Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Did Emma Commit Perjury? Dr. John Analyzes Her Testimony

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Emma Daybell Murray testifies. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And oh my goodness, I was texting John right after they called Emma. I was like Emma is starting. And you were great. You were texting me and you said, I'm watching. I'm watching. And so here we are. John and I have not talked. We have not exchanged notes.

So yeah, I don't know what you talked about, but let's get right to it. Let's talk Emma Daybell. Before we talk about Amadeba, you know, I was kind of miffed when, I mean, Pryor's doing his job, right? Like, I respect the fact that he's doing his job and he's supposed to do what he's doing. He's supposed to throw a wrench into the prosecution's case. So, but he's always a bit of an irritant. Putting out everything else aside, it's, it's like irritating, watching him. At first, I was just sort of kind of put off and I felt like he was doing really well.

And, you know, there were some things that he was kind of poking. holes in, they kind of bothered me. Are you talking about today or all over? Today. Today. Today. But then I stepped back a little bit from it and I thought, you know, whenever a defense case is based primarily, and I know his isn't, but when the main witnesses in a defense

case are family members, you're probably not going to have a very strong defense. So coming out of the blocks with three family members is problematic because any jury will know that family members, especially. children are going to be biased. And in fact, they were biased. So I think it's important to keep in mind that as much as like it's irritating to see kind of this alternative reality being presented, that the jury's going to be well aware of the fact. And I hope the prosecution reiterates this point that these are family members and they're biased family members. And that was probably the most important thing about Emma's testimony was the fact that she essentially said,

I basically believe what my father believes. Right. And we know his father's beliefs led to murder. So if you believe that, then you're probably going to agree with your father on everything. So I think her credibility to me was somewhat questionable when she started talking about, you know, dark and light. And she talked about being possessed by a dark entity. Right. Someone said, yeah, she talks to her dad every day, but isn't biased. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Exactly. I mean, you know that exactly. That. And I mean, and Lindsay Blake tripped her up when she asked about. about, you know, did your dad ever advise you on what to say?

She said never, basically. I'm sure they must, I'm guessing, I could be wrong. I'm guessing that they have some jailhouse recordings. Oh, yeah. Where Chad is kind of telling her what to say. I don't know what we'll have to see. Even Lindsay Blake was kind of taken aback. She's like, what?

Your dad has never advised you on anything related to this trial? I mean, it's not believable. She brought out specific things too. Like, your dad didn't tell you to talk about, the Fitbit shaking? Nope. But you would watch your mom as she was in bed? No.

But you saw her doing it? Yes. But you don't live there. And you told your dad on the phone. And he told you, but this is from you. I know. Anyway,

sorry, what were your notes? I'm so curious what your notes are. Well, first of all, I want to give a shout out to you before we go too far in in terms of you got mentioned again by prior.

So apparently you're shaking things up. in Idaho because Pryor keeps talking about you. He talked about you with the podcast people. And now he said, quote, I got a lot of heat. This is a direct quote from Pryor, which I attribute to you. He didn't say your name, but quote, I got a lot of heat for suggesting about people's weight and size. That was the day you came on your lunch live and talked about body shaming because he was

implying that Tammy was obviously overweight and that I guess And that she was lazy and that she was yeah Yeah right and so that may have contributed to her demise apparently Her quick demise by the way Right Bruises all over her body yeah having bruises on your arms That's completely natural Right and it wasn't just that I want to say it wasn't just mentioning weight

Nothing wrong with weight we all fluctuate It was that he said was she petite Everyone was discussing how fit she was. And it was, but is she petite? She's not petite. First off, that's objective. Secondly, because she's not petite, we're now referring to objectifying somebody. You know, we're sizing up, not even whether they're overweight or not.

We're just sizing up their figure. And then essentially comparing her to Lori, I suggest. And then implying that she deserved to die. because she wasn't petite. No, right. No, well, not deserve that she did. And that she did. Her weight played some factor in her unexpected death, right?

Yeah. And I pointed out that, you know, John Pryor has a little bit of extra weight on him. No judgment, but he's still alive. So, you know, what's the difference? So anyway, I just, I got to chuckle over the fact that you came up again. And, I mean, he didn't, he didn't say your name, but we know who he's talking about.

So when he's taking a jab at you in front of an international audience, I guess you know you've gotten under his skin. So good job there. Talk a little bit about her nonverbals. You know, she's very monotone, not unexpectedly. Like her father, she has very little affect. However, during Pryor's direct with her, she kind of came off as being a little bland, monotone,

probably very little emotion. But then when Lindsay Blake had her under Crossley, examination, she was, she was angry. She was, she was getting to her a little bit. There was a little bit of oppositional behavior there. So she changed. And I think that that worked well for the prosecution, because you could tell she was shorter. She was answering questions faster. She was uncomfortable. So I think there was a little bit of anxiety, but there was also some anger. And I think most, most attorneys know, most prosecutors know that if you get a witness angry, you're winning the war. I think that was interesting to note. I think the most interesting thing about Emma to me was that what

prior was trying to do was he was trying to normalize Chad's belief system, right? He was trying to say that this belief system isn't so unusual because Tammy believed it. In fact, at one point he said, in fact, Tammy was better at sensing dark spirits than Chad, right? And Emma said yes. So he tried to normalize it, but I don't think that worked very well in the sense that there's nothing normal about this belief system. No, there isn't. Touch a little bit about your father's faith believes. And my understanding is you're of the LDS faith. Yes.

And you're a participant, an active participant in your faith. Is that correct? Yes. How would you describe your father's faith? I would say very traditional in what he believed. And he would research very carefully, and he wanted to stick to as close as the original form as he could. So he was really interested in teachings from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young

and similar early leaders of the church. Would it be fair to describe your father as a fundamental? Yes. Okay. Okay. And you didn't share his religious beliefs? Not necessarily. Okay.

Some of them you were. Yes. Some of them that are consistent with your current LDS faith. Is that correct? Yes. Okay, but you would describe him as someone from days gone by, foregone? Yes. Okay, very traditional?

Yes. Okay, literalist? I don't know what you mean by that. Looked at the words and applied them plain meaning of the words? Yes. Okay. And there's some theories that you didn't necessarily agree with him. Is that correct?

Yes. Would that be a subject of discussion at the dinner table when you were growing up? Yes. Okay. And do your brothers and sisters all share your father's fundamental beliefs? I think they're more similar to me, that there's elements that they might feel drawn to and others that they don't. Are there elements of your father's faith that you don't necessarily agree with? Yes.

Okay. Okay. There's been some discussion about the idea of light and dark. Can you describe to me what you understand to be the concept of light and dark? The phrase is good and evil would be talking about your actions, what you chose to do, where light and dark would be talking about your motivations. Light means that you're acting selflessly like the Savior would be, and dark means that you're selfish focusing inward like Satan would be. Okay. Was this something that your mother, from your discussions with your family, shared with your father in terms of her beliefs? Yes.

So would it be fair to say that your mother's beliefs to your knowledge were also of the fundamental or traditional node? Probably more so than him. Okay. Did she ever have discussions about putting numbers, death percentages, or numbers, whether how light and how dark a person would be? Yes. Did she do that frequently? Yes. Okay.

Was it particularly about anybody or was it as her day-to-day activities she would make comments about that. As she came across people and observed things, she would mention it. Objection, Your Honor calls for hearsay. Okay. Okay. Now, you had an occasion personally to deal with your mother's rating system in terms of dark. Is that correct? Several. Okay. And was there an occasion when your mother engaged in a practice of trying to rid some sort of dark entity from you? Yes. And can you describe what that was about?

I have struggled with anxiety for years, and it was feeling very unmanageable. And I felt like there was a being that was with me, and I talked to my parents about it. And my dad cast it out using the power of the priesthood, and then I felt better afterwards. So when you say qualified male to help. with the dark spirit or the dark entity, what do you mean by that? Like the procedure to get rid of it? No, just the type of male. Is it someone who's head of a family, or what is it?

In that case, I wanted to talk to my parents, because they were my leaders in our family. But any man who is an adult and can make the promises to keep, teachings of the church and to use the power to serve other people is eligible to receive it. That wasn't unique to my father. And then the, and giving blessings in not your father's faith, but in your faith, it's not uncommon for people to give blessings to each other. Would that be fair? It's common for people to do that. And it's common for people to offer to give blessings to people in your faith. Is that fair?

Yes. Now, while you were dealing with this dark entity, is it your understanding that when you're going through the process of trying to rid that dark entity or that feeling of, and would you describe it as just a feeling? Would that be a fair way to describe it? I felt like there is an actual person trying to control me. Okay. And at that point, after the conclusion of what your mother engaged in and your father engaged in, did you feel? relieved or some recovery as a result of that? I instantly felt better. I felt like the individual that was trying to affect my body was gone. Okay.

And this is something that is not inconsistent with the LDS teachings, light and dark, and these sort of entities. Would that be fair? And all Christianity in the Bible, the Savior would cast spirits out of people. Okay. And at this point, as a result of, of casting out the spirits. Does that mean that after they cast the spirits out, you die?

No. Is there any instant that you can recall in your teachings as part of the fundamental or LDS church, whereby casting out a spirit the result is someone dies? No, the goal of it is so that way you have your own body back and can be in control of yourself. Okay. Have you ever heard the word zombies? Just on TV.

Okay. Prior said, quote, so you didn't share his religious beliefs, meaning Chad's religious beliefs. Emma's response to that was, quote, not necessarily. That's a horrible response. That is a horrible response. If you're going to say you didn't share his religious beliefs, you'd say, no, I didn't share them. But she's by saying necessarily, she's saying, yeah, I pretty much shared them. I think the prosecution should come back to that. So about just reinforcing this idea that Emma loses a lot of credibility because she has the same belief systems as her father, who, and Lori, and Lori's a convicted murderer, and that belief system led to the current case,

to the current situation. So you can't give a witness much credibility when they believe the same things that eventually led to murder. And I think prior thought he was being clever and normalizing it and kind of downplaying it. The other thing I think that kind of cuts into Emma's credibility is she talked about being possessed by a dark entity

and that her dad had to comfort her by, he gave her a blessing, somehow was able to cast out this dark entity. That's the other thing prior was trying to do. He was trying to normalize this idea of castings. And he talked about Joseph Smith doing castings. Joseph Smith did castings on, do you know who you probably know the Newell Knight?

Yes. So let me tell you about this. Yes, I'm going to read to you that part in the book. So here's a full story. Saints, no unhollowed hand. That is the book. I saw John Pryor early on in the trial with a book called Saints, Noon-Holled Hand. I looked it up.

He had some sticky notes in it, and he was passing it to Chad to look something up in it. It was like Chad wanted it. It's published by the LDS Church. It's church history, and today we learned why. It is that book that has this story in it about Newell and a casting. So here's what it is. Joseph, Joseph Smith, had never tried to rebut. rebuke the devil or heal someone before, but he knew Jesus had promised his disciples the power to do so.

Acting quickly, he caught Newell by the hand. In quotes, in the name of Jesus Christ, he said, depart from him. So he said a prayer. And as soon as Joseph spoke, everything, the contortion stopped. Newell slumped to the floor exhausted, but unharmed, muttering that he had seen the devil leave his body. The knights and their neighbors were astonished by what Joseph had done, helping them carry Newell to a bed. Joseph told him that it was the first miracle performed in the church. It was done by God, he testified and by the power of godliness.

Clearly a story about evil spirits, I would say it was a casting similar to what Jesus Christ did in the Bible, in the New Testament, similar to what Jesus Christ did. But just so you know, that is from that book that I saw him passing Chad, because clearly Chad's like, get this book. Prior's goal was to normalize this belief system a little bit. So, for example, when he talked about with Emma, this idea of light and dark, that he sees this as when you're light, you're more self-focused and when you're dark, apparently, you're more other focused or the term he used as Satan focused. He was also trying to suggest that with Emma being possessed by this dark entity that apparently Chad cast out, that the goal was just to help people feel better. It had nothing to do with something more nefarious like murdering someone.

Right. So in other words, it was kind of a tonic. It was like a self-help tonic of sorts, according to Prior. The problem with this, with Prior going down this road is not only did I, you know, I just said that not only does it reinforce Chad's belief system, but now you're talking about possession. Right now Emma is saying that she herself is possessed by dark entities and there's nothing normal about that. Right. So it's a wild moment. Yeah. Right. So you're putting your star witness on the stand and essentially indirectly discredited her when she's discrediting herself when she says, yeah, I've been possessed, but it's no big deal. My dad cast it out. You know, and then prior kept along this line of questioning, he came back and he said, you know, are light and dark common to your faith? And Emma said, yes, and to all of Christianity. And I'm thinking, um, No, not quite. Like that's a little bit.

Well, also. A little bit of a scratch. A little bit of the stress. And did you get the point where Pryor was actually trying to minimize her strange belief? I think she took that story further than Pryor was planning when she's like, yeah. And it was right after she was saying that this was her mother's belief system, too. Let's point that out. She's like, yeah, this was my mom.

This was all my mom. And then she's like, anyway, then I had this dark, you know, spear individual enter me. And my dad had to do a casting. and my dad this and my dad, but she also, Pryor kind of tried to downplay it and say, so it was just like sort of like this dark feeling, this dark spirit.

She's like, no, let me tell you, John Pryor, exactly what this is. This was like an individual human being trying to get into my body and this person got there. And this dark. Yeah, I know Pryor stepped in it a little bit.

Yeah. I think in a way, you know, there's parts of Emma's testimony I think that probably helped the defense. But if her credibility's at stake, then obviously it didn't. And knowing, I wish the prosecution went a little more into the fact that Emma would do anything to help her dad. I guess they kind of did that a little bit when they showed the video again. I guess they did that to some degree that talking to her dad every day, showing the video that, you know, Chad, he gave her $8,000.

And he put $8,000 in her bank account, which obviously she's going to be biased. by so many things. But I feel like, you know, like what we saw in the 2020 interview was someone who was much more confident about the fact that it was, that her father was framed and that whatever her father said, she was going to, you know, support him. And whatever he did, she was going to support him, right? And I don't know, the prosecution may, they'll probably come back to that. And I thought she did, I thought Lindsay Blake did a good job, by the way, with, with Emma. I'm not, not, probably not so much with Garth, but she was forceful with Emma. I think she undermined a good deal of her testimony.

I think she did really well with that. In particular, this whole idea of not wanting to look at the autopsy results, I think that was really important. And I'm glad that the prosecution went there because that more than anything, you know, the fact that Emma declined to see the autopsy results that she was unwilling to sit down with law enforcement and go over them shows the level of denial on her part. Her unwillingness to examine the reality of this case,

and the reality of what her mother's body looked like when they exhumed it and the findings from the corner, right? She didn't want to know any of that. She didn't want to see it. She didn't want to think about it. It shows her level of denial. Yeah. And if she's in such denial over that, I think, and I love the fact that they ended with this uncrossed. If she's in denial over that, then she's not going to be accurate or honest about anything. Yeah. So I appreciated that. I think that was the most powerful part of the cross-examination was kind of pointing out, look, she doesn't want to look at this. She doesn't not, and I don't mean just the autopsy, just in general, she doesn't want to look at what her dad did. She doesn't want to look at this

situation realistically. And maybe she's not capable of looking at it realistically. And the perfect example of that is the fact that she can't discuss or consider the autopsy. Well said. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach

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T-R-U-D-A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.com. Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. So the other thing I thought was interesting was the part about that, you know, trying to portray Chad as the grieving, the grieving husband, right? Yes. I'm not sure that was super effective, by the way.

I mean, I felt like it was a little. forced for sure. There was a line later where Emma said that she talked about, Prior was asking her questions and she said, she's talking about her father here. She said, he cried and seemed happy at moments. I'm like, I don't think, I don't think the grieving husband should be, quote, happy at moments. I think you're kind of contradicting yourself there a little bit, right? And so I don't think that was especially helpful for Chad. The grief thing, I'm sure they're going to come back to. But I don't, to say someone's grieving a great deal and then to say they're happy at the

same time, that's not particularly compelling. What about her saying, too? It was hard to see him that morning because I'm used to my dad being in charge and in control. Well, he was. I know. He was totally in charge. I mean, I don't, right. She just reinforced, I guess, being somewhat, being the,

slightest bit vulnerable makes her feel like he's not in charge a little bit. You know, I guess she's saying she's not used to much. She's not used to seeing her dad being even remotely vulnerable or helpless, I guess, to some degree. Or telling everyone what to do. I know. And the fact is he probably didn't know what to do. The whole like, what do we do? What do we do?

It was probably kind of honest. He was like, I just did this. What should you know? No, I know. And also like when you put it in the context of what's going on, when you know what really is going on, He's thinking, well, you know, I'm going to get married soon. Like, right? Should I go to Hawaii?

Like, when he's asking that question, he's got all these other issues going through his mind. Like, how do I get away with this, basically? When I heard him saying, when she says he's saying, I don't know what to, you know, what do I do? He's thinking, basically, how do I get away with it? How do I get to Hawaii? And how do I get her buried or as soon as possible?

And then how do I get married to Lori? Because Lori's waiting in the wings and she's anxious, right? He's got all these fires out there. So in that sense, yeah, I read that as just, I saw that as more pro prosecution, actually. Yeah, me too. Me too. What else?

The law enforcement bit, I don't think that worked very well either. I think prior, it seems to me prior is starting to set up a case that law enforcement is corrupt or frame chat, I guess. That's what, that's what Emma actually said on the earlier interview that the, that she felt like she wasn't specific about it, but she kind of implied that law enforcement may have played a role in streaming Chad. So I think Pryor's starting to set that up,

you know, that apparently Ray Hermesio was at the gym working out and he was trying to get close to, he was trying to edge over towards Emma so he can listen in on our conversation. I don't know. Seems like a little bit of a stretch to me. I'm not sure how that would have anything to do with framing them, But it seemed like Pryor's examples of corrupt law enforcement were pretty weak.

Yeah. And the gym incident, the gym incident with Ray Hermacito, he's in a public space. Emma Dable's in a public space with him. I mean, even if he's trying to do that, he's not, that doesn't have anything to do with being corrupt or trying to frame her. And people are wondering why she's complaining about Ray being close to them at the gym. I'm just saying. Yeah, right. I mean, he's, you know, if the bench press is right next to where she is,

The guy has to do the bench, you know, he's got to get his workout in. Right. I have a feeling that everyone in Rexburg probably works out of the same gym, too. There's probably, you know, if there's two McDonald's in Rexburg, Rexberg that seemed to surprise prior, you know, there might just be a couple of gyms, a few gyms. So I was actually waiting for something more compelling in terms of her health. I want to talk a little bit about your mother's health.

what can you tell me in general about your mother's health in the last year or so? Her health started declining. I was really worried about it. Well, she'd always been one to be able to meet the demands of daily life without being exhausted. And she started going to bed at, like, before dinner or some nights, it would be like five, six, seven o'clock at night, and she would sleep in, too, have given the opportunity. So suddenly needing to sleep a lot was very confusing to me. Are you aware of any health issues that your mother may or may not have had?

I, at the time was not. Since her passing, I've been diagnosed with sleep apnea, and my maternal grandfather also has sleep apnea. and she's the generational link between. So I wonder if she did. That's something that obviously we can't investigate at this time. But symptoms like daytime tiredness and not getting restful sleep seem like they would fit what speculation was sustained. Okay. Were you aware of any other health maladies that your mother may have suffered from?

She had anemia. Okay. Were you aware of any medication? that your mother may have taken? She preferred herbal supplements. She did take the generic form of the medication Prozac. Okay. That was the only prescribed medication that she regularly took.

Were there any non-prescription medications or herbs or supplements that you're aware of? Oh, definitely. She really liked using colloidal silver was her favorite. Slow down for me. Colloidal silver? Colloidal silver. It's distilled water with particles of silver in it to the part per million. It tastes like you're drinking water out of a metal water bottle and it can cure everything. Okay. And I say that with a smile because you really should go to the doctor instead of drinking.

All for speculation. Go ahead. She would use colloidal silver as an antiviral is what she called it. So anytime she felt under the weather, she would take colloidal silver. And I witnessed her drinking it, and she would encourage other people in our household to do so. Were you a consumer of colloidal silver? I was. Okay. How'd that work for you?

It tastes nasty. Okay. Did it help you in curing any ailments that you may have had? I don't know. Were there other things that your mother did in terms of, of remedies to resolve other issues she may have had. She bruised really easily, and she used Arnica gel. Arnika is a plant that helps with bruising.

She had it in gel form. And when you say she bruised easily, can you elaborate on that? If she were to bump her hip on the counter when she was walking by, she would get a massive bruise from that. even things like carrying a heavier load of groceries where the bag pressed on her arm would leave a bruise. Now, in terms of interaction with other members of the school, how would you describe your mother's personality? My mother was an introvert at the core. She could be friendly and small talk with people. But in general, I noticed she didn't confide in people.

I also observed at that school, we, like many public schools, needed a lot more employees than we had. So most people were overburdened with work, especially support staff. So she really didn't have time to visit. Even during lunchtime, when you would typically think someone could sit down and chat with a neighbor, she was helping students go through the lunch line and pay. would it have been your mother's habit to openly discuss her health issues with members of her school staff? Objection, Your Honor calls for speculation. Sustained.

At any time were you present when your mother discussed any of her health issues with other members of the school staff? Any chance that I got to, I would go visit her in her classroom. And I never observed her talking about her health with our coworkers. she seemed pretty embarrassed about objection, Your Honor calls her speculation. Did you observe your mother in terms of her interactions with other members of the school staff? I did. And what did you observe? I did not observe her talking about her help.

Would you describe your mother as a very private person? Yes. Okay. I want to talk a little bit about the Fitbit. Your mother had a Fitbit. Is that right? Yes. She had a wrist watch that would count her steps.

Okay. And at this point, was it her habit to use that Fitbit on a regular basis? Yes. She would wear it during the day and then charge it at night when she was sleeping. So she was counting her steps during the day as part of that Fitbit? Yes. And is it your assessment that your mother physically was in a fit state? No.

Part of why she wanted the Fitbit was to. to increase her physical fitness. Okay. She was working on her physical fitness. Yes. She had one. I had one. And she bought my dad one, but he wouldn't wear it.

Okay. I want to talk a little bit about your husband Joe's parents. Who are they? Ed and Charlene Murray. Okay. And was there some sort of a competition between your mother and Ed and Charlene Murray? If you make an account in Fitbit, you can add friends. They're people that you know, and you can compete with them to see who takes more steps during the day.

Okay. And were you aware of any competition that was going on between Ed and Charlene Murray and your mother? Yes. My father-in-law took a lot of steps during the day, and she wanted to be the winner, and so she would try to beat him. Would you describe your mother as a competitive person? Yes. Okay. Okay. And was there anything unusual with the way your mother operated her Fitbit?

Yes. Your Honor. Calls for speculation. At any time, did you observe your mother using an unusual manner in which to operate her Fitbit? The Fitbit is designed so that way you walk and it measures your step by your arm moving. You can count more steps than you are actually taking. shake your arm. And at night time, I'm going to object and bore dire native objection. You may void iron, Ms. Blake. Thank you. Ms. Murray, do you recall visiting with your dad on her about November 17th of last year? No. Do you recall a conversation you had with him about

the Fitbit and your dad telling you that your mom would hang her arm over the bed and swing it? I observed my mom do that. Do you recall having that conversation with your father? No. Okay, you can continue, Mr. Pryor. Thank you. So back to the question. You mentioned in response to Ms. Blake that you observed your mother with her Fitbit, and exactly what was she doing? She was trying to get more steps to beat my in-laws. There was a competition.

Yes. And where did you observe her doing this with the Fitbit? She had two locations where she would do this. She called it exercise. Okay. She would be in the living room. She would place an iPad on the back of a recliner and play the game Candy Crush while shaking her arm.

And she would also lie in her bed while reading a book on her Kindle while shaking her arm. Okay. Was it your habit of your mother to read at night? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Right. Like what we learned is that she, we learned that she may have sleep apnea, which is a highly

pure speculation. Pure speculation. She was a knee-made. Like, she, there was, Emma told us that she would come home exhausted and like, go to bed early. And I'm thinking like, well, welcome to the real world. Like, welcome to any, welcome to any middle-aged couple with kids, right? Like. Who's working two full-time jobs and waking up right and early.

And she also said, but she never stops. I mean, she didn't have time to make friends at the school because even during lunch, she would have to go help the kids buy their lunches. I'm like, did this woman ever sleep? Oh, no, she, and also, I just want to point out also with the anemia, Lindsay Blake pointed out that that wasn't even in her medical records. His argument is that the combination of anemia, exhaustion, possibly sleep apnea, being easily winded, right?

His suggestion is that all of that somehow led to her death. And, of course, he can't explain the pink foam coming out of her mouth or, like, the massive amount of blood around, right, that also around the crime scene. I mean, so I'm pretty sure people that are mean, anemic aren't bleeding from their lungs. You know, it's, it's preposterous. I mean, so I actually thought that Emma was going to say something more compelling, right? I was actually surprised that she just said it's anemia and she's tired all the time. She's exhausted.

Oh, also the carrying the books. That was another thing. Like there's some implication that she carried this. box of books and that, you know, that was like the last straw. Then she had a quarter pounder with cheese. She was exhausted. She came home and she expired because the books, the weight from the books put her over the edge and collapsed her lungs, right? I mean, it's, it's crazy. It doesn't make any sense. Everything was a contradiction. I remember when you brought up a lot of contradictions with the Shanna Gardner case from those interviews. It felt similar listening to her testify. Like,

nothing made sense. My mother could hardly walk, but she was always so busy at work. She had no friends, but then it was our school friends that invited us to do Zumba. Just on and on, little things like that. Well, yeah, the introvert part, that was an attempt to discredit all the people that said, I knew Tammy well, she was in great shape. We went to Zumba together, right? That was all an attempt to suggest that those friends didn't really know her.

that she kept to herself, that if she did see them, she didn't tell them anything of any consequence. Right. So, but again, I mean, there were a lot of people that testified that Tammy was fit. She was happy, right? That I don't know. So, yeah, I agree. There were a lot of contradictions. Can I ask about the wind change?

I want to change gears a little bit. And there was some testimony about a Google search for South Southwest Wind. And that would have been on 9-8 of 19. Do you recall that? I do. And was that your father who did that search? That was me. And what was the purpose of doing that search?

I saw a rainstorm. We were planning an outdoor event, and I wanted to know if those clouds were coming our way. The weather forecast for where we live in Rexburg is sometimes inaccurate because we don't live in Rexburg. So I was trying to be an amateur meteorologist, and the wind, the weather, apps that it was coming from the south-southwest, and I didn't know if that meant it was coming or going from the southwest. And so I did a Google search on the desktop computer that my parents kept in the living room. That would have been typical at that time. I was late to getting a smartphone, so using a desktop computer would have been more comfortable for me. And it was

common just to jump on the computer. There wasn't any login or anything, so it was just getting on the internet. Right. That was a great moment on Cross that Emma had Googled the weather the day before Tiley, because of the bonfire. That was fascinating to me. Emma had searched for Southwest Winds on Google the day before Tiley disappeared. Or so she claims. I actually took that. I thought that was a, I thought that was a start, to me, that was actually a startling moment because the way I read that was Lindsay Blake was indirectly implicating Emma Daybell in the murder of Tiley Ryan. Wow. How do you get to that?

How do you get to that? Because she's looking at the weather to see their trip to Yollstone is going to be impacted in any way to see if, again, this is speculation. Lindsay didn't elaborate. But I think to me what she was implying was she wanted to see if the weather was going to be sufficiently impactful to prevent Tiley from going to Yellowstone, maybe Tiley from being murdered and then buried in the yard, right? If it's raining or if the winds are too high, you can't start a fire. You can't, it's going to be harder to bury someone if there's, you know, a driving rainstorm. Yeah.

So I actually took that to mean that Emma was. helping Chad Dabe, her father, and Alex Cox probably, maybe to a lesser degree. And again, you know, could Lindsay Blake, could the prosecution develop this in charge her? No, but I think she's putting that out there to show that there's a real credibility issue and then Emma Dable made very well no more than she's letting on. There'd be no reason for her to be Googling about wind speeds and wind directions and weather, right? Like she's, think about it. Why would you want to look at the forecast so closely the day before Tiley disappears, not only disappears, but is presumably murdered and buried in Chad's backyard. So to me, that was a, that was a really incredible moment

because I felt like not only did Lindsay Blake nail that. And again, I don't know what the jury appears or takes away from that. I don't know. Right. That's the wild car. We don't know what any of that means, but I thought that was an incredible moment because I think it could potentially implicate other, I mean, Emma Daybell in Tiley's disappearance. I, that's fascinating that that's how you saw. You're right. And that could be how the jury takes it to. I just thought it was shocking that she was what I believe was possibly lying on the stand. And it seemed even more clear when an answer to another question is, you know, what direction were the neighbor's houses? And she said she didn't,

know north-southeast west. I'm like, wait, so you don't know north-southeast west, but you're telling me that you're the one that Googled southeast wind directions. Either someone told you to do that for them, or you know directions. I saw it more as less about directions and more about weather, that she wanted to know the weather and the weather patterns and wind directions because she wanted to know whether they could bury the body, whether they could burn the, what direction the wind would be blowing so If there was a fire, they would know in what direction the smoke would be going, who would smell it, who would see it.

They would want to know the weather at Yellowstone, whether whatever they were doing at Yellowstone, whether the weather might have a negative and adverse impact upon their plans. If the winds were extremely high, maybe they couldn't carry out their plans. I don't know. That's the way I saw. Like, the timing of that is just too, it's too peculiar. It's too coincidental. She's Googling wind direction and weather, like the day before Tiley disappears.

and then never again. How do you think the jury's going to take it? I don't know. I think they're going to definitely wonder about it. If they see it the way I do, then obviously Emma Debel loses any credibility whatsoever. So when I heard that and thought about it for a minute, that was exactly my thought. Not only is she less credible, but holy cow, maybe she's a co-conspirator. And again, I'm not suggesting that she's going to be charged.

I mean, it would be, you'd have to have a lot more. evidence than that to bring charges. So I don't want to, I don't want to go too far with that. I'm clearly speculating here, but. But that's how you took it. That's how it's how it's, that's how I took it, right? When I heard that, that's how it felt to you. The thing that made the most sense to me was that she's doing this to help her dad. So I think, so the wind, the weather, looking up the weather patterns, I think that was really important. The autopsy, not wanting to know about the autopsy, I think, incredible, right? Because there's just no curiosity about her mother died. She's going to believe her father's story no matter what. Yeah. Most people don't realize how much their personal information

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