Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Dr John assesses opening statements

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Hosts and spouses Dr John and Laure Matthias assess the opening statements from both the defense and prosecution. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom every day, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and consults on high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. LAUREN MATTHIAS was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet.  A podcast that started at their dinner table has now turned into the dynamic husband and wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming at Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Well, before we start, I'm just going to do a quick plug for your lunch lives because they're, I think they're amazing. I've been watching when I can, but I, you know, I'm getting ready for a couple of trials myself in the next two or three months. And I'm a bit swamped with some things at the moment too, but your lunch lives have been really, I've learned a lot from watching your lunch lives and they're really terrific and you're making some great observations that as far as I can tell, no other channels are making and I really appreciate it. And so I think I would urge our gems if they're not tuning into those to really watch your lunch lives because I think you're doing a great job. And I mean, I'm learning so much for it.

from them and please continue them. So where should we start with? Let's talk about the opening statements because obviously those are important. Would you, do you want to start with Rob Wood or do you want to start with John Pryor? Yeah, let's start with. Let's start with, oh, go ahead. Yeah, let's start with Rob. Okay.

I like that. Rob Wood. Rob would. I think he did a good job. let me start by saying that. He came out of the blocks with a statement about what he said. I'll just read. I'll summarize essentially what he said.

He said two dead children were buried in Chad Daybell's backyard, and his wife was found dead in their marital bed. And 17 days later, he was married in Hawaii to Lori Valladaybe. So, I mean, you know, you and I both know this case is extremely complicated. complex. And I think in those couple of sentences, he captured the essence of it. And so in that sense, I applaud him for starting with, you know, he didn't mention, he mentioned Charles Vallow's murder later, but the two dead children and the death of Tammy are the main charges here. So he came out of the blocks with those. I thought that was well done.

And then he's already creating a story. He's creating a narrative. By throwing in the 17 days later, he gets married in Hawaii to Lori. He's obviously starting to, you know, he's getting the jury's attention. And one thing I've talked about often in the past is the juries respond to stories. Juries often will convict based on who tells the better story. And not only that, not just the better story, but the better story that's backed up with evidence.

So if you can get the evidence to fit a narrative that makes sense and it's coherent and it's logical, that's typically the one that's going to sway the jury. So when a defense team comes out with kind of a haphazard story or a disconnected story or when they don't really mount a defense that makes a lot of sense or doesn't really challenge the evidence sufficiently, they're at a little bit of a disadvantage. Although the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, that tends to give the defense,

depending on the situation, it might give the defense a little edge to start off because beyond a reasonable dart is a fairly high standard to reach. So most defense teams, their initial goal is just to introduce some reasonable doubt, whatever that looks like. And prior, by the way, jumping ahead of prior is clearly trying to do that. he's throwing in questions about DNA evidence and forensic evidence. And so he's trying to get the jury's attention in terms of, you know, reasonable doubt. That is the prosecution going to make their case in such a solid way that it is beyond reasonable doubt?

That is the concern, right? Is a good story is one thing, but that reasonable doubt is a stressful thing. And I think it's what I've been feeling. I think he started with a really good summary that he kind of put the main story out there that you have two dead children. You have a dead deceased wife. You have him getting married quickly afterwards. I think that's laying the foundation. And he talks about that Chad was trying to fulfill.

This is a term that Rob used. He was trying to fulfill, quote, his rightful destiny. So he's throwing in this idea of, which I think. think is completely pertinent to Chad Daybell, but this idea of that there is a teleological argument, meaning that there is, that the goal here is to reach a specific goal or a specific endpoint. And for Chad Daybell, that is the end of the world, the apocalypse, and then the second coming, and then the new Jerusalem, which is out of the book of revelations. But the idea of a rightful destiny, I think he's also.

trying to say that Chad is, he sees this as inevitable. And that his rightful destiny, by the way, as he, so he brought, like they did with Lori, they brought in the idea of sex, money, and power as the main motivations driving Chad. So not surprisingly, they're tying it in with Lori's case in the sense that they see those as the main motivations and those are the elements of the case

that they're going to focus on. He also did describe Chad as being ambitious, that he sees this as a case of ambition. And, you know, that actually reminded me a little of Macbath, because for those who know me, they know I love Shakespeare and Macbeth is one of my favorite plays. And the famous turn in Macbeth is vaulting ambition.

It's a story of ambition and someone who wanted to be killed. king and would would search for the crown no matter what it took to get there, including murder and murdering many families, by the way, along the way. So I think that was a strong start. You know, I think it's a very difficult case to summarize. To save the least. Right.

And so I think any prosecution team is up against it in this case. because it's not something that can be summarized simply. But I think he put the main components out there. And obviously his job is to prove what he said to back it up with facts. But I think he did a good job of doing that. I think he was maybe a little nervous. But, you know, I think there seemed to be a little anxiety. But, I mean, he's on a worldwide stage.

so I don't blame him. I think I would be extremely nervous in that predicament as well. But I think all told, he cared himself well and did a good job. I think it's a challenge for a prosecutor to determine how emotional to get versus kind of, you know, how rational versus how emotional. And I thought that he tried to walk that type. rope, but I mean, he wasn't particularly emotional. He was, he was pretty stoic for the most part, but, you know, that could go either way in terms of presenting this type of case. If you get overly

emotional, then the jury can think you're overly invested and you're not being rational enough and, you know, leading on facts. And if you're overly rational, it appears that you're too detached. So I don't, it's a, it's a really difficult line. to walk, but I think, I think Rob did a good job overall, and he set the stage. And then at the end, he came back to the, he summarized again. So he bookended his opening statement with his final statement, with, he came back to the two dead children in the backyard and his wife, you know, Tammy in found dead in her in the marital bed. So I thought that, that was a compelling way to end. is that he went back to the,

he reiterated that opening sentence at the end. So I covered kind of the basics of Rob Wood, but John Pryor's opening statements are really interesting. I think the big theme from the opening statement of John Pryor is, from what I can gather, is that Lori is this femme fatale who seduce Chad DeBes, daybell and took him on this wild ride and left him breathless and apparently when he caught his breath he learned that a bunch of people were dead and somehow he had nothing to do with that so right which which

obviously is is why rob would begin his opening statement by saying that they were in his backyard but you know one of the things that the defense attorneys do is that they try to reframe everything. So for those mental health professionals out there that know when we deal with mental health problems, that's kind of one of the tricks of mental health professionals is to try to describe it. And reframing is when you take something and you try to spin it a little bit and present it more positively. So if somebody's suffering from severe depression, for example, you know, reframing that would would would would would try to lessen that description or we would try to redescribe it from being severely depressed to being a little I don't know a little upset or something

so in other words it's reframing is is spinning something to put a you know put it in a more positive light and clearly you know that's what defense attorneys do that's their job So, you know, Rob Wood says that the bodies were found in Chad's backyard. And then Pryor comes and says in his statement, he says that he had a farm and that the bodies were in a pasture, kind of implying that his property was so large, apparently, that Alex Cox. I mean, Alex Cox, by the way, is going to be a big player in this defense, no doubt. but the implication I think was that the Chad, because his yard is so large and he lives on this farm with a pasture,

which he wouldn't call his backyard, that yeah, of course a couple bodies could turn up, because how would he know? How could he possibly know that Alex Cox and Lori were placing bodies in his backyard, or, you know, in his pasture on his farm? Right. So you have priors trying to take what seems obvious, to the prosecution and reframe it in such a way that the jury might question it.

So he's obviously starting that process. He's mentioned that he'll show, according to him, that the DNA evidence is not accurate or false. He mentioned that several times that, Lori, you know, pursued, I'm going to quote him, that Lori quote pursued him, encouraged him, you know, so he's trying to reframe their relationship also, obviously, right? He's trying to present this love story as a story in which Lori is this vixen, this black widow, who pursues him, overwhelms him, takes control of him.

and somehow or another commits these crimes. So he's well on his way to doing that. Or I should say he's well on his way to trying to do that. Yeah, he is. It's making me a little nervous, actually. Nervous in the sense that you think that's accurate or nervous that the jury may buy into that well-worn trope of the, you know, Black Widow.

Well, let me remind you when we started our podcast in 2020 and we started with Chad Dave L. We didn't really know how quickly our podcast would grow. And we started with Chad. We turned on the microphones in our living room for the first time. And I said, okay, let's talk about Lori. And your first response to me was, well, before we talk about Lori, we really need to talk about Chad. I was like, okay. And then we turned on for episode two

and you weren't done with Chad and then we ended up talking about Chad for the next five episodes while people screamed at us and said when are you going to talk about Lori? And the reason people were more interested in Lori is because they thought just that that there hadn't been a lot of evidence that had come out and they did think that she was the black

widow and that they everybody so many people wrote oh my goodness Chad Debo was probably next. You know he was going to be killed by her. So if we go back to a time and place where there was very little evidence on this case. What did people jump to? They jumped to Lori Vallow being a black widow and Chad Daybell really just being lucky to be alive. So with that in play, yeah, I'm nervous.

Right. If you start with the assumption that the jury knows nothing about this case, then you, right, then you'd have concerns that perhaps, that argument might have some traction, that if you have even one jury member who believes that someone like Lori could come along and to use the term that prior used, he said she's very manipulative, that she changes everything.

He described her, he talked about her many marriages, right? I mean, he's clearly portraying her as someone who, well, let's back up for a second. And let's think about, so the problem, here's the problem with Pryor's argument is that in order for that narrative to be compelling, he has to assign a motive to Lori. And, you know, he, his opening statement was disjointed in the sense that he didn't present any, he didn't present a, he didn't present a. compelling story that was coherent. He threw out a bunch of fragments about that Lori, clearly he's portraying her as this vixen that's seductive and manipulated Chad and led him on this whirl and romance that

Chad wasn't prepared for. But it's not clear why. It's not clear what the motives are. And I think that's where he really runs into problems. So if you look at, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you try to dig deeper into the story that Pryor's about to tell, I think there's only a few places you can land. And so a big part of the story would be Alex Cox.

So he talks about Alex Cox as being Lori's protector, that Alice Cox would do anything to protect her, that Alice Cox was always there for her. And so I think, so if you want to assign motive here, I think you'd have to look at the possibilities. And the first possibility is, is he going to go to Alex Cox being the lone wolf protector? Is it possible, right? These are the options. Is it possible that Alex Cox did this because somehow he saw Lori getting caught up in this romance with Chad Dable that wasn't good for her? And he did it. I don't know how that would be protecting her, by the way, to murder all these people. but I'm just, I'm following the logic of Pryor's argument here.

Did Alex Cox act on his own? Did he somehow think that Lori needed to have this done, right? And so is it possible that we can point the finger at Alex and blame him for everything? That would be one option. I don't really see that as a compelling argument because I'm pretty sure that the evident that the prosecution put on evidence showing that that Alex took direction from everyone else, including Lori. So I think the lone wolf argument is going to be a real stretch. You know, it's possible that prior might, you know, a defense team does not have to give motive.

Again, they only have to establish reasonable doubt. So he could throw out, he could throw out 50 ideas and hope that one or two stick. So he doesn't necessarily have to, do what I'm suggesting here, which is to present a story with motivations and reasons. And I think if he did, it would be more compelling. But I think he knows there's a risk of doing that. But anyway, so this is one option. He might imply that Alex took this on his shoulders and did everything and Lori didn't know.

You know, another problem with that is obviously Lori's convicted. So Lori's a convicted murderer. So clearly she had a role and she played a role and she knew what was going on. But that's one option. The other is that Lori asked Alex Cox to help and she did it behind Chad's back without Chad knowing. So that perhaps her motive was that because she saw herself and Chad establishing this new Jerusalem and she knew the apocalypse is coming, perhaps she asked Alex to, to do it so that Chad and herself could act unimpeded in terms of gathering the 144,000, right,

that they could walk into the New Jerusalem without having to worry about children and taking care of children. And so I guess that's another argument here, is that you'd have to say that Lori took it upon herself to have Alex commit these murders without Chad knowing so that she could then align with Chad and the two of them could, you know, walk into the Second Coming or the New Jerusalem without having to worry about, and they could gather the flock without even to worry about children. Okay. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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this is Chad's belief system, right? If Chad is driving the bus here, then that's going to be a really hard argument to make. But he could say that Lori's motive, and again, Lori's a convicted murderer, so he could say that Lori's motive was to join with Chad without the children in the way. Right.

Which is what Rob Wood is sort of set up, that Chad wanted the children out of the way. That's sort of what Rob would. I know we're talking about Pryor, but isn't that sort of what Rob would? But what I'm saying, what I'm saying is that

Pryor's trying to shift that narrative and say that it wasn't Chad that wanted the children out of the way. It was Lori. It was Lori. Right. They had similar motivations. It's just that, again, Pryor's argument, they have the same motivations. It's just that

Lori did it and not Chad, that Lori was the one who wanted the children out of the way. Right. Right. That was Lori.

Lori is the reason for everything. Can we talk about, can I ask you to about, I mean, one of the things John Pryor was

sharing about Lori was her sexuality a lot. That, I mean, he explained that Lori had a history, John Pryor did. First of,

no one can bring up the fact that Joe Ryan might have been murder because police have stated twice now that it's natural causes. So there is no murder of Joe Ryan to bring up. So the things that John Pryor brought up about Lori to imply that she has a past is that she had been divorced and remarried. She had several marriages and that her brother Alex went to prison for tasing her ex-husband, Joe Ryan.

None of those give Lori a record. And then the other issues that he brought up with Lori's past are that Lori is a sexual person. And he kept referring to that a beautiful, drop-dead gorgeous. And he used the word sexual, that she's sexual. Like, that was something that is concerning. What do you make of that? I'm just curious your thoughts about that, that being part of his defense. I go back to, what's the motive?

I know. That's the problem here. Like, if you can't give me a motive, it's one thing to say to point the finger at Lori and say, okay, she's responsible. She did all this. But why? The problem with that argument is she is sitting in prison right now for the rest of her life. Three lives over she's sitting in prison. And she is still so devoted to Chad Daybell.

I know. But the jury doesn't know that. I know the jury doesn't know that, right. But I mean, I'm just saying that that's correct. I mean, it's unfortunate the jury doesn't know that. But what, I mean, what's her goal? So is it, is it that Lori, I use the term femme fatale, right? Is it, is it that Lori and is she sedestine?

I mean, maybe she, we know she is kind of sadistic, but I mean, is it, so is this someone, is this just a woman who runs over man, she intentionally harms them, she uses them, and Chad was just at the wrong place at the wrong time? He's just a nice guy that happened to be giving a, you know, a lecture at a conference, and Lori just came up and introduced herself. and from there on he just couldn't, he had no choices. He couldn't control himself. He just went along with the program, right? So in order to think that, you'd have to argue that, that Lori is using him and harming him intentionally just because she likes it, just because she enjoys it.

That's neglecting this whole larger narrative about the second coming. And, right, I mean, I mean, it's, it's ignored. And Chad's history, go ahead, sorry, the second coming. That you can't, you can't make, you can't make sense of this case. If you, if you point the finger at Lori and you just say, she's this femme to tell who checked Chad Deb on this ride.

And she got rid of the kid, she used Alex to kill the children for no apparent reason, other than the fact that she wanted to cause harm to someone that she could, she could manipulate and use. and for, I don't know, use for what is not clear. Like money, is it money? Is it sex? As many people have pointed out, I mean, let's say it's sex. Pryor's bringing that up a lot.

She's, her previous marriages involved people that many people have commented on seemed like better suited partners for her. Let me, let me decipher what John is saying. He's saying, Chad wasn't much of a looker. I think that if her, if what she wanted was sex, there were other options. I sometimes have to just come down and gone saying. Okay. Right.

If she's, if she's just interested in money and sex, let's say, hypothetically, again, putting this on Lori, then there's other, she has many, I'm sure she has many other options to pursue in terms of men that are a lot wealthier than Chad Daybell. and men that might be more sexually appealing to Lori than Chad Daybell. You know, we've talked about this. What's the physical attraction to Chad Daybell? Many people have asked us this. And I think it's not necessarily about the physical attraction.

It's about his belief system. It's about being enamored by his books and seeing his books as scripture. Right. And that's where Pryor can make this argument. but he's ignoring the context. He's ignoring the fact that all of this is occurring in the larger context of religious beliefs and extreme religious beliefs.

And that's where Chad Daybell, that's where his history comes into play here. And you can't ignore it. You can't just, I mean, you can. Pryor's trying to do it. You can point the finger at Lori and say this is all about her. But in some ways you're denying that larger contact. you're denying that history that wraps around this case and smothers this case with,

you know, Mormon history and beliefs, extreme beliefs, and certain religious beliefs, right? I've said this repeatedly, and I'll say it again now, that every death,

every murder that occurred in this case, and even the people like Brandon Boudreau that were shot at, every one of them was considered to be dark, a dark spirit. Every one of them was called a zombie. That's the commonality, right? And so every zombie was designated a zombie by Chad Daybell. So for Lori and Alex Cox to go along with these murders, they had to buy into that belief that they were killing zombies.

They were murdering zombies. and murdering zombies can be attributed to that belief can be attributed to Chad Daybell. But Pryor wants you to forget that little piece. Pryor wants you just to think, well, okay, yeah, you know, he talked about that in his opening statement. He said, he wrote these books. He said, you know, he was a man of faith. He talked about premonitions. He didn't even use the term visions, by the way.

That was interesting. He said, he said, Chad wrote these books where he talked about premonitions, not visions. He talked about good and evil. He talked about darker subjects. Like, again, here's Pryor, and you know, Pryor's trying to do his job. He's a defense attorney. He's trying to reframe this. He's trying to say, Chad wrote these books. He knew they were fiction. He didn't really mean anything when he, you know, that he was just, this was a question of his faith. And so, so he's minimizing Chad Daybell's involvement. and Chad Daybell's beliefs.

Chad's Daybell's beliefs drive this whole narrative. That's the point. And I hope the prosecution, you know, I know they'll focus on this, but they understand that you can't explain Lori and Alex without looking at the larger picture of Chad's beliefs and how they drive these murders and the whole thing. I agree. If somebody's not deemed to be dark, then they're fine.

They're off the hook. They're not going to be at risk. And if you, you know, even Tiley understood that. Yeah. All the players understood that. Zulema understood it. Melanie Gibb understood it.

In fact, I'm going to read, this is from this is from the probable cause statement when Lori was charged with murder in Arizona. Okay. This is the last page. Okay. Now, some of this is redacted.

We have some gems that are incredible in terms of figuring out what the redactions are. So I'm using the work of some of our gems here. Yeah, thank you, Julie Holden. And I do think we have the unredacted somewhere. But yeah, we haven't been talking. So you pulled this. It's public. Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you, Julie Holden for Julie's a wizard at figuring out. out what the terms are, what should be in the redaction. So this is the last page. Melanie Gibb and Zulema Pestanis have both indicated that Lori got her advice and direction from Chad Daybell. Those are two major players in this situation. Melanie and Zilema have indicated that Lori got her advice and direction from Chad Daybell. When giving instructions, Zilema stated that Lori would always say, I have been told. So Lori would always say, before taking out action on anything I have been told.

She's been told by Chad Daybell. Messages identified above have indicated that Chad Daybeau was aware of the work with zombies and specifically the work that Zulema and Laura were, Lori were doing on Charles prior to 7-11 to 2019, which is when Charles was murdered. I don't know, like, the prosecution is clearly going to call witnesses that are going to show that this wasn't Lori leading the charge. This wasn't Lori designating people as light and dark. This wasn't Lori giving directives to people. That Lori, and again, Lori would always say, I have been told.

That doesn't sound like someone to me that's manipulating Chad Daybill and grabbing him by the hand. and pulling them along without his volition, without Chad Debel having any agency. I'm sorry, but you just... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet,

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I said grab him by the hand and pull them along. And all I could think about was the text used in the closing statements for Lori and the text Chad sent Lori that said, if you grab me by the something out, the storm, I will go anywhere. you want me to go. Sorry, is that a problem? Yeah, go ahead. Right. So point taken is I guess what I'm saying. The other thing that prior, so prior also is getting a lot of his facts wrong. The other thing that prior said is that he talked about Charles getting murdered. He said Alex shot him. He said, quote, Chad, quote, had nothing to do with the execution of Charles. Let me read again from the probable cause statement out of Chandler.

Arizona. Yeah, before you do that, I would say to people saying, oh, Bull, Lori Valo was driving the bus. Show me the evidence. When you read thousands of pages of evidence, when you sit through Lori Valo's trial, it's not what is shown. Go ahead, John. Yeah, I mean, if somebody believes that, then they're on board with prior, because they're essentially saying that Lori was responsible for everything.

I mean, people can obviously have their own opinion and interpret the evidence differently, but that's not what her trial showed. Right. It's not what her trial showed. So this is regarding the murder of Charles Vallow. This is from the, again, this is from the probable cause statement out of Chandler. Quote, after the murder of Charles Vallow, Chad Dable not only searched for articles linked to his death, but he placed a call to the mortuary, which is recorded, by the way.

Chad placed a call to the mortuary where Charles was to be taken to inquire into the cremations, into cremation services. During this phone call, Charles, I mean, I'm sorry, during this phone call, Chad Dayball used a family member's name, but provided information that would suggest he was calling about Charles. And by the way, the conclusion of the probable cause was that, quote, it is recommended that Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell be charged with conspiracy to commit murder for the death of her husband, Charles Vallow on 7-11, 2019. So for prior to suggest or say that Chad Daybill had absolutely nothing to do with the execution

of Charles is not consistent with this probable cause statement at all. Chad was calling the mortuary trying to figure out how to get the body cremated. Why would he do that if he knew nothing about it? So, you know, I mean, part of a big part of this trial, I'm sure is going to be trying, hopefully, is going to be the prosecution trying to set the record straight and to correct those inaccuracies. Chad Debaugh was not just some innocent guy who had nothing to do with Charles Vell's death. he's not being charged in that case, but he knew about it. He was calling the mortuary.

He was using fake names to get information. He was looking up information on the internet about Charles's death after it happened to see what was going on, to get information. Was Alex Cox going to be charged with murder? Was he not? Right? Like, if he had no interest or involvement in that, why was he doing it? So, but again,

And the defense's job is to get the jury to question information and question facts and question evidence. And that's what he's trying to do here. But is it accurate to say that Chad had nothing to do with it? The other thing that Chad did in that particular case is he called charge. He started the whole process in motion. He called Charles Vallow dark. He said that Charles Vallow was possessed by an evil spirit named Ned Schneider. If you look at the body cam footage before Charles was murdered, Charles is pleading with police to do something about Lori because Lori met this guy, Chad, and they're calling him this evil spirit, Ned Schneider, and he's afraid for his life.

Rightly so, by the way. Yeah, there's a witness to that, Melanie Gibb. For anyone that are curious about all this, I put a lot of this evidence in our Chad Dayville crash course, but Melanie, Melanie, Gibb states this moment that Chad told Lori that Charles was dark and a zombie named Ned Schneider and Lori was shocked and taking it in. But here's my question though, John. Sorry, go ahead and I'll ask it later. Yeah.

So what I'm saying is that what prior is going to argue, and obviously we've already had some listeners tonight that seem to agree with them, all he needs to do is get one juror. that refuses to budge on this issue and Chad Dable's not convicted. So that's okay. This is my question. This is what I'm saying. There are people in this chat right now saying, no, Lori was driving the bus. You're wrong.

And I'm like, so you guys just want to believe. I mean, honestly, it's a misogynistic view in my opinion. You want to believe that because Lori was sexy that Chad had to kill the, you know, mother of his five kids. In other words. because Lori was like so enticing Chad that he just had no choice but to you know that he she had to influence this you know what if one juror on there is a misogynist like some of the comments in this chat what if one and look I'm not defending Lori Gallo thank goodness she's going to be behind bars for the rest of her life for the rest of her life may she never see step out and have a bit of freedom ever again but that narrative is to pretty much saying, yeah, you know, poor Chad, you know,

he was grabbed by the store, what else was he supposed to do? He was enticed, like, listen to this comment. This is crazy. This is crazy. Okay. Let's hear it. Great Hughes says, I think Chad just was appeasing Lori's wishes of deeming certain people zombies.

And that's why he killed the mother of his five kids because he was just appeasing Lori's wishes. And so, I mean, what if there's one guy on the juror? the things like that. Lori, Laurie doesn't, Lori didn't have the imagination to come up with that system.

Chad wrote books, he wrote, I don't know, how many books is he written? He's written 11, but I don't remember the number, but he's, Chad has written a ton of books of fiction. On similar themes. Chad clearly has the imaginative capacity to

develop this system and to see where it can lead and to draw people into this belief system, he drew a lot of people in. So I don't, honestly, I don't think Lori is so literal and so concrete. I don't think she comes up. I don't think she's capable of developing this system of light and dark and assigning numbers to it

and claiming that certain people are light. I mean, I guess anybody could do it, but, I mean, it's pretty simple, but. Well, just like the evidence. The evidence shows it was Chad. Every next they send each other shows it was Chad. You know, but I just am worried. I'm just worried because clearly the evidence is enough for a lot of people in this chat.

And, you know, for those people that are skeptical, let's see what, right, let's see what the evidence is. I mean, that's the prosecution's job is to present that evidence and to show that Chad wasn't some innocent bystander who was who was somehow being duped by Lori, Chad was making the rules. Right. And the evidence shows that. And I'm not saying, and I'm not excusing Lori by saying that,

throw away the key for Lori. She, she allowed her children to be killed if not participated. Yeah, right. I mean, she's despicable. She knew. She knew. She went along with it.

she bought into it, she participated, she was a co-conspirator, that's why she's convicted of murder. Right. But I guess in theory, I guess if you, if Chad definitely has an advantage. He does, this is why. With her trial going before his, he has a huge advantage. He gets to see the strategies. He gets to see the evidence. He gets to see the way with the prosecution's arguments.

and he gets a chance to throw Lori under the boss, which clearly is about to happen. So I'm sure much to Lori's surprise, by the way, much to Lori's chagrin. I don't think Lori believed that her hero was going to throw her under the bus, but here it is. Well, I'm going to trust the evidence.

I keep going back to the evidence. You keep going back to the evidence, just reading that simple probable cause. And so I want to say that I do have faith. I have faith that the evidence will show the jurors that Chad Davey all needs to be held. And this isn't, I'm reading this from the probable cause because this is the conclusion the police came to.

And this is the conclusion they came to after talking to numerous witnesses and looking at all the evidence and look, right? And so that's a summary. But I mean, you and I have heard Melanie Gibb talk about it. You and I have heard a number of people talking about the fact that Chad, if you think of this as a cult, this is Chad's cult. This isn't Lori's cult. So I don't know, I mean, you know, people are tighter their own opinions, obviously, and they'll see things differently, and that's fine. You know, we want a dialogue about it,

but I mean, if, but make it, give me an argument, give me some evidence, like show me why Lori was in charge. Show me why and how she was in charge. And give me a motive. A motive. A motive. Right. Because, I mean, Lori, there's no clear motive for Lori to just murder

all these people. And also, by the way, with Tammy, Lori wasn't even, Lori was in Hawaii when Tammy Daybell was murdered. Chad was right there. Her death. Her death. Her death was ruled a homicide. by the examiner, medical examiner,

there were bruises on her body, on her arms like she was held down. I mean, Lori didn't do that. Lori wasn't there. I guess then you, to implicate Lori and Tammy Daybell's death, you'd have to argue that she was giving directions to Alex Cox or Chad. At the very least, let's assume that Alex Cox murdered Tammy Daybill's. David. Let's just say that because the so-called paint gun incident was not a paint,

it wasn't a paintball gun. It was a gun. Right. But, and you had some interesting things to say about that, by the way. I did on my lunch life. I showed John that lunch life. I was like, take a look, babe. This is what I'm doing every day. I totally agreed that it didn't become a paintball gun until after the fact, until Chad got in Tammy's ear and convinced her. Oh, that, you know, oh, don't worry, Tammy. That wasn't, Nobody was trying to kill you.

That was just a paintball gun. Classic Chad that his wife is calling, you know, she's screaming for Chad, and then she ends up being the one that calls 911. You know, I know that you, John, if someone, if I ever came screaming, if someone was pointing at me with a gun, you'd be the one on the phone calling 911. And so you can hear Chad in the background. Tammy's having to call 911 herself after screaming for her husband. And yeah, I'm sure he was like, I'm sure it's a paintball gun, dear.

Yeah, we now know that it was Alex Cox who had a real gun that would have, if he was a better shot, that Tammy would have died in that moment. But it was reframed as just a minor incident. Like somebody in Rexburg, Idaho just gets a paintball gun and wants to go after Tammy Daybell for no apparent reason just because it's fun. Tammy Daybell has no enemies in Rex. I mean, it doesn't add up. But let's go back to, let's go back. So let's assume,

let's say that Lori's in charge. She's in Hawaii. So Lori has to give the directive to Alex Koch to go into Chad's home and murder Tammy. Well, I guess the argument with Tammy is not going to be that she was murdered. The argument prior setting up is that her health was indeed horrendous. And there was natural causes.

Because he said he's going to call the Daybill children are all going to take the stand and they're going to tell us that she had serious health problems. And she refused to see a doctor in spite of all her health problems. So I think he's not going to argue that Lori participated in that particular murder, even though by the way she's convicted, she's convicted of being a co-conspirator in the murder of Tammy Daybell. So I don't know if the prosecution can bring that. in, by the way. But it would be very helpful if they could make that argument. But so I guess

Pryor's leaning towards natural causes with Tammy Debeau, which would take, which would make sense, because in order to argue that Laurie participated, that Lori, if Lori murdered Tammy Debo, it would be through Alex Cox, but Alex Cox would still have to enter the home, that Chad Debo would have to let him in the home, presumably because he would know what was about to happen, right? I don't think he can go that route. Right, right. Thank you. A couple questions.

A couple great comments. Thank you, everyone. Are people getting you riled up? Well, I think I got feisty there. And so, yeah, maybe it's true. I was riled up a little bit before seeing some comments, John knows. And so I've just, like I said, put my phone away and then we found out we were 30 minutes late to our lives.

Well, you are genuinely worried about this line of argument that you're afraid that people are going to really latch on to it. Or some of the jury members might latch on to it and ignore their larger context, ignore the fact that this is Chad's belief system that, as I just read, that when people responded to Chad, they said, I have been told, meaning that, you know, they've been told by Chad. right so so this is another thing i didn't show you this lunch live but i did another lunch live it was the day where john prior was explain i guess it was opening statements it was my opening statements loved which live where john prior was explaining that lory you know had a history and and chad did not have a history he was just a good family guy who served a mission and got married and had five kids so i pointed out what collier's pointing out that chad davelle did have a

Chad Debel did have a history and his history was attempting to seduce women with this idea that he had been past life spasses and he was actively looking for women and

Julie Rose says that you know Chad Debel got on top of her during a energy healing session and molested her. I mean we have right you know there's an Arizona woman. We know that he told Melanie Gibby was married to her in a past life. That's kind of a history.

And if the history that John Pryor pointed out was about Lori being sexual and other things that are not illegal, then this, too, is a history to bring up. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they're not going to get Julie Roe on the stand. But yes, there appears to be. And you've interviewed some other people that knew Chad quite well. that have said the same thing, that he, at the very least, he had very poor boundaries around other women. And this is when he was married. So, but at the very least, he had poor boundaries.

But in some cases, engaged in sexual assault. So, yes. So this is not, again, this is, this is, this is not someone who is going to, you know, just submit to Lori. to, you know, to Lori's wily seductive charms. I mean, this is some guy. Right, exactly. There's prior history on all of it. Patricia says the kids are going to testify that Tammy was sick.

That bothers me. She was using essential oils and refusing to see medical providers, according to prior. I hope the state can rebut that. You had a lot to say on the phone one night. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making. billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then

packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls, and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker's sites and

keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN.

ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at Aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. We are catching up and you learned this information, John. Well, it's Yeah, I think I said something to the effect of, oh, great, the kids are going to go perjure themselves to save their dad. I, you know, I said that at the time, that was probably a bit strong. And the reason that was strong is because to the children who are obviously smitten with their father

and could never believe that their father would be capable of murder, to the children, I think that their father is convinced them that it was natural causes. And the children have blinders on and they haven't looked at the evidence, obviously. They weren't, I'm sure they weren't paying attention to Lori Valo Daibel's trial. And so, you know, at some level, I guess they probably believe that narrative. I think their dad has convinced them that their mother was really sick and died of natural causes. So is that, you know, is that accurate? it. I know, not based upon the Lori's trial, but it's going to be compelling to have four of his kids get up there and say my mom was really sick. So I wasn't surprised by this, right? It's the kind of

thing that could definitely have some influence on a jury. Right. My Zumba loving, clogging, marathon training, 49-year-old mother, who was also working a full-time job as a librarian and running a publishing company wanted to go to bed early and she had to rub essential oil on our legs. You know, heaven forbid, it might have been depression or the fact that she was running 10 million miles an hour and was tired. But yeah, they might do that. They might do that. And it is certainly compelling. And, you know, for Lori's trial, they had the Zumba instructor of Tammy's testify how in shape she was.

But then Emma DeBel went to those Zumba classes with her mother. So that's... Well, you have, you also have the medical examiner ruling in a homicide. You have the injuries on her body. You have the larger context. You have him getting married almost two weeks later, you know, getting married in no time whatsoever and claiming that he didn't, they didn't have any children. Like you've got, again, and that's not. direct evidence, but you have Chad changing his story a number of times about how she died,

what happened. Changing her story is never a great sign. I'm sure they're probably going to find some more witnesses to say that her health was fine. There's no medical records to support that she was sick. I guess you could argue she didn't go to doctors, but still, if she was really sick. I mean, I can't imagine that she might not go to one doctor. So there's no support in terms of medical records. There's, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's a little problematic, but there's also the interview with the children. The children did an interview in what, like 2022 or 2021? I think 2021. Yeah. The children did an interview. in 2020 where they essentially said, I believe everything my dad says. I think he was framed.

I think he's innocent. And so you can show that they're biased. I think you can show fairly clearly. I don't know what the prosecution is going to use, but I think you can show that the kids, the kids aren't really processing reality here. They don't want their father to go away and they believe everything he tells them, which by the way is what somebody who leads a cult does. They get you to believe things that you might not normally believe. But in that family culture, Chad reigns supreme. And I'm sure his kids aren't going to question him. Chad was a dominant guy.

And I'm sure his kids went along with the program. So I would imagine that on cross with his kids, they'll ask him those types of questions. And maybe they can play the video from 2020 where they're like, you know, they say quite explicitly, my dad's innocent. He was framed. They already had that narrative two years ago. They haven't budged from it. They visit him in jail and he tells them that he's innocent and they believe it. So I don't know. It'll be interesting. At the very least, it'll be interesting.

Lisa, thank you so much. It will be interesting. We need to do these lives more. There's so much to say, how are you doing? We do have a Patreon live that we have to do as well. So how are you doing? What do you want to still cover, John? I think those are, I'm trying to see. I'm just, again, I go back to if, if, if this is Lori and Alex Cox on this breakaway, on this murderous rampage without Chad knowing anything, I still, it bothers me.

so much to think that, number one, people are losing the larger picture, but also, like, what's the most, I can't, there's no motive there that makes any sense. And I think, but, and that's my hope is that juries, juries want the most compelling story. And if a defense team gets up there and they throw out a bunch of different ideas and they don't all fit. That's confusing to juries. I don't know that Pryor's going to make that fit. He's going to have to give Lori some motives that make sense to a jury. And I don't, I, you know, again, like if, if you argue that Lori and Alex Cox framed Chad Debo, why did they do it? She was his most devoted, his most devoted servant. She had no motivation to do that.

I mean, yeah, the jury won't see that, but we can see it. Yes. The question is why? If you're going to buy that, why would she do that? Right. And that prior, he doesn't, again, he doesn't have to explain that, but I think that's going to be a challenge for him. And I think jury members could be shaking their head saying, well, okay, you know, she's, she's this vixen that seduced him and let him astray. and maybe she got her brother to commit these murders.

But why did she do that? Did she do it just because she's malicious and wants to murder her kid? Like, right, you have to tell me a story that makes sense. Right. Right. Edomami, Edamami says there's no way prior came up with all these defense rationales by himself. Chad is 100% aware and approved the prior strategy. I do want to say, you think you're right.

Well, and this idea. I want to point out that there's more than just Chad being framed by by Lori and Alex. The strategy goes much further than that. The strategy is going to be not only was he framed by Lori and Alex, but that it was also staged and perhaps also framed, he was also framed by Rexburg Police. And I want to point that out and suggest that that is actually where Pryor is going and where I think Chad does approve of this,

and I have heard that perhaps that's where his kids are, too. How do it his kids surpass all the idea of this evidence that was displayed in Laurie's trial? It was planted. But, okay, right. He's brought up some things. He's brought up some things, John. Like, so, John, like, during, during, was it opening statements,

or was it a cross-exam with Ray Hermesio? it's all blurred into a day. Ray Hermaccio was explaining how they searched the townhome and found an awful Halloween mask. And John Pryor said, well, where was this been? It sounds like it was staged. So he's already sort of. But I mean, but again, like, let's go back to motive. Why would they?

Why would they frame him? Are they framing him because he's this world renowned author that they're so jealous of that they can't stand it, that he's living in their community? Are they framing him because Heather Daebbele's in their ear saying, you know, my, you know. Can I give one suggestion?

And this is completely my thought. This is me. This is not, this is not me hearing it from somewhere. This is me taking the idea of, of, wow, John Pryor is going to go into Chad Daybell

being framed by not just Lori and Alex, but by the Rexburg Police Department. And so I take that and I think, well, what's the motive going to be? What's the motive? Here's one thing that I thought of. Detective Hope is on the Rexberg Police Department. So Detective Hope is on the Rexberg Police Department. Detective Hope's son is married to Heather and Matt Daybell's daughter.

So I wonder if they're going to bring that. It's still not a motive, but I'm going to suspect that that is why Heather Daywell's been subpoenaed. This is completely me speculating. So again, I mean, it's a small town, number one. So those types of relationships are unavoidable in small towns. But putting that aside, putting that aside, what's the motive? So the motive's jealousy that Heather doesn't like chat? So Heather is apparently talking to family about framing him.

Is that like? So Heather doesn't like Chad. Right. Why? Is it jealousy? Is Heather jealous of his books? And then it becomes and then all of a sudden her daughter's father-in-law gets involved somehow because he's like, yeah, Heather's right.

No, I know it doesn't make any sense. And the more you expand those circles, those conspiratorial circles, by the way, the harder it gets to explain. Yeah. The more you have to see Lori and Alex working with Rexford Police, right? I mean, if the police had an issue with Lori, then why, then why did they essentially, testify at her trial of how guilty she was. It doesn't add up. If it was a conspiracy and she was in with the police, then I guess they had to turn on her, right? I don't know. It doesn't, it's, that's ultimately that's, that's, hopefully that's where the facts, that's where the evidence

leads us to the right conclusions or a jury to the right conclusions, right? That's, That's always the goal of the system. Right. The goal of the judicial system is to get reasonable human beings on a jury. And most juries get it right, by the way. Most juries are pretty astute. I mean, sometimes they don't. But you put 12 people together, 12 reasonable human beings together,

and they're quite capable oftentimes of coming up with really insightful conclusions. So that's why you have this trial. Yes. But I think Pryor is going to start tripping over himself if he wants to keep expanding that, the conspiratorial involvement of all these players. I think it's going to be more difficult. In some ways, if he wants to go down this path, I think his best argument is just to say Alex Cox did it, that Alex Cox was trying to help the lone wolf thing, because Alex Cox is deceased. and you could right i'm not saying it's a good argument but i mean if if you want to keep things simple

that would probably be the best way to go but i mean apparently he's he doesn't want to keep it simple so but that and that could be a problem that's probably gonna i'm sure we'll be talking about this in a few weeks um we so john and i are going to do our first ever patreon live we've been promising our patreon gems this weekend um an episode and John and I just finally decided to figure out how to do a Patreon live. I tested it before this. So we hope you guys all join us there for those that want to continue this conversation. But we've had our little guy come in here.

So we do need to conclude this. But for those that want to know about Patreon, you just join and then click the link. And that is that is. what you do on Patreon. So anyway. The last comment, by the way, about you can't ignore the fact that the bodies were found in Chad's backyard. That's true, but that's not definitive

proof. Right. Right. I think there's problems there. I mean, you have his cell phone placing him in the backyard after Tiley goes missing. And you have Tiley's body at the same place where Chad's cell phone is pinging. And you have the tax to Tammy that also indicate that something nefarious is going on that's not involved, that doesn't involve a raccoon. But ultimately, it might be a stretch, but ultimately you could argue that Alex and Lori put the bodies in Chad's backyard without him knowing. That just because they're in his backyard doesn't necessarily mean that he knows.

I mean, it seems obvious that clearly he knows something, but it's not a direct, it's not something you can prove, right? That's the problem. You can't, it's still circumstantial in a way because you can't, nobody saw him back there. I think that's where, right? That's where it becomes a little nerve-wracking. Anyway, again, for our Patreon members,

because this is such a tight weekend, we are so excited to go live with you, If anyone wants to continue this conversation with us, such an amazing group, head over to Patreon. The description to our live is in the description of this video or in chat. And so we'll keep talking over there. Thank you to those who do support us on Patreon and who do support us with YouTube memberships. We are so grateful and thank you to those who gift memberships here because we want everyone to be a hidden gem.

is so incredible. We are going to cover this trial beginning to end. And John is doing the best work I want you to know, babe, by being a full-time parent. And I love you. And it means so much to me and to banks and to our family, all that you're doing too, so that we can cover this important trial and see this through. Thank you. Well, you're, you're, you're doing the hard work by being up there. Yes. And then I do want to apologize. It does not make anyone a massage. to think that Lori might play a major part in this, but I will say it lacks looking at all of the evidence. Is that fair to say? Yeah, that did. When you said that, it seemed a little strong, but, but I mean, you have, you have strong feelings about it and opinions about it, and we've been

thinking about this for a long time. So I understood why you would say that, but. it just is hard for me to imagine like with all the evidence how someone could process that and you know that whole idea i mean really john priors i feel like the opening statement there was a lot of what we would call in this day and age slut shaming too you know just this idea that a sexual being would uh anyway we won't get into it yeah yeah he's he's definitely capitalizing on kind of a tried and true trope, a narrative about women

as seducers and femme fatals. And, you know, it's, it's very stereotypical. It's cliched. And that's not to say it doesn't happen. I just think it doesn't happen in these cases. It didn't happen in this case. It might happen in other cases, but it didn't happen here.

Yes. Yes. All right, everyone. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see our patron gems over on Patreon. We'll be right there. We'll just keep this going. All right. We'll see you guys.

Thanks for joining us tonight. I'll see you Monday. Bye-bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even, stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit markets. monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at Aura.com slash remove.

Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.