Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Interview with Julie Jackson, a once "follower" of Julie Rowe

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

Some consider Julie Rowe a spiritual healer and visionary, and during the Chad Daybell trial many have testified of her beliefs and influences on Chad Daybell. For Julie Jackson, Rowe is a cult leader. Julie Jackson reached out to to podcast host Lauren Matthias during Chad's trial and is ready to share her story. Join Hidden True Crime for an exclusive journey through Chad Daybell's trial, from its inception to its conclusion. Host Lauren Matthias, a seasoned courtroom observer, provides daily updates via lunch lives on YouTube and comprehensive summaries right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter with a decade of experience, and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a respected criminal psychologist, bring their expertise to Hidden True Crime. They have closely followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. In 2020, they launched their first season: 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological exploration of the doomsday murders and self-proclaimed prophet. A podcast that started at their dinner table has now become the dynamic husband-and-wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and she had a long way of doing that. And then I think they kind of both, and Chad and Lori, when I say both, kind of added their own ideas to that from there. Julie Roe was one of these people who went around the, in particular, like three particular states, and she preached about preparing the people. Would that be fair? Yes, that was the purpose of what her books were to prepare people for what was coming. Okay. And she spoke primarily to people of the LDS faith. Would you agree with that? I would agree with that. In fact, she would put on these conferences and her primary audience were people who shared that the LDS faith, correct?

Correct. So was she somehow looked down upon because she was doing this? By someone such as myself who didn't agree with her book, but there were quite a few people in Rexburg who were listening. And she was filling conference halls giving her speeches, was she not? She filled the tabernacle in Rexburg, yes. Okay. And then at some point, Chad met her and he helped publish one of her books. Do you recall that? My understanding from what he told me was that he reached out to her on a website called a Val.

Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about a vow? I never was on it. So from my understanding, it's just a website with like-minded people that have visions and dreams and they share those experiences, kind of a prepping type of site. And again, that a vow organization, the little I know about that is, again, catered to people of the LDS faith. Is that correct? From my understanding, I've not been on it, but from my understanding, mainly LDS people. Okay, so this idea of people who have visions and people who can make predictions about certain things, the organization's called a vow, right? The website's called a vow. And that they would, again, along with Julie Rowe and these people from a vow would cater predominantly to the people of the LDS faith.

I believe so. Okay. All right. Okay. Thank you. This is Julie. You guys met Julie yesterday. She's here again.

Did you follow Julie Rowe? Yes. I followed Julie Rowe. Did you believe in dark and light scales? Yes. I was introduced to that scale when Julie told me that I was a 4.2 light. which don't believe anymore. You guys should know that.

Okay. I reached out to Eric Smith, and I, you know, I've talked to him about this, about the skill, and I said, where did this come from? I wanted to know if he knew, because he was kind of in that first wave. As I was kind of coming in, he was kind of coming out, and I wanted to know, that's awfully close.

They can hear you. They can hear you. Okay, but I'll go like that. You're fine. I'll make you a little more cozy. It's fine. Here, hold on. Okay, there we go. Okay.

So, um, yes, from Eric Smith. We interviewed Eric. He's on our YouTube channel. Eric Smith, a friend of Chad Deibel and okay. He's a friend of mine. I did interview Julie yesterday. It's a recorded interview. This Julie, not Julie Roe.

This other Julie. Let's just reiterate so that they know, do you still believe in the dark and light scale? No, I do not. And you don't think it's good? No, I don't think I don't think it's good. I think it's done a lot of damage to sit there. And I think even trying to figure out who I wasn't a past probation, all of that that is very damaging. I've shelved a lot of things.

Just thought I should clear my throat, let you know I've already testified. Friars. That's right, Julie Jackson and Eric and Chad. I'm coming for you. And don't you forget it. I'm the apex predator. Crazy as fuck! My name's Julie Rowe.

Actually, it's Julie Barnett. I'd like to thank my enemies and frenemies, true friends and family, for breaking my heart and crushing me to pieces. I hope you meet your maker and spend a day in hell. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren Matthias, and I'm clearly with a guest. This is my travel studio, The Couch, but we set this up. I'm with Julie Jackson, and Julie, let me introduce to you because we're we are going to talk. Julie, who were you once a friend with? Julie Roe or Julie Barnett, same person. Same, same, same. She was Julie Roe, she got divorced, she got remarried, and now she's Julie Barnett.

Yes. Julie Roe has been brought up in the Chad Daybell case a couple of times now. And you knew Julie for years. How many years? Since 2014, I was introduced to her. And then it's I didn't get close to her until later, but 2014 I was introduced to her books and I went to her first. Very first. I think she had done one other like, what do you call it where I don't, where she goes and she speaks about her books and stuff. I don't know. Her conferences. Yeah, her conferences.

Like I think it might have been her second one. Okay. And Logan. That's where I first heard her. I did email her prior to that, but I didn't really become close to her until a little bit later. So. Okay. So, and I'm leaning over to get to the mic here, and then I'll give Julie some space to start talking.

But so it looks like we're, hey, super cozy. Yes. But, you know, I've interviewed one other person who has talked about their relationship with Julie. Orr that started out the same way. They emailed her, this is Girl on Fire. Girl on Fire has a really important interview that I recommend everybody watch. I met you last year with Lori Valet trial. Go ahead.

Yeah, where were you there? I mean, I still was in it. But I was kind of out of it. I was questioning some things. And I had shelved a lot. Yeah. And I had some concerns, especially with the Chad Dayball Laurie Valo trial and hearing some things. I had a lot of concerns.

And you told me today that you were brainwashed. Yes. I was definitely brainwashed. Julie might be recognized because there were a lot of TikToks that Julie Roe. Julie Roe is known for her TikToks. People know her TikToks. They share her TikToks. Ian, you were once a presence in her TikToks dancing.

the TikTok. She made the TikTok. I didn't get permission for that to be on TikTok, but like, you know. You made the TikTok. I made the TikTok dancing. That's how close you were to Julie. Yeah. She was over.

She visited my house many times. And I mean, just to just to share too, so why we're doing this interview, people always ask, I just want you to know this all over the world. People that follow this trial. How do people believe in Chad Daybell's beliefs? And how did that happen? And are there people still believing? and Chad Daybells believes.

And just so people know too, Chad Dayball and Julie Roe were very close. Girl on fire connects them to being very close. You didn't know Chad, but Julie Roe and Chad were very connected. It seems to me like Chad and Julie would both receive something right about the same time, like within a short period of time from each other. And they would call each other, call each other and then say, hey, what do you think about this? What do you know about this?

Oh, yeah. you know, I just had this and this and this is what I think, oh yeah, and, you know, they'd fill in the blanks and the other person would fill in the blanks that the other person didn't have and they would come to an agreement. That's what that means. right yes and i never met chad personally but i heard of chad and you consider this the same belief system julia and chad's belief system the same one of the same yes yes and i wouldn't just go peg it as chad's belief system either because there's a lot more people involved in that how this like came to fruition and yeah so why are you coming forward today why did you feel this interview was so important and reach out to me and say i'm ready well okay first of all when you did that interview with larry what was it a week ago or something and he became larry woodcock yes larry

very Woodcock, I met him at the Lori Vallow trial and I, you know, I gave him a hug and I just, my heart went out to him for everything that's that, but everyone who's been a part of this and been victims of and been apart, like, it's just my heart aches and breaks for them. And you did this interview with him and he got to a place of like, he said, I'm so tired of being diplomatic. And he's like, I just want to share how I feel. And I have felt this so many times at the bottom of my heart. I just want to like have a voice, speak up and say like, this isn't okay. And he said it in a way where he's like, and pardon my French, but he's like, this shit has to end. What in hell's name justifies anybody saying, let's pray that Charles, let's pray that Charles and JJ die. And not one person

stood up and said enough of this shit. Not one of them. Melanie, not one of them. A seven-year-old autistic child lost its life. And y'all going to sit around and make believe? I feel sorry for every damn one of you. And something rose up in me, and I wanted to do the interview. I wanted to do it last year,

but I was kind of going through some help things and stuff. But it was like it's time and I knew it. And Larry lit something in me. And I'm like, it's so time that like the shit ends and people start speaking and not being afraid, not being afraid of like, you know, the outcome of like, what is this person going to do or, or what if I say something that, you know, I should, just anything like that. Like, let's stop being afraid and let's just be real and be honest and just share our truth. And he, he did that for me. And so I immediately

texted you and was like, it's time. I got to do this. That was the first thing. Secondly, is even though I didn't know chat and I didn't know that, you know, Lori or any part of that, I came in kind of later into the thing. I mean, people have said this. I don't know if this is true, but like she kind of made men kind of the center part at the beginning and women weren't really allowed in the inner like in the inner circle in the inner circle that's true a girl on fire said as much yeah yeah and and i've had multiple confirmations of that as i've talked to other people so i was more of like she would text me occasionally at the beginning or things like that but i wasn't in the inner circle so i didn't i never went to a preparing a people conference or anything like that um

But I still feel somewhat responsible for contributing in some way to validating Julie. And I think when you validate, honestly, I think she's a cult leader. And I'm there now. And when you validate a co-leader, what you're doing is you're giving that energy to that person where they become more grandiose. They become more their ego and all of that. And all of us doing that for her and me being like, I have this experience. and I know that you're who you are because I felt this and trying to understand the difference of like, is the spirit telling me this?

Or that, you know, I've had to go through all of this. I mean, I am de-brainwashing. I am deprogramming. And so I felt kind of responsible in some way. Like I don't feel like I did any of this, but like I added to it. So I was like, I have to wrong the right. And I have to help other people see how easy it was. I don't feel like I'm somebody that's like.

stupid or i mean i don't want to say stupid but you know what i mean like i'm not somebody that's easily i mean obviously i guess i was easily influenced in this situation but i think it was kind of like a road that was like a little here a little there a little there all of a sudden you're all in and you're like how did i get from here to here and then you're like whoa kind of a thing does that make sense yes so for me it's like i have to come out and i have to share my story and if i can help anybody else see like how easy it was and how normal it was and how like even just like how I was raised in the LBS church like there's so many similarities it's almost like I was conditioned to just be like and I didn't even realize I was kind of going from one and I mean I hate to say cold but that's how I

feel right now is like religion in this way can be very cultish and the LBS church in the way that I was conditioned and I was you know to just believe these people and don't question them and they're going to tell you the truth and listen to their spiritual experiences and they're claiming that god told them and and they're you know they feel like they're speaking from the heart and i'm a very trusting person i try to see the good in people yes you know i told you this last um last year during the lory valet trial you talked a lot about that i talked about that because audrey's testimony literally hit me here so hard because i thought she was so real so authentic so sharing like you know i just i'm a kind person i wanted to help her

people call me naive, but she, you know, I think it's more of like she's open-minded. She's, you know, she's- Audrey Barrettario. Yeah. A witness at Lori Vallo-Devall's trial. Yeah. You were there that day. She testified and she dropped a bomb about Lori threatening her. And a lot of people didn't believe Audrey, but you did.

I did. 100%, not even a doubt in my mind because I felt that I could relate to her in so many ways. I have felt very manipulated in my life. I have felt very used. I've had people tell me in my life, like, nobody respects you because you're just too nice. And so nobody respects you. So when she said that, it like, it triggered something to me where I got really emotional because I'm like, I get you.

And it opened up my eyes to see like, am I being manipulated? Am I being used? And I went home and I had to process. And I'm like, started going through all of this. And the minute I reached out to her to question and be like, hey, are you using me? To Julie. To Julie. And that goes back.

I mean, that's like a whole other story that we can get into. But like her response back to me was how dare you? I'm like, how dare you question her? How dare you question her? How dare I question her motives? How dare I question like if she was using me and I can go into that later on how. And and then it was just so the way she responded. I was like, oh my gosh.

She totally has been. And I am not her friend. And she doesn't care about. me at all she's threatened you and she's so she's threatened me she's threatened me in my family yeah it goes there's so much there's so much and you know the biggest thing is it's like i cared for her so deeply i cared about her well-being i cared about her trauma that she's been through and i wanted to be a loving support and a friend and and help in any way i could in a cause that she lied about like there is no cause Where's the cause?

Like, I don't see it. I know where is the cause? Where's the cause? What is her cause? What is it? Soul trafficking. She's brought up soul trafficking. I don't know what the cause is.

And I thought I was part of something bigger than myself. And I just wanted to help. And I know that Audrey just wanted to. There's so many of us that got into this. I know a lot of people that follow her. And I know their hearts. They have good hearts. But they are.

And I hate to like judge them in this way. It's because it's kind of where I'm not like judging. It's like my, my observation. Yeah. But she prays on certain types of people. And there are similarities and patterns and like the types of people. I look at my brother who is like, nobody could say a bad thing about him.

The kindness heart, just the best heart. She prayed on him like I couldn't. She used him like I can't even tell you. And it's like I'm watching this pattern. And I didn't think I was somebody that could be easily used or something like. I feel like I'm a pretty strong personality and I'm pretty like, no, that's not acceptable. But seeing this, I'm like, I was. I was just like one of them that she prayed on.

And I can see that. And I could see the same patterns with the Lori. And I can see the same patterns and that trial with some of these people. Not all of them. There were some people that I feel like are similar versions of Lori and Chad in some way. I see some differences there. And like those that were like more of the I want to help. Those who were like, I believe you.

I believe your story. And then there's some that were like, I want to be grandiose like you. I think there's a difference. anything that I saw both in the followers of Julie. And I'm seeing both with Chad and Lori. And there's like, and that's the thing that's like why I'm coming out here too is like, there's some of us that we're like, we have, we're good people, you know. And I feel like we get so like, oh, you followed her.

Oh, you were duped and oh, you're naive and you're. And it's like, I don't think that's always the case. And some of us just really want to learn and we really want to grow. We really want to be better people, you know? Yeah. In any way we can. And I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything, but like, I mean, I'm admitting I was duped. I believed it. I was in. I, it messed with my family. I mean, she has really. Your family was divided. My family was divided. There's a whole story there. I mean, I don't know how far we go into it all, but she has broken up so many families. She's broken up.

I mean, I think so many of the women that follow her now, they're like either all teetering on divorced, being divorced or divorced. And do you know what she told me? What? She said after I, I was struggling in my marriage and there was like a separation there and there was things. And she goes, you had to do it first before I could like before I had permission that I could go do it. I'm like, what is that? Like what? I have so many questions because I think many people are also thinking of Jody Hildebrandt who recently. Oh, all this is connected. All of this. You can see all the patterns and of this. It's all connected. And honestly, a lot of this also stems from religion and how you're raised because we're so susceptible. We're so easy. We're a second to target. Like, take that person

and like, I've probably had to target all my back. When we spoke last year again, you were still teetering, but you were still defending Julie Rowe in in ways. And when I interviewed Eric Smith, I gosh, it has been three years now. He was, he was still standing by. Julie Rowe then? Are you saying that he sort of, and I know you don't want to speak for him, but is he still a believer in Julie Rowe? No. No. I could, I could like confidently say that Eric Smith is not a believer. I mean, like I said, I don't want to speak for him. But if it was, so let's say for me, I don't want to get on here and like ruin Julie's life. I don't want to bash her. I don't want to destroy her. I don't want any ill wheel towards her. It's not about Julie at all.

This isn't about Julie. And that's the same with Eric. And that's the same with so many of of us. In fact, Eric told me, he goes, Julie, there is like 20 other people I could tell you that have our same story, but there's just such good people and goodhearted people that they, they don't know how to go forward. They don't know how to be, because they're not going to go try to destroy her. They don't know how to share their story in a way that's like, it's not about me. It's not about me trying to get attention. It's not about like me trying to ruin her. And he's like, there's like, there's like, 20 of us. I don't even know these people, but he's like, I can give you 20 names right now. And I feel like, you know, it's time that we maybe start talking.

Hey, everyone, we're back. We took a little break to discuss. But I guess before we get into your story, I think I just really want to understand where this belief system stems from, zombies, breaking up families, children being called evil, the light and dark scale. We're seeing this again and again. Ruby, Frankie, and Jody Hildebrandt, that's very similar. were in the trial, Chad Debo.

You said that you were a believer in a lot of these things, not everything, a lot of them, and we're going to get into that. But whose belief system is this? Is this Chad Debel's belief system? Is this Julie Rose belief system? Is it Jody Hildebrand's belief system? Is it Jody Hildebrandt's belief system? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Honestly, this is my opinion. And I think that there's so many people involved in creating. these belief systems. I mean, you start with a vow. You start with visions of glory. All of these things contributed to these belief systems. You've got LDS Freedom Forum. You get on those things. You go down rabbit holes. I talked to Eric Smith about this and I asked him this question because I wanted to know too since I wasn't kind of at the beginning. I heard it from Julie Rose. So if you asked me like whose belief system this was, I would be like, it's Julie Rose's system. And that's because she's one who taught it to me. But is that where she got it from? You know,

So I actually asked Eric Smith this question, and he shared a response with me that I feel that would be really good to share because I think it sheds light on it's so much of a bigger picture than we're understanding. So I'm just going to read this text that he sent to me. He said, hey, Julie, I know about that number system and how it came about. There was a discussion thread on LDS Freedom Forum on multiple probation back in about 2016. Quite a while ago. It's what first introduced me to the subject. They had an interesting number system that resonated with me as having some merit. A couple years later, after I introduced multiple probations to Chad and Jason, never met Chad, never met Jason. I don't know who Jason is, but you said you do, right? We refined that number system more. Julie was not involved in unfolding the beliefs or doctrines or numbers. She took what we gave her and made her own connections about her own lives. Somewhere along the way, Chad, and Julie became the owners of it all. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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So you believe in the decimal point system and everything? Yes. I have to own that, but I didn't believe it to where they took it, if that makes sense. So what is the decimal point system of light? dark okay so what the way i understood it is like Julie told me I was a 4.2 light okay so as I asked more questions like what does that mean it was I've been down here four times but I think the first one was me like in premortal down here meaning down here I've come to earth four different times and multiple mortal probation multiple morprivations and she told me one of mine and this is

interesting because this is where Chad comes into play I never met him but she came She told me once. I said, well, what are 4.2? Do you know? You know, because I was in? And I was like, do you know maybe who I was in another probation? And she goes, well, let me ask. I'll come back.

And she called me back. And she said, she was Anne Frank in the Holocaust. And I was Margot Frank, her sister. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And then she said, but I need to confirm it. And I can't remember if it was she confirmed it then.

Or she said, I did confirm it. And then she called me. I can't remember. But she said she had to call Chad to. confirm it. And she said, and I said how, why Chad? I didn't know Chad and I didn't understand that. And she said, because Chad has access to the Akashik records. And I think I'm saying that right. And that he can confirm those things. And he can kind of, he knows what people, you know, what their probations were. Okay. What their probations were. Excuse me for interrupting. Yes. This was probably

2019 is what I'm thinking. I think it was before. It was before COVID. Yeah, it was a year of of the murders. Yeah. Yes, it was the year of the murders. I'm trying to remember what the point two meant. A point two. Because that was a 4.2.

And I think it was where I'm at in this probation in the level. Like there was 4.1. So I've like, I've gone further. So I'm getting closer to that five. And something I should mention is she said she was a six. And that like, I think a seven was like. Godly.

Yeah. Well, but she was, she did kind of, you know, she was a God, basically. basically. So yeah. Okay. I mean, she's Mary Magdalene. She was all these different people. Okay. And Frank, Mary Magdalene. She was a lot of people. Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc. Salem Witch Trials. She was someone in that one. I mean, there's so many. I can't like she was Rachel with in the Bible story. I believe it was Rachel. So many people wanted to know. Who was? Who was I in another probation?

I mean, this has been a big thing. People trying to figure out. She does classes where you pay her to try to figure it out and go down this like, who was I? And she was doing this class and she dresses in these different outfits. And can you see my energy? Can you see me in this time period? Can you see that I was there? And all of a sudden, this thought came to me.

And it was like, why the hell does it matter? If I start focusing so much and I saw some of these people who did that where they were like, I was a bad person in this one probation and I need to own that. And she would say this to us. Like she would say things to us. Like you need to see if like, were you somebody that was maybe dark and it has probation? And you need to like own that and realize that, you know, you possibly were. And I'm like, what good comes from that?

If I start dwelling on that, I started dwelling on the fact that I could have been in the Holocaust. I mean, that's some crazy stuff to go down that road. And I went there. I was like, oh my gosh. Like I was in the Holocaust. It messed with my head. And so why doing that and going to those places? It didn't benefit me in any way.

So I'm like what we should, whether multiple probation is true or not. We need to focus on the here and now who am I today? Am I a good person here today in this life? That's what matters. And so I just thought that it caused so much almost like people wanted to just be like, well, I think I think I was so and so. And they'd come and tell Julie, like, I think I was. And she'd be like, no.

You know? And then she'd come tell me that these people thought that they were so and so. And this is one other thing I kind of had a hard time with. And I'm not going to say that I didn't, like, contribute in any of this. But like, we'd go to lunch or something. And she'd start saying the meanest things are like trashing some of these people that are part of her thing. And I would be like, well, yeah, like that was kind of weird or, you know, like, I'm not saying that I'm innocent in all of it, but it just was like, what is she saying about me?

This feels so wrong. Like, why are we sitting there, these people that are donating money to you and giving everything that they have? And you're over here like, oh, they're dark. And I'm just giving them another chance. You've got to give everybody every opportunity to like become light. And that to me felt so wrong. And that's a huge part of also why I'm doing this because a lot of these people that are still

following her, she said a lot of bad things about them, a lot of them. and she said them to me in confidence, but I think that that should come out. Like, I just don't think that's right. When you're in there, it's all about like not judging and let's be, you know, like we're welcoming to everybody. And these are the kind of things she's trying to teach. I mean, she gets on TikTok and she says she's clearing energy on people judging her and all of these things.

She doesn't practice what she preaches. It's almost like because she has kind of a God complex. It's like this, well, this doesn't apply to me, which is also kind of weird. But there was this person that I reached out to. or reached out and she, I reached out to her and she said she was willing to hear my story. And it's because I care so much about her and she has such a good heart, good person. And I was telling her that, you know, I didn't want to go into details about things that Julia had said, but I was like, you should know that she said some things about you.

And she goes, that's interesting because she said a lot of things to me about other people too. And I just assumed maybe the same as you did that she wasn't saying. She's just opening up in confidence because she's somebody that she could talk, I could talk or she could talk to. and go there and feel like she could let her guard down. And it was a safe place. But now I'm realizing that's just what she does to all of us. And so that was kind of like eye opening to her, as eye opening to me because I kind of felt the same way.

I'm like, okay, she's just venting. It's a safe place. She feels safe with me. She doesn't really mean all those things. We all feel that way sometimes, right? Where we just feel like we need to vent. But if she's saying this to all these people, the same things.

I'm like, obviously she was saying it about me too. And I mean, you know, I'm going to say this right now. Maybe she should come later in the story. but she literally came to my house once. I used to do her hair for free all the time. And she said to me one time, she goes, you know, the other side told me that you're an apex predator sitting here to destroy me. Yeah.

And I was like, no, not. Like what? And she goes, no, no, no, I don't believe it. They mess with me sometimes to try to tell me these things to get me to, like, ruin these relationships or whatever. And I don't believe it. But I knew in that moment when she said it that she did believe it in some way and thought. And then moving forward, now I think she's probably telling everybody I was right.

I was told that she was an apex predator sent here to destroy me. And that was such manipulation. That messed with my head. Because every time I have a thought come in that was like, like, this feels off. And I don't know if I can support this anymore. That would come to my head and be like, wait, but that means I'm an apex predator sent her to destroy her. So I got to push that thought out because I'm not an apex predator.

Do you see how it was so manipulating? It mind effed me. so much. And then when those thoughts would come in, I think I'm a bad person for thinking those things. Because is that like if I had a thought that questioned her, her motives, her, anything that made me. And I had a lot of thoughts come in. But I was dismissing them. I wasn't listening to them.

And I would justify them away every time. And that is something that I could tell you that is a pattern with all these people. Yeah. There's so many. us that could tell you the exact same story. We all justified it away. So, well, look, and I'm just going to lean over. We're just going to do this. This is a travel set up. So I lean over and I lean over. We're making adjustments. We're making it work. What does Tim Gunn always say? Make it work. Make it work. We're making a travel set work.

So I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Like, yes, I understand, but from outsiders looking in, let's be really honest. Okay. People that don't know you, Julie Roe that weren't in her circle. Yeah. That are introduced to Julie Roe through TikToks. Yeah. In her car or with AI where she's doing funny hand movements. Yeah.

And where she's talking about how great she is and when she's doing a lot of selfies. Yeah. And people are giggling, you know, thinking, how could anyone fall for this? Yeah. I'm just. And maybe you can take us there. I'm going to take you there. Okay.

Because I am hearing you out. And I genuinely want to understand. but on, so I'm telling you from another place. Yeah. Like, let me tell you where I was introduced to Julie Rowe. And I told the same story to Eric Smith. Yeah. I'd never even heard of Julie Rowe until this story of Chad Dayball and Lori Vow hit the media in December of 2019.

It hit the AP wire. I was on it. I had the news. I had the news on my phone. I was 2019. So that's four, yeah, four years later after. she kind of first came out. Yeah, five years, five years.

I don't even know. Five years. So I didn't know who she was. Yeah. I didn't know who Chad Daybell was. Didn't know who Lori Ball were. Saw him in the news. It caught my attention.

I thought, this is really bad. I even remember it was Christmas of 2019 because my dad was in town. And then up popped this video with Julie Roe and Eric Smith. And Julie is saying that she knows that Chad Daybell is innocent because she had always known that Tammy was going to die. That the first time that the spirit, the angels on the Osteriskvale, let me know that Tammy was going to pass away was in July of 2015. And I did not know how she was going to pass away.

I could just see into the future and I could see something coming. I see stuff like that all the time with people. It's not an uncommon thing for me. That was. Yeah. Yeah. It was rough. Yeah. I couldn't believe it.

But I believed her when she came out and said, oh, I believed. I'll take you there. And I'm sure I'm going to have a lot of people that don't believe me or think that, you know, she's so naive. I don't know, whatever. It's fine. And we have switched this travel set so many times, everybody. I'm going to leave back so that you can see Julie. And I'll just, like, jump forward to talk in our shared mic with. Okay. Okay.

Let's take you on this journey. It's so hard to know where to start because, you know, my brother and, I have said this multiple times. If anyone was to jump in on Julie right now, I don't think, I think it would be really hard for anyone to do it. It would be hard for me. I would be like, are you insane? But I knew Julie at the very beginning in 2014. And if you even just go back and look at the difference in the energy from 2014, I feel like there's a really big difference from that to the TikToks. People have said that. Yeah. People have said that. Yeah. So, And I think the church is like this too, by the way.

They talk about line upon line, line. And I feel like my story is line upon line. And she wasn't talking about 4.2 darks when I first met her. She wasn't talking like this. She was talking about a near-dove experience that she had nine years ago. And the Lord commanded her to come out and talk about it. So let's rewind. I was introduced to Visions of Glory, the book, by I think my mother-in-law, read the book.

And it really just was like, what? It was heavy. I'm like. What year? That had to be probably 2013 or 12, one or two years before Julie. So that was my start. And I don't know exactly the year, but I was living in D.C. at the time. And D.C. was rough on me.

I was a workaholic and I was probably seeking something, anything, right? You're just kind of in this place of like, I'm distracted. Life doesn't feel joyful. My motivations don't feel right. I'm working a lot. And I was seeking something. So I read visions of glory and it just was like, wow, like this is, this is mind blowing. This, it felt so just like truth to me.

It really did at that time. What part of the apocalypse? All of it. I didn't have a problem with any of it. And a lot of people have some problems. I was just like all in on this book. So fast forward to, I moved from D.C. And I moved to Utah, back to Utah.

I'm from Utah. DC was rough on me. It was a rough decade of like just work, work, work a lot. And I had my third son and my third child. I had three miscarriages between my second and my third child. I had postpartum depression. My husband didn't have a job yet. So he stayed back in DC and I moved to, I'm going to get emotional.

I moved to Utah and I felt very lost. I was very lost and I was seeking anything. And I was, you know, I wanted my husband there, but he couldn't find work. And it was just heavy. So I decided to go down this path of like, who am I? Who am I to God? What do I believe? So I cut out social media.

I cut out movies, television. I deleted my Instagram account. And I just started seeking because I wanted to know who I was to God. And the LD's church was just not enough for me. It just going through the emotions wasn't enough. I needed more. And so I started. I remember there was one night where I was severely depressed and I wanted to take my life.

And I called my sister-in-law and I was like, I'm scared. And she said, you just need to go to sleep. I take a sleeping pillar or something and you go to sleep. I sent my kids, my baby to my sister to be watched. And I was alone in my house. I was severely just depressed. That night, I had a dream. And in that dream, I was, I got to feel God's love for me in a way.

And this is very personal to me. I'm being very vulnerable right now. But I feel like I need to be. Honestly, like people need to just share these things. And I'm not trying to like, I'm not playing this like, I don't know, I think about Audrey on the stand and how people treated her when she became so vulnerable. But I'm just, whatever. People can think what they want.

So I had a dream about God's love for me. and it was the most, I can't explain the feeling. It was something that I woke up and I cried forever because I'm like, I couldn't even put it into words what that felt like, hey, and that did something to me. That was like I felt that he knew me and I was loved by him. And that sent me down a road of I want to feel more of this. Like I want to feel this joy.

I want to feel this love. What does that look like? And from there, I was introduced to Julie Rose book. I was having dreams. I'm putting it out there. I was having very vivid dreams about things. That kind of just ignited something. I don't know if it's, I was so not distracted because I wasn't, you know, into all, you know,

the distractions of life. I don't, I don't know. I don't understand completely. And I'm not claiming to. So I started having dreams. Well, and I want to say to just jump over. Hi, everyone. That the visions of glory book does refer to dreams as being real and vision.

So it validates those vivid dreams, the visions of glory. Because that's fair to say. Yes, but I'm trying to understand what your intention in saying that is. Oh, yeah. I guess I wanted to clarify. Like you say, yes, I was having very vivid dreams for those that have that are atheists that are watching. Yeah.

Don't understand what that means. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. I just want people to understand that that dreams are a valid. Okay. Vivid dreams are a very valid thing. Thank you for clarifying that.

Okay. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. But because I know some people, they hear that and they're like, oh, no, another Julie Roe or something, you know what I mean? Or another person that's claiming to have visions and dreams. Yeah. I felt that those dreams helped me get through some really difficult times.

And I felt like I was, I felt very close to God during those times. And I felt led. So then I'm introduced to Julie Rose book and I'm reading it. And I'm reading in it things that are similar to things that I saw in my dreams. of things that are going to happen. Why wouldn't I connect to that? I'm having this experience. I'm reading somebody else is having this experience. Why wouldn't I be like, oh my gosh, you know, that was my first thing. So I was like, I have to hear this. I heard she was going to speak. I was like, I have to hear her speak. So I went to Logan, I think it was like maybe her

second speaking event and I was in the audience and listening to her and I was really intently like I was looking at her and I was like I needed I needed to be fed during that time and she was feeding me. So after the event I went she had a book signing and I was in line and I went up to her and I just was like can I give you a hug? Thank you for what you shared. It makes me feel like I'm not the only one experiencing these things. And she said I need to give you my phone number. We need to talk. So she gave me her phone and I texted her. We had a conversation and she said to me, you know, the veil's very thin for me. And the other side told me that we knew each other in premortal and that we were friends and that we are supposed to be friends. Like you're somebody

that in my near to the experience is that I would meet people that I would remember and recognize. And you're one of them. Which now I can look back and see like hook, line and sinker. And I was so easily because I was seeking. I was so susceptible to. I was like, you tell me that. It's like, here's the next step. Like, that feels right to me. You know, like, yay. So that was our first initial, like, yes.

But it didn't really grow into anything too much more for probably a few years because she was in this other world of Chad Daybell and Eric Smith. And those were her people during that time. I would text her occasionally. She would respond. I was going through some things, some difficult things that she was there for me during that like sometimes she texts and just and she was very kind and she was there for me she really was and somebody I could talk to and a support through some really difficult things my husband was living

in DC I was kind of alone I had depression postpartum depression so I'm grateful to her for all of that because she was a friend to me through it and she was going through some hard things and we could connect in that way as women we connect hard to heart like and I felt her heart and all of that so fast forward to her going through the divorce with her husband. She moves to Utah. That's when we really started to become closer. She kind of needed a friend. And I'm not going to lie, like I needed somebody that understood me in some way because I didn't feel very understood in what I was experiencing. So she would come to my house. I would do her hair. She slipped over sometimes just because it was like, you know, more just like we're talking. And yeah. So there was.

There was a lot of connection there. I was going to all of her energy classes, her Zoom calls and things like that. So let's fast forward. We're good friends. But there was like sometimes she would say things in class or something where I was like, shelving that one. Don't understand that's a little weird. That's a little off.

Shelping it. But because we had developed this like friendship, this like connection, I like trusted her like, okay, I don't understand it now. But she does and that's her, you know. So fast forward to I was working a lot in what I do in my in my career and it was a lot for me. I was working with BYU and doing some things there. And it was like after COVID and stuff, it was just a lot for me. I needed to just recenter and stuff.

So I started working. I was pulled into my family business. My family like my siblings, my mom and stuff, my sister started it during COVID a business. And they said, we need your help. Can you come in? So I was like, yeah, can do that. This is good for me because now I can, like, cut back on the other stuff. I can be home more with my family and all of these things.

So I was going to lunch with Julie. And I was talking about these things. I would talk about like, this is so great. The business is doing well. I can be home more. Well, all of a sudden, she reaches out to my brother, who was also in. And he was doing her music and things like that for her events and stuff like that. Okay.

So he, she reached out to him and said, the Lord told me that, well, she's like, I'm building a safe house and I'm doing these things with Gia to hurry up, but I need some more funds coming in. And the Lord told me to contact you that you would know how I can get more of that, like for the foundation and all of that. And my brother is such a good person, so kind hard. He's like, yeah, like this thing we're doing is working really well. let me talk to my family. Let's see if we can get you kind of like your own one started and and working in this business and it can maybe help. And so we reached out to our family and it was kind of like half of them were like, no. And then there was a half of us like, we want to help. We want to help the foundation. We want to help deteriorate. We want to help safe houses. We want

to help human trafficking because she would talk about this stuff all the time. So we're like, yes, we want to be a part of this. The other family didn't. We decided to split from them, which caused a huge divide in our family. She also told us she would repeatedly say, things like if you don't break contracts here in this probation, if you don't set boundaries with your family, you're going to have to do this again with them. So like things that we had with the family, it was like this brainwashing, this manipulation of saying these things, that if you continue in this probation, what you're doing, you're going to have to do it all over again just like this, basically. So what she had done with her family is she had set major

boundaries. She wasn't talking to them. She, you know, wasn't going to family events because she's like, I'm breaking those contracts so that like, we're not going to have to do this again. So I was like, well, I don't want to have to like, I want to break contracts. Like I don't want to, you know, keep reliving these things. So in my mind, when we separated, it was like setting this boundary is going to help all of us because of what she would say. So we split and with the business, she gave us guidelines of like what it would look like. It wasn't that. she was going to start this business. It was more of like, I need money for my foundation.

How can I get it? So when we separated, we thought she was going to kind of like do this with us in some way, but it ended up being not that. It was just give me money. And there wasn't any, like she would talk about there was an energy exchange where she was doing energy work on the business. So it would be successful. And we'd be like, well, we would have calls with her where we say,

we need to understand what that means in this realm. you say you're doing stuff on some other level in these other dimensions or whatever. We can't see it. And it's, we don't know what you're doing. And it's very confusing to us. So can you, like, help us see that? And she'd almost like make you feel so, like, you don't, how dare you? Like, I am doing so much work on this and you can't even see it or feel it.

Or the only reason you're successful is because of me. And then you'd be like, oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. Thank you for all the time you put into this. And she said she did energy work on us. the time. So in return for us donating that money, she was doing energy work on us like to help us like, you know, with our healing stuff. Like if we have health issues and all this stuff, she's just constantly doing this for us. And so you're just kind of like, I mean, there was so much gas lighting. There was so much manipulation and you just, she's very intimidating. She's very

intense. And there's so many times that I'd be at lunch with her and I'd be in tears at lunch because she was so harsh with me and she'd be like, I've told you this and you need to listen to me and because she was having a bad day and she was projecting it onto me and I would literally be in tears and I would be like oh my gosh I was so harsh you know so many things like that and um I know I sound like how the heck was I in this I get it I get it oh good okay I hope so yeah I know okay okay so um let's see where are we at with the business stuff so we're working with the business so she comes to us and sounds so it's so crazy to me And I look at it and I'm like, gosh, Julie, like, hello Mcfly.

So she comes and she's like, you need to, what's the percentage is going to be? What are you going to be like donating to the cause or whatever? And we're like, well, we just thought we would be giving this amount. And she's like, that's not what the Lord told me. So she said, go back and I want you to pray and ask the Lord what it should be. So we go back and we're like, oh, we're not like hearing right. like we're you know we come back with a different number and she's like no that's not right go back again so finally we're like okay we don't know we come back and we're like listen why do you just

tell us what the lord told you that the numbers should be and she goes and she she said i'm going to get percentages here this is going to be mind-blowing to people but this is legit 100% the truth 60, 40. She wanted 60% of whatever we were making, and we were supposed to split 40% between three of us. We were getting like 12%. From our family business. That was our livelihood. Our livelihood.

And this was a donation to her foundation. She said she needed it to finish her house, which was going to be a safe house, which is like, I don't know. I haven't been there, but I hear it's like 10,000 square feet. Yes. Whoa. Yeah. And so we didn't feel right about it, but she's so good at like telling you like, you got it wrong.

And like this is what I was. And I don't know. Like I look at it now, like how could I even hear that and be okay with that? But back then it was like, you know what? You know, like I just, I trusted that we were going to be super successful. And do you know what? She told she would give us the number and she'd say, this is how much you're going to be making every month if you do these percentages.

Wow. Did you know we never hit that number until the very first month we stopped donating to her? We surpass that number. And her hearing that is going to make her probably really upset because she wanted that money. But, man, I'm being very candid here. As you should be. Yeah. It feels straight.

She took advantage of your family. You should be very candid. Oh, my gosh. More people should be coming forward. She took so much advantage of my family. She called all that family that we split with. She called them all dark. of all. So I didn't speak to them. My family for a year. Do you know how emotionally like hard

this was on my entire? My sister, every time I bring it up, like she will start crying immediately because I mean, my kids who didn't play with their cousins, like it ruined like over a year, this, this is this is what happened. Okay, but in my head. So my sister and brother and me, we'd set that boundary. We were we were like, we're going to help her. And I, okay, I should preface because there's a bunch of people that follow her that contributed their like some things into the business. Julie wanted to trade energy work for them in like in like them kind of just like contributing some stuff like in that way.

That goes into like numbers and things that I feel I don't like I don't feel comfortable talking about like all those things. But but the amount that they that they gave to the amount that we gave. Oops, sorry. It's just like there's no comparison. And like, do you know what that means? Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet.

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we're going to start over from scratch. So we gave up some significant amount of money to start over. We sacrificed to help build this cause and didn't get paychecks. And then we took the money, whatever we had already made from there. We reinvested to restart it. And she told us in the beginning that she was going to up front that money to get it started again. Because, you know, she was the one that was like wanting us to like, wanting to learn and wanting to like for her foundation. She gave, I think, $100.

We gave like $100,000 just to restart this up. I'm putting out numbers and yeah. So but she's, yeah, the numbers helps. But she's claiming to everybody and everything. And on TikTok and everywhere, this was her business. She owned seven businesses that she was the one that up fronted all of the money, got it started.

And I don't know if she really believes that and it's something in her head. But it's not true. What if I told me that I made a million bucks last? And we tried to tell her this, but like, you can't even. Like, we tried and it's like, it's some disc, like, I don't know if it's a mental thing or if it's like, like, I'm not trying to say, like, I don't understand where she's coming with that. Like, does she really believe that she didn't? She doesn't remember? Or is it that like she's lying?

I don't know, honestly, but it's very strange to me that she doesn't understand. on that or know that. But that's how much she wasn't even a part of this. She wouldn't even know that we gave that much money up front because she had nothing to do with it. She said, we're going to do monthly calls to talk. We did everything hours upon hours. And we were making 12%. This is taking away for my family. I mean, this was hard in my marriage because my husband is like, you're giving her so much money. You're putting on all this effort. Like, where's, you know, and this, I'm not working as much doing my other job because now I'm doing this, which is supposed to be my contribution to the family income. But to her, it's just like,

Well, I need to get all of this for the donation. And I don't care about your family dynamic or what you're going through in your family. Like, she didn't care. My brother is single, not married, but this was his whole livelihood. That's all he made. Like, I had at least my husband working. This was my brother's entire. And did you know, she would reach out to him and be like, I'm short this month with paying like one of the like the plumber or something.

I don't know what I'm going to do. And he would go and get part of his paycheck and donate even more. Yes, way. Even though he was only making 12. Yes. Then he'd go donate his paycheck to her. I wouldn't point blank ask him. It was just more like a manipulation, I think, to get him to, because he's so kind that

he would just be like, I can, and he would just send her more money. Sorry. He would just send her more in the small percentage that he got. Now, those percentages weren't the whole time. I want to be like upfront about that. Because after, I don't, it was maybe like six to eight months. it didn't feel like she was really contributing anything at all, really, in that way. Again, there was the people she was trading energy work with.

So GTRS stands for the Greater Tomorrow Relief Fund, and it is her nonprofit organization that she has a 501c3 and has a lot of people donating to it that for future events that are going to come where she says she has safe houses, she's going to be feeding people, clothing people, all of those things. I mean, if it's in the future, can you still write? I have questions. I have questions and concerns.

All I've seen is that she spent on her house and her toys. And I mean, I don't know. I used to justify it away like, okay, well, a razor is going to be rescuing people. Do you know how any justifying I did just to make myself like, be like, she's telling the truth. She's telling the truth. This is real. This is a foundation. This is going to, and then you get to a point where you're like,

okay now I'm just being like I'm just stupid like I can't just buy this away anymore like and then once you really see it you're like you can't unsee it my brother was donating extra so we would send her every month a donation we would go do a wire transfer and it would always say gtrf donation on it so she wasn't it was our business was our thing and we were donating to the cause is what we thought we were doing until you fast forward to she started getting on tic talk a lot right And I started watching these TikToks and she was posting things in these like, Razors, can amps. I don't know what you call them.

And there would be like multiple of them. And she'd be showing parts of her house and things like that. And then my sister brought to me this donation list that this is. So people who are coming to her events, like coming to her home and doing a tour or something like that, she would have these things where it was just donate something on the list and then come to my house. And it was kind of an event she would do. I wasn't a part of that.

I was kind of like out then. I started, like I said, it was kind of a slow process in. It was kind of a slow process out until it was out like that. So I'm looking at this donation list and it was like, I need this 600. I don't know the thread count, but thread count sheets in this color. And yeah, it was very specific. It was like this kind of chapstick in this color or this. It was very like, okay, if this is for people that are human traffic or,

safe houses do you think they really care that through a canvas sheet or what color it is they really care about their chapstick and so it looked more like a wedding registry it did it definitely did and that was another concern so there's all these red flags and concerns and then i saw her tic talks and i went to the lorry valo trial and i heard this you know being used these people being used and like i and and audrey's testimony and stuff and i'm processing so i sent her a text and i said hey i have some concern where is this money that we're donating to the cause going to your GTRF foundation like where is it going towards i have to just say i have some concerns that's exactly what Melanie gives says on the recording with Lori Valo i have some concern oh yeah that's right and honestly i think that's kind of what happened

with eric smith i think he went to julia and said i have some concerns because he was managing her money and she didn't see it going towards anything either and so he's like i have some concerns and she did the exact same thing. There is, look at this pattern here. The second you question her, you are out. And it's all of a sudden like, I knew you were going to betray me. And they told me you were going to betray me. The other side told me you were going to betray me.

And, you know, at the very beginning of us bringing her on, she's like, the other side told me that like you guys are going to eventually just like not donate anymore or something like that. It's like she sets it up in this way where then if you do it, she was right. It's very, very manipulating. So I text her and I say, I have these concerns. I said, are you using us and where is this money going? Her response to me was, how dare you?

Not just how dare you, but it is none of your business what I do with my money. I think it kind of is if we're donating to a cause, but in her head, I think she thought, this is my business. This is what she's telling everybody. This is my business. I started this business. I own this business. No. Let's clarify that right now. Number one, you did not start anything. Number two, you didn't give anything to it in any money up front except for, I think, like I said, which we paid her back, obviously, in full and more. We worked it. We did everything

for it. And it was a donation to her cause. So I don't know where it got in her head in that way, that it was her business. And she would claim it on TikTok. I'm the owner of this many businesses. I started this many businesses, all of these things. But how dare you? And it's none of your business? What I do with my money? That was like, what, what? And like, obviously I have these concerns for a reason.

So then she went on to like, go at me on that text message. She said I was listening to Satan. I wasn't like in the right frame of mind. Like I was listening to the wrong side. She was totally gaslighting me. And I even called her out on that. I said, this is gaslighting and manipulation, what you're saying to me. And she's responded with, wow.

And I think she said like seven times, like, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. She couldn't believe that I would call her out and say she was gaslighting me. But that's exactly what she was doing because she's literally telling me in this, in this text, like, what I'm thinking and what I, you know. What's your feeling. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And putting words and all this. And then telling me that I'm listening to Satan, which she did often.

She often would, anytime I would like question or get stirred up about. something, she would constantly be like, Julie, you need to check yourself. Like, you're listening to the wrong side. Which would mess with my head. It really would. So, okay, so where are we out? Two days later, this gets really, really hard. This is a really hard part of the story. Okay. This happens.

My sister, who is the one who kind of started this whole, this was her idea at the very beginning. To donate money? No, to start this business that, was helping my family. And she has such a good heart. She's, she's such great idea. She started this to be able to help so many people in my family that were struggling at that time. And it was helping so many of my parents and all of this stuff. She's the start of it all. So her son passes away two days later after I have this text exchange with Julie. It was very hard. He was 21 years old.

He passed away in his sleep. And it was very difficult for my family, a very difficult time. Julie knew about it because my sister reached out to her and let her know that it had happened. So I knew that she knew. So I sent her a text and said, hey, this is really hard on my family. I need to go grieve with my family. Can we table this for now? I'm sorry. I even said, I am sorry if I, you know, hurt your feelings or, you know, accused you of things that weren't true or something like that.

Like I just wanted to de-escalate things and get to a place where I could just focus 100% on the passing of my nephew and grieving. And she didn't respond. She didn't respond at all. Okay. So fast forward. I'm with my sister. I'm with my family. Very difficult day.

Very, very difficult day. I get back and I see that there's all these notifications for some TikToks. And I click on him for Julie. and I was, I don't even know the word to say. She got on there the day my nephew passed. And she said, return to send her, don't accept your apology. And they see that she's very, she tries to be very vague, but I, it was so obvious. It was so blatant.

She used our initials. She used JJ for Julie Jackson. She used SW. I'm just going to give these initials. She used the initials for my other family members, okay? She even went on to include my entire family with our last name, the entire this family on top of it and said, F you, F you. She knew your nephew had just died.

She knew my nephew had just died. And there was not, there was multiple TikToks about like betrayal, friend betrayal, return to sender, don't accept your apology, non, I'm not responding. Like, you think she was trying to take responsibility? for the death of your nephew. It almost sounds like it, the return to send her. As in like, do you think she was going to that far almost imply she had something to do with that?

I don't think so, but my sister went there. She said, because that's how the brain, the brainwashing was so deep that my sister was like, oh my gosh, because she said that karma was going to get us. She literally put on that karma. And my sister was like, is this karma for what we did? she's like this is karma like does she and I'm like no no I know I said I'm like no I had to really be like no she does not have that kind of power like this is not karma this is not like it's not

karma she doesn't have a no right right I think I think that that that was definitely there in her yes and well and obviously my sister went right there to it so yes I agree with you I totally agree with you that I think that's what she was trying to do. Like maybe you shouldn't have like this is your karma. Like you shouldn't have like question me and you shouldn't have which is so that's so dark. That is so messed up. First of all, what kind of a person does that to another person? A human being. If you have any bone and I'm telling her like I literally want to speak right to her. Seriously. The question things but I give you the benefit of the doubt so much. I defended you. I went to bat for you.

Even last year, your Lord Vell trial, I was like, Lauren, like, she's my friend, and I'm not going to say anything negative about her. I don't want to say anything negative about you. What kind of person does that to another human being?

I'm sorry, but you're not human. You don't have anything in you that cares about anybody else if you can do that to somebody else's family. And what you did to my sister on that day is unforgivable. It's unforgivable. forgivable and it is he ate at me. And no do what it gets worse. It gets worse. My brother best friends with this my nephew. Best friends. They were roommates. He's one who found him that

next morning not breathing. And Julie calls him and she's like, you know, talking to him and trying to help in that way. But do you know what? She has the what's the word the gall the yes the tenacity to say this to him she says to him it's not the only death in your family there's another one coming somebody else in your family is going to die that wrecked him do you know i didn't even find out about that until days later because he couldn't he was not going to speak that it messed with his head so that he's already he has cops over there doing an investigation. They're asking him questions.

He just lost his best friend. This is my brother is the sweetest. It's hard. It's hard for him to go through it. And she says to him, someone else is going to die in your family? No. No. Would I heard that?

No. Julie, I'm sorry. How can you go to TikTok and say all of these things and say that we betrayed you? And we did all of this. But you did that to my phone. family. I am sorry, but that is unforgivable. No human being should do that to another human being and did mess with your head like that when you are in your most vulnerable, like darkest place, you don't do that. And my brother, if he was on here, would be bawling his eye. I mean, it was so

traumatic for him. He still talks about it. He had to go back to Texas just a few months ago to help his other, like another family member moved back from there. My brother couldn't. stay in Texas. He couldn't, he, he moved out immediately. Like, he moved back to Utah. He had to go back. And he says, all of those things came up again. And he remembered what Julie said to him. And it messed with his head all over again. Like, that is something. And I don't know if you used it. I don't, I don't know if she used it to be like, so somebody else does die. I was right. And this was your karma and used it into control, to keep us in, to keep us to be afraid in fear to let. her go and not donate this money anymore. I don't know what her motives were, honestly, but I guarantee

that they weren't good. They weren't good. It reminds me of the fact that she called Emma Daybal, the day Tammy Daybell died. It seems like she wants to really be invested in the moment of somebody's death sort of to fill empowered. She talks a lot about the conversation she had with Emma Daybell when Tammy Daybal died and sharing about that and telling Emma. She talked to me about that. I remember her being very upset and said to me, I can't believe that Chad is turning his kids against me and Tammy, including specifically she said I was very close to Emma and he's turning Emma against me. And she was very upset about that. So, yeah, and that's very interesting that you say that.

It's almost like she needs to capitalize it on it in some way. I remember my sister talked to her too and my sister said that she, the thing she said was his time was up. Like it was like he finished his pro. Like you shouldn't give, you don't know.

You cannot give that kind of. You just can't say these things. Yeah, like he had finished his probation. And my sister says some other things to me that she said to her that we're very upsetting to her, but that's her story. I'm not going to share it.

And it's like very, as you can imagine, this is very traumatic for her. So I'm not going to share that. It's a piece of she took something that she knew about her son that was very personal to him. And she used it to her advantage and took claim of it. And that has wrecked my sister as well. But I'm not going to go into specifics because out of respect for her and my nephew. I'm not going to talk about it.

But there's just more. And do you know what? She comes. This was so. I'm trying to understand her brain and how it's working. She comes back to us and text my brothers of, hey, I'm checking in. How are you guys doing? My heart's aching for you guys.

This is after she said F you to our initials and my entire family on TikTok. She says, you know, I'm thinking about you guys. Like, how are you doing? I've reached out to Julie. I've reached out to my sister. She never reached out to me. That was a lie. She's again manipulating my brother to be like,

I care because she wants her money. She knows it's almost the time of the month where she gets it. And she's wondering, am I going to get my check this month or my, my wire transfer? And we respond. Our response was we screenshot at her TikTok and we sent it to her in a text. And that's it. We just screenshot of the texts. And then we put, we will no longer be donating to GTRF.

And her response was unrelated. I wasn't, it's unrelated. It wasn't about you guys. I wasn't talking about you. And we're like, okay, so this entire family where she used our names, our last name, but she did like the first three letters and then, you know what I mean? Unrelated. Are you kidding? Are we that stupid? Okay, maybe she thinks we are. I mean, obviously we followed her for however long what we did, but are we that stupid that that's

unrelated? And so she and then she said, when will basically I be getting my next payment? Because I've got these things come and do. And again, we respond to with, we will. no longer be donating to GTRS. And she went ballistic in her text. She said, I'm going to seek counsel. She's like, you will be sending payment for this month. And she wrote down the date on this day, this day, this day, this day. And then she said, I'm seeking counsel.

So we were like, okay, she's getting it. Well, how can she get an attorney? It's a donation. But do you know what she responded with? It's not the counsel in a telestral world. I'm seeking the counsel. from above. Wow.

Yeah. And they know what happened. They know what you did. And that is the council I'm going to. Wow. Yeah. And honestly, at that point, I was like, great. Please do.

I kind of laughed. I just thought it was like laughable. Honestly. So we again responded because she just kept going. And we knew that there's nothing we could say. There was nothing we could say. So again, we just said we will no longer be donating. And that made her really upset.

And she just kept going and going. And we just, we didn't engage. We didn't respond with anything else. And then she went to TikTok for like the next month every day. Just angry. And she said that we were the ones gaslighting her because we were respond because we were unresponsive or that kind of. How can you respond to any of that, honestly?

And there's so much more in those texts. Like I'm not even going into all the detail. Like I'm there's so much she said. I mean, I was shocked at some of the things she said. I want to rewind because there's a vital part of the story that needs to be shared. So after I got home that night and read or saw all of her TikToks, of course, you can imagine I was very distraught. I was very upset. I had nobody to talk to.

There is no way I was going to call my sister and tell her what happened. There's no way I was going to call my brother, who was the one who found him and say, this is what happened. And so I was going to call my family. I was going to bring them into this horrible, this toxicity, this disgustingness, this darkness. So I was very upset. And I was like, I don't know who to call. I don't know who can consult. This is bad.

So I reached out to Eric Smith. It's the only person. And I haven't talked to Eric Smith for years because Julie Roe told us lies about him that I didn't know if we're lies or were true. But because I listened to her, I was like, and you know what? I always felt like Eric Smith had such a good heart. But it was this like, I don't know. know if he wants to talk to us. I don't know how it ended. I probably shouldn't call him or reach out. So it's not like I believed everything she said about him because I knew that I feel like he has such a good heart. And I know his heart. So for me, it was like, I felt comfortable calling him. But I was also like, I don't even know like he's going to take my call. So I call him and he took my call. And he helped me so much. Like I just want to say thank you to Eric. Like,

seriously, I shared what happened and I said, can you please enlighten me with what is going on and what is your story? And he shared his story. And I realized in that moment, his story was my story. And I was like, oh my gosh. And then I felt like I cannot believe that she did this to you too. And he said, Julie, there's like 20 other people. I could give you names right now that she's done this to at least and I was like how do I not how did I not know this and he really felt like he want like what he told me was I knew nobody was going to listen to me and I honestly believe that now because I tried to tell my story to some of these people in there and they literally are like won't answer my text they think because they're listening to whatever she's saying and he Eric knew that

and he's like there's nothing I could say you kind of had to get to a place and I knew eventually like someone would reach out. But he's like, you have no idea the people that she's hurt. He told me about these other girls that I had met early on. And I was like, whatever happened to them, he goes, Julie said horrible things about that. She started talking about them. They went over to his house one night and they were bawling their eyes out.

And they were like, how can she say these things about us? Why would she? These are stories that need to cut. These are stories I didn't know. And that night when I was so distraught and upset, he brought. I felt so much peace after talking to him. And I knew that what he was speaking was truth. And I knew that like, I just felt this like calm. It's just I can't even explain it. I knew that all of a sudden like, oh my gosh, like I am in a cult. Like, you know what I mean? And I even said to

him, I was like, he said he was still deprogramming. And it says it's taken him years. And it has me. Like it takes years to be kind of deprogrammed from this stuff. But. But one thing he said to me was, he's like, it is your God-given right to process. And it is your God-given right to say, be mad and upset and say, this isn't okay. And like, because there's so much of it that was like you start feeling like you're bad as you start, you're just like talking negative about these people and saying these things about them and being like, how dare her and all of those things? Like, it is my God-given right to process what happened to me.

and I am coming out here and saying these things about her. And I don't think it means that I, you know, however she sees it and twists it to these people. And if these people are watching this and think that like, I don't know, like, I'm doing a bad thing here by like saying all this stuff. I'm not. Like it's it's not what I'm doing. This needs to come out and I'm processing.

And it just helped me so much to just kind of hear what he had to say and like what he's gone through. And my heart goes out. him in aches because he had nobody he was so alone in all of this and and julie literally turned us all against him like all of us in so many ways and to think like we were afraid to reach up because some of the things she said about him and i mean she called him like that he was in a probation that like killed joseph smith he was one of the ones that killed joseph smith in a past probation she told us that wow yeah but you know what years before that she said he was abraham in a past life and iaiah

Or not Abraham, sorry, Isaiah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So it's, can you, it's just like, yeah. I mean, remember when she told us that President Nelson was Noah? I mean, I don't know if you know that. She said, President Nelson was Noah.

And then she came back in a class and said, Chad is the one who gave her that information. And she's like, you know, and now I don't, you know, we realize who Chad is now and I was misled and I apologize. He's not Noah. That was from Chad. she has somebody as a scapego, honestly. All the time.

Yeah, but she doesn't own any of it. And like hearing that, here I am being like, if I contributed to any of this in any way, which I feel like by validating these people and being a part of this, I did. I'm not saying that like I knew anything about the kids. I knew anything about these people. But her on a level of like so much greater. How can you not have guilt and shame? And like, I contributed to some of this.

Like she did. And she is just, nobody's talking about it. And she needs to come out and be like, how dare I? In other words, this is the same system that created Chad Daybough. Yeah. Well, and think of the system that has created so many. I mean, I just feel like there's so many. Like I'm saying, like the Ruby Frankies and the, yes.

And Jody Hildebrand and Lori Vallow and when is this going to just like, stop and I feel like it's not going to stop until many of us come out and we share these stories and say like this is what happened to me. If this is happening to you, look at the signs, look at the patterns, look at the line upon line of how they get you just like, I mean, that's what they teach in church in LDS church, how Satan gets you. It's here a little give us some truth. Julie gave truth. Julie spoke some truth. She helped open my eyes to things that I was like, and I even talked to Eric about this. I was like, Eric, I don't understand. How can this person that help me through this, was there for me for that, gave me these truths, be this person over here.

How could she get on TikTok and do this? I don't understand. And he said to me, you know, and I don't want to, this is how I interpreted what he was trying to say to me. So if I'm like, hashing what he was trying to actually say to me, this is how I'm rephrasing this is how I took it, is that God can speak through anyone. But does that mean that that person is God himself or even just a good person? He's like, what I realized is that God's voice started becoming very muffled.

Like I couldn't hear. And it became, Julie's voice replaced that. And the second that I kind of stepped away and I started getting that voice out of my head, I could bring back in like my sovereignty. And he goes, I had to go down this road of like my sovereignty. and listening to only myself and nobody else. And that's what I think the key to all of this is is like, why do we need all these people tell it?

Why do we need a Ruby Frankie? Why do we need a Julie Roe? Why can't we get there ourselves? And this is one of the biggest lessons I learned last year is this phrase, The truth will set you free. And I went into this deep dive in it because I felt I had a lot of health issues last year. And I can imagine why now. I feel like my whole system was in so much chaos and so much trauma from all of this.

I wasn't listening to my, to my, do you know many times these thoughts would come in? Red flag, red flag, red flag, and I'd just be like, that's Satan, that's the adversary. Because that's what she would tell me. That's what she tells everybody. You're listening to the wrong side. And I'm like, la, la, la, la, they're just trying to get me, you know,

to think these bad things about her. And so I pushed it away. That was my conscience. That was my self telling me, hello, red flag. But I pushed it away so many times. And that made my system go into chaos. and I started having so many health issues, I couldn't walk. I couldn't walk around the block once last June without being in severe pain.

What is that? I went from doctor to doctor. What is wrong with me? Not until I started doing a deep dive into this phrase, the truth will set you free. I don't think it means by telling, I mean, telling your truth will set you free. I think it's like multiple ways of, yeah. For me, it was when I fully started. trusting myself so fully that nobody could get in my head and say and gaslight me and tell me,

you know, don't think that way you're greedy. You just want more money. You're this. You're that. You're an apex predator. Say her to destroy me. You're crazy. Anything.

And I said, none of this is true. I know who I am. And I'm going to trust this. I'm going to trust myself. I'm going to listen to me and I'm going to take back my sovereignty. That set me free. And when I got set free, I went on a journey of healing. And I've been healing.

And I found the right doctors. I got the right answers. I feel so much better in my health. I feel so much better in my relationships with people. And nobody is telling me what to think or what to believe. No religion is telling me that. I have been judged like crazy for it and everything. But like I'm telling you like, God wants us to get to a place.

I fully believe. It doesn't matter what you believe. It doesn't matter if you're Christian, if you're Catholic, if you're Buddhist, it doesn't. matter do you know what matters that you are listening to your heart so fully that you can replace love with your ego let your ego go completely replace that and my husband he's so great and wise and he kind of like we had this conversation like a few weeks ago and I didn't listen to him for so long I I tuned him out so much because I was like you're wrong you're wrong

yes and he tried to help me see it and it cost so many issues in my marriage and and I didn't listen to him and I wasn't listening to myself. I was I don't know. I was listening to everybody else. But like he came at what we were talking to our kids about what we're trying to teach them and we're like I was telling about ego and it was just like all about well I was telling me it's all about love. And my husband's like it's not just about love. It's literally letting go of ego and replacing it with love because you have to bring back the soul in connection at one with yourself. When you trust yourself, you're trust yourself. in him, you're bringing him in and you're yoked. And it's this like, you don't need anything else.

You don't need your beliefs because at the end of the day, I think people who have good hearts and of good people mostly believe in the same thing. And it's all about uniting in a way where we can hold hands and say, it doesn't matter what you believe because I love you. I love you no matter what, regardless of any of this. And I think that's the point. Like I felt like the beginning when I was following Julie, I felt like she had this message that resonated with me about that stuff. And then all of a sudden, the message is completely changed completely. And this is one more thing I want to say about this is the Ineagram. But it helped me so much because I was in the lower value trial and I was trying to

understand how does a person go from here to here? And like, was she here the whole time? Or, you know, I'm just trying to process and understand. And I started thinking about, so in the enneagram, it kind of, gives you a number of your personality trait. There's nine numbers, and it's a circle. So it's flowing energy. You connect it and you have your numbers.

And each number has a gift of Jesus. It's a gift of Christ. Nine is peacemaker. It's the love. A one brings the details into like working hard on things. A two is the helper. A three is the achiever. They accomplish things.

A four is the creative, the artist. A five is the let's take step back. like let's try to seek to understand. A six is the loyal, wormhearted. A seven is the enthusiast. And they're the positive one. I'm a seven, by the way. But they also don't like to deal with pain.

And eight is the challenger, the leader. They challenge things, but they fight for the underdog. Those are Christ-like characteristics. You're supposed to, whatever number you are, the goal is to kind of conquer that number, your deadly sin in that number, because everyone has the opposite in it too. Conquer that deadly sin.

Meet Christ in the same. center. Oh, well, you're supposed to move through the numbers and try to bring them all in, which we need all of us. You know, I've had people say, like, I hate your crime or hate this. I'm sorry, but in this world, we need everybody. We need the enthusiast. We need the creative. We need the deep diver that it's going to research all this stuff. We cannot have a full picture or even like this tapestry or whatever you want to see it without every one of us. We contribute something. And I'm so tired of being like, you need to be more like me or you need to see my sight. No, we need all of that. And that's why I've been trying to be.

trying to do is like my husband is an achiever how can I be more goal oriented my sister who helped me open my eyes on on on Julie row where I was like well you're like way into your crime and that's like kind of unhealthy and then I was like the second I became more open mind to be like what can she teach me what can I bring in in a five that I don't have in my seven is when I started like waking up to these things and realizing like everybody can give you something if you're willing to hear them out and like be open minded to that so really quick so the whole goal is to move to the next numbers bring in all the Christ-like characteristics, meet him in the center with unconditional love for humanity.

That's the goal. Now, what I see in the opposite of Julie Roe and Lori, and this is being, people might think this is very judgmental or whatever, but this is how I see it. The opposite, the deadly sins. So nine slothfulness. One, anger.

Two, pride. Three, vanity. Four, envy. Five, greed. Six, fears. Seven, gluttony. Eight. lust, okay?

When you bring in one of those, whatever number you are, if you are giving that, giving that all its energy, and you want to use this as an example. I don't know this for this. This is just my opinion. I believe Julie Roe was an eight or is an eight. And I think that she brought in lust. And I think that there's some things there that brought in with like the fact that she wanted all these men to be around and she'd tell these men, I mean, I've heard.

first accounts from some of these men that she literally would tell them like the one of them was going to be her next husband, that her husband was going to die. Another pattern. I mean, Tammy David was going to die. Julie's Roe's husband was going to die. Oh, and P.S., you know what she told me once is that she was going to be shot, have like a Lazarus experience where she was going to die and come back to life three days later and people would know that she was like truly a true prophet.

But that was something she taught at the very beginning. And then she said, whenever things would change, she'd say, well, we jumped timeline or that happened in another dimension. And then you justify it away. You're like, and then she'd say, if you didn't see it in the other dimension, like, as it happened, and like, you're not in tune. It just, it's just so messed with your head. So where was I?

So the deadly sin, yeah, the eight with the lust. I feel like there was this, like, I wasn't getting what I wanted out of, like, my relationship or whatever in this way. And there was, you know, she kind of lusted after these other men. She would tell them that she would have visions of them in the bedroom. And she would give details about it. And she would mess with their heads. She'd feed their egos to hook them.

And then they all were like fighting to be like that person. And she would tell him things like, well, you could be a recarnation of Jesus. Or, you know, she would, it was just these things where it was like, this grandiosis. Now these men are like, and you, I mean, we. So the men were being told just to get this. Yeah. To get this clear, the men were being told sexual fantasies of them by Julie. Yes, so she'd have vision.

Yeah. Well, in past lives when they were married, I believe, is what they were kind of trying to explain. And this is like. Other people's husbands. Yes, other people's husbands. And the women weren't allowed to like really go to these things. So she would, she was vetting her next husband. And so these, it's like, and these men would be like wanting that.

They, you know, like, because that would make them feel like they were going to be married to Mary Magdon. They're going to be married to the queen. They were going to be married to this person who's been all of these people. Yeah. So it messed with their heads. And so lust. I kind of feel like that was kind of her thing. And then I started going through all these numbers.

I did it with Lori Valo. I'm like, did Lori Valo have pride? Did Lori Valo have anger? Did Lori Valo? Was she envious? Was she greedy? Was she? Did she have fears?

And as I went through them all, I'm like, check, check, check. Now instead of meeting Christ in the center with unconditional love for humanity, she is clear over here with hate for humanity. And she's listening to the wrong thing. And that put it into perspective for me because I couldn't justify anything away anymore. And when I did the kind of same thing with Julie and where she got to that place, looking at her TikToks and things like that, she would justify it away and say things like, well, I'm clearing energy on people judging me.

No. that's vanity. No, that's right. She's like masking it. And what's called spade a spade? How do you justify this away? And I'm not trying to be like, I'm this great perfect person. I definitely have deadly sins that I'm working on in myself and all in the numbers. Like, I've not conquered my number. Like, I have worked to do. But I think that it's a pathway of, like, you have a pathway to, to, um, growth and learning become more like Christ-like. And it's bringing like, I'm going to have more I'm going to try to be more peacemaker. I'm going to try to more love.

I'm going to try to. Nine is the love. They bring the love. I'm going to try to bring these in. But it's the flip. And I think it's a road of like all of a sudden she's getting these huge donations. And she's making all of this money. And it's like, oh my gosh.

And then she's getting this grandiosis like, oh, my heck, people are listening to me. And they're validating me. And then this pride comes in. And it's like the slow. And I almost don't even think she saw it coming. And I don't think even Lori saw it coming. I don't think Chad saw it coming. It's just this like, oh my gosh.

And that's how I see it. And the Indiogram literally has changed my life because it's helped me understand my kids better. It's helped me understand my relationship. My husband better. It's help me see him in a different light of what he brings rather than being like, why is you have to achieve all the time? It's like, oh, that's how he feels his worth. He's a three. And I can have more empathy for him because that's what he deals with and his deadly sin and needing to achieve to feel worth.

And it makes me have more empathy. That's the goal is to look at these, you know, these numbers and be like, I don't want to say people are numbers, but that. that to me is more, I get more out of that than I do going to a Sunday service. That to me is trying to understand people more and have more love and have more all of that. So my goal in all of this with this interview is not to be like trash, trash, trash and Holy Cow, Julie Row. It's like, Julie, please, like I love you. I cared for you. I give so much of my time and energy.

I, like my family. I would miss birthdays to go and do her hair and make up for one of her events. I would give her clothes and all of this stuff. I just, and I'm not trying to be like, I want credit for that. I don't need it. But like, how can she not see what I put forth in that? And then to go turn and say, F you to me and my family. And I just want her like to have her.

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I was open to be like, oh my gosh, wait a minute. know and it's not my job to do that but I'm just hoping if anyone anyone listening can relate to my story in any way to be like own your shit don't be afraid to own your shit but then also don't be afraid to say this isn't okay like I'm just over here like we need more people saying this isn't okay and not being afraid of like the repercussions of it and people going and being like oh she just wants this out of there she wants I don't know I'm so sick of people twisting things I mean, like your thing that you did the other day with your life when you were like, people, I put eyelashes on and that's too much, but I don't put lipstick.

You're like, you didn't get ready and you don't care. Come on, everybody. Like, cut us all some break. Try to understand where Lauren is, whatever number she is and what she's dealing with in her life. And try to just have empathy for everybody in love and understanding because that's what Christ did. And isn't that, isn't that, if anybody is preaching religion here and all of that, we have missed the mark. What who freaking cares about multiple probation? Who cares about 4.2 light?

Who cares about any of this? The point is, is love. I love you. I'm not going to judge you. Does that I'm excited? I'm just like, yes, it's like my goal in all of this. What is it then that people are seeing and wanting in the light and dark scale and in the multiple probation? Because I agree with you.

Yeah. It's missing the boat. It's missing the point. Yeah. What is it? that that people want in the light and dark and the multiple probation, what are they cleaned? Well, I can tell you what it was for me. When I heard I was a 4.2 light, I'm pretty hard on myself.

As a 7, it says we beat ourselves up a lot, and I have been beating myself up. And to hear somebody tell me I was a 4.2 light, maybe feel something, it made you feel like, oh my gosh, like, I'm light, you know? and I cling to it because I was like, I just needed that. And honestly, I can admit that there was some like, oh my gosh, like, well, I'm more than a three, you know, like I'm a four point two. I've been here four times. Like, maybe I've done some good things.

Everybody wants to hear that about themselves. I mean, let's be honest. You know, nobody wants to hear that they're dark, but you don't think about that because you were just told you were a four point of light. you're not thinking about the people that were called dark until all of a sudden you start hearing them talk about people that you care about that are dark and then you're like well that doesn't make me feel good that doesn't feel right but i'm so glad i'm light you know i'm on the lord's side i'm on the right side i don't know it just i think that there's something there where these people grasped onto it in a way that was like like like lory vallow where it was this she wanted to i think she had a desire to be like the spiritual person that's like i have that desire i have that desire i I want God to know that I love him and Jesus. And but it gets to a level like with her where it was almost like, I want to be $144,000.

Like sign me up. What do we have to do? I want to prove my love to Lord. But it starts getting to a place and I even started seeing myself going there. I would tell my husband I'd be like, well, you have earmos. Or like your eyes aren't open. And I never, when I said that to him, I never saw as like I was like telling me he wasn't away. I didn't see it. I was just like, one day you'll wake up and you'll see that this is all true.

But now I look at that. How horrible was that that? That I said that to him. You're not awake. Nobody says that to say that to somebody else. And I said that. You're not awake. You can't see the truth. But I didn't see it like that. And I don't think Lori Val saw it like that. And I still don't think she sees it like that. I think you have to get to a place where you're like, you come out here and you see yourself like this and you're like, oh, shit. I don't like what I see. Like, oh my gosh. And you have to look at yourself in a way that like isn't just in this like, I'm a 4.2 light.

That was another thing that started helping me get out is there's more ways to get from point A to point B. And I feel like in the LDS church where how I grew up, I felt like this is how you get from point A to point B. You get married in the temple and you get baptized and you make your confidence. And this is how you're going to get to the end. So I was already conditioned for that. I was already brainwashed for that. Like, so Julie Rose telling me this is how I get from point A to point B and I got to do it this way. Like, okay, I don't want to do this again.

Well, let's break these contracts. But now I'm like, F that. Dude, I'm making my own plan. And I don't have to go be in the other church and I don't have to be here and I don't have to do this. I can do it my way and I can get to the same place that you're going to get. And do you know what's really cool is that my sister was against the Julie. real beliefs the whole time. And I was 100% for them. But we have landed in the same place, in the same place. And we connect to it. And it's like, we both got there. And, you know, people will be like,

you know, don't you regret it and look what you did and you were in there. But do I have learned so much. I am not the same person I was. And it sucks that I had to go through that and support that and be through all of that to get to this place. But I probably really needed it because I was that far like, you know, over here. So in a way to say I'm grateful, I know sounds wrong, but I am grateful for where I'm at now. And I hope people can be, give me grace to be like, and we also should just be giving each other grace. I believe grace. I know you do because I have felt that from you. And you know, what's so crazy is Julie kept saying like, you know, don't watch those things. like true crime, she was very against your guys as what you're bringing out your program.

That's honestly because I think that you guys do expose things that need to be exposed. And she's probably afraid of that. And I know you've reached out to her most times for an interview. And I think you had been very fair in her. You've been very fair to me. I've shared that I've had empathy for her. Yes, you have. You did.

You did. By men on a vow. I've been kicked to the curve. I've actually shared empathy for Julie. You did. I remember that. And that actually helped me. connect to you even more because I realized that you just have a good heart and I knew that.

And it's funny because the first time that we met and you recognize me from the TikTok, I was a little bit like, well, Julie's word me about her. I'm like, now she recognizes me. But I was like, she's really nice and I really like her. And I feel really good when I'm around her. And I don't have to listen to what she's telling me about her. And I think that there's no coincidences and the fact that you recognize me at the trial and that I'm doing this interview and everything that's happened, I just try to follow.

my truth and myself and what I feel like I need to do. And everything in my fiber, my being has been telling me that I need to do this interview. And there's so many people were trying to tell me not to do it. That's exactly what happened in so many other ways. So it's like, no, I don't listen to myself. I am more free when I follow. And I don't want to get to a place of so much chaos again where my body is like, I have such reactions physically to me not listening.

or going against or I'm a very physical reaction person. I think I'm a very empathetic person. And so I physically have reactions to things in like very big ways. And some people might say that as like, you know, like, I don't know. There's people that say things about people that are empathetic, but I'm very highly sensitive. And it affects me in my system. And this whole thing with all this for nine years has majorly affected me for good, for bad,

for all of it. But I'm like, honestly, at the end of the day, like, I wouldn't be where I'm at without it. And I think about the growth that my family has had, but that was almost destroyed, which is so sad because I don't know. It just is sad. She's done that to a lot of families because she's inserted herself where she shouldn't. And you talk about in the LDIS church about like Unrighteous Dominion.

Hello. Here she is talking about the LDICT church. She trashes them all the time about you're doing the same things. Julie, you're doing the same things. There's the Unrighteous Dominion. There's the cult stuff. There's the like brainwashing. There's the hello.

I went from one cult to another cult. And some people are going to have a hard time with me saying that because I have a lot of close friends. People there are still in the other church. I have major respect for whatever journey people are on. For me, because of what I've been through, it's not a healthy place for me to be. I think any religion can be a cult for some people. It was a cult for you. It was a cult for me.

And that's okay. You can own that. Yeah. I can own that. And someone can say, well, it wasn't for me. Exactly. It's not for my daughter. And I totally respect that.

Like we all respect each other in this family. My husband sometimes goes to church and I don't. We are all in a place where respecting each other individually wherever we're at. It's our individual journey. What do I need to get me to point B wherever I'm getting? And we can all get there and I'm just doing it my way. And it's too triggering for me right now to even be a part of any of that because of certain things. But that doesn't mean I'm saying that it's all bad.

And that's not me saying you shouldn't be in it. And it's not me telling you what to do. It's saying for me, I feel like I went from one. cult to the next cult and I need to heal and I'm taking back my sovereignty and this is me and God doing this together and I don't need anybody else to insert themselves and tell me that I'm doing it wrong or right or anything I don't need it I don't need Julie row anymore I didn't need her for a time and I am grateful for what she gave to me I am I'm truly grateful for the gifts that she did give to me and that I got from her but I'm very upset about some other things like that she took from me

you know? Yeah. I'm still learning. I think that sometimes I give people too much of like the benefit of the doubt or I just want to see all the good and I try to like erase that bad. So this is me trying to get to a place of being like, I don't like to deal with pain. I run away from pain.

I run away from anything bad and negative like that. It's hard for me. So this for me is so good to even be doing this interview because I'm processing and I'm like getting to a place where I'm like can get say, you know, kind of observe it in a way without emotion. You know, detached and see it for what it was because I'm a very attached person. And I have to detach and be like, this is what this was. And I see it for what it is.

And I'm detaching in a way where I'm not bringing in the emotion to it so that I can just in the future look at things in a way of detachment of emotion to be like, this is an experience, if that makes sense. Because I'm so attached with emotion into these things. I put my whole self in. I put my whole being. And I, how could you do this to me? But in the end, it's like, I did this to myself.

And I can't even, can I even blame her fully? I mean, I think I'm responsible for the fact that I have work to do. Like, I need to own the fact that I have work to do on myself. I have work to get to in a place where I can, like, not let this happen again and not be manipulated and not, you know, all of these things. Like, I can't just go blame her for everything. And I can't blame. Yes, like, there's responsibility these people need to own and stuff.

Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to you. our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall,

become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Here stood Anders and I'm trying to get her way his daughter to forescol. It goes not so bad. Anders Ler stort.

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