment them, destroy them. The Hillary was very big on that, that the Jews are animals and the gypsies are animals. You know, and he compared them to vermin. But we Aryans, we're not. We're the true humans and we're going to live on a greatness.

And he was unfortunately able to sell that message. We should take a step back. We talked about the idea of death anxiety. There's another important variable here, I think, that's playing a role. And that's what psychologists call disgust sensitivity. Discuss sensitivity is the way people react to things that are unpleasant. We know from talking to some of our sources that Chad has a thing about garbage. I mean, I guess most of us do, but there's a scale here that people that are easily disgusted

tend to be more discussed sensitive, and people that are not disgusted as easily tend to be less sensitive. And it appears that Chad is very sensitive. that he makes comments to the effect that his mother isn't cleaning up the home enough, that there's too much garbage around. He gets upset when people are sick because he's averse to disease, apparently. Most of us, of course, are, but he's particularly sensitive to that. We know from his books that he talks about the notion of purity a lot.

Why is this important? Because people that are more easily disgusted, in other words, they're high, and disgust sensitivity tend to be more rigid. They tend to be more extreme. More black and white. Right. They tend to be more close-minded. These are all qualities we see in Chad. They also are qualities that will play a role in his idea of moral purification in the New Jerusalem. Here's a clip from David Pizarro. He teaches at Cornell University. He does research on disgust. Here he is at a TED Talk talking about the impact of disgust sensitivity. One of the features, though, of disgust is not just its universality and its strength,

but the way that it works through association. So when one disgusting thing touches a clean thing, that clean thing becomes disgusting, not the other way around. This makes it very useful as a strategy if you want to convince somebody that an object or an individual or an entire social group is disgusting and should be avoided. The philosopher, Martha Nussbaum points this out in this quote, thus throughout history certain disgust properties, sliminess, bad smell, stickiness, decay, foulness have repeatedly and monotonously been associated with Jews, women, homosexuals, untouchables, lower class people, all of those are imagined as tainted by the dirt of the body. Let me give you just some examples of how, some powerful examples of

how this has been used historically. This comes from a Nazi children's book, published in 1938. Just look at these guys, the Laos-infested beards, the filthy protruding ears, those stained fatty clothes. Jews often have an unpleasant Swedish odor. If you have a good nose, you can smell the Jews. Here's another quote from Robert J. Lifton. This is from a documentary called Flight from Death, talking about the notion of purification. It means violence in the service of not just achieving a political goal. There may be political goals, but beyond any political goal is a more amorphous sense of bringing an end to the present world because it is too corrupt.

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Right. That he needs to show her that this isn't just some fiction, that she needs to buy into this completely. She already has because she's read his books, but she needs more. And so I think this is when Chad really digs in on the notion of zombies, enlightened dark, and by the spring of 2019, when Charles Vallow gets labeled as Nick Schneider, the writings on the wall. Well, not just that. Tiley was labeled dark before Nick Schneider ever existed.

And as a zombie. Which, can you just imagine that? your daughter is labeled as a zombie by somebody, someone you're likely dating at this point or crushing on, I don't know. And you still think he's fabulous. And the whole idea of zombies, by the way, is also related to terror management theory. And the sense that a zombie is probably the most literal manifestation of death,

you can imagine. It's a body that's come back to life, but isn't really the person. it's still a dead body in many ways, and it shows Chad's struggles with disgust, and it struggles with death anxiety. He doesn't know what to do with these things. They haunt him, but he is able to defend against that

by coming up with this notion of zombies as being the ultimate evil, and therefore in need of disposal. Chad moves to Rexburg in 2015 because that's where he believes the apocalypse will occur. He has visions of tents lined up along the Snake River. He believes he needs to be in Rexburg

because that's where the second coming will occur. By the fall of 2019, Chad convinces Lori that she needs to move to Rexburg because they're going to lead as God and goddess, the new Jerusalem. Lori moves to Rexberg in... Lori moved to Rexburg shortly after Charles was killed. It was about a year ago, so 2019.

It was a quick move for a woman who loves warm climate, and anyone that's been to Rexburg knows that is not a place with a warm climate. But Lori moved to Rexberg. She moved there with her brother, Alex, Tiley, and JJ. And supposedly someone from our LDS congregation, we learned came up with them to help them all move in. We think that Chad does not want to invest in Lori's kids. He sees them as a nuisance and a cost. He labels them as dark. He labels them as zombies. And that is sufficient. And when the prophet tells you that your kids are better off dead, I guess in Lori's eyes,

you listen to the prophet or to the leader or to the person who has a ripped veil. It appears that Chad is the one who requested the children be murdered, based upon sources we've talked to, and the fact that he's the one behind this labeling system of dark and light that dehumanizes the kids, that calls them zombies. Sometimes I've wondered if, and it's just speculation, sometimes I've wondered if he even said to her that before Tammy dies, your kids have to die. Because at this point, Tammy, his wife is still alive. that always blows my mind to think about that he's asking this of Lori, of two children she has invested years into and loved from all we know before he's even available to get married to her. He has a wife.

Who's ordering these deaths? Is it Lori? Is it Chad? Is it even perhaps Alex Cox? Just based upon our whole analysis and sources we've talked to, It seems as if Chad is the one in charge. Chad is the one ordering the murder of these kids, even if he doesn't do it directly himself.

And let's dig really deep. This is the hidden podcast. This is why you're listening, because we want to figure out why. Why did Chad do this? Why would he want these kids murdered? He could have divorced, right? These kids could have easily been handed over to K and L.

Larry. Tiley was almost an adult. Why not just send her off to college? Why murder these kids? And let's go deep now. Let's really figure out what's hidden here. So we've talked about terror management theory. There's a lot of death anxiety that's driving this. There's a lot of death anxiety driving Chad's extreme beliefs and his extreme behaviors, his need to feel like he's a profit. Discuss sensitivity is coming into play. Chad hates being around corpses all the time. This is one of the worst possible things that can happen to Chad Daybell. Is what? Is being disgusted, feeling impure. That's creating this idea. He needs to build an

alternative universe, which is his city of light that's completely pure, that has no disgust, no dead bodies, no death. And no stepkids. So we've got terror management theory. We've got disgust sensitivity. And there's another element, I would add. And that's, what the Greeks called Cleos, K-L-E-O-S. Cleos, that means immortality. Why is Chad doing this? Because Chad thinks he's immortal. Chad wants to exert the power of life over death.

In the end, that's what he's up to. Chad seeks adoration because he wants to be immortal. He wants to be seen as a God that will live forever, that will have recognition forever. This is the response to all. all the things we talked about earlier, the shame, the ugliness, the narcissism. This is how it gets expressed. It gets expressed through his desire to be immortal.

The most brutal and primitive style of coping with death is to dream that you can master it by killing or destroying other people. It is an opportunity to confront death and to escape it while inflicting it on someone else. The best way you can show you're immortal is to exert the power of life over death, to murder these kids, which has an added side effect, by the way. It creates a murder bond between him and Lori. If you want to solidify your relationship with someone, the best way to do that is, well, I shouldn't say the best. The one of the most dysfunctional ways to do that is to go in on a murder of someone's kids because, that's an inseparable union that you're going to create that you're not going to fracture.

And I think we're seeing some of that with these two in jail. Neither of them have turned on each other. They might at some point, but certainly there's a deep bomb. Yeah, sort of like the friend that comes and says, hey, will you help me bury the body? You know that's a close friend. And if you do that, you're in it forever. Because, you know, that's happened to me. And there's another component that we've talked about previously, but I want to reiterate here.

And that's the sacrificial component. that I think when you're in this position of a deity, there's very much this sacrificial notion of murdering the children to determine someone's loyalty. And the story of Abraham and Isaac, obviously, God is testing Abraham's commitment to another world to him. He's testing him in this sacrificial manner through the one thing that's most important to him. He's seeing if God is more important than his son, his son that he values above all else. God is testing his loyalty. And that's exactly what Chad's doing, I think.

Chad is forcing Lori to make the most horrendous decision that any mother could ever make to see if she will remain loyal to him. And if she's truly committed, as God was with Abraham and Isaac, if she's truly committed to the other world, to heaven, the non-human world. Chad wants to see if she fully believes his new Jerusalem and she's willing to kill her kids to go there just as God is testing to see how spiritual Abraham is and that if he's willing to sacrifice everything. If Abraham's willing to sacrifice Isaac to participate or become a part of God's kingdom. The only difference here is God said, just kidding, but in this

situation, it sounds like Chad didn't say that. Right. There's no just kidding here. follow through with it. There's another part of this that I think is important to mention that Chad knows at some level Lori's children are the most precious part of herself. Even if Lori's conflicted about her relationship with her kids, she still spent 16 years raising Tiley. She gave birth to her. She gave birth to Tiley. She spent 16 years with her. She's raised JJ since he was a baby. She still has this tremendous commitment and investment in these children. It's highly unusual in Philicide for a mother to condone the murder of a 16-year-old. Most cases of Philicide involve children that are much younger.

Philicide is rare, even though sometimes it doesn't feel like that when you listen to true crime, but it is. But what's really rare is a 16-year-old being murdered by her mother. And sometimes you hear of teenagers being killed by a father, let's say, in a domestic violence situation, not premeditated. But it is so. uncommon to have a mother killing a 16 year old when they've invested so much time and energy and memories and they're about to leave the nest. What Chad's asking Lori to do and this speaks to this loyalty issue is she's asking her to part with the most precious part of herself of her life, her kids. Even if she's a psychopath and even if she lacks empathy, it's still an

investment, is still memories. It's still something that matters to her. She's still close to these kids. And she still has a huge investment in them. In fact, we spoke to a long-time friend of Lori's. Well, she calls herself an ex-friend now. That makes sense. Shelly knew Lori for a decade while they lived in Texas. She knew Lori through two marriages, two divorces, and the birth of Tiley. She would spend time at their house. This is what she saw in Lori's parenting. And I quote Shelly, Lori had that motherly instinct. She was protective of Tiley. She was was a mama bear. She was a good mom to Colby, end quote. In other words, Lori had an investment in these kids. So this is an extraordinary thing for someone to do. You have to think you're a deity

to do this type of thing. You have to believe that you're special to do something like this. And Chad Daybell does. And Lori would have to think he was special in order to do it. Lori has to buy into this. There's no challenging him. She accepts this. And that leads, to a question we've been asked by several people close to the situation, which is, is Chad evil or are these mental health problems? Is Chad evil? This is a question that two people now invested in this case have asked us. One person specifically said they wanted to know this. Is Chad evil or does he have a mental illness? Now, to me, this kind of feels like a hard question to answer because what is evil?

It's a word that seems pretty abstract. Can you give an either-or? Is Chad evil or does he have mental illness? Well, we're going to spend a lot of future episodes talking about this idea of evil. So it's a really complex idea. I don't want to really delve into it here. But I'll leave you with some thoughts on this. And these are my thoughts.

My explanation so far has been Chad has narcissistic features. that were exacerbated by death anxiety. Terror management theory tells us that he's acting out more extremely because he's working in the cemetery all the time, and he's around death. And in some ways, that's what fuels this whole situation. That's what gets us to the murders. In fact, I want to listen to a brief quote by a professor of literature, Kirby Farrell, who talks about a similar idea.

The most brutal and primitive style of coping with death is to dream that you can master it by killing or destroying other people. If you ask me from a psychological standpoint what is evil, I would basically say, and this is the simplistic version, but I would basically say that evil is deriving sadistic pleasure from inflicting pain on other people. The most extreme form of pain is obviously murder. Evil then is essentially the idea of creating harm or harming others in a way that someone finds to be pleasurable. So like Israel Keyes would be an example because I know that he had expressed that he found pleasure in hurting people is what you're saying. He would get as close to that definition as you could get. I mean, there were some mental health problems there. There were actually some religious issues in his family too.

that probably led to some of those circumstances. But let's ask this question. We know about the bee incident. Yeah, to remind everyone, there is a point in Chad Daybell's book where he shares that he killed a lot of honeybees, that he was killing them one by one and realized before he knew it

that he had been killing a lot of them. In fact, this is how Chad explains it in his book. One day that spring in the eighth grade, I was slowly walking home from across Memorial Park after school, and I saw a honeybee pollinating a dandelion. I peered at it for a moment, then smashed it with my shoe. I spotted another one, then another one. I got a strange satisfaction from it. I kept count, and after about a half hour I'd killed 120 bees. Then, as I was about to step on a...

another one. A masculine voice shouted in my ear. Hey, stop it. Leave them alone. So the satisfaction from killing bees part at such an early age is interesting. Whether we can read anything into it at this point is hard to say. But let's assume that there's something sadistic about that. That would lead us in the direction of something approaching evil. Let's also look at the way Tiley's body was mutilated. Mutilated. Right. The question here is, did Chad derive sadistic pleasure from tearing her body up? Right. So even if he didn't murder her, again, we don't know. John and I aren't going to pretend that we know who murdered the children. We have our suspicions. But let's say he didn't

murder the children, but did he find pleasure or satisfaction in cutting Tiley up and burning her? If he did, that would approach this idea of evil. And finally, a question I've raised with Lauren, when Chad asked Lori to kill the kids, as we have speculated, again, we don't know for sure. This is speculation, but it's based upon our best insights into this case and talking to many sources close to this case. Did he derive pleasure, sadistic pleasure, when he implored Lori to kill the kids? If the answer to that is yes, if the answer to all of these, the bees mutilating Tiley's body and asking Lori to kill the kids, if the answer is that yes, he derived pleasure, sadistic pleasure from all of these things, then I would have to say that the answer to that question is quite

possibly that yes, Chad is evil. And I don't want to offer a final answer. I'm obviously a psychologist. My tendency is going to be to lean towards the mental health explanation and to say that this was narcissism with a great deal of death anxiety underneath. But I would like our listeners to reflect on this for a moment. And I'm going to leave it open because I do think that there definitely are some evil components here. Here are some additional thoughts on evil from Jeff Greenberg in the documentary Flight from Death. From the terror management theory research, we see why Ernest Becker's works have been called

a science of evil. His ideas have given us a means by which we can scientifically examine the root causes of human aggression and violence. Becker writes that humans cause evil by wanting to triumph over evil. the quest for immortality. We commit the greatest evil by trying to escape from evil, by trying to create a paradise on earth. Before we end today, and I know we've had a long dinner at this point, and it's really late in our household, too. So while we said that we're going to talk about both Chad and Lori here for the second time,

we're going to end on this moment and bring Lori up to our dinner table next. episode. And probably by the rate we're going the next few episodes. There is a lot that is hidden and a lot to discuss. Before we end, I want to step back for a minute and reflect upon this idea of death anxiety that terror management theory looks at so closely. If you think deeply about terror management theory, as I have over the years, oftentimes it's a very depressing conclusion, which is that in the face of death, many of us feel helpless, and we respond in ways that aren't always healthy. I just want to counter that with a quote from one of my mentors in graduate school. He was a leadership studies pioneer. Something you probably don't know about me is that

I studied leadership in grad school, and on and off over the years, I've worked with a number of leaders because it's very fulfilling, and I believe that people in positions of leadership exert the greatest influence over our culture and society, and they have the broadest impact in terms of their effect upon the world. So I have studied leadership, and I've worked in that arena, although not as much as my work on the criminal side of things. But one of my mentors in grad school wrote a book called Geeks and Geesers, where he examined leaders over the age of 70 and under the age of 30 that had already made significant strides in their domains. Many of the leaders under 30 were in their technological domain. Many over 70 were in more traditional domains. But he did

extensive interviews with a number of these people. And one of his great findings was that the leaders over 70 had a great deal in common with the leaders under 30. And he referred to this as Neotony, that's spelled N-E-O-T-E-N-Y. Neatny means taking youthful characteristics into old age. He argued that great leaders have this capacity to stay young and to stay energetic well into their old age, that their age wasn't a barrier to their contributions to the world. Let's take a listen to this quote from Geeks and Geezers by Warren Benes. Neotny is the retention of all those wonderful qualities that we associate with youth,

curiosity, playfulness, eagerness, fearlessness, warmth, energy. Unlike those defeated by time and age, our geysers have remained very much like our geeks, open, willing to take risks, hungry for knowledge and experience, courageous, eager to see what the new day brings. Time and loss steal the zest from the unlucky and leave them looking longingly. at the past. Neotony is a metaphor for the quality and the gift that keeps the fortunate of whatever age focused on all marvelous, undiscovered things to come. So Neotony, as described by Warren Benis here in Geeks and Geezers, is one component. It's one possible antidote to this issue

of death anxiety that tends to consume human beings. I should point out again that Chad's death anxiety was immense. As we discussed, I think this is probably the most hidden variable in this case. This is the variable that's often overlooked that describes and explains so much of this case that Chad Daybell's career working in the cemetery exposed him to death anxiety day in and day out for decades. And his response to this was to become more entrenched and more immersed in his extreme religious views. His response was to expand his cult, to bring more people in, find followers that believed in him that supported his ideas. It was to, in the end, attempt to circumvent death itself. It was a quest for immortality, not only to become a prophet, but to lead

the new Jerusalem as a God or as a God-like figure. So death anxiety leads to extremism, leads to this intense quest for significance, which is similar to the desire for immortality. In the end, that's where we land with Chad Daybell. wants to be immortal. He wants to be in charge, significant. He wants to have a life where he's calling the shots. He's in charge. And it's a life that will never end. It's a life where he's overseen the new world. And I don't know what could be a more insidious response to death anxiety than that. We obviously know where his response to death anxiety led. A terrible place. Right. A deadly place. Well, then I have questions because a lot of people have death anxiety.

I mean, I think I've had death anxiety pretty much my entire life. It's getting better. But I think one reason I was even obsessed with true crime when I was a child and scary stories was death anxiety. I think it haunts not just me, but quite a few people. How do you solve that? What do you do with death anxiety? Neotony is one solution, I think. Neotony is an attitudinal solution.

I think the problem with death anxiety and the reason why it's so powerful is precisely because of what you said, that it's a deep existential concern. Existential means part of existence. It's a part of existence that none of us can deny or dispose of. I think there's another possible solution to death anxiety. In addition to this attitude of neotony that Warren Benis talks about, the other possible solution is to add something of value to the world. If death is about loss and dissolution, then the antidote to that is to create. The antidote to death anxiety is to bring something new

into the world, to add value to the world, to help illuminate our path as human beings, to have some knowledge and wisdom and love and compassion and understanding to the world so that the world is a better place. I know that sounds cliched, but in the end, if death is dissolution, then the solution, the antidote, is to create. It's to add something new and beneficial and prosocial to the world. It's to help us understand our condition as human beings and how we can contribute something positive. So there's many ways that could get expressed.

You can have children that you mold to become really positive, empathic, maybe philanthropic human beings at some point. You can create a business that adds value to the world. You can create art. You can write books, do documentaries, create podcasts. There's so many ways to express ourselves creatively. There's unlimited ways. I think the important point is that death is in some ways the ultimate expression of decay and entropy,

and creation is the opposite. Creation is bringing order and understanding and light into the world, and therefore most of us or those of us who are lucky enough to be engaged in creative projects have the opportunity to really push back against death and death anxiety to some extent. It's still going to be there. Terror management theory strongly suggests that death is pervasive for all of us, but there are ways to manage it that are healthy and productive and that help us grow and evolve as human beings. I want to end then with the final thought. This comes from Amy Hempel's book.

Amy Hempel is a brilliant fiction writer. She's mainly written short stories. She wrote a book recently called Sing To It, which is the title story. And in that story, she quotes an Arab proverb. And the proverb goes like this. When danger approaches sing to it. My slight variation of that quote is, when death approaches, sing to it. In other words, we don't have to be afraid of death. We can approach death with courage,

especially if we lived creative, courageous, productive, social lives, where we attempt to help each other and to illuminate the world and to leave behind something a little better of ourselves when we leave. When death approaches, sing to it. We want to again thank our friends, Burke Rich and Dan McCauley, Burke Rich from Salt Lake City, who reads from Chad Daybell's books, and Dan McCauley from Boisey, Idaho, who has helped us with several voiceovers now,

including tonight's excerpt from the book, Geeks and Geezers. To remind everyone, we have started a YouTube channel, and since we recorded this episode, Julie Rowe had a full-day workshop in Salt Lake City, and a person attending that workshop sent us 23 minutes of raw video from that Julie Row event. There was talk of portals as well as other beliefs that Chad seems to also carry.

That raw video is on our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime. For our supporters who help make our podcast possible at patreon.com slash hidden true crime, we recently shared an hour-long video with Alex Cox's friend, Mary Tracy. Mary Tracy has been a great help to us, and we want to thank her for the information she's given us. and that she shares during this hour-long interview. You can find that at patreon.com slash hidden true crime for all of our supporters. Our Facebook page is facebook.com slash hidden true crime.

And our Instagram is Instagram.com slash hidden true crime. We also want to thank the women with wicked truths and F bombs. They have given us a lot of the documents that we've been able to go through. they've done a great job being journalists and finding a lot of these documents from Lori's past. That interview you heard with Chad Daybell throughout our last couple of episodes where he's talking about his books and his work in the cemetery, we have that interview. I can't find it anywhere else on the web right now. We're going to be posting that for our Patreon supporters if we haven't already by the time you're listening to this. A little tease for you guys.

Since recording this episode, John and I have lived. learned a lot more. We've talked to some important players in this case. Tiley's aunt has received a recording of Lori, claiming she wanted to murder an ex-husband. There are a lot of things our listeners have asked us to discuss and a lot of new developments from our side that we want to share with you. I think it's important to note that our interpretation of this case evolves constantly based on people that we talk to and people that reach out to us. So I think while our broader psychological interpretation of this case remains fairly constant, the underlying details tend to change things here and there. And this is also very much an evolutionary process for us as we go along.

It is a current case that is happening before our eyes. So we're going to continue following it, continuing to collect new information, and bring you the newest developments. So stick with us. There might be some evolution in our next episode. Thank you for joining us for dinner tonight. We hope that you'll continue to share with your friends, that there is a seat for them at our dinner table as well. And as Banks likes to remind us, be careful with the portals. Stay safe and wear a helmet.

Don't go into portals. Yeah, stay out of portals as much as possible. Julie Rowe is not staying out of portals. You can see from that raw video if you go to our YouTube channel. she is still discussing portals. Although I'm happy to announce that as she created a circular motion with her arm, she did not create an actual portal. She only created a fictitious circle with her arm.

So I've told Lauren that if she indeed was able to create an actual portal on stage, I would have paid the full admission price to see that. I think she discussed portals within portals. But what John's talking about there? The waving of the hands. Go check out the video. note the rainbow flags. Even though there's a claim that she's creating portals,

there's no actual portal created during her workshop. Maybe you just weren't looking hard enough. Go check it out and tell us what you think. Maybe the portal was in the conference from next to the conference they were in. Maybe. There were a lot of wardrobe changes as well during said workshop. Anyway, thanks for joining us. Until next time, good night.

Good night. Good night. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it,

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from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN.

ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.