Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Collaboration with Mormon Stories and Hidden True Crime - Chad Daybell's religious beliefs

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

A HIDDEN TRUE CRIME COLLABORATION WITH MORMON STORIES PODCAST with Host John Dehlin and Lauren Matthias, as well as Lori Vallow's cousin Megan Conner with Midlife Revolution Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom every day, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. LAUREN MATTHIAS was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet.  A podcast that started at their dinner table has now turned into the dynamic husband and wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming at Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, ui and c e.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. It is April 19, 24. We're live streaming. And today we are super excited to be covering alleged potential murderer. Chad Daybell. Chad Daybell's trial has begun. I believe we're two weeks into it. We're going to be

talking about the Mormon angle to the two weeks that have passed so far to join us in this discussion. We have Lauren, Lauren Matthias Johnson. Is that right from Hidden True Crime Podcast? Hey, Lauren. Hey. How do you say it? How do you say your name publicly? Laura, it would technically be Lauren Johnson, Matthias. And these days I go by Lauren Matthias. Okay, Lauren Matthias. Sorry about that. It's okay. Laura Matthias, her and her husband, Dr. John, they have an amazing YouTube channel that does hidden true crime. And you ought to check it out. Go subscribe to it. Now, we're also really excited to have Megan Connor.

Megan also has a brand new podcast. She is also known as Lori Vallow's cousin, among many other things. Hey, John. Thanks for having me back. Yeah. It's great to have you both. And we've had both of you on several times on Mormon Stories podcast before, not just talking about Chad DeBell and Lori Vallow.

Lauren's, Laura, we haven't had you tell your story yet. So maybe we're going to do that someday. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. I think so. We're talking. And Megan, we've had you want to tell your story, right? Yes, I was with you almost exactly a year ago.

Yeah, that's amazing. And sometimes our friend Mindy joins us. Today's episode was brought to you by Herardo. He wasn't able to join us today. But we've covered a lot so far. So go back and check our archive for those episodes. All right. So let's begin.

Let's just assume there's some people that, let's just spend a minute or two with a little bit of background and kind of any background on the trial. that we should be providing before we jump into the video. Lauren, I think you are in Boise attending every single hour of trial. Is that right? That is correct. Lauren, what should all of our viewers and listeners know about the background and or the,

you know, behind the scenes leading up to this trial that people should know? Okay. All right. Wow. Well, first off, as I told John Dillon, and I'll say it again, true crime has never been more Mormon stories than it is right now when it comes to the Chad Daybell trial. So this starts with two people, Lori Valo and Chad Debel. Both of their spouses die under mysterious circumstances in 2019. Not so mysterious anymore. Lori Valo has

not been charged in her husband's death and both of them have been charged in Chad's wife's death. Then the two lovebirds get married and Lori Vallow's children mysteriously disappear. They are found in June of 2020 in Chad Daybell's yard. Their remains. Both JJ, seven-year-old JJ Vallow and 16-year-old Tiley Ryan, brother and sister, Lori Vallow, Vallow, Daybell's children. It's a heartbreaking, terrible scene. Fast forward to, well, not then fast forward to last year,

Lori Vallow is in trial and here in Ada County in Boise, Idaho, and she is convicted on Tammy Daybill's death. That's Chad Daybell's wife of 30 years, the mother to his five children, in JJ Vallow's death and in Tiley Ryan's. death and she is given three consecutive life sentences in prison. She was sentenced in July of 2023. And now here we are a year later. And this is who was once her co-defendant. The trials have now been split. And Chad Daybill faces the death penalty in these three deaths. There's also just to remind

people another death, Charles Vallow in Arizona, but this is Idaho. So right now we are covering the three murders that happened in Idaho. So may justice be served. And here we are, Chad Daybill is in day seven today of his trial that they expect to last possibly 10 weeks. That's what they told the jury during jury selection. I have already been here. I flew in Easter Sunday and I have been here ever since covering the trial every day.

I go live at lunch. I'm in the trial stream chatting with people. and here we are today. Megan, can you believe Lauren was able to rifle that off spontaneously without any notes? Yes, I can believe it because she's been doing this for almost four years now. So. And she's brilliant, right? Yes, and she's brilliant.

Megan, is there anything you would add to Lauren's amazing intro just, you know, from your point of view? I mean, really just that it's been a saga that started in 2019 when I, I, for me, when I first saw the Facebook post that Lori's husband Charles had been shot, and it was shocking and horrifying. And what's sad about it is that it's divided our family. It's changed all of the family members. One of the people that interviewed me made the comment that murderers kill their families, too. And there definitely have been the death of a lot of relationships because of how this is all

happened. And it's just been, it's been a hard journey, but I've tried to make the most of it by talking about the toxic family dynamics that lead to these kinds of tragedies and by trying to help people recognize those dynamics and find healthier ways to relate with each other in families. Love it. Thank you, Megan. Lauren, what about the main character or actors in this trial and anything we want to say about the Mormonness of this trial for the never Mormons who are joining us today. Oh yeah. I left out a big piece. I was given the basics and I left out one of the major parts in any crime, which is the motive. In this case, there are many, but there are some very unusual and unique ones. And that is where the Mormon or LDS faith comes in.

So when it comes to this case, and then I'll jump to the trial, just in general, we have two co-defendants who claim that the children and the spouses that died were zombies, that they were inhabited by evil spirits with names and Ned and Viola and Hillary. And they were killed to release the body from or release the evil spirit from the body and then the body died. You have people that believe in portals in their closets that they hang out in to see each other in different states. And you have people that are believing in past lives or what they call multiple probations and that they were tight with Jesus Christ in their past life and lovers in past lives. You have an entire community of preppers online and in person meeting at conferences that believe these beliefs that are coming into play, that preach these things.

you have every single thing that I just shared with you here in trial happening with witness testimony plus more plus the idea that Chad Daybell's defense might be an attempt to protect the LDS church. So that's when I text it John. I'm like it doesn't get more more. True crime has never been more Mormon stories than this. And it's heartbreaking. And that's why I'm here. And I know that I crack jokes because dark humor gets me through. But it is beyond just, belief to any regular human being. And it's something that I've been trying to tackle for four years because I don't know how we got here and I've been trying to figure it out for four and a half years now.

Love it. And if I can just add my view on kind of some aspects of the Mormon angle, you know, it's probably obvious to everyone that both Chad and Lori are, you know, at the time of the murders, we're active, faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in good standing. Y'all, y'all please interrupt me if I'm wrong. They were in good standing. As I understand it, they had Temple Recommends, which shows sort of the highest level of Mormon church sort of participation. They believed in God. They believed in Jesus Christ. So they were Christians. They believed in the Book of Mormon. They believed in the Prophet Joseph

Smith. And there's so many aspects. They believed, like many, like many, Let's just say fundamentalist Christians or evangelical Christians, they believe in the second coming of Jesus, that it's soon. That's a very core belief. Latter-day Saints in the Church Jesus Christ, Lattery Saints, means Jesus is coming soon. That's why the prepper movement is so strong within the Mormon church. They believe in spirits, that spirits come in and out of bodies, that evil spirits can come in and out of bodies. That's mainstream Orthodox Mormonism.

They believe in demonic possession, which means that, evil demons are all around us and they can come in our bodies at any time. That's core Orthodox Mormon doctrine. That's in Mormon scriptures. That's in Mormon teachings. And that's also just in Christian teachings. They believe in the Holy Ghost and that if you listen to God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, the feelings and the thoughts that come into your brain can be from God and Jesus or from Satan. But if, you know, if Chad's inspired and he's acting in a prophetic role with Lori, it's partly because he's been taught that his thoughts and feelings come from God, come from the Holy Ghost, and a revelations from God and Jesus. And I think

that's a big part of this. They believe in the ability to communicate with spirits who have passed on. That's very core Orthodox Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith received angelic visitations. spoke with angels, et cetera. That's all core Mormon doctrine. They believe in patriarchal blessings, which is the ability to receive a priesthood blessing and then be told what you're supposed to do by the person whose hands are laid upon your head,

who has the priesthood. That's something that I think is going to show up in today's episode. There are just so many, you know, a lot of people are, you know, always debating over how Mormon are Chad and Lori. And what I like to say is every spiritual or religious or supernatural teaching they have is either core Orthodox Mormon doctrine or like built on core tenets of Mormon doctrine and then one step further. So this idea of zombies may sound not Mormon at all.

But it is because basically what it means is the person, their body, they were alive, somehow this evil spirit or demonic spirit possessed them, which is all. Orthodox Mormonism, and then the twist they add is that must have kicked out their base core spirit, and then, of course, that means you can kill him. So that's the twist, but it's rooted in core Mormon doctrine and theology. And that's why I don't like the idea of giving the church too much of a pass by claiming that that's fringe non-Orthodox Mormon doctrine when it's built on core aspects of Mormon doctrine and theology. Now, I've been talking a lot. Lauren and, and Megan, please, please correct me because y'all both are either currently active faithful Mormons or you were. And so you guys can check me as much as you want.

Please do. Well, the defense would love you right now because that's exactly what John Pryor is trying to argue in there. And I think it takes away from the fact that what the prosecution is trying to argue and show what their witnesses is that Chad Daybel, he created this belief system. He is the author of this belief system. And he convinced Lori and Melanie and their crew of circle of friends that believed in this to follow him and look to him for guidance. Where the defense is trying to say in working there with Chad Daybell trying to say, no, no, the scales of light and dark. That's LDS teaching.

I want to give my perspective. I agree with what you're saying, John, that what you said, words are important, what you said is true that possess evil spirits possessing by core Orthodox Mormon teachings and then them taking it a step or two further. I would say maybe a couple steps further. And I would also maybe also say it might be core Christian beliefs. It was Christ that cast out evil spirits from people. And so this isn't beyond the scope of just Christianity in general and taking that a step

further. And I say that not to, this isn't a Mormon issue. I'm a true crime channel. And I have seen a lot of crimes in recent years that have to do with people believing Christian beliefs that are hurting children. And so my goal is to simply state this is a problem in general. And we got to look at it broadly, a little girl in California who dies in an exorcism at a church, and on and on. That's just one example. A surfer. teacher Matthew Coleman who took his children, believing that they were zombies over the border in Mexico and slaughtered them. So I just want to state that, yes, these are people that have strong religious beliefs, whether Christian, evangelical, Mormon, and taking it a step further. And this is

happening. So I think I don't want to disagree with you, but I want to broaden it is maybe what I want to say. Perfect. And please disagree with me because I love it when people do. Megan, I, Any quick, anything you want to add in response to anything, Lauren or I just said or no. No, I think I think you both encapsulated it perfectly. And I think the horrifying thing to me continues to be that this, this group of people did not disperse when Lori Vallow got arrested and convicted. And they did not disperse when Chad Daybell got arrested. And they have still not dispersed. There are still people out there in these fringe groups talking.

about this belief system and spreading this belief system amongst each other and quietly whispering that the leadership of the church has gone astray. And so it's just, it's a movement that is still out there. And I fear that we're going to continue to see more crimes like this happen because the church refuses to denounce these fringe groups and with their tacit approval, their silence gives tacit approval to their actions and to their theology and to everything that they do. And we have, in fact, already seen more crimes. Blaise Tibido, who was kidnapped and taken up into Canada because his family believed the same things. They were the visions of glory crew.

And so just these harmful teachings are still out there. People still believe them. And we're getting silence from Salt Lake City. And it's going to continue to perpetuate and it's terrifying to me. Thank you. Can I add one more thing too, John? Just another thought. Oh, please.

Thinking about what you said, as I joke that, you know, the defense would love you right now, which is probably why they asked you to join their expert witness team. They did not ask me. So take this into consideration from where I'm coming from. You know, I've been covering this case for, you know, like I said, nearly five years now. And, you know, I do have to agree that, you know, I'm pro-prosecution. I'm pro seeing what Chad did. And he did become sort of the leader of this group,

whether he's a accidental cult leader or a purposeful cult leader. And he did take these beliefs a step more. Nobody that I know of has learned about zombies in Sunday school, if that's fair to say. I'm not saying that it's not in scriptures possession and in the Bible, but it's not something people are learning every day in church, necessarily about zombies or a light and dark scale that includes a decimal system. This is Chad Daybell's light and dark scale where someone, once they hit 5 point or 4.6 dark,

then they cannot be redeemed. I mean, this is very specific Chad Daybell. So I do want to give credit where credits do to Chad Daybell, who's on trial right now. He certainly did create a lot of unique things like this decimal system. has no place in scripture or a Mormon history. I just want to emphasize the taking it the one step further and hold him accountable, I think, right now. And I'll actually agree and add a second to that, Lauren.

I do not believe that the average Mormon kills their spouse or the average Mormon kills their kids. I think the average Mormon is a good, kind, thoughtful, law-abiding citizen. So, you know, for sure I want to make that clear because that's not at all what I'm saying. Now, there are a lot of really good comments coming in, and a few of them I've flagged because I think they're worth mentioning. The first is around light and dark. While this idea of raiding people's lightness or darkness, I would say is not particularly Orthodox Mormon. The idea of a light countenance and a dark countenance backed up by the spirit. And Mormons being able to like, wow, you have a dark spirit, your countenance is darker or your countenance is lighter.

That's absolutely core Mormon doctrine and theology. And you could not convince me otherwise. Agreed. That's one example of what Chad's building on. Kila Queen B writes, Visions of Glory needs to be disowned by the LDS Church. We do want to mention the book, Visions of Glory. The author is attributed to John Pontius, but we know that. that that's actually, what's the day?

Tom Harrison. And, you know, that is the number one sold nonfiction book in Utah for 2023 on Thrift. Is it Thrift Books? Is that the name? And again, someone else mentions that book has not been disowned by the Mormon Church. And as far as we know, Tom Harrison is still in good standing with the church. And of course, we all know that Chad and Lori had their visions of Glorybook under their knee, under Lori's knee at the pool side in Hawaii when she was, when they were first approached by police. Is that right? Yeah, correct.

Maven wants to say that the idea of killing for God can be rooted in the Abrahamic story of Abraham being asked to sacrifice his son Isaac. And while that story didn't, you know, God didn't ask Abraham to go through with that, it does introduce the idea of what's called an Abrahamic sacrifice. And in Mormon theology, there is violence and there has been violence attributed to God's command. And you could argue the Old Testament has that as well. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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shares a lot of these similar types of beliefs as Chad and Lori. and I think that's important. I think it's also important to mention Ruby Frankie. One Not Stress mentions Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrand. Those are other true crime Mormon stories that we believe are kind of cut out from the same cloth. And we've covered that in previous episodes. Wolf rights, thanks for the Super Chat, Wolf Visions or Visions of Glory,

more like collusionations of horror. Thank you for the Vids, Lunch Vids, Lauren. So that's a shout out to your lunch vids. Also, thanks Wolf for the super chat really quickly. 40 love style rights. Mormon beliefs make it easy to jump to what Chad and Lori believe. And I would say it's not easy to jump to murdering your spouse and kids, but we're seeing a lot of Mormon-based true crime,

and we've got to talk about it. And that's what we're trying to do. And then, yeah, we're going to be talking about the Church of the Firstborn in a minute. Okay, so I think that's a lot of the introduction. And yeah, I think we can jump into the video now unless you're, oh, Lauren, we're going to talk about some of the main players that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about the main players. And by the way, side note, did you hear that Tim Ballard is thinking of converting to Catholicism, though?

So look out Catholics. He's wearing a cross and everything. But part of that's because the Mormon church excommunicated him, right? No, I know. I'm just, I'm giving a warning. You know, there you go, Catholics. Yeah. FYI. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So main players, Chad Daybell is clearly the one on trial. He is the person here who we're all focused on, who we found JJ and Tiley in his yard. And then his wife, Tammy Daybell, died on October 19, 2019 in the, in their, He called 911, Chad did, and was found in their bed, deceased. And then later, she was deemed to have been a homicide. So, and that's in Rexburg, Idaho.

Lori Valo was from Arizona originally. Her husband Charles Valo died July 11th, 2019. It was a shooting by her brother, Alex Cox, that he claimed was in self-defense. They were never arrested and moved on. then that is when Lori moved to Rexburg, Idaho from Chandler, Arizona. And then once she moved, she had this group of friends, Melanie Gibb, is her best friend, her bestie, her sister from another mother. They were super tight bearing their testimony to each other all the time, believing that

they were sisters in a past probation or married to the same due to one lifetime. time. And then Melanie's Melanie Gibbs side guy, because she started having an affair kind of around the same time, was David Warwick. And he's a visionary as well. And then you have Lulema Pastenis. And she could control the elements. And she married Alex Cox, Lori's brother. And for two weeks before, then Alex ended up dying in a mysterious death. And then Chad Daybell was given everybody blessings right and left saying they would know when to go to the other side of the veil. That's important. Chad Daybell believed he had multiple near-death experiences and thus the veil that covers his memory from the heavens and the pre-existence opened up a crack and he could see into the heavens

and beyond. And thus everyone would go to him and clamor to him for answers. And then they all also believe that the second coming was on its way or the tribulations before. Before the second coming, they're all going to live in these tent cities. And they were all kind of spouse swapping at these preparing a people conferences and firm expos. And those come up in this trial too. Rod Meldrum hasn't come up, but he is the founder of the firm expo. And the firm expo has now come up. They went to that the day that JJ lost his life, little seven-year-old JJ and Rexberg.

And the preparing of people founders, Mike and Nancy James, they have a prepping conference. They've come up today. allegedly Mike, according to John Pryor, that's important to you. John Pryor is the attorney for Chad Daybell. And he is actually saying today that Mike and Nancy James, who started the preparing of people conferences and are just beloved people, that Mike was saying that Nancy was dark. That was a thing today that came out. So they're all calling each other dark.

They're all kind of saying they were married to each other in past lives. kind of call them this is they all have near-death experiences and then other players in the trial so we'll get to that so again john prior is the defense attorney in this uh defending chad dabel and then you have the prosecution lindsay blake and rob wood and rocky wicksum so you've got three uh prosecution attorneys and it is wild in there and if i if i didn't paint that i don't know what can but it's a wild ride every day in the courtroom. I love it. I love it.

A couple quick points. I do also want to say, I think it's fair to say near-death experiences is either a very, let's just say it's a very common Mormon belief and that near-death experience books are very, very popular amongst Mormons. Am I being unfair there? I mean, whether it's Julie Rowe, whether it's Chad Daybell. No, yeah, that's,

fair. And you're Mormon stories. I'm true crime. So I also just, I guess my thing is always emphasize a Christian belief because again, you know, I don't want to let anyone, I want to make this noted. But, but yes, yes, you're right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And when I was a, when I was a true believing member in the church, I read Visions of Glory as a true believing member. I was super interested in near death experiences around that time. It was about around the 2010 to 2013 timeframe that a whole bunch of books came out by different authors, you know, all kinds of different Christian authors, not just Mormons, but there was sort of this fervor about that in the church

for a couple of years, at least among my community and, and among, obviously, among Lori's community as well. Love it. And then I'll add, thank you for that, Megan. And then I'll add this idea of spouse swapping or of, you know, spiritual wifery. Joseph Smith had over 30, wives, Brigham had over 50 wives, and this idea of spiritual marriages or just polygamous marriages, 100% Mormon doctrine, it's in Mormon scripture and nobody is going to convince this otherwise. I just wanted to know. I have a question for you about that, John. Yeah, go ahead.

Does every Mormon offshoot end up go into polygamy? Because it feels like it does. So, you know, there are offshoots in every religion, subgroups, whatever you want to call them, the extremists, I don't know. And it just feels like no matter which one it is in Mormondom, whether they are committing crime through blood atonement or, you know, sexual abuse, whatever, in the end, it all goes back to polygamy. And I'm wondering if that feels accurate or not. If you didn't have, if you picked, yeah, there is one.

If you picked the top 10 biggest Mormon offshoots, I would say eight out of 10, aside from the mainstream Church of Jesus Christ's Lattery Saints, eight out of the 10 would be the eight largest fundamentalist Mormon offshoots like the fundamentalist churches Jesus Christ of Lattery Saints or the AUB, the Apostolic United Brethren, or the All-Reds, or the Kingston's. And you can just go down the list of like the top fundamentals groups. They're all literally polygamist groups because they were started after the Mormon church stopped practicing polygamy, you know, in the early 1900s. And they're like, wait a minute, the prophets taught. It's in our scriptures. The prophets taught is required for salvation. And so that's how those groups were formed.

The one exception would be what used to be called the reorganized church of Jesus Christ, and they've changed their name to community of Christ. when they started maybe a couple decades after Joseph died, was started by Joseph's late wife, no, sorry, by Joseph's wife, Emma and her son, Joseph Smith, the third. And when they started the reorganized church, they claimed lied that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and that it was Brigham Young who started polygamy, but that it was never a part of the core church. We all know that's not true now. even the community of Christ or the reorganized church admits that they were wrong that

Joseph Smith absolutely was a polygamist. So I guess long story short, Lauren, is one out of the 10 probably wasn't a polygamist. Okay. That's right. Yeah, I love the community of Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

All right. So you told us who the judge, the judge's name you've already told us. Judge Boyce. Sorry, Judge Boyce is the judge. I actually just shared the counsel. But you told the prosecutors and the defendant. That's counsel, right? Correct.

Someone's telling me I'm yelling. Okay, I'll try not to yell. Thank you for that reminder. I'll back up. I don't like to yell. And also I will add that John Pryor did ask me to be a witness for Chad Daybell. And I asked my friend just thinking, oh, sure, I'll do it. And they're like, you do not want to give any excuse for Chad to be let off.

And then I'm like, okay, I won't do it. But I just thought it's an expert. Like what's wrong with just being an expert? But apparently that's not. Well, I know exactly now why. I know exactly where John Pryor is going. And I completely get why. Try I just say that I did a couple phone calls with John Pryor and he interviewed me.

And this is exactly what he asked me about. He's like, how Mormon are Chad and Lori's beliefs? And, you know, you know, he's basically saying that the church and its defenders are going to want to distance Chad and Laurie as much as possible. And he told me that part of his strategy is to sort of make sure people understand that Chad and Laurie are building on core Mormon beliefs. And so I'm not surprised he's going there because he interviewed me and I gave him my perspective

on all that. Well, here's a little tea then for you. This was spotted in court yesterday. during the last recess. And they were arguing that on the stand with Whitney, with, excuse me, with Melanie Gibb was on the stand.

That's, again, Lori Vallos Bestie who, um, who followed Chad's teachings or whatever it is. And he was questioning, um, Melanie Gibb about her beliefs in zombies and light and dark.

And kind of saying, well, isn't this what you believe in the LDS faith? And, and so last recess, afternoon recess is essentially like a potty break for all the, the jurors and everyone. And they're coming back in.

And John Pryor is handing Chad a book called No Unhollowed Hand. But it's a church of Jesus Christ, Lauderday Saints. I believe it's in the missionary library. It's a history of the church. And he had a little bookmark in it, a little orange sticky note. It looked like it was kind of stuck into the middle of the book. And then they also had another book written by Melanie Gibb, the witness as well, called Field of Fire.

And they certainly were trying to, I think, assess and point out where she certainly believed this without Chad Deba. Got it. Interesting. Fascinating. Any thoughts on that, Megan? Yeah, I think it's really interesting that no unhollowed hand is going to play a part in this. That's really interesting. I just, I mean, obviously John Pryor's got to do his job as a defense attorney to try and distance Chad, you know, from the, obviously from the allegations.

I just think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out. And hopefully the prosecution is, and I think they are already, they're doing a really good job of sticking to, you know, the narrative that this came from Chad. And I especially liked it that when Melanie Gib was on the stand, they talked about, you know, Melanie would testify that Chad would tell Lori and then Lori would tell Melanie. And so John Pryor kept focusing on the fact that, you know, all this came from Lori. it came from Lori, but the prosecution did a great job of pointing out that it was Chad who told Lori, and then Lori would just relay the instructions or whatever it was. So we'll see. All right.

All right. Well, it's time to jump to the slide. So we've gathered several clips, some from Lauren, some from Megan, and Herardo put some together as well. I've seen none of these. So I'm going to be viewing these for the very first time, and I'm going to be reacting authentically. John Dylan reacts. Yeah, John Dylan reacts. So let's go ahead and roll the first video and the title of it.

Herado prepared some speaking notes. John Pryor presents Chad's defense and then Herardo writes, Blame it on Lori. So that's how Herardo titled this first clip. So let's roll the clip. We have a situation where someone who's 21 years old, had a 21 years of America, Tammy Dave, on more discernible issues in its life.

And then Lori Valo comes in the picture, Miss Texas, with her testimony about this beautiful, vivacious woman, very sexual person, and very manipulently. And she knows how to get what she wants. And she drew Chad Daywell into a relationship and an unfortunate relationship, you know, to Chad and fellow fellowedging. After that, things started rolling, issues starting happening eventually yes there was a murder and there was a burial and you've heard discussion about the backyard of chad davelo we have a four and a half acre farm in fremont county iow and you'll hear testimony that the body of j j vallow was discovered behind an irrigation pond and a tree out in the pasture all right well i'll let's

let each of you give initial reactions. Lauren, why don't you go first on that one? I've got some questions, but why don't you start? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll start by making you proud, John. This is a very Mormon defense. Tell us why. I think I don't.

This is blaming it. This is purity culture 101. And this is the woman's fall. She was sexy. She was Mrs. Texas, excuse me, Mrs. Texas, or competing in Mrs. Texas.

She was a very sexual being. I think he kept saying that, you know, she liked sex. I mean, this is essentially, this is what we would call today, slot shaming. And really, Chad had no control over this vixen

who came into his life and he had no choice. left, but to just bury two children in his pasture. And then, of course, I want to point out the humor in how he's sort of setting this narrative of Chad having this vast landscape. He refers to an irrigation ditch and by the pasture, almost like he's a farmer out plowing the fields. No, no. Just so you know, this is a place where he could see both burial sites from his kitchen and his bedroom window. But I think we also see what he's attempting to do there imply that Chad could have no idea that two children were burnt and dismembered

and buried in his yard. Yeah. I mean, we can sometimes we laugh at this stuff, but it's obviously not funny. In terms of the, and I'miga, I want to get you in on this as well, in terms of the evidence that we have, and I guess we're going to play it, but is there good evidence that that Chad was an instigator or even maybe more of an instigator than Lori? What's your, either your analysis of what the evidence you've reviewed

so far seems to convey in terms of like who? Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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ORA gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Who was, you know, pursuing who and who was manipulating you? Maybe I'll let you answer and then I'll come back to you learn. Yeah, when the text, when we get to the text message portion of the trial, it's pretty undeniable. Chad was, you know, as they say, driving the bus on this one. You know, he, he was the one relaying the dark percentages. Lori was the one asking him, how dark are they now, you know, sort of

conveying some impatience that Tammy wasn't dark enough yet. And, you know, Chad was the one who was relaying all of that information. So to me, that's really the main thing that proves more than anything that he was the one who was really directing everybody, all the parties involved, as to what their role was and what they should be doing. I also think the patriarchal blessing that he gives to Alex is a huge indicator of that because I know that John Pryor is going to try to say that Alex acted on his own. In fact, he's already implied that. He implied it a little bit in his opening statement where he said that, you know,

Alex was Lori's protector and he had a past history of protecting his sister. And that that's what he was doing in this case. and that Chad should be afraid for his life. And essentially, so he's going to try to throw it all on Alex. But when Chad gives his patriarchal blessing to Alex, it's very clear that Chad is telling him what to do. And Chad is the one giving him instruction. So I think there is compelling evidence. I love it.

And Lauren, I'll let you close this slide out. But I will just agree that whether it's the Mormon Temple ceremony that's got Eve, tempting Adam with the apple, you know, or just lived everyday experience, you know, where, you know, so often women, and historically Mormon women have experienced church discipline for some sort of inappropriate sexual relationships where men somehow inexplicably got off the hook. Or just the idea of Mormon modesty culture, where women have to dress modestly. the Mormon women have to dress modestly because they're the ones that tempt men and it's women's job to police the morality of a young man or of a man. That's all very, very Mormon.

Lauren, we'll give you the last word before we jump to the next slide. Yeah. There are three Lori Vallow jurors that I've now become close to. In other words, three people who did their civic duty last year and ended up having to listen to weeks and weeks of Lori Vallow's entire trial sat there and had to decide her fate. They're now fully invested. And I watched them from afar last year. You know, I watched them with tears in their eyes as they looked at autopsy photos of these

children. So they're invested in justice and they're sitting there now every day in Chad's trial as just public. And I've asked each of them if they, were had to during that trial convict Chad would they have with the evidence they saw at Lori's trial

and they have all said yes absolutely they see him as the evidence against Lori just as equally damning against Chad and it seems pretty clear to me and has always been very clear to me that Chad was that again this is Chad Davis

Bell's belief system, that he is the one that created the light and dark scale, which is what each person had to fall dark on before they were murdered. Thank you. Love it. And I'll just clear the record on one thing, too. Lori was not Miss Texas. She competed in the Mrs. Texas pageant. And I think it's just an example of John Pryor taking a little snippet of information and stretching

it to fit his narrative, right? making Lori out to be way worse than she was in some cases, way better than she was in some cases, all in an effort because she's already been convicted to try and distance Chad from everything that happened. Makes sense. All right, y'all are given such great perspective and we're loving the comments coming in.

Please do like this episode. Please do subscribe to any of the channels you're joining and subscribe to each other's channels as well. That helps the algorithms. That helps us grow with, thanks to all the people who donate to what we do. That makes it possible. And we're always grateful for the super chats when they come.

All right. Let's go to the next slide. This is having to do with Chad's daughter. And to what extent is she bothered that bodies were found in the backyard? And I want to give credit to Serious, seriolisly podcast on TikTok for this clip. find the human remains. That's what they told me, that they found human remains.

And I said, well, there are several dogs that have been buried there. And he said, respectfully, I can tell the difference with human remains. And I asked, where was it? And he said, over by the pond under that tree. And it was in the ground and had boards over it. And I can see in your face that surprised here. He told me that what they're looking at is that they found one body with the probable cause, there's likely to.

So I asked, are you going to search the property forever until it's found? And he said, well, no, but we're going to look. And he said, because I said, what about this is the home for my siblings? And there's a baby. And he said, if you're not able to get back in tonight, we'll hook them up to the hotel. Is Emma part of Chad's Colt? Why is she not screaming from the rooftops? Why would human remains be found in your backyard?

It is so bizarre to me. She just brushes it off like it's no big deal. And she's acting like it's inconceivable for the police to be on the property while they search for Tiley's remains. She's crying to her dad talking about money, about finances, about Chad's mortgage. Like, make it make sense. Wow. All right, Megan, let's let you respond first if you've got anything you want to share in response to that video. Yeah, it's deeply disturbing.

And I think that the answer to this, and this is actually was Lauren's explanation, but she and I have talked about this. is that Chad is a very controlling person. And he very likely prepared his children with a narrative that was going to make sense prior to the remains being found. We know that he sent a text to Tammy telling Tammy that he had shot and buried a raccoon on the property on the day, actually, that one of the children was buried. And so he sort of sets up these stories in advance so that when the truth comes out, he has something plausible to fall back on. And you'll notice his reaction to Emma telling him that there were human remains found on the property. He doesn't really say much. He just says, hmm.

And then later on in that video, which got played in court, he just changes the subject and goes on to finances. And so it's just this very manipulative way of redirecting the narrative. And it just, it's so, it's infuriating to me because having lived in an environment where, I was controlled for a really long time. Seeing that kind of behavior just makes me so angry because those kids didn't ever have a chance at normalcy of any kind with Chad controlling them in that way. And it's going to take a lot to get them to a place where they can have healthy lives. Thanks, Megan.

Lauren, what's your perspective? First off, I love that I use Stereylusle's TikTok. The producer of that podcast is my court friend. So we will sit there and talk. And we, right after that, that was a bombshelled piece of evidence that nobody had seen before when they played that conversation between Chad and Emma in court and where they talked with one another that the day that the bodies, that the remains were found. And Chad was arrested in, was arrested, but had not yet been charged. And we said the same thing. We're like, how is, why is she not asking more questions?

like all of us in the courtroom agreed that if we were we just found out that remains human remains were found in the yard where we lived we are we would be like what what and if we thought our dad was innocent more importantly if we thought our dad was innocent we'd be like dad can you believe it what's going on like why are they here like we got to figure this out what do you think but chat just switches the subject to talking about finances because he's going away for a long time and she's just like, oh, yeah, yeah, you are. You're going away for a long time. So the question that Annie Elise, the host of Sirius Lee is asking, is she part of this cult? I would say yes. And I say that from multiple interviews that I have done with people that were

invested in Chad Daybell's belief system and Julie Roe's belief system. And they, that she was very much a part of this. She narrated Julie Rose books. She stood up for Julie Roe. That is someone that hasn't made it into the trial. But, you know, for those that don't know, Julie Roe is somebody who Chad Daibel was a book publisher and he published Julie Rose Near Death Experience books. And she sort of really had this similar belief system with Chad until he moved on to Lori. And, you know, and so I also have had other close associates of Chad that I've interviewed say how much she was involved. And I want to say yes. I think just like me, and says there's coercive control in this family, and it just shows how far and why these beliefs are.

I've also interviewed someone named Anna, who was part of this avow website, who said that Garth, the oldest, shared that when he learned that all of his dad's visions were actually real, and it's just sort of common knowledge that everybody believed him. And so my heart goes out to the children. I'm not blaming them for anything by saying that, but I would say that the children, Chad Daybell's children are very much a part of his cold. And if anyone more so than another, it would be Emma Daybal, who you heard there. And then she also said in that conversation that she was listening to the spirit.

And Chad encouraged her to just let God and Jesus Christ lead. Never mind, never mind the remains, but just listen to the spirit. And we'll see what's next according to Christ. Thank you, Megan and Lauren. I'll just add that one thing I observe sort of putting on my psychology hat, the more the high demand religion is, or the more cult-like a religion is. And I think you could argue that Chad and Lori had a cult mindset. We could debate about whether or not the Mormon Church qualifies as a cult. That is an offensive term. I try not to ever use it, but certainly Chad and Lori were at a cult mindset. But regardless, the more high

demand the religion is, the more I would argue that that high demand religion tries to nurture a cult identity where you're less encouraged to connect to what you feel and what you think inside, you're more trained to block off your emotions and what's important to you, and to assume the cult or the high demand religion identity. And then there's also the more cult-like or the more high demand or religion is, the more of an emphasis on obedience to authority and blind belief of an obedience to authority. And it would be my opinion, it would be my observation that Chad's daughter might be, you know, a victim of those types of

mentalities. Yeah, and speaking to... Sorry, didn't mean to talk over you. Speaking to the, you know, the patriarchy of the, you know, the Mormon church and Mormon families in general. And speaking from the experience of, you know, having to do this myself, it's so incredibly difficult to get to the place where you can accept that someone in your family has done something this horrible. And so I'm talking about Emma Daybell, add on top of that that her father is the leader of their family, that you want to trust your father, you want to be submissive to his, you know, you want to be obedient to him because he's the leader. He's the one who's, you know, sets the groundwork for the family system. And add on top of that coercive control, I mean, it's almost impossible to overcome all three of those things and get to the place where you really believe that it's even possible for your dad to do something like that.

Yeah, good point. Thank you, Megan. All right. Let's go, let's go to the next slide, where I believe Chad's daughter talks about following the spirit. And Chad says it will be in the Lord's hands. Yeah, they'll let you move out of there. You just get over here. I think it got it's still for I didn't know I didn't know how it all I felt like I needed to learn more and now I get it so yeah this is essentially a house

and we'll talk to Joan prior about the financial arrangement but you should be for a while I think long enough to get on our speed I have a lot in that accounts with the other attorneys. So that will take care me for a while. And maybe we just do a refinance on the house or a home equity loan.

I don't think it's going to break it. I think that might be an option. I might need to authorize putting you on the mortgage. It just probably leave Joe off. Yeah. Yeah, keep me on it with you. And you have accounts like that when you're in jail?

I don't know. I guess this is the part you get to get to someone else. Well, actually Spring Creek Book Company's office. So we'll manage it that way. that way. You can send you a package. And you have a night,

you can send things through Amazon to the jail. Yeah. So like I couldn't send you a package, but Amazon, if I ordered it through there, it could get to you. Yeah. I'll only do that as you ask for stuff. Do we think we've covered the main?

Lori would know the Amazon again. I'll talk to it. Yeah. Well, she just said she's going to talk to Lori. She'll talk to Lori. I think that was... So don't pay... We'll get it figured out.

It's like Cholo and Leavena. Same as I love to... I thought about... I haven't yet to be the right time. So do you think we've got the... I think, yeah. I don't know if they're not... I think so.

I think so. Okay. Keep in mind that, again, again, they just found human remains in their yard and this is the conversation. It's like happening. They're preparing and talking about finances while she's realizing her dad's going away forever, which my heartbreak, she's crying. She has so much longing in her voice and her mother is now dead.

Her mother's been dead for, you know, less than a year and now this. And so my heartbreak. Yeah, they move out of there. their conversations around finances and she says for those wondering what she was saying about the spirit she said that she felt that she was going to move and she just didn't know why she lives across the street at this moment from the house she grew up in. Chad's living in the house he grew up in where the bodies are and she said I just felt like I was going to need to move. I didn't understand why and now I understand just so everybody knows where she ended up moving is back. to this house where the bodies were found. So she moved back into her childhood home.

Yeah. And let's not forget that right before this happened, so Chad is in the back of a police vehicle. Right before this happened, he was, you know, standing near his vehicle, sitting in his vehicle, kind of looking over his shoulder, you know, nervous the whole time that law enforcement is looking in the backyard. And as soon as they find the spot where JJ is buried, Chad takes off in the car and he leaves his children behind. So Emma was there at the house with law enforcement and Chad just took off while law enforcement intercepted him a little ways down the road and then they brought him back, put him in the back of the cop car. So this is Emma coming to the cop car after her dad has already fleed the scene of them finding these human remains. And the other part I wanted to say was

when Chad, she's, they're talking about Amazon packages, right? And Chaz says, well, Lori will know the account information. And then Emma says, yeah, I've been talking to her. So Emma's been talking to Lori in prison and ostensibly kind of views her as a mother figure. At one point, she was saying that Lori was helping her grieve. And, you know, they're casually talking about James loves Elena at iCloud.com is the email address associated with the Amazon package. So I find all that pretty disturbing. Okay. Thanks, Megan. We have a second slide. And by the way, these clips are coming from the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel. So shout out to Lauren and John for that. Megan, there's a second similar slide that's a little that's shorter. Yeah. I want to set this one up.

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This is chatting. again. We're okay, Dad. We're okay. With your wallet. Glad you got that. Right. Get that money out of there.

Probably just put it in your own personal account. That's good, John. I don't have the cash, I'm just going to note, I'll just make an observation. He's kind of got this voice that I would identify is kind of this Mormon, patriarch, almost patriarchal voice that's kind of flat

and kind of monotone. And it's not, you know, that's that's not my dad. But moving to Utah, I don't know, there's a, there's a strand of kind of Orthodox Mormonism in Utah, Idaho, maybe Arizona that's got kind of that flat kind of like, you know, go to the store, get to wallet. Like the daughter's crying and he's like, yep, it's a little bit country. I think we'll go and get the wallet and everything's going to. And it's soothing and kind of flat. I don't know. That's just there. There's definitely a Mormon cadence. Yeah. Kethe's the way that he speaks. Yeah. That's a great way to the way I explain it again to the serialist least producer that's sitting next to me because She's asking questions.

She's asking our Mormon questions. I, in my opinion, this voice is absolutely Mormon. And I think it comes from, as I explain it, like, you don't walk into a Mormon ward, a very bombastic, loud guy and think that, you know, you're going to be the most loved dude in the room. Maybe in some cultures, but not in Mormonism. them. They value men who are meek and humble and rule with a soft voice. And I do think it's cultural. And I think that because that's what's valued, when you have someone that might, for example, be a personality disorder or narcissistic, you're going to get less bombastic and more covert in the LDS faith because those are the people that really shine in their wards. in their neighborhoods and villages and people trust them.

And I think they're men of God. And that's why you see the same voice with Warren Jeffs. And Chad Dable, they're not the loud, booming preacher voices. There's a different value system when it comes to Mormonism. And it's not, anyway, those are my thoughts. Yeah, we're getting a lot of good comments coming in. I'll just read a few of them. So Fun to ski rights, stay sweet.

And that's a reference to Warren Jeff's. And the way he used to sort of in a monotone droney voice, keep his polygamous wives under control. I think he had stay sweet written on his shoes. And he put his shoes up on the desk. And they would say stay sweet. And that's how he would tell us, keep his polygamous wives in line if they were complaining.

Somebody is saying that Kevin Frankie's voice is similar. I'm not sure if that's true. That's just what someone believes. Scramble Egg writes, it's hypnotic. Somebody makes the joke instead of monotone that Kelly J writes, it's Mormon tone. I don't think I have a voice like that. I feel very Mormon. So I'll say I don't think everyone is that way.

Xanax voice, flat affect, honeybee writes, I live in Utah, and I definitely agree, John, that Mormon voice is undeniable. And again, we've got to vote for Warren Jeff's voice. You might not have that voice completely, but, but here's my butt, but, but you were also not aiming or eyeing maybe a climb in leadership or putting all of your stock in, I mean, maybe you were, correct me if I'm wrong, putting all your stock and maybe moving up the ranks or really trying to highlight that you were the best Mormon dude out there. But there are some cultural things I think I see with you, John, too, where you, you know,

you're very understanding, you're listening. I just, I really think, you know, I am married to a non-Morman man who grew up in Chicago. So everything's new to him. Okay. So maybe that's where I'm coming from. I, you know, and I grew up with four brothers. So, Kale Conley, S.L. Conley writes, you have hints, John. You do have hints.

You do. Oh, it's good. You do. You don't have the general conference voice, but again, you're not trying to talk like you're listening to the spirit. you're the most righteous person in the room. And if you are that guy and you're trying to really be a gatherer of the 144,000, you're not going to do that again with an iron fist. You are, the iron fist is hidden under the covert, soft spoken voice.

But again, you don't walk into a Mormon ward with a loud, booming voice and think you're going to, it's reverence. It's about reverence and meekness and humility. That is the culture. It's not the loud preacher and the rock music. It's soft hymns. And that's Mormonism. And there's a scripture in the doctrine and covenants.

Yes, women are put on a pedestal and men are told that if you are not meek and humble and amen to the priesthood and the authority of that man. And that's their threat. So get in line and use your general conference voice if you want to move up the ranks. There's my tip for all you Mormon men listening. there's no loud laughter allowed and uh i actually had a bishop was it was one of my favorite bishops for a long time who was that loud boisterous personality and he got told pretty often by his higher ups that that he needed to calm that down yeah yeah well there is you know the temple denunciation of loud laughter and evil speaking lord's anointed uh ali who says john i bet if you

started praying, you'd fall into meek Mormon man voice. That's probably true. And I will say, I was, you know, my dad's from Salt Lake and my mom's from Idaho. So it's got to be in there. So I'll own it. My grandpa was a bishop in Pocatello, Idaho, and he had that soft voice. I loved it. You know, it felt comforting to me, too. I have to say, you know, so, but it's a thing. It's definitely a thing. People do tell me that sometimes they listen to Mormon stories to help them fall asleep. So I try not to feel offended by that. All right.

Let's go ahead and jump to the next slide. This has been fun. Now I feel self-conscious about my voice. And let's play the next clip. This is the introduction to the patriarchal blessing. Chad gave to Alex. And the prosecution's detective is on the stand. So let's roll it.

Do you listen to that blessing at some point? I did. And do you know who was giving the blessing? Chad Daybell. Do you know who he was giving the blessing to? Alex Cox. Are you familiar with what faith the patriarchal blessings are attached to? I am. And what faith is that? With the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It's a stake patriarch that gives that blessing. So it's a specific calling someone has within the LDS faith to be able to give those blessings to another person?

Yes, it is. And Chad did not hold that calling. My understanding, he did not. Chad Daybell, it is November 24th, 2019, Sunday afternoon, 5.15 p.m. We're going to give Alex Lamar Cox a patriarchal blessing. Alexander Lamar. Alexander Lamar Cox. On this special day, I lay my hands upon your head

to give you a patriarchal blessing. As part of a member of the Church of the Firstborn, that you have earned the privilege to be a member of, I do so by the power of the Melchesee priesthood, which I hold, and in the name of Jesus Christ, our Savior, who is authorized this blessing. I'm just grateful that you're receiving it as you move forward in your life. You have the house of Israel of the 12 tribes,

and you are a descendant of Joseph through the tribe of Ephraim, which grants you many blessings, particularly of spreading the gospel in these latter days and protecting and preserving those who seek to learn the truth. And that has been your mission on this earth, and it will now expand into ways that we will discuss furthering the blessings. All right. I'm just going to really quickly say that it appears that what the prosecutor wants to do, tell me if I'm wrong, or the witness is basically trying to say, oh, no, no, patriarchal blessings are only done by a patriarch. So this is fringe, weird, non-approved, unorthodox Mormon stuff. Is that right? Is that what the witness is trying to say?

More specific than that. They're trying to show that Chad, again, he is the leader of this crew, giving direction through blessings. Yeah. Don't you feel like that, Megan, it's more than just saying this is or isn't church. They certainly shared that,

that like Chad wasn't a patriarch and he's giving this what looks to be a patriarchal blessing, but I think they're trying to show that he was kind of calling, the shots through spiritual manipulation. Megan? Yeah, that sounds right to me for sure. This is the prosecution's exhibit and the witness on the stand is the one who prepared

the report that includes the patriarchal blessing. So they're questioning him about it. Yeah. And the witness on the stand right now is a law enforcement from Arizona, who was actually born and raised in the church for 18 years, but left when he was 18. the witness. And just my quick reaction is that while it's absolutely true that an Orthodox LDS church member or Mormon would never be giving a patriarchal blessing unless they were specifically given the call to be a patriarch. And there's only one of those in every, let's just say,

in a thousand or more active Mormons, there's one patriarch. So it's a relatively rare calling. What Mormons do do all the time, active faithful Mormon men, specifically who have the priesthood, is they'll give priesthood blessings or father's blessings, where they absolutely would give an identical blessing, you know, in the sense of the types of things they say, the voice they use, the hands on the head, the priesthood channeling the Holy Ghost, and the channeling what God supposedly is saying. That happens all the time. My dad did it to me. I did it to my kids. Every single, you know, almost every Mormon kid in the U.S.

before they go off to high school or college, gets a father's blessing from their dad if he's active and faithful. And if a kid's sick, they'll get that blessing with the hands on the head, the priesthood blessing. So it's a step two away in the sense that it wasn't authorized. but then again, if Chad has been taught to feel that if the Holy Ghost tells him it's okay, and that's his feelings, it's okay, then what allows it is that he just believes he's following the Holy Ghost because those thoughts and thoughts and feelings come into his mind. So it's only a step or two away. That's my argument.

And y'all can disagree with me or if you have different views, I want to hear it. Oh, no, yeah. Here's a secret. I'll tell the secret. Only Mindy Caldwell knew this. So last year I was sitting at the Lori Vallow trial with Mindy Caldwell, who often hosts these daybill episodes with us. And they,

Hey, Minnie. And they, we were sitting next to each other and they played this blessing. And it was the first time anyone had heard it. We had read it in some evidence dumps, but never heard it. We didn't know they had a recording until this moment. And it's over 20 minutes when they play it in court. And it was absolutely chilling. it took my breath away because it did sound so authentic like a blessing you would hear in church.

And so I was totally immersed in it feeling it chills to my bone, like frightened. Like I'm not like thinking it was sweet. I was just like, I can't believe this. I feel sick. It was like this moment of realization thinking Chad really believes this. You know, I was just feeling every feeling. And then Chad says, in the name of Jesus Christ, after 20 minutes, Chad says, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. And what did I do? I said amen in the entire courtroom. And everybody turned around and looked

at me and I was mortified. I was like, I can't believe I just said that. Because it was just such a natural response to hearing this. And I wasn't even thinking it was happy or good, but just I was just so into it. And everybody turned like, who just said amen? And some people might be like, I knew I heard that. I was just grateful to get picked up on the microphone. But, That's just how authentic it sounds that I said amen. Yeah, and true believing Mormons will say that, you know, Chad is being blasphemous here because he does not hold the office of a patriarch. He has not been ordained to be a patriarch. And that's a special calling, a special designation that, you know, you're given so that you have the special power to give patriarchal blessings to people.

and the patriarchal blessing is supposed to be a guide for your life. It tells you sometimes, you know, what your profession might be or it hints at it, or it tells you whether or not you're going to have kids, and it tells you whether or not you're going to have struggles in your life or things like that. And it's this crazy thing because a lot of people make decisions, major, major life decisions based on what is in those patriarchal blessings. And so it can be, you know, depending on, on who you get as your patriarch.

But it's also really interesting that they have a lot of similarities to them. And you're not supposed to share your patriarchal blessing with anyone. They're supposed to be very private and very personal. You're supposed to just keep them to yourselves. And you're not supposed to really talk about them. Well, what we find out when people start talking about them is how similar they are. Yeah. The other thing I'll add is that I think about my faithful.

sister who's got an active faithful priesthood holding husband. Whenever she's having a really bad time in her life or really needs guidance or insight, she'll ask her husband to give her a priesthood blessing. He'll lay his hands on her head. And he'll sound exactly like Chad sounds and tell her prophetic things, tell her what she ought to consider, maybe even point her in a certain direction, maybe even tell her what she should do. and I don't think my sister's alone.

My sister's very Orthodox and even somewhat progressive Mormon, I think, in many ways. So that felt very familiar to me. He just shouldn't have called it a patriarchal blessing. Right. Yeah. The other thing I just want to ask, Lauren, do you remember the date of the welfare check on JJ? It was right before Thanksgiving, because then the, then they raided the apartment right after, and that was Thanksgiving weekend.

I'm trying to remember if it was November 24th or November 26th, because the date of this patriarchal blessing is November 24th. And go ahead. No, you go ahead. Go ahead. I was just going to say I spoke to Larry shortly after this was brought out in Lori's trial, and his comment to me was that patriarchal blessing was that man's last rights. Yeah, well, let's point this out too. Thank you for bringing that up. That could have been done the moment that they did the welfare check. And Chad had an oh shit moment.

Excuse me, but I mean, he wouldn't call it that. Chad had a, oh, no, what does the spirit want for me now moment? A fetch moment. Yeah. And, you know, so they knew that they were going to, Chad and Lori were probably taken off to Hawaii. Because that's what they did before the, before they came and, you know, raided the house, the townhouse with search warrants. right after the welfare check.

And then I want to point out that two weeks after this blessing, it was December 13th, I believe. Correct me if I'm a day or two wrong. Alex died on December 12th, right? Yes, Tammy was exhumed. Tammy's body was exhumed on December 11th. And Alex died on December 12th. Okay, so take away my December 13th date.

So December 11th is when Tammy Daybell's body is exhumed. So just a couple weeks after this blessing. And then Alex, the very next morning, calls Chad and Lori in Hawaii, receives a blessing from Chad over the phone, and then he dies. The day after Tammy Daybell's bodies exhumed, which was essentially the beginning of a massive investigation across states, was they exhumed Tammy Daybell's body. Wouldn't you say, like when they really amped up and were about to share

with the world that two children were missing? Yeah, and it's in the patriarchal blessing, Chad tells Alex that you have already given us. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you. everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

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Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Service that is invaluable and then basically tells him that you'll know when it's time to go to the other side. Correct. Yeah. And that is the most important part of that blessing is thank you for saying that, Megan, is Chad Daybill says to Alex. And he talks about his entire future and marriage, just like a patriarchal blessing would and his future and who he's going to save. And now and the hereafter, but he says, you're going to know when it's your time to go to the other side.

Two weeks later, I guess he knew. Yep. All right. Thanks, y'all. The next slide is sort of a titled, Prosecution Interrogating Investigator or Detective about Patriarchal Blessing and Church of the First Board. So this is the introduction of this teaching or belief of Chad and Lurys about the Church of the Firstborn. And then after this, we'll talk about whether that is in any way of Mormon doctrine or a fringe Mormon doctrine. So let's roll the tape.

Detective Duncan, when you listen to that, could you hear a female also? Yes. Do you know who that female was? I'm going to object without some proper foundation. sustained. Based on your investigation, did you ever hear the voices of any other individuals involved in this case? Yes, I did. Did you ever hear the voice of Lori Valo? Yes, I did. Do you know, based on that, did you recognize the female voice within that blessing? I believe that voice to be Lori Ballow.

In that blessing, were there certain things that stood out to you? There was a lot. First off the date, November 24th, that is spoken, 2009. by Chad. And the other thing that stood out was at the beginning when he mentions that Alex is part of the church of the firstborn that stood out to me. And then second and their third, sorry, is in there talking about how he had already helped us more than they could repay him. And breaking that down a little bit with regard to the church of the firstborn, is that affiliated with the eligible? to the best of your knowledge. Judge, I'm going to object unless there's some foundation.

And Your Honor, if I may respond. Go ahead. I'm happy to lay more foundation, but I think I've already asked this officer previously on a similar objection if he looked into the LDS faith and is familiar with some of the terms used. So I think we have laid foundation for purposes of the investigation. Judge, that's a pretty broad statement. Well, if you'll re-ask the question, I thought you were talking about a different church.

So go ahead. Through the investigation, and are you familiar with whether or not the Church of the Firstborn is affiliated with the LDS Church? It's my understanding, but the two are not affiliated. Is that why it caught your attention? Yes. All right. Any of all want to give context of what you know about the Church of the Firstborn and what the heck they're talking about here? Well, I do have some thoughts on the Church of the Firstborn.

born that in particular i um served my mission in kirtland ohio so church history and the doctrine and covenants majority of the doctrine and covenants is written in uh curtland ohio uh i've actually oddly read the doctrine covenants more than the book of mormon i think it's kind of interesting that's just because it's like written in the 1800s and uh the church of the firstborn is written about a lot in the doctrine and covenants as christ's church um What I was taught about it or understood that was that in essentially heaven that you're not going to really need an earthly church anymore and everyone will be part of the church of the firstborn, meaning everyone would be part of Christ's church. Church. Christ is the firstborn.

That's how I had always taken it personally until this Chad and Lori Daybill case. So there's my personal experience with it. It was something that actually, something, yeah, I had actually studied and thought about. And to me was, you know, one day there won't really be any churches, we'll just be part of Christ's church. That's what I thought it meant in the Doctrine and Covenants. All right. Megan, anything you want to add about Church of the Firstborn? Then I'll add a couple things.

Sure, yeah. I mean, this was kind of an aha moment for me when I heard this in the last trial because I realized that this was kind of what Chad is calling his church. And I know that it has, you know, some Mormon connotations, of course, but when I heard it in the patriarchal blessing, I was like, oh, crap, it's a whole church. Like, there are more people like this out here. He's not, this is not just a little group of cult members. Like, there are other people. He's trying to form his own church. And it was, it was just kind of shocking for me. I know that doesn't have to do with the Mormon theology of it.

Okay. And then what I wanted to do as well is just share a few, just references. So the first that Herardo prepared for us, Heaven Bless Herrardo. We have here just a screenshot from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' website. I'm 100% certain that Herardo screenshoted this today. and here are several references to Church of the Firstborn. It says celestial heirs are Church of the Firstborn, and it's quoting Mormon scripture,

doctrine and covenant 76. And it says, Telestual heirs will not be caught up to Church of the Firstborn. That is also in D&C 76. And then it says, As many come will be brought to Church of Firstborn. That's Doctrine and Covenants Section 77. And then 78 says,

year church of firstborn. So that's three different sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, which is Mormon scripture. And then a fourth is Doctrine of Covenants 88, where it says celestial glory is glory of Church of Firstborn. And Section 93 is those who are begotten through Christ our Church of First Board. If I'm five or six now, sections. And then Section 107 says priesthood to commune with Church of First Board. So I mean, that's like seven or references in core Mormon scripture. So I think it's going to be hard for people to argue that that teaching is fringe. It's clear that that's core Mormon doctrine if it's in doctrine and covenant. So by the way, according to Mormon doctrine, Jesus himself revealed the doctrine and

covenants to Joseph Smith. So those are Jesus's words according to Mormon belief. So I think that's worth sharing. And then just for fun, I saw someone reference Joseph Fielding Smith's doctrines of salvation. Joseph Eilding Smith was not only Mormon church historian for many decades. He was one of the prophets, seers, and revelators for the Mormon church, and he was viewed as one of the key scriptorians of Mormonism. And his books, Doctrines of Salvation, volumes one, two, and three were available when I was a missionary.

I was allowed to read them as a missionary. I did read them multiple times as a missionary in English and Spanish. And so this is absolutely approved Mormon stuff. And so I just have a full text version of just volume two of Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. And if I tip in Church of the Firstborn, there are 10 references just in volume two of Joseph Fielding Smith's Doctrines of Salvation. And I'll just read from it. There's a section on page, I think, 246, called the Church of the Firstborn. And it says, exalted beings belong to Church of Firstborn.

Those who gain exaltation in the celestial kingdom are those who are members of the Church of the Firstborn. In other words, those who keep all the commandments of the Lord, there will be many who are members of the Church of Christ of the United States, who shall never become members of the Church of the Firstborn. It talks about the higher ordinances in the Temple of God, pertaining. to exaltation to be required to be in the Church of the Firstborn. And then it goes on to say, obedience to the laws and the ordinances and the covenants required of those who desire to become members of the Church of the Firstborn,

as these are administered in the House of the Lord. And then how to join the Church of the Firstborn, Joseph Fielding Smith writes, The Lord has made it possible for us to become members of the Church of the Firstborn by receiving the blessings of the House of the Lord and overcoming all things. Thus we become heirs. Priests and kings who have received of his fullness and of his glory,

who shall dwell in the presence of God and His Christ forever and ever with full exaltation. Priests and kings and probably priestesses and queens. I don't know. Does any of that language resonate with the Chad and Lori and sort of Mormon proper? All of it. All of it. Really? To give, yeah, but I, yeah, all of it.

This is exactly where they got it, which is, which is what I think we're pointing out that, but, but I want to clarify, because again, I don't want to give Chad Daybel a pass and say this is what every, you know, this is, I mean, Chad Debel, you know, believes in a, we, Mormons all believe in a veil, but only Chad Debel somehow, well, not only, but somehow Chad Debel thinks that he could go in for brain surgery at a hospital and the doctor would open up his brain and find a veil that he could maybe stay. He's so literal is my point. So I want to point out that, you know, take me as an example, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I saw the Church of the Forceburn as like heaven. Chad Debel is reading the exact same thing, which makes complete sense.

This is exactly how he lays it out for Lori, exactly that they're going to be kings and creeds, but he sends Lori an email with seven missions on it and says that it is our duty to establish this literal church. of the firstborn. I guess I just don't want to give a cult leader any escape here. He also created a system himself where people believed him and he, you know, did things with this that most would never do. Yeah. But it's absolutely Mormon theology, but not all Mormons can be like, oh, I met a hot girl who was Mrs. Texas, I'm going to write her and say, by the way, it's our duty to, you're going to be my queen and my heiress to the church of the firstborn. It's our duty to start this church before

the call out. I just don't want to give them a pass, is what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And while while Chad takes it to 11 or 12 or 13 or 20, the Mormon church also, I think part of what we all feel very passionate about is that there are all these weird, twisted doctrines or theologies or obscure doctrines or theologies that either Joseph Smith said or Brigham Young said, or they're in the journal of discourses or Bruce Armacconke said it, Mormon doctrine, or Cleon Scalzin or Joseph Fielding Smith, or visions of glory, or they're in the scriptures. Take your pick. What the Mormon church could absolutely do is like clarify it and say,

No such thing as zombies. Visions of Glory is a bad book. Tom, Tom, you know, Tom, what's his last name on? What? Harrison, Tom Harrison, you're actually communicated. Like, stop this garbage about Church of the Firstborn. It's all made up. Like, they could go to a general conference where they speak to literally all the members in the world twice a year and they could just shut this crap down. And I just restrained by swearing. They can cut this all down in a single general conference if they wanted to, but they allow this stuff to continue years and years and even decades beyond where the cat gets out of the bag. That's my opinion. Can I just share this a comment? I saw Rabbit as saying Hidden True Crime T-shirts and other Church of the First Born merchandise now for sale. Use promo code Chad for 10% off. That's fake, but you better believe that I'm not.

going to have some Church of the Firstborn merch ready for you guys next week. I'll get it's done. We also hit 144,000 subscribers this week. And I thought, how ironic. Take that, Chad. Take that. Sorry. Sorry.

May you double or triple that. Megan, any final words before we go on to the next slide? Yeah, it's all just super troubling to me because it's there, it is. There's blurred lines between both things. And it's so easy to see where, you know, Chad and Lori sort of formulated these things and then took it off into the direction that suited them because they're just in this confirmation bias loop of thinking that, you know, God is telling them things. And, you know, it's conveniently what exactly what they want to hear. So it's just super disturbing to me. It's all rooted in in this Mormon doctrine, but also like you were saying, Lauren, Chad took it to the direction that he really wanted to go with it, which was.

you know, just to whatever it was Lori wanted, you know, that's, that's how he, you know, tailored it to suit her, but, you know, certainly had these, um, these beliefs in place before she ever came around, you know. And I don't think I'm spoiling anything by saying that he also had a pendulum, a little owl necklace that he, you know, would dangle. And depending on which way it went, you know, was what, whatever prediction that he would make and come out. And so that's kind of like his, I guess his version of a searstone, you know. Right. Really quickly, I'm just going to, I'm going to kind of do a little bit of a public service announcement,

but for the benefit, I think, of all of us. Heron wanted to be to mention that we have a really good episode on Mormon Stories podcast in our LDS discussion series about Mormon patriarchal blessings. I think most Mormons, believing Mormons, would really benefit from watching this episode and listening to it. I think never Mormons would also very much value and enjoy it. We've got a series on our YouTube channel called LDS discussions. It's like 53 or 54 episodes now where we tackle Mormon Church truth claims from start to finish from Joseph Smith and his treasure digging, peep stone in the hat, book of Mormon translation, all the way through to modern things like

racism and skin of blackness and Mormon patriarchal blessings. I do want to encourage our Hidden True Crime and our, what is your new YouTube channel called, Megan? The YouTube channel is Third Verse. Our third verse and Hidden True Crime viewers, feel free to subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast channel and check out these episodes only because we think you're really a benefit from it. And I'm also going to say Mormon Stories Podcast, viewers and listeners, please go subscribe to Lauren and Megan's channel because we all share great.

great content that I think cross-pollinates well with each other's audiences. And it was Herato that asked me to do that public service announcement. And you know what? I do it basically whatever Herardo says. That's just the way I roll. And that's served me very well. Okay. So let's go ahead and go to the next slide. I believe in the next slide. The prosecution is interrogating the detective about patriarchal blessings. Prosecution insinuates. that Chad suspiciously predicted Alex's death. Anything y'all want to say before I play this clip? Nope, go for it.

Oh, I will say, I will say I couldn't put in a plug for the LDS discussion series. I found that series incredibly helpful. It was instrumental in helping me to sort of get to the place where I understood what was the real, what I was taught as compared to also, what was the true history that I hadn't known before. And so that was incredibly helpful to me. So thank you guys for doing that. Our pleasure.

Yeah. Thank you. It's a great work. And Mike from LDIS discussions is a gem. All right. Let's go ahead and play this next clip. And you talked about a statement in there that the statement was made already assisted us in ways that can never be repaid.

Correct. And again, Chad was giving the blessing. Correct. And it's your belief Lord was also present for the blessing. Yes. And then circling back, you said one of the other things that stood out to you was the date, November 24th of 2019. Yes. Do you know if Alex Cox is still alive?

Alex Cox is still alive during that time, yes. And do you know when he was, when he passed away? December of 2019. So just shortly after this? Yes. In the blessing, did you all? I also hear reference made, you will know when it's time to move to the other side. I did.

And that's Chad telling that to Alex. Correct. On November 24th of 2019 were Tiley and JJ missing? Yes, they were. And on November 24th of 2019 was Charles Vallow dead? Yes. And on November 24th of 2019 was Tammy Daybell dead? Yes.

I have no further question, Your Honor. All right. Lauren, what do you make of that clip? And go ahead and unmute yourself. I think she's making their point. I mean, we had to listen to that painful 20-minute monotone general conference voice. And so I think she's just digging in and saying, what took your attention? It's the fact that he suggested that Alex would know when to leave this earth. And what else was it?

The three points just were driven home that they were all present. They all knew and Chad Daybell was in charge. Megan, you want to add anything? Yeah, just that, you know, that they did bring, bring up those points that at this time, you know, they all three of them were together. Alex died just two weeks later. The children had already been killed and Tammy was already dead. So, you know, that kind of just sums it up that this was, you know, Alex,

this was Alex being given a pass to move on, and Chad was the one who was in control of telling him what to do. And then I'll just say this idea of, you know, you will know when it's time to pass on to the other side. I mean, that's the slippery slope of telling people that when they give a priesthood blessing, they communicate with God. And it's not just patriarchs in Mormonism that are taught this. When a bishop gives a bishop's blessing, he is supposedly channeling God's voice and will or the saviors. When a father gives a father's blessing or a husband gives a husband's blessing or just a home teacher in Mormonism gives a home teacher blessing. It doesn't matter if a freaking elders quorum president in a BYU, Idaho ward gives a priesthood blessing to a co-ed. Is that a wrong term to a young woman at BYU, Idaho?

He's channeling God and Jesus. And so, yes, it's creepy and disturbing and chilling to have Chad, you know, be telling Alex that he'll know when it's his time to pass away, as if he's basically saying maybe it'll be time to end your own life soon. That's what happens, I believe. That's a logical next step for some people. people when they're taught that they have the power just by virtue of what thought or feeling comes into their brain. Not only do they have the power to discern God and Jesus' will, but they have the authority to tell other people what God and Jesus' will is for them,

because that's what you get when you get the Mormon priesthood. And I don't think I'm too far off with that. No, I agree with you. Absolutely. I just I actually want to say I feel strongly about that. It is a, it is a slippery slope when you give someone that sort of power. As you point out, even, you know, a man blessing a woman and they're both single and what the male is able to then tell the female. And I'm using that very specific example because I will say that I have shared on my channel that multiple mortal probation. aren't a thing and we mock Chad's pickup line to Lori that they were married in a past life because it's so hilarious.

And for those that wonder, I do read comments and someone made a solid point in comments and I want to share it. And she said, well, you know, because Mormon theology includes the premortal existence, that's technically like a past life. What's the difference between a man telling a woman, you know, I knew you and the pre-existence. And, you know, I believe that we're meant or destined to be together. And I just, I guess I want to reiterate that blessings and a man being able to tell a woman, something like that, it is a very slippery slope. And it's something that opens up to spiritual and religious

manipulation and abuse. So I just want to say, yes, I agree. And it's, it's exactly what we see happening in the situation, just on a more extreme level. And so what the Mormon church could do is just tell people all members, you don't speak for God or Jesus, nobody does, or at least none of you do, and you're not allowed whenever you lay your hands on someone's head, you're not allowed to speak as if you know what God or Jesus wants for them, so stop doing it. But I don't think the church can realistically do that. Megan, did you want to add anything? You know, actually, I think the church could realistically do that because that is a core teaching of the church that no person has the right to tell the general membership of the church, right?

What God is speaking for them. It's the prophet that's supposed to give direction for the general church. But again, I agree with you, John, because they do tell you that, you know, as the patriarch of the man of the home, that you do have the right to receive revelation for your own family and for the people that you're in charge of. And here's the other super, super disturbing thing is that before Stacey died and Stacey is Lori and Alex's older sister. And she passed away under very suspicious circumstances.

I was actually there with Alex when this happened. And the talk around the family at the time was that she was kind of told it was her time. And I imagine that Barry probably gave her a very similar blessing to what we're hearing Chad give Alex at this time. And that idea of like maybe it's your time to go, well, you know, that could have very well have come from Stacey, or sorry, from Lori and Alex talking about Stacey's death. Yeah. Yeah, good point. Anything else, Lauren, for a go to the next slide? We're good. All right. Let's go ahead and go to the next slide. Thanks for that, Megan and Lauren. This is John Pryor questioning the detective.

asked to call him, detective. He seems excited to bring Ms. Points, and the judge has some feedback here. Done that twice. Not on purpose. May I refer to you as officer? Is that? Absolutely, yes.

Okay, thank you, officer. So you made mention of the fact that you've familiarized yourself with the LDS faith. Is that right? I was born and raised in the LDS faith, yes. Okay. So maybe you can enlighten me because I, This has been a learning experience for me.

It has me as well. Okay. But you obviously have a hand up is that you were at least part of that faith for a while. I don't have that. So you're familiar with the term doctrine of covenants. Yes. Okay. And in the doctrine of covenants, it talks about the Church of the Firstborn as part of the LDS faith.

Do you remember that? Well, I can't speak to the doctrine or conference. I know what the Doctrine of Covenants are. Well, you spoke to the doctrine of confidence, though. Did I know what they are? Yes. I don't understand content. Sorry, we're already having an issue with you talking at the same time as Mr.

Prior and vice versa. So please question and answer and talk over each other. And, Your Honor, I'm going to object as beyond the scope. Overruled at this point. Okay, so those are some interesting dynamics. Lauren, what did you observe there having been in the room? Yeah, I was watching that. I just, again, I just thought to myself, John Pryor really wishes John Dillin was on the stand.

But this is what I mean. I was texting you. At one point, I texted you and Herardo. And I'm like, dude, you guys, this is, you guys got to cover this because this is, when was the last time we saw in a capital murder case at a trial, the doctrine and covenants being argued and televised on a stand? Like, this is, to me, this is just epic. and, you know, and I want to go back to the church saying, from the very beginning, they have said these people have nothing to do with us. And now we are in a nationally televised trial internationally,

watching people argue temple attendance in Doctrine and Covenant Scriptures. So I think what this says is this trial is certainly about Mormonism and about belief. And maybe we can even take it more broadly. It is about belief. And it is about. But it is something that I do believe strongly that LDS members and anyone that considers some self-Mormon in any way, whether that's anti-Jack, active, T.B. Whatever we call it. Anyone should be listening to this because this is part of Mormonism, this case.

And if you want any more proof, here you go. This was this week in court. I love John Pryor's approach. Like, maybe you can enlighten me. It reminds me of Phil Hartman's unfrozen dead caveman lawyer. My primitive caveman mind just can't comprehend, you know, as a lawyer, just kind of that inform me, enlighten me. Like he's kind of pleasantly slaying a trap, you know, for the. Megan, what did you think? No, I agree.

It's exactly that tactic because he, even in his opening statements, he made mention of, Chad serving, I don't know, something called this mission thing. I don't know exactly what it is. You know, pretending like he didn't really know what it was. You know very well that John Pryor had to have studied a lot about the church. He knows exactly what a mission is. He knows exactly what the doctrine in covenants is. And he's like, you know, I don't know, I'm an idiot maybe.

You tell me. What do you think? Although he did call a doctrine of covenants. And I was like, I don't know if that was intentional or not. And later on he says parochial blessing instead of patriarchal. I think it's on purpose. I think he's doing it on purpose to make people think I don't really know about this stuff. It's kind of weird.

That would be interesting to find out if he's doing that on purpose. What did you all think of the prosecuting attorney objecting and saying the line of questioning was beyond the scope? Lauren, what did you think of that? Well, John Pryor's defense very much, and this is all. days is trying to set a narrative with his questions. So John Pryor has gone beyond the scope several times. And what is this? Like, let me explain. So we start right now as the prosecution's turn. So the prosecution is on direct. They're calling their witnesses. And they have their purpose and

their reason for every witness. And it's laid out in the evidence that they have and the evidence that's been gathered and what they're able to do. So they're sharing the evidence. John Pryor then gets to get up. for cross, cross examination of the prosecution's witness, cross. And during this cross, you actually nailed it. This is what Job Prior tries to do is ask questions that actually set a narrative. Like, so anyway, the kids were found out by the pasture and he's setting this narrative. There's farmland. He's doing this with the religion too. So, okay, so you know about the church. You were in it until you're 18. So you clearly know about the doctrine and covenants and it mentions Church of the First Board.

And so he's setting this narrative of Chad Daybell's beliefs were just regular LDS doctrine without asking it. So is he going beyond the scope? Yes, I don't know if that's a bad thing or a wrong thing. What's happening in court is John Pryor is often going beyond the scope of what the prosecution asked their witnesses. But then Judge Boyce is allowing redirect. So the the prosecution gets to get back up again and redirect with how he went.

out of the scope, which means he has thrown religion into the scope. And then we get recross. So I do believe that he went beyond the scope. If that's your question, they weren't wanting to ask this witness. The prosecution did not call this witness to give scripture about the doctrine and covenants. But John Pryor was able to get there with his words. Thus, he went beyond the scope. I think that that is absolutely fair for the judge to say he did go beyond scope, but they were able to do recross and redirect. All right. Anything, Megan, before we move on in the next slide? Yeah, just briefly, they're trying, you know,

John Pryor is trying to get the witness to, you know, talk about the doctrine of the church. And then later on, he's going to try to say, well, you're not really an expert. And so what do you know kind of thing? So he's resetting him up to fail here. All right. Okay, well, let's go ahead and go to the next clip. And this has to do with John Pryor, possibly some say challenging the credibility of the prosecution's witness and or detective. And y'all could judge for yourself if you think the prosecution's witness slash detective looks bad

when he admits that the way he investigated this was by talking to other members of the church. All right, that's kind of just a few things to listen for or watch for. She, Ms. Blake talked to you about the Church of the First, and you said that it wasn't part of the LDS faith. Is that right? My understanding that the two were separate is what I said. Okay, but the Doctrine of the Covenants talks about the Church of the Firstborn

as part of the LDS faith. So where did you get your information from? Basically, I had talked to other investigators that were part of the LDS Church, and we had heard through this investigation earlier, mention of the Church of the Firstborn, not understanding what. So you really don't know whether it's part of the LDS faith or not the Doctrine of Covenants, even though the Doctrine of Covenants discusses Church of the Firstborn being part of it, right?

Yeah, so like I said, other than I don't, based on my knowledge, yes. Now, I'm going to go off topic a little bit, but some of the other stuff that I saw, Zuluma Pestina is talking about light and dark. Correct. And light and dark is part of the LDS faith too, right? I have no idea. Okay. Well, you said you familiarized yourself with it.

Did you familiarize yourself with light and dark? Not totally, no. What about death and death percentages and things like that? Is that part of the LDS faith? I've never heard that. Okay, but you don't know whether it is or not, right? Correct. All right.

Again, Lauren, you were in the room. What did you think about that exchange? I mean, he's really pushing it. Okay, here's something that I want everyone to take into perspective, too. John Pryor really doesn't know much about the LDS faith. And he's representing, he's defending Chad Daybell, and he's known Chad Daybell for years, years and years now, because he's been defending him for, we're on almost five years now since the murders.

So I am certain that Chad Daybell is also pointing out to John Pryor that all these things are LDS beliefs. I do believe that Chad believes this. And I do believe that Chad believes in this. defense and he's he's teaching john prior about the church i i know that wasn't your question but i just want to put that into people's brains for a second can you can you envision this uh attorney uh attorney relationship with this defendant that he's saying no he's bringing him literature and he say no this is in the church this is in the church and this is in the church and so he comes up and he's asking

about death percentages you know i have never heard of death percentages but i want to know what does he have up his sleeve. I'm like really curious because I like feel like they're talking and Chad's teaching him with history books and all this stuff. So I'm like, what has Chad told him about death percentages? I almost want to be like, let him loose and be like, keep going. I want to know. What is Chad telling you? Go on. Where is he getting this information? Because this is clearly, in my opinion, Chad Daybell's defense. It's not just John Pryor's defense. I think Chad Daybill is really believing in his defense that this is that these are church teachings and everything he's teaching these people he learned in Sunday school. And so John Pryor is taking that. And I just, in some ways,

I wonder if I don't think John Pryor's gotten as far as he thought he was going to get with this. Because a lot of people are just like, I, you know, I'm lost. I don't know. I don't know what you're talking about. But he's clearly is, you know, Chad Dable clearly believes in this. And he's saying, look, this is, this, I want to know now where in the history books death percentages are, because I think that John Pryor knows something. John Doeman makes the comment, a Mormon advisor might help him. In other words, this person that was picked by the prosecutor to speak as an expert to Mormonism, at least according to John Doeman, is not doing a great job representing Mormonism.

Like you said, they could have found an expert. Maybe the prosecutor never reached out to me. Maybe I would have had second thoughts about actually participating if the prosecutor had reached out to me. Harardo is phoning in through text, and he says that we may be missing the prior wanted to impeach the witness and show that he's not an expert and can't really be trusted. That's that's a big moment. That's that's Heragher's point of view. Megan, let's give you a chance to weigh in here. Yeah, I'll just point out that this person was not.

called to be an expert in Mormonism. They were called to, you know, sort of give some of the timeline and some of the events and things like that, if I recall correctly. But yes, I think that's what John Pryor's trying to do. He's trying to say, you made some comments when the prosecutors asked you questions, you made some comments about Mormonism. And now you're saying you don't really know for sure, and you had to talk to other officers to get your information. So John Pryor is trying to impeaches credibility and say what you told the prosecution, you know, your further test or your earlier testimony is not valid. Yeah.

I really quickly, I want to, oh, Lauren, were you going to say something? If we're missing that clip, whenever you get to, I can kind of relay what happened, because it is kind of a big deal, if you are truly missing it. I can kind of take people through it because it is quite the, it was quite the moment in court. Okay. Let me ask you a question. Maybe Herardo can text me and tell me if we've got that clip or not, or Megan can, because I, I'm watching these, I'm watching these all for the first time.

But can you all explain to you one thing? Because I should have thought this through. And I don't think I've fully thought it through it. I'm just being honest. So if Pryor's goal is to make Chad and Lori's beliefs seem as mainstream LDS or mainstream Mormon as possible, how does that benefit chat? Okay. This is how. Help me out.

Thanks, Lauren. And Megan, I want to hear your point, too. This is how, and this has actually been, I'm proud to say, the beginning of our podcast. My husband and I started our podcast Beyond the Vale discussing chat. And so everybody at the background, my husband is not LDS. He's from Chicago originally. And he's a forensic and criminal psychologist. And when we started our podcast Beyond the Vale, the first episode in June of 2020, the month that the children's bodies were found,

we sat down in her living room and I said okay I want to talk about Lori Vallow help us understand a woman who could kill her children and he said before we talk about Lori we have to talk about chat because this is Chad Dave L's belief system this is coming from chat Chad is the mastermind behind all of this and in order to understand why Lori chose to do this we have to understand her belief system thus we have to understand Chad Debao. So set the stage with that, that this all comes down to the possibility of a belief system. And where does this belief system stem from? John DeLynn says Mormonism. I'm going to take it a step further and say it comes from Chad Debao. And that's why I'm always like,

don't give Chad Debel a pass because he took these things from Mormonism and he took it to a next level. Or as Eric Smith, his friend says, the next tier, whatever you want to say. And he is the one relaying this. He is the one giving the blessings. So if John Pryor, his defense attorney is able to say, no, no, this was not. This was not Chad Daybell's belief system. This is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My client is innocent. Lori and Zulema and Melanie Gibb and all these people that followed Chad,

they were just following the church's teachings. This is nothing to do with my client. Then he can get away with this. We can't prove that Chad Daybell killed anyone. We can't. But what they can prove is that he conspired and that he led the charge through a belief system. But if it's not Chad Daybell's belief system, we lose a lot of ability to see Chad Dayball as guilty. Okay. Megan, do you want anything about why Pryor wants to

tie Chad's beliefs to mainstream Mormonism? Yeah, I think Lauren's absolutely right. I mean, it is. If it's not Chad's belief system that drove the light and dark percentages and that drove the castings and that drove the teaching that when a zombie inhabits the body, then the only way to get rid of the zombie is to kill the body. These were all Chad's teachings. And so if we, if we try to equate all of that with mainstream Mormonism, then we can't prove any, I don't think there's any evidence that proves that Chad killed anybody. Well, maybe Tammy. I don't know if that's going to come out later. But I mean, the belief system has to be part of all of this. Otherwise, you know, Chad gets away with it, at least on two counts.

Chad is guilty because he created the light and dark scale, and when someone was dark, they were murdered. If that is a mainstream LDS belief, then Chad doesn't matter. What do you mean? That's why I'm always saying, I don't want to give Chad Daybel a pass. What do you mean? We're not going to church and learning about a light and dark scale with decimal points. You know what I mean?

But Chad Daybell's teaching it and sending people emails about who is light and who is dark and who is a zombie. And he's making the call about whether the casting or the extracism is working and whether or not someone still has their evil spirit inside of them. If this is all just mainstream LDS beliefs that I don't know how much of a case we have against Chad. Help me understand that. If a church, if Charles Manson has a church that says we should kill anyone we want to, and then he kills a bunch of people, he still goes to jail for killing people. he doesn't get off because his church believes it's okay to kill people.

And that's just an extreme example. But it's no, it's not an extreme example. It's a perfect example. It was it was not somebody else's church. It was Charles Manson's church. And this is Chad Daybell's church. In other words, yes, they were mainstream Mormon. But if they're learning these beliefs in Sunday school,

then it's the Sunday school president that's guilty. Charles Manson didn't go learn. Charles Manson wasn't getting word from somebody else. what to do. Charles Manson was calling the shots. Okay. And so let me see if I'm understanding this, that if the church is teaching toxic, harmful beliefs, then if a member harms someone under the influence of those toxic beliefs, then the church is either responsible or partially responsible for the harm that's done. Whereas if this is Chad's own homegrown church, then he's fully responsible.

for the harm that's done. Am I hearing that right? Or am I missing something? No, that's fair. Yeah. Let me explain it one more way too, because a lot of crime is about who did it and blaming somebody else. You know,

the Rust trial that just happened has nothing to do with Mormonism or church or anything, but, you know, the Alec Baldwin film where tragically a director was killed, a filmmaker, a mother. And a lot of people are fascinated with that case because it's a whodunit case. Who should be held responsible? Is it Alic Baldwin's fault? because he had a sloppy movie set.

Is it the armor's fault? Because that was her job to make sure there wasn't a bullet in a prop, you know, that killed this filmmaker and this mother. The who done it is a really important part of the crime. So if John Pryor is going to take that a step further, well, who did this? If the belief system is a big part of the motive, then is the who done at the LDS church then?

Is it the LDS church's fault? Are they the moment? murderers. Is President Nelson the murderer? Is Joseph Smith the murderer? If you can blame somebody else, that's the best way to get your guy off. But if it's Chad Daybell that created this belief

system, if it's Chad Daybel that created the light and dark scale, if it's Chad Daybell saying who is and who isn't a zombie, which I want to say right now, he did. He did. Then then you can't blame anybody else

if that's a good way to. And that doesn't mean that the church shouldn't be held responsible and we shouldn't be looking at these issues with saying that I knew you in the pre-existence or I'm going to, oh, look, since the church of the firstborn exists, I'm going to go start my own. That doesn't mean they aren't responsible and we shouldn't be looking at the system, which is what Mormon stories does, which is why this is so important to be talking about. Like, this system created this and we should hold the system responsible, but are we going to blame the system for murder or are we going to blame the system for murder? or are we going to blame Chad Daybell for murder? Got it. Got it. Got it.

Megan, did you want to add anything? No, I just, I agree with Lauren, and I think it's going to be John Pryor's. You know, it has been sort of his narrative this whole time that that Chad is just a regular Mormon guy and he got seduced by Lori. And it was Lori and Alex that actually did the killings and carried all of this stuff out. And Tammy died of natural causes. Got it. Because I love Herardo and he's super smart, smarter than me, I'm going to read what he writes as well. Not that Lauren and Megan haven't fully explained it, but Herardo writes, the answer is that the evidence against Chad is mostly circumstantial, according to Herardo.

It's his opinion. Things like weird texts and talk about zombies and light and dark. They're not literally talking about killing the kids on their text messages. So if Pryor can show that these zombie and light and dark talk, all of this is mainstream Mormonism, how can this prove that Chad killed the kids? So that's the way Herardo's explaining it. And that's just a different point of view in addition to Lawrence and means. Thanks, Robert. Totally valid. Sorry. I remember in Lori's trial, you know, that was kind of the closing statement to some of these witnesses. You know, they were going over the text messages and they were talking about light and dark and they were talking about zombies and they were talking about castings.

And the defense attorney's final cross-examination said, did any of these text messages ever say, let's kill the kids? Well, no. Did any of these text messages ever say, let's hurt the kids? No. Did any of the text messages ever say, I'm going to kill Charles? No. And so that was that was the narrative. They never literally said it.

And so they're trying to just blame it all on, you know, it was circumstantial and it was a belief system, but it wasn't real. Got it. Okay. This is great. Thank you both. The great analysis, I should say. People are getting mad at me if I go, that's fantastic. Good job.

I love it. If I say that and I mean your analysis, they don't like it if it sounds like I'm saying, great. People die. Love it. Awesome. people are give great feedback okay let's go to slide 11 i i think we may have missed this one so let's make sure we didn't miss it this is slide 11 um where i thought we played this but let's just make sure if we played a game that she miss blake talked to you about the church of the first and you

said that it wasn't part of the lDS faith is that right my understanding that the two were separate is what i said okay but the doctrine of the covenants talks about the church of the firstborn as part the LDS faith. So where did you get your information from? Basically, I had talked to other investigators that were part of the LDS Church. Yeah, you're right, John. We heard through this investigation earlier. Okay, okay. All right. I thought that Herardo was saying that we missed that slide, but we were just missing the

point. Oh, okay, got it, got it. Do you want me to share what happened? Because it was. Yeah, you were there. Please, Lauren. I was going to say, let's go to the next one and see if the next one plays it, because I think that's the caption for this slide.

Okay. All right. So this one, to set this up, some description is after Prior has shown the detective doesn't know how much, doesn't know much about the Lda's faith. He will now question, let me take the view off of Lauren. He will now question him about Chad's other beliefs, trying to show that the detective can't be trusted on his expertise of what Mormons believe or don't believe.

That's the analysis of this clip. Now you'll judge for yourselves. Okay. And then we heard about some vibrations. I heard the word vibrations a couple of times. Are you familiar with that term within the LDS faith about vibrations? I am not. What about being possessed by spirits and praying for the removal from your body?

Have you heard about that? I have not. Okay. But you don't know whether any of these theories are part of the LDS faith, right? Right. Okay. Are you aware that in the LDS faith that if someone is possessed, that if you pray for them, you can have them removed from their body? Are you aware of that?

I am not. Okay. Can I never in my 45 years of active faithful Mormonism, did I ever hear the term zombie used in any mainstream context? Not once. This concept of light and dark as it applies to judging whether the person is full zombie. or still has that spirit in there somewhere. Never heard that ever in all my years. Now, of course, the light and dark that I referred to earlier of like a darker countenance,

or they're losing the spirit. You can see they're darker, the darkness in their eyes. Yes, that, but not what Chad was doing more specifically. I want to acknowledge, and I also want to acknowledge that this idea of vibrations was never part of my mainstream Mormon upbringing. Where I started hearing about vibrations is when I moved to Utah and sort of new age, new age crystals like memory testing, muscle testing, Reiki kind of new age beliefs started to infiltrate,

even essential oils. As those things started to infiltrate Mormon culture, that's when I started hearing about things like vibrations. That's not traditional Orthodox Mormon doctrine in my experience, but the one thing I will say is demonic possession. And this is where I had a conversation with my dear friend. Demonic possession, 100% Mormon, Mormon doctrine. I can't tell you the hundreds of missionaries and Mormons that have emailed me about their demonic possession stories as mainstream believing Mormons, as missionaries, as members of bishop. bricks, et cetera. Demonic possession is both extremely Mormon and extremely Christian in my view.

Okay, sorry, I had to rant a little bit. Lauren, why don't you go next? Follow that? Take me down. Well, I do appreciate you saying that we need to put blame where, you know, yes. And I want to say as a, as someone who, you know, was. raised LDS. I do recall like blessings over places like dedications

but I can honestly tell you as someone who went to church every week, you know, I agree with you that demonic possession is Mormon or Christian, Christ, cast out evil spirits, but I can also tell you that I never experienced that as someone that's LDS, but I agree with you. So I just think there are a variety of... Okay. Megan?

Yeah, as a card carrying member, of the church for, you know, most of my life. I never heard anything about dark and light or castings or anything like that, but there definitely was the talk of evil spirits. And I just always remember the phrase from the hymn, I think it's Dearest Children, God is near you. There's a line that says, Dearest Children, Holy Angels, watch your actions night and day. And that they keep a faithful record of the good and bad you say. And I took that very literally as a member, even to the point where I didn't want to say things out loud unless I was, you know, I was watching what I said essentially because I'm like, oh, somebody's going to write that down.

I didn't, I wouldn't even pray out loud because I also was taught that the adversary can hear your prayers and he knows what you're talking about. And so he knows ways to tempt you then. And, you know, that those kinds of things stuck with me for a really long time. And it took me a really long time to, like, deprogram myself from believing that I was literally being watched all the time. Got it. Okay. Great.

All right. Well, let's go to the next slide. the sort of the description characterizes in this clip is Chad being smug Prior describing this as an unusual case with a lot of talk about religion

Prior tries to put into question the credibility of the detective And if you tried to pass as an expert on Mormonism And then later said He doesn't know much about Mormonism How can we trust him? So let's go ahead and play the next clip.

This is unusual case because there's a lot of talk about religion. I agree. And Mr. Dave, do you know how long that, that blessing thing went on for? I have no idea. Yeah, me neither. And was it written? Was he reading off of something? I wasn't there.

You didn't hear pages on the video of him turning pages. or anything? I thought I heard some pages turning. I heard a garage door open. Okay, I didn't hear that. Well, all right. Well, you got better ears than I do. We talked about that before. You know what Chad Daybill did for a living, right? I know he was an author. I don't know. I wrote books. And as I was listening to that, it sounded like someone was writing a book. Would you agree with that? Objection, Your Honor. I'm going to ask that the narrative be stricken. I think council can ask questions, but there's narrative being added.

I want to make a ruling, Mr. Pryor. So on the last question, I'll overrule that, but to the extent it does become more narrative, Ms. Blake, you can object again. Now, you know the name's Melanie Gibb. Yes. Did you ever interview her? I did. Okay.

And David Warwick. I know the name, but I never interviewed him. I could represent you that she was dating Melanie Gibb, eventually married Melanie Gibb. Does that recall? Sounds about it. Okay. And then Zaluma Pastinez. Yes.

Okay. All of these folks, members of the LDS faith. It's my understanding, yes. Okay. And all of them have made numerous references to some, at least what I would consider unusual beliefs. True. talking about as members of the LDS faith, they talk about vibrations. We've heard that, right?

Correct. They talk about probationary periods. I've heard that term, yes. Right, and that deals with what you did in your life before in that particular faith, what your role was in life before, right? If you say so. Well, I'm asking you because you don't know about that? I don't know.

Okay, and then there's some references to God and goddesses. You've heard about that, right? I have heard that, yeah. Okay, and in the reference to God and Goddesses, are you aware that in the LDS faith that as you move forward, you become a God and a goddess in their faith? I'm not, no. Okay.

And are you aware that in the LDS faith that when you, that their God lives on a planet and then angels are brought down to communicate with us? I am not familiar with that. I'm not familiar. How long were you involved in that faith? Until I was 18. Okay, so is it because you're not aware of it, or is it because you don't believe it was part of the faith? No, I chose to practice a different religion.

Okay, so you're not aware, you're just telling me you don't know whether it's true or not. All right. Okay, thank you. All right, as the guy who tries to focus on talking about Mormonism, I'm just going to referee there. Probationary periods, 1,000, percent mainstream Mormon doctrine. The Spirit Prison is where you go after you die. If you haven't done all the right Mormon things and you wait there and get taught to then decide whether or not you, you know, get to ultimately inherit whatever kingdom God wants to sign you to. So probationary periods, 100% core Mormon doctrine. this idea of theosis that men and women can become gods and goddesses, 100% Mormon doctrine. Joseph Smith taught it as man is, God once was,

and as God is, man may become a thousand percent Mormon doctrine. God living on a planet. Not only does God live on a planet, but Joseph Smith came up with the name of the planet God lives on, and he called it. Colob. Colob. Colob.

Colob. Colob. Colob. A-O-L-B. It's also the place I got married. Colobb Canyon. Oh, okay, yeah. That's a thousand percent.

Angels communicating with men. That's like Joseph Smith began by Moronai visiting him. The first vision story came like seven years after the Moronai story. For Mormons, don't know that, but that's pretty factual. And then when this guy admits that he left Mormonism in age 18, that means he never went through the temple, which is where a lot of the stuff, you're literally promised in the Mormon temple that you will become gods and goddesses once you take out your endowments and do the whole thing. And, you know, it's got gods and Jesus and Adam and Michael and, you know, Peter James and John walking around on a celestial planet with white robes and white beards and talking to each other. and it's showing Heavenly Father and Jesus, Elohim and Michael, creating, you know, planets and worlds without end and a thousand percent Mormon stuff there.

And so, yeah, this guy immediately. And I guess, Megan, you're saying he wasn't there to be a Mormon expert. So we shouldn't be holding him to the expectation of being a Mormon expert. Or is that what you're saying, Megan? Yeah, that's right. He wasn't called as a witness to, you know, to be the one that dictates what Mormon doctrine is or isn't. I think John Pryor is just trying to, he's trying to lead his narrative once again. But I think right here, he's kind of proving the prosecution's point that none of this was mainstream Mormonism because this guy's like, I don't know.

I've never heard of that before. That's, I think, the problem with what he's doing is Megan's right. So that's what we mean by, that's what the judge means by he's going beyond the scope. this is not a Mormon expert. He's just trying to set this narrative with cross exam that these things are mainstream Mormon beliefs. And it's not working. I agree with Wigan.

Every person up there that is a law enforcement was like, yeah, don't know what you're talking about, which is why I do suspect that Chad Davis was a little bit too confident in his defense. I can picture him saying, oh yeah, any Mormon, come on, John Park. Any Mormon knows about this.

They're going to know about this. Just bring it up. I got you. And then he's bringing it up and they're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. It's kind of backfiring. I will add, just for fun,

just for the nerds out there, want to nerd out on Mormonism, that it is a relatively modern change in Mormon doctrine and culture, probably starting in the 1980s, for the Mormon church to downplay and dismiss this teaching about theosis, about men and women becoming gods and goddesses,

because what happened in the early, you know, late 1970s, early 1980s, a movie called The Godmakers came out. And that's when evangelical Christians came hard at Mormons because they saw how much the Mormon church was growing. They were feeling threatened or they were feeling offended by Mormon doctrine and theology. And so they created a movie called the Godmakers that started attacking Mormons for their belief that men and women can become gods and goddesses. as heretical. And that didn't, you know, that didn't sit well on the church's image. And so Mormon prophet Gordon B. Hinkley, starting in the 80s, started downplaying and dismissing that core Mormon doctrine that Joseph Smith taught by calling it just a couplet saying things to like Mike Wallace or Larry King,

I forget who, was like, well, we don't know a lot about that. I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we practice and whatever it was that he said, he tried to downplay it because it sounds so not only odd, but it sounds blasphemous to mainstream Christians. So that's something that is core Mormon doctrine that a modern Mormon apologist will downplay. But, you know, Lauren and Megan, was that a part of your Mormon upbringing to be taught that that's our destiny, that the planet of the Mormon plan of salvation, the pinnacle of that is the celestial kingdom where we'll literally become gods and goddesses ruling over our own planets as God and heavily mother or mothers does right now. Yeah, and if you want to kind of, sorry, Lauren, I know, you go first.

If you want to take it even a step further than that, we're taught that only people who make it to the celestial kingdom are going to have the opportunity to have children when you have your own planet, right? You're only going to be a god and a goddess. If you're sealed, first of all, you have to be sealed to a man. You can't do this alone as a woman. And you have to, you know, make it to the celestial kingdom in order to become a god and a goddess and then have your own spirit children. So, you're not going to be able to procreate in the next life unless you're, unless you make it to the celestial kingdom. All right.

And Lauren, you were dying to jump in. So Lauren, I wasn't dying. I was just, you know, I wasn't taught like that. I was taught. Really? I was taught. I'll tell you what I was taught that in eternal progression, the belief in, you know, the question of whether or not it would be really fun to just praise Jesus for eternity

on a cloud. Would we like that? maybe to know that we can progress continuing on into the hereafter forever and ever might sound more satisfying. I actually think just so everybody knows that this is where the idea of Mormons saying that there is more work being done on the other side comes from. This is something, you know, that we believe, Mormons believe in the eternal progression. I would say it was never taught to me

and then you get to your own planet and you have to have spirit babies and you have to have a man. I'm not saying that others weren't. I feel like I always need to preface that with us. I'm not saying others weren't taught that. My upbringing did not include that, but it did include, which is pretty much a reworded version

of eternal progression and that you get to take the things you learned with you and continue on into eternity and continue to work. And I was also, yes, taught, though, that you can't go somewhere without a man, but they can't go somewhere without a woman. And I don't want to get into that right now, John. I can't even see them, but I'm like, I don't want to go there.

I don't even want to. That's for another episode. I do not want any cross exam on what I just said. I moved beyond the scope, so let's move on. I'll just say, I just Googled the more. Mormon Church has a super long essay on becoming like God. I would say that this is a modern correlated explanation. It's highly correlated,

which means that it's doing its best to finesse and not look weird or odd. So you have to really read between the lines, but I'll just skip forward to the conclusion. And it says, all human beings are children of loving heavenly parents. possess seeds of divinity within them. In his infinite love, God invites his children to cultivate their eternal potential by the grace of God through the Atomment of the Lord Jesus Christ, the doctrine of humans' eternal potential to become like their heavenly father.

And I'd say mother is central to the gospel of Jesus Christ and inspires love, hope, and gratitude in the hearts of faithful Latter-day Saints. So again, I think that language is softened to be more appealing, but even that, I think, calls the doctrine central. So that's my case. We don't have to belabor that point. All right. Let's go ahead and jump to the next slide, which is John Pryor saying, oh, by the way, I just have to share this for fun. This is a little challenge. Lauren, you'll like this.

Texas cat says, I'm here for Lauren. John DeLynn is a toxic, agenda-driven anti-Mormon. And maybe that's true. Take that. So there you go. That was one of my socks. I was like, hey, go on. Get on there and go after John.

Those are my sock accounts. I'm like, yeah, get them. Get them where it hurts. No, just kidding. I would, you know, that is fun. And in all seriousness, if someone wants to show where something that I've said is wrong, inaccurate. I would love you to share that in the comments, and I'll share it.

And if I'm wrong, I'll apologize. I feel pretty good about my general understanding of Mormonism. I've been doing this for 20 or 30 years, depending on, but I'm wrong all the time. I'm wrong every day. So I welcome any of you to show me my ways. They are my ways. Okay, let's go to the next slide. This is where John Pryor says he wants to show that Chad's beliefs are not out of the realm of discussion within the LDS faith.

Let's see if John Pryor makes his case here. And we're not trying to, you agree with me, we're not trying to disparage the LDS faith, right? No. We're just trying to point out that the stuff they're talking about may not be something that's out of the realm of discussion within that faith, right? I'd agree. when you're talking about spirits and exercising spirits such as Ned. I guess we talked about Ned, right? That wasn't with you with Ned.

Never mind. But that's all of this stuff because these folks were all actively involved in the LDS faith. These are things that came up as- Your Honor, objection, counsel stating facts not in evidence. And again, this is a narrative. All right, Lauren, you were in the room. What did you think about that? well I just want to point out that when I bring up that Chad Davel had a lot of

inspo from other places besides Mormonism Ned Schneider is is maybe one example he did did not get that name from Mormonism and I actually I kid you not I have a belief and I've gone down this rabbit hole that I actually think he named a lot of the zombies after characters founded the Simpsons except for Hillary I do think that one was political so there's he's you know I'm just saying so Ned comes up Megan what what did you think though that I mean this is stuff I mean I know you can't make this stuff up some someone I don't know if you've seen jury duty John if not you got to watch it yeah I need to see it yeah I need to see it but it's like

an experiment this guy thinks he's in jury duty and he's really not it's just this wild experience that some people said do these are these people wondering like what the actual is going on here or do they think this is some kind of experiment in there I wonder some of them think they're like being spoofed right now. Anyway, Meekin? Yeah, I think Chad and Alex shared an affection for the Simpsons, because Alex's email address was Homer J. Maximus, I think. Well, there you go.

There you go. Proven my point, Megan. Putting on my Mormon hat again, I will just say that this idea of exercising demonic spirits, It's not just a core Mormon doctrine. It's a core feature of the priesthood in the Mormon temple ceremony. Literally, Peter James and John, if I remember correctly, it's been a while. They're in the Garden of Eden. Satan's there.

They literally raised their head to the square and cast out Satan from the garden. I've already showed their graphics on the Mormon Church's website, where it shows a man standing up with his arm to the square, casting out a demon and it shows the demon or the spirit running away. If you go right now, Google, go to Mormon Church of Jesus Christ.org or whatever it is, and you Google casting out of spirits, casting out of demons, you'll find potentially dozens of references to prophetsers and revelators in Mormon scripture talking about the casting out of demons or the exercising of evil spirits. And again, I heard stories growing up, but people,

doing this. A lot of missionaries do it or hear about it on their missions. And it's not necessarily done every day or by everyone, but I would say it's a core. I did a survey, between 30 and 40% of the people I've surveyed, had some story about either exercising demons or spirits or seeing someone try to exercise demons or spirits or, you know, hearing from a family member or friend or missionary companion stories about exercising demons or evil spirits. But you are not going to be able to convince me that at least 30 to 40 percent of Mormons, you know, the idea of exercising demons or spirits wasn't a part of their Mormon upbringing or isn't to this day. The only other thing I'll say back to the critic, you know, if I can dish it back a little bit to that critic who just called me unfair and unbiased,

I would say that some Orthodox are believing Mormons, when they hear truths about their church that they feel are embarrassing or that they don't know about or that they worry are going to hurt their reputation, sometimes they'll call the person saying those truths anti-Mormon or they'll call them bad names. they'll say they have an axe to grind or they have a dark countenance or whatever because they are uncomfortable with hearing the quiet things said out loud. And so that's just a little bit of a friendly counter. Again, y'all don't have to agree with that. I just want to, I'll give, but I'll also take a little bit and all that. I sense a dark spirit and I'm going to say that you're a 4.6. right now. And so you can take that your friendly counter and throw that back at it. Sorry. Go ahead, Megan. That's all I got.

No, you're fine. When I was about 13 years old, there was a girl in my Sunday school class who we all kind of thought was a little bit odd. She was a little bit out there. She was a little bit kooky. So every time she raised her hand, we expected something crazy to come out of her mouth. And I will never forget the Sunday school lesson where she said, oh yeah, I know how to tell the difference between an evil spirit and a good spirit. If you reach out your hand and you ask the spirit to shake your hand, the evil spirit will offer his hand, but the good spirit won't offer his hand. And I remember we all just like turned it and looked at her and we were like, what are you talking about? And then to my shock and horror, the Sunday school teacher said, oh yeah, it's right here in the doctrine and covenants. And I was like, what? Are you serious? This is a real thing? I mean, it was the first time that I was really taken aback by something that I was really surprised to hear, wait, this is something we actually

believe. So that was a strange moment for me. Yeah, yeah. And if we wanted to, I could pull up, you know, I'll give people the reference. I'll just show this on the screen. I'll show it. I'll maximize it. Doctrine and Covenants section 129 versus 4 through 7 explains that if a messenger is a resurrected being whose flesh one feels when shaking hands, that the messenger is an angel from God. But spirits that are evil and are trying to deceive you cannot clasp hands since they do not have flesh and bones with which to do it. And according to Joseph Smith and Jesus and Mormon doctrine, an evil spirit will try to shake your hand. And this is in Mormon scripture. And then you'll go to shake it, but then you won't feel anything. And that's how you know it's an evil spirit.

100% in Mormon scripture, doctrine, and covenants. Okay. Let's go ahead and go to the next slide, where Pryor apparently, states that giving a patriarchal blessing is not a crime. Let's roll that. So you're not suggesting because Chad Daybell gave Alex Cox a patriarchal prayer that in some way he was involved in the killing of Charles Valo, are you? I didn't say that. Okay. And from what I understand, and please correct me, you have 18 years more experience than I do. I have zero. Giving a patriarchal prayer to someone regardless of whether you can do it or not.

Is that a crime in Maricopa County? No. Okay, you wouldn't think that's a crime anywhere, right? Correct. Right. It may not be the best religious practice. There may be other issues, but it's not a crime anywhere, right? Correct. And you would agree with me that just because you give someone a patriarchal prayer, a very, very long, long patriarchal prayer, that that isn't to insinuate that you've committed any

kind of a crime, right? Correct. Okay. All right, what do you guys think? No crime and a patriarchal blessing. I mean, it's true. There's no crime there. Okay. I mean, I agree, Prior. I just want to point out that every time John Pryor mentions the length of Chad's patriarchal blessing, he smirks. He's really proud that that patriarchal blessing was such a long blessing. He's really, really proud of himself. I agree. I agree. I noticed that too. Have you all ever experienced the long Mormon prayer before? Yes.

More times than I care to recount. Yeah. We can give long prayers. Uncle Barry's prayers were the longest prayers in history. Oh, yeah, I can't imagine. I can't imagine. All right. Let's roll the next clip. I'll just roll it.

Just read those into the record. Chad sent Lori a message stating, I love you. This is terrible, but it is probably another step in bringing down the Gatti Antons, especially Brandon. Lori sent Chad a message to Chad.

Nope, he can change it any time he wants. He's the agent, and anyone can change their beneficiary anytime with their own signature. I'm thinking it must be Kay. Chad sent a message to Lori. It will be interested it's interesting if it got changed after he had two bullets in his chest.

Man, that's dark. They're talking about life insurance policies, beneficiaries, and death and murder. Megan, do you want to start on that? Yeah, I put this clip in here because this was testimony about obviously Charles, yeah, Charles having changed the beneficiary on his life insurance and Lori finding out about it. And I only put it in there because she made reference to the Gatianz. And for those who are not Mormon or who haven't read the Book of Mormon, the Gadiantan robbers were a group of robbers. You said robbers.

I'm sorry. Who, you know, who wreaked all kinds of havoc in Book of Mormon times. And they were, you know, it was Gadianton robbers were synonymous with just really evil people. And it's kind of this theme throughout the Book of Mormon of secret combinations, meaning people who are forming groups. that have secret rituals and secret handshakes and secret meetings and secret beliefs, and they go around committing crimes and killing people. And so they're trying to say that the person who changed the beneficiary, or they're trying to say that all these people that are against Lori are Gadiantins.

But to me, that that description kind of matches the cult more than it does anybody else. all right megan loren what's your take i mean i i start to get irreverent during these times in court not not the part not the dark parts but when we bring up gadianton robbers and i hear that these these this crew is like texting each other about gaddy antin robbers and i can't help but just roll my eyes a little bit but this is about as mormon as you can get and there was a moment where they explained who the gadiant and robbers are in court and they have to do a whole description about them being in the Book of Mormon. But yeah, just this is what is happening in court every day.

Yeah, and we haven't gotten there yet with the evidence on this trial, but later on, there are text messages between Zulema and Lori, where Zulema asks what happened with Charles, and Lori responds that it was a Nephi-Labin ending. And that's a reference in the Book of Mormon, just within the first few pages of the Book of Mormon, where Nephi gets commanded by an angel to chop off the head of Laban, who's the wicked king, who's trying to keep Nephi from getting the golden plates that the Book of Mormon is written on. And that's a great thing to bring up, Megan, because, again, no, the Mormon Church doesn't necessarily produce more murders per capita. And of course,

the Mormon Church teaches murder is evil, except in chapter three of the Book of Mormon. So three chapters, in to the book that the Mormon church teaches is the most correct book on earth, more accurate than the Bible, has the fullness of the gospel, right? On chapter three, the main hero of the first half of the book, his name is Nephi, receives a vision from God that he's supposed to kill this man named Laban by chopping off his head to get these things called the Brub, brass plates, which is basically to get to scriptures. And so, you know, the Mormonism's most sacred scripture is basically too many saying, if you get a deep spiritual prompting that you should kill someone, it's from God and you got to obey God. And of course, most Mormons would

never follow that, but some have. And another example of that is the Lafferty brothers who were featured in the biography by John Crackauer called Under the Banner of Heaven, and there was a documentary made about that. And there have been others who were influenced by that teaching. And again, this is something the Mormon church leaders could just say, hey, whatever it says in the Book of Mormon, if you ever feel that God is telling you to kill somebody, disregard it, that's Satan. Don't ever do it. But they've never ever done that. And so that leaves people some people to conclude that if the spirit tells them to do it, they got to obey the spirit, because that's what the Book of Mormon says.

I know that's strong, but I think chapter of First Nephi is problematic, in my opinion. It's incredibly problematic, and you can equate it. That's absolutely a story they need to stop teaching. So, you know, I have the scripture memorized. It is better that one man perish than a nation dwindle and unbelief. because I was taught that. And they need to stop teaching that. But the same with Abraham and Isaac.

That's another terrible story from the Bible that they just need to stop teaching. We should probably all stop teaching those types of stories. Yeah, mainstream members are really quick to point out that, you know, Nephi didn't just receive a spiritual prompting to kill Laban. He was visited by an angel. And so that made it okay. I'm sorry, it's still not okay. It's still not okay to teach about justifiable homicide. When you're, when you've got a group of people who are receiving personal revelation,

who believe that every good feeling that they have comes from God. And maybe it's, you know, they're getting a good feeling about let's take the example of Lori and Chad. You know, Lori sits in this in this meeting that Chad speaks at and Chad starts saying some of you here are going to be instrumental in gathering the 144,000. And Lori's really excited to be meeting in person, this author that she's fan-girled over for such a long time, that these butterflies in her stomach or whatever, she interprets as the spirit of God telling her,

you're going to be one of the 144,000. And then sure enough, she goes up to Chad after the meeting probably and says, hey, I think it's me. I think I'm going to be one of those. And Chad's like, I'll tell this girl anything she wants to hear. So yeah, you know what? You are going to be instrumental. You see just how quickly it goes off the rails.

Yeah. And I made a mistake. I just fact-checked myself. It's not First Nephi chapter three. It's First Nephi chapter four. So open up your scriptures, brothers and sisters, to First Nepi, chapter four. Are you guys laughing?

I see some smiles there. And I'll just read it. And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause, that I might obtain the records according to his commandments. Therefore, I did obey the voice of the spirit and took Laban by the hair of the head, and I smote off his head with his own sword. So that's Nephine the Book of Mormon smiting off Laban's head with his own sword. God couldn't just like give him special powers to put Laban asleep, to make him doze off.

off a little bit or turn the other way, had to lop off his head. There is no other way. All right. The very last slide that we have. Lauren wants to comment. I'm good. With you go and pick and wait. Okay. Well, so before we do the last slide, I'll just explain what it is. So yesterday, Melanie Gibb was on the stand. And if you'll remember, Melanie Gibb is Lori's besty, besty. And so she was there for all of this. And she had a front row seat to everything. And she very early on planted this seed with, you know, with prosecutors and, and defense attorneys alike that her memory wasn't very good. And I think she did that specifically because she didn't want to say everything that she knew. She wanted to be

able to say, I don't recall. We call her Melanie Fibb. She just keeps saying, I don't recall over and over. and then if she gets caught out on a lie or something, she says, oh, yeah, that's just because my memory is so bad. So I will say I didn't clip the entirety of her testimony because it takes her 15 minutes to answer one question, and that's not an exaggeration. The question is that she had text communications with Rob Wood, who is the prosecuting attorney. And in one of those text communications, she says something about protecting the church. and so John Pryor is trying to destroy her credibility by saying that her main goal in testifying was not to tell the truth, but it was to protect the church. And it takes Melanie Gibb 15 minutes to answer that question and say that no, she wasn't.

But I clipped out just a portion of it so that we could get the gist of what she's saying. All right. This is the final clip, and then we have a few more closing statements to make. So stay to the end for all the value here. Let's go ahead and play this final clip. You sent Rob Wood a text at that time, correct? Yes. And there's Laura.

And the text was from you to Rob Wood. Correct. And in the text, you talked about Keith, the guy from Dateline and I, right? And is that the Keith Morrison? Is that the guy we're talking about? Yes. Okay. I want to make sure the church.

is protected. Do you recall that? Yes. He has done a good job so far. That's why I feel comfortable talking to him. Is that what you said to the prosecutor? I think so, yes. Is there any reason to dispute what I just read is not what you read just two minutes ago? Yes, that's fine. So the question I have with that is if what you're saying is that, well, you wanted to get the story right in terms of the beliefs of the LDS faith. Why are you sending that to a prosecuting attorney who's prosecuting Chad Daybell? Stunned silence. Are you finished?

I am finished. I'm waiting for an answer. I felt comfortable talking to Rob to let him to know what I was doing. I just felt comfortable sharing that just to let him know what I was up to. So you were sharing with Rob Wood, the prosecuting attorney, that it's your intent to protect the LDS Church with your testimony, right? I guess you could say that. That wasn't the whole point of the interview, but. I understand that.

Yeah. The point of this text was that, right? I guess so. Right. And the 340 other texts between May 6th of 2020 and November 4th of 2020, were those just to say hi? No. Okay. So in other words, what was happening here is that there was at least some sort of a relationship built between you and this prosecutor about how and when and where you were going to testify about things in this case.

Is that right? Objection, Your Honor. Misstates the testimony. Sustain. The point of all this communication between you and Mr. Wood, the prosecuting attorney in this case, was to establish how you planned on testifying. this case and what you were going to say. It wasn't the established reason why I communicated with him. And it was just a coincidence then that you happened to mention your church and how you were

going to protect your church to the prosecutor who was going to be calling you and examining you as a witness in this case. That's just a coincidence, right? Objection, Your Honor, argumentative. All right. Megan. I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Warren.

And I was interested to hear yours. This is the moment, just, you know, I was in court. Well, I guess I wasn't. Was I not? This is the moment I texted. I was sitting on the couch because, yeah, I was sick yesterday. This is yesterday, right? All the days blur now.

And that was my little face in the thumbnail. And I think I texted Harardo and John, or was it you, Megan? I can't remember, you know, all the group texts we have. Just like, dude, this is, this is big. We have every conspiracy theory that ever has been about this case just, combine into this one explosive moment in my, in my opinion, where the prosecutor on the case that is LDS, Rob Wood, is getting accused by the defense of, of corroborating with a witness, they're getting together with a witness, one of the best witnesses, most important,

I wouldn't call it the most important witness on the case, Melanie Gibb. And to try to protect the church, I was just like, this is, this was a really, really big moment. You know, that was the argument that that John Pryor was making and definitely what he was laying out. And I think that what he had said earlier was, as Megan points out, that this was maybe cause for impeachment of the prosecutor, Rob Wood. We don't have context of the text. We do know that Keith Morrison did interview Melanie Gibb and she did that interview and clearly she felt that Keith Morrison would be kind to the church. I can't. I can't say that that's never something that I haven't been asked as I interview people.

Like, am I going to be non-biased and respectful? I'm sure you're asked that too. So we don't know the context, but this was a jaw-dropping moment for John Pryor to drop this in this case. Yeah, it definitely fits in with that conspiracy theory narrative that, you know, if witnesses are changing their testimony or are altering it or are avoiding saying. things because they don't want the church to look bad, then, you know, that that looks bad for the prosecution and it looks bad, you know, from the point of view that, you know, there's, there's grounds for appeal right there is what is what he's sowing those seeds for. I think what we'll find, though, is that if they actually do bring those texts into evidence, they're going to

find that it was Rob Wood discussing with Melanie Gibb, who is a witness for the prosecution, And this was not the Keith Morrison interview. It was about her first interview with Nate Eaton. And that's why she said, I think he's done a good job so far. I think she trusts Nate Eaton to interview her. And she was checking with Rob Wood to see if it was okay if she did an interview. I think that's all that was. I actually think it was specifically about Keith Morrison, though.

Was it? I think, yeah, because it was the same interview. And that was, Dateline had been covering the case from the very beginning. Yeah. And she felt that Keith Morrison had been fair. She trusted Nate completely because he's Mormon. Yeah. But they had to talk about Keith Morrison because,

and she said that he thought that he had been fair to the church so far. Got it. You know, that was, Nate's Mormon, so he's a no-brainer. But I think that she was excited to go with Keith because that was also an interview done at the same time because they partnered together to do that interview. So. Yeah. And I also think, you know, 360 texts over the course of eight or nine months is not that many, especially when you consider that half of them are being sent and half of them are being received, you know, so it's like Rob Wood might have sent her 150 or 160 texts over the course of eight months. And she's a pretty key witness for the prosecution. So that doesn't seem all that out of ordinary to me. Am I wrong about that? No, yeah, I agree. I think, um,

You know, yeah, no, I agree. Because it is, it is hard to know the full context, right? Melanie Gibb is very, very religious, clearly. You know, she bought this crap. And if I'm going to just lay it out there. And it wouldn't surprise me necessarily if she did text this to the prosecution that this is a concern of hers. Like whatever interview she chooses to do,

she wants to make sure that they're going to paint the church in a good light because that's her religious goal. I mean, would you agree that? It doesn't surprise me that Melanie Gibb is thinking in those terms because of just simply who she is. She frames her entire life within a small little box of religion. That's fair to say. But what is saying is a question. You know, how we got there, the context is a question.

Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, I think Melanie Gibb is for Melanie Gibb. I think she knows way more than she's willing to testify to. And I think that she has played this. entire thing to protect herself from being implicated in the crimes because she was right there. She knew everything. She was in the trusted circle.

I think that there's no way that she didn't know some of the things that Lori and Alex were up to. And I think you're right about her being devoutly religious. And it would be a major concern for her to not say things that would be disparaging to the church. So she's probably feeling really proud of herself right now that, you know, in this huge public forum that she got to be seen as her biggest concern was defending the church. Not telling the truth. Not telling the truth.

Not saving the children. Not impeaching the man who brought herself. Yeah. Protecting the church from protecting herself. The end. If I can be a little bit immature for a minute when we learned today or we're told again today that her zombie name was Phoebe, I started giggling to myself because it sounds like fibby.

and now she's already known as Melanie Fibb, and now she's Fibby Fibbs. So yes, there you go. If I'm going to pull a Trump and call people nicknames. But I completely agree that she knows more than she knows and she's in it for herself and protecting her religion. And I think she's made that very clear in all of her police interviews.

So I'm not necessarily surprised, like you say, Megan, that she took the, you know, that she's riding with the prosecutor. She also has this tunnel vision where she just assumes everybody thinks the exact same way she thinks, because I've watched all of her police interviews. That's how she functioned. So to give Rob Wood some space and some possibility, I could see Melanie Gibb simply writing that, just thinking that that's Rob's concern too. But I would really like to know what Rob's texts were.

I wonder if it would be really interesting if like 349 of them were from Melanie, just trying to fan girl with Rob Wood. Oh, I'm important to the case, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. John's, you're nodding. Like, I don't know what the, you guys are talking about. No, let's get back to Mormonism. He goes, that's my.

No, not at all. I'm just sitting at the feet of two brilliant women. I will say, you know, when you, when I listen to Ruby Frankie's, sort of apology that she gave at her sentencing hearing, I got the sense that she was doing her best to protect and defend the Mormon Church. That was just my impression. And I do not doubt for a second that if a Mormon is in jail or if a Mormon is going to be taking the witness stand that the church, and it's going to be a public hearing or a public trial, I guarantee the Curtin-McConkie attorneys and or Church PR make themselves available to those people

so that they get coached on what they might say. Or even if they're not coached, that a good, something that's very Orthodox Mormon is to whenever you speak publicly, to do your best to protect and defend and build up the church. And frankly, we make temple covenants as Mormons when we go to the temple to never speak of the Lord's anointed and to consecrate our lives to the building up and the strengthening of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So that's part of what it means to be a Mormon, is to do everything you can, to never make the church look bad, and to do everything you can, to be a missionary, every member of a missionary, and to build up the good name of the church, to protect and defend the good name of the church. Am I wrong? No, I think you nailed it, and I think you just called out Melanie Gibb because just, you know, the history, John, and I know that, you know, you haven't been following this

every which way since 2020, and Megan and I are always talking, you know, about all these little, you know, minute details. But Melanie Gibb, when she first came on the scene, before we had any evidence dumps or FOIA requests and we're reading the evidence ourselves in our hands. Melanie Gibb came on the scene with this, you know, sort of bombshell interview she did with Dateline and East Idaho News and clear the air and it was very informative. And it did paint her in a very decent picture. I do think that was her goal because she is a very, very, very important witness. And then as time goes on and the evidence comes out and the police interviews come out and

you learn that she's like in the townhouse when JJ loses his life and she's hanging out with Chad and Lori and knows that JJ's a zombie and all this stuff is coming out. People's minds are blown and you're like, this girl isn't that innocent. My point being, just to corroborate what you said, John, is yes, I think this interview for the prosecution's key witness was very important to paint her in a good light and likely the church. That would be her goal. and the church wanted nothing to do with this, you know.

So I agree with what you're saying that this was quite, it was a PR kind of an interview. And then the truth came out and the true crime community was there for it. I love it. All right. Well, it's time to kind of wrap up. I'll just say a couple quick things. Just quickly going back to this discussion of like insurance fraud.

basically. I do want to note something that's very Mormon is that Utah, by many reports, FBI, CIA, people who study business fraud, consistently Utah is ranked as the fraud capital, the United States per capita. Correct me if I'm wrong, Lauren, or if you heard. I believe you. I'm listening. I've definitely, I've definitely heard that. And, you know, and I think some of that comes from some of the MLMs on, let's just say the illegal or unethical MLMs or MLM culture that sometimes informs Utah. That's not to say all MLMs are bad. I have friends who do MLMs, so I don't want to disparage them unfairly. I just think there's also just a lot of fraud here. So I think that's something that is very Mormon, is just this idea of fraud and the practice of fraud.

Okay. So we've got a ton of really fun comments that I won't have time to share. But I do want to give each of you, Lauren and Megan. Lauren, why don't you just take a second and tell us just any other reflections you have about how the case is going so far, what you feel about it? and what you perceive and what direction you see it heading in. And then Lauren, or sorry, and then Megan, I want to hear emotionally as the, you know, as the cousin to, what was that? I said, I want to hear this too. Go ahead. I'm like, yeah, sorry, talking out loud.

As the cousin of Lori and as someone who's a family member and whose, you know, family members have passed, passed on, have died because of these murders, how you feel. So Lauren, we'll have you go first, and then Megan will have you follow. Okay. Well, first off, before I jump to the trial, to your fraud thing, I don't have the facts like you have on that. But I will say that if we're going to talk about systems, one thing I see with Mormonism, and it's actually one of the favorite parts of the faith that I grew up with that I love, but it's a problem, I think, and I'll explain is Mormons are taught that everybody is our brothers and sisters, that we're here to help one another,

that we are here to lift one another no matter what, and to forgive everyone, that everybody's on this journey and we must forgive, and we are all brothers and sisters. And while that's a beautiful idea, I do think it creates for oftentimes a global community sometimes or people that don't stand up for things when they should, you know,

the emperor wears no clothes sort of mentality or just trusting. And so I just want to share that as somebody that grew up and understands the beauty of that. And now someone that covers true crime and has life experience in my tool belt, I do think that's problematic in highly religious communities. And I want to point that out too.

And I think that played a part in this crime. And that will help me segue into what I'm seeing in court. So these are people that, you know, just naively followed and believed and trusted when they should have put their critical thinking caps on. And I don't know where those were. They're hanging in their portal closets somewhere. How is it going in trial? It's been nerve-wracking.

The first few days were rough, if I'm going to be honest. I was getting really nervous. Prior did a great job on his opening statements, slut-shaming Lori and claiming that chat has nothing to do with these belief systems. And I didn't feel like the prosecution was that on. I feel like as the evidence comes out, you know, that's, that's the beauty of evidence, right? That evidence starts to come out, those receipts, and you start seeing that I don't know if there is any way that Chad Dayville is going to get out of this no matter what the defense plays,

no matter what, you know, defense hands. But I don't know, you know, it takes one person with some reasonable doubt and this jury to say, you know what, I'm not so sure. I think it's Lori's fault. So it is definitely nerve-wracking for those of us that have followed this case for nearly five years to think that justice might not be served to three innocent people who were brutally murdered in Idaho and then buried in Chad Daybell's own yard. Children being burned and mummified and just let's just hope for me,

I just hope that justice is served. but I feel confident in the evidence that we are seeing. A couple of other things I want to point out to, because the Firm Expo and these conferences, these preparing at pupil conferences and Firm Expo's have come up before. And I know that when we have brought up the Firm Expo, John and Megan in previous episodes we have done, I know that Rod Meldrum, the founder of the Firm Expo wrote me,

I've attended a Firm Expo, and he wanted to absolutely separate himself from, you know, Chad, he didn't trust Chad. And I believe Rod, Like I believe that. I'm not discounting what he's sharing there. But the Firm Expo has absolutely made its way into this trial. And as something that all of these people go to, I'm not saying anybody is guilty by association. But what I do think is a lot of these beliefs and a lot of these ideas can infiltrate into these communities and that have these like-minded beliefs. And for example,

one of the things that was said about the Firm Expo was John Pryor asked, so what is a Firm Expo? What did you learn there? And they went and attended a Firm Expo the day J.J. was killed. And she said, well, you just learn about science. And I want you guys to know that the science that you learned at the Firm Expo, I went to one class where they taught us that dinosaurs lived among humans. And that the reason why they died actually is because they did.

didn't, you know, essentially get on Noah's Ark. And I don't even want to mock anyone that believes that, but it's not science. It's not science. And then the people that did the preparing to people, which is now LDS media, have made their way into this. And there also were friends with Rod and working with him then with all of these speakers. And they talked about how they believed in this dark and light scale and were calling spouses dark.

And they were predicting that wives were going to die. Chad is saying with confidence that, yes, I knew that Tammy was going to die. It's almost like it's part of his defense. Like, it's, you know, that a critically, you know, a critical thinking human being wouldn't see that that is evidence that you were plotting her death, that he, you know, that he just had a vision she was going to die. So that should be a good defense. I just hope that we learn from this.

For any Mormon watching, and I say Mormon on purpose, this isn't members of the Liest faith. I'm talking anyone that's Mormon, whether you, like I always say, whether you, like I always say, whether you are X or anti or Jack or active or TBA, whatever, I don't even know the terms now. If Mormonism has affected your life, I think we need to be taking a really hard look at this case because this affected a lot of people. And we don't even know all of the surviving victims and that are there and, you know, that are around that so many people have been affected and so much.

much could have been done. I interviewed Larry Woodcock, JJ's grandfather. Yesterday, we were having dinner and we jumped on alive. And he was yelling and he was upset. They killed my seven-year-old grandson. And he said, this circle of friends, he called him a circle of jerks. One of them could have said something. One of them could have done something. And so that's why I think this case is so important to me is this is really just, I think we need to understand how this happens, because this isn't this isn't our if you're Mormon this is in your backyard this is this is this is real this this is happening with people you know and I just I just I hope we see justice I'm in there every day we're covering the trial every day too on hidden true crime and um if anybody wants to get

invested in this case if I can just pitch something really quick one episode the hidden true crime is done if anybody wants to learn about this case and they need a crash course that's exactly what we have on our channel it's called the Chad date bell crash course and that lays out all the religious aspects and elements of this case. And I hope that people just start paying attention. This is a very important case for Mormonism, for critical thinking, for cults for so many reasons. Love it. Amen.

Yes. Thank you, Lauren. Please check out Hidden True Crime YouTube channel. Subscribe to it. Support them. Dr. John. Shout out to him.

He's amazing. and we want you guys to just keep growing. I love the number 144,000, but let's make it 288,000 and then beyond. There you go. Well, let's see. Ruby Frankie, Ruby Frankie got to 2 mil, right?

So. Let's at least double that. There you go. There you go. Megan, bring us home. What are some final thoughts and words you have? And then I'll share a couple final things. Megan.

Sure, yeah. This case has been, And it's been a really long, difficult journey as a family member, starting with, as I said, at the beginning of the episode, starting with a Facebook post finding out that Charles had been killed. And because of the healthy boundaries that I have around myself and my kids and my space, there are a lot of family members that I was not in touch with. And so it was really difficult throughout this process to find out about the deaths of family members. on the news from strangers rather than from family members and to have not been able to really process and mourn because this whole thing is extended out and it's going to continue to go on with Lori's trial in Arizona. And just the grief that I constantly feel,

maybe not constantly, but the grief that comes up for me a lot is that that this part of the family especially, I can only learn the truth about them by reading FOIA documents because of all of the secrecy and the shame and the hiding and the lying and the manipulating that has gone on for lifetimes. And that's the main thing that I want people to understand and take away about this case is that we all know somebody like Lori. We all know somebody who manipulates people to get what they want. We all know somebody who tells lies to gain advantage. We all know somebody who puts on one face in public and has a different side in private, especially if you get on their bad side or do something they don't like. And I just want people to be

more aware of those behaviors. And then secondly, to hold those people accountable by calling them out, by saying, no, that's not true. No, you can't say that. No, don't act like that. And again, I'm with Larry. I was right there with him last night wanting to yell and scream because if one person had held Lori accountable, if one person had held Alex accountable, if one person in that family was willing to tell the truth instead of cover it up and hide it because it's so shameful, then those kids might still be alive. And it's just really important to me that people understand that liars and manipulators, of course, not all of them go on to kill people, but all of them do real damage and real harm. Whether it's emotional or physical or whatever it is, you know, that kind of behavior when it's unchecked, it just goes on and it causes so much harm. And I just hope that people take away that there are healthier ways to relate as a family and that a lie is so much more damaging than the truth, even when the truth is really, really painful and difficult to deal with. Beautiful, heartfelt. Thank you, Megan. Really appreciate it. We know this is personal to you and do you, Lauren, investing so much of your life in this.

So y'all are both just dear friends and super special people. And I'm so grateful and honored that you'd be willing to come on this podcast. Really quickly, let me just share some quick comments. Stephanie writes, love all three of you. Thank you for covering these horrendous extreme beliefs that are allowing children and others that aren't not being protected. Thank you, Stephanie. Rennie writes, the best thing about Mormon stories podcast is how long they are. I love that. They really go into it.

Now, Lauren, are your podcast sometimes lengthy too? I'm guessing they are. They've got to be. Not this long. How about yours, Began? How long are yours? Mine are pretty short for the most part because it's just me. But once I start having guests on there, it's going to be like this probably. Well, I can't recommend it. It's just what I did. And I was started doing Mormon stories in 2005 before YouTube really existed. That's how long I've been doing this. I just would start talking to people and wake up and there'd be five hours. Not wake up, but look at the clock and five hours going by. I just never stopped because my viewers and listeners

won't let me stop. They tell me they tune in because of the depth. So you get what you get with Mormon stories. Hopefully you get some good views and a little bit of revenue from this, both of you. A couple more comments. Mrs. Lonely Hearts, writes, I was taught in seminary. If I felt scared babysitting, it was evil spirits, and I needed to raise my arm to the square. And that looks like Olympus High School, 1990,

which is in a holiday, which is close to me. So that's one vote for demonic casting. Gingy Probs writes, I grew up Southern Baptists, and I'm familiar with all these things. I'm forever grateful that Mormons think S.Bs, are kooky of Southern Baptists and Southern Baptists think

Mormons are a cult. If their powers combined, it would be bad. That's a great comment from Gingy Probs. Thank you for sharing. Let's see. This one was starred. I think John... Oh, no, I'm not going to read that one. She's saying I'm

not a bad guy. So, thank you for that. I can't read that one. Jill writes, thank you for even having this discussion. And then she says, she's been listening and finds me to be fair. I didn't start that. That was automatically start.

A couple other super chats. Death Stone writes, it is healthy to cross-examine your belief system. We agree. Destone also writes, thank you, Lauren, John, and Megan. We need your voice. I agree.

Lisa writes, my ordained Baptist minister, Grandpa did exorcisms. No one died. I agree with exorcism, but murder is murder. That's a good, that's a good perspective.

Ladybug Lisa writes, Powerhouse panel. Thanks for all you do. People love it, by the way. My listeners of viewers love it when I collaborate with Lauren Megan and of course Mindy curse her for not being here. We miss you, Minnie. We need a binder.

We need a binders. We need binders. Waukee talkie writes, I listen to you at night to sleep because I have I love your voice. Great. I won't be hurt by that. SS writes,

I use Mormon stories to fall asleep. There's a trend. Lara writes, is the voice of quiet power. This is referring to maybe Chad's voice. Yeah, Chad's voice. Speak quietly so others have to be even more quiet to listen to your wisdom. I'm sure that applies to Warren Jeff's as well.

Forever Wander, 03 writes, FYI Prior has a major prior that makes his defense of Chad quote, Lori was just too sexual. It's not Chad's fault. Very ironic. So Prior has a prior offense.

So he was charged battery for Yeah, it was a woman that came for an intern ship or an interview, an interview, and she claimed I think, believe she claimed rape and something that wasn't consensual. He claimed consensual.

And he actually claimed that she needed some money. And that they agree to it. All right. Well, I didn't mean to spread something that wasn't true, but that was a comment. That's accurate. Yeah. Okay. Mr. Midwife writes, I wish the church, the Mormon church, would denounce all of these side groups.

That's a great point. 100%. These are all super chats, by the way. So thanks to everyone for their donations. Your super chats. Support all of us as creators, and we couldn't do it without your donations or your super chats. Mrs. Lonely Hearts writes,

if Shaddy John is wrong, I don't want to be right. I only shared that because it was a super chat. Lisa writes, I'm a never Mormon, but Mormon stories has helped me heal from my religious trauma. Mrs. Only Hearts also writes, Best Collab, and then Lisa writes, thank you, John Megan, Lauren, Maven for your work.

Thank you, Maven. Yeah, and Maven's been moderating the live chats, and of course, Julia does the time codes and show notes. Harardo produced this episode. He created the thumbnail, and he organized the slides, and it was his idea, and Herardo scheduled it. So huge thanks to Herrardo, along with my board, Any thanks you want to give, Lauren?

Well, Maven, to Maven. Oh. Thank you. Oh, and I was thinking, Dr. John, I'm sure you want to give him a shout out. Oh, yeah, love you, babe. Love you. Thanks for, yeah, he is single parenting while I'm gone.

This is a sacrifice for us, but I love him. Yeah, so thanks. Thanks, Dr. Babe. All right. Megan. Yeah, I want to say thank you to all of you guys. Dr. John, too, Lauren, as well, this coverage, your coverage, of this case has helped me to heal and to process.

So this has been really important to me. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, thanks, y'all. And please check out Hidden True Crime Podcast. Subscribe to it. Like it.

Like this episode. Share it. Comment and support Lauren and Dr. John. Support Megan's new podcast called? The Midlife Revolution. And the YouTube channel called? At third underscore verse. Third verse.

verse and then please support Mormon Stories podcast, subscribe to this episode, like it. And if you want to donate to Mormon Stories podcast to make sure that this content continues, you can go to Mormonstories.org, click on the donate button, become a monthly donor, and we'll keep producing this content. All right. Well, Lauren, you're going to keep attending every hour of every day of the hearing as you can. and you're doing like noon midday live streams, but also people can watch the live stream from your channel, right?

Correct. We're live streaming the trial on our channel. And if it means anything to anyone, because we, you know, we all agree at hidden true crime that sometimes you need a bit of dark humor just to get yourself through because it's hard, you know. And so we have emojis over there for our trial watching where we remember the victims,

but also where we can giggle about some things like portals and zombies and the 144. So we're having fun over in chat while watching something really kind of traumatic. Yeah, the chat's amazing. It's super fun. So check out. Yeah. Yeah.

So come join us over there. Yeah, we're streaming it every day. Megan's over there. Third Bruce is over there. I'm usually in court. I was actually not feeling two of the last two days. So I watched it on the couch. But if I'm not in court, I'm with the chat.

And we're just going to see. this through. Tammy Dave Bell's aunt is there every day. A big support to, you know, her and just this has been so hard on so many people. And it's, I do believe that the support matters. There is going to be, someone just reminded me, I want to share, there is going to be a memorial service for the children. Megan and Megan is helping to plan this too and is participating in it in Idaho Falls on the 27th of April and it is open to the public. Megan, what time? It's at the Colonial Theater in Idaho Falls. What time does it start on the 27th? Do you know? Visitation is from 11 to 1 and the service will be from 1 to 2.

Thank you. And you might be singing. Is that right? I will be, yeah. Megan will be singing. I wasn't going to share that if you didn't want to. Yes. So if you want to meet the Megan, will you be there? You won't be there, Lauren. Is that right? I will be there. Yeah. I'm going to go. Go to that. Yeah, it's a bit of a drive from Boise, but absolutely, yeah. It is going to be live streamed as well. Yeah, it'll be live streamed too. Right. So people can watch it. It'll be live on. One more time. It's the 27th Saturday.

At what time? At 11 to 1 is the viewing. And then from 1 to 2 is the service. And the Colonial Theater does fit 1,000 people. So it is something that the public is absolutely invited to those who attend, and then it'll also be live streamed. And that's in Idaho Falls, right? Right. Correct. Not Twin Falls.

Idaho Falls. All right. I'm going to see if I can go. I'm not sure if I can. Please come. Please come. Yeah. And I think Herardo and Mindy and I have talked about coming to Boise

and maybe doing a little. appearance and coverage and hang out with you, Lauren, and Megan, if you want to come. So that might be in the future. Mormon Stories road trip. Road trip. All right. I'm looking forward to that. I hope that that comes to fruition.

All right. All right. Well, thanks everyone for joining us today. Thanks again, Megan and Lauren. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We do wish that justice is served. So let's all send out vibes to make.

that happen. Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of third verse, Hidden True Crime, and Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody. Bye. Hello, Hidden Gems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime.

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