Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Dr. John Analyzes Never-Before-Heard Jailhouse Call Between Lori Vallow & Chad Daybell

Episode Date: May 19, 2024

Criminal Psychologist Dr. John Matthias assesses a never-before-heard jailhouse recording between Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow on June 8th, 2019-- ONE DAY BEFORE JJ and Tylee were found in Chad's Backyard. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. A podcast that started at their dinner table has now become the dynamic husband-and-wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thank you for being here, babe. What I told John that we wanted to know most about was the jailhouse phone call, bombshell evidence dropped that we've never heard before, a jailhouse phone call between Lori and Chad. On June 8th, 2020, the day before a search warrant to dig, and the day before they found, JJ and Tiley's remains in Chad Day Bell's yard. We have a recorded phone call with them. Oh, that's good.

Usually it's hard to get a hold of him. Okay. Yes. He was asking what we talked about. He's very optimistic. It was very optimistic for you or he's very optimistic it could happen. He's very optimistic for both of us. He doesn't know his own project timeline.

He said stick with it to what he projected in that papery he wrote. You know, house renovations always take longer than they think. That's the problem. I've been watching that extreme pools. And the people are like three months out. When they estimated they'd have it done. And they're like, well, we have so many problems. We couldn't get to the backyard.

We had a full crane over the house to get these huge rocks for the waterfall. I can remember last summer, Taylor Hill, Marksrand, parents moved into a trailer, like a camping trailer in their driveway because they were going to build their house by the end of the year. Guess where they'd feel at? Really? They sold their house to their son. It's just a weird situation. But you're exactly right.

Yeah, it takes forever. Yeah, there's always something. Well, we didn't know when we dug in your backyard. We were going to find whatever. And then they're like, we have to redo all the piping. And then we had trouble with this. When something else happened? But they try to make it sound like it wasn't really that long,

but it's always like, going to take three months. And then three months after that, they're like, okay, it took six months. You couldn't come in your backyard at all. And now it's not summer anymore. Now it's winter and your pool is finally done. Right.

I'll say they do it. So he's optimistic about his construction problem, or construction problems. Not problems, but plan. Yeah. The construction plan, the blueprint, are still in town. Yes.

Yes. I kind of just said, I texted him what you just said is you guys are always a little off. Right, exactly. We just want a real estimate. Right. What do you say? He just laughed. He did not confirm nor deny that fact.

That contractors are always later than they say. later than they think they're going to be? He's like, you know, it'll work out, you know, how he is. He did want me to say he misses you, but he's not far from, you know, contact. We can talk, you can text him whenever he wants. Yeah, I can't text anybody. Contact. You can text for me.

That's like me telling you. I need you to tell the person and talk to the person. I'll text him back. He's optimistic. I mean, I want to go visit him and grab him by the throat and say, really? Can he? I know he's optimistic, but can he just make us any guarantees? I mean, we did make our down payments and anything else.

Guarantee. It was like a guarantee, just an end date of our project. Well, he knows you pretty well. He just laughs. I asked you what he thought of the video project. He said it was really nice. He loved it. Detective, through your investigation, were you aware of any type of video put out about Alex Cox or out in this time?

Not around June 8th, but shortly after Alex Cox died, his sister's summer Shifflet made a YouTube video with clips of Alex photos throughout his life and put it to music. And so we viewed that early on in the investigation, but that's what is being referred to here. Judge, I'm an object. That calls for speculation. He can't speculate is what it calls for. Untimely. Overruled. And Judge, I'm going to, I had stopped playing at 1213.

I'm going to recommence playing at 1213. You may. Yeah, that's good. Although I've never heard that song before. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's just something on like I movie or something. Exactly. Yeah.

Like one of the backgrounds that you've... church just a happy one. I don't know, because I've never even heard that one, or I've never seen the app, but I know people can do that. I would be, it was always on my icon. I just didn't ever click on it. Yeah, frustratingly optimistic, I guess. So frustrating for us.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Thanks for completing your project on time. Will they get a bonus? They do it. Oh, yeah. Give him a bonus. It was good. It was good to talk. I hadn't texted him in a while.

So he would still answer all my questions in the same way. Do you think if I'm texted him? I think you ought to write down some questions for him and maybe even mail him off and see what happens. See if he'll respond to you. I have no doubt. Don't forget President Hollins' talk. That's snippet.

He seemed like he wants to text if you could. Yeah, it's all true. That's all I can say. Well, true with that. It's good. It's good. You know what I'm saying. No, he's still very interested.

He hasn't, like, forgotten about. us. I know he has other projects, so I don't know how much time that tape. He's involved in this latest batch. Wow. remind him when you do text him back

that at the beginning of this project he said there was only like a 3% chance that there would be trouble from certain aspects and that seems like

a 100% trouble because that's where it all started uh So find out about that. Right. See what he has to say for himself on that. And you know exactly what I'm talking about. I do.

Do you call what I'm talking about? Oh, I know, exactly. Okay. Judge, I'm going to stop at 1635. Detective, who is asking who to obtain information in that? but we just heard. Lori was asking Chad for information. Your Honor, I'm going to continue playing at 1635.

You may. I want to know why that is 100% instead of 3% chance of having a problem. I think he was somewhat right in that. The other aspect towards other people, it was a combination. I know it was a combination. I was a combination. But, what I'm saying is

it's a combination of only you know five problems that was a big one it was something uh huh my faith in those kinds of guarantees are lower

me too and beggars can't be choosers I get that but you know what I'm saying it's not like I get to pick the colors of everything that I want who's just going to have to figure it out

since I'm here and I can't be in charge of the project yeah I've thought back on that entire scenario when we went over the plan and the blueprint yeah he said

That wouldn't be a problem. What did take all that one? Why was that? It really was. Right. No, I don't doubt that. It's just strange how it blossomed. So.

Go ahead. No, I'm just going to say so. Do you think it was meant to have complications and then to go that direction? That's some point, yeah. Well, then you should have said, hey, this is a 99% chance that we're going to have trouble with this soil.

Yeah. Right? I mean, that's all we were asking. Could this potentially be good, or do we have to billow sand? Well, I think we sensed that we shouldn't take it lightly, and I don't think we did.

I mean, we only discussed the matter with the trouble once, and I thought we cut it off and did well, and now that problem is kind of causing its own trouble for itself. But there's other things in the project where, I mean, when I'm going back over it, right, that I could have easily done or been inspired to do to avoid a lot of the issues that are going to come up with that. Yeah. that we weren't made aware of

so you see what I'm saying Mm-hmm I do It was meant to go this way You think that's what I'm saying I do It's terrible Minor changes here and there

But overall this was part of the blueprint I just Oh, I just wish it hadn't been. But I'm thinking of previous group blueprints where the people weren't warned either. No raise in that contractor position for a reason. And he's not going to.

Not going to drop us for another project. Well, can't he, like, forcibly use a hand, punch some people in the face and get some things done? Some people in particular, like the 3% or person? I don't think he wants to be violent. Well, I'm not saying be violent. I'm saying they get their attention. He did.

What he did is kind of mute her effect. The kind of kept her in her place for quite a while to the point it almost diffused any

value of her. Not talking about. in the beginnings, you know, going back over the whole blueprint and all the things that we've been, you know, I don't know what the word is, you know, when you go through it. Anyway, a lot of that stuff could have been avoided. Yeah. Just minor tweaks. Yes. And I don't know why it had to go down this way.

road to where we are now in the project. Mm-hmm. You know, fully you understand. I think you'd text you back or write you back. Ultimately, what I need from you

is that the project is going to be finished and everything is going to be fine and it's going to work out. That's what he said. Well, I need you to tell me that. Every day, several times. Okay.

My sweet, lovely, lo-lo. Things are going to work out, not just because he says so, but because I know so. It's a marvelous plan. How do you know so? How do I know? It's been shown to me, honey.

I've seen those beautiful eyes filled with tears as she sings to amazing groups of people. I've seen that wonderful body dance to heavenly songs. Your Honor, I'm stopping at 2641. Detective, in that conversation, who is asking who, for assurances. Lori was asking, Chad, and we found that throughout multiple phone calls. She would ask Chad for assurance. And who said they had seen the plan?

The defendant, Chad Daybill. Your Honor, I'm starting again at 2641. Their purpose is only beginning. It's hardly begun. and it will be the pair. It won't be solo. And it's going to be incredible. The cholo and not solo?

That's right. Yep. It will be the arrhythmics. All solo careers. I'm just absolutely sure. I was saying it will be the arithmetic it won't be two solo careers. I know, but I'm saying you said

you have absolute what confidence? Absolute, assurity, confidence, confirmation. It's going to be as seen. There's some things that aren't going to be altered. Your value is, tremendous immense and needed in every way you're tremendous my love I know that is a fact I think you are you underestimate yourself not trying to give you a big head or ego because you don't

have one you just are spectacular and the Lord is going to use those talents. We're on earth at this time for that purpose. I'll try to call you back so we can pray. Okay. Yeah, I listened to it. I mean, I think the most interesting part to me was if people have questions about who's driving the bus

and who's leading the charge, then I think this pretty much answers it. Go on. I think the prosecution was trying to make that point, too, that Lindsay Blake was repeatedly saying, who's reassuring who, right? Who's providing assurances? And the answer is Chad, that Lori appears a little uncertain about the plan because she's sitting in jail and her future's uncertain. And Chad is not at this point. He has not been arrested and he's not in jail.

And so Chad is, I think, trying to, number one, I'm sure he wants to keep her quiet. So he's trying to reassure her because if she flips on him, then obviously he's in big trouble. And clearly she hasn't done that yet. But I think it's repetitive in the sense that he's constantly trying to reassure her that the blueprint, that's the term he uses frequently. the blueprint is in place. So the other thing that's interesting, the other thing that's really telling

or important about this call is it shows that there is a blueprint. It shows that these murders are part of a larger plan. If there's any question about Chad leading the charge here and Chad developing this blueprint and executing this blueprint and using the people around him to do so, I think this call answers that.

That we learn here definitively that these murders were part of a larger plan. And even though there's some hints about what that might be here, it's still very vague, but there's some moments in here where it appears that we get at least a small glimpse of what that plan is. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Can we talk about, I mean, yeah, what are your thoughts? The call begins with, they're talking about their project. So again, they're using different words to describe the blueprint, the project, right? They're definitely conveying the fact that this is part of a larger plan, that this is probably a part of Chad's vision or visions. and what she talked about in his autobiography, obviously. One thing that was interesting right off the bat was Lori suggests that the delays are a bit like they're similar to delays on a construction project. And then she says this, right? This is exactly what she says, comparing this to like an electrical project gone bad, right?

Here's what she says. She says, quote, we, and she's saying sometimes it's like this. She said, quote, we didn't know when we dug in your backyard, they would find whatever. Right. That was a moment. I was like, wait, why? I had to go back and listen to it like three times. Yeah.

No, it's, it's the classic Freudian slip. She's essentially saying on the call, if they dig in your backyard, they're going to find bodies, right? that like she's implying that, you know, a typical construction project might dig up some electrical issue or, you know, some cables in your backyard or that kind of thing. But clearly she knows and is alluding to the fact that Chad has bodies in his backyard. And if they dig up the backyard, they're going to be in trouble. And she says it so clearly. I mean, she's not trying to say that.

but that's exactly what she says. Yeah, I was wondering your thoughts on that. It was strange. And you know what I noticed too is Chad doesn't really respond to it. They kind of move on after that. What do you say to your partner in crime when she basically says, yeah, if they dig up your backyard, they might find some things that delay your project.

And oh, by the way, they're going to do it tomorrow. Right. which, by the way, his project got delayed quite a bit when they did dig up his backyard. So obviously, here's a moment where Lori has seen the future, right? This is a moment of, let's say this is Lori's moment of prophecy. But I mean, she knows. She obviously knows, right? So it's not, it's something that she's aware of.

She has knowledge of that. So I think it's kind of a classic slip of the tongue or Freudian slip that she, She alludes to the fact that their project could become derailed by something in the backyard. And indeed, that's accurate. That's exactly what happens. Yeah, in less than 24 hours later. You're right. Maybe she's a visionary.

A lot of this is just Lori's uncertainty and Lori's fears about what they might find. And she's constantly seeking reassurance. So another fascinating moment is she's talking about guarantees. Are there any guarantees? And obviously there's this apparent conversation between Chad and Alex. From beyond the veil, Alex is apparently accessible by text messaging. So Chad's text messaging, Alex, who's referred to here as Ray.

But Alex is reassuring them or Chad, that everything's on track, not to worry about it. You know, the blueprint's fine. And Lori, Lori says another fascinating thing. She says, quote, we made our down payments. Yes. Wow. Right.

That's a jaw-dropping moment in the sense that you and I have talked about this potentially sacrificial component to these murders. And that's exactly what that statement suggests. suggests. You make it down payment in exchange for something else. She's implying that these murders were potentially somewhat sacrificial. We know that both Lori and Chad talked a lot about the story of Abraham and Isaac and testing loyalties to God or a higher power. So here we see that. We see that. come to light for the first time, I think, given all this evidence that a down payment is a sacrifice.

It's giving something up now in exchange for something in the future. So that was another really peculiar moment. I think I just kind of want to pick out a few of these moments, I think, that are important. Another one that was interesting was when Lori says she apparently in the notes that she's mimicking a line from Bruce Almighty. where she says it's good, it's good. And I think that's an interesting moment because I think throughout this whole case,

there's this struggle to distinguish fiction and fantasy from reality. And, you know, these people would, right, Chad references Marvel comic books and in his autobiography and some of his books, that they confuse, they conflate. these fictional stories with reality. And this is another case of that. She's,

I guess she's trying to be funny here, but she's making, like in some ways she's making a fairly serious reference to a comedy that's pure fiction. Right. And that's how they operate. Like, it shows you kind of the immaturity

and the inability of these people to really cope with reality in any serious way. You know, that they can't make these distinctions. They throw in all these references to different fictional characters and books like Twilight. Lori was obsessed with the Twilight series. And they just, you know, so it's both this regressive quality, kind of this infantile, childish quality. And which, and along with that, this struggle to really make distinctions.

between fiction and reality. Yeah, one thing they don't do well is reality. That's like one thing that's like one thing that no one in this group seems to grasp is what's real. Yeah, and you learned about the Twilight. We've talked about that on our podcast before because you actually learned that from Colby

during your filming with Netflix. Yeah, Twilight. but there's right yeah Colby Colby told me that that Lori was absolutely obsessed with Twilight she talked about it endlessly and she in many ways she

used that as kind of a model for a love relationship and so a romantic relationship and I think by the way that that explains some of the appeal of Chad you know Chad's no Edward but he's promising the

he's promising Don't even put them in the same category. Chad is no Edward. Edward is Edward. People ask us all the time, why would she be attracted to someone like Chad? The answer is because it's not, am I getting that right? It's Edward, right? Yes.

In the Twilight series? Yeah, Edward and Bella. It's what Edward represents. It's the fact that vampires are immortal and they can have an immortal love and the vampires have this tremendous power, right? That's what appeals to Lori. It's not the, it's not necessarily the physical attraction part. Clearly.

So, and again, this is potentially another area where fact and fiction kind of collide, right? That she has to create this fantasy about Chad. to really make that complete investment in him and his visions and all of that. So that's another area, I think, where fantasy and reality collide. Yes. You just made a solid, a really good point. Just Chad Dable alone was an absolute fantasy to Lori.

She had to, like, increase her fantasy because clearly, as everybody has stated, he was not Lori's type. I mean, going from Charles to Chad with the downgrade of the century. And so in order to get there, no, but I mean serious. In order to get there, that itself had to be a complete fantasy. Just a complete delusional. Well, and that's one of the points of the Twilight series is that it's the fantasy of immortal romance. That's exactly what Chad is offering her, that she's going to be his goddess in the New Jerusalem.

So there are parallels in that sense that Edward and Bella are immortal. Yeah. Yeah, right. They're immortal. Potentially immortal translated beings. It is very interesting. By the way, Aunt Vicki, I posted the Aunt Vicki. that's Tammy Daybell's aunt.

I posted it for a while, but she said that she felt like the whole thing sounded like a confession in many ways, the entire call. Maybe parts of it. I mean, it's still sufficiently vague. I don't know if I'd say a confession. I think there's definitely hints of, there's hints here that we've never heard or seen before of what's really occurring behind the scenes.

but it's too, I think it's, it's too convoluted to probably be a confession. But I mean, yeah, there's elements of that. Right, but you see that they know more. As you, you know, maybe that's it. And speaking to that, so let me move on to the next tidbit. A lot of these tidbits come from Lori, by the way. But the, so she's talking about, she says that she uses the term, they're talking about some of the obstacles to the blueprint.

Right. And Lori mentioned, Lori says one of the potential problems is, quote, the combination of five problems. The combination of five. So think about that for a second, right? Let's do the math. That's an amazing line. I mean, I don't think the jury's going to catch that.

But the combination, the five problems are the five murders. Oh. The five problems are Charles, Tammy. J.J., Tiley, and Brandon. It just so happens that Brandon fortunately survived, but those were the five problems, right? So, I mean, I guess if we get into this confessional element of this, yep, there you go.

The five problems are the five murders. One of them is an attempted murder, but the other four were successful murders or murders that actually occurred, unfortunately, tragically. But, I mean... Can I suggest another fifth? Okay. I don't think it was Brandon.

That's why I took it to be, but okay. I think it was Alex. Yeah. This was after Alex's death, and they're texting him. They're texting Ray, who was Alex. Except Alex isn't really a problem. The reason I thought it was Brandon is because clearly Brandon was part of the blueprint. Brandon happened to be a failed part of the blueprint,

but he was part of the blueprint because they tried to kill him. They tried to murder him. So Alex is not a problem because Alex actually, he's on the other side helping them. And that's expressed very clearly in the Ian Polowski transcript. I took the five problems to be, to include Brandon, because when you think about that, at least to me, that's the blueprint. I think they fully expected Brandon to be murdered and he wasn't. So maybe Brandon was still, and Brandon, Brandon understood that as well as anyone.

He went into hiding. Like, he wasn't going to just hang around. Who knows who the fifth one is that they meant, but you're right. Yeah. And Brandon, and they could have been plotting Brandon still, for all we know. The important point here is that these so-called five problems are, it's a fascinating thing to say because, again, it gets us into the blueprint. It gets us into the project that they're trying to execute here.

And problems, you know, problems, I guess in terms of how they see the world, problems would be zombies or dark spirits or people that could interfere with their assent to the New Jerusalem. So, and that's where I would argue for Brandon because Brandon potentially was in the way of Melanie. Melanie was on board at the time that Brandon was an obstacle to Melanie, you know, ascending into the New Jerusalem. He was a problem standing in their way. Right, exactly. Every one of the murders represented a problem. And it's also fascinating that Lori, Laurie uses the term problem, right? Like, it's, it's not a, it's not a particularly astute way to hide the fact that you're referring to murder. But again, I don't know, you know, will the jury pick up on that? I mean, the jury has been inundated with so much information. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that they're going to, right, I don't know that they're going to, right. I don't know that they're going to, right. nitpick at this level or, you know, that they're going to kind of drill down. But I mean,

there, but there it is. Like for our listeners, that's it. She's, she's talking about the five murders. Right. One of them, one of them's attempted. The, another interesting statement by Lori is, so she, they're talking about percentages of trouble and, you know, that Alex apparently said there was a 3% chance of trouble, but now it's more like 100%. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

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And Lori says, quote, there's 99% trouble with this soil. With this soil. Like, what? I mean, okay. I mean, I take that to mean that she's referring to the children being buried. And specifically, I think she's referring to Tiley in that moment, that the soil being. somehow trouble with if the body's found or trouble with, right?

You don't make a reference to soil. No. Unless it's very specific to something. I mean, so that's another interesting, I think that's another slip. You know, if you're trying to hide this, you're not going to mention, you're not going to be that specific about the trouble is in the soil, right? The trouble is that the bodies will be found. So I think, you know, coming the day before the bodies were found, I think that's a really interesting statement.

I think she's intuiting the fact that the soil is going to be a problem for them. Because typically, I mean, they're having this discussion in very broad terms. Well, it's 3%, 100%, 909, right? And then all of a sudden she drops this word soil it. It doesn't fit. It doesn't. It's very literal. Well, it is very literal, and I think also what they're discussing is this idea that they want to put this mobile home or this trailer down to, right?

But still, you have these bodies in the soil, right? And any discovery of those bodies is going to change everything. The obstacles that they're worried about are going to expand exponentially. So clearly they know that. I mean, Lori's already in trouble. sitting in jail, but if they find bodies, that trouble's going to increase dramatically. Correct. And of course, they did find bodies.

And so, again, here's a moment where Lori's actually prescient in the sense that she's alluding to the soil and how the soil could really upend this case. And indeed it did. The soil had a lot of secrets. Yeah, the soil held all of the secrets. Right. The soil, well, yeah, well, I guess you could argue that. with Tammy, but I mean, Tammy and Charles, maybe not so much, but certainly with the children,

the soil was, yeah, was key to really changing the dynamics of this case. I think one thing we learned in this trial, sorry for this tangent, but the one thing I think we learned in this trial was that many, many people were dubbed dark, including many children. So who knows who would have been next? but I certainly think there would be someone that was next, don't you, John? Yeah, they would have, if there were no repercussions, they would have kept going, I think. Certainly, it certainly would have been caused for concern if I was Kay or Larry. Yes, agree. What else?

So shortly after that comment about the trouble with the soil, Chad reassures Lori, and he says, quote, it was part of the blueprint. And then he makes this odd statement. So here I'm going to throw in a statement from Chad. He makes this odd statement where he says, quote, previous group blueprints were the people weren't born either. In other words, there were previous group blueprints where the people weren't. He's referring, I think he's referring to past probations.

And somehow, so somehow this idea of past lives is now, for the first time we see Chad talking about how that's part of this blueprint. and how that became a part of these murders. So I guess, you know, I don't know exactly what he's referring to, but, you know, this reference to group blueprints is interesting. And the people that in these group blueprints, it's important that people weren't born. So I take that to be a reference to, well, again,

he's trying to reassure Lori, but I take that to be a reference to this idea of previous lives and somehow that becomes a part of this blueprint. And I guess he's looked at other group blueprints where somehow the future was told based on people not being bored. So it's an interesting, it's a bizarre statement, but it's an interesting statement because he's clearly referring to past lives here. You're right.

And their importance in this, whole scheme. One thing we've learned, by the way, is that one part of a delusion, this is interesting, is that Lori believed that JJ would return as Colby's son in the future. That's an interesting thought. Those that are not born in referencing to past lives, yeah, people, whatever, but just people, people having past probation and living again and again. So another interesting moment is, so towards the end of this call, Lori starts, I think Lori really starts becoming worried. You know, Chad's reassuring her repeatedly, but she's, she's not buying it.

She's looking for constant reassurance here. And that's interesting too, because I think, you know, Lori has really bought everything that Chad says. But this is a moment where she seems to be on the fence. And that in and of itself is interesting because very rarely is Lori questioning Chad or very rarely is she on the fence. But she seems to be here. Lori's asking again, how do you know? She's referring to the blueprint.

How do you know? And Chad says, quote, it's been shown to me. So what's interesting about that, like this idea of seeing and sight and visions, like this is such an important part of this whole case. Things aren't told to Chad. He sees them. He sees the truth. And that's what he says about his books, too, that they're shown to him. He's always using this visual language, which is interesting.

Because I think what he's trying to do here, when you see something and you claim that you're having a vision from God, I think it gives him more, in theory, it gives him more credibility. He knows the future because he's seen it, and that's indisputable. If somebody told him, it wouldn't have the same power. So this idea, he keeps coming back to this idea of, it's been shown to me or I've seen it, right? And I think that's interesting and important because it, in some ways, if he's seen the vision and it's from God, then it's indisputable.

That was a really interesting moment for me, too, all the reassurance. Yeah. If he sees it, then she knows it's true. And then kind of a final moment that was really interesting to me was they make a reference to Chad makes a reference to muting. He says, quote, that he wanted to quote mute her effect. We kept her in place.

I think he's talking about Tiley. Oh, whoa. It's not totally clear, but it seemed to me that he's talking about Tiley and sort of the repercussions of somebody who challenges him, that they mute her effect. Wow, okay. Mew her effect.

You refer thinking it's Tiley. So I think Chad is making a direct or maybe indirect. He's making an indirect reference to the murder of Tiley in that moment. You see the anger that, you know, they had to mute her effect, her negative effect. He didn't say that. And to keep her in place, right? Like this is, Tiley is someone who challenged him.

She acted out a little bit. She didn't fully believe him. She challenged him with her mother, Lori. And so you still, in this moment, you still see Chad's anger that I think even though Tyley is deceased by then clearly for many months Chad still harbors some anger and some resentment over the fact that Tiley questioned him I certainly think he did Alibubert testified as much that

when she asked where's the girl he was angry and he looked at her and said she didn't like me the resentment absolutely remained right so you see that Chad kind of slips on that. You know, you see it clearly in that moment as well. And then I think the other, you know, the ending of that call is important in the sense that, again, you get this constant reassurance from Chad. And he tells Lori, he says, quote, and our purpose is only beginning. It's hardly begun. And it will be the pair, meaning the two of them.

It won't be solo, right? So he's still, he's still promoting this idea, even though Lori. is in jail. He's promoting this idea that the New Jerusalem is still in play, that this is real, this is their purpose, that they'll do it together, just hang in there, right? Keep the faith. This is going to all work out. And the final thing, Lori says, I know, but I'm saying, you said you have absolute confidence, question mark. And Chad says, absolute assurity, confidence, confirmation. It's going to be as seen. And then he goes on to talk about her immense value. kind of stuff. But again, he's coming back to this idea of seeing and vision and which in his

mind's eye, I think that gives him more credibility. It gives him more power. That was a powerful moment. I think that was something the jury definitely connected to when Chad said that. That was a big part of the call. Yeah. That in addition to some of the Ian Polowski recordings, you know, I think in one of the Ian Ploski recordings, you really get a strong glimpse into Chad's psyche. You know, you see someone who's thrown himself fully into this role of profit, and he's got complete confidence in this role. You know, that's well before Lori's arrest. But it's a fascinating look.

For those people who question whether Chad believed it, I think there's some of the moments in the Ian Plowski recordings. By the way, just so you know when you said, if some people, I think right now, by the way, a lot of people, including your wife, are doubting. I generally believed it. So go on. I'm like, uh. I mean, he, if you read, if you, well, you got, you heard the recordings, right? So he's, he's doing these blessings and, you know, I'll just, I'll just read some of these. I mean, this is, you know, it's possible that if he's shifted out of that role of profit right now today, that he may see things differently. But in, in that moment on December, so these are roughly, these are the December 6th through 8th recordings with Ian, the wiretaps. This is, this is Chad Debo. I mean,

here's Chad Debo, quote, I promise you a home in New Jerusalem. All of us will each have homes there. It will be our home base as we work under the direction of the Savior. And we'll have wonderful reunions there in between our missions. It will be a glorious place where the vibrations will just radiate constantly. And we'll feel the love of the Lord tangibly. We will be be be be pillars of fire. Blessings that have begun for us will just continue to accelerate. This is the language he uses throughout. He says, we'll realize that we are the genesis of the 144,000. We don't say that boastfully. It just is. It's the beginning of a new terrestrial order. I mean, this is, this is not someone who's wavering in his beliefs. You could argue that maybe

that's a, maybe there's a little bit of con in that or a little bit of deception, but I mean, when you read this and hear it, I don't know. This is someone who's all in. I guess my thing is, I think the question for me is when does, when, where do Chad's beliefs stop and start? I certainly think he believed a lot of it. And then I think there's a moment where he just starts manipulating, but I don't know. You know, one of the analogies I like is, I've talked about this before, for people who've seen the documentary Jim and Andy, it's about Jim Carrey playing the role of Andy Kaufman in the movie.

I think it's called The Man on the Moon or something. And Jim Carrey talks about getting into the role of Andy Kaufman to such a large extent that he couldn't get out of it. And after they stopped filming, he still, he was depressed for months because he couldn't get out of the role of Andy Kaufman. Like he felt like he was Andy Kaufman. And there's this moment in the documentary that's incredible. And it's a moment where Andy Kaufman, the comedian, was estranged from one of his daughters. He never talked to or he never had a relationship with her.

And so that daughter visits the movie set. And Jim Carrey is in full Andy Kaufman, you know, role and in costume. And she goes into Jim Carrey's trailer. He's, again, he's dressed as Andy Kaufman. And she talks to him for hours as if she's talking to her father. And then she leaves. And so Jim Carrey plays Andy Kaufman acting as if he's the father to the estranged daughter.

And she leaves somewhat relieved or fulfilled. And I mean, it's, you know, it's, you know, it's. It's clearly not Andy Kaufman, who's addressing his daughter. It's Jim Carrey. But he is so immersed in that role that he's able to, in some ways, he's able to affect some healing with Andy Kaufman's estranged daughter. So I think it could be a little like that. He's so immersed in this role of being the prophet and being the deity

or whatever, however you're translated being, that he believes it when he's in that role at the very least. And I think in many ways he's always in that role, or at least for a long period of time, he's in that role. You know, to give what you're saying, you're right, I do remember you sharing that in our original podcast series. To go along with what you said, I will say, Chad Daybell did not take a plea deal.

And usually when there's death penalty on the table, it's a moment to take a plea deal. to make a deal and he didn't and in in court i'll be honest he he he doesn't seem like he does seem like he thinks he doesn't deserve to be there it's really strange so i will i will share that it's almost like he doesn't understand i there's a part of me that thinks that he might be thinking he's going to not be found guilty. Right, and that's consistent with his believing in the visions and believe, right? You saw that when Lori was in jail and he was attending hearings all the time.

There was, there was like this arrogance about, oh yeah, I get it why she was arrested, but not me. I didn't do anything wrong, right? Like when he was arrested, it was a total shock to him. I think it was a part of Chad Dayball that thinks that if he didn't have a direct hand, in other words, if he didn't actually commit the murders, he feels like he didn't murder anyone. Well, I don't know.

Okay, to push back on that he was shocked, he was arrested, that Emma Dayball dash cam footage that you and I analyzed together, he had no charges and he said, yeah, I'm going to be going away forever. So it's confusing. Um, that, like, those are the type of things that confuse me. I guess you could say, and throwing Lori into the bus. It's like he knows he needs, he knows there's something. He knows there's murders.

Right. You know, he knows he's going away. He knows enough to say, oh, this is the, you know, that vixen's fault or the raccoon's fault or or, you know, all the other people prior is blamed during court. I think it's somewhat confusing because there's such grandiosity. Like one of the things you see in the Ian Polowski, recordings is this incredible hubris, this incredible grandiosity. He's like giving out blessings left and right. He's completely assured about the new Jerusalem and his blueprint, right?

Like, I mean, in that sense, I think in some ways for him, it's not real because he can't see through that prism of hubris. There might be moments where it, where that's pierced a little bit, but for the most part, I don't know. He's, he's so confident in his ball. You know, he's so confident in his everything he does, his blessings, his pronouncements, his blueprints, you know, I don't know. It's. Yeah. The grandiosity is absolutely off the charts.

I think that's where we can all agree. Yeah. And I think to some people, that's very confusing because he comes across as, you know, fairly unassuming and quiet. And I think most people, or some people associate that with humility and don't fully understand that that's, you can have someone. like that, who's completely grandiose. Thank you.

Exactly. Yeah, the idea that people equate quiet or soft-spoken to humble, those don't equate. And it's with him, too, there's moments where he talks about humility, not a lot, but I mean, that makes it even more confusing. You can have a personality like Chad Dayball with this incredible hubris as well. But it's confusing to people because it, so the behaviors are different from the beliefs. He acts fairly unassuming and he's quiet, right? But that's not what he says. Right.

What he says is anybody who's followed us and we've read some of his stuff, like what he says is just completely grandiose. It's just last week we did the love text. There's nothing in those love text. It's so filled with hyperbole and exaggeration that there's nothing in their resembling anything approaching normalcy or there's no middle ground. It's you're the greatest. I'm the greatest.

Right. There's nothing in there that's even remotely tied to reality, number one, and kind of that shows some humility. Right. Nothing. I know. It's funny, for all the people that say he's humble, I have actually never seen anything humble come out of his mouth or writings.

It's almost like you have to look. but you know look between the lines like it's everything even i mean we have some questions actually about his actions in court which i know we've already covered but uh there was a moment john this week where you know they're reading the the the love story the james and elena text in court and two different agents had to respond uh to what the storm is and they had to share what it is and when it was first said, Chad Debao kind of like got a grin. And he looked at the gallery like, oh, you know, look at them.

You see what, you know? It was like this moment. He was like, oh, yeah, you hear that? I mean, it wasn't, he was not mortified. Right, like he wanted to stand up to an ovation or something. Yeah, like you see what I did? You know, I'm sexting. guys right yeah look at me um a terrible one you know uh someone told me that it reminded them of

how to lose a guy in 50 days where uh she's she's she's trying to my guests are laughing by there she's trying to like lose the guy and she's given him nicknames like mr winkle or whatever like of all the names to pick like storm you know That's no 50 shades of gray material. I'm just going to say it. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one. service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. You should not be proud of this, dad. Anyway, sorry. Right. Well, again, it kind of speaks to the, you know, the juvenile nature of their relationship. Very juvenile. Right. Yeah, juvenile to say the least. But so that was a moment. I mean, that's, that's a grandiose. reaction to me though. You know, he's not standing up and saying, look at me, you know, but by smirking at that or going, oh, I mean, that's, there's no humility in that response at all. Right. And the final thing I

would point out, or my final talking point tonight, I think, is we talked a little bit, you had me on one of your lunch lies when you were back here on Monday and we talked about some of the injuries to Tiley. And we don't know for sure if Chad caused those injuries. If I had to speculate, I think he probably did. But the gruesome nature of those injuries and the implications of what that could be, right, that that could be some type of sex crime combined with violence and murder. That puts Chad Be able to a category with serial killers, with, you know, very, very serious killers. It also suggests a sadistic component. And so I think it's important, you know, to me that was an important moment because people mock him and you know you guys call him slug and right there's there's sort of this buffoon

esk type quality to chad dabeau but i think you you have to for me i want to keep coming back to like those injuries to tiley and then this quote this is from the agent heart texts chat is talking about tyly and laurie asks about tiley and her rating and he says quote she is at 0.13 and now this is the This is really important. He said, this is Chad. Quote, I turned up the pain to 10, and I placed a spiritual virus in her. 10, I assume, is the maximum level of pain. So here you see Chad Daibel, the sadist.

Chad Daibel inflicting pain on another human being and relishing it. And this is consistent with some of those injuries that were pointed out on Tiley and on her bones, the slashing, the chopping, right? Like, I think it's really important to keep in mind that this is not necessarily a person, but this quiet, unassuming person that people sometimes think that couldn't, right, that he's trying to portray. This is someone who's trying to turn up the pain to 10 and who quite possibly inflicted some of the most gruesome injuries you could ever imagine on a teenage girl.

A sadist. That's what you're saying. Yeah. There's a sadistic quality to some of these crimes and to his attitude and to his anger. And again, going back to that quote from the jailhouse call where he muted her effect. He kept her in place. All that is consistent with someone who's quite vicious. I think it's important not to lose sight of that.

I agree. Just the text alone show a sadistic quality. and that wasn't the only one. He, throughout this trial, we've probably learned about eight or nine different children that he's dubbed dark from someone that went to church with him that was 12, to his niece, Danica, who is Samantha and Jason Williams' daughter, to Melanie Polowski's children, three of them, of course, JJ and Tiley. The list goes on and on.

Do you think there's something, I guess I wanted to specifically ask you that. It's one thing to be a sadist, it's another to be referring to pain increases in children. And I had that question and somebody else did here too. Is there something he has against children? It seems specifically, I mean, sure, Kay Woodcock was also evil. Heather Daveo is also evil. I'm sure he would like to increase their pain too. but children, just this idea that there was so specifically children were being dubbed dark by him.

And I was curious your thoughts. Well, children are especially vulnerable. So I think sometimes people like Chad Daybell, that threatens them, that vulnerability and that helplessness in children, that innocence. I think sometimes for people like Chad, there's a real threat there because they don't want to acknowledge their own vulnerability. Especially, you know, children that are pushing back against him that, you know, are being disobedient or questioning his belief system. And that would in particular would enrage him, I'm sure. That makes sense.

Not wanting to admit to their own vulnerability would certainly be Chad Debo. Right. Barbara asks, hidden true crime. I heard Lorenze on another podcast that Lori had been told, Chad has been, has thrown her under the bus, but she doesn't believe it. Can you elaborate any further? I guess that was more of a question for me. I can't elaborate too much further, but I can share. I have sources and Lori doesn't believe it. She thinks this is part of the court process and that people don't understand what's really going on. And she probably thinks that if that's what's necessary for

Chad to get acquitted, then he should do it, that she won't take it personally. Yeah, probably, too. I mean, she wants to see him acquitted no matter what. So if, you know, I could see him, in theory, if he were acquitted, I could see him walking that back and visiting her and saying, hey, look, I didn't mean any of that. I just had to do, my lawyer recommended it, right? He's not going to take responsibility for it. Robin B is asking, here's one for you.

How do you text the dead? You know, I wish I knew. There's, that's, that would be, I don't know, maybe like, maybe Verizon has a special network or something. But yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's getting into the realm of fantasy. That if you, if you have the capacity to see beyond the veil, then you can communicate with the dead. You can see the future.

It's all part of that schick. about being a profit. I have this question too. Holly asked, what do you think was the reason for all of the giggling? Is it because they know

they are being listened to because of the ridiculous attempt to code? I'm just wondering what you think. There was a lot of nervous, or I call it nervous laughter, maybe it wasn't nervous. There was a lot of laughter. What were your thoughts about that?

Because they're dealing with inside information so they have to restrain themselves. So I think they're, laughing at the fact that they're not able to be transparent. They're not able to talk about what they really want to talk about. You know, it's sort of a childish quality of we know more than we're letting on and we're playing this little game for the prison, for the jail people. I mean, some of it could be anxiety too, but I think it's more, it's more kind of an

insight information. Like, look how clever we are. You know, we're going to be giddy over this. Do we sense in the prison call that Lori is suddenly doubting Chad's visions? She sounds a little impatient, irritated to me. Yeah, as I said earlier, I feel like she's kind of on the fence here a little bit, and that's rare. There's been very few moments that we're aware of where Lori has questioned Chad,

and she's been on the fence, and I think Chad senses that. So Chad is constantly coming back with the blueprint and trying to reassure her, and right, he ends with the absolute confidence part. So, yeah, I mean, there is a little bit of that. I don't think Lori would ever kind of completely doubt him, but she's certainly concerned. Chad seems to have a possible hatred of children, thoughts on the origin of this.

And he discusses how irritating kids are quite frequently. Another example is his own son, Garth. He did write about how irritating Garth. hating Garth was as a toddler, he would climb on top of cabinets. This is about Garth. Would there be an origin or is it only, are your only thoughts, maybe just a vulnerability? I mean, usually a dislike for children will stem from one's own childhood wounds or deficits. So if you have childhood wounds that aren't healed or dealt with or addressed, then typically those are going to play out in adulthood. So children will serve as kind of an

unconscious reminder of some of those wounds and those wounds will come up repeatedly. So, you know, Chad clearly has some childhood wounds and seems like he hasn't really addressed them. So it's probably, for him, it's more of an ambivalence. I don't think it's true blue serial killer. It's more hatred. It's more pure hatred. Whereas for somebody like Chad, you know, there's some loony, but it's not total. So it's, it's probably ambivalence. He's at moments, he's really upset and frustrated with children. at other moments, he's probably not as much. So I think he kind of wavers a little bit,

whereas someone who has a real hatred for children, I think it's more based on these really deep wounds that have never been addressed or solved at all. All of the transcripts were talking about, including texts. I will put them on Patreon, patreon.com slash into crime. And it was a group effort and corroboration to get all these transcripts in Troublemaker Baker. You're a big help in that.

Do we know anything about Chad's childhood? Do you want to share, you know, his mother testified, do you want to share about the first thing you noted in our first podcast episode? What do we know? We don't know too much, but, you know, his mother testified, and I thought about our first podcast episode. Yeah, well, one of the things I noticed right away after reading Chad's autobiography is he mentioned his mother twice. So in the entire autobiography, he devotes two sentences to his mother, and one of them has to do with something to do with baseball.

I don't remember exactly what it was, but there's nothing positive or kind. He says about his mother, which seems peculiar for an autobiography. And we know from some of our sources that he wasn't very close to his mother, that his mother tended to be a little bit emotionally distant. and I think Chad was someone who really wanted attention. He sought attention. He felt he was special. And so I think because there was some natural distance with his mother, and I could speculate that maybe there's some attachment issues,

maybe there's insecure attachment. If I had to guess, it would be probably anxious and anxious, ambivalent attachment style. But there could very well be some attachment issues. In that sense, I think Chad probably felt neglected. Right. And whether he was or wasn't, it was a feeling he felt he. Right.

Whether objectively, whether we'd say whether he was neglected is debatable, but that's how he probably felt. So subjectively, I think Chad felt as if his childhood was deficient and probably because he didn't get as much attention as he wanted, which would move us in the direction of some type of neglect. Our friend, Websleuth, asked, how do you think the kids will do on the stand? How can they still believe their dad is innocent?

This is going to be a big part of the defense. Yeah. You know, I think it depends on how aggressive the prosecution wants to be. So I think a big part of the testimony of the kids is going to be dependent on whether the prosecution wants to really attack them. And, you know, it's a hard decision because typically, I mean, they're adults now, obviously, but typically the children, you know, are potentially capable of playing on the heartstrings of juries. And I don't know, you know, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be

really fascinating. I think we're all going to watch that closely because, you know, it's not hard to imagine that the children are going to kind of promote Chad's narrative. And so then the question becomes, will the prosecution want to poke holes in that narrative? Will they want to show that whatever Chad said or did that the children would buy it no matter what? And I mean, they can go back to the, was it, they can go back to the 2020 interview where essentially the children were, you know, they were saying exactly that. They were saying that they believed their father wholeheartedly. They haven't challenged him. And they think that Lori and Alex framed him. So the prosecution is going to have some, they're going to have some elements that.

will be useful in pushing back against the children. But I, you know, whether, I don't know, whether they want to do that forcefully or not, I think it's going to be maybe a game time decision. I don't know. It'll be interesting. How could the children still believe that he's innocent? Like, what is it that creates this five years later, this absolute? Their father is all they have. And they grew up with their father. I guess you could argue that they grew up in a culture where their dad was dominant. They grew up. up in a family culture where their dad's perspective was probably unchallenged. They grew up with his beliefs. They grew up with his religiosity. I think in that sense, taking that alone,

putting aside all the evidence, I think taking that culture they grew up, and I think that in and of itself would make it difficult for them to challenge their father or to question their father. So I think in many ways, they're sort of like little cult members in the sense that they are going to buy whatever their father says or they're going to, you know, they're going to believe whatever their father says and they're not going to question it. I agree with that. That makes sense to me. I did something this earlier this week actually about a cult, how I felt that in many ways Chad did run his family a little bit like a cult and coercive control and to not question him. Okay, so Shy Gal asks Dr. John, this is about risk. This is about risk.

Dr. John, if Chad was released, would he likely hurt people again, kill people again? Oh, man. I think to accurately answer that question, I would need to sit in front of, I would need to sit in a jail cell or prison cell with Chad Daybell and do a lot of testing and do extensive interviews. And I don't feel like I know Chad well enough to answer that question. But just off the top of my head, I mean, if I were to result without having that. capacity if I were just to speculate. I would have to think that so the risk would be the risk would be higher if he went forth in the community with the same belief system and he was still looking for people to gather. In other words, if he still wanted to gather the 144, then I would say there's a

problem. If he were to get out, if he were to get acquitted and he were to go into the community and not promote the same beliefs and kind of keep to himself and, you know, become a little more isolated and really maybe possibly even challenge some of those components that got him to this place, then I would say that the risk would probably be lower. For me, risk would all depend on who Chad Daybill ends up being, let's assume he's acquitted. After the trial, going into the community, you know, what does he do? How does he present to the community? Is he still espousing the same beliefs?

he's still trying to gather people, that would be a huge concern. Because then I would see this is potentially repetitive, and I could see him trying to meet a version of Lori again. And I mean, I'd want to say that there's a part of him that learned from this, that he wouldn't want to murder again. But if he puts himself in the same position, or if he were to put himself in the same position, I would have a lot of concerns.

That was a great question. This is exactly what Dr. John does for a lawyer. Hibbing is he assesses risk recidivism. It's a way to be careful. Dr. Dr. Bond also realizes that what he does, I've supported him in this career, and sometimes he will spend days of prisoner doing testing. He'll have to go out of town because he has to do two full days of testing and then another day of interviewing just to conclude your thoughts.

So, right, I understand why you can't just say because it's what you do. And you're very good at it. and you're very careful. Okay, here's my last question. Did you read the transcript of the Ian Polowski recordings? Did you read the transcript the day Alex died? Did you get to that by chance? I sent it late.

But I texted you too. I was like, make sure to check this one out. Did you thought about that? And? I don't know. I think when you put together all the pieces of that puzzle, it's really hard to believe. that he died from natural causes. But certainly what the prosecution is putting out to.

Right. Right. So I, and I think that the transcript was consistent with that perspective. And the way Chad describes it is consistent with that too. That he, part of his mission was to pass away and then help them from Beyond the Vale. You know, Chad says repeatedly that Alex is, in some ways, he said Alex is more useful than I'm deceased than alive. That's what I took from it too. Well, I'm probably going to sign off here soon. So I feel like I'm in a version of home alone, except I'm home and I'm not alone. But I feel like the moment I walk out of my office, I feel like I'm going to walk into the home alone situation, except I'm home and not alone. You're without me.

I've left you. What you're saying is my wife has abandoned me and is living in Boise. And so we're going to sign off and I'm going to. remember that. Abandon might be a little strong, but needless to say that our little guy is probably running around the living room on the couch and having a blast, and I'm a little afraid to walk in there. We'll see what happens.

I'll clean it up, not to worry. I just hope that he's okay. Well, thank you for supporting me and us during this time. this is truly taken a family member and John might not be going to court every day, but he is the reason that I am able to attend court every day. So thank you for making that possible, babe. We appreciate you. Yeah, no problem. You're doing a great job there. I love your, I call them lunch with Lawrence. So I think, I expect, I hope that you'll continue the lunch with Lawrence, of course, we'll jump on other cases after this trial, but you're doing great,

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