Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Never-Before-Heard Calls & Dr. John Discusses Tylee Ryan's Injuries

Episode Date: May 19, 2024

Samantha Gwilliam, Tammy Daybell's sister, and her husband, Jason Gwilliam, took the stand. We heard a brand new phone call that Jason recorded between himself, Chad, and Lori for the police. Dr. John joins to discuss the testimony from forensic anthropologist Dr. Angi Christensen, who examined Tylee Ryan's remains. This episode is a compilation of trial recaps posted on YouTube each day during lunch breaks. The audio isn't perfect, but you can hear what's said. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. A podcast that started at their dinner table has now become the dynamic husband-and-wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I am clearly home today. Came home from Mother's Day weekend, but John and I have been watching the live stream together for the trial. And wow, wow, wow. Jason and Samantha, what an incredible job. This is the first time we've heard from Jason, by the way. We heard from Samantha when it came to Lori Vallo's trial, but not Jason. And Jason today brought more than any of us were expecting, including some new evidence. None of us have ever seen none of us of recording that he made with law enforcement in December of 2019.

I can't imagine Jason starts his testimony actually sharing how close he and Chad were, which I actually think really gave him street cred and more validity because he's saying, no, I was close to Chad. We were close to Tammy. You know, Samantha expressed in her testimony, Tammy and her were best friends. They were inseparable, that they talked about growing old together, that they wanted to be able to, you know, be old women together with their pets and their grandchildren. This was a close sisterhood and in-law relationship. And Jason, for the most part, thought Chad was a great guy, and he admits that.

He gave a fascinating timeline of how things laid out. And I'm so grateful for that. This jury needs to know this timeline. He brought up that Chad Daybell did discuss these experiences in La Jolla, California, you know, the rogue wave that hit him. And then when he cliff jumped and that's, you know, those became Chad Daybell's near-death experiences. And Jason did say that he, Chad Daybell told him those things in the early 2000s and that they actually happened. But then they were this sort of spiritual situation. And then they became near-death experiences later.

Boom. Exactly. And he brings up an author. He brings up an author that wrote books that maybe sort of created some change in Chad. And he didn't name this author by name, but we can all suspect that this is Julie Roe, that this timeline about Chad's and his involvement and his visions is just going to reinforce with the jurors that Chad was essentially this cult leader of the group, that he was calling the shots. Let's talk about the censor letter.

Censure. Censor. Guys, okay, I won't even try. So that was shocking. Samantha, Tammy's sister was also dubbed dark. So now we're seeing a pattern of Chad Daybell calling people dark when they don't do what Chad says. So what did Samantha and Jason not do to get Samantha called dark not move to Rexburg?

So here is this family, this extended family too, settled and happy in Springville, Utah. The Douglas family, that's Tammy's family. They raised their kids in Springville. All of the families there. The day bells, they raise their kids there. Tammy and Chad both grew up. This is a nice bedroom community within the Salt Lake City Valley. Everyone's happy.

And then Chad tells Tammy he has to move to Rexburg in 2015. We're moving. We learned from Samantha and Jason that Tammy wasn't happy about that move. We know that. We've heard all this before, but now the jury's hearing it, so let's go over it all. So they moved to Rexburg and Samantha again shares. You know, Tammy was not happy about this. But that's not enough for Chad.

Chad has to tell Jason and Tammy that they need to move there. And he tells them about the 10 cities. That's what Heather Dable. Heather Dable gave us a tour of where that was. That was actually Heather and Matt's property. Heather wasn't buying it. Jason admits, which I think is really good. to believing Chad for a time.

They considered moving to Idaho. And can you imagine that too? Like your brother-in-law writes you and says, you guys aren't moving to Idaho. You need to move. These earthquakes are going to happen. There's going to be all this death and destruction. You guys got to move up here.

This is the city of lights in Rexburg. This is where you're going to have safety and refuge. And the reason you guys aren't moving is because why? Samantha's dark. It's always the woman's fault. Here's the pattern with Chad Daybell. guys, Chad has a very clear pattern of really strong disdain for women. So when Jason and Samantha don't move to Idaho, Samantha is dark.

And that is going to show a serious pattern with the jury. If Samantha's dark and, you know, maybe it's genetic. Maybe that's why Tammy's dark too. If Samantha, Tammy's own sister is dark, then you know what? Tammy, it makes sense that he might call Tammy dark too. Chad has a pattern of labeling people dark. It's so sad to hear, though, that Samantha and Jason, even after that letter, chastising them, they started to spend more time in Idaho considering a move to Idaho.

In the end, they didn't want to. And Jason admits now that he felt that Chad was creating fear and it was upsetting to them. I think, honestly, this was probably the beginning of the end. Like, you either move or you don't. and they made the choice not to and they see, Jason sees this as fear tactics. I see it. This is cult 101.

Fear tactics, fear of outsiders. If you don't do what I say, you're labeled dark. This is on you. Same, same guys. Same routine. Same song and dance. You know, human history repeats itself over and over again. Human nature.

This is a cult. This is what cults do. So good for Jason and Samantha for finally saying, no, we don't want to move, you know, although Samantha was sad and she missed Tammy dearly. And then they started to notice that things did progressively change. And then here we are to 2019. We know from Steve Schultz that Jason defended Chad right when Tammy died, saying, no, like, you know, Chad would never do this. But oh, how the time, like Chad would never murder his wife.

But oh, how times changed. And it was Jason in December of 2019 who met with FBI, met with law enforcement and was like, you know what? you know what? I'm going to record this call for all of you. And he did a great job and he acted naive and he got some great information. And Lori, little 120 pound, 5 foot six, physically fit, attractive Lori.

Chad's new wife was on the phone as well. And then what do they do? Label Heather Davelle Dark. Heather Deval comes up again and again. People calling me from Rexberg saying, we want to bring you in for questions and talk to you about what's been going on and we're trying to find some kids. And what do you know about it? And I'm going, I don't know anything.

What? Why? Okay. No, I don't know what's going on. And so yesterday they actually went to Leah's house and tried to threaten her. We're not fully sure what. They're trying to accomplish. It's mainly one detective.

even expert. So finally we got a hold of an attorney and that's pretty much where it goes from here. It's just... You know me? I don't deal with a lot of this stuff very well. I'm just like, okay, I'm a simple dude. What's going on? What do you guys want to do? What's happening? You're out. I don't know how you would even be involved. I have no idea. They're just trying to go through and just kind of see if I know anything about anything going on. And I'm like, uh, no. Why would I? Talk to me. Tell me what's going on.

Well, we're trying to find two kids that, along with Lori, and we just want to know if they're being sheltered down in Utah. And I'm like, I don't have any idea what you're talking about. So is there kids that are not involved or what are they talking about? So I'll have a clue if they show up at my house. If they show up, you can just give them the attorney's name and say, we're not talking to you without an attorney. Okay.

It's my sister. It's just a bunch of people that are starting trouble for no reason. It's separate from the Tammy situation. Mr. William, you just heard that reference to the Tammy situation. What did you take that to mean from Chad when he said that? When he said the Tammy situation, I can only the fact that he had buried her soon, married Lori as quickly as he did, I don't know that it would be a situation and I don't know what he means by situation at that point.

Let me backtrack slightly. Possibly the Tammy situation could be in reference to him calling previously to ask about her exhumation. They're trying to combine it all together. So do you want to send me that attorney's number? Do you want to text it to me? Yeah. Yeah, if you can do that, that would be helpful, I'm sure. They're just crats me in straws.

I still feel Heather Daybell's behind it. Okay. Just, she's an evil woman. It's her in-law that's his officer. Yeah, did he call you? No, he didn't call me. It was another individual. And so, yeah, that's where I'm like, okay,

getting a little bit weird here. And so I thought we reached us to you to find out, you know, what's going on. So we pretty much blocked them. It's a simple situation. But we just can't tell you because then you have to be involved. Yeah. No, I get it.

That's fine. So at that point, they're talking about bringing down like a host, like FBI people involved and stuff. You just heard Chad describe the situation as a simple situation? Correct. And he said, I can't tell you because I don't want to get you involved. That was what was stated. And you said, okay, I understand. What did you mean by that comment?

At that point, I felt that it probably possibly was a smaller situation. I didn't know what the situation was. And so at that stage, I think he was just trying to keep me out of the loop. I don't need that. It's Christmas. So, you know, that's where I'm just going, all right. That's interesting. So, okay.

Well, you don't know anything with you. Great. You don't know anything. No, I don't know anything. And so that's good news at that point in time. I don't know how they would have done that other than Heather. She knows our friendship. Oh, sure.

No, of course. Yeah. And that's why I was like, yeah, maybe I better get a heads up about what they might have to say or what's going to happen or what they're talking about doing. And so if you've got that name on that, I'll just say, hey, look, you know, you may just want to go talk to these people. I don't need this. Everybody that we know, it's just so dumb. Okay.

So it's referred police who are being whatever. Yeah, they've gone. And Heather's in law is this detective that's bugging everybody. And then what do we learn for Jason William that he calls Heather? Oh, no, we don't learn it from Jason William. We learned it from Chad Daybell. Right. It was on the recording.

Heather Dayball is an evil woman. An evil woman. So now she's not just a potster and she's just a straight up evil woman. Now, he, man, Chad Dable has disdain for Heather Dabo and I think for women in general that don't do what he says. And you can see his rage and his anger. They talk about this is heartbreaking to hear and I'd always notice this. I'd noted it before Tammy Dabell's headstone is beautiful.

But it is typically LDS tradition, not always, but oftentimes LDS tradition. to put both the husband and wife on the gravestone and share that they're together forever or for eternity. And Chad actually specifically requested his name not be on the gravestone. He specifically requested that Tammy be buried elsewhere in a different state than him, telling Samantha that she'd take good care of Tammy, Tammy's headstone for him, because it was winter in Reckford. Heaven forbid a husband of 30 years can't go visit his wife's grave. that's her sister's responsibility.

And then we learned this awful conversation about Chad telling Jason. Chad would tell Jason intimate things about Tammy and him that their sex life is vanilla. That was a really important thing for Jason to say too because, again, the prosecution's argument, their opening statements, this is about sex money and power. Well, yeah, Chad's complaining that his and Tammy's sex life is vanilla. And then when he marries Lori Valo, we learned that this is how. If you want to know how he objectifies women and takes possession of women, Chad tells Jason, oh, by the way, Lori Vallow, I'm married, surprise.

I still have to tell everyone, but I got married November 5th, just a couple weeks after. And she's fit, she's attractive. She's 120 pounds and 5 foot 6. Like, he's talking about livestock. He's referring to livestock when it comes to Lori. If you want to know what Chad Daybell thinks of women, to him it's just like, you know, Oh, this is a 10 cow woman right here. That's what this is.

And we're seeing that. And I'm pretty sure the jury will find that despicable too. And that came from Jason. And then Samantha William brought it home. I just want to say thank you to Samantha William. I can't imagine how difficult it is and how betrayed you must feel that your sister and your best friend and a man you trusted. And you have to testify at his trial. And she was emotional.

She was heartbroken and she brought Tammy to life. Tammy might not be with us today, but nobody has brought Tammy to life more than Samantha today. About the loss this world has without Tammy Debao, without her best friend, without her sister. And it was a very, very powerful day and mourning in court. I am so proud of Samantha and I'm so proud of Jason. I'm so grateful that I was able to just briefly run into them yesterday

before I jumped on a flight. They are an incredible couple. They are telling the truth. I think they have such incredible street cred, admitting that they believe some of this, admitting that they thought Chad was a great guy, that they were close and how they saw things change. Chad stopped coming around that he didn't cry at the funeral,

that he said he was all cried out, that he didn't attend a dinner that Samantha put together. I mean, this is a guy too. Sorry, I've got to end, but I just can't get over this stuff. how unaware do you have to be like, okay, you murder your wife, right? Your wife's murdered and you're like, don't want anyone to find out. How arrogant do you have to be to be like, okay, but I can't even attend a dinner that my sister-in-law, that my late-wife's sister put together for all of us before I get back to my mistress and marry her?

Like, he can't even attend that. Like the arrogance and the disrespect to do. Tammy is just unparalleled. Like, you'd think he'd be at least, like, pretending. And Jason admits, Jason admits, Chad tried to cry, but he didn't. And that's what we've been seeing on the stand. There is no difference. Who we are looking at is who Chad Daybill is and always has been.

Samantha, it was devastating listening to Samantha. But I also know that Jason and Samantha both, they affected the jurors so much. today. So much today because they got to know who Tammy was. And so I want to thank Samantha, as well as Jason, for their testimony today. This episode is sponsored by Garden. Groceries are getting more expensive and somehow less fresh. If you're tired of throwing away wilted greens and overpaying for produce that doesn't last, it's time to grow your own. Meet Garden. It's a sleek, soil-free, indoor growing system that does the hard work for you. Using automated light and water,

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Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden to crime. I'm not in the courtroom today. I am still here with my family after spending it with my family for Mother's Day. I'm glad I'm home today with Dr. John, who's actually here with me. We'll have them on in just a second. I'm trigger warning. I have seen those photos that they showed in court today of Tiley Ryan's remains.

I have seen them. I have seen the chopping and the stabbing wounds in her bone that is all this left of her in her pelvis area. We learned probably today the most brutal parts of these crimes. I want to say thank you to Ashley's best friend for testifying today. Many people wondered with such a short testimony, what was the purpose of it? Ashland testifying, which is so sweet that her name is Ashland, because Tyler's middle name is Ashland. She was able to say that she had been over to Lori and Charles's house and had met everyone, including JJ, that she was protective of JJ, that she got along with her mother, that all was well, and that she'd even met Alex and Tiley got along, that Alex and

Tiley got along, that Alex had offered her a place to stay once. I think what the implication of this was was what changed? Tiley moved to Idaho. And two weeks later, what happened to Tiley? The unthinkable happened to Tiley. That was the point of Ashland's testimony. They could have gone into some emotional stuff and asked Ashlyn about what Tyley was like beyond. But I think also you have to realize that first off, they were saving Ashland from needing to testify too much. Secondly, whatever the prosecution brings up with Ashland, the best friend of Tyley, defense then can then counteract it and cross. It's like a game of cat and mouse a little bit. And so they were keeping it short and sweet for a reason. And it was just enough to understand.

It was just enough to understand that what changed in Tiley Ryan's life? What changed? Chad DeBow, a move to Idaho. That is what changed. And then we heard the horrendous details, and we learned that at or near the time of death, there were stab wounds, chopping and stabbing wounds. They brought in a forensic anthropologist, actually, Doug Hilsbaka,

to explain the different tools that were used, that they attacked her from the front at or near time of death in the pelvis region and that these were not, or in the bone, in the bone, that would not be associated with dismembering or a reason to, for reasons afterwards to burn her. There are also no burn marks on these wounds. Here he is. Here he is. Hello. Hello. So, thank you for being here to watch this with me this morning. You get to be your special guest for once. Yes, but I think heavens that this is the day. This is the day. I, can tell you're laughing nervously, aren't you? Can you talk to us about what this means and your

thoughts about Tiley's pelvis? And, you know, it is odd. It's the one place that wasn't, that was still, most of her bones were fragments. And this is the one place that was still intact. I saw her pelvis on the screen last year. Well, as the forensic anthropologist described earlier, that the pelvic area happens to be an area that's protected by a lot of soft tissue. So it's harder to burn that area. and dispose of that area, I'm sure they wanted to. What it means to me is if you want to murder someone, one stab to the heart is usually sufficient. And so if you stab someone 50 times to the heart,

that's what we call overkill. And overkill is a psychological characteristic of the perpetrator. So in other words, when you look at a murder from a psychological standpoint, you're trying to figure, sometimes we're trying to figure out, what's the emotional component of this or what's the psychological component, right? And so here you have a situation where clearly

this seems to be overkill in the sense that you have all these stab wounds and these chopping wounds that are unnecessary. So from that, you can make inferences about what's going on psychologically. Whether it's Chad Daybell or whether it's Alex Cox,

I think the point is that there's this element of anger and this element of rage that's coming out. And for that reason, by the way, I think it's more likely to be Chad. That's actually committing these types of actions because Chad has this intense dislike for Tiley. And he, you know, Tiley is one of the few people that push back against Chad. Tiley's a person who questioned the narrative about Chad being a deity and a prophet. You know, Tiley questioned with her mother, Chad's authority.

And that is not a popular way to behave around Chad. So I think, I think Chad, I think potentially what you're seeing here is a lot of Chad Devils' rage being enacted physically on Tiley's body. It's possible that Alex could have participated in that as well. Well, there are multiple tools. And so it could be that if Alex participated in it, it was taking, which is what we've learned in court, it was taking the directive of Chad. Yeah.

But the multiple over and over, as you point out, the rage would most likely be Chad. So Chad could have given Alex directive, but the rage would be Chad, no matter what. Even Zulema testified, I want to remind people, Julema testified that after Alex killed Charles, they asked Zulama. They said, how was he after? And she said, I asked Alex, are you okay, are you okay? They weren't married at this time, but they were dating. And he's like, why wouldn't I be okay? Yeah, Charles was a zombie, so it was fine.

But there wasn't rage. And in the police interview, which John and I have assessed of Alex after killing Charles, there wasn't rage, it was just like nothing, it was expressionless, it was dead. So in order to have the rage for the overkill, there might be directive for Alex do something, but the rage would again be who. Yeah, that would be chat. So there's a certain level of vindictiveness going on. There's a certain level of revenge in this crime, I think,

in the sense that the way that behavior is being enacted suggests that he's getting back at her for whatever, for disobeying him, for not going along with the program, for telling Lori that he's a fraud, right? Whatever it is that he's telling Lori, I think this is payback. The pickax or the ice pick, whatever, like that, towards the end of the testimony today,

that specifically ties... The tool. The tool and the tool shed to Chad Daybell specifically. That's not to say we don't necessarily know who was using the knife, who was using whatever, the axe, we don't know who was using the tools. We don't know exactly what they were. But the one injury that he talked about towards the end

that's consistent with a pickax or a ice axe, or a ice pick, we know Chad had that. Right. And pick up, pickax ice pick. Right. They're different. They're different. Someone pointed that out.

But we saw one of those tools in Chad's garage and the other one was suggested to be one of the tools used on Tiley's body and go Google image them. They're not that different. And then the anthropologist admitted he's like, yeah, I can't really tell you the exact tool used, but something similar to this. And then this is the question. John, that people have been asking for a year ever since we learned this, this horrendous stuff in Lori's trial, but what was this? Was this an attack on Tiley's womanhood?

Talk to us about the specific target on Tiley's pelvis, which we also learned was the stab wounds came from her front? Can you share? Like, why? What is that? It's too vague to reach those types of conclusions, but I mean, I think...

Okay, can we say, in general? If I go to kind of the darkest possible places, I think I can see this as some types of sex crime, for sure. And, right. I mean, if you think about it, it's not hard to imagine that either Alex or Chad engaged in some type of... sex crime and murder at the same time simultaneously or together.

And so I don't, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibility. I think that the prosecution is trying to paint a picture here that's pretty broad so that the jury can fill in the gaps. And when you do that, that's not going to be good. Because the gaps here clearly to assault the pelvic region would be associated with a sex crime. Yeah. And do we know for sure or no.

But I mean, it would be consistent with the psychological characteristics of the perpetrators here. Correct. The psychological characteristics of the perpetrators here, it would make sense. And it wouldn't be Lori. It wouldn't be Lori. It would not be Lori. So let me ask you this. One thing I want to point out that I've talked about so often in lunch lives,

and people know this, is check. Chad's clear disdain for women. I feel like we've seen that over and over and over again in the trial. And I bring it up all the time to the point where I bring it up so much. I'm like, I'm not railing on men, disliking women. I'm railing on Chad. This isn't about an issue I have with men. This is an issue I have with Chad disliking women so much.

There's a disdain for women. And so would this match that sort of rage that you think, And we also know, let's remind you that Chad looked at Alice Gilbert and said, Tiley didn't like me. So if you can tie all these dots together and now we have a criminal psychologist here, would this pattern make sense? And then come over here because this is the... Yeah, for sure, because part of misogyny is objectification of women.

It's degrading women. And so he already, yeah, he already has. disdain for Tiley and if you combine that with his disdain for women in general, then the crime becomes more than his dislike of Tiley becomes more symbolic of harming women and specifically young women that are developing young women. It becomes symbolic of harming all women that can potentially harm him. Yeah, exactly. Right. And someone that wrote just, wrote this. It's a statement, but I'm going to ask it as a question, could Chad be getting revenge for women who rejected him previously? Yeah, right? That's where it becomes symbolic.

Yes. In the sense that this becomes about more than Tiley, this becomes an action meant to harm all women that he's dealt with that have rejected him, just women in general. Just as misogyny would be this overall hatred of women in general. And Tiley would just be an example of that, that he now has power over and the ability to harm in a really brutal way. There was one really important moment too. I want to point out, go Rob Wood. I'm celebrating Rob Wood today. So at one moment, Prior does what he always does.

It's his classic defense. He rewrites the narrative with his question. It drives me crazy. It drives me batty. The prosecution, the state is getting a lot better at calling him out for it. But thank you, Rob Wood, for calling him out today. not writing the narrative. The raccoon text came back up. Chad was burning limbs by the fire. Pryor gets up for cross. And at that moment, Pryor says, well, you know, he says he was burning

tree limbs. Right then, prior, objection, or right then, excuse me, Rob Wood, objection. He never said tree. He only said limbs. And I've brought this up before, but I actually think Chad Daybell was telling on himself and telling him the truth in that text. He was so literally, such a literal black and white guy. I think he thought to himself, I'm not lying to Tammy when I'm sending her this text about burning limbs before the coming storm. He didn't say tree limbs. He said limbs. He knew exactly what he was doing. And that was a moment for the prosecution. Go Rob Wood. The prosecution was excellent today. This was a hard, hard day. And I actually see their strategy too. I think that they're probably getting closer to resting. Obviously, every day they're getting closer to the prosecution, resting.

and to have this stuff at the end to just keep bringing it, you know, it's like the tortoise and the hair. They might be the tortoise, guys. And John Pryor was the hair. And he came out strong. And the prosecution, you guys know, I was like, what are they doing? Screaming, what are they doing? What are they doing?

You know what? They were being the tortoise and they had been bringing it. John, you can come back at. John's like, John's like, do I come, why not? You can jump in any time you want. Well, Tiley also becomes a bigger problem for the defense. in the sense that when Chad parades his kids in front of the jury, they potentially could pull on some heartstrings, right?

But they can't speak to Tammy. They can't speak to Tiley. And so Tiley, the problem that the defense has is they have to deal with three separate murders in this particular case, right? And so I think the defense, I think Pryor thinks he's got Tammy Daybell solved with the jury in terms of,

of bringing on the kids. But I think you see a lot of chatter between prior and Chad today. I think it's because they don't know how to solve this problem of Tiley's death and murder. Right. Right. And they can't explain that away. Right. So, and the way the prosecution is presenting this, which is amazing, is they're leaving,

they're painting this in broad strokes so that the jury is going to fill in the gaps with their imagination. And when you start doing that, this is not a good situation. for Chad. In other words, like everything we talked about, like the possibility of sex crimes and violence, and that's not stuff the juries take kindly to. Right, right. So I think they're doing well with that. Yeah, they are. Somebody asked if John thought that Tiley was maybe drugged at Yellowstone. That may be more a question for me. John profiles. I put the evidence together. I think it's very likely. I think that's very, very likely that she was. I want to point something else, too, that's really important. I have studied these pings. As you guys know, I have a video on some of the pings after Yellowstone, just a few of them. And I want to say this. This is important to say, I have seen no evidence that this happened in Lori's townhome. No evidence. I'll just say that I really don't think Alex was there a lot of the night. That's all I'll say. I mean, that's all I can say. But from what I've seen, this did not happen.

in my opinion and I think they've said as much if they had found DNA in Alex's or Lori's townhouse they would have told us that they found a lot of her DNA in the back of a car

they would have told us because I have not seen evidence that this happened and I don't know where it happened but I haven't seen evidence as to exactly where it's happened but what I have seen what I have eliminated is I don't think this happened

at Lori's townhouse. I just want to express that, and that's all I can really say. Somewhere between Yellowstone and Chad's backyard. Yeah, pick a place. Somewhere between Yellowstone and Chad's backyard. Pick one of those places.

So this is not this is not Lori. Someone was with JJ. There was rage, and it was sexual rage towards a woman. This is not Lori. I guess I just want to like make that clear. And I hope the entire world, I am so grateful that Chad Daybell's courtroom is televised that everybody can see this and everyone can see that

slugs sitting there and see that this is him. Thank you, John Pryor, for arguing that Chad Daybill's courtroom be televised. That was John Pryor. And I want to thank him for that. He did that. And you know what? I bet John Pryor was having a hard time today. We saw some interesting things. They sitting further apart. There was definitely a lot of chatter, though. John saw some chatter. And then as lunch broke, as lunch broke, there was some conversation between the two of them and John picked up on it and we actually were around and looked at it. There's, there's more activity between prior and Chad today than I've ever seen. There seems to be, I think there, I think there's some fear there. I think there's some uncertainty going on because this, this paints a portrait of Chad

that the jury's never seen. This, this, this. type of violence, this type of unnecessary gratuitous violence and the combination of potentially sex crimes with murder, this is, you know, this is serial killer stuff, right? Serial killer. And the serial killer is always your favorite, humble neighbor next door that everybody thinks is nice. This is serial killer stuff. I'm grateful that Ashland came up and showed that Tiley had a best friend, that she was cared

for and that she just disappeared, even if it was short and sweet. I'm grateful for the woman who had to read parts of Chad Debeau's love story and that she drove home what the storm was. And now we know because the opening statements for the prosecution was, as we know, sex, power and money. And if you want to talk about that too, I think they're going to seal the deal there. John will get into the religious aspects of that. But yeah, go ahead. Oh, just on the love story, just a final thought on the love text, which is that, I think the prosecution did a really good job.

I think their main point was to show that someone was such extreme views of relationships and someone capable of or portraying Lori in this case as a goddess is also capable of murdering for that goddess, right? That somebody that's so far out there and so extreme is more than capable of murdering for that person. And I think that's what they were trying to do and they did it. Yes. Yes.

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